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 BlaxicanX wrote:
Wish listing aside, the only things CSM actually *need* to be decent are points drops and more delivery options.

...And some unique toys of our own, rather than just the crappiest sections of the Loyalist's armoury.

It'd be cool if they gave CSM units Volkite weapons.

It would be something different, anyways.

Assualt Rhinos would be good to, seeing as how so much of the dandies CSM are given are assault oriented.

Yes all this assault and only one land raider varient to choose from

MarsNZ wrote:

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:

Make heldrakes a tad bit more expensive, but only a tad bit.

Why? They're nowhere near what they used to be. Baleflamer is scary against MEQ, hades gun is just awful. Consider the Vendetta costs the same in points.

Well considering that we are actually considering giving ourselves "different" war gear than the loyalists we need something to silence their crying so GW doesn't immediately give them "sanctified daemon bolters" has all of the CSM stuff, but is master-crafted!

More Changes:

Chosen are BS or WS 5 (You decide before battle) DOES NOT COST EXTRA POINTS!

Possessed are tough 5 NO POINTS INCREASE!

All Chaos vehicles can buy FNP and a daemon-save

Cultists can purchase suicide bombs

Cultists can purchase cheap heavy weapons

Chaos Boon table put back into KDK

Berzerkers have HOW on the roll of an 8 to charge

Berzerkers get FNP through the purchase of "Butchers nails" any berzerker squad may buy this even KDK berzerkers and if you say that breaks the fluff look at the book and read the lore

Plague marines get shrouded

Thousand Sons get an ability in which if they kill an enemy squad or kill an enemy character they get a new psychic power to the maximum of 3 total

Noise Marines cause -1 WS and -1 BS of all non MOS models in a 12 in radius. So much drugs in the air it makes everyone delusional

Can't stress this enough... Berzerkers get free chain axes

Noise marine's sonic blasters can purchase the pure pain special rule that causes all models within a 6in radius of the noise marines when firing doom sirens to have -2 leadership

Still confused why KDK doesn't have dirge casters? Anyone?

Giving marks to vehicles has a different chart now

MOS: d3 extra attacks in melee + old thing

MOT: +5 invul

MOK: All ram damage is +2 strength or for walkers HOW is +2 strength + old thing

MON: Shrouded and all armor sides are +1 to a maximum of 14, so no armor 15 LRs

We can now shoot into combat that has only cultists and enemy troops in it. Roll a d6 on the roll of 1-3 cultist hit on the roll of 4-6 enemy hit.

All squads may purchase a mutation for the whole squad, but champion may still buy mutations for cheaper for himself.

More cultist options, please, I want cultist armies to be a thing.

Overall game changes: 2+ invuls no longer exist NO EXCEPTIONS!

Ap 2/1 is extremely rare

Armor saves are the only save that can be re-rolled NO EXCEPTIONS!

2+ armor saves confer SAP to the model

Ramming becomes more dangerous for both models involved

I would like to see a greater variety of low-tech weaponry added. There's no reason CSM can't get their hands on heavy stubbers, grenade launchers, mortars, chimeras, sentinels and so on. Imperial marines aren't going to use those because it's against the codex but if you don't follow that thing why not steal or copy items that even the Imperium can produce and maintain in enormous quantities?

So, regular SM get high-tech goodies while CSM have to improvise and replace broken weaponry with non-standard designs. The overall feeling I would like to get across is that SM have strictly defined units and vehicle variants while CSM just have marines that band together broadly according to how they like to fight and fit whatever vehicles they have with the guns they can get their hands on.

After a couple of thousands of years of using their twin bolters, it would be fairly natural for a terminator to consider using a heavy stubber instead when their ordinary weaponry breaks down. Longer range and less maintenance required. Ammo is likely much easier to make, too. Havocs would love to replace most of the squad's bolters with them, too, to say nothing of suiting up with grenade launchers. They don't match up well with actual heavy weaponry but sheer numbers should outweigh that concern. Refitting your tank with twin-linked plasma guns because your lascannon sponsons finally melted down and that was the hardest-hitting available energy weapon you could rig into the existing power supply also makes sense.


I wouldn't even mind if the base weapons of CSM were downgraded to shotguns, autoguns and autopistols with bolt weaponry as upgrade options if it succeeded in showing that they used often inferior equipment but had acquired superior skill. And if it was balanced points-wise to use the weaker guns as well as also worth the points to buy bolters.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Wish listing aside, the only things CSM actually *need* to be decent are points drops and more delivery options.

