So, now with those Loyalist dogs getting a shiny new 7th ed codex, alongside overall across the board price drops, even more Grav-spamming, buffs to their Chapter Tactics, decent to amazing Formation bonuses, etc...
What is it going to take for Chaos Marines to compete at this point? We don't have the massive Battle Bro's BFF club that Loyalists do - we're stuck with Daemonic allies and the new Daemonkin, the former of which is also beginning to show it's age.

Personally I'm hoping that this time around, we don't receive any new units at all. We've got pretty decent unit selection across the board overall. No, what we desperately need are more options in terms of weapon upgrades for our squads, and better pricing across our units!
Look at what just the Vanilla Marines have gotten in terms of 'new toys' for their squaddies/characters over the recent past;
- Grav pistol
- Grav gun
- Grav Cannon w/amp
- Heavy Flamer
- Sternguard ammo
- Relic Blade
- Eviscerator

It gets even worse when you take into account the other three books of the 'Big 4' Chapters, as BA's get Hand Flamers, Inferno pistols, Angelus Boltguns, Glaive Encarmine... DA's get Plasma cannon Termies, Plasma Talons, Corvus hammers, Blade of Caliban, Mace of Redemption... SW's get Frost Cannons...
We've been stuck with the exact same 3 special weapons, 4 heavy weapons, and basic close combat upgrades for going on 17 **** years!! Where the hell are all of our own unique toys that merge the power of the warp with arcane technology? What happened to all our Plasma cannons & Heavy flamers from the Heresy, when the former was actually much better understood at the time?!!

More than anything else, beyond pts drops, I don't think we can gain any ground in our overall competitiveness until we get some more options for kitting out squads... Melta spam in Rhinos just isn't enough these days.
And for an army that's all about being aggressive and getting into assaults, we're actually really, really terrible at even getting there! At the very least we need some new flavours of Land Raiders and an assault Rhino to get help get us stuck in.

Beyond that, I'd love to see Chosen actually be worth a damn, and not simply a bastardised Sternguard+Vanguard but -11 turd fest.



Of course, this is GW we're talking about, so the only thing I'd expect from a new CSM book is;
1. Army-wide nerfs & pts-hikes across the board.
2. No new models
3. They decide that Formationhammer is no more and thus we get 0 Formations, no Decurion, but a return to the days of 0-'X' options everywhere, because... "reasons"

it seems very likely they are going the daemonkin treatment. and they have been mirroring their fantasy equivalents fairly closely, especially evident with daemons. i'd expect more of that to continue. (which would be awesome if chaos lords would translate across to 40k!)
i'd imagine the way the game works, that khorne will probably still end up being the weakest one when all is said and done, which would not necessarily be a bad thing, khorne daemonkin is certainly not a bad army, and fun to play.

I"ve seen plenty of ideas and wishlists on this very thing since... well, since the codex came out. And most of them all have excellent points and quickfixes that would help so much. So I won't rehash them here.

So what do I think would help CSM out? Options. Some good ol' Warp-loving flavor in the options available. The last codex brought in a good handful of new units... that all do one thing. Cultist can take pistols or guns, done. Drakes have a cannon or flamer, done. The two new HQs are such a niche build they can't compete to the customization of the Lord. The 'fiends have the same issue. And of course, the crowd favorites of Warp Talons and Mutilators. Even the old units are the same one-trick ponies as always: Rhinos, Land Raiders, Possessed, and so on. Chosen were neutered to just "CSM+extra specials."

Throw in some options for once. Different variants and loadouts for all of them, greater access to restricted wargear for the HQ. Have the Marks do something beyond the dull stat boosts we have now (bonus points if it means all the marks are equally viable). Maybe s'more daemonic weapons? Perhaps some Warp-inspired weapon profiles? (Bilespewers for some flamers/sorcery-infused ammunition/a heavy bolter that shoots skulls/anything!)?

Just... make the codex come alive. Will it be competitive? Oh, good lord, no possible way of knowing. Once you toss in a Decurian and some formations it'll be good enough, I'm sure. But add the flavor to it and it will be a damn blast, I'm sure.

I definitely agree on the options idea, especially when they're warp-flavored and properly costed. I'm tired of feeling like SM's bastard evil half brother who spends his time sniveling in corners so the fanboys can feel like special snowflakes when they wreck our inferior forces with shiny toys. The current codex feels so half hearted.

Give Havocs a better choice of weapons, maybe add some more options to our land raiders, and give my Daemon Prince EW back!

I think that if they want to change they need to overcome their limitations that gw has stuffed on them ages ago. Back when cc mattered the chaos marines were a less mobile but more magically and cc gifted alternative to regular marines.

Now that the game has shifted away from that and flyers got wrestled into balance the codex is without many legs to stand on. And it's time they remove their old barriers and erect new ones.

I'd probably start by giving them the razorback, and update the rhino kit to include the bits for limited razorback access. Maybe change the stock weapon to something else like a twin linked heavy flamer or something. This would help them out a ton., more transport options means more mobility tools.

We can then start discussing forge fiends. These are probably the most underwhelming unit they've got and some statline upgrades would go a long way to making the forge and mauler more accessible and useful.

Finally price dropping the defiler, his big guns are needed and he is actuallyy pretty good at dakka.

Chosen I feel should have been more like Wolf Guard with a massive amount of variety in their options for every model in the unit and not just 5. Also, I'd like them to have jump packs as an option again and perhaps allow them the option of taking bikes. Also, with this, Draznicht's Ravagers wouldn't just be an okay choice (a good choice currently with plasma), but an amazing choice.

I'd like like to be able to upgrade Possessed outside of just marks. Like being able to purchase wings for them or something.

I think that regular Chaos Space Marines... heck, perhaps the entire codex, could benefit from Non-god specific Icons allowing players to tailor - especially Chaos Space Marines - units for a wider variety of tasks and potentially allow mono god lists to be more viable.

Either variants or upgrades for Chaos vehicles so that their not just spiky versions of their loyalist variants. I mean they no longer adhere to the strict doctrines of the Imperium or AdMech, How about some Ectoplasma Land Raiders? Hades or Reaper Autocannon Predators? Put a turret on the Land Raider for MOAR DAKKA?

And then personal things I'd love to see: Hellbrute HQ option; Mutilators merged with Warp Talons to create fast moving melee monsters straight out of nightmares, kind of what I imagined the Dornian Heresy Raven Guard to be; An option to opt out of the Chaos Boon table...

And of course, Legion Tactics.

IMHO, the only thing that's actively holding back the Dark Apostle from being a staple contender right alongside the Chaos Lord, is how for some stupid reason, Chaos Chaplains suddenly & very convienently "forget" how to ride a bike/use a jump pack, unlike the Loyalist ones.

Dumbest thing right there in our codex...

Give the Apostle the ability to take a bike/steed/jump pack, and give the Warpsmith the option for a bike. But then, I guess "because... Chaos!lolz", we're the only army that's not allowed to build a deathstar unit.

I'd like to see Warpsmiths, Apostles and Sorcerors be optional upgrades to the basic Lord character and T6 on Daemon Princes because everyone seems to get T6 FMC these days.

Daemon Engines become MC.
Open Topped or Assault Rhinos whether through upgrade or a new variant.
Chaos variant Land Raider which costs less and functions almost solely as a transport.
God themed Formations with some of these get X free or +X stat buffs (Not a fan of them but once the cat is out of the bag...)

New plastic kits that both retire the ancient ones and add Heresy era weapons diversifying our horrible options.

Something to help the marines themselves return to the table. New/more weapons per squad would be a start. Either a points drop or a large morale buff. If they want to keep things Character centric perhaps as long as they have a character they kill a squad member and auto rally when caught/rallying.

Simplify, buff and theme the Boon table. If we have to challenge/never decline make it worth our while if we kill someone. God themed rewards for kills would be most welcome.

More daemonic influences in our vehicle upgrades and less "It's a Space Marine Vindicator with spikes"

I wouldn't mind seeing cultists getting access to scout or infiltrate, something to give them some value compared to guard.

Also a +1 to the perils table, or a separate chaod version of it. Maybe with bigger boons, but with worse potential results.

Demonic possession on vehicles needs to actually do more than it does now, perhaps even add a hull point.

Chaos terminators need to stop sucking horribly. Things like reliable deep strike, or even being able to charge from deep strike would be great.

Not sucky chaos psychic powers.

The list goes on and on.

To bounce off of Eldarain, with challenges and boons...

What about seriously buffing up the Aspiring Champions? These are supposed to be the cutthroat eon-old soldiers who are just waiting for the right moment to step in and overtake/overthrow the reigning Lord and make the warband their own. They're supposed to be on the cusp of greatness and glory all in their own name above all others.

Instead they are no different than the rank-and-file, plus a point of leadership and an extra attack. And wargear choices they can't fully utilize because they're just as weak. Woo.

Seriously, turn them into mini-Lords. Or mini-Sorcerers if you want. Make them a real and serious threat to anyone whom they challenge. Now you've got a horde of 10 or 20 led by a beefed-up Champion, using the squad as ablative wounds so he can storm forward and prove his own glory in battle, though still not as glorious as the Lord.

Well, I don't exactly play CSM anymore, but in my time playing CSM and my current venture into the land of KDK I can tell you many of our units are just plain terrible.

Buffs:

All codexes- Khorne Berzerkers get chain-axes for free (why in Khorne's name don't they come stock with these?), also, point cost goes down to 17-15ppm

KDK exclusive- Land Raider: Why don't these things have dirge casters? Give em back!

All codexes- More abilities showing the true levels these marines have fallen to, I'm talking about Khorne Berzerkers having a berzerk rule that hurts them, but makes them better in combat, or Rubric Marines able to get up if their champion casts a spell of rejuvenation on them (or something like that)

CSM- Rubric Marines cost a little bit less, also Tzeentch magic table needs to stop being terrible.

Main rule change- Fear needs to actually be worth jack squat. I have an idea where fear if failed makes you take a ld test and if failed you run.

Summoning/KDK- Blood Crushers become toughness 5.

Nerfs:

Make heldrakes a tad bit more expensive, but only a tad bit.

Blood Crushers have to take a strength test every turn and if they fail they immediately charge the closest unit, they lost control!

I think, given the breadth of fluff that a CSM force can encompass, it's going to be difficult to please everyone, but that's not to say we can't try!

Here's an idea I had that might make things a bit more defined, and generate some more units from the same products (and maybe an extra weapons sprue).

Have a tier system for the CSM, I.e ranging from newly turned astartes- to the original legions of traitors from the heresy. Each could have layers of upgrades that those on each end of the spectrum don't have access to. For example the newbies might be able to have grav guns, but not access to marks (losing say, atsknf), whereas the old school CSM could have marks, banners, mutations, arcane weapons (volkite? Etc) and stuff like fearless, or leadership buffs like adamantium will for points and so on. It makes the player choose between new kit vs old, adding some more character but with a reasonable trade off.

The same could easily apply across vehicles and other kit.

Just a thought.

Chaos and Orks are ALWAYS going to be the antagonists and will always have a handicap to let the good guys win.

Chaos Marines get the downsides of regular marines, PLUS additional penalties. This will never go away.

It is supposed to be an extremely bad day when Chaos actually wins. Same for Orks.
.

I would love for CSM to get more options! Here is what I would like to see

- Across the board point adjustments.
- LEGION TACTICS!!! (Even if they're similar to loyalist tactics)
- Cult Marines as troops without taking a Lord/Sorcerer/Character tax.
- Buffs to units that desperately need them (Mutilators, Possessed, Forgefiends, etc)
- Add Razorbacks, Drop Pods, and Land Raider variants.
- Remove the 'must challenge all the time' rule
- Better psychic powers
- More weapon options



Not rules related, but I really want to see them update the mass majority of the models. So many of them are terribly old and show it. I'm also very afraid that with these Daemonkin books that they'll remove all of the god specific units from the core codex. So if I want to run Berserkers I'll have to have an ally detachment.

Someone made a series of Legion Decurions here a while ago. I'm going to say it needs all of those. Many many options with specific buffs and endless synergy.

Master of Desception becoming straight 3 infantry units instead of d3. This alone would make infiltrating mass csm even more frightening and reliable.
Defilers need a change. But they won't get it cause it's an old model that many players allready have.

That GW stop making Deamon Engines weaker then Machines with a Dead Marine in it...

Deamonic Possession should add +1 to WS BS and Init +Deamon and be identical to PotMS, even if it would cost 25-30pts, but at least it would be worth it...

Fuxking tired of having CC specialist machines that are WS and Init3...

New types of weapons that Chaos only would use, deamonic ammos, Warp guns, Hell shells whatever, but something unique to Chaos.

Change the Icon of Despair and Icon of Change rules, take off the Marks limitations, it will help tailor your units to a specific role even better.

Give Zerkers back their second base attack?..., and options for power weapons/eviscerators in the squad, because thats one CC unit right there where there is no special CCW options...

Also make it that the Bloodthirster is Str 8 again like it used to, before they smoked something fishy at GW and made the Avator of the God of Death and War has strong as a Spawn...

Chaos Shields for Termies that would give them a 4++ Deamonic save, each time you save a wound the ennemy unit in BtB gets 1d3 Str5 AP4 blind/commotion hits.

Also if GW is mirroring the Chaos from battle, then they shuld mirror the good things, CHosen should then be like Chosens in Battle, WS5, with better armors..., if not then leave Battle the feth alone.

A Detachement/formation thing with Zerkers/khorne marked units where they can Run+assault in the same turn.

If eldars can run+shoot, and they are Shooting specialists, then i don't see why CC specialists could run+assault, was pretty dissapointed that there was no Blood Tith like this in the KDK book.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:

Make heldrakes a tad bit more expensive, but only a tad bit.

Why? They're nowhere near what they used to be. Baleflamer is scary against MEQ, hades gun is just awful. Consider the Vendetta costs the same in points.

More ideas, now that I've thought about it: better Psychic powers, give Tzeentch something better as standard (given that Tzeentch is all about magic).
More variety in our tanks. Space Marines have 4 variants of Land Raider just from Games Workshop, 2 types of Rhino, Razorbacks, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Predators, Stalkers and Hunters. You mean to say that in 10,000 years, nobody in the traitor legions stuck an AA gun on any of the tanks? No hellfire warp cannon type thing mounted on a daemonically possessed Vindicator? No dedicated Assault transport that doesn't have a serious case of Schizophrenia (looking at you, LR)?
Improve Daemonic Possession. 20pts to ignore Shaken and Stunned is fine. That, the reduction in WS, BS, and the potential to eat your passengers? feth off.

I think the daemon engines should become more varied with stats being different across the different engines geared towards what they're meant for... I'd say the daemon engines should also get something to reflect the temperament of the bound daemon and its nature as a way of introducing some abilities to the engines resulting in things like granting skyfire to a forgefiend or a double cannon shot at lowered BS from a defiler... Quirky variation.

I think the Cult Marines need better rules and stats that represent them as Elite units... If joining the ruinous powers doesn't get you anything anywhere near as good as some elite Loyalist ammo no one would waste their time with chaos gods. If not that, then simply having Elite forms of the Cult Marines.

Bring back Doomrider... Hehe

Oh, yes. Doomrider FTW. Or at least give a biker lord the options necessary to create Doomrider.

I think it'd be cool if the weapons GW adds to sell "the new hotness" were available on the other vehicles in the armoury as upgrades. Baleflamer sponsons on Land Raider for example (probably without torrent due to it being ground based application).

Echoing what others have said it's extremely stupid that Daemons become such CC kittens when they're put in an armoured shell.

I'd REALLY like some love being thrown Undivideds way. We have Khorne Bezerkertank as a superheavy, Khorne (and soon Tzeentch apparenly) DaemonMarines, Codex: NurgleDrakes, etc. I'd love an Undivided mark, Undivided Daemon Princes (Be'Lakor and 2 Primarchs set a precedent that they do exist).

Chaos Lords should not be spikey SM captains. Rookie CM from some thinblood M39 founding is a straight upgrade to a HH veteran who somehow manages to control an army of Traitors.

I could go on, that's probably enough for now.

Nothing. There's nothing that can be done. No matter what you do, CSM players will complain about it. Every single time. Always have. Always will.

