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I would like to see much more involvment of the warp. That could pretty much be their speciality. Weapons and wargear.

Like maybe you could loose transport capacity in a a rhino in exchange for some kinda warpfield generator. That has various effects on units in it's vicinity. And then let's say csm have some kind of armywide rule :"Warptainted".
Then it could give warptainted units a cover save or so due to reality visibly warping around that field. And against other units it might cause dangerous terrain or so. Maybe you could kick it into overdrive once per game for an enhanced effect or causing a nova of some kind.
That way you can have 10+ csm in one unit and still benefit from the rhino. Along with additional special/heavy weapons, because with that many you could very well still fire the heavy weapons while moving the rest of the unit.

Or special rules that affect the unit while the champion is still alive, since they enjoy some degree of protection from the gods. Or fearless on the champion only, so that only when he dies you risk running. While keeping the whole must challenge thing, so yo can't hide him. I personally like that rule as it's quite fluffy to me. They're kinda like commissars on steroids. At the same time though they MUST lead forward relentlessly or risk being considered weak and some other marines taking his position forcefully. Which could also be modeled into the rules. Like when you fail a morale check, then something happens. A bit like atsknf but differently.

It might also be nice to have the ability to lock down an objective with some kind of warp rift. That only objective secured units have the know-how to capture. which buys you some time and let's you be more aggressive, since you don't need an actual unit on the objective. And it also makes objective secured more attractive. Or maybe some option to defile an objective for some effect. Like locking it down for a turn while you move on or booby trapping it. Or letting daemons not scatter around the objective.
I really like the effect of the dimensional key, but it's nigh impossible to actually use. Although I've occasionally been quite lucky with the dangerous terrain bubble, as it causes tests even on pile in moves and charges (not sure if that's actually in the rules though, but that's how we play it anyway.)

Or maybe you could have some kind of warp bubble that let's you shunt across the battelfield. Like Thsouand sons in the fluff that kinda just appear out of nowhere, which I don't see as deepstriking, but more like reality bending so that two points that are seemingly far apart are actually connected. Suddenly a that 20 man csm unit is right there in your face. It would allow csm to be much more independant of vehicles, which would be nice given that they're supposed to come in relatively large numbers. and would tie in with the whole low tech/maintenance thing.

It would be cool if they could convey an idea that your not just fighting csm. The very concept of reality will be challenged. The longer the battle wages on, the more influence the chaos gods will exert, as the struggle draws their attention. I suppose that would be similar to dark eldar though, but maybe it could be done in such a way that they still feel quite different. Already you have very different units, and maybe you get different effects/buffs based on what you do, rather than the turn number.
It could be done such that word bearers would want to defile X things to gain better effects, while other legions gain effects from killing imperium of man stuff or whatever. With different tables, that aren't necessarily locked in. Black Legion also has it's fair share of bloody rituals after all. Maybe those tables would have tiers and only certain legions can progress further or so.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Konrax wrote:

Hopefully the tzeentch one isn't garbage, otherwise I will stick with my 2012 csm codex.

I just hope its not some weird false-start. At different times GW has singled out specific sub-factions and given them individual attention, but it was never a guarantee that other sub-factions of the same army would get done. I hope they do give us a Tzneetch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh daemon kin codex. GW's just so hush hush about what they do and they've made no promises, Khorne Daemonkin could be the Iyanden or Catachan codex of Chaos... promising fork in the road that leads to a dead end.

I would doubt that Khorne Daemonkin is going to be a dead-end minidex. The book has gotten a LOT of traction from what I've been seeing, given that it's a lot more flexibile than people seem to believe at first.

Also people seem to enjoy the Blood Tithe system, so I could see something similar to the Blood Tithe system or possibly Canticles of the Omnissiah(better buffs based upon the number of units "worshiping" that turn)making an appearance in the "main" CSM book whenever it gets redone.

I think one thing which could be really cool is the idea of defiling an objective. Maybe if an ObjSec CSM unit is in contact with an objective for an entire game turn without being contested by anyone else (ObjSec or not), it can now only count as being held by CSM. I think there have been similar things in Apocalypse before, but I can't remember what they did off the top of my head.

