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I'd like to see some Model updates, such as Abaddon (who looks aweful now compared to the magnificent Calagar)
also Better Possessed rules, maybe an option for a Possessed Lord
I'd like to see a Massive Muti-part Chaos Lord Kit, parts for all the gods and awesome looking weapons

id agree that we need more options, id like to see stuff like a Whip, A Chain-Glaive, Manreaper for lords ( anything to help us get on a level with every other fudger out there)

Im a Chaos player and im Proud of it, but im fed up of all the love going seemingly every other Codex except me






what we really need is Matt Ward to write our Codex (rules only)

I don't see anything wrong with Abbadon's model. Easily one of the best models ever released for 40k. Which reminds me, my FLGS still has it stored in holy metal... I'll likely grab it in my next visit

Possesed needs to be like Gal Vorbaks...

I mean Marines stats with Str and Thoughness! 5, Deamons, you roll a mutation at the start of the game, they have Bolt pistols!!!, and CCW options, and they cost 30pts a model...., just like our sub par possesed now...

Also please, give the Bloodthirster his Str 8 back, it doesn't makes any sens that he's only Str6...

the problem is that CSM players whine and complain about poor codices is lore behind chaos. CSM forces have extremely developed and massive back story which is represented by rule books very poorly.

Well while at it I will include my personal wish list of proposed changes. Put a spolier on it due size.




I didn't went into depth with HQ as it would take way too much space.

My suggestion :

Remove Possessed,  Chosen, Plague Marines, Khorne Beserkers,  Noise Marines,  Thousand Sons as they will be exclusive in Khorne Daemonkin, Tzeentch Daemonkin, Nurgle Daemonkin, Slaanesh Daemonkin
codexes.

Give terminators sternguard like ammo or permi combi melta/plasma/flamer. Give them the option to carry laser weapons such as Triple lasgun, multi laser because  they are walking energy generators. Give each termi a combat familiar for 2pps or free so they get 2 additional s4 ap- attacks. Now Termi are decent in melee.

Hell give each champs if Chaos a free combat familiar.  The termi champ gets 2! Also rewrite Champion of Chaos to include blanket 6++ invul save in close combat and the invul stacks so a termi champ gets 4++ in combat, and a tzeentch termi champ gets 3++ in combat. And make all power weapons 5-7pts or free or make it a power daemon weapon at 15pts. Also a blanket buff to WS of +1 to all champ of chaos.
Reduce the boon table to just a single d6 or replace with a tally count buff like goredrinker. Also make it so challeng      
goads enemy squad out of cover.     
Replace bolters on marines for Lasguns and make them even cheaper. Retain option for boltgun as a 1-2ppm upgrade. Allow csm squad of 5 to carry 2 special or heavy guns. This will make csm basic troops very good! Plasma guns should cost 10pts. Also expand choices to better 30k version of guns that cost a bit more but much better like 30k plasmaguns that n3ver gets hot for 15pts or an ectoplasma gun for 15pts. Allow heavy gun called the warped conversion beam gun without the focusing rule and you perma choose the firing variance so troops can move but only shoot 1 specific range all game. Allow a faux heavy weapon called a multi plasma cannon for 15pts, it just has 36" heavy 3 s7 ap2 instead of small
blast.

Plasma guns in general should have option to remove gets hot by reducing s7 to s6 or ap2 to ap3 however  to make book keeping simple, the entire army must choose whether everyone gets ecto plasma, 30k safe plasma, or S6 safe plasma, or ap3 safe plasma. 

I like that suggestion someone made about if ld is failed, execute 1 model to auto pass ld check do they dont get swept.  

Make mutilator and obliterator 1wound and reduce their cost in by 40% so they would be 40pt mutilator and 50pts oblitz. And expand max squad size by 2x.   Give mutilators free single use jump packs due to daemonic leaping.
To fix helbrutes and fiends, Create a formation where the helbrute rides the fiends into battle!!! saw/carve a divet slot into the back of the fiend to slide in a helbrute.  Helbrute gets a lance or a sword or whatever.  Make 3 kinds of formation. The Lance Charge which is a ccw lance wielding brute on one arm and a mm or ml or lc or ac arm on the other or 2 lances. The brute rides a mauler fiend with whatever options. They get hammer of wrath. This formation is ment to charge into Imperial Knight titans at i5 and b4 stomp. Next formation is the mobile gun drive by. Any ranged guns on brute riding a dakka fiend. Dakka fiend benefits from brutes crazed results.

