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So, now with those Loyalist dogs getting a shiny new 7th ed codex, alongside overall across the board price drops, even more Grav-spamming, buffs to their Chapter Tactics, decent to amazing Formation bonuses, etc...
What is it going to take for Chaos Marines to compete at this point? We don't have the massive Battle Bro's BFF club that Loyalists do - we're stuck with Daemonic allies and the new Daemonkin, the former of which is also beginning to show it's age.

Personally I'm hoping that this time around, we don't receive any new units at all. We've got pretty decent unit selection across the board overall. No, what we desperately need are more options in terms of weapon upgrades for our squads, and better pricing across our units!
Look at what just the Vanilla Marines have gotten in terms of 'new toys' for their squaddies/characters over the recent past;
- Grav pistol
- Grav gun
- Grav Cannon w/amp
- Heavy Flamer
- Sternguard ammo
- Relic Blade
- Eviscerator

It gets even worse when you take into account the other three books of the 'Big 4' Chapters, as BA's get Hand Flamers, Inferno pistols, Angelus Boltguns, Glaive Encarmine... DA's get Plasma cannon Termies, Plasma Talons, Corvus hammers, Blade of Caliban, Mace of Redemption... SW's get Frost Cannons...
We've been stuck with the exact same 3 special weapons, 4 heavy weapons, and basic close combat upgrades for going on 17 **** years!! Where the hell are all of our own unique toys that merge the power of the warp with arcane technology? What happened to all our Plasma cannons & Heavy flamers from the Heresy, when the former was actually much better understood at the time?!!

More than anything else, beyond pts drops, I don't think we can gain any ground in our overall competitiveness until we get some more options for kitting out squads... Melta spam in Rhinos just isn't enough these days.
And for an army that's all about being aggressive and getting into assaults, we're actually really, really terrible at even getting there! At the very least we need some new flavours of Land Raiders and an assault Rhino to get help get us stuck in.

Beyond that, I'd love to see Chosen actually be worth a damn, and not simply a bastardised Sternguard+Vanguard but -11 turd fest.



Of course, this is GW we're talking about, so the only thing I'd expect from a new CSM book is;
1. Army-wide nerfs & pts-hikes across the board.
2. No new models
3. They decide that Formationhammer is no more and thus we get 0 Formations, no Decurion, but a return to the days of 0-'X' options everywhere, because... "reasons"

it seems very likely they are going the daemonkin treatment. and they have been mirroring their fantasy equivalents fairly closely, especially evident with daemons. i'd expect more of that to continue. (which would be awesome if chaos lords would translate across to 40k!)
i'd imagine the way the game works, that khorne will probably still end up being the weakest one when all is said and done, which would not necessarily be a bad thing, khorne daemonkin is certainly not a bad army, and fun to play.

I"ve seen plenty of ideas and wishlists on this very thing since... well, since the codex came out. And most of them all have excellent points and quickfixes that would help so much. So I won't rehash them here.

So what do I think would help CSM out? Options. Some good ol' Warp-loving flavor in the options available. The last codex brought in a good handful of new units... that all do one thing. Cultist can take pistols or guns, done. Drakes have a cannon or flamer, done. The two new HQs are such a niche build they can't compete to the customization of the Lord. The 'fiends have the same issue. And of course, the crowd favorites of Warp Talons and Mutilators. Even the old units are the same one-trick ponies as always: Rhinos, Land Raiders, Possessed, and so on. Chosen were neutered to just "CSM+extra specials."

Throw in some options for once. Different variants and loadouts for all of them, greater access to restricted wargear for the HQ. Have the Marks do something beyond the dull stat boosts we have now (bonus points if it means all the marks are equally viable). Maybe s'more daemonic weapons? Perhaps some Warp-inspired weapon profiles? (Bilespewers for some flamers/sorcery-infused ammunition/a heavy bolter that shoots skulls/anything!)?

Just... make the codex come alive. Will it be competitive? Oh, good lord, no possible way of knowing. Once you toss in a Decurian and some formations it'll be good enough, I'm sure. But add the flavor to it and it will be a damn blast, I'm sure.

