Da Boss wrote: The homophobic threats sort of give it away, don't they?
Yeah I don't think a rival would literally carve die cigarette into his arms. The rest sure why not, but the carving is pretty extreme. That's pretty terrible and just pisses me off to think these things happen
Iron_Captain wrote: That is pretty horrible, altough the real motive could very well be jealous rivals rather than homophobia.
Not sure if serious...
Well, that is what the guy himself in the video said. Look at 0.43.
It also makes sense. The attacker undoubtedly hates gays, but I don't think that hatred for gays is the main motive behind the attacks. That guy has been there all his life. Why only attack him now? Also, the attackers went after the house of his parents who aren't gay.
Like small towns out in willy whacks anywhere, everyone knows everyone else's business. I think there'll be some people getting pulled in soon if they're from the same town. A little longer if they are from a neighboring town.
People pulling that crap obviously aren't too smart and get caught.
The cops are already on to some people, according to the article.
Perhaps it is a not very cunning plan to deflect attention from the assaults and criminal damage by disguising them as assaults and criminals damage hate crimes which carry a higher penalty, thus diverting police resources and making detection less likely. Or something.
When I was younger, I was around a LOT of very homophobic people.
They often would attack gay friends of mine. They also tended to attack anyone who even looked feminine (and in the Punk Scene there are no shortage of feminine looking guys).
Eventually, I put a stop to their attacks by shooting two of them.
But they are hardly the only homophobes I have encountered.
But knowing them gave me a window into their world, and into the sort of mentality they possess (as do most homophobes).
Turns out that most of them tended more than a little toward being gay themselves (several were discovered to be sleeping with guys, or having "relationships" among themselves - their justifications were hilarious).
Of course this is hardly surprising in light of recent discoveries from Harvard, Johns Hopkins, and other universities that show that pretty much all homophobes are suppressing some form of attraction to men (even if they are not outright gay).
There is more recent research that is FAR MORE Definitive than the 2012 article linked above (which I cannot link to in just one post - I will try to get it with an edit after posting this)
The length many of these people go is amazing, especially when accompanied by the Evangelical Christian focus and obsession with homosexuality (which they fear more than just about anything).
There is a tendency among the Evangelical Community to blame the parents of homosexuals for some sin or wrong they committed that caused the child to become gay (thus why the parents may have been attacked). It is sad, but the vast majority of homophobia is promoted explicitly by evangelicals, who tend to endorse "action" against what they see as a great gay conspiracy (re: "The Gay Agenda" - they aren't joking about that. They really think homosexuals organize to prey upon children, thus a great deal of their fear).
The issue is obviously very complex, as there are a great many drivers beyond just sexual repression and suppression. But starting at the foundation of paranoia and fear of homosexuals is the basics (I have read more detailed accounts of the origins of the specifics of the origins of the fear, but I would probably guess that there is no real way to communicate this on Dakka - suffice it to say that the origins are a misguided focus upon some very scatological obsessions).
Eventually, I put a stop to their attacks by shooting two of them.
Because it totally happened dude...
"In the hoodiest of hoods in Merica gays get beaten by closet gays. One man saw the injustice and took it upon himself to fix it. The Police turn a blind eye and he walks the streets to this day. A new hero was born and he continues to clean the streets. It's a job nobody wants, but a job that must be done."
So you shot 2 of them after you found they were closet homosexuals, then used it as an example for the others to fall in line? Did you kill them? Injure them? How did you become a biologist after your prison sentence?
MrDwhitey wrote: You know, if someone shot two people who were violently attacking someone else, he probably wouldn't go to prison.
Though I'm in the "that happened" camp.
Well I don't see how you can shoot someone in the middle of beating someone else up. Not without endangering everyone involved. It sounded like he went and got them afterwards. Heck even if he pulled the gun and made the attacker stop and back off, to shoot him then would be hard to justify too.
Dunno, either way will be interesting to hear more.
MrDwhitey wrote: You know, if someone shot two people who were violently attacking someone else, he probably wouldn't go to prison.
Though I'm in the "that happened" camp.
Well I don't see how you can shoot someone in the middle of beating someone else up. Not without endangering everyone involved. It sounded like he went and got them afterwards. Heck even if he pulled the gun and made the attacker stop and back off, to shoot him then would be hard to justify too.
Dunno, either way will be interesting to hear more.