Next is the Defiler, Make him into a transport! He can carry 10 csm on his back. There is a odd empty space  on the back of a defiler as if it is the egg sac on
a spider. This walking transport can move and charge! When the defiler charges and gets into melee, the 10 csm can pop out and join the melee! or hide back inside. Now a crazy idea is, what if the battle cannon can shoot at the enemy and then a squad it was carrying is magically teleported directly where the center of the blast went off? and they can charge into melee same turn!

 Whiskered wrote:
Hell brutes
- Price drop
- Option to take chaos marks
- Option to take god specific weapons
- Option to take It will not die
- Option to take Malefic ammunition. ( Heavy bolters and auto cannons get rending special rule)
- Needs to become monstrous creature not a vehicle.

Actually it'd be cool if Helbrutes got a (very slight) price drop, the chaos marks and IWND.

On the other hand, a proper Chaos Dreadnought could be introduced, basically replicating the Ferrus Infernus from IA13. Veteran of the Long War + "venerable" by default (WS and BS 5, hatred against all IoM factions, etc). Also customizable depending not on gods but even on legions.

It would be incredibly cool, sadly it won't happen.

 Korinov wrote:

 Whiskered wrote:
Hell brutes
- Price drop
- Option to take chaos marks
- Option to take god specific weapons
- Option to take It will not die
- Option to take Malefic ammunition. ( Heavy bolters and auto cannons get rending special rule)
- Needs to become monstrous creature not a vehicle.

Actually it'd be cool if Helbrutes got a (very slight) price drop, the chaos marks and IWND.

On the other hand, a proper Chaos Dreadnought could be introduced, basically replicating the Ferrus Infernus from IA13. Veteran of the Long War + "venerable" by default (WS and BS 5, hatred against all IoM factions, etc). Also customizable depending not on gods but even on legions.

It would be incredibly cool, sadly it won't happen.

I think the best way to play CSM thees days is create your own warband oh and IA 13 is must have. I wish some of upgrades like malefic ammunition would come to the core rules set.

I like IA13 but it should be supplemental and not mandatory to play.

I think GW has a certain reluctance in making anything Chaos has as being standout better than Loyalist marines. It is the draw of power that leads Loyalists to become Renegades and fall to Chaos, maybe GWs trying to teach some moral to the story but they seem largely fall and sacrifice and not much in the way of power that would have tempted them. Becoming a possessed marine doesn't even provide as much as an advantage as what can be accomplished with fancy technology... Why would they ever do that?-even an insane man recognizes degrees of inequity. The same sort of thought applies to daemon engines... Why would you ever want the weapon that might shoot you in the face when for less effort you could have one that won't?-It's only justified when it brings capabilities that truly exceed mundane options.

If they pushed CSM to have a lot of extra kinds of consul-like champions as elite choices you could really get the flavour of searching for individual power at all costs that the faction is supposed to have. Especially if you also boosted aspiring champions to something that is actually impressive and interesting.

Possession is something that imho needs a complete overhaul. I'd like to see what you could do with the idea as an upgrade for existing characters and units.

Rosebuddy wrote:
If they pushed CSM to have a lot of extra kinds of consul-like champions as elite choices you could really get the flavour of searching for individual power at all costs that the faction is supposed to have. Especially if you also boosted aspiring champions to something that is actually impressive and interesting.

Possession is something that imho needs a complete overhaul. I'd like to see what you could do with the idea as an upgrade for existing characters and units.

GW seems to have wanted Champions to be an important part of our book but they made them liabilities... Space Wolves are a good example of having these independent champions each with their own character. I'm not saying our army should look like that but that Chaos champions should be somewhere closer to that than to where we are. I think it's a clearer way for GW to convey its message that former legions and renegade chapters don't matter as much as piratical cults formed around individual tyrants trying to get in the graces of the chaos gods.