I definitely agree on the options idea, especially when they're warp-flavored and properly costed. I'm tired of feeling like SM's bastard evil half brother who spends his time sniveling in corners so the fanboys can feel like special snowflakes when they wreck our inferior forces with shiny toys. The current codex feels so half hearted.

Give Havocs a better choice of weapons, maybe add some more options to our land raiders, and give my Daemon Prince EW back!

I think that if they want to change they need to overcome their limitations that gw has stuffed on them ages ago. Back when cc mattered the chaos marines were a less mobile but more magically and cc gifted alternative to regular marines.

Now that the game has shifted away from that and flyers got wrestled into balance the codex is without many legs to stand on. And it's time they remove their old barriers and erect new ones.

I'd probably start by giving them the razorback, and update the rhino kit to include the bits for limited razorback access. Maybe change the stock weapon to something else like a twin linked heavy flamer or something. This would help them out a ton., more transport options means more mobility tools.

We can then start discussing forge fiends. These are probably the most underwhelming unit they've got and some statline upgrades would go a long way to making the forge and mauler more accessible and useful.

Finally price dropping the defiler, his big guns are needed and he is actuallyy pretty good at dakka.

Chosen I feel should have been more like Wolf Guard with a massive amount of variety in their options for every model in the unit and not just 5. Also, I'd like them to have jump packs as an option again and perhaps allow them the option of taking bikes. Also, with this, Draznicht's Ravagers wouldn't just be an okay choice (a good choice currently with plasma), but an amazing choice.

I'd like like to be able to upgrade Possessed outside of just marks. Like being able to purchase wings for them or something.

I think that regular Chaos Space Marines... heck, perhaps the entire codex, could benefit from Non-god specific Icons allowing players to tailor - especially Chaos Space Marines - units for a wider variety of tasks and potentially allow mono god lists to be more viable.

Either variants or upgrades for Chaos vehicles so that their not just spiky versions of their loyalist variants. I mean they no longer adhere to the strict doctrines of the Imperium or AdMech, How about some Ectoplasma Land Raiders? Hades or Reaper Autocannon Predators? Put a turret on the Land Raider for MOAR DAKKA?

And then personal things I'd love to see: Hellbrute HQ option; Mutilators merged with Warp Talons to create fast moving melee monsters straight out of nightmares, kind of what I imagined the Dornian Heresy Raven Guard to be; An option to opt out of the Chaos Boon table...

And of course, Legion Tactics.

IMHO, the only thing that's actively holding back the Dark Apostle from being a staple contender right alongside the Chaos Lord, is how for some stupid reason, Chaos Chaplains suddenly & very convienently "forget" how to ride a bike/use a jump pack, unlike the Loyalist ones.

Dumbest thing right there in our codex...

Give the Apostle the ability to take a bike/steed/jump pack, and give the Warpsmith the option for a bike. But then, I guess "because... Chaos!lolz", we're the only army that's not allowed to build a deathstar unit.

I'd like to see Warpsmiths, Apostles and Sorcerors be optional upgrades to the basic Lord character and T6 on Daemon Princes because everyone seems to get T6 FMC these days.

Daemon Engines become MC.
Open Topped or Assault Rhinos whether through upgrade or a new variant.
Chaos variant Land Raider which costs less and functions almost solely as a transport.
God themed Formations with some of these get X free or +X stat buffs (Not a fan of them but once the cat is out of the bag...)

New plastic kits that both retire the ancient ones and add Heresy era weapons diversifying our horrible options.

Something to help the marines themselves return to the table. New/more weapons per squad would be a start. Either a points drop or a large morale buff. If they want to keep things Character centric perhaps as long as they have a character they kill a squad member and auto rally when caught/rallying.

Simplify, buff and theme the Boon table. If we have to challenge/never decline make it worth our while if we kill someone. God themed rewards for kills would be most welcome.

More daemonic influences in our vehicle upgrades and less "It's a Space Marine Vindicator with spikes"

I wouldn't mind seeing cultists getting access to scout or infiltrate, something to give them some value compared to guard.

Also a +1 to the perils table, or a separate chaod version of it. Maybe with bigger boons, but with worse potential results.

Demonic possession on vehicles needs to actually do more than it does now, perhaps even add a hull point.