...And some unique toys of our own, rather than just the crappiest sections of the Loyalist's armoury.

You mean like the Torrent Flamer flyer (Heldrake), the S8 many shot Dreadnought (Forgefiend), the Beast tarpits (Spawn), Blight Grenades, Dirge Casters and so on? CSM has plenty of unique toys, but delivery and points drops are needed. And synergy with these toys.

Of course I don't think GW is going to do any powerarmour focused codex any more. Let's assume we get 4 daemonkin codexes. Yes they have marines and all, but they're all basicalyl mindless zealots. All they care about is summoning their greater daemons. They probably won't all be quite as nutty as the khorne guys but still. They don't have an awful lot of personality to me. The're little more than pawns here.

The other rumour was lost and the damned, which are cool and all, but they're hardly putting the focus on the marines either. So I'm thinking they're letting forge world handle the legions as it looks like the traitors may be getting more corrupted lists. And then if you want renegade marines you may as well take an astartes codex with alternative models, it's probably closer to the fluff anyway. Though they may have a renegade astares codex somewhere way way down the road imho.

Of course that's just my personal impression and pure speculation.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Possessed are tough 5 NO POINTS INCREASE!

Or better yet, just ditch them and throw them into the gutter where they should have been all along.

Instead, add Gal Vorbak.

FW understands what Possessed should be, both in terms of models and in terms of rules.

Seriously, the GW Possessed are bad, models and tabletop ability both.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Possessed are tough 5 NO POINTS INCREASE!

Or better yet, just ditch them and throw them into the gutter where they should have been all along.

Instead, add Gal Vorbak.

FW understands what Possessed should be, both in terms of models and in terms of rules.

Seriously, the GW Possessed are bad, models and tabletop ability both.

I actually believe the models are gorgeous! That's why I want to save em.

I mean.... Tastes vary, but you are saying that this



is better than this

I will be REALLY annoyed if they got rid of deamon weapons. They are one of the few crutches the dex has.

They already did for khorne daemonkin lol

I think that daemon weapons have to stay in a Chaos book. Otherwise it just isn't proper. Possessed weapons that can rebel against you is just so flavourful.

They do it all the time with chaos, as far as the character armoury goes we basically get a completely new one each codex...least as far as the interesting items go. Unique weapons come and go, special armour comes and goes. Icons change quite a bit too. Regardless of whether or not the change was needed

Roknar wrote:
They already did for khorne daemonkin lol

Well...technically the Kinder surprise axe and the goredrinker are kinda Deamon weapons, but yeah they could use the extra D6 attacks.

i also feel that Deamon weapons should be more then just "extra D6 Attacks", they all should have Fleshbane and Armor bane, or that they ignore FnP/RP rolls, i mean nearly all of them can rend reality and gak...

Also yeah just give straigth Rending to Possesed as some wargear back, i mean you see plenty of arts and stuff where possesed shoots Bolt pistols or other things from their arms/eyes/mouths and yet they don"t have any ranged weapon/attack.

Maybe something like "Warp infused ammunition; be it laser from their eyes, green fog from their mouth, or an oversized bolt weapon organicaly fused, the ranged attacks of possesed are has unusual has their bodies", they get a range 18, assault 2 Str6 AP4 laceration.

Hopefully tzeentch daemon kin will put a twist on possessed, then maybe we can get bile spewing nurgle possessed eventually.

And yea, if daemon weapons are alluring enough to start a black crusade over, then they should probably be pretty nasty. So if it's not extra d6 they would have to get something equally amazing. Like maybe extra d6 warp charges for tzeentch now that that's a thing. The black mace I for example I think is nice enough as it is. Despite being ap4. Not having d6 would probably only work if you get god specific mechanics like the bloodtithes though.

I don't think they all need fleshbane n d6 but, khorne and/or slaanesh should definitely get at least one +d6 version. And preferably not unwieldy like goredrinker.

 Melissia wrote:
Nothing. There's nothing that can be done. No matter what you do, CSM players will complain about it. Every single time. Always have. Always will.

The irony here is this poster plays SoB.