-Less slowed dinobots and less dinobots.
-More useful marine troops.
-Legion rules
-Cult terminators
-An end to the stupid mark system, you either are or you are not, none of this silly half in stuff.
-Heresy era vehicles

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Someone made a series of Legion Decurions here a while ago. I'm going to say it needs all of those. Many many options with specific buffs and endless synergy.

that would be this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/642216.page **that was before we got space marines, admech and eldar, I would make much more substantial changes If I did them now. I didn't expect them to make such bold changes as free stuff and stat buffs back then.**
Far from perfect but I think I can say safely say that even relatively minor changes can do a lot to reinforce the idea that your playing any given legion over another, Which at least to me has quite the impact. So short of getting actual legion codices, I'd have to say some form of legion tactics, though maybe more in the vein of Thousand Sons, in that would be unit unlocks vs army buffs. I like the idea of your warlord mattering, so the whole warlord unlock thing could be adapted to that.

Otherwise a complete redesign pretty much. I don't buy the whole, oh 10000 years you know...all out stuff is lost shtick. They make raids for looting STC patterns and the dark mechanicus have been constantly developing new stuff that should put any impieral equivalent to shame. They know the same technqiues but also use magic in addition. And as has been said, if daemons are so badass, then how come everything with a daemon in it becomes less potent. I would understand if it adds a risk of losing control or hurting your own guys like the nom-mechanic though. Forge World daemon engines do this much better than the GW variants.

But chaos really needs more hades auto cannons and ectoplasma stuff. Many marines have fused with they heresy era weapons, so we should be seeing heresy era tech with a chaos twist... like all the rad and chem stuff on deathguard would be some kinda nurglite bioweapon stuff by now but no less potent for it.

I also would like to see more stuff like the xana lineage flyers. Potent stuff that the imperium wouldn't touch. Of course they could keep that kinda stuff for a dark mech codex too. That could be some kinda allied dex in the vein of inquisition, meant to to support csm.

Also ,obvious, a whole bunch of formations that help with the legions and reinforce the idea that these are NOT astartes marines.
And More defiling please. Like master of ordnace thing for rengeades, where you bomb your own guys. If any Codex should be able to do that , then these guys.(unless they have plans to make traitor guard I guess) Have chem weapons affect the terrain and such.
They need their own proper psychic disciplines, none of this 3 power bs. Decent soulblaze effects, stuff that creates and enhances dangerous terrain tests and so on.

And OMG, give them decent flipping deepstrike capacity already. Their masters basically ARE the warp for pete's sake. They live IN the warp.... you'd think they know how to manipulate that gak in their favour.

Daemon weapons for all please. As in all gods.
And fleshmetal as upgrades -_-. Give us back our chaos armour, it's in the fluff and we had it before.... Basically, give us back all the good ideas that GW removed for god knows what reason.
And last but not least, unique units. Like Berzerkers on juggernauts.

 Melissia wrote:
Nothing. There's nothing that can be done. No matter what you do, CSM players will complain about it. Every single time. Always have. Always will.

The same sentiment could be said about any codex.

Mathematically it is a rather strong indication however that the Chaos codexs are sub par in many instances.

And based on dakka polls the traitors legions are at least equal to the loyal ones. Therefore it would be in gws best interest to service this codex far more than it does because it is a relatively low engaged consumer base.

One big thing that's peeved me off about the current Chaos books, (Marines & Daemons), is how the God specific lores have been treated as barely an afterthought with maybe 2-3 actual 'good' powers across all three lores...

Imagine if instead, both Marines & Daemons shared the same spell lores, (ala WoC/DoC in Fantasy), and instead we got powers like;
Lore of Tzeentch:
Primaris: Flickering Fire of Tzeentch WC1-3
Witchfire S5/ap4/Assault 2D6+2 -OR- S4/ap4/Assault 3D6+3 -OR- S3/ap4/Assault 4D6+4

1. Treason of Tzeentch WC1
24"/Malediction.
Target unit must use the lowest Ld value in the unit for all moral, pinning & leadership tests.

2. Pink Fire of Tzeentch WC1
Witchfire Template/SD6/ap4/Assault 1 Torrent

3. Bolt of Change WC1
24"/Beam SD6+4/ap1/Assault 1

4. Glean Magic WC2
18"/Malediction.
Select a single enemy psyker within range. Both the caster & target roll a D6 + Ld. If the caster's roll is higher, the target immediately suffers a single S3 hit with no armour or cover saves and forgets a randomly determined psychic power. The caster may then attempt to use this power once, after which, the stolen power is destroyed.

5. Tzeentch's Firestorm WC2
Nova/9"/SD3+1/ap5/Assault 2D6+2

6. Infernal Gateway WC2
18"/Witchfire/S2D6*/ap2/Assault 1 Blast
If an 11 or 12 is rolled when determining strength, the shot counts as S10 and uses the Large Blast template.


Lore of Slaanesh:
Primaris: Lash of Slaanesh WC1
18"/Beam S5/ap-/Rending, Ignores Cover

1. Acquiescence WC1
24"/Malediction
Target unit much pass a Ld test each time it wishes to move, shoot, fire Overwatch or assault. If the test is failed, the action is lost. Vehicles count as Ld10.

2. Pavane of Slaanesh WC1
18"/Focused Witchfire.
The target model must pass a Ld test on its own Leadership. If the test is failed, the model suffers a single wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If a unit suffers any wounds, it must immediately take a Pinning test.

3. Hysterical Frenzy WC2
18"/Blessing OR 18"/Malediction
The target unit gains the Rage & Furious Charge USR's and *must* attempt to assault if an enemy unit is within range at the beginning of their Assault phase. In addition, each time the target unit takes any actions, (moving, shooting, assault, etc...), it immediately suffers D6 S4 hits with the Rending rule due to their uncontrolled frenzy.

4. Slicing Shards WC2
24"/Witchfire/*special
The target unit immediately suffers D6/S4/ap- hits with the Rending rule. The unit must then immediately take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, the unit suffers an additional D6/S4 Rending hits. Keep taking Toughness tests until the unit passes or is destroyed.

5. Phantasmagoria WC1
24"/Malediction
The target unit must roll an additional D6 whenever taking any form of Ld test, and discard the lowest roll from the result.

6. Cacophonic Choir WC3
6"/Nova *special
All units within range of the power immediately take a Ld test on 3D6. For every point the test is failed by, the unit suffers a wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. Any unit suffering at least one wound must immediately test for Pinning and will strike at -5I during the next Assault phase.


Lore of Nurgle:
Primaris: Stream of Corruption WC1
Witchfire Template/*Special
All models touched by the template must immediately pass a Toughness test, or suffer 1 wound with no armour saves allowed. Models with the Daemon of Nurgle or Mark of Nurgle are immune - they find it entirely refreshing!

1. Miasma of Pestilence WC1
12"/Blessing
Enemy units in base contact with the target unit reduce their WS & Initiative by -1 (to a minimum of 1).

2. Blades of Putrification WC1
6"/Blessing
The target unit's close combat attacks gain the Poisoned(4+) special rule. If the target unit already has the Poisoned(4+) special rule, then their Poisoned attacks are improved by +1. (ie: Poisoned(4+) becomes Poisoned(3+))

3. Curse of the Leper WC2
12" Blessing OR 12" Malediction
If cast on a friendly unit, Curse of the Leper is a Blessing that increases the target's Toughness by +1. If cast on an enemy unit, Curse of the Leper is a Malediction which reduces the target's Toughness by -1. This can effect the target's Instant Death threshold.

4. Rancid Visitations WC2
18"/Focused Witchfire/*Special
The target must immediately pass a Toughness test or suffer a wound with no Armour or Cover saves allowed. If this test is failed, the target unit must immediately take another Toughness test. Keep taking Toughness tests until the target unit passes, or else is destroyed.

5. Fleshy Abundance WC2
12"/Blessing
The target unit gains the Feel No Pain(5+) rule. If the target already has Feel No Pain, then their save is improved by +1 to a maximum of 3+

6. Plague Wind WC3
7"/Nova/*Special
All units within range must immediately take D6 Toughness tests. Any models that fail will suffer an automatic wound with no Armour or Cover saves allowed.


Now those would be well worth using over simply taking the currently no-brainer lores of Telepathy and/or Divination!

Wish listing aside, the only things CSM actually *need* to be decent are points drops and more delivery options.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Wish listing aside, the only things CSM actually *need* to be decent are points drops and more delivery options.

...And some unique toys of our own, rather than just the crappiest sections of the Loyalist's armoury.

It'd be cool if they gave CSM units Volkite weapons.

It would be something different, anyways.

Assualt Rhinos would be good to, seeing as how so much of the dandies CSM are given are assault oriented.

Yes all this assault and only one land raider varient to choose from

MarsNZ wrote:

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:

Make heldrakes a tad bit more expensive, but only a tad bit.

Why? They're nowhere near what they used to be. Baleflamer is scary against MEQ, hades gun is just awful. Consider the Vendetta costs the same in points.

Well considering that we are actually considering giving ourselves "different" war gear than the loyalists we need something to silence their crying so GW doesn't immediately give them "sanctified daemon bolters" has all of the CSM stuff, but is master-crafted!

More Changes:

Chosen are BS or WS 5 (You decide before battle) DOES NOT COST EXTRA POINTS!

Possessed are tough 5 NO POINTS INCREASE!

All Chaos vehicles can buy FNP and a daemon-save

Cultists can purchase suicide bombs

Cultists can purchase cheap heavy weapons

Chaos Boon table put back into KDK

Berzerkers have HOW on the roll of an 8 to charge

Berzerkers get FNP through the purchase of "Butchers nails" any berzerker squad may buy this even KDK berzerkers and if you say that breaks the fluff look at the book and read the lore

Plague marines get shrouded

Thousand Sons get an ability in which if they kill an enemy squad or kill an enemy character they get a new psychic power to the maximum of 3 total

Noise Marines cause -1 WS and -1 BS of all non MOS models in a 12 in radius. So much drugs in the air it makes everyone delusional

Can't stress this enough... Berzerkers get free chain axes

Noise marine's sonic blasters can purchase the pure pain special rule that causes all models within a 6in radius of the noise marines when firing doom sirens to have -2 leadership

Still confused why KDK doesn't have dirge casters? Anyone?

Giving marks to vehicles has a different chart now

MOS: d3 extra attacks in melee + old thing

MOT: +5 invul

MOK: All ram damage is +2 strength or for walkers HOW is +2 strength + old thing

MON: Shrouded and all armor sides are +1 to a maximum of 14, so no armor 15 LRs

We can now shoot into combat that has only cultists and enemy troops in it. Roll a d6 on the roll of 1-3 cultist hit on the roll of 4-6 enemy hit.

All squads may purchase a mutation for the whole squad, but champion may still buy mutations for cheaper for himself.

More cultist options, please, I want cultist armies to be a thing.

Overall game changes: 2+ invuls no longer exist NO EXCEPTIONS!

Ap 2/1 is extremely rare

Armor saves are the only save that can be re-rolled NO EXCEPTIONS!

2+ armor saves confer SAP to the model

Ramming becomes more dangerous for both models involved

I would like to see a greater variety of low-tech weaponry added. There's no reason CSM can't get their hands on heavy stubbers, grenade launchers, mortars, chimeras, sentinels and so on. Imperial marines aren't going to use those because it's against the codex but if you don't follow that thing why not steal or copy items that even the Imperium can produce and maintain in enormous quantities?

So, regular SM get high-tech goodies while CSM have to improvise and replace broken weaponry with non-standard designs. The overall feeling I would like to get across is that SM have strictly defined units and vehicle variants while CSM just have marines that band together broadly according to how they like to fight and fit whatever vehicles they have with the guns they can get their hands on.

After a couple of thousands of years of using their twin bolters, it would be fairly natural for a terminator to consider using a heavy stubber instead when their ordinary weaponry breaks down. Longer range and less maintenance required. Ammo is likely much easier to make, too. Havocs would love to replace most of the squad's bolters with them, too, to say nothing of suiting up with grenade launchers. They don't match up well with actual heavy weaponry but sheer numbers should outweigh that concern. Refitting your tank with twin-linked plasma guns because your lascannon sponsons finally melted down and that was the hardest-hitting available energy weapon you could rig into the existing power supply also makes sense.


I wouldn't even mind if the base weapons of CSM were downgraded to shotguns, autoguns and autopistols with bolt weaponry as upgrade options if it succeeded in showing that they used often inferior equipment but had acquired superior skill. And if it was balanced points-wise to use the weaker guns as well as also worth the points to buy bolters.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Wish listing aside, the only things CSM actually *need* to be decent are points drops and more delivery options.

...And some unique toys of our own, rather than just the crappiest sections of the Loyalist's armoury.

You mean like the Torrent Flamer flyer (Heldrake), the S8 many shot Dreadnought (Forgefiend), the Beast tarpits (Spawn), Blight Grenades, Dirge Casters and so on? CSM has plenty of unique toys, but delivery and points drops are needed. And synergy with these toys.

Of course I don't think GW is going to do any powerarmour focused codex any more. Let's assume we get 4 daemonkin codexes. Yes they have marines and all, but they're all basicalyl mindless zealots. All they care about is summoning their greater daemons. They probably won't all be quite as nutty as the khorne guys but still. They don't have an awful lot of personality to me. The're little more than pawns here.

The other rumour was lost and the damned, which are cool and all, but they're hardly putting the focus on the marines either. So I'm thinking they're letting forge world handle the legions as it looks like the traitors may be getting more corrupted lists. And then if you want renegade marines you may as well take an astartes codex with alternative models, it's probably closer to the fluff anyway. Though they may have a renegade astares codex somewhere way way down the road imho.

Of course that's just my personal impression and pure speculation.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Possessed are tough 5 NO POINTS INCREASE!

Or better yet, just ditch them and throw them into the gutter where they should have been all along.

Instead, add Gal Vorbak.

FW understands what Possessed should be, both in terms of models and in terms of rules.

Seriously, the GW Possessed are bad, models and tabletop ability both.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Possessed are tough 5 NO POINTS INCREASE!

Or better yet, just ditch them and throw them into the gutter where they should have been all along.

Instead, add Gal Vorbak.

FW understands what Possessed should be, both in terms of models and in terms of rules.

Seriously, the GW Possessed are bad, models and tabletop ability both.

I actually believe the models are gorgeous! That's why I want to save em.

I mean.... Tastes vary, but you are saying that this



is better than this

I will be REALLY annoyed if they got rid of deamon weapons. They are one of the few crutches the dex has.

They already did for khorne daemonkin lol

I think that daemon weapons have to stay in a Chaos book. Otherwise it just isn't proper. Possessed weapons that can rebel against you is just so flavourful.

They do it all the time with chaos, as far as the character armoury goes we basically get a completely new one each codex...least as far as the interesting items go. Unique weapons come and go, special armour comes and goes. Icons change quite a bit too. Regardless of whether or not the change was needed

Roknar wrote:
They already did for khorne daemonkin lol

Well...technically the Kinder surprise axe and the goredrinker are kinda Deamon weapons, but yeah they could use the extra D6 attacks.

i also feel that Deamon weapons should be more then just "extra D6 Attacks", they all should have Fleshbane and Armor bane, or that they ignore FnP/RP rolls, i mean nearly all of them can rend reality and gak...

Also yeah just give straigth Rending to Possesed as some wargear back, i mean you see plenty of arts and stuff where possesed shoots Bolt pistols or other things from their arms/eyes/mouths and yet they don"t have any ranged weapon/attack.

Maybe something like "Warp infused ammunition; be it laser from their eyes, green fog from their mouth, or an oversized bolt weapon organicaly fused, the ranged attacks of possesed are has unusual has their bodies", they get a range 18, assault 2 Str6 AP4 laceration.

Hopefully tzeentch daemon kin will put a twist on possessed, then maybe we can get bile spewing nurgle possessed eventually.

And yea, if daemon weapons are alluring enough to start a black crusade over, then they should probably be pretty nasty. So if it's not extra d6 they would have to get something equally amazing. Like maybe extra d6 warp charges for tzeentch now that that's a thing. The black mace I for example I think is nice enough as it is. Despite being ap4. Not having d6 would probably only work if you get god specific mechanics like the bloodtithes though.

I don't think they all need fleshbane n d6 but, khorne and/or slaanesh should definitely get at least one +d6 version. And preferably not unwieldy like goredrinker.

 Melissia wrote:
Nothing. There's nothing that can be done. No matter what you do, CSM players will complain about it. Every single time. Always have. Always will.

The irony here is this poster plays SoB.

Access to 2+ and EW
Points drops on cult troops
Crazy special weapon numbers in chaos marine squads. Piss on the codex Astartes.
Redone boom table (awesome idea, bad implementation)
Some kind of quasi ATSKNF that still lets them be swept but offers other bonuses
Good possessed models and rules
Not touching oblits except to bring them in line pts wise with cents
Chaos ass drop pods

MarsNZ wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Nothing. There's nothing that can be done. No matter what you do, CSM players will complain about it. Every single time. Always have. Always will.