Chaos terminators need to stop sucking horribly. Things like reliable deep strike, or even being able to charge from deep strike would be great.

Not sucky chaos psychic powers.

The list goes on and on.

To bounce off of Eldarain, with challenges and boons...

What about seriously buffing up the Aspiring Champions? These are supposed to be the cutthroat eon-old soldiers who are just waiting for the right moment to step in and overtake/overthrow the reigning Lord and make the warband their own. They're supposed to be on the cusp of greatness and glory all in their own name above all others.

Instead they are no different than the rank-and-file, plus a point of leadership and an extra attack. And wargear choices they can't fully utilize because they're just as weak. Woo.

Seriously, turn them into mini-Lords. Or mini-Sorcerers if you want. Make them a real and serious threat to anyone whom they challenge. Now you've got a horde of 10 or 20 led by a beefed-up Champion, using the squad as ablative wounds so he can storm forward and prove his own glory in battle, though still not as glorious as the Lord.

Well, I don't exactly play CSM anymore, but in my time playing CSM and my current venture into the land of KDK I can tell you many of our units are just plain terrible.

Buffs:

All codexes- Khorne Berzerkers get chain-axes for free (why in Khorne's name don't they come stock with these?), also, point cost goes down to 17-15ppm

KDK exclusive- Land Raider: Why don't these things have dirge casters? Give em back!

All codexes- More abilities showing the true levels these marines have fallen to, I'm talking about Khorne Berzerkers having a berzerk rule that hurts them, but makes them better in combat, or Rubric Marines able to get up if their champion casts a spell of rejuvenation on them (or something like that)

CSM- Rubric Marines cost a little bit less, also Tzeentch magic table needs to stop being terrible.

Main rule change- Fear needs to actually be worth jack squat. I have an idea where fear if failed makes you take a ld test and if failed you run.

Summoning/KDK- Blood Crushers become toughness 5.

Nerfs:

Make heldrakes a tad bit more expensive, but only a tad bit.

Blood Crushers have to take a strength test every turn and if they fail they immediately charge the closest unit, they lost control!

I think, given the breadth of fluff that a CSM force can encompass, it's going to be difficult to please everyone, but that's not to say we can't try!

Here's an idea I had that might make things a bit more defined, and generate some more units from the same products (and maybe an extra weapons sprue).

Have a tier system for the CSM, I.e ranging from newly turned astartes- to the original legions of traitors from the heresy. Each could have layers of upgrades that those on each end of the spectrum don't have access to. For example the newbies might be able to have grav guns, but not access to marks (losing say, atsknf), whereas the old school CSM could have marks, banners, mutations, arcane weapons (volkite? Etc) and stuff like fearless, or leadership buffs like adamantium will for points and so on. It makes the player choose between new kit vs old, adding some more character but with a reasonable trade off.

The same could easily apply across vehicles and other kit.

Just a thought.

Chaos and Orks are ALWAYS going to be the antagonists and will always have a handicap to let the good guys win.

Chaos Marines get the downsides of regular marines, PLUS additional penalties. This will never go away.

It is supposed to be an extremely bad day when Chaos actually wins. Same for Orks.
.

I would love for CSM to get more options! Here is what I would like to see

- Across the board point adjustments.
- LEGION TACTICS!!! (Even if they're similar to loyalist tactics)
- Cult Marines as troops without taking a Lord/Sorcerer/Character tax.
- Buffs to units that desperately need them (Mutilators, Possessed, Forgefiends, etc)
- Add Razorbacks, Drop Pods, and Land Raider variants.
- Remove the 'must challenge all the time' rule
- Better psychic powers
- More weapon options



Not rules related, but I really want to see them update the mass majority of the models. So many of them are terribly old and show it. I'm also very afraid that with these Daemonkin books that they'll remove all of the god specific units from the core codex. So if I want to run Berserkers I'll have to have an ally detachment.

Someone made a series of Legion Decurions here a while ago. I'm going to say it needs all of those. Many many options with specific buffs and endless synergy.

Master of Desception becoming straight 3 infantry units instead of d3. This alone would make infiltrating mass csm even more frightening and reliable.
Defilers need a change. But they won't get it cause it's an old model that many players allready have.