Well depending on the state, you can instigate a fight with them with no witnesses, then claim you feared for your life. So long as there were no entry wounds in the back, I doubt a court could sentence you.
MrDwhitey wrote: You know, if someone shot two people who were violently attacking someone else, he probably wouldn't go to prison.
Though I'm in the "that happened" camp.
Well I don't see how you can shoot someone in the middle of beating someone else up. Not without endangering everyone involved. It sounded like he went and got them afterwards. Heck even if he pulled the gun and made the attacker stop and back off, to shoot him then would be hard to justify too.
Dunno, either way will be interesting to hear more.
Well depending on the state, you can instigate a fight with them with no witnesses, then claim you feared for your life. So long as there were no entry wounds in the back, I doubt a court could sentence you.
It can't be that easy can it? I mean what if they backed away instead of walked away? Surely there is more to it than that...
Maybe its my few credits shy of a criminal justice degree crying out for some use, but... Anyone else getting a hoax vibe from this?
1. Victim is knocked out, fully inert and at the mercy of the perpetrator(s) and perp chose the arms to carve up? Had access to the chest, the back, etc, and instead chose the INSIDE part of his arms, a smaller canvas(so to speak) and also much harder to carve up if the victim comes to, at any second, as they would be primary mode of defense. Seems sketchy. I know it sounds horrible, but think about the mechanics involved in carving a message on the inside part of someones arms. Why go through that trouble when you have other possibilities at easier disposal?
2. If perp had the intention to do the mutilation and bleach mouthwash beforehand, why not bring a rope? Did he bring the bleach? Did he get it at the pizzeria? He found bleach but not something to tie the victim up with, such as an apron or electric cord etc.
3. The safe. $1,400 dollars stolen from the safe. How'd he get into it? Know the code? Did the perp break it? With what tools? Was it unlocked to begin with? Anecdotal, but every business that I worked for that had a safe kept that thing hidden and locked at all times. How long did this robbery and assault take?
4. The rock and molotov cocktail. First we get the rock through the window that wakes no one up but the victim. Possible, maybe deep sleepers or big house. Maybe both. Then we get the money shot molotov cocktail. "It actually landed on my bed" the victim says. That just seems like an embellishment, it may have happened, but it just seems too perfect. Perp knew the exact room the vic was in, and also had the sort of aim with a flaming projectile that only pro-MLGers have. And thats after the perp tagged the house with spray paint.
5. Perp knows where vic works, where the vic lives, and where the vic sleeps, but only chooses someone elses property to vandalize/destroy or rob. Never broke into his car(if he has one) and stole stuff from that or left harassing messages. No anonymous harassing messages through interwebz/phone?
Violently anti-gay safecracking ninja grafiti artist pyromaniac stalker? Or a hoax?
Until I see the police put bracelets on a suspect(s) and he's confessed or convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, I'm going hoax all the way on the this.
MrDwhitey wrote: You know, if someone shot two people who were violently attacking someone else, he probably wouldn't go to prison.
Though I'm in the "that happened" camp.
Well I don't see how you can shoot someone in the middle of beating someone else up. Not without endangering everyone involved. It sounded like he went and got them afterwards. Heck even if he pulled the gun and made the attacker stop and back off, to shoot him then would be hard to justify too.
Dunno, either way will be interesting to hear more.
Well depending on the state, you can instigate a fight with them with no witnesses, then claim you feared for your life. So long as there were no entry wounds in the back, I doubt a court could sentence you.
It can't be that easy can it? I mean what if they backed away instead of walked away? Surely there is more to it than that...
If there's no witnesses? That's not going to be a problem. In most of the States, if there is reason to fear for your life from an aggressor, it's legal to blow the assailant away.
Eventually, I put a stop to their attacks by shooting two of them.
Because it totally happened dude...
"In the hoodiest of hoods in Merica gays get beaten by closet gays. One man saw the injustice and took it upon himself to fix it. The Police turn a blind eye and he walks the streets to this day. A new hero was born and he continues to clean the streets. It's a job nobody wants, but a job that must be done."
So you shot 2 of them after you found they were closet homosexuals, then used it as an example for the others to fall in line? Did you kill them? Injure them? How did you become a biologist after your prison sentence?
Technically, no. I did not find out about two of them having sex with each other until a few years ago, when one of them came out.
As for shooting them, if you want to dig through Texas Newspapers in Austin, Texas for 1986/87, the Austin Statesman had a story in it about the incident.