The irony here is this poster plays SoB.

And I only need one word to refute the idea that this is somehow ironic: "Plastics".

Roknar wrote:
Of course I don't think GW is going to do any powerarmour focused codex any more. Let's assume we get 4 daemonkin codexes. Yes they have marines and all, but they're all basicalyl mindless zealots. All they care about is summoning their greater daemons. They probably won't all be quite as nutty as the khorne guys but still. They don't have an awful lot of personality to me. The're little more than pawns here.

The other rumour was lost and the damned, which are cool and all, but they're hardly putting the focus on the marines either. So I'm thinking they're letting forge world handle the legions as it looks like the traitors may be getting more corrupted lists. And then if you want renegade marines you may as well take an astartes codex with alternative models, it's probably closer to the fluff anyway. Though they may have a renegade astares codex somewhere way way down the road imho.

Of course that's just my personal impression and pure speculation.

I think there is something to be said for this. In every way Daemons were the greatest single element that distinguished Chaos marines form Loyalist marines, and that distinctiveness was severely hurt by their removal. I agree I think GW maybe holding back until FW is done with HH, but I also think its partially GW's general laziness when it comes to Chaos and that its simply so easy to give large portions of chaos players what they want by doing all the daemonkin codices.

 Melissia wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Nothing. There's nothing that can be done. No matter what you do, CSM players will complain about it. Every single time. Always have. Always will.

The irony here is this poster plays SoB.

And I only need one word to refute the idea that this is somehow ironic: "Plastics".

"My complaints are more valid than yours, I'll scream it over and over in every thread I can till you understand how victimised I am"

I'm willing to bet you agree with other professional victims such as Anita Sarkeesian.

I really like the idea of unit leaders being mini lords.

Eldar already have that with the aspect warriors, why not chaos too?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I mean.... Tastes vary, but you are saying that this

Spoiler:

is better than this

Spoiler:

Both look awesome I was just saying I love the possessed model not that I hate the FW one.

Rosebuddy wrote:
I would like to see a greater variety of low-tech weaponry added. There's no reason CSM can't get their hands on heavy stubbers, grenade launchers, mortars, chimeras, sentinels and so on. Imperial marines aren't going to use those because it's against the codex but if you don't follow that thing why not steal or copy items that even the Imperium can produce and maintain in enormous quantities?

So, regular SM get high-tech goodies while CSM have to improvise and replace broken weaponry with non-standard designs. The overall feeling I would like to get across is that SM have strictly defined units and vehicle variants while CSM just have marines that band together broadly according to how they like to fight and fit whatever vehicles they have with the guns they can get their hands on.

After a couple of thousands of years of using their twin bolters, it would be fairly natural for a terminator to consider using a heavy stubber instead when their ordinary weaponry breaks down. Longer range and less maintenance required. Ammo is likely much easier to make, too. Havocs would love to replace most of the squad's bolters with them, too, to say nothing of suiting up with grenade launchers. They don't match up well with actual heavy weaponry but sheer numbers should outweigh that concern. Refitting your tank with twin-linked plasma guns because your lascannon sponsons finally melted down and that was the hardest-hitting available energy weapon you could rig into the existing power supply also makes sense.


I wouldn't even mind if the base weapons of CSM were downgraded to shotguns, autoguns and autopistols with bolt weaponry as upgrade options if it succeeded in showing that they used often inferior equipment but had acquired superior skill. And if it was balanced points-wise to use the weaker guns as well as also worth the points to buy bolters.

I think this is fascinating. Everyone should be talking about this. It would look really good, it would take some of the samey-ness out of the MEq game, it would allow basement level points on some units, and it would allow ludicrous buffs in some areas. If all the old options are still available, as upgrades, models wouldn't be obsolete. It's tremendous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Konrax wrote:
I really like the idea of unit leaders being mini lords.

Eldar already have that with the aspect warriors, why not chaos too?

Yes, like this. If your troops all start with autoguns, it's not weird to have a ws5, two wounds,ld10 model with hatred leading every single unit.

The low tech suggestion, specially regarding some heavy stubbers and grenade launchers, is really spot on. Some options for warp or even daemonically enhanced ammo could be added as well (i.e frag grenades infused with some nasty, nasty secondary effects).

For a - supposedly - assault-oriented marine army, an option to make rhinos assault vehicles also seems mandatory (i.e. scrap the combi-bolter and the two shooting slots plus pay 10 points and you get assault vehicle). However seeing how Khorne Daemonkin didn't get that, it's unlikely vanilla CSM will get it either.

CSM also need a decent vanilla anti-air option without needing to rely on allies. Some way to give prescience (or similar) to autocannon havocs could be enough, I guess.

3.5-like legion rules back could also be cool, but I know it won't happen. If anything, they'll make the main codex even duller and then prepare a flood of mini-codeci or supplements.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
I would like to see a greater variety of low-tech weaponry added. There's no reason CSM can't get their hands on heavy stubbers, grenade launchers, mortars, chimeras, sentinels and so on. Imperial marines aren't going to use those because it's against the codex but if you don't follow that thing why not steal or copy items that even the Imperium can produce and maintain in enormous quantities?

So, regular SM get high-tech goodies while CSM have to improvise and replace broken weaponry with non-standard designs. The overall feeling I would like to get across is that SM have strictly defined units and vehicle variants while CSM just have marines that band together broadly according to how they like to fight and fit whatever vehicles they have with the guns they can get their hands on.

After a couple of thousands of years of using their twin bolters, it would be fairly natural for a terminator to consider using a heavy stubber instead when their ordinary weaponry breaks down. Longer range and less maintenance required. Ammo is likely much easier to make, too. Havocs would love to replace most of the squad's bolters with them, too, to say nothing of suiting up with grenade launchers. They don't match up well with actual heavy weaponry but sheer numbers should outweigh that concern. Refitting your tank with twin-linked plasma guns because your lascannon sponsons finally melted down and that was the hardest-hitting available energy weapon you could rig into the existing power supply also makes sense.


I wouldn't even mind if the base weapons of CSM were downgraded to shotguns, autoguns and autopistols with bolt weaponry as upgrade options if it succeeded in showing that they used often inferior equipment but had acquired superior skill. And if it was balanced points-wise to use the weaker guns as well as also worth the points to buy bolters.

I think this is fascinating. Everyone should be talking about this. It would look really good, it would take some of the samey-ness out of the MEq game, it would allow basement level points on some units, and it would allow ludicrous buffs in some areas. If all the old options are still available, as upgrades, models wouldn't be obsolete. It's tremendous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Konrax wrote:
I really like the idea of unit leaders being mini lords.

Eldar already have that with the aspect warriors, why not chaos too?

Yes, like this. If your troops all start with autoguns, it's not weird to have a ws5, two wounds,ld10 model with hatred leading every single unit.

I dont think cultists should get access to mini lords, but I don't see why a marine unit, or cult marine unit shouldn't be able to upgrade the leader to an aspiring champion for a point cost that would give them access to bs/ws 5, i5, and 2 wounds for around 20-30 points. Give them access to relics and wargear, even terminator armour. Space wolves get something like this already as well.

It fits the fluf as well honestly, why can't a group of berserkers or thousand sons have an aspiring champion leading them?

As it stands now there is no aspiring champions anymore so where do new lords come from?

I would love a white scar equivalent as chaos I like bike army, but I dislike the Imperium lol. It could give me the options of playing Chaos with my Ravenwing army lol

There's no reason you can't now.

Setting aside the "my codex should be able to offer me the options I want without going elsewhere" discussion for a minute, which isn't entirely irrelevant, as long as everything is WYSIWYG, why not just make a bike army with C:SM rules and Chaos models?

 Azreal13 wrote:
There's no reason you can't now.

Setting aside the "my codex should be able to offer me the options I want without going elsewhere" discussion for a minute, which isn't entirely irrelevant, as long as everything is WYSIWYG, why not just make a bike army with C:SM rules and Chaos models?

That sounds an awful lot like Heresy

GENERAL WARNING: Please be sure to keep personal attacks out of posts at all times.

Rule #1, yeah?

Thanks!

I'd like to see an army wide rule that actually gets used. Yeah, I want Legion Tactics, no matter how much GW pushes the renegade angle I haven't in four years met a Chaos player who doesn't play one of the Traitor Legions.

I'd like a buff to aspiring champions to mean they can actually win a challenge, I roll on that table maybe once every four games however, in place of a buff to them I'd be fine with a rule where one of the squad members steps up to replace the champion when he dies, to show a new champion rising which is very flavourful and will give me an opportunity to actually get some boon rolls in once in a while..

Also, Chaos Drop Pods that aren't overpriced suicide pods and some additional wargear. Give us the option to take Kai Guns for ten points with the old statline.

Let Chaos Lords take the weapon options cult units can get. Why can't a Nurgle Lord Take a plague knife? Why can't a Slaaneshi Lord take a Doom Siren? Lucius has one. Something that really bothers me about the book is that cult units seem forced in to roles. Where are the thousand son terminators and raptors? They obviously exist, why can't we use them? We don't need alternate models, just let termis purchase an upgrade that gives them Inferno bolts and voila.

The new CSM Codex (if it ever arrives, not thrilled by the whole Daemonkin thing) needs an overhaul badly, if the new one is as soulless as the current one then I'll be using the Horus Heresy army list, I'll trade marks of Chaos Heldrakes to represent my force in a fluffy way any day.

The chaos don't deserve grav or cents. These are brand new to the marines so have had no time to even make it into chaos fluff wise.

We don't want grav or cents.

We want demonic power!!!!!!

More daemon-possessed equipment and warpgear would be nice, yes.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The chaos don't deserve grav or cents. These are brand new to the marines so have had no time to even make it into chaos fluff wise.

Grav weapons have been around since before the Great Crusade my friend.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The chaos don't deserve grav or cents. These are brand new to the marines so have had no time to even make it into chaos fluff wise.

Grav weapons have been around since before the Great Crusade my friend.

More to the point..

You have a shiny new assault rifle.

I shoot you in the head with my antique WWII bolt action rifle.

Now who has both a shiny new assault rifle and an antique?

In addition to introducing more low-tech weaponry I would really want to push the angle that your army isn't an organised force like anything the Imperium fields but rather a collection of champions and their personal retinues. The HQ choices would be lords, daemon princes and special characters. IDK what I would do exactly to make the DP more than just an extra large and choppy version of a close combat lord but I'd like to reflect their status as the end-game of all champions somehow.

What I would do to lieutenants is move them to the elites section, give them the basic profile of a regular chaos marine but with one more wound and then offer them the choice of one out of several consul-like upgrades. This character wouldn't represent a true leader of armies but someone who's either on the road to championhood or who has simply distinguished themselves in their chosen role after thousands of years. So if they used to be a heavy weapons trooper you'd give them +1BS and a big gun, if they were a tank commander you'd give them special rules and purchase a vehicle for them, if they were a techmarine you'd give them their extra arms and unlock automatic artillery, if they were an apothecary you'd offer them the options of poison-based weapons and unlock various genetically engineered war beasts for them to babysit, if they're a sorcerer or demagogue you give them psychic powers and unlock cultists... and so on and so on. They would be the missing link between a regular marine specialist or trooper and a lord. Either they're biding their time to take the next step or they aren't into it and have simply become exceptional at their form of warfare.

If this idea is used then daemon princes can be restricted to battles of a minimum points value but automatically unlock two of the unit types or special tactics that lieutenants do, without having to spend slots or points on them. The idea is to show that they can call upon much mightier hosts than mortals can.


I also like the suggestion of aspiring champions being more than just a mirrored veteran sergeant. You lose out on a lot of flavour when they're mostly the dude who's assigned a power fist.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The chaos don't deserve grav or cents. These are brand new to the marines so have had no time to even make it into chaos fluff wise.

Grav weapons have been around since before the Great Crusade my friend.

More to the point..

You have a shiny new assault rifle.

I shoot you in the head with my antique WWII bolt action rifle.

Now who has both a shiny new assault rifle and an antique?

A fair point!

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
The chaos don't deserve grav or cents. These are brand new to the marines so have had no time to even make it into chaos fluff wise.

Grav weapons have been around since before the Great Crusade my friend.

Not to mention:

- CSM kills a loyalist SM, steals his grav weapon (dang, ninja'd)
- CSMs raid a weapon depot and steal grav weapons and bikes
- CSMs conquer a forge world and use it to make their own grav weapons
- Loyalist SMs turn renegade and keep their grav weapons
- CSMs just happen to have some daemonic, Warp-powered equivalent of grav weaponry

 Korinov wrote:
The low tech suggestion, specially regarding some heavy stubbers and grenade launchers, is really spot on. Some options for warp or even daemonically enhanced ammo could be added as well (i.e frag grenades infused with some nasty, nasty secondary effects).

GW fears making chaos cooler than loyalists.

That said I think introducing this sort of additional equipment as a way to distinguish undivided legionaries from the big 4 cults or to distinguish Renegades from Legionaries would be a nice way to change things up and be quite representative of their distinct situations. For example it seems to me Renegades that don't necessarily have full access to the Hell-forges of the Dark Mechanicum are far more likely to be forced to scrounge and raid Imperial Guard and Planetary Defense Forces armories... Those would tend to be lower tech weapons like heavy stubbers and grenade launchers... Meanwhile those former Legionaries with stronger alliances with the Dark Mechanicum would have more of those pieces of tech that were banned from being developed by the Emperor, semi-daemonic weapons and rampant AI's and the like. Similarly I imagine the Iron Warriors would have been better at maintaining some of the older technology on their own due to having had more forgelords and techmarines... I wouldn't say give them a whole bunch of 30k stuff, but the simple things like boarding shields would be distinctive stay overs.

I'm fine with some weapon technologies not being available to CSM, even when it's easy to give them at least a more expensive version, because imperial marines should have a high-tech flavour.

Exactly which weapons were available when has fluctuated with editions, anyway. RT renegades could have multimeltas, which didn't change until the 2nd ed chaos book. The black codex that was released with the basic rules themselves even allowed CSM to equip their basic squads with both jump packs and heavy weapons!


EDIT:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Similarly I imagine the Iron Warriors would have been better at maintaining some of the older technology on their own due to having had more forgelords and techmarines... I wouldn't say give them a whole bunch of 30k stuff, but the simple things like boarding shields would be distinctive stay overs.

This sort of thing is why I wouldn't mind a separate book for the specific legions. Just the basic CSM list can be huge and trying to develop all nine legions at the same time might be too much. At least if you're going to do more than a separate FOC and some army-wide special rule (which I'm personally fine with, anyway).

In 2nd edition a Chaos army could buy any unit available in the Loyalist Marine codex for 25% premium to cost.

 aka_mythos wrote:
In 2nd edition a Chaos army could buy any unit available in the Loyalist Marine codex for 25% premium to cost.

I wonder how many people have chaos landspeeders and such gathering dust.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
In 2nd edition a Chaos army could buy any unit available in the Loyalist Marine codex for 25% premium to cost.

I wonder how many people have chaos landspeeders and such gathering dust.

I saw someone selling one they had converted on ebay a number of years back... probably right around the time its owner realized GW was never going to let him use it ever again.

Back in 2nd edition that rule was how GW gave chaos the way of representing their army as a Renegade force or a legionary force with strained maintenance of some loyalist tech. Now even if you want to play a Renegade army like Crimson Slaughter you end up playing "drop assault" specialists that can't even take drop pods.

Maybe in this era of formations and allies it'd be appropriate for some way of allying in select loyalists to represent such renegades.

I fear that no matter how much we may dream & wishlist for Chaos Marines to get anything close to what Vanillas (and likely Dark Angels) are getting, it would require GW to re-do a bunch of our current kits in order to give us those new option(s).

Sadly, considering how they blaitently flipped us the bird with the KDK and ignored that perfect opportunity to re-do the ancient Berserker kit, I don't see us actually getting any new models if we ever get a new codex...
There's just too much of our model line that news:
1. An actual kit, such as Chosen & Cultists
2. Transition from Finecrap into proper plastic. (Havocs, Plagues, 1ksons, Noisey dudes, etc...)
3. A make over to replace old & tired looking models. (CSM's themselves, Termies, Bikers)

Pretty much the only kits in our current line up that don't desperately need replacing are Hellbrutes, the Daemon engines, Termie Lord, Raptors/Warptalons & Possessed. Everything else really needs the treatment that Loyalists have been getting.
But then look at Eldar - it took what, 7-8 years for those plastic Jetbikes to become a reality?! That they're still stuck with only a single Aspect in plastic, plus ancient Guardians.