That GW stop making Deamon Engines weaker then Machines with a Dead Marine in it...

Deamonic Possession should add +1 to WS BS and Init +Deamon and be identical to PotMS, even if it would cost 25-30pts, but at least it would be worth it...

Fuxking tired of having CC specialist machines that are WS and Init3...

New types of weapons that Chaos only would use, deamonic ammos, Warp guns, Hell shells whatever, but something unique to Chaos.

Change the Icon of Despair and Icon of Change rules, take off the Marks limitations, it will help tailor your units to a specific role even better.

Give Zerkers back their second base attack?..., and options for power weapons/eviscerators in the squad, because thats one CC unit right there where there is no special CCW options...

Also make it that the Bloodthirster is Str 8 again like it used to, before they smoked something fishy at GW and made the Avator of the God of Death and War has strong as a Spawn...

Chaos Shields for Termies that would give them a 4++ Deamonic save, each time you save a wound the ennemy unit in BtB gets 1d3 Str5 AP4 blind/commotion hits.

Also if GW is mirroring the Chaos from battle, then they shuld mirror the good things, CHosen should then be like Chosens in Battle, WS5, with better armors..., if not then leave Battle the feth alone.

A Detachement/formation thing with Zerkers/khorne marked units where they can Run+assault in the same turn.

If eldars can run+shoot, and they are Shooting specialists, then i don't see why CC specialists could run+assault, was pretty dissapointed that there was no Blood Tith like this in the KDK book.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:

Make heldrakes a tad bit more expensive, but only a tad bit.

Why? They're nowhere near what they used to be. Baleflamer is scary against MEQ, hades gun is just awful. Consider the Vendetta costs the same in points.

More ideas, now that I've thought about it: better Psychic powers, give Tzeentch something better as standard (given that Tzeentch is all about magic).
More variety in our tanks. Space Marines have 4 variants of Land Raider just from Games Workshop, 2 types of Rhino, Razorbacks, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Predators, Stalkers and Hunters. You mean to say that in 10,000 years, nobody in the traitor legions stuck an AA gun on any of the tanks? No hellfire warp cannon type thing mounted on a daemonically possessed Vindicator? No dedicated Assault transport that doesn't have a serious case of Schizophrenia (looking at you, LR)?
Improve Daemonic Possession. 20pts to ignore Shaken and Stunned is fine. That, the reduction in WS, BS, and the potential to eat your passengers? feth off.

I think the daemon engines should become more varied with stats being different across the different engines geared towards what they're meant for... I'd say the daemon engines should also get something to reflect the temperament of the bound daemon and its nature as a way of introducing some abilities to the engines resulting in things like granting skyfire to a forgefiend or a double cannon shot at lowered BS from a defiler... Quirky variation.

I think the Cult Marines need better rules and stats that represent them as Elite units... If joining the ruinous powers doesn't get you anything anywhere near as good as some elite Loyalist ammo no one would waste their time with chaos gods. If not that, then simply having Elite forms of the Cult Marines.

Bring back Doomrider... Hehe

Oh, yes. Doomrider FTW. Or at least give a biker lord the options necessary to create Doomrider.

I think it'd be cool if the weapons GW adds to sell "the new hotness" were available on the other vehicles in the armoury as upgrades. Baleflamer sponsons on Land Raider for example (probably without torrent due to it being ground based application).

Echoing what others have said it's extremely stupid that Daemons become such CC kittens when they're put in an armoured shell.

I'd REALLY like some love being thrown Undivideds way. We have Khorne Bezerkertank as a superheavy, Khorne (and soon Tzeentch apparenly) DaemonMarines, Codex: NurgleDrakes, etc. I'd love an Undivided mark, Undivided Daemon Princes (Be'Lakor and 2 Primarchs set a precedent that they do exist).

Chaos Lords should not be spikey SM captains. Rookie CM from some thinblood M39 founding is a straight upgrade to a HH veteran who somehow manages to control an army of Traitors.

I could go on, that's probably enough for now.

Nothing. There's nothing that can be done. No matter what you do, CSM players will complain about it. Every single time. Always have. Always will.