People have really vivid imaginations if they think I was so stupid as to just walk up to two guys and shoot them.
Even think they could have been shot for doing something that in the state of Texas typically gets people shot?
MB
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nels1031 wrote: Maybe its my few credits shy of a criminal justice degree crying out for some use, but... Anyone else getting a hoax vibe from this?
1. Victim is knocked out, fully inert and at the mercy of the perpetrator(s) and perp chose the arms to carve up? Had access to the chest, the back, etc, and instead chose the INSIDE part of his arms, a smaller canvas(so to speak) and also much harder to carve up if the victim comes to, at any second, as they would be primary mode of defense. Seems sketchy. I know it sounds horrible, but think about the mechanics involved in carving a message on the inside part of someones arms. Why go through that trouble when you have other possibilities at easier disposal?
2. If perp had the intention to do the mutilation and bleach mouthwash beforehand, why not bring a rope? Did he bring the bleach? Did he get it at the pizzeria? He found bleach but not something to tie the victim up with, such as an apron or electric cord etc.
3. The safe. $1,400 dollars stolen from the safe. How'd he get into it? Know the code? Did the perp break it? With what tools? Was it unlocked to begin with? Anecdotal, but every business that I worked for that had a safe kept that thing hidden and locked at all times. How long did this robbery and assault take?
4. The rock and molotov cocktail. First we get the rock through the window that wakes no one up but the victim. Possible, maybe deep sleepers or big house. Maybe both. Then we get the money shot molotov cocktail. "It actually landed on my bed" the victim says. That just seems like an embellishment, it may have happened, but it just seems too perfect. Perp knew the exact room the vic was in, and also had the sort of aim with a flaming projectile that only pro-MLGers have. And thats after the perp tagged the house with spray paint.
5. Perp knows where vic works, where the vic lives, and where the vic sleeps, but only chooses someone elses property to vandalize/destroy or rob. Never broke into his car(if he has one) and stole stuff from that or left harassing messages. No anonymous harassing messages through interwebz/phone?
Violently anti-gay safecracking ninja grafiti artist pyromaniac stalker? Or a hoax?
Until I see the police put bracelets on a suspect(s) and he's confessed or convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, I'm going hoax all the way on the this.
Could go either way.
The reporting in the incident could be really crappy (leaving many details ambiguous - of course that could be on purpose). Of course the event could have happened, but the reporting is purposefully vague so as to obscure details necessary to distinguish the perps.
Or.
The guy could be faking it. The world is full of people who wish to martyr themselves.
4. The rock and molotov cocktail. First we get the rock through the window that wakes no one up but the victim. Possible, maybe deep sleepers or big house. Maybe both. Then we get the money shot molotov cocktail. "It actually landed on my bed" the victim says. That just seems like an embellishment, it may have happened, but it just seems too perfect. Perp knew the exact room the vic was in, and also had the sort of aim with a flaming projectile that only pro-MLGers have. And thats after the perp tagged the house with spray paint.
The Molotov was the first projectile, per the story. Also, you're making assumptions regarding the perpetrators' knowledge. Jones' window may well have been the most convenient target for that sort of attack, and there may have been outwardly visible reasons to assume it was Jones' room.
As to aim: It isn't hard to throw a bottle through a target the size of a window. There are exceptions but most above ground windows, in the US, are pretty big.
Violently anti-gay safecracking ninja grafiti artist pyromaniac stalker? Or a hoax?
There would need to be more than one attacker in order to hold down Jones' arms and legs simultaneously, and it would have been easy to lift a safe key off his person during that time.
Also, by calling "hoax" you're basically denying that any of the things detailed in the article actually happened. The events may not have played out as the article describes, but gak undeniably went down.
dogma wrote: The Molotov was the first projectile, per the story. Also, you're making assumptions regarding the perpetrators' knowledge. Jones' window may well have been the most convenient target for that sort of attack, and there may have been outwardly visible reasons to assume it was Jones' room.
Then it makes less sense. Why throw a rock with a message you want to send into a fire? An anti-gay message into a gay mans room, who the happens to be the person to find the message. Too convienent.
dogma wrote: As to aim: It isn't hard to throw a bottle through a target the size of a window. There are exceptions but most above ground windows, in the US, are pretty big.