Its strange because going (solely) on that online poll that was up recently, CSM are the second biggest played faction GW have.
You'd think if they gave them a buff, sales would go even higher or more people would jump into them. I know I would.

A new box of chaos marines based on mk2-4 armour and styled after the old RT renegades would be pretty tremendous.

More than any specific options/freedoms I think CSM really need a shake-up in design philosophy. There's way too much 'start with loyalist unit X, subtract useful rule Y, add wacky useless rule and/or ridiculous self harm penalty Z, increase point cost'. There's a couple different directions you can take chaos marines but they really need to to give them identity rules wise and stick with it instead of repeatedly using that formula to create units everyone just groans 'meh' about.

To go along with what others have said above, I too think one good direction for CSM to go in ruleswise would be more focus on their 'leaders' including aspiring champions. There's a fluff line somewhere in the dex I believe about the leaders are what keeps the chaos marines together. Take it and run with it GW. If aspiring champs had rules like stubborn / whatever it would encourage challenges without just hamfistingly requiring them as 'champion of chaos' does.

Perhaps whats really needed is just some authors that have a real desire to bring crunch of CSM up to snuff with the lore. For instance, chaos terminator armor should be exceedingly rare given how chaos marines often lack infrastructure and are seemingly always in a fight for survival. Why then is the only real use for them minimum suicide squads? They should be expensive power houses. The owner of that armor has had to fight off chaos marines trying to take it for millenia and the best way to represent that is take the powerfist off loyalist termi and make it vulnerable to morale checks???

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:

More Changes:

Cultists can purchase suicide bombs

Cultists can purchase cheap heavy weapons



Plague marines get shrouded

We can now shoot into combat that has only cultists and enemy troops in it. Roll a d6 on the roll of 1-3 cultist hit on the roll of 4-6 enemy hit.

More cultist options, please, I want cultist armies to be a thing.

Imperial Armour 13 with CSM allies.

 PandaHero wrote:
I would love a white scar equivalent as chaos I like bike army, but I dislike the Imperium lol. It could give me the options of playing Chaos with my Ravenwing army lol

Take a CSM Lord on Bike/Jugger make an awesome conversion using ork bikes and dark eldar jetbikes bits;



Take 2 Cultists units and 3 bikers units, then take the Gorepack formation from KDK multiple times...

here you have a Biker army!!!

The problem with CSM is really that there are too many distinctive armies for them to do it in one book.
The most iconic being lost and the damned, renegade astartes and any of the nine traitor legions, all of which are quite different from each other. Also all of which any sane person would at least attempt to deliver over daemonkin/crimson slaughter books.
I have no idea what GW thinks CSM are supposed to be, but it's most definitely not what 95% of CSM players believe them to be.

So unless GW has some kind of epiphany and decides to commit to chaos and make a whole bunch of books for them, I don't see them realizing any of these ideas, as cool as they may sound. I don't see how they can make a codex that isn't half baked by design unless they spread the love over multiple books. I just hope that's not what they're trying to do with daemonkin.

Make baleflamer AP4 and increase pts cost. Add decurion that requires mandatory Possessed as core, gives everything Fear and Soulblaze but gives your enemy FNP and randomly hits your own guys with Str4 AP2. Release plastic Chaos Lord clampack. No other changes. K thx bye.

- Games Wokshop

Experiment 626 wrote:
So, now with those Loyalist dogs getting a shiny new 7th ed codex, alongside overall across the board price drops, even more Grav-spamming, buffs to their Chapter Tactics, decent to amazing Formation bonuses, etc...
What is it going to take for Chaos Marines to compete at this point? We don't have the massive Battle Bro's BFF club that Loyalists do - we're stuck with Daemonic allies and the new Daemonkin, the former of which is also beginning to show it's age.

Personally I'm hoping that this time around, we don't receive any new units at all. We've got pretty decent unit selection across the board overall. No, what we desperately need are more options in terms of weapon upgrades for our squads, and better pricing across our units!
Look at what just the Vanilla Marines have gotten in terms of 'new toys' for their squaddies/characters over the recent past;
- Grav pistol
- Grav gun
- Grav Cannon w/amp
- Heavy Flamer
- Sternguard ammo
- Relic Blade
- Eviscerator

It gets even worse when you take into account the other three books of the 'Big 4' Chapters, as BA's get Hand Flamers, Inferno pistols, Angelus Boltguns, Glaive Encarmine... DA's get Plasma cannon Termies, Plasma Talons, Corvus hammers, Blade of Caliban, Mace of Redemption... SW's get Frost Cannons...
We've been stuck with the exact same 3 special weapons, 4 heavy weapons, and basic close combat upgrades for going on 17 **** years!! Where the hell are all of our own unique toys that merge the power of the warp with arcane technology? What happened to all our Plasma cannons & Heavy flamers from the Heresy, when the former was actually much better understood at the time?!!

More than anything else, beyond pts drops, I don't think we can gain any ground in our overall competitiveness until we get some more options for kitting out squads... Melta spam in Rhinos just isn't enough these days.
And for an army that's all about being aggressive and getting into assaults, we're actually really, really terrible at even getting there! At the very least we need some new flavours of Land Raiders and an assault Rhino to get help get us stuck in.

Beyond that, I'd love to see Chosen actually be worth a damn, and not simply a bastardised Sternguard+Vanguard but -11 turd fest.



Of course, this is GW we're talking about, so the only thing I'd expect from a new CSM book is;
1. Army-wide nerfs & pts-hikes across the board.
2. No new models
3. They decide that Formationhammer is no more and thus we get 0 Formations, no Decurion, but a return to the days of 0-'X' options everywhere, because... "reasons"

Well let's look at this way, Chaos Space Marines are still Space Marines and they are technically can carry any weapon that Space Marines are given, this unwritten rule has never changed in the 10 years that I have been in the hobby.

Your Space Marine enemies with crap their pants when you hit them with their own weapons and it is legal.

Roknar wrote:
The problem with CSM is really that there are too many distinctive armies for them to do it in one book.
The most iconic being lost and the damned, renegade astartes and any of the nine traitor legions, all of which are quite different from each other. Also all of which any sane person would at least attempt to deliver over daemonkin/crimson slaughter books.
I have no idea what GW thinks CSM are supposed to be, but it's most definitely not what 95% of CSM players believe them to be.

So unless GW has some kind of epiphany and decides to commit to chaos and make a whole bunch of books for them, I don't see them realizing any of these ideas, as cool as they may sound. I don't see how they can make a codex that isn't half baked by design unless they spread the love over multiple books. I just hope that's not what they're trying to do with daemonkin.

I think GWs waking upto the possibilities. I wholeheartedly agree with you. The real shame is that GW insists the CSM codex represent these different things when it doesn't. The greatest sin is how often the CSM fiction presents things that we can't actually play or represent on the tabletop. Crimson Slaughter being the perfect example of drop pod assault specialists who don't get drop pods. Renegades in general don't make sense with our book because the book would have us giving them things only former Legionaries should have.

I think daemonkin is at least a step in the right direction for wanting to represent god devoted armies and comes far closer than the main CSM dex of representing World Eaters.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Roknar wrote:
The problem with CSM is really that there are too many distinctive armies for them to do it in one book.
The most iconic being lost and the damned, renegade astartes and any of the nine traitor legions, all of which are quite different from each other. Also all of which any sane person would at least attempt to deliver over daemonkin/crimson slaughter books.
I have no idea what GW thinks CSM are supposed to be, but it's most definitely not what 95% of CSM players believe them to be.

So unless GW has some kind of epiphany and decides to commit to chaos and make a whole bunch of books for them, I don't see them realizing any of these ideas, as cool as they may sound. I don't see how they can make a codex that isn't half baked by design unless they spread the love over multiple books. I just hope that's not what they're trying to do with daemonkin.

I think GWs waking upto the possibilities. I wholeheartedly agree with you. The real shame is that GW insists the CSM codex represent these different things when it doesn't. The greatest sin is how often the CSM fiction presents things that we can't actually play or represent on the tabletop. Crimson Slaughter being the perfect example of drop pod assault specialists who don't get drop pods. Renegades in general don't make sense with our book because the book would have us giving them things only former Legionaries should have.

I think daemonkin is at least a step in the right direction for wanting to represent god devoted armies and comes far closer than the main CSM dex of representing World Eaters.

I agree the kdk codex appears to do a great job representing those blood thirsty psychos.

Hopefully the tzeentch one isn't garbage, otherwise I will stick with my 2012 csm codex.

 Konrax wrote:

Hopefully the tzeentch one isn't garbage, otherwise I will stick with my 2012 csm codex.

I just hope its not some weird false-start. At different times GW has singled out specific sub-factions and given them individual attention, but it was never a guarantee that other sub-factions of the same army would get done. I hope they do give us a Tzneetch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh daemon kin codex. GW's just so hush hush about what they do and they've made no promises, Khorne Daemonkin could be the Iyanden or Catachan codex of Chaos... promising fork in the road that leads to a dead end.

In a way the CSM Codex already is a joke. What joke, you ask? You rarely see very many CSM in the army if it's supposed to do something. My old CSM mate maybe picks a few Chosen to escort his Lord/Sorcerer, because fluff. Anything else is done better by things not CSM.

So priority 1 should be to make the CSM themself worth taking!

Spetulhu wrote:
In a way the CSM Codex already is a joke. What joke, you ask? You rarely see very many CSM in the army if it's supposed to do something. My old CSM mate maybe picks a few Chosen to escort his Lord/Sorcerer, because fluff. Anything else is done better by things not CSM.

So priority 1 should be to make the CSM themself worth taking!

I think that's a good point. I think part of the issue with troop CSM unit, is that our CSM are crowded out with "Elite" troop choices in the form of Cult Marines and crowded out by the much cheaper Cultists. If we presume GW continues doing Daemonkin codices for the 4 chaos gods, those armies represent the armies most devoted to those gods where the those cult marines are most plentiful... At that point would it continue to make sense for the 4 cult marine units to continue to be Troop choices in the main CSM codex?-I don't think GW will think so. It might not be a popular choice but there is a justifiable rationale. Simply put as long as Cult marines are troop choices there will almost never be a reason to take basic CSM over them.

At that point when its just a choice between CSM and Chaos Cultists and its easier to focus and fixing the CSM unit. The CSM unit's main problem is that just like loyalist tactical squads they are generalists but beyond that they're generalists who aren't as good. They lose out in little ways that add up to something more significant that the cost difference and while they can have a greater number of models than a tactical squad those extra numbers aren't a real choice because it limits our already limited mobility while becoming a liability that can lead to greater number of points fleeing the table.

To fix them we need to address mobility and numerical liability. Mobility is an army wide problem that needs to be addressed with drop pods or a bigger transport or scouting/infiltrating/outflanking units. To address numerical liability you need something that fills that same gap that ATSKNF, but it needs to be in an appropriate way. I'd want to see something like the unit having stubborn until the point some condition is met, maybe something like their champion getting killed. I don't know, but something like that.

IF however the Cult Marine units remain troop choices, than the only feasible way to make CSM worth taking over those is if you're able through upgrades and options to make them as "elite" in capability. While that might be good in some ways, it really isn't a way GW design units anymore and if it gets to detailed you move into the territory of needing to give a number of similar options to the non-troop but basic CSM units. Its frankly more thematic for chaos god worshipers to be the standout elite troop units.

Maybe copying the Havoc specialisation idea would be a start? That is, the troop choice CSM unit isn't just called "Chaos Space Marines" but instead specialise in short-range shooting and assault and are called, idk, Assailers or some suitably aggressive term that isn't already taken. No heavy weapons but they can take a special weapon for every so-and-so models and have some access to improved close combat weapons. Veteran skills allow for even more specialisation.

Then you could add a number of different conveyance options and you'd have a decent core trooper. You could also give the Rhino the option of adding sponson weapons in exchange for transport capacity. Or give the Predator the option of gaining five-man transport capacity in exchange for removing the turret. You'd get a Razorback-ish vehicle that isn't just the same thing and is a very organic field tweak of existing vehicles. If you then also increase the possible sponson weapons from HBs and LCs to autocannons, missile launchers, twin plasma guns, twin heavy stubbers, mortars etc etc you'd really get some extra versatility.

And that's without making any use of IG vehicles or inventing entirely new things.

CSM is a vastly better choice compared to thousand sons.

Rhino with havoc launcher is also decent.

If we could take a couple cheap power weapons, say 5-10 pts each that would be a start.

At this points csm is a worse tactical marine and the only thing we have going is the havoc launcher.

I would like to see much more involvment of the warp. That could pretty much be their speciality. Weapons and wargear.

Like maybe you could loose transport capacity in a a rhino in exchange for some kinda warpfield generator. That has various effects on units in it's vicinity. And then let's say csm have some kind of armywide rule :"Warptainted".
Then it could give warptainted units a cover save or so due to reality visibly warping around that field. And against other units it might cause dangerous terrain or so. Maybe you could kick it into overdrive once per game for an enhanced effect or causing a nova of some kind.
That way you can have 10+ csm in one unit and still benefit from the rhino. Along with additional special/heavy weapons, because with that many you could very well still fire the heavy weapons while moving the rest of the unit.

Or special rules that affect the unit while the champion is still alive, since they enjoy some degree of protection from the gods. Or fearless on the champion only, so that only when he dies you risk running. While keeping the whole must challenge thing, so yo can't hide him. I personally like that rule as it's quite fluffy to me. They're kinda like commissars on steroids. At the same time though they MUST lead forward relentlessly or risk being considered weak and some other marines taking his position forcefully. Which could also be modeled into the rules. Like when you fail a morale check, then something happens. A bit like atsknf but differently.

It might also be nice to have the ability to lock down an objective with some kind of warp rift. That only objective secured units have the know-how to capture. which buys you some time and let's you be more aggressive, since you don't need an actual unit on the objective. And it also makes objective secured more attractive. Or maybe some option to defile an objective for some effect. Like locking it down for a turn while you move on or booby trapping it. Or letting daemons not scatter around the objective.
I really like the effect of the dimensional key, but it's nigh impossible to actually use. Although I've occasionally been quite lucky with the dangerous terrain bubble, as it causes tests even on pile in moves and charges (not sure if that's actually in the rules though, but that's how we play it anyway.)

Or maybe you could have some kind of warp bubble that let's you shunt across the battelfield. Like Thsouand sons in the fluff that kinda just appear out of nowhere, which I don't see as deepstriking, but more like reality bending so that two points that are seemingly far apart are actually connected. Suddenly a that 20 man csm unit is right there in your face. It would allow csm to be much more independant of vehicles, which would be nice given that they're supposed to come in relatively large numbers. and would tie in with the whole low tech/maintenance thing.

It would be cool if they could convey an idea that your not just fighting csm. The very concept of reality will be challenged. The longer the battle wages on, the more influence the chaos gods will exert, as the struggle draws their attention. I suppose that would be similar to dark eldar though, but maybe it could be done in such a way that they still feel quite different. Already you have very different units, and maybe you get different effects/buffs based on what you do, rather than the turn number.
It could be done such that word bearers would want to defile X things to gain better effects, while other legions gain effects from killing imperium of man stuff or whatever. With different tables, that aren't necessarily locked in. Black Legion also has it's fair share of bloody rituals after all. Maybe those tables would have tiers and only certain legions can progress further or so.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Konrax wrote:

Hopefully the tzeentch one isn't garbage, otherwise I will stick with my 2012 csm codex.

I just hope its not some weird false-start. At different times GW has singled out specific sub-factions and given them individual attention, but it was never a guarantee that other sub-factions of the same army would get done. I hope they do give us a Tzneetch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh daemon kin codex. GW's just so hush hush about what they do and they've made no promises, Khorne Daemonkin could be the Iyanden or Catachan codex of Chaos... promising fork in the road that leads to a dead end.

I would doubt that Khorne Daemonkin is going to be a dead-end minidex. The book has gotten a LOT of traction from what I've been seeing, given that it's a lot more flexibile than people seem to believe at first.

Also people seem to enjoy the Blood Tithe system, so I could see something similar to the Blood Tithe system or possibly Canticles of the Omnissiah(better buffs based upon the number of units "worshiping" that turn)making an appearance in the "main" CSM book whenever it gets redone.

I think one thing which could be really cool is the idea of defiling an objective. Maybe if an ObjSec CSM unit is in contact with an objective for an entire game turn without being contested by anyone else (ObjSec or not), it can now only count as being held by CSM. I think there have been similar things in Apocalypse before, but I can't remember what they did off the top of my head.