That isn't the interpretation or version players want to hear but is the one GW says they're trying to make; ultimately it's one more thing that shows GW has a jumbled idea of how to do chaos.

Chaos need to be made the horrific killing machines they are supposed to be.

The average chaos marine who is a VOTLW should make even the hardiest loyalist marine quake in his boots.

Hundreds of years of experience plus the favor of dark gods should make you a beast.

We need price adjustments, rewrites of certain units to make them useful and in line with the current power curve, and scary formations/detachments.

As an example:

Defilers should be able to be bought 1-3 as a single heavy choice.
Increase Front armour to 13
Allow a formation of three to combine battlecannon fire to use apocalyptic blast
Keep points as is.

IF they don't get any changes they need a price drop at the very least.


I also expect we are going to see a " chaos renegades/LATD/cultists" codex which will give use more fluffy and varied alliances.

Look, I know you guys have reasons to complain but you miss one major point: You have the 3+ saves as base. You are MEQ's
Try being an IG player in this era. You have non of the fancy weapons and formations that other forces have access too, 6thed effectively nerfed vehicles into the ground and now your tanks can be glanced to death with ease, provided your opponent knows what they are doing.
And the Evisecrator. I am truly sorry about that one. Believe me, us IG players would have fought if we had known but we did not. And now the loyalist scum have taken the only real reason to take a priest.

And the most amusing point is that loyalist marine players are saying they are not overpowered and are perfectly balanced, or even slightly underpowered.....
Actually, you are right. Chaos does need a buff. And so does the Imperial Guard. Both of us need a buff that takes us to a new power level waaaayyyyy above the big four (Space Marines, Eldar, Adeptus Mechanicus and Necrons) and leaves them trailing in the dust for once.

I hate to say this but I am with you on this one whole heartedly.

Our Champs should be mini lords.

look at the Eldars and their units characters, they not only have better equipement, but also special rules/powers.

Why a Chaos CHamp doesn't have some "dark aura" thingy that give the unit and the model Y or Z usr or something else is beyond me.

Init5 2 Wounds and a special rule of some sort.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
If they pushed CSM to have a lot of extra kinds of consul-like champions as elite choices you could really get the flavour of searching for individual power at all costs that the faction is supposed to have. Especially if you also boosted aspiring champions to something that is actually impressive and interesting.

Possession is something that imho needs a complete overhaul. I'd like to see what you could do with the idea as an upgrade for existing characters and units.

GW seems to have wanted Champions to be an important part of our book but they made them liabilities... Space Wolves are a good example of having these independent champions each with their own character. I'm not saying our army should look like that but that Chaos champions should be somewhere closer to that than to where we are. I think it's a clearer way for GW to convey its message that former legions and renegade chapters don't matter as much as piratical cults formed around individual tyrants trying to get in the graces of the chaos gods.

That isn't the interpretation or version players want to hear but is the one GW says they're trying to make; ultimately it's one more thing that shows GW has a jumbled idea of how to do chaos.

Yea, the main problem with csm isn't rules. It's that they have had an identity crisis since...well pretty much forever. Though I'm kind of getting the feeling that GW is at least trying to figure that out in order to give us a more focused codex after the whole daemonkin thing. It's almost guaranteed to put off quite a few people, but I'd say csm would be better for it. Once/if they manage that, cool rules/wargear/etc will follow naturally (in theory anyway).
Khorne daemonkin aren't exactly what we were hoping for, but if you ignore the existence of the csm codex. It actually becomes a pretty decent codex. They really nailed the fanatical daemon worshiping. And the units work well for most part in the formations. It's far from perfect, but it's good enough to say they succeeded in their goal of daemon worshiping followers of chaos which happen to have a large presence of chaos marines.
I would (want to) consider khorne daemonkin not only a relic from a previous design cycle, but also a testing bed for future chaos codices. I imagine this might hold true for the other daemonkin too, depending on how far in development they were, if at all.
It's not the book I was looking for, but it gives me some hope that csm will be more focused in the future. Which will lead to better codices. Though it might also mean I have to switch to FW to scratch that traitor legion itch, but I'd be fine with that.