Access to 2+ and EW
Points drops on cult troops
Crazy special weapon numbers in chaos marine squads. Piss on the codex Astartes.
Redone boom table (awesome idea, bad implementation)
Some kind of quasi ATSKNF that still lets them be swept but offers other bonuses
Good possessed models and rules
Not touching oblits except to bring them in line pts wise with cents
Chaos ass drop pods

MarsNZ wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Nothing. There's nothing that can be done. No matter what you do, CSM players will complain about it. Every single time. Always have. Always will.

The irony here is this poster plays SoB.

And I only need one word to refute the idea that this is somehow ironic: "Plastics".

Roknar wrote:
Of course I don't think GW is going to do any powerarmour focused codex any more. Let's assume we get 4 daemonkin codexes. Yes they have marines and all, but they're all basicalyl mindless zealots. All they care about is summoning their greater daemons. They probably won't all be quite as nutty as the khorne guys but still. They don't have an awful lot of personality to me. The're little more than pawns here.

The other rumour was lost and the damned, which are cool and all, but they're hardly putting the focus on the marines either. So I'm thinking they're letting forge world handle the legions as it looks like the traitors may be getting more corrupted lists. And then if you want renegade marines you may as well take an astartes codex with alternative models, it's probably closer to the fluff anyway. Though they may have a renegade astares codex somewhere way way down the road imho.

Of course that's just my personal impression and pure speculation.

I think there is something to be said for this. In every way Daemons were the greatest single element that distinguished Chaos marines form Loyalist marines, and that distinctiveness was severely hurt by their removal. I agree I think GW maybe holding back until FW is done with HH, but I also think its partially GW's general laziness when it comes to Chaos and that its simply so easy to give large portions of chaos players what they want by doing all the daemonkin codices.

 Melissia wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Nothing. There's nothing that can be done. No matter what you do, CSM players will complain about it. Every single time. Always have. Always will.

The irony here is this poster plays SoB.

And I only need one word to refute the idea that this is somehow ironic: "Plastics".

"My complaints are more valid than yours, I'll scream it over and over in every thread I can till you understand how victimised I am"

I'm willing to bet you agree with other professional victims such as Anita Sarkeesian.

I really like the idea of unit leaders being mini lords.

Eldar already have that with the aspect warriors, why not chaos too?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I mean.... Tastes vary, but you are saying that this

Spoiler:

is better than this

Spoiler:

Both look awesome I was just saying I love the possessed model not that I hate the FW one.

Rosebuddy wrote:
I would like to see a greater variety of low-tech weaponry added. There's no reason CSM can't get their hands on heavy stubbers, grenade launchers, mortars, chimeras, sentinels and so on. Imperial marines aren't going to use those because it's against the codex but if you don't follow that thing why not steal or copy items that even the Imperium can produce and maintain in enormous quantities?

So, regular SM get high-tech goodies while CSM have to improvise and replace broken weaponry with non-standard designs. The overall feeling I would like to get across is that SM have strictly defined units and vehicle variants while CSM just have marines that band together broadly according to how they like to fight and fit whatever vehicles they have with the guns they can get their hands on.

After a couple of thousands of years of using their twin bolters, it would be fairly natural for a terminator to consider using a heavy stubber instead when their ordinary weaponry breaks down. Longer range and less maintenance required. Ammo is likely much easier to make, too. Havocs would love to replace most of the squad's bolters with them, too, to say nothing of suiting up with grenade launchers. They don't match up well with actual heavy weaponry but sheer numbers should outweigh that concern. Refitting your tank with twin-linked plasma guns because your lascannon sponsons finally melted down and that was the hardest-hitting available energy weapon you could rig into the existing power supply also makes sense.


I wouldn't even mind if the base weapons of CSM were downgraded to shotguns, autoguns and autopistols with bolt weaponry as upgrade options if it succeeded in showing that they used often inferior equipment but had acquired superior skill. And if it was balanced points-wise to use the weaker guns as well as also worth the points to buy bolters.

I think this is fascinating. Everyone should be talking about this. It would look really good, it would take some of the samey-ness out of the MEq game, it would allow basement level points on some units, and it would allow ludicrous buffs in some areas. If all the old options are still available, as upgrades, models wouldn't be obsolete. It's tremendous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Konrax wrote:
I really like the idea of unit leaders being mini lords.

Eldar already have that with the aspect warriors, why not chaos too?