 -Shrike- wrote:
I think one thing which could be really cool is the idea of defiling an objective. Maybe if an ObjSec CSM unit is in contact with an objective for an entire game turn without being contested by anyone else (ObjSec or not), it can now only count as being held by CSM. I think there have been similar things in Apocalypse before, but I can't remember what they did off the top of my head.

I think that might be a little much outside of Apocalypse(it was tied to Stratagems IIRC), but something along the lines of an additional set of objectives that are placed by the enemy player outside of their deployment zone to represent a "holy relic" that CSM can get bonus VPs for controlling would be appropriate.

I kinda like that "defiled objective" idea, but yeah that might be too much. It might just be easier to say that a CSM unit with "Objective Defiled" can't be contested by a units with "Objective Secured"... forcing other armies to scrape the chaos taint off of an objective.

That's why I suggested it would only last for one turn. That way if you don't want anybody else to get it you would still have to stay close and would work similar to what aka_mythos suggested. Though I suppose there could be a way to undo the effect. Maybe the efffect could be linked to the aspiring champion? kill him and your good? Puts the focus on the leaders mattering again.

Of course there should be some non objective aspect of that too. Otherwise it's just one of those useless rules if you don't happen to have objectives. Sacrifing units defeated in close combat comes to mind but I kinda doubt GW introducing that mechanic. Not if they want to keep kid friendly (which I think is a mistake but that's a different issue).

It was a Chaos stratagem for Apoc, the Objective was destroyed, and none of the 2 armies could claim it once if was Defiled.

CSM would get the VPs for this objective, then the objective would be destroyed.

There is something similare with KDK, Altar of Gore objective card.

You gain a VP if you destroy an ennemy unit that control an objective token.
You gain D3 VP, if one of your unit then control the same objective after destroying the ennemy unit.

I also personnaly feel that cultists should have infiltrator and a Kamikaze rule or a Indiscrimnate fire rule.

Kamikaze; for each Cultists model that lose a Wound,roll a dice, on a 4+ center the explosion template on one of the models, all models (friend&foe) is hit by D3 Str4 Ap5 ignore cover hits, if others Cultists models loose a Wound because of this, then rethrow another dice, on a 4+, the explosive device goes off and the hits are then resolved, note that only one device at a time can go off, do this until there is no more Cultists or until one of the explosive device doesn't go off.

Indiscrimnate fire; even if a Cultists unit is engaged in CC with an ennemy unit, friendly CSM units can still shoot at the ennemy target, just like if they where not engaged in CC, for each succesfull save the ennemy unit take, the hits are resolved Vs the cultists unit instead.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
It was a Chaos stratagem for Apoc, the Objective was destroyed, and none of the 2 armies could claim it once if was Defiled.

CSM would get the VPs for this objective, then the objective would be destroyed.

There is something similare with KDK, Altar of Gore objective card.

You gain a VP if you destroy an ennemy unit that control an objective token.
You gain D3 VP, if one of your unit then control the same objective after destroying the ennemy unit.

I also personnaly feel that cultists should have infiltrator and a Kamikaze rule or a Indiscrimnate fire rule.

Kamikaze; for each Cultists model that lose a Wound,roll a dice, on a 4+ center the explosion template on one of the models, all models (friend&foe) is hit by D3 Str4 Ap5 ignore cover hits, if others Cultists models loose a Wound because of this, then rethrow another dice, on a 4+, the explosive device goes off and the hits are then resolved, note that only one device at a time can go off, do this until there is no more Cultists or until one of the explosive device doesn't go off.

Indiscrimnate fire; even if a Cultists unit is engaged in CC with an ennemy unit, friendly CSM units can still shoot at the ennemy target, just like if they where not engaged in CC, for each succesfull save the ennemy unit take, the hits are resolved Vs the cultists unit instead.

The Badab War has a rather similar set of rules about indiscriminate fire... I'll look it up later. Personally, I think it would make more sense to say that if you miss on your to hit roll, resolve the attack against the cultists instead. Similar to Kharn's rule, but in shooting rather than close combat. Obviously, for blast weapons, you just resolve as normal.

A rule like Kamikaze is never going to happen again...like ever lol.
Varying shades of indiscriminate fire though would be cool. Like the Forge World one. Iron Warriors would probably get something closer to forge world while other legions get a lighter version of it.

If CSM got an "indiscriminate fire" rule, then I want it for Guard and the Mechanicus factions!

Well I will say that in my opinion main CSM rule book should be split into two,

One rule book about recent renegades and lesser war-bands, they should have access to most recent loyalist weapons, minus the artifacts and some special rules replaced by others. Second book about legions and their more tainted gear, horus heresy era technology and so on.

Personally I don't see much use for razorback in CSM army. I would prefer to have open topped rhino with expanded transport space. That model could be even done with current rhino sprue.
Also I think slaanesh psychic disciplines are not that bad and I wouldn't like them to go.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If CSM got an "indiscriminate fire" rule, then I want it for Guard and the Mechanicus factions!

Actually, I'm pretty sure there are some IG armies where they can call down a bombardment on their heads. (I can't remember which ones, though... DKoK, maybe?)

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:
I think one thing which could be really cool is the idea of defiling an objective. Maybe if an ObjSec CSM unit is in contact with an objective for an entire game turn without being contested by anyone else (ObjSec or not), it can now only count as being held by CSM. I think there have been similar things in Apocalypse before, but I can't remember what they did off the top of my head.

I think that might be a little much outside of Apocalypse(it was tied to Stratagems IIRC), but something along the lines of an additional set of objectives that are placed by the enemy player outside of their deployment zone to represent a "holy relic" that CSM can get bonus VPs for controlling would be appropriate.

I just saw that space marine formation with devs and assault marines....and then there was the whole warp charges on 2+ thing...and a bazzillion free razorbacks.


Free units with mechanicum and so on and so on. I was thinking that outright stealing objectives would be too strong...but I'm not convinced anymore. It seems there is no such thing as too strong anymore. Like literally not and I'm not even trying to be funny. I'm getting the impression that if they think it would be cool fluffwise, they'll just do it. You could still get VPs from non objective markers, so it's totally fair...........

I wouldn't even be surprised if they came up with something along the lines of, remove a unit of cultists from play and on a 3+ you can remove a enemy unit from the game. If you fail, then bring in a new unit from reserves next turn. Gargantuan creatures are fine, they only take d3 wounds. Necrons can still use reanimation protocols. Everythings still fine.

** And just for clarity: Either would be bad, but at this point I honestly wouldn't put either past GW.**

Roknar wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:
I think one thing which could be really cool is the idea of defiling an objective. Maybe if an ObjSec CSM unit is in contact with an objective for an entire game turn without being contested by anyone else (ObjSec or not), it can now only count as being held by CSM. I think there have been similar things in Apocalypse before, but I can't remember what they did off the top of my head.

I think that might be a little much outside of Apocalypse(it was tied to Stratagems IIRC), but something along the lines of an additional set of objectives that are placed by the enemy player outside of their deployment zone to represent a "holy relic" that CSM can get bonus VPs for controlling would be appropriate.

I just saw that space marine formation with devs and assault marines....and then there was the whole warp charges on 2+ thing...and a bazzillion free razorbacks.


Free units with mechanicum and so on and so on.

Mechanicus doesn't get "free units".

They get free UPGRADES to those units; i.e. things like Plasma Guns or Omnispex.

True, thanks for correcting me.. I was in outburst mode


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's still a trend I don't agree with though.

I don't believe that there will be a CSM Codex. There will be 4 X Daemonkin codexes that you can ally with each other.

Being able to kit them out like a Space Wolves Pack would be good (ie, 1 special weapon per 5, a power weapon/ fist, a plasma pistol, and THEN the Champion)

Most of all, I want the flavour of the 3.5 Codex though. My GOD, that was amazing. It's why I started playing CSM in the first place.

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't believe that there will be a CSM Codex. There will be 4 X Daemonkin codexes that you can ally with each other.

That would be stupid as feth. What about the masses of non-aligned Legions, Renegade Chapters & Warbands? Or else how massively over-restrictive it would become?

Experiment 626 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't believe that there will be a CSM Codex. There will be 4 X Daemonkin codexes that you can ally with each other.

That would be stupid as feth. What about the masses of non-aligned Legions, Renegade Chapters & Warbands? Or else how massively over-restrictive it would become?

Yeah, I'm not buying it either. What would happen to the Black Legion poster boys? Why would they choose to split nine legions and countless renegades into four books, which in total represent less than half of the Chaos Space Marines? They're never going to get rid of the unaligned CSM, it would practically be suicide.

And GW is the poster child for making sense right? lol

But I really doubt that the daemonkin books are an attempt to cover even the god specific legions.
Khorne daemonkin is pretty bad at representing world eaters for example. No Kharn, no rules for veterans, no siege engines. And well, no awesome "new" units like defiler transports. With csm allies, it holds up pretty well as a legion, but as a stand alone codex its kinda meh for that purpose. And taking allies means less bloodtithe points so its doubly meh.

My hope is that they keep csm, but give it a proper identity. Like Lost and the damned or renegade astartes or whatever. Just as long as it's not one single book trying to shoehorn everything chaos into it. I'd still prefer that (with no legion support) over the book we currently have.

Either way though we (probably) won't be getting a new chaos dex until they're done with all the daemonkin books. Whatever that dex turns out to be. And that will hopefully not be a csm dex as we know it. Or all those first born sacrifices will finally pay off and we get a series of legion books.

I really doubt that the Deamonkin treatment will go on.

I mean the Deamonkin thematic is that they have such devotion for deamons, that they praise them as deities and do anything they can for them to come into the Universe, through Carnage, Murder and destruction.

I don't see the other Cults be really in the same state of mind.

Also don't forget that each time we think we knows what GW plan is, or what they will do next, we are 100000000 miles off the mark.

They released Supplement Codexes, that needed the parent codex to work, now there is no more Supplement codex, they are their own codex, even if there is only like 4 units in it( Space Clowns, Ad Mech).

They released Black Legion, so we where expecting to see another Legion, and we got a Renegade Chapter, we where waiting for more Supplements for CSM, 2 years later we only have KDK, evne though its a nice book, its not what we waited for so long.

So yeah, the lesson here is, that you cannot know fore sure what GW will do next, even though all the rumors i really din't think they would release such a Niche army has the Ad Mech.

i know lots of people wanted AdMech, but usually they are older people that have been playing since 2nd or 3rd Ed, or even RT, most of the younger ones din't really care for AdMech until FW started to make models for HH.

In our group there is but 2 people who really wanted for years AdMech books, so its not that popular, at least not much over here, but GW still did it.

So in short, i dunno what to expect or to be sure about anything anymore when it comes to GW.

Heck i don't even know if the guys at GW knows what to expect themselfs...

Experiment 626 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't believe that there will be a CSM Codex. There will be 4 X Daemonkin codexes that you can ally with each other.

That would be stupid as feth. What about the masses of non-aligned Legions, Renegade Chapters & Warbands? Or else how massively over-restrictive it would become?

It would be stupid, but around a year ago (give or take) there were rumors floating around that the future of CSM wasn't one big dex, but four god specific marine-demon hybrids.

Considering we've gotten a Khorne one, and another seems to be on the way...

 morganfreeman wrote:
It would be stupid, but around a year ago (give or take) there were rumors floating around that the future of CSM wasn't one big dex, but four god specific marine-demon hybrids.

Considering we've gotten a Khorne one, and another seems to be on the way...

Ughhh, please say it ain't so! I have some Word Bearers and some Iron Warriors. Tell me they won't be left out...

I'd really love to not need two separate books for them both...

Lord Corellia wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
It would be stupid, but around a year ago (give or take) there were rumors floating around that the future of CSM wasn't one big dex, but four god specific marine-demon hybrids.

Considering we've gotten a Khorne one, and another seems to be on the way...

Ughhh, please say it ain't so! I have some Word Bearers and some Iron Warriors. Tell me they won't be left out...

I'd really love to not need two separate books for them both...

The rumor is currently for a Tzeentch Daemonkin book, which wouldn't have anything to do with Thousand Sons.
The rumors of "four god specific marine-daemon hybrid" books came out not "around a year ago", but rather a few months ago when Khorne Daemonkin came out.


As it stands, Khorne Daemonkin? It's actually a really interesting book to play and play against. It's not meant to be a "Legion book" but rather it's meant to be a book focused upon a "Cult" army. With Khorne as well it is a very thematic book since there are no real summoners for the Khorne devotees but rather they just butcher and butcher until they finally weaken reality enough that the Bloody Host can pour through.

Make the basic CSM cheaper, and have a good way to deliver them into the fight, something similar to drop pods?

Being able to take 2x special weapons is a real bonus and something I wish that SM tacs could take, but CSM's with the upgrades that make them work just gets too pricey...

Access to divination on the sorcerer HAS to happen now, and that would boost their utility 10 fold.

Maybe Legion doctrines would be nice and pretty fluffy aswell, buying termis in groups of 5 and cheaper.

Tbh you could wish list for hours for the things that would fix the CSM book, but I would look on the bright side with Khorne Daemonkin not being a flop there IS hope on the horizon.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
I really doubt that the Deamonkin treatment will go on.

I mean the Deamonkin thematic is that they have such devotion for deamons, that they praise them as deities and do anything they can for them to come into the Universe, through Carnage, Murder and destruction.

I don't see the other Cults be really in the same state of mind.

Depends on what you mean by daemonkin treatment. As far as I'm concerned Khorne daemonkin is synonymous with codex Bloodthirster. And they have 3 more greater daemons to release. Soooo yea. At the very least it looks like we're getting tzeentch daemonkin. And I'm really curious what they're going to do with that. I agree that making the other codices carbon copies of the khorne daemonkin in terms of fluff would be pretty awkward even for csm standards. But I can't really think of a whole lot of other reasons to center a codex around a greater daemon.

Of course they could surprise us all and pull a reverse crimson slaughter and give us a Thousand Son codex. Weirder things have happened.

 Kanluwen wrote:



As it stands, Khorne Daemonkin? It's actually a really interesting book to play and play against. It's not meant to be a "Legion book" but rather it's meant to be a book focused upon a "Cult" army. With Khorne as well it is a very thematic book since there are no real summoners for the Khorne devotees but rather they just butcher and butcher until they finally weaken reality enough that the Bloody Host can pour through.

I'm talking about a wholly different one. It floated around a bit roughly a year ago (I remember because it was at the same time as the Ork dex was on the horizon), and fell out of sight there after.

It's doubtlessly resurfaced / new ones have come about in the wake of Khorne Demonkin, but I'm talking about a wholly different beast here. Thanks for being so dismissive though, every time I read one of your posts I feel even less inclined to repeat that mistake in the future.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:



As it stands, Khorne Daemonkin? It's actually a really interesting book to play and play against. It's not meant to be a "Legion book" but rather it's meant to be a book focused upon a "Cult" army. With Khorne as well it is a very thematic book since there are no real summoners for the Khorne devotees but rather they just butcher and butcher until they finally weaken reality enough that the Bloody Host can pour through.

I'm talking about a wholly different one. It floated around a bit roughly a year ago (I remember because it was at the same time as the Ork dex was on the horizon), and fell out of sight there after.

It's doubtlessly resurfaced / new ones have come about in the wake of Khorne Demonkin, but I'm talking about a wholly different beast here. Thanks for being so dismissive though, every time I read one of your posts I feel even less inclined to repeat that mistake in the future.

Call it dismissive if you want(it wasn't my intent); but the only rumors I can recall in regards to a "Daemon/Marine hybrid books" began surfacing after KDK released.

There were rumors about Legion books that cropped up after the Ork book released; but most of them were REALLY wishlisty. I mean, we're talking about rumors where Kharibdyss Assault Pods were a Dedicated Transport option and you would have the ability to field Chosen-equivalents as Troops.

Chaos definitely needs more Warp or Psychic capabilities. We WORSHIP the warp. We should be the best psykers in the game.

Its probably been mentioned, but warp gates/ds for everthing.
Provided you have the requisite sorcerer tax or something.
Tzeench get Eldar powers.
Khorne gets some move and assault rule, pass ld, charge or fail and resolve the combat amongst the unit.
Slaanesh gets a +3/5 move.
Nurgle, hmmm. Everything thing with in 8" -1 across the enemy stat board, except for wounds, as their bodys are assaulted by ravaged by disease.
Undivided get weapon/vehicle options from the new Codex Ultramarines.