Imho Chaos Spcae Marines are the only army in the game with this problem. Even Codex Space Marines is pretty specific in what it attempts to represent, despite it's generalist nature. Imperial guard suffered from the same issue to a lesser degree, but not anymore, now that they cut more "exotic" stuff like catachans. If they want to support different styles like Elysian drop troops, then they can make a codex specific to them. Which they'll never do ofc, but that's a different issue.
I for one, would much rather have codex: <specific csm> over codex:<faceless jack-of-all-trades csm>. Even if it means not getting the codex I want. At least then I can fully commit to whatever other fraction suits me better. Ironically, atm that would be sisters....le sigh.

I disagree with reducing point costs and making the army use more generic wargear. I certainly agree with the general idea that the cost:benefit ratio for a lot of units in the book is off, but I’d rather they make the units more powerful and worth the investment as opposed to trying to bring the points down to reflect their current relative power.

40k really doesn’t have a whole army designed around the ‘small numbers, big payoff’ type of role. Sure we have things like Deathwing and Nidzilla, but these are just flavor lists, not really meant to be balanced or competitive. If the mark system were redesigned so each mark was relevant, viable, and equally priced, these could be used to add a lot of power to individual units at a great price. Especially if they introduced tiers to these marks.

For Example…
Renegade Chaos Space Marine, 15pts each, but come with a mark base. They’re also given the renegade special rule which is just fearless. For +5 pts, you could upgrade your Renegade Chaos Space Marine to a Veteran Chaos Space Marine. The veteran special rule gives you everything renegade does but also gives you something else. Elite cult units or chosen would have further upgrades. Possessed would have 2 marks from friendly gods (Khorne + Tzee or Nurgle + Slaanesh). etc.

Mark of Tzeentch
Renegade: +1 invuln save.
Veteran: +1 invuln save, and you can reroll all 1s.
Chosen: ???
Cult: Effectively makes you a rubric marine with all their special rules (which also need an update)

Renegade kind of shows you have only just started to get the attention of the chaos gods and their gifts reflect this. Veterans would be much older and have proven themselves to the chaos gods so their gifts would be more noticeable. Further still would be the cult marines or chosen.

Now I don’t know if giving your unit +1 invuln and the ability to reroll all failed saves of a 1 is fair or worth 5 pts, but it’s just to give an idea of where they could go with a system like this. Each unit is fairly expensive, but their special rules and mark make it worth it.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Our Champs should be mini lords.

look at the Eldars and their units characters, they not only have better equipement, but also special rules/powers.

Why a Chaos CHamp doesn't have some "dark aura" thingy that give the unit and the model Y or Z usr or something else is beyond me.

Init5 2 Wounds and a special rule of some sort.

I second that, but I think this should be specific only to legions/spliter warbands. While renegade chapters should have just evil sergant

Formations. Its the age we live in.

I edited my post earlier.

what do you guys think of a formation where Helbrutes ride Mauler Fiends? Or Defiler gettjng an egg sac to carry 10 marines and even teleport them not from reserves from the crater of the battle cannon blast?

 Filch wrote:
I edited my post earlier.

what do you guys think of a formation where Helbrutes ride Mauler Fiends? Or Defiler gettjng an egg sac to carry 10 marines and even teleport them not from reserves from the crater of the battle cannon blast?

I am sorry but I am not sure if you are serious or sarcastic.

Whiskey144, is that you with a new account from being banned?

Btw, I am serious! If I think I can model a helbrute riding a fiend! Also tbe egg sac carrying 10 marines on the defiler.

 Filch wrote:
Whiskey144, is that you with a new account from being banned?

Btw, I am serious! If I think I can model a helbrute riding a fiend! Also tbe egg sac carrying 10 marines on the defiler.

Who's that?


Also on topic. I find it hilarious that only monstrous creature that CSM got is demon prince.
Now you made me think how walker transport option would work in this game.

Hell Knight Riders formation:
3 Helbrutes each with mandatory special Lance Dreadnaught close combat weapon carried in one arm. the other arm is free for upgrade options.