 -Shrike- wrote:
I think one thing which could be really cool is the idea of defiling an objective. Maybe if an ObjSec CSM unit is in contact with an objective for an entire game turn without being contested by anyone else (ObjSec or not), it can now only count as being held by CSM. I think there have been similar things in Apocalypse before, but I can't remember what they did off the top of my head.

I think that might be a little much outside of Apocalypse(it was tied to Stratagems IIRC), but something along the lines of an additional set of objectives that are placed by the enemy player outside of their deployment zone to represent a "holy relic" that CSM can get bonus VPs for controlling would be appropriate.

I kinda like that "defiled objective" idea, but yeah that might be too much. It might just be easier to say that a CSM unit with "Objective Defiled" can't be contested by a units with "Objective Secured"... forcing other armies to scrape the chaos taint off of an objective.

That's why I suggested it would only last for one turn. That way if you don't want anybody else to get it you would still have to stay close and would work similar to what aka_mythos suggested. Though I suppose there could be a way to undo the effect. Maybe the efffect could be linked to the aspiring champion? kill him and your good? Puts the focus on the leaders mattering again.

Of course there should be some non objective aspect of that too. Otherwise it's just one of those useless rules if you don't happen to have objectives. Sacrifing units defeated in close combat comes to mind but I kinda doubt GW introducing that mechanic. Not if they want to keep kid friendly (which I think is a mistake but that's a different issue).

It was a Chaos stratagem for Apoc, the Objective was destroyed, and none of the 2 armies could claim it once if was Defiled.

CSM would get the VPs for this objective, then the objective would be destroyed.

There is something similare with KDK, Altar of Gore objective card.

You gain a VP if you destroy an ennemy unit that control an objective token.
You gain D3 VP, if one of your unit then control the same objective after destroying the ennemy unit.

I also personnaly feel that cultists should have infiltrator and a Kamikaze rule or a Indiscrimnate fire rule.

Kamikaze; for each Cultists model that lose a Wound,roll a dice, on a 4+ center the explosion template on one of the models, all models (friend&foe) is hit by D3 Str4 Ap5 ignore cover hits, if others Cultists models loose a Wound because of this, then rethrow another dice, on a 4+, the explosive device goes off and the hits are then resolved, note that only one device at a time can go off, do this until there is no more Cultists or until one of the explosive device doesn't go off.

Indiscrimnate fire; even if a Cultists unit is engaged in CC with an ennemy unit, friendly CSM units can still shoot at the ennemy target, just like if they where not engaged in CC, for each succesfull save the ennemy unit take, the hits are resolved Vs the cultists unit instead.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
It was a Chaos stratagem for Apoc, the Objective was destroyed, and none of the 2 armies could claim it once if was Defiled.

CSM would get the VPs for this objective, then the objective would be destroyed.

There is something similare with KDK, Altar of Gore objective card.

You gain a VP if you destroy an ennemy unit that control an objective token.
You gain D3 VP, if one of your unit then control the same objective after destroying the ennemy unit.

I also personnaly feel that cultists should have infiltrator and a Kamikaze rule or a Indiscrimnate fire rule.

Kamikaze; for each Cultists model that lose a Wound,roll a dice, on a 4+ center the explosion template on one of the models, all models (friend&foe) is hit by D3 Str4 Ap5 ignore cover hits, if others Cultists models loose a Wound because of this, then rethrow another dice, on a 4+, the explosive device goes off and the hits are then resolved, note that only one device at a time can go off, do this until there is no more Cultists or until one of the explosive device doesn't go off.

Indiscrimnate fire; even if a Cultists unit is engaged in CC with an ennemy unit, friendly CSM units can still shoot at the ennemy target, just like if they where not engaged in CC, for each succesfull save the ennemy unit take, the hits are resolved Vs the cultists unit instead.

The Badab War has a rather similar set of rules about indiscriminate fire... I'll look it up later. Personally, I think it would make more sense to say that if you miss on your to hit roll, resolve the attack against the cultists instead. Similar to Kharn's rule, but in shooting rather than close combat. Obviously, for blast weapons, you just resolve as normal.

A rule like Kamikaze is never going to happen again...like ever lol.
Varying shades of indiscriminate fire though would be cool. Like the Forge World one. Iron Warriors would probably get something closer to forge world while other legions get a lighter version of it.