I'd like to see some Model updates, such as Abaddon (who looks aweful now compared to the magnificent Calagar)
also Better Possessed rules, maybe an option for a Possessed Lord
I'd like to see a Massive Muti-part Chaos Lord Kit, parts for all the gods and awesome looking weapons

id agree that we need more options, id like to see stuff like a Whip, A Chain-Glaive, Manreaper for lords ( anything to help us get on a level with every other fudger out there)

Im a Chaos player and im Proud of it, but im fed up of all the love going seemingly every other Codex except me






what we really need is Matt Ward to write our Codex (rules only)

I don't see anything wrong with Abbadon's model. Easily one of the best models ever released for 40k. Which reminds me, my FLGS still has it stored in holy metal... I'll likely grab it in my next visit

Possesed needs to be like Gal Vorbaks...

I mean Marines stats with Str and Thoughness! 5, Deamons, you roll a mutation at the start of the game, they have Bolt pistols!!!, and CCW options, and they cost 30pts a model...., just like our sub par possesed now...

Also please, give the Bloodthirster his Str 8 back, it doesn't makes any sens that he's only Str6...

the problem is that CSM players whine and complain about poor codices is lore behind chaos. CSM forces have extremely developed and massive back story which is represented by rule books very poorly.

Well while at it I will include my personal wish list of proposed changes. Put a spolier on it due size.




I didn't went into depth with HQ as it would take way too much space.

My suggestion :

Remove Possessed,  Chosen, Plague Marines, Khorne Beserkers,  Noise Marines,  Thousand Sons as they will be exclusive in Khorne Daemonkin, Tzeentch Daemonkin, Nurgle Daemonkin, Slaanesh Daemonkin
codexes.

Give terminators sternguard like ammo or permi combi melta/plasma/flamer. Give them the option to carry laser weapons such as Triple lasgun, multi laser because  they are walking energy generators. Give each termi a combat familiar for 2pps or free so they get 2 additional s4 ap- attacks. Now Termi are decent in melee.

Hell give each champs if Chaos a free combat familiar.  The termi champ gets 2! Also rewrite Champion of Chaos to include blanket 6++ invul save in close combat and the invul stacks so a termi champ gets 4++ in combat, and a tzeentch termi champ gets 3++ in combat. And make all power weapons 5-7pts or free or make it a power daemon weapon at 15pts. Also a blanket buff to WS of +1 to all champ of chaos.
Reduce the boon table to just a single d6 or replace with a tally count buff like goredrinker. Also make it so challeng      
goads enemy squad out of cover.     
Replace bolters on marines for Lasguns and make them even cheaper. Retain option for boltgun as a 1-2ppm upgrade. Allow csm squad of 5 to carry 2 special or heavy guns. This will make csm basic troops very good! Plasma guns should cost 10pts. Also expand choices to better 30k version of guns that cost a bit more but much better like 30k plasmaguns that n3ver gets hot for 15pts or an ectoplasma gun for 15pts. Allow heavy gun called the warped conversion beam gun without the focusing rule and you perma choose the firing variance so troops can move but only shoot 1 specific range all game. Allow a faux heavy weapon called a multi plasma cannon for 15pts, it just has 36" heavy 3 s7 ap2 instead of small
blast.

Plasma guns in general should have option to remove gets hot by reducing s7 to s6 or ap2 to ap3 however  to make book keeping simple, the entire army must choose whether everyone gets ecto plasma, 30k safe plasma, or S6 safe plasma, or ap3 safe plasma. 

I like that suggestion someone made about if ld is failed, execute 1 model to auto pass ld check do they dont get swept.  

Make mutilator and obliterator 1wound and reduce their cost in by 40% so they would be 40pt mutilator and 50pts oblitz. And expand max squad size by 2x.   Give mutilators free single use jump packs due to daemonic leaping.
To fix helbrutes and fiends, Create a formation where the helbrute rides the fiends into battle!!! saw/carve a divet slot into the back of the fiend to slide in a helbrute.  Helbrute gets a lance or a sword or whatever.  Make 3 kinds of formation. The Lance Charge which is a ccw lance wielding brute on one arm and a mm or ml or lc or ac arm on the other or 2 lances. The brute rides a mauler fiend with whatever options. They get hammer of wrath. This formation is ment to charge into Imperial Knight titans at i5 and b4 stomp. Next formation is the mobile gun drive by. Any ranged guns on brute riding a dakka fiend. Dakka fiend benefits from brutes crazed results.

Next is the Defiler, Make him into a transport! He can carry 10 csm on his back. There is a odd empty space  on the back of a defiler as if it is the egg sac on
a spider. This walking transport can move and charge! When the defiler charges and gets into melee, the 10 csm can pop out and join the melee! or hide back inside. Now a crazy idea is, what if the battle cannon can shoot at the enemy and then a squad it was carrying is magically teleported directly where the center of the blast went off? and they can charge into melee same turn!

 Whiskered wrote:
Hell brutes
- Price drop
- Option to take chaos marks
- Option to take god specific weapons
- Option to take It will not die
- Option to take Malefic ammunition. ( Heavy bolters and auto cannons get rending special rule)
- Needs to become monstrous creature not a vehicle.

Actually it'd be cool if Helbrutes got a (very slight) price drop, the chaos marks and IWND.

On the other hand, a proper Chaos Dreadnought could be introduced, basically replicating the Ferrus Infernus from IA13. Veteran of the Long War + "venerable" by default (WS and BS 5, hatred against all IoM factions, etc). Also customizable depending not on gods but even on legions.

It would be incredibly cool, sadly it won't happen.

 Korinov wrote:

 Whiskered wrote:
Hell brutes
- Price drop
- Option to take chaos marks
- Option to take god specific weapons
- Option to take It will not die
- Option to take Malefic ammunition. ( Heavy bolters and auto cannons get rending special rule)
- Needs to become monstrous creature not a vehicle.

Actually it'd be cool if Helbrutes got a (very slight) price drop, the chaos marks and IWND.

On the other hand, a proper Chaos Dreadnought could be introduced, basically replicating the Ferrus Infernus from IA13. Veteran of the Long War + "venerable" by default (WS and BS 5, hatred against all IoM factions, etc). Also customizable depending not on gods but even on legions.

It would be incredibly cool, sadly it won't happen.

I think the best way to play CSM thees days is create your own warband oh and IA 13 is must have. I wish some of upgrades like malefic ammunition would come to the core rules set.

I like IA13 but it should be supplemental and not mandatory to play.

I think GW has a certain reluctance in making anything Chaos has as being standout better than Loyalist marines. It is the draw of power that leads Loyalists to become Renegades and fall to Chaos, maybe GWs trying to teach some moral to the story but they seem largely fall and sacrifice and not much in the way of power that would have tempted them. Becoming a possessed marine doesn't even provide as much as an advantage as what can be accomplished with fancy technology... Why would they ever do that?-even an insane man recognizes degrees of inequity. The same sort of thought applies to daemon engines... Why would you ever want the weapon that might shoot you in the face when for less effort you could have one that won't?-It's only justified when it brings capabilities that truly exceed mundane options.

If they pushed CSM to have a lot of extra kinds of consul-like champions as elite choices you could really get the flavour of searching for individual power at all costs that the faction is supposed to have. Especially if you also boosted aspiring champions to something that is actually impressive and interesting.

Possession is something that imho needs a complete overhaul. I'd like to see what you could do with the idea as an upgrade for existing characters and units.

Rosebuddy wrote:
If they pushed CSM to have a lot of extra kinds of consul-like champions as elite choices you could really get the flavour of searching for individual power at all costs that the faction is supposed to have. Especially if you also boosted aspiring champions to something that is actually impressive and interesting.

Possession is something that imho needs a complete overhaul. I'd like to see what you could do with the idea as an upgrade for existing characters and units.

GW seems to have wanted Champions to be an important part of our book but they made them liabilities... Space Wolves are a good example of having these independent champions each with their own character. I'm not saying our army should look like that but that Chaos champions should be somewhere closer to that than to where we are. I think it's a clearer way for GW to convey its message that former legions and renegade chapters don't matter as much as piratical cults formed around individual tyrants trying to get in the graces of the chaos gods.

That isn't the interpretation or version players want to hear but is the one GW says they're trying to make; ultimately it's one more thing that shows GW has a jumbled idea of how to do chaos.

Chaos need to be made the horrific killing machines they are supposed to be.

The average chaos marine who is a VOTLW should make even the hardiest loyalist marine quake in his boots.

Hundreds of years of experience plus the favor of dark gods should make you a beast.

We need price adjustments, rewrites of certain units to make them useful and in line with the current power curve, and scary formations/detachments.

As an example:

Defilers should be able to be bought 1-3 as a single heavy choice.
Increase Front armour to 13
Allow a formation of three to combine battlecannon fire to use apocalyptic blast
Keep points as is.

IF they don't get any changes they need a price drop at the very least.


I also expect we are going to see a " chaos renegades/LATD/cultists" codex which will give use more fluffy and varied alliances.

Look, I know you guys have reasons to complain but you miss one major point: You have the 3+ saves as base. You are MEQ's
Try being an IG player in this era. You have non of the fancy weapons and formations that other forces have access too, 6thed effectively nerfed vehicles into the ground and now your tanks can be glanced to death with ease, provided your opponent knows what they are doing.
And the Evisecrator. I am truly sorry about that one. Believe me, us IG players would have fought if we had known but we did not. And now the loyalist scum have taken the only real reason to take a priest.

And the most amusing point is that loyalist marine players are saying they are not overpowered and are perfectly balanced, or even slightly underpowered.....
Actually, you are right. Chaos does need a buff. And so does the Imperial Guard. Both of us need a buff that takes us to a new power level waaaayyyyy above the big four (Space Marines, Eldar, Adeptus Mechanicus and Necrons) and leaves them trailing in the dust for once.

I hate to say this but I am with you on this one whole heartedly.

Our Champs should be mini lords.

look at the Eldars and their units characters, they not only have better equipement, but also special rules/powers.

Why a Chaos CHamp doesn't have some "dark aura" thingy that give the unit and the model Y or Z usr or something else is beyond me.

Init5 2 Wounds and a special rule of some sort.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
If they pushed CSM to have a lot of extra kinds of consul-like champions as elite choices you could really get the flavour of searching for individual power at all costs that the faction is supposed to have. Especially if you also boosted aspiring champions to something that is actually impressive and interesting.

Possession is something that imho needs a complete overhaul. I'd like to see what you could do with the idea as an upgrade for existing characters and units.

GW seems to have wanted Champions to be an important part of our book but they made them liabilities... Space Wolves are a good example of having these independent champions each with their own character. I'm not saying our army should look like that but that Chaos champions should be somewhere closer to that than to where we are. I think it's a clearer way for GW to convey its message that former legions and renegade chapters don't matter as much as piratical cults formed around individual tyrants trying to get in the graces of the chaos gods.

That isn't the interpretation or version players want to hear but is the one GW says they're trying to make; ultimately it's one more thing that shows GW has a jumbled idea of how to do chaos.

Yea, the main problem with csm isn't rules. It's that they have had an identity crisis since...well pretty much forever. Though I'm kind of getting the feeling that GW is at least trying to figure that out in order to give us a more focused codex after the whole daemonkin thing. It's almost guaranteed to put off quite a few people, but I'd say csm would be better for it. Once/if they manage that, cool rules/wargear/etc will follow naturally (in theory anyway).
Khorne daemonkin aren't exactly what we were hoping for, but if you ignore the existence of the csm codex. It actually becomes a pretty decent codex. They really nailed the fanatical daemon worshiping. And the units work well for most part in the formations. It's far from perfect, but it's good enough to say they succeeded in their goal of daemon worshiping followers of chaos which happen to have a large presence of chaos marines.
I would (want to) consider khorne daemonkin not only a relic from a previous design cycle, but also a testing bed for future chaos codices. I imagine this might hold true for the other daemonkin too, depending on how far in development they were, if at all.
It's not the book I was looking for, but it gives me some hope that csm will be more focused in the future. Which will lead to better codices. Though it might also mean I have to switch to FW to scratch that traitor legion itch, but I'd be fine with that.

Imho Chaos Spcae Marines are the only army in the game with this problem. Even Codex Space Marines is pretty specific in what it attempts to represent, despite it's generalist nature. Imperial guard suffered from the same issue to a lesser degree, but not anymore, now that they cut more "exotic" stuff like catachans. If they want to support different styles like Elysian drop troops, then they can make a codex specific to them. Which they'll never do ofc, but that's a different issue.
I for one, would much rather have codex: <specific csm> over codex:<faceless jack-of-all-trades csm>. Even if it means not getting the codex I want. At least then I can fully commit to whatever other fraction suits me better. Ironically, atm that would be sisters....le sigh.

I disagree with reducing point costs and making the army use more generic wargear. I certainly agree with the general idea that the cost:benefit ratio for a lot of units in the book is off, but I’d rather they make the units more powerful and worth the investment as opposed to trying to bring the points down to reflect their current relative power.

40k really doesn’t have a whole army designed around the ‘small numbers, big payoff’ type of role. Sure we have things like Deathwing and Nidzilla, but these are just flavor lists, not really meant to be balanced or competitive. If the mark system were redesigned so each mark was relevant, viable, and equally priced, these could be used to add a lot of power to individual units at a great price. Especially if they introduced tiers to these marks.

For Example…
Renegade Chaos Space Marine, 15pts each, but come with a mark base. They’re also given the renegade special rule which is just fearless. For +5 pts, you could upgrade your Renegade Chaos Space Marine to a Veteran Chaos Space Marine. The veteran special rule gives you everything renegade does but also gives you something else. Elite cult units or chosen would have further upgrades. Possessed would have 2 marks from friendly gods (Khorne + Tzee or Nurgle + Slaanesh). etc.

Mark of Tzeentch
Renegade: +1 invuln save.
Veteran: +1 invuln save, and you can reroll all 1s.
Chosen: ???
Cult: Effectively makes you a rubric marine with all their special rules (which also need an update)

Renegade kind of shows you have only just started to get the attention of the chaos gods and their gifts reflect this. Veterans would be much older and have proven themselves to the chaos gods so their gifts would be more noticeable. Further still would be the cult marines or chosen.

Now I don’t know if giving your unit +1 invuln and the ability to reroll all failed saves of a 1 is fair or worth 5 pts, but it’s just to give an idea of where they could go with a system like this. Each unit is fairly expensive, but their special rules and mark make it worth it.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Our Champs should be mini lords.

look at the Eldars and their units characters, they not only have better equipement, but also special rules/powers.

Why a Chaos CHamp doesn't have some "dark aura" thingy that give the unit and the model Y or Z usr or something else is beyond me.

Init5 2 Wounds and a special rule of some sort.

I second that, but I think this should be specific only to legions/spliter warbands. While renegade chapters should have just evil sergant

Formations. Its the age we live in.

I edited my post earlier.

what do you guys think of a formation where Helbrutes ride Mauler Fiends? Or Defiler gettjng an egg sac to carry 10 marines and even teleport them not from reserves from the crater of the battle cannon blast?

 Filch wrote:
I edited my post earlier.

what do you guys think of a formation where Helbrutes ride Mauler Fiends? Or Defiler gettjng an egg sac to carry 10 marines and even teleport them not from reserves from the crater of the battle cannon blast?

I am sorry but I am not sure if you are serious or sarcastic.

Whiskey144, is that you with a new account from being banned?

Btw, I am serious! If I think I can model a helbrute riding a fiend! Also tbe egg sac carrying 10 marines on the defiler.

 Filch wrote:
Whiskey144, is that you with a new account from being banned?

Btw, I am serious! If I think I can model a helbrute riding a fiend! Also tbe egg sac carrying 10 marines on the defiler.

Who's that?


Also on topic. I find it hilarious that only monstrous creature that CSM got is demon prince.
Now you made me think how walker transport option would work in this game.

Hell Knight Riders formation:
3 Helbrutes each with mandatory special Lance Dreadnaught close combat weapon carried in one arm. the other arm is free for upgrade options.

3 mauler fiends.

Shared Daemon heart: Can allocate haulpoints amongst rider and mount. And Helbrute gets 5++
Shared Daemon forged Engine: Both the helbrute and fiend benefit from demonforged so once per battle helbrute can re roll all to hit and to wound rolls.

Move thru cover

Hammer of Wrath: On a charge both helbrute and fiend generates seperate HoW attack therby creating more attacks .

Dreadnaught ccw Lance: +2 initiative on the charge. +3 str therby making hits s9 on the charge and subsequently +1 str so helbrutes hit at s7 after charge. Ap1 on the charge and ap2 there after.

Crazed Mount: if the fiend suffers a glance or penetrate hit then it rolls on tbe crazed table and the helbrute does the same thing. If brute suffer crazed then so would the fiend.