3 mauler fiends.

Shared Daemon heart: Can allocate haulpoints amongst rider and mount. And Helbrute gets 5++
Shared Daemon forged Engine: Both the helbrute and fiend benefit from demonforged so once per battle helbrute can re roll all to hit and to wound rolls.

Move thru cover

Hammer of Wrath: On a charge both helbrute and fiend generates seperate HoW attack therby creating more attacks .

Dreadnaught ccw Lance: +2 initiative on the charge. +3 str therby making hits s9 on the charge and subsequently +1 str so helbrutes hit at s7 after charge. Ap1 on the charge and ap2 there after.

Crazed Mount: if the fiend suffers a glance or penetrate hit then it rolls on tbe crazed table and the helbrute does the same thing. If brute suffer crazed then so would the fiend.

They will not die! Helbrute also gets iwnd. So if helbrute has 1 less hp and so does fiend, roll for both separately so you can recover 1 hp from brute and 1 from fiend.

Preferred Enemy: Super Heavies

Defiler brood formation:
2 defilers carrying what appears to be a drop pod on their backs.

2 squads of csm.

Egg pod: Treat this defiler as if it had a carrying capacity of 10 troops and the troops can disembark on the sides and rear of the defiler.

Battle Born: When the Defiler charges into combat. After over watch is denied by dirge casters or not and challenges issued, the squad of marines may disembark directly into combat joining the defiler in melee.

Warped Battle cannon: After the defiler fires the battle cannon, the grown becomes tainted with chaos so strong that the csm can teleport in the center of the blast with pinpoint accuracy as if it was a beacon. Place a crater in the center of the blast and teleport the 10 csm the defiler was carrying in there.

 Whiskered wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Whiskey144, is that you with a new account from being banned?

Btw, I am serious! If I think I can model a helbrute riding a fiend! Also tbe egg sac carrying 10 marines on the defiler.

Who's that?


Also on topic. I find it hilarious that only monstrous creature that CSM got is demon prince.
Now you made me think how walker transport option would work in this game.

There are the ork walker transports, and the defiler thing is/Was an apocalsype formation or something I think. Berzerkers just kind of hanging on to it.

How about we not turn into 40k's version of over-clichéd, slap-stick Loony Toons villains?

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If CSM got an "indiscriminate fire" rule, then I want it for Guard and the Mechanicus factions!

Actually, I'm pretty sure there are some IG armies where they can call down a bombardment on their heads. (I can't remember which ones, though... DKoK, maybe?)

feldherr
That's in Siege of Vraks (the large collection edition) Renegades and Heretics. Ordnance Tyrant lets any (friendly) model with 12" that fires a weapon using Barrage or Blast ignore the "cannot clip / hit friendlies" restriction. Including firing into CC. Scatter and resolve hits as normal.

CSM Used to be defined by their play style. Now they're just SMs with broken armor, bad mechs and dinobots.

If GW ever wanted to make CSM viable and actually competitive;

1) Remove the nonsense about our murderous machines not being able to hit anything in CC because they are WS3. What kind of stupid nonsense is that? And if Im paying 20 bloody points to turn a Vehicles into a Daemonically Possessed Vehicles, it should Gain abilities equal to PotMS.

2) Make Forgefiends less damn awful. 175 Points for terribly optimized walkers that have garbage weapons due to their BS. Why even bother giving us 2 guns if statistically we're gonna hit on 4s anyways? Just give us 1 damn gun and Make it TL or something. Not to mention the Exctoplasma Cannons have one of the worst Cannon ranges in the game for what you're getting for it

3) Make Cult Marines Upgraded Basic CSM of their God when Taken with a specific Character. For instance, CSM with Mark of Slaanesh become Noise Marines if taken with a Lord. We already pay the damn tax of the Lord / Special Character. Stop making CSM players pay doubly for models just because they have special damn names.