A flaming bottle, In the dark, and then to throw a rock big enough for a message of some sort through same window. Not saying it impossible, but just strikes me as too perfect.
dogma wrote: There would need to be more than one attacker in order to hold down Jones' arms and legs simultaneously, and it would have been easy to lift a safe key off his person during that time.
Per the article and his own words in the video, it was "someone" who held him down and tried to pour bleach into his mouth. He doesn't mention multiple perps.
dogma wrote: Also, by calling "hoax" you're basically denying that any of the things detailed in the article actually happened. The events may not have played out as the article describes, but gak undeniably went down.
Nah, saying its a hoax doesn't deny everything. Just that deception is taking place.
I saw this thread title and thought I’d be getting a sad story of persecution. I had no idea I’d get to read about the brutal world of pizza store wars and another story about this dude who totally shot two homophobes this one time, honestly it really happened.
A flaming bottle, In the dark, and then to throw a rock big enough for a message of some sort through same window. Not saying it impossible, but just strikes me as too perfect.
I can reliably throw a projectile, of any sort, through a target equivalent in size to a basketball hoop. A basketball hoop is much smaller than an average American window, and I am not special.
Per the article and his own words in the video, it was "someone" who held him down and tried to pour bleach into his mouth. He doesn't mention multiple perps.
How does a perpetrator hold someone down while simultaneously trying to pour bleach in the victims' mouth?
Eventually, I put a stop to their attacks by shooting two of them.
Wait, what?
How come you are not in prison?
The first rule of Internet Fight Club is one does not mention internet fight club!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nels1031 wrote: Maybe its my few credits shy of a criminal justice degree crying out for some use, but... Anyone else getting a hoax vibe from this?
1. Victim is knocked out, fully inert and at the mercy of the perpetrator(s) and perp chose the arms to carve up? Had access to the chest, the back, etc, and instead chose the INSIDE part of his arms, a smaller canvas(so to speak) and also much harder to carve up if the victim comes to, at any second, as they would be primary mode of defense. Seems sketchy. I know it sounds horrible, but think about the mechanics involved in carving a message on the inside part of someones arms. Why go through that trouble when you have other possibilities at easier disposal?
2. If perp had the intention to do the mutilation and bleach mouthwash beforehand, why not bring a rope? Did he bring the bleach? Did he get it at the pizzeria? He found bleach but not something to tie the victim up with, such as an apron or electric cord etc.
3. The safe. $1,400 dollars stolen from the safe. How'd he get into it? Know the code? Did the perp break it? With what tools? Was it unlocked to begin with? Anecdotal, but every business that I worked for that had a safe kept that thing hidden and locked at all times. How long did this robbery and assault take?
4. The rock and molotov cocktail. First we get the rock through the window that wakes no one up but the victim. Possible, maybe deep sleepers or big house. Maybe both. Then we get the money shot molotov cocktail. "It actually landed on my bed" the victim says. That just seems like an embellishment, it may have happened, but it just seems too perfect. Perp knew the exact room the vic was in, and also had the sort of aim with a flaming projectile that only pro-MLGers have. And thats after the perp tagged the house with spray paint.
5. Perp knows where vic works, where the vic lives, and where the vic sleeps, but only chooses someone elses property to vandalize/destroy or rob. Never broke into his car(if he has one) and stole stuff from that or left harassing messages. No anonymous harassing messages through interwebz/phone?
Violently anti-gay safecracking ninja grafiti artist pyromaniac stalker? Or a hoax?
Until I see the police put bracelets on a suspect(s) and he's confessed or convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, I'm going hoax all the way on the this.
My paranoia meter actually...agrees.
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sebster wrote: I saw this thread title and thought I’d be getting a sad story of persecution. I had no idea I’d get to read about the brutal world of pizza store wars and another story about this dude who totally shot two homophobes this one time, honestly it really happened.
Days like this I really love dakka.
Dakka is like a river to its people.
Could be real, could be false (always good to be suspicious).
There would probably be corraborating witnesses to the attempted firebombing and the how the money was stolen.
As to Austin murders in the 80s. Um ok...what? Huh?
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I can reliably throw a projectile, of any sort, through a target equivalent in size to a basketball hoop. A basketball hoop is much smaller than an average American window, and I am not special.
As to the hoax thing, maybe. An aquaintence once said he was beaten and robbed when he went downstairs in his apartment complex to a soda machine. For months, he said he had no memory of the attack, just that he came to sitting on the stairs. It turned out he was lying and trying to cover up some misdeeds of his own and the consequence he reaped.