-Less slowed dinobots and less dinobots.
-More useful marine troops.
-Legion rules
-Cult terminators
-An end to the stupid mark system, you either are or you are not, none of this silly half in stuff.
-Heresy era vehicles

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Someone made a series of Legion Decurions here a while ago. I'm going to say it needs all of those. Many many options with specific buffs and endless synergy.

that would be this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/642216.page **that was before we got space marines, admech and eldar, I would make much more substantial changes If I did them now. I didn't expect them to make such bold changes as free stuff and stat buffs back then.**
Far from perfect but I think I can say safely say that even relatively minor changes can do a lot to reinforce the idea that your playing any given legion over another, Which at least to me has quite the impact. So short of getting actual legion codices, I'd have to say some form of legion tactics, though maybe more in the vein of Thousand Sons, in that would be unit unlocks vs army buffs. I like the idea of your warlord mattering, so the whole warlord unlock thing could be adapted to that.

Otherwise a complete redesign pretty much. I don't buy the whole, oh 10000 years you know...all out stuff is lost shtick. They make raids for looting STC patterns and the dark mechanicus have been constantly developing new stuff that should put any impieral equivalent to shame. They know the same technqiues but also use magic in addition. And as has been said, if daemons are so badass, then how come everything with a daemon in it becomes less potent. I would understand if it adds a risk of losing control or hurting your own guys like the nom-mechanic though. Forge World daemon engines do this much better than the GW variants.

But chaos really needs more hades auto cannons and ectoplasma stuff. Many marines have fused with they heresy era weapons, so we should be seeing heresy era tech with a chaos twist... like all the rad and chem stuff on deathguard would be some kinda nurglite bioweapon stuff by now but no less potent for it.

I also would like to see more stuff like the xana lineage flyers. Potent stuff that the imperium wouldn't touch. Of course they could keep that kinda stuff for a dark mech codex too. That could be some kinda allied dex in the vein of inquisition, meant to to support csm.

Also ,obvious, a whole bunch of formations that help with the legions and reinforce the idea that these are NOT astartes marines.
And More defiling please. Like master of ordnace thing for rengeades, where you bomb your own guys. If any Codex should be able to do that , then these guys.(unless they have plans to make traitor guard I guess) Have chem weapons affect the terrain and such.
They need their own proper psychic disciplines, none of this 3 power bs. Decent soulblaze effects, stuff that creates and enhances dangerous terrain tests and so on.

And OMG, give them decent flipping deepstrike capacity already. Their masters basically ARE the warp for pete's sake. They live IN the warp.... you'd think they know how to manipulate that gak in their favour.

Daemon weapons for all please. As in all gods.
And fleshmetal as upgrades -_-. Give us back our chaos armour, it's in the fluff and we had it before.... Basically, give us back all the good ideas that GW removed for god knows what reason.
And last but not least, unique units. Like Berzerkers on juggernauts.

 Melissia wrote:
Nothing. There's nothing that can be done. No matter what you do, CSM players will complain about it. Every single time. Always have. Always will.

The same sentiment could be said about any codex.

Mathematically it is a rather strong indication however that the Chaos codexs are sub par in many instances.

And based on dakka polls the traitors legions are at least equal to the loyal ones. Therefore it would be in gws best interest to service this codex far more than it does because it is a relatively low engaged consumer base.

One big thing that's peeved me off about the current Chaos books, (Marines & Daemons), is how the God specific lores have been treated as barely an afterthought with maybe 2-3 actual 'good' powers across all three lores...

Imagine if instead, both Marines & Daemons shared the same spell lores, (ala WoC/DoC in Fantasy), and instead we got powers like;
Lore of Tzeentch:
Primaris: Flickering Fire of Tzeentch WC1-3
Witchfire S5/ap4/Assault 2D6+2 -OR- S4/ap4/Assault 3D6+3 -OR- S3/ap4/Assault 4D6+4

1. Treason of Tzeentch WC1
24"/Malediction.
Target unit must use the lowest Ld value in the unit for all moral, pinning & leadership tests.