If CSM got an "indiscriminate fire" rule, then I want it for Guard and the Mechanicus factions!

Well I will say that in my opinion main CSM rule book should be split into two,

One rule book about recent renegades and lesser war-bands, they should have access to most recent loyalist weapons, minus the artifacts and some special rules replaced by others. Second book about legions and their more tainted gear, horus heresy era technology and so on.

Personally I don't see much use for razorback in CSM army. I would prefer to have open topped rhino with expanded transport space. That model could be even done with current rhino sprue.
Also I think slaanesh psychic disciplines are not that bad and I wouldn't like them to go.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If CSM got an "indiscriminate fire" rule, then I want it for Guard and the Mechanicus factions!

Actually, I'm pretty sure there are some IG armies where they can call down a bombardment on their heads. (I can't remember which ones, though... DKoK, maybe?)

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:
I think one thing which could be really cool is the idea of defiling an objective. Maybe if an ObjSec CSM unit is in contact with an objective for an entire game turn without being contested by anyone else (ObjSec or not), it can now only count as being held by CSM. I think there have been similar things in Apocalypse before, but I can't remember what they did off the top of my head.

I think that might be a little much outside of Apocalypse(it was tied to Stratagems IIRC), but something along the lines of an additional set of objectives that are placed by the enemy player outside of their deployment zone to represent a "holy relic" that CSM can get bonus VPs for controlling would be appropriate.

I just saw that space marine formation with devs and assault marines....and then there was the whole warp charges on 2+ thing...and a bazzillion free razorbacks.


Free units with mechanicum and so on and so on. I was thinking that outright stealing objectives would be too strong...but I'm not convinced anymore. It seems there is no such thing as too strong anymore. Like literally not and I'm not even trying to be funny. I'm getting the impression that if they think it would be cool fluffwise, they'll just do it. You could still get VPs from non objective markers, so it's totally fair...........

I wouldn't even be surprised if they came up with something along the lines of, remove a unit of cultists from play and on a 3+ you can remove a enemy unit from the game. If you fail, then bring in a new unit from reserves next turn. Gargantuan creatures are fine, they only take d3 wounds. Necrons can still use reanimation protocols. Everythings still fine.

** And just for clarity: Either would be bad, but at this point I honestly wouldn't put either past GW.**

Roknar wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:
I think one thing which could be really cool is the idea of defiling an objective. Maybe if an ObjSec CSM unit is in contact with an objective for an entire game turn without being contested by anyone else (ObjSec or not), it can now only count as being held by CSM. I think there have been similar things in Apocalypse before, but I can't remember what they did off the top of my head.

I think that might be a little much outside of Apocalypse(it was tied to Stratagems IIRC), but something along the lines of an additional set of objectives that are placed by the enemy player outside of their deployment zone to represent a "holy relic" that CSM can get bonus VPs for controlling would be appropriate.

I just saw that space marine formation with devs and assault marines....and then there was the whole warp charges on 2+ thing...and a bazzillion free razorbacks.


Free units with mechanicum and so on and so on.

Mechanicus doesn't get "free units".

They get free UPGRADES to those units; i.e. things like Plasma Guns or Omnispex.

True, thanks for correcting me.. I was in outburst mode


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's still a trend I don't agree with though.

I don't believe that there will be a CSM Codex. There will be 4 X Daemonkin codexes that you can ally with each other.

Being able to kit them out like a Space Wolves Pack would be good (ie, 1 special weapon per 5, a power weapon/ fist, a plasma pistol, and THEN the Champion)

Most of all, I want the flavour of the 3.5 Codex though. My GOD, that was amazing. It's why I started playing CSM in the first place.

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't believe that there will be a CSM Codex. There will be 4 X Daemonkin codexes that you can ally with each other.

That would be stupid as feth. What about the masses of non-aligned Legions, Renegade Chapters & Warbands? Or else how massively over-restrictive it would become?

Experiment 626 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't believe that there will be a CSM Codex. There will be 4 X Daemonkin codexes that you can ally with each other.

That would be stupid as feth. What about the masses of non-aligned Legions, Renegade Chapters & Warbands? Or else how massively over-restrictive it would become?