Also, we have cases like Tawana Brawley, where the "victim" jacked themselves up to make it look like they were attacked.
The guy lived in this town his whole life and nothing remotely like this happened to him, and as I said, in small towns out in the willies, everyone knows everyone else's business.
On the other hand, there are some truly repulsive people out there in the world that think nothing of doing crap like this to the point that they believe they are actually performing a public service. At this time, I don't see the guy's percentage in mutilating himself and robbing his own place of business.
There is no way this wasn't all staged. You don't make someone drink bleach and carve gak into their arms only then go spray paint their garage door. It's a completely illogical progression.
This is supposedly the damage from the "Molotov cocktail".
I think it's only a matter of time before it's revealed he did this for attention.
Eventually, I put a stop to their attacks by shooting two of them.
Wait, what?
How come you are not in prison?
The first rule of Internet Fight Club is one does not mention internet fight club!
So true, but not sure it applies here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote: I saw this thread title and thought I’d be getting a sad story of persecution. I had no idea I’d get to read about the brutal world of pizza store wars and another story about this dude who totally shot two homophobes this one time, honestly it really happened.
Days like this I really love dakka.
Dakka is like a river to its people.
Could be real, could be false (always good to be suspicious).
There would probably be corraborating witnesses to the attempted firebombing and the how the money was stolen.
As to Austin murders in the 80s. Um ok...what? Huh?
I never said I killed the guys. It is possible to shoot people without killing them. In one case, I could have killed the guy, and the fact I didn't caused me all manner of grief (the cops were even pissed off about it - turns out it created a lot of grief for them as well).
People's imaginations run wild on things like this, when they don't stop to think about the fact that there could be a long, long history that led to the situation in question.
Have a look at the History of the Confederate Hammerskins in Texas.
Prior to the founding of the Hammerskins, I used to ferry the founding members to Punk Shows at the Twilite Room, or Theatre Gallery in downtown Dallas.
After the Founding of the Hammerskins, we drifted apart, but tried to remain civil to each other.
Around late 1986, a substantial number of skinheads from California and Colorado (including Terry Bash, the head of the BASH Boys - Bay Area Skin Heads, from the SF Bay Area, and Mark Dagger, a notorious Skinhead from Los Angeles) moved to Texas.
These new Skinheads has no prior history of relationship with me, and refused to tolerate the truce in existence between the group of people I typically hung out with (the first Generation of Texas Deathrockers and Goths), and the Confederate Hammers (which was a rocky truce due to sexual politics involving a substantial number of punk girls who wound up dating members of both groups, producing more than a little jealousy).
So, when I was in Austin (where My family owned a house, and I spent roughly half my time in Texas), two of the Colorado skinheads decided to try to break into my house to do some sort of bodily harm to me (later, one of my friends among the Skins told me they actually intended to kill me, despite what they claimed after I shot them - the plan I was told was that they intended to kill me and make it look like I was killed in the process of walking in on a burglary by a minority - everything was always about making it look like minorities did everything; that whole "trying to start a race-war" thing with them). One of them was actually inside my house when I shot him (in the left pelvis, breaking his ilium and dislocating the joint between the ilium and femur - the ball joint at our hip) and the other was fleeing (I don't recall whether he made it through the window before I shot him or not - but I caught him in the right chest/shoulder. His wounds were technically much more serious).The one inside could not move, and the one outside was caught a few blocks away, staggering along an alley.
That is basically the details of the events. I made it clear to the kid in my house, as did the police later, that I could have killed him without a worry in the world, and that his friend might well be just as dead with only slightly more hassle since he wasn't wholly inside my house (Stand your ground laws were not as rigid then as they are now).
The Austin American Statesman ran a story about it the next day. I don't recall the exact dates, but it was sometime in late-86/early-87 if I remember correctly.
Most kids today have a hard time relating to life in a fringe subculture that existed in the 60s - 80s. They all became "mainstream" in the 1990s/00s.
But it was dangerous in many of them, as we were constantly threatened by mainstream society, and particularly the more conservative and redneck elements. These two skinheads were hardly the only people I shot or shot at, nor am I alone in having something like that happen in the Punk-related subcultures of the time. And people killing each other in the Hardcore and Skinhead scenes was something that occurred with unsettling frequency (several of us are starting to write books about the experiences).