2. Pink Fire of Tzeentch WC1
Witchfire Template/SD6/ap4/Assault 1 Torrent

3. Bolt of Change WC1
24"/Beam SD6+4/ap1/Assault 1

4. Glean Magic WC2
18"/Malediction.
Select a single enemy psyker within range. Both the caster & target roll a D6 + Ld. If the caster's roll is higher, the target immediately suffers a single S3 hit with no armour or cover saves and forgets a randomly determined psychic power. The caster may then attempt to use this power once, after which, the stolen power is destroyed.

5. Tzeentch's Firestorm WC2
Nova/9"/SD3+1/ap5/Assault 2D6+2

6. Infernal Gateway WC2
18"/Witchfire/S2D6*/ap2/Assault 1 Blast
If an 11 or 12 is rolled when determining strength, the shot counts as S10 and uses the Large Blast template.


Lore of Slaanesh:
Primaris: Lash of Slaanesh WC1
18"/Beam S5/ap-/Rending, Ignores Cover

1. Acquiescence WC1
24"/Malediction
Target unit much pass a Ld test each time it wishes to move, shoot, fire Overwatch or assault. If the test is failed, the action is lost. Vehicles count as Ld10.

2. Pavane of Slaanesh WC1
18"/Focused Witchfire.
The target model must pass a Ld test on its own Leadership. If the test is failed, the model suffers a single wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If a unit suffers any wounds, it must immediately take a Pinning test.

3. Hysterical Frenzy WC2
18"/Blessing OR 18"/Malediction
The target unit gains the Rage & Furious Charge USR's and *must* attempt to assault if an enemy unit is within range at the beginning of their Assault phase. In addition, each time the target unit takes any actions, (moving, shooting, assault, etc...), it immediately suffers D6 S4 hits with the Rending rule due to their uncontrolled frenzy.

4. Slicing Shards WC2
24"/Witchfire/*special
The target unit immediately suffers D6/S4/ap- hits with the Rending rule. The unit must then immediately take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, the unit suffers an additional D6/S4 Rending hits. Keep taking Toughness tests until the unit passes or is destroyed.

5. Phantasmagoria WC1
24"/Malediction
The target unit must roll an additional D6 whenever taking any form of Ld test, and discard the lowest roll from the result.

6. Cacophonic Choir WC3
6"/Nova *special
All units within range of the power immediately take a Ld test on 3D6. For every point the test is failed by, the unit suffers a wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. Any unit suffering at least one wound must immediately test for Pinning and will strike at -5I during the next Assault phase.


Lore of Nurgle:
Primaris: Stream of Corruption WC1
Witchfire Template/*Special
All models touched by the template must immediately pass a Toughness test, or suffer 1 wound with no armour saves allowed. Models with the Daemon of Nurgle or Mark of Nurgle are immune - they find it entirely refreshing!

1. Miasma of Pestilence WC1
12"/Blessing
Enemy units in base contact with the target unit reduce their WS & Initiative by -1 (to a minimum of 1).

2. Blades of Putrification WC1
6"/Blessing
The target unit's close combat attacks gain the Poisoned(4+) special rule. If the target unit already has the Poisoned(4+) special rule, then their Poisoned attacks are improved by +1. (ie: Poisoned(4+) becomes Poisoned(3+))

3. Curse of the Leper WC2
12" Blessing OR 12" Malediction
If cast on a friendly unit, Curse of the Leper is a Blessing that increases the target's Toughness by +1. If cast on an enemy unit, Curse of the Leper is a Malediction which reduces the target's Toughness by -1. This can effect the target's Instant Death threshold.

4. Rancid Visitations WC2
18"/Focused Witchfire/*Special
The target must immediately pass a Toughness test or suffer a wound with no Armour or Cover saves allowed. If this test is failed, the target unit must immediately take another Toughness test. Keep taking Toughness tests until the target unit passes, or else is destroyed.

5. Fleshy Abundance WC2
12"/Blessing
The target unit gains the Feel No Pain(5+) rule. If the target already has Feel No Pain, then their save is improved by +1 to a maximum of 3+

6. Plague Wind WC3
7"/Nova/*Special
All units within range must immediately take D6 Toughness tests. Any models that fail will suffer an automatic wound with no Armour or Cover saves allowed.


Now those would be well worth using over simply taking the currently no-brainer lores of Telepathy and/or Divination!

Wish listing aside, the only things CSM actually *need* to be decent are points drops and more delivery options.