Yes, like this. If your troops all start with autoguns, it's not weird to have a ws5, two wounds,ld10 model with hatred leading every single unit.

The low tech suggestion, specially regarding some heavy stubbers and grenade launchers, is really spot on. Some options for warp or even daemonically enhanced ammo could be added as well (i.e frag grenades infused with some nasty, nasty secondary effects).

For a - supposedly - assault-oriented marine army, an option to make rhinos assault vehicles also seems mandatory (i.e. scrap the combi-bolter and the two shooting slots plus pay 10 points and you get assault vehicle). However seeing how Khorne Daemonkin didn't get that, it's unlikely vanilla CSM will get it either.

CSM also need a decent vanilla anti-air option without needing to rely on allies. Some way to give prescience (or similar) to autocannon havocs could be enough, I guess.

3.5-like legion rules back could also be cool, but I know it won't happen. If anything, they'll make the main codex even duller and then prepare a flood of mini-codeci or supplements.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
I would like to see a greater variety of low-tech weaponry added. There's no reason CSM can't get their hands on heavy stubbers, grenade launchers, mortars, chimeras, sentinels and so on. Imperial marines aren't going to use those because it's against the codex but if you don't follow that thing why not steal or copy items that even the Imperium can produce and maintain in enormous quantities?

So, regular SM get high-tech goodies while CSM have to improvise and replace broken weaponry with non-standard designs. The overall feeling I would like to get across is that SM have strictly defined units and vehicle variants while CSM just have marines that band together broadly according to how they like to fight and fit whatever vehicles they have with the guns they can get their hands on.

After a couple of thousands of years of using their twin bolters, it would be fairly natural for a terminator to consider using a heavy stubber instead when their ordinary weaponry breaks down. Longer range and less maintenance required. Ammo is likely much easier to make, too. Havocs would love to replace most of the squad's bolters with them, too, to say nothing of suiting up with grenade launchers. They don't match up well with actual heavy weaponry but sheer numbers should outweigh that concern. Refitting your tank with twin-linked plasma guns because your lascannon sponsons finally melted down and that was the hardest-hitting available energy weapon you could rig into the existing power supply also makes sense.


I wouldn't even mind if the base weapons of CSM were downgraded to shotguns, autoguns and autopistols with bolt weaponry as upgrade options if it succeeded in showing that they used often inferior equipment but had acquired superior skill. And if it was balanced points-wise to use the weaker guns as well as also worth the points to buy bolters.

I think this is fascinating. Everyone should be talking about this. It would look really good, it would take some of the samey-ness out of the MEq game, it would allow basement level points on some units, and it would allow ludicrous buffs in some areas. If all the old options are still available, as upgrades, models wouldn't be obsolete. It's tremendous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Konrax wrote:
I really like the idea of unit leaders being mini lords.

Eldar already have that with the aspect warriors, why not chaos too?

Yes, like this. If your troops all start with autoguns, it's not weird to have a ws5, two wounds,ld10 model with hatred leading every single unit.

I dont think cultists should get access to mini lords, but I don't see why a marine unit, or cult marine unit shouldn't be able to upgrade the leader to an aspiring champion for a point cost that would give them access to bs/ws 5, i5, and 2 wounds for around 20-30 points. Give them access to relics and wargear, even terminator armour. Space wolves get something like this already as well.

It fits the fluf as well honestly, why can't a group of berserkers or thousand sons have an aspiring champion leading them?

As it stands now there is no aspiring champions anymore so where do new lords come from?

I would love a white scar equivalent as chaos I like bike army, but I dislike the Imperium lol. It could give me the options of playing Chaos with my Ravenwing army lol

There's no reason you can't now.

Setting aside the "my codex should be able to offer me the options I want without going elsewhere" discussion for a minute, which isn't entirely irrelevant, as long as everything is WYSIWYG, why not just make a bike army with C:SM rules and Chaos models?

 Azreal13 wrote:
There's no reason you can't now.

Setting aside the "my codex should be able to offer me the options I want without going elsewhere" discussion for a minute, which isn't entirely irrelevant, as long as everything is WYSIWYG, why not just make a bike army with C:SM rules and Chaos models?

That sounds an awful lot like Heresy

GENERAL WARNING: Please be sure to keep personal attacks out of posts at all times.

Rule #1, yeah?

Thanks!