Also, drugs, and hard drugs, were much more common in those scenes than they are today.
Nearly everyone in the Goth scene in Texas and California did heroin, many of us died from that. Real meth (not that pseudo-ephedrine crap that exists now) was also common. Two very good friends of mine were killed due to Meth, shot by a paranoid cook while they slept.
And the Skinhead scene was positively awash in PCP, which made them even more dangerous.
So... Pardon that you have lived such a sheltered life that you cannot cope with others who lived very much on, or beyond, the edge as they could.
If he was was fleeing and you shot him thats murder.
While I am not representing you legally, I'd suggest you employ you right against self incrimination. Note there is no statute of limitation on murder in Texas.
The rest of that...wait I thought we were talking about pizza. I'm confused.
Frazzled wrote: If he was was fleeing and you shot him thats murder.
Technically, no.
And, obviously you did not read what happened.
I suppose the guy is alive and well someplace, in his late-40s/early-50s now (now that I think about it, he may still be in prison for someting he did later while on parole for yet another crime).
If someone is inside your house in the State of Texas, without your permission (in fact, this is the case in almost all 50 states), then you are free to kill them.
If someone is on your property (but not immediately inside your house), then killing them is permissible if they present what is considered an immediate/obvious threat.
The guy who fled ditched the weapons he had, so there was a little bit of a question over whether he presented such a threat, but the fact he was a skinhead, and had a rather substantial record of assault, and that he had been thrown out of another state for such acts of violence worked in my favor to avoid any charges (which would have amounted to little more than a "discharging a weapon" given the situation.
Also, even if I had killed him, it would not have been "murder," it would have been a justified self-defense, since he would be laying right next to, or draped over, my window, and the weapons he was carrying would have made clear his intentions.
MB
Automatically Appended Next Post: Frazzled....
You live in Texas and you don't know this stuff???
If someone is inside your house in the State of Texas, without your permission (in fact, this is the case in almost all 50 states), then you are free to kill them.
NO. It means you have no duty to retreat. You are not "free to kill him."
If they are not in your house juries will not typically find them to an immediate obvious threat. Now if you disagree fine, I could epically care less. But I'm familiar with the jury trials here and this is bad advice to anyone who doesn't want to go to prison or get a needle.
(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;
I have highlighted the relevant sections of the Texas Penal Code detailing the legality of what transpired, and that I would have been fully justified to actually kill the two.
to continue with the Penal Code § 9.31
(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.
(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;
(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under Subsection (c);
(3) if the actor consented to the exact force used or attempted by the other;
(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless:
(A) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and
(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor; or
(5) if the actor sought an explanation from or discussion with the other person concerning the actor's differences with the other person while the actor was:
(A) carrying a weapon in violation of Section 46.02; or
(B) possessing or transporting a weapon in violation of Section 46.05.
(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:
(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.
(d) The use of deadly force is not justified under this subchapter except as provided in Sections 9.32, 9.33, and 9.34.
(e) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before using force as described by this section.
(f) For purposes of Subsection (a), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (e) reasonably believed that the use of force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.
The point where I had difficulties in this case was with (b)(4)(A), where it was not clear if the actor who provoked a use of force clearly communicated their intent to retreat. Considering his compatriot was clearly inside my house, and in possession of weapons, and that the other was inside the house when the confrontation began, and also had weapons (the police believed this to be the case given the possession of weapons by the first), and both had lengthy records of assault, and suspicion in the commission of murder against minorities in the state of Colorado, the Police and DA felt that no further investigation was needed, and that I acted entirely within my rights.
Frazzled wrote: If someone is inside your house in the State of Texas, without your permission (in fact, this is the case in almost all 50 states), then you are free to kill them.
NO. It means you have no duty to retreat. You are not "free to kill him."
If they are not in your house juries will not typically find them to an immediate obvious threat. Now if you disagree fine, I could epically care less. But I'm familiar with the jury trials here and this is bad advice to anyone who doesn't want to go to prison or get a needle.
Frazzled....
You live in Texas and you don't know this stuff???
Oh I know "this stuff." You've added facts now. but again, whatever, I'm not having this argument on Dakka. Do what you want to do, again I don't care.
Wow, Texas really sounds like some kind of Wild West where people have daily shootouts in the streets now. With those subcultures, I am guessing there was some shady stuff going on? There had to be something at stake, even the bratva doesn't start killing people just because they hate them. I guess there is more reason for those guys breaking into your house than just them hating you. But... Maybe we'd better not know. I highly doubt it is related to pizza anyway, and as Frazzled said, Dakka is not the kind of place for discussing this.