They will not die! Helbrute also gets iwnd. So if helbrute has 1 less hp and so does fiend, roll for both separately so you can recover 1 hp from brute and 1 from fiend.

Preferred Enemy: Super Heavies

Defiler brood formation:
2 defilers carrying what appears to be a drop pod on their backs.

2 squads of csm.

Egg pod: Treat this defiler as if it had a carrying capacity of 10 troops and the troops can disembark on the sides and rear of the defiler.

Battle Born: When the Defiler charges into combat. After over watch is denied by dirge casters or not and challenges issued, the squad of marines may disembark directly into combat joining the defiler in melee.

Warped Battle cannon: After the defiler fires the battle cannon, the grown becomes tainted with chaos so strong that the csm can teleport in the center of the blast with pinpoint accuracy as if it was a beacon. Place a crater in the center of the blast and teleport the 10 csm the defiler was carrying in there.

 Whiskered wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Whiskey144, is that you with a new account from being banned?

Btw, I am serious! If I think I can model a helbrute riding a fiend! Also tbe egg sac carrying 10 marines on the defiler.

Who's that?


Also on topic. I find it hilarious that only monstrous creature that CSM got is demon prince.
Now you made me think how walker transport option would work in this game.

There are the ork walker transports, and the defiler thing is/Was an apocalsype formation or something I think. Berzerkers just kind of hanging on to it.

How about we not turn into 40k's version of over-clichéd, slap-stick Loony Toons villains?

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If CSM got an "indiscriminate fire" rule, then I want it for Guard and the Mechanicus factions!

Actually, I'm pretty sure there are some IG armies where they can call down a bombardment on their heads. (I can't remember which ones, though... DKoK, maybe?)

feldherr
That's in Siege of Vraks (the large collection edition) Renegades and Heretics. Ordnance Tyrant lets any (friendly) model with 12" that fires a weapon using Barrage or Blast ignore the "cannot clip / hit friendlies" restriction. Including firing into CC. Scatter and resolve hits as normal.

CSM Used to be defined by their play style. Now they're just SMs with broken armor, bad mechs and dinobots.

If GW ever wanted to make CSM viable and actually competitive;

1) Remove the nonsense about our murderous machines not being able to hit anything in CC because they are WS3. What kind of stupid nonsense is that? And if Im paying 20 bloody points to turn a Vehicles into a Daemonically Possessed Vehicles, it should Gain abilities equal to PotMS.

2) Make Forgefiends less damn awful. 175 Points for terribly optimized walkers that have garbage weapons due to their BS. Why even bother giving us 2 guns if statistically we're gonna hit on 4s anyways? Just give us 1 damn gun and Make it TL or something. Not to mention the Exctoplasma Cannons have one of the worst Cannon ranges in the game for what you're getting for it

3) Make Cult Marines Upgraded Basic CSM of their God when Taken with a specific Character. For instance, CSM with Mark of Slaanesh become Noise Marines if taken with a Lord. We already pay the damn tax of the Lord / Special Character. Stop making CSM players pay doubly for models just because they have special damn names.

4) Lower the Helldrake point cost to 160. It's no longer competitive in its slot now that people like myself can easily purchase FW flyers which out perform it, at lower costs and are generally more flexible. 170 Points for a Torrent Flamer that kills Marines isn't as great as it seems when I could take a Hell Blade for 115 Points with 6 TL str 7 ap 4 Rending shots. Especially when It can reposition itself D6+2" before it moves in any direction.

5) Give our Maulerfiends Squadrons of 1-3 like WWs and Vindicators got (Apparently)

6) Let Obliterators come in squadrons of 1-3 units each, capable of independently operating.

7) Make Mutilators extinct. They're crap and look terrible. They are over costed, worse versions of Chaos Terminators, and we'll be getting into those next

8) Why do my CSM Terminators suck? Termicide? Sweet, lets sacrifice 3 well painted models with Combi Plasma weapons by throwing them into reserves and hope we dont die immediately from Deep Strike, then hope we can kill 1 tank before being erased from the board by swaths of str 5+ FW spam or Guardsmen. Hell, I've killed CSM Terminators em mass with Cultists and Autoguns RELIABLY, which is sad. Give CSM the ability to take God specific gear on their Terminators. Tzeentch Termies are Brotherhood of Psykers, Khorne Termies have D6+6" Charges, Nurgle have Shrouded, Slaanesh Have Rending and +1 Initiative.

9) Remove Warp Talons. Another garbagely over costed Marine Killer we dont need, filling a spot in our rosters we can better make use of with Raptors.

10) Land Raider variants that dont involve me sinking 240$ into a Forge World hard cover book that nails me on 40$ for import charges. Here's a thought, want to sell stuff reliably and make a profit off your models? Maybe include their DAMN RULES IN YOUR GW BRAND BOOKS.

11) Stop, finally freaking STOP with the mentality that because CSM are the "Bad guys" in the universe that they should naturally be shafted over and over and over again while you coddle and baby the plethora of SM players and Eldar collectors.

This is something I ask a while ago as well and got good answers as you have I think the big ones where:
1: T6 DP to help against Insta Kill
2: Land Raider Options so you can take a full 5 terms with an HQ in it.
3: razorbacks and drop pods as Dedicated Transports


As for New models I would like to see new HelBrutes. I know thats probably not happening since they just released the Crimson slaughter model, but i hate that its non-upgradable with different weapons. I also wouldn't mind seeing a new possessed model. I don't know why but the current ones look like a drunken Hentai cartoonist made them.

GW released a multi-part helbrute kit last year .


Honestly 1st thing I'd want is for us to have something similar to Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF. Something like the rule I made in my fandex a while ago would be awesome (Fallen Astartes: Immune to Fear, may always attempt to regroup at max Ld and may re-roll sweeping advance rolls)

A seperation between Helbrutes and Dreadnoughts would be awesome. Have helbrutes be crazy and daemon possessed with lots of attacks but lower I and BS and have dreadnought be more plain, with maybe +1 WS and VotLW.

Also squadrons like vanilla marines would be awesome, as would A4 brutes/dreads.

Making Possessed and Warp Talons more like 30Ks Gal Vorbak would be welcome, as would a price decrease for our termis since SM just got one.

Also unique special and heavy weapons would be great, so that our normal weapons aren't just everything loyalists get, except missing the more powerful options that have been around since the HH because... reasons.

Too much of the wish listing here is just asking for things SM already have which to be honest is kinda lame, might as well play marines and use some of the chaos models if you want similar marine rules, units, and items.

CSM need to be given their own distinct feel and style. Some of the ideas of warp based weapons, low grade tech, etc are fantastic. GW needs to advance the CSM story line more and invent some new unique weapons:tech for CSM. In 10k years you would think some of the heretical things CSM would have done is invent new and terrible weapons, both on a small and large scale. The only inventiveness GW gives CSM credit for is slapping spikes on old tanks. I understand there are going to be parallels between the two armies, but where SM are stuck in the past technologically, that restriction shouldn't apply to CSM.

Hellbrute 4 attacks to bring it in line, no cost increase
All deamon engines bar defiler made monstrous creature, including hellbrute, this removes the pointless vector strike special rule too as fmc already have it.
Defiler 120pts
130 with av13
Complete and utter overhaul of all the marine types

Give spawn and possessed the Daemon special rule.

Also, Helbrutes and Forgefields should be MCs.

 kronk wrote:
Give spawn and possessed the Daemon special rule.

Also, Helbrutes and Forgefields should be MCs.

Maybe make demonic possession change vehicles into monstrous creatures?

Could be an interesting twist actually, like land raiders that are T7 with 4 wounds and a 2+ save.

That would finally be a reason to take Daemonic Possession.

But losing a possessed Land Raider to poison shots would be funny as feth!

riburn3 wrote:
Too much of the wish listing here is just asking for things SM already have which to be honest is kinda lame, might as well play marines and use some of the chaos models if you want similar marine rules, units, and items.

CSM need to be given their own distinct feel and style. Some of the ideas of warp based weapons, low grade tech, etc are fantastic. GW needs to advance the CSM story line more and invent some new unique weapons:tech for CSM. In 10k years you would think some of the heretical things CSM would have done is invent new and terrible weapons, both on a small and large scale. The only inventiveness GW gives CSM credit for is slapping spikes on old tanks. I understand there are going to be parallels between the two armies, but where SM are stuck in the past technologically, that restriction shouldn't apply to CSM.

Except for the part where they keep developing new an better toys XD

The rule could be a scale on front armour decides the toughness.

For example 10/11 = 5, 12 = 6, 13 = 7, 14 = 8

Then armour is determined by a vehicles rear armour

For example 10 = 4+ and 14 = 2+ (no rear between 10 and 14)

Give them demonic for 5+ invuln

GWs really messed up the rational distinction between MCs and walking vehicles... So where and when something should be one over the other isn't clear. The reasonable point of distinction should be does it have a pilot?-But then you end with Dreadknights and Tau Crisis suits where that's not the case. The other side is if it doesn't have pilot the controlling consciousness is intrinsic to the vessel... -And you end up with Daemon Engines contradicting that approach to a rational notion.

I think the Hellbrute is still just a dreadnought but when it comes to the different daemon engines I think GW should take individual approaches to each and allow some daemon engines to be "DAEMON engines" and others to be "daemon ENGINES"... Forgefiend, Maulerfiend, and Helldrakes are more the former than the latter while Defilers and Decimators are more the latter.

Here is a thoutgh.
Instead using chaos codex maybe CSM players should use space marine codex. Just cover everything in spikes.

But then people would complain that chaos has grav guns and that it isn't fair


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But then people would complain that chaos has grav guns and that it isn't fair

 kronk wrote:
Give spawn and possessed the Daemon special rule.

Also, Helbrutes and Forgefields should be MCs.

You Know that Possessed have the Deamon usr right?...

Or you are talking about Deamonic Possesion?.

I Also think that they should make a new unit type for MC that arn't creatures, but that arn't machines either, where things like Riptides, Wraithknights and Lord and Deamon Engines would fit.

Mechanical Creatures;
Treat it as an MC in regards of all the rules, add that Poisoin only work on a 6, and also that for every two Wounds they've lost roll a dice,
1; nothing happens, everything is working fine,
2) one of the machine weapons has a malfunction that the pilot try to repair quick, model cannot use a random weapon amongst his weapons for this turn,
3)A leg/thread/appandice of the machine is severly damaged, the model cannot Sprint anymore and can only move 6" max, no matter if he is a Jump type or beast type MechC.
4)An Arm/weapon system is completly destroyed, designe a random weapon the machine has equipped, this weapon is destroyed and cannot be used again.
5)The movement system of the Machine is destroyed and unrepairable, the Machine cannot move from where it stands for the rest of the game, it can only pivot in a 90* arc.
6)Core system damaged, the MC lose and extra Wound, if this wound was the last one of the MC, center the large blast template on the MC and romm to scatter, any models under the templates(friend&foe) gets a Str6 Ap5 ignore cover hit.

Models that have special rules to give back PC's to vehicles can give back Wounds to a MechCreature and repair a weapon destroyed and immobilized results.

He probably meant the daemon of X rules.

aka_mythos wrote:GWs really messed up the rational distinction between MCs and walking vehicles... So where and when something should be one over the other isn't clear. The reasonable point of distinction should be does it have a pilot?-But then you end with Dreadknights and Tau Crisis suits where that's not the case. The other side is if it doesn't have pilot the controlling consciousness is intrinsic to the vessel... -And you end up with Daemon Engines contradicting that approach to a rational notion.

There is a very clear line between them. Some things have a hull, and some things don't. IDK why it would be anything else.

GoliothOnline wrote:10) Land Raider variants that dont involve me sinking 240$ into a Forge World hard cover book that nails me on 40$ for import charges. Here's a thought, want to sell stuff reliably and make a profit off your models? Maybe include their DAMN RULES IN YOUR GW BRAND BOOKS.

Experiment 626 wrote:How about we not turn into 40k's version of over-clichéd, slap-stick Loony Toons villains?

On the other hand, Filch posts are the only ones in this thread that can be called ideas.

Nvs wrote:Especially if they introduced tiers to these marks.

For Example…
Renegade Chaos Space Marine, 15pts each, but come with a mark base. They’re also given the renegade special rule which is just fearless. For +5 pts, you could upgrade your Renegade Chaos Space Marine to a Veteran Chaos Space Marine. The veteran special rule gives you everything renegade does but also gives you something else. Elite cult units or chosen would have further upgrades. Possessed would have 2 marks from friendly gods (Khorne + Tzee or Nurgle + Slaanesh). etc.

Mark of Tzeentch
Renegade: +1 invuln save.
Veteran: +1 invuln save, and you can reroll all 1s.
Chosen: ???
Cult: Effectively makes you a rubric marine with all their special rules (which also need an update)

Renegade kind of shows you have only just started to get the attention of the chaos gods and their gifts reflect this. Veterans would be much older and have proven themselves to the chaos gods so their gifts would be more noticeable. Further still would be the cult marines or chosen.

Now I don’t know if giving your unit +1 invuln and the ability to reroll all failed saves of a 1 is fair or worth 5 pts, but it’s just to give an idea of where they could go with a system like this. Each unit is fairly expensive, but their special rules and mark make it worth it.

So I build a couple of squads of space marines, and paint them, and put them down at the deployment phase of a game. I'm kind of blanking on what about one of the squads would actually require that it can reroll 1s, which is different to the other squads that only get +1 invulnerables.

Rosebuddy wrote:If they pushed CSM to have a lot of extra kinds of consul-like champions as elite choices you could really get the flavour of searching for individual power at all costs that the faction is supposed to have. Especially if you also boosted aspiring champions to something that is actually impressive and interesting.

I think that is great. Any war band would be made out of a Lord with lesser warbands who work for him. I have worries about using them in an army. One, in other armies that have consuls or mini-ICs, the characters are not very useful because they end up having to join other squads as 100 point upgrades. If the entire army isn't built around their buffs, like 6th edition blood angels, then they are not really useful, like techmarines or lone wolves. For two, there isn't very much about elite ICs that makes it obvious that the warband is made of multiple smaller warbands.

It might just be easier to say that the troops' aspiring champions can upgrade to techmarines, apothecaries, sorcerors, etcetera.

Where would you get the idea that a former heavy weapon trooper would carry a heavy weapon? The havoc champions don't. I think the step up from being a havoc is commanding havocs, without being a havoc.

Lol! Dripping in sarcasm! I will still take it as a compliment.

pelicaniforce wrote:


I think that is great. Any war band would be made out of a Lord with lesser warbands who work for him. I have worries about using them in an army. One, in other armies that have consuls or mini-ICs, the characters are not very useful because they end up having to join other squads as 100 point upgrades. If the entire army isn't built around their buffs, like 6th edition blood angels, then they are not really useful, like techmarines or lone wolves. For two, there isn't very much about elite ICs that makes it obvious that the warband is made of multiple smaller warbands.

It might just be easier to say that the troops' aspiring champions can upgrade to techmarines, apothecaries, sorcerors, etcetera.

Where would you get the idea that a former heavy weapon trooper would carry a heavy weapon? The havoc champions don't. I think the step up from being a havoc is commanding havocs, without being a havoc.

I think you might be onto something with the Aspiring Champions in CSM squads. Being able to upgrade any Aspiring Champion to give the unit FNP or Stubborn, or be a level 1 Psyker would be very cool and useful. Havoc Champions could take an upgrade to give orders for better shooting to their squad like IG characters. Basically, a choice of different useful upgrades, depending on what unit the Champion leads. Instead of just giving them spiky equivalents of the SM stuff, they'd be made much meaner by the special rules of their unit champion, who works more like a mini-HQ. Very different from the way vanilla marines play, and VERY flavorful for the much more individualistic Chaos Space Marines. A CSM army would become a handful of stone cold badasses who've each excelled at their own chosen brand of badassery leading the less talented traitors to victory.

You are all complaing about DA wrong things.

You can have my "nifty weapons" as BA or DA, I'll take your ability to take CCW for +2pts and two special weapons.

Oh, and your terminators customization ability as well.

The book is a bit bad, but at least complain about the proper things.