Yeah, I'm not buying it either. What would happen to the Black Legion poster boys? Why would they choose to split nine legions and countless renegades into four books, which in total represent less than half of the Chaos Space Marines? They're never going to get rid of the unaligned CSM, it would practically be suicide.

And GW is the poster child for making sense right? lol

But I really doubt that the daemonkin books are an attempt to cover even the god specific legions.
Khorne daemonkin is pretty bad at representing world eaters for example. No Kharn, no rules for veterans, no siege engines. And well, no awesome "new" units like defiler transports. With csm allies, it holds up pretty well as a legion, but as a stand alone codex its kinda meh for that purpose. And taking allies means less bloodtithe points so its doubly meh.

My hope is that they keep csm, but give it a proper identity. Like Lost and the damned or renegade astartes or whatever. Just as long as it's not one single book trying to shoehorn everything chaos into it. I'd still prefer that (with no legion support) over the book we currently have.

Either way though we (probably) won't be getting a new chaos dex until they're done with all the daemonkin books. Whatever that dex turns out to be. And that will hopefully not be a csm dex as we know it. Or all those first born sacrifices will finally pay off and we get a series of legion books.

I really doubt that the Deamonkin treatment will go on.

I mean the Deamonkin thematic is that they have such devotion for deamons, that they praise them as deities and do anything they can for them to come into the Universe, through Carnage, Murder and destruction.

I don't see the other Cults be really in the same state of mind.

Also don't forget that each time we think we knows what GW plan is, or what they will do next, we are 100000000 miles off the mark.

They released Supplement Codexes, that needed the parent codex to work, now there is no more Supplement codex, they are their own codex, even if there is only like 4 units in it( Space Clowns, Ad Mech).

They released Black Legion, so we where expecting to see another Legion, and we got a Renegade Chapter, we where waiting for more Supplements for CSM, 2 years later we only have KDK, evne though its a nice book, its not what we waited for so long.

So yeah, the lesson here is, that you cannot know fore sure what GW will do next, even though all the rumors i really din't think they would release such a Niche army has the Ad Mech.

i know lots of people wanted AdMech, but usually they are older people that have been playing since 2nd or 3rd Ed, or even RT, most of the younger ones din't really care for AdMech until FW started to make models for HH.

In our group there is but 2 people who really wanted for years AdMech books, so its not that popular, at least not much over here, but GW still did it.

So in short, i dunno what to expect or to be sure about anything anymore when it comes to GW.

Heck i don't even know if the guys at GW knows what to expect themselfs...

Experiment 626 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't believe that there will be a CSM Codex. There will be 4 X Daemonkin codexes that you can ally with each other.

That would be stupid as feth. What about the masses of non-aligned Legions, Renegade Chapters & Warbands? Or else how massively over-restrictive it would become?

It would be stupid, but around a year ago (give or take) there were rumors floating around that the future of CSM wasn't one big dex, but four god specific marine-demon hybrids.

Considering we've gotten a Khorne one, and another seems to be on the way...

 morganfreeman wrote:
It would be stupid, but around a year ago (give or take) there were rumors floating around that the future of CSM wasn't one big dex, but four god specific marine-demon hybrids.

Considering we've gotten a Khorne one, and another seems to be on the way...

Ughhh, please say it ain't so! I have some Word Bearers and some Iron Warriors. Tell me they won't be left out...

I'd really love to not need two separate books for them both...

Lord Corellia wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
It would be stupid, but around a year ago (give or take) there were rumors floating around that the future of CSM wasn't one big dex, but four god specific marine-demon hybrids.

Considering we've gotten a Khorne one, and another seems to be on the way...

Ughhh, please say it ain't so! I have some Word Bearers and some Iron Warriors. Tell me they won't be left out...

I'd really love to not need two separate books for them both...

The rumor is currently for a Tzeentch Daemonkin book, which wouldn't have anything to do with Thousand Sons.
The rumors of "four god specific marine-daemon hybrid" books came out not "around a year ago", but rather a few months ago when Khorne Daemonkin came out.