I do not think anyone has confessed to a murder here, nor to anything which is not already a matter of public record (as I pointed out in my own case, the event I was involved in was reported in at least one Texas Newspaper).
And I am not sure anything else applies to Durst's situation, either.... So... more than a little confused by the tangential reference.
Could be real, could be false (always good to be suspicious).
There would probably be corraborating witnesses to the attempted firebombing and the how the money was stolen.
Yeah, I think there’s a difference between suspicion, which is good, and wild speculation. Suspicion would something along the lines of ‘let’s see how this plays out as police investigate’. What we’ve seen here, though, has been talk of rival pizza stores undertaking a brutal campaign, likely triggering the franchise wars in which only Taco Bell can emerge victorious.
No, I know you didn't say you killed them. Even if if wasn't clear from what you wrote I would have assumed it, because when a kid decides to tell this story, which seems to happen about once every two years, they always wound the guy, and never kill them. I don't know why, I guess making it just a wounding makes them think their story is more believable.
If you would like to hear about the people I have killed, I could go into that.
There are people I intended to kill, and did kill. And some that I am not sure whether they are alive or dead, given the situation.
A few of them have caused quite severe PTSD, from the first time I was in Pakistan/Afghanistan in the 1980s.
You do realize that there are people in this world who have not lived what are typical lives?
As it stands, maybe I will see if I can dig up the Newspaper stories on the episode.
I know quite a few people who have shot other people (aside from military, in which case that raises the number significantly), or stabbed other people, or in a few cases, beat others to death.
Sometimes, people are payed to do dangerous things, or they simply fall in with a crowd that tends to be overly violent (or both).
Robert Durst is a millionaire who had this unfortunate tendency of having people around him die in unfortunate coincidences.
He always seemed to have a perfect alibi for these incidents, yet seemed to be considerably suspicious in each case (had motive).
They created a reality show centered on him, and during the filming of it, he went to the bathroom.
While he was peeing, he began to talk to himself, thinking that no one was listening, yet he had left on the wireless microphone used for the TV show, which recorded his conversation with himself.
That conversation implicated him in several of the murders for which he was considered a suspect:
I think someone had the mistaken impression that I was accidentally confessing to a crime I had committed. Just as a guess, since there is no real context, and more than a few people have questioned the events as being murder (jumping to conclusions came to mind).
Of course, it could also apply to the owner of the Pizza Shop, trying to fake a crime against himself (as this was a ploy Durst used in one of the murders to gain an alibi). But, again, no context.
Only just now? But seriously guys, you are about as far off topic as you can be, so less of the Rambo III and more of the pizza topic, or we'll just have to lock it up and move on
Well, if this was all faked for attention rather than a real crime, it certainly worked.
Not saying it was faked, but there is definitely something odd about this story.
Well, if this was all faked for attention rather than a real crime, it certainly worked.
Not saying it was faked, but there is definitely something odd about this story.
The damage done to his pizzeria, his home and his body are superficial. The safe had been broken into two times and each time for a relatively small amount of money. Both crimes were committed within a few weeks of one another. If I was their insurance company, I would be hard pressed to pay out on this. The more i read about this story, the more obvious it gets.
Kilkrazy wrote: Advanced victim blaming at its best.
There is no point in waiting for the results of the police investigation.
So let me get this straight..
His store is robbed and he was attacked.. Safe was opened.. no witnesses and no physical evidence.
His home was vandalized (garage spray painted).. no witnesses and no physical evidence.
His store was robbed a second time and safe was empties a 2nd time even though the combination was changed. no witnesses and no physical evidence.
His home was vandalized (Molotov cocktail).. He immediately put out the fire. no witnesses and no physical evidence.
4 separate instances where a safe cracking vandal left no physical evidence and no witnesses to the crime. It must be Bigfoot.
Other articles mention the safe. As well as mentioning that the victim called home to get the combination the night that he was assaulted. I'll find it when I get home, or get time to search for it while I'm slacking off at work.
Rick Jones may have suffered amnesia after so many blows to the head. But the words “Die cigarette,” sliced into both of his scarred arms make it impossible to forget the first ambush.
It was April 25 at closing time at his family’s pizzeria just off Main Street in downtown Delta, Utah. Jones told his hands to go home.