I think if all of their warmachines could be upgraded to have the daemon rule for a few points, it could help a bit.
The boon table I think could use some slimming down. Right now it just has too much, and many of the options are down right silly. Bring it down to a 2D6 roll, like the warp storm, make the 7 roll +1 wound or something. Then fix up the whole "my black mace daemon prince just turned into a normal daemon prince" crap. And when a chaos lord goes daemon prince, they keep their rewards, similar to daemonkin.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I think if all of their warmachines could be upgraded to have the daemon rule for a few points, it could help a bit.
The boon table I think could use some slimming down. Right now it just has too much, and many of the options are down right silly. Bring it down to a 2D6 roll, like the warp storm, make the 7 roll +1 wound or something. Then fix up the whole "my black mace daemon prince just turned into a normal daemon prince" crap. And when a chaos lord goes daemon prince, they keep their rewards, similar to daemonkin.

Yes, please! "Oh, what's that? Looks like the Chaos gods have rewarded me for my faithful work as a Daemon Prince, slaughtering the enemy with my Black Mace! Excelle... What? My wings! My armour! Noooo!.... Khorne's sake, where did that mace go?"

Yeah...except that Deamon princes don't have the Champion of Chaos rule...

IT could still happen though. Tzeentch's boon of mutation allows it.


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Doesn't allow you to turn into a prince mind you... but everyhtign else is fair game

Yeah, but its true that the Dark Apotheosis if it stays in the next codex should be reworked like in WoC in Fantasy.

The Lord turn into a DPrince, keeps his powers, prior mutations he got during the game, artifacts and wargear(even if some become useless in the process), special rules, but he count as a kill for VP purposes.

thats something i really could life with.

its something that always terrified me, that my Kharn or Juggeraxelord turns into a DPrince, because they would be worse for obvious reasons.

Couldn't agree more. Ahriman or Abaddon are even worse off. It's so stupid.

Of course it would be even better if it wasn't random. The daemonkin version does this much better.

Some good constructive feedback in this thread imo, alas I doubt gw actually reads forums

Yeah they have a Thread-allergitities or something.

For them online communities and discussion boards are just a bunch of monkeys that like to bitch and fling feces around.

How i know its true?, because if seen and i've been bitching and whinning real hard since CSm codex 4th Ed on boards that by now they should know what people want, and what they don't want to see in a CSM codex, if they would be inclined to even just open one of those countless threads, and see how things really are, but still, here we are with what we have..., like usual.

Don't know if it's been said yet, but introduce some of the hh units too, rampagers, red butchers, cataphractii terminators etc. Legion specific units too, this would show a clear distinction between traitor chapters and the legion, chapters get things like land speeders and what the dinobots, legions get the hh legion units but with marks and stuff, that will cause the sale of more forge world, more money and make the chaos players happier.

Never happen in a million years.

Yeah always amazes me that SM finds Old-new gak in their vaults.

But we cannot have the true Old gak that would be usefull, instead we have the Old gak no ones wants...

It's always amused me that we're supposed to believe the moment a loyalist chapter goes renegade they go down to their armories lock up some of their gear and break the glass on the emergency stash of combi-bolters.

 Formosa wrote:
Don't know if it's been said yet, but introduce some of the hh units too, rampagers, red butchers, cataphractii terminators etc. Legion specific units too, this would show a clear distinction between traitor chapters and the legion, chapters get things like land speeders and what the dinobots, legions get the hh legion units but with marks and stuff, that will cause the sale of more forge world, more money and make the chaos players happier.

Never happen in a million years.

I definitely agree! I think that Chaos does get some of the HH vehicles but it needs to be extended to infantry as well.

It would be nice if we got a Traitor Guard codex, or at least got some rules for Traitor Guard in the Chaos Marines Codex.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Where would you get the idea that a former heavy weapon trooper would carry a heavy weapon? The havoc champions don't. I think the step up from being a havoc is commanding havocs, without being a havoc.

The idea is just that they've gotten really, really good at gunning things down after thousands of years of doing so. We've got all sorts of close combat characters with that trained-for-ages flavour so why not have a heavy weapons IC?


Giving aspiring champions the specialisations is a cleaner idea, though, and gives you more reason to take basic CSM troops.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Yeah...except that Deamon princes don't have the Champion of Chaos rule...

Oops... so they don't.

Should we write a complain letter to GW?


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Should we write a complain letter to GW? Or better, wrtie down petition and get some signatures?

I dunno if it is sarcasm or if you're serious...

This time I am serious.

I am awaer it wouldn't accomplish too much but still how community may bring their attention to thees issues.

GW reads forums... to make sure people are not sharing copies of the rules!

Emails never hurt! Remember, people white letters and send emails to politicians, and sometimes that gets stuff done. You can't be much worse off than a politician!

Well, you can do it if you want, i know that it doesn't work, at least there is no sign or anything that it works, at least 3 times a year someone propose a community letter or something, each time its the same results, nothing.

Anyway i'll be over there enjoying my copy of "the talon of Horus" that i finally got today.

You know what would be great? Getting the Eldar treatment and the codex whriters actually changing the current models we have to fit the game better.

Defilers becoming super heavy walkers for instance. Move them up to 6 HP and front + side AV13 like Soul Grinders. (Who should also become SHW.) The models are already gigantic. Give them the wraithknight treatment.

Soul Grinders could be gargantuan creature daemons though so they don't have to deal with haywire spam.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
You know what would be great? Getting the Eldar treatment and the codex whriters actually changing the current models we have to fit the game better.

Defilers becoming super heavy walkers for instance. Move them up to 6 HP and front + side AV13 like Soul Grinders. (Who should also become SHW.) The models are already gigantic. Give them the wraithknight treatment.

Um, no... Defliers/Grinders are on the larger size scale of things for 'normal' 40k models, but they're still tiny compared to the likes of a Wraithknight or Imperial Knight.

Here is a picture of a defiler and a Knight side by side...
While the defiler obviously isn't as tall it has a significant portion that sticks out in the back and then it has a very large span to its legs. While it is smaller than a Knight it occupies a bounding volume very similar in size. At the same time Knights aren't even the smallest superheavy. I realize they're just Forgeworld but some of the superheavy tanks they produce are very close in size to the land raider and defiler is certainly larger than that.

Whether you believe it should or shouldn't be its physical profile is a big liability in playing with it and in the least maybe it deserves something bordering on superheavy status even if doesn't get that.

Make the chaos lords, when they get turned into deamon princes, just get bonuses to their stats, thus keeping everything they have.
It'll actually be a boon! Imagine that!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
You know what would be great? Getting the Eldar treatment and the codex whriters actually changing the current models we have to fit the game better.

Defilers becoming super heavy walkers for instance. Move them up to 6 HP and front + side AV13 like Soul Grinders. (Who should also become SHW.) The models are already gigantic. Give them the wraithknight treatment.

Um, no... Defliers/Grinders are on the larger size scale of things for 'normal' 40k models, but they're still tiny compared to the likes of a Wraithknight or Imperial Knight.

Ill be as abrupt in my statements from now on. "Um, YES. Soul grinders and Defilers are as large is not slightly bigger than Land Raiders. The size proportions and comparisons to Wraith Knights (As most Eldar players and Knight Players now use as a the staple for judging whether or not something should or shouldnt be considered super heavy) Personally, I don't care for such thinking. Nor do a metric tonn of other people whom have wanted that change for a ridiculously long time.. So Ill just say yes, and ignore the fact you didnt bother comparing the models at all.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
You know what would be great? Getting the Eldar treatment and the codex whriters actually changing the current models we have to fit the game better.

Defilers becoming super heavy walkers for instance. Move them up to 6 HP and front + side AV13 like Soul Grinders. (Who should also become SHW.) The models are already gigantic. Give them the wraithknight treatment.

Um, no... Defliers/Grinders are on the larger size scale of things for 'normal' 40k models, but they're still tiny compared to the likes of a Wraithknight or Imperial Knight.

Ill be as abrupt in my statements from now on. "Um, YES. Soul grinders and Defilers are as large is not slightly bigger than Land Raiders. The size proportions and comparisons to Wraith Knights (As most Eldar players and Knight Players now use as a the staple for judging whether or not something should or shouldnt be considered super heavy) Personally, I don't care for such thinking. Nor do a metric tonn of other people whom have wanted that change for a ridiculously long time.. So Ill just say yes, and ignore the fact you didnt bother comparing the models at all.

I'd rather, Daemons especially, not end up with all of our best stuff slotted into the LoW category.
Grinders going LoW status would put them as the smallest by a large margine. Not to mention it would likely lead GW to decide to jack the price of the things up to at least $115 a pop!

If Chaos is going to get LoW options, I'd rather it be left to the likes of;
- Abaddon
- Lord of Skulls
- Named Greaters such as Kairos & Ku'gath (note: please GW, add N'kari finally for ****'s sake!)
- Silver Towers of Tzeentch
- Nurgle Plague Tower
- some kind of giant Slaaneshii pain engine

There's plenty of stuff from the background that's far more befitting SH/Gargantuan Creature status than the likes of Defliers/Grinders and Greater Daemons.

I am surprised that CSM have not been done yet, or rumoured to be soon. It might be that they don't sell so well so they are not on the fast track or that GW is giving them a very serious think.

Personally I would like to see them move away from being spikey marines and look to see:

- More mutations and use of mutations as upgrades.

- viable mono-god formations. The Khorne Daemonkin are, in effect, a big Khornate formation combining elements of CSM and Daemons into one.

- Changes to CSM. let's have them in grades from ancients (who would be very tough indeed and thousands of years old), through other grades down to recently turned.

- A wider range of heavy and special weapons for CSM.

Personally I would like to see mono-god armies as the norm. I grew up in early 40K when the gods were enemies and the two opposed combinations of Khorne-Slaanesh and Nurgle-Tzeentch were forbidden. I want to be able to field a mono-god army without penalty. However, I still think we'll see four god books and possibly no CSM codex, with a Khorne Daemonkin equivalent for all the gods. I would personally prefer that, then people could ally them if they wanted to.

Isengard wrote:
I am surprised that CSM have not been done yet, or rumoured to be soon. It might be that they don't sell so well so they are not on the fast track or that GW is giving them a very serious think.

Personally I would like to see them move away from being spikey marines and look to see:

- More mutations and use of mutations as upgrades.

- viable mono-god formations. The Khorne Daemonkin are, in effect, a big Khornate formation combining elements of CSM and Daemons into one.

- Changes to CSM. let's have them in grades from ancients (who would be very tough indeed and thousands of years old), through other grades down to recently turned.

- A wider range of heavy and special weapons for CSM.

Personally I would like to see mono-god armies as the norm. I grew up in early 40K when the gods were enemies and the two opposed combinations of Khorne-Slaanesh and Nurgle-Tzeentch were forbidden. I want to be able to field a mono-god army without penalty. However, I still think we'll see four god books and possibly no CSM codex, with a Khorne Daemonkin equivalent for all the gods. I would personally prefer that, then people could ally them if they wanted to.

I think we'll see CSM stay as its own book, there is too much not in Daemonkin to do otherwise. Your notion of mutations as upgrades would certainly push it in the direction I see GW refocusing it, as an undivided centric book.

As a second hand note I want new sculpts for CSM

If it hasn't been stated already I think a page like in the SM Codex that details Chapter Tactics. For instance, Iron Warriors could take some sort of siege rule or Alpha Legion could make units Infiltrate. That was one page in a codex that I think would add a lot for people who want something for chaos undivided or renegade legions. I think it might be worth adding in some flavor for non-founding legions like The Red Corsairs.

I think, like with all other recent codecies, there will be formations that may bring in the mono-god 'dexes we seem to be getting. I think getting something like the Skyhammer formation would be nice. Granted we don't have drop pods (and though I'd love some, I sincerely doubt they'll add them) but using Warp Talons who successfully used their blind on a unit can then assault. It adds a proper amount of risk/reward.

I did have a thought that I see mirrored here, which is that there will probably still continue to be a Codex: Chaos Space Marines since the Daemonkin books do not have all the named characters. If that were the case then Kharn would have surely been in the last one. I have been making the same jokes for years that Chaos Space Marines are into skeuomorphism and that is the reason they refuse to use anything new. I mean it's not like there are dozens of stories of traitors scavenging armor, weapons, or vehicles from the enemy. Again, as brought up, that could be easily written around by using daemon weapons or warp-powered weapons. I'm reminded of things like the Daemonshell from Apocalypse or the daemon weapons from the 4th edition book that changed depending on the mark you chose.

I'm not looking for an overpowered codex, just something that is interesting. Well, and maybe a few new sculpts.

Legion Tactics for those who runs a honest of the Mill legion Force.

Warbands tactics, for Warbands that are affiliated/indenpendant/nothing to do with the Legions.

I mean Marines have their Chapter tactics and Combat Discipline.

So their could be space for Legion Tactics, that grants rules for a particular Legion, but you won't have much room for anything not Legion related.

And then Warbands, wich would be more flexible and allow for more things.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Legion Tactics for those who runs a honest of the Mill legion Force.

Warbands tactics, for Warbands that are affiliated/indenpendant/nothing to do with the Legions.

I mean Marines have their Chapter tactics and Combat Discipline.

So their could be space for Legion Tactics, that grants rules for a particular Legion, but you won't have much room for anything not Legion related.

And then Warbands, wich would be more flexible and allow for more things.

I understand the desire for "Legion tactics" but I don't think they necessarily have to be legion specific... just warband tactics where each is characterized by a particular legion would be a step up. Otherwise I feel the only hopes for "Legion" tactics is if GW sets out to do them separate of all other Chaos marine armies.

This isn't a short term solution, but in the long run is probably the best bet for the sort of legion specific rules with the level of detail some would like to see: as FW progresses through the Heresy they'll eventually reach the "Great Scouring" and have legion rules that are close to what the legions of the 40k era are like. It seems to me GW and FW are pushing for more interplay and crossplay with their rules and models, particularly if rumors of plastic Heresy Era models are true... So FW covering the "Scouring" era is a good way to transition the rules together and walk people back into 40k after they're done covering the Heresy.

This is what I'm hoping for. Let forge world do the traitor legions with 40k in mind to some degree. We will be missing stuff like Defilers and daemon engines and so, but the infantry should be pretty darn close to what they are in 40k.
Then maybe later they can update IA 13 or a new equivalent to include those units in their traitor legion lists in games of 40k, but with the relic rule.
It would mean we still don't get cool warp weapons and all, but I believe this would be the best we can realistically hope for. Word bearers are well on their way after all.

Not saying GW can't do something cool, but the odds are stacked against them.

GW just has the agenda of everything being available to every flavor of an army regardless of what makes sense. This leads to a lot of bland choices and a handful of units that dominate their FOC and become the defacto choices, a lot of choices being untaken.

When it comes to Defilers and Daemon engines... If FW were to handle them sorta how they've done the Heresy... it'd make sense for those to be part of a Dark Mechanicum list that could be allied with any Legion force.

That would work, but I thought they simply didn't have any back then. The first daemon engines were defilers to my knowledge and those were commissioned by abaddon after he created the Black Legion.

Unless your talking about a separate book featuring dark mechanicum outside of the HH. Which would be awesome in it's own right.

Roknar wrote:
That would work, but I thought they simply didn't have any back then. The first daemon engines were defilers to my knowledge and those were commissioned by abaddon after he created the Black Legion.

Unless your talking about a separate book featuring dark mechanicum outside of the HH. Which would be awesome in it's own right.

Well the fluff has the Defiler show up in M31 around when Horus forms the Black Legion... M31 is also when the Great Scouring is going on... So if FW were to cover that era in a broad stroke, rather than battle by battle, than Dark Mechanicum and Black Legion would have them.

Hmm, well then here's to hope

Personnaly a Faq where you can give Legacies of Ruin to Deamon Engines would be nice...

I really enjoy the Idea of a Maulerfiend with hatred and prefered ennemy...

Yea that never quite made sense to me. Especially considering how possesion makes most stuff worse. And make possesion optional on dreadclaws. a 1/6 chance to instantly loose your dread is just not viable to me. Or make it so dreads can't be eaten or loose a hullpoint at least.

And if we keep possesion, I'd like to see possession for various gods. a Khorne possessed rhino should allow you to assault for example.

A Possessed vehicle should mimic the stats and rules of the Deamon possessing it.

Khorne; WS and BS+1, +1A, Furious Charge for example.

i never got why When you put a Deamon in a vehicle he becomes terrible, when they wants us to believe that this is Strong has hell...

I suppose it could do different thigns for walkers and non walkers. Although BS+1 would still be pretty nice for any vehicle.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
A Possessed vehicle should mimic the stats and rules of the Deamon possessing it.

Khorne; WS and BS+1, +1A, Furious Charge for example.

i never got why When you put a Deamon in a vehicle he becomes terrible, when they wants us to believe that this is Strong has hell...

Personally, the easiest/cleanest thing to do would simply be to add the 'Daemon of X' rule as an upgrade to the basic Daemonic Possession...