4) Lower the Helldrake point cost to 160. It's no longer competitive in its slot now that people like myself can easily purchase FW flyers which out perform it, at lower costs and are generally more flexible. 170 Points for a Torrent Flamer that kills Marines isn't as great as it seems when I could take a Hell Blade for 115 Points with 6 TL str 7 ap 4 Rending shots. Especially when It can reposition itself D6+2" before it moves in any direction.

5) Give our Maulerfiends Squadrons of 1-3 like WWs and Vindicators got (Apparently)

6) Let Obliterators come in squadrons of 1-3 units each, capable of independently operating.

7) Make Mutilators extinct. They're crap and look terrible. They are over costed, worse versions of Chaos Terminators, and we'll be getting into those next

8) Why do my CSM Terminators suck? Termicide? Sweet, lets sacrifice 3 well painted models with Combi Plasma weapons by throwing them into reserves and hope we dont die immediately from Deep Strike, then hope we can kill 1 tank before being erased from the board by swaths of str 5+ FW spam or Guardsmen. Hell, I've killed CSM Terminators em mass with Cultists and Autoguns RELIABLY, which is sad. Give CSM the ability to take God specific gear on their Terminators. Tzeentch Termies are Brotherhood of Psykers, Khorne Termies have D6+6" Charges, Nurgle have Shrouded, Slaanesh Have Rending and +1 Initiative.

9) Remove Warp Talons. Another garbagely over costed Marine Killer we dont need, filling a spot in our rosters we can better make use of with Raptors.

10) Land Raider variants that dont involve me sinking 240$ into a Forge World hard cover book that nails me on 40$ for import charges. Here's a thought, want to sell stuff reliably and make a profit off your models? Maybe include their DAMN RULES IN YOUR GW BRAND BOOKS.

11) Stop, finally freaking STOP with the mentality that because CSM are the "Bad guys" in the universe that they should naturally be shafted over and over and over again while you coddle and baby the plethora of SM players and Eldar collectors.

This is something I ask a while ago as well and got good answers as you have I think the big ones where:
1: T6 DP to help against Insta Kill
2: Land Raider Options so you can take a full 5 terms with an HQ in it.
3: razorbacks and drop pods as Dedicated Transports


As for New models I would like to see new HelBrutes. I know thats probably not happening since they just released the Crimson slaughter model, but i hate that its non-upgradable with different weapons. I also wouldn't mind seeing a new possessed model. I don't know why but the current ones look like a drunken Hentai cartoonist made them.

GW released a multi-part helbrute kit last year .


Honestly 1st thing I'd want is for us to have something similar to Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF. Something like the rule I made in my fandex a while ago would be awesome (Fallen Astartes: Immune to Fear, may always attempt to regroup at max Ld and may re-roll sweeping advance rolls)

A seperation between Helbrutes and Dreadnoughts would be awesome. Have helbrutes be crazy and daemon possessed with lots of attacks but lower I and BS and have dreadnought be more plain, with maybe +1 WS and VotLW.

Also squadrons like vanilla marines would be awesome, as would A4 brutes/dreads.

Making Possessed and Warp Talons more like 30Ks Gal Vorbak would be welcome, as would a price decrease for our termis since SM just got one.

Also unique special and heavy weapons would be great, so that our normal weapons aren't just everything loyalists get, except missing the more powerful options that have been around since the HH because... reasons.

Too much of the wish listing here is just asking for things SM already have which to be honest is kinda lame, might as well play marines and use some of the chaos models if you want similar marine rules, units, and items.

CSM need to be given their own distinct feel and style. Some of the ideas of warp based weapons, low grade tech, etc are fantastic. GW needs to advance the CSM story line more and invent some new unique weapons:tech for CSM. In 10k years you would think some of the heretical things CSM would have done is invent new and terrible weapons, both on a small and large scale. The only inventiveness GW gives CSM credit for is slapping spikes on old tanks. I understand there are going to be parallels between the two armies, but where SM are stuck in the past technologically, that restriction shouldn't apply to CSM.

Hellbrute 4 attacks to bring it in line, no cost increase
All deamon engines bar defiler made monstrous creature, including hellbrute, this removes the pointless vector strike special rule too as fmc already have it.
Defiler 120pts
130 with av13
Complete and utter overhaul of all the marine types