As it stands, Khorne Daemonkin? It's actually a really interesting book to play and play against. It's not meant to be a "Legion book" but rather it's meant to be a book focused upon a "Cult" army. With Khorne as well it is a very thematic book since there are no real summoners for the Khorne devotees but rather they just butcher and butcher until they finally weaken reality enough that the Bloody Host can pour through.

Make the basic CSM cheaper, and have a good way to deliver them into the fight, something similar to drop pods?

Being able to take 2x special weapons is a real bonus and something I wish that SM tacs could take, but CSM's with the upgrades that make them work just gets too pricey...

Access to divination on the sorcerer HAS to happen now, and that would boost their utility 10 fold.

Maybe Legion doctrines would be nice and pretty fluffy aswell, buying termis in groups of 5 and cheaper.

Tbh you could wish list for hours for the things that would fix the CSM book, but I would look on the bright side with Khorne Daemonkin not being a flop there IS hope on the horizon.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
I really doubt that the Deamonkin treatment will go on.

I mean the Deamonkin thematic is that they have such devotion for deamons, that they praise them as deities and do anything they can for them to come into the Universe, through Carnage, Murder and destruction.

I don't see the other Cults be really in the same state of mind.

Depends on what you mean by daemonkin treatment. As far as I'm concerned Khorne daemonkin is synonymous with codex Bloodthirster. And they have 3 more greater daemons to release. Soooo yea. At the very least it looks like we're getting tzeentch daemonkin. And I'm really curious what they're going to do with that. I agree that making the other codices carbon copies of the khorne daemonkin in terms of fluff would be pretty awkward even for csm standards. But I can't really think of a whole lot of other reasons to center a codex around a greater daemon.

Of course they could surprise us all and pull a reverse crimson slaughter and give us a Thousand Son codex. Weirder things have happened.

 Kanluwen wrote:



As it stands, Khorne Daemonkin? It's actually a really interesting book to play and play against. It's not meant to be a "Legion book" but rather it's meant to be a book focused upon a "Cult" army. With Khorne as well it is a very thematic book since there are no real summoners for the Khorne devotees but rather they just butcher and butcher until they finally weaken reality enough that the Bloody Host can pour through.

I'm talking about a wholly different one. It floated around a bit roughly a year ago (I remember because it was at the same time as the Ork dex was on the horizon), and fell out of sight there after.

It's doubtlessly resurfaced / new ones have come about in the wake of Khorne Demonkin, but I'm talking about a wholly different beast here. Thanks for being so dismissive though, every time I read one of your posts I feel even less inclined to repeat that mistake in the future.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:



As it stands, Khorne Daemonkin? It's actually a really interesting book to play and play against. It's not meant to be a "Legion book" but rather it's meant to be a book focused upon a "Cult" army. With Khorne as well it is a very thematic book since there are no real summoners for the Khorne devotees but rather they just butcher and butcher until they finally weaken reality enough that the Bloody Host can pour through.

I'm talking about a wholly different one. It floated around a bit roughly a year ago (I remember because it was at the same time as the Ork dex was on the horizon), and fell out of sight there after.

It's doubtlessly resurfaced / new ones have come about in the wake of Khorne Demonkin, but I'm talking about a wholly different beast here. Thanks for being so dismissive though, every time I read one of your posts I feel even less inclined to repeat that mistake in the future.

Call it dismissive if you want(it wasn't my intent); but the only rumors I can recall in regards to a "Daemon/Marine hybrid books" began surfacing after KDK released.

There were rumors about Legion books that cropped up after the Ork book released; but most of them were REALLY wishlisty. I mean, we're talking about rumors where Kharibdyss Assault Pods were a Dedicated Transport option and you would have the ability to field Chosen-equivalents as Troops.

Chaos definitely needs more Warp or Psychic capabilities. We WORSHIP the warp. We should be the best psykers in the game.

Its probably been mentioned, but warp gates/ds for everthing.
Provided you have the requisite sorcerer tax or something.
Tzeench get Eldar powers.
Khorne gets some move and assault rule, pass ld, charge or fail and resolve the combat amongst the unit.
Slaanesh gets a +3/5 move.
Nurgle, hmmm. Everything thing with in 8" -1 across the enemy stat board, except for wounds, as their bodys are assaulted by ravaged by disease.
Undivided get weapon/vehicle options from the new Codex Ultramarines.