Then the 27-year-old was suddenly cold-clocked, force-fed bleach, and robbed by bandits. Months passed. Then, this past Wednesday, Jones’s life was almost snuffed when his bedroom went alight at dawn immediately after some maniac tossed a Molotov cocktail that crashed into his window. Miraculously, it didn’t detonate.
The attack on Jones was particularly ferocious. But it wasn’t uncommon, unfortunately. Out of the almost 6,000 hate crimes committed in 2013—the last year for which statistics are available—20 percent (approximately 1,200 that year) were based on victims’ sexual orientation, according to the FBI.
This incident started with Jones thinking he couldn’t be touched.
The family-owned Grand Central Pizzeria, which Jones runs along with his sisters and parents, has a policy in place for safety’s sake to never close up solo. “He sent his last employees home for the night saying, ‘I’ll finish this,’” Ricky’s mom Terri Jones, who works as a chef at the eatery, told The Daily Beast. “My son, being a male, was thinking he’s invincible.”
Alone, and with a few duties such as batching receipts and tossing the trash outside, everything seemed routine until Jones was broadsided and outnumbered.
“I went out to take out the trash, and when I came back in I thought it was strange that I didn’t hear the door close,” Jones told Gay Salt Lake. “I turned around to shut the door, and someone grabbed me by the head and slammed me to the wall.”
In almost sicko ninja fashion, the robbers sicced Jones from behind. He never caught a glimpse of the invaders who proceeded to pummel him into unconsciousness.
The beach-blonde young man was tossed like a ragdoll against the wall and socked in the jaw. Jones managed to regain consciousness to see an intruder pinning him down. “I remember waking up and I was lying on the floor,” he said. “Someone was on my chest and legs and they were trying to force me to drink bleach.”
At one point he managed to make a bizarre phone call to his mom who was at home nearby the Grand Central Pizzeria restaurant.
“He called us and mentioned, ‘I can’t remember the combination to the safe. Do you have it,’” Terri Jones recalled. “We’re thinking he was forced to make that call.”
Then the cruel crooks defiled her only son.
They knifed into his forearms “Die cigarette” and scurried away with over $1,000 from the eatery’s safe.
"I remember waking up and I was lying on the floor. Someone was on my chest and legs and they were trying to force me to drink bleach.”
“They took all the money but they did not destroy anything else or take anything—and we have expensive food,” she said, stressing that her son has been afflicted with amnesia after the episode.
He was left for naught for three hours of eerie unconsciousness on the floor after suffering a massive concussion, a goose egg on his head and a bruised jaw after being socked.
The cruel crooks were calculated and made a clean getaway, the concerned mother said.
“They were very prepared and this was very well-planned,” she noted, downplaying the vile homophobic hate speech tattooed on her son and peppered in each attack. “My thought is that it’s somebody that saw a quick and easy way to make money and kept robbing us,” she said, with anguish causing her voice to break.
The family-owned and run restaurant shuttered for a couple days and tried to play down the vicious attack on Ricky on its Facebook page. “After Saturday night’s events, we are closed tonight only… Thank you all for the love and support. It has been a great encouragement.”
Then—not a week later, on April 30—Ricky Jones and his family were met with the same “Die cigarette” missive, spray painted on their garage door, authorities told The Daily Beast.
“It was just five days later and they tagged our garage,” Terri Jones said.
On Wednesday, a few days after Utah Pride Festival Weekend concluded, the Jones family was attacked twice again. Thieves tossed a rock into the restaurant and jimmied open another backdoor in the middle of the night to empty the safe again.
“We changed the safe combination and somehow they were still able to steal everything inside,” she fumed of the safe that was tucked in the pizzeria’s back office. “We will be talking to the manufacturer of the safe because we feel like they sold us a faulty product.”
Later that same day, the family, sound asleep, was firebombed.
“We were all sound asleep in bed and Ricky heard a crash and felt something land in the bed next to him,’ Terri Jones said. “It was a rock and then he saw flames on his floor and he jumped out of bed and started yelling ‘Fire!’”
The soda bottle filled with gasoline had landed setting Ricky Jones’s room alight. But the device failed to explode. “He jumped out of bed and took the extinguisher and began spraying the flames out.”
The mother of the faithful Baptist family believes there was some form of divine intervention at play. “The bottle, when it hit it the bed and broke off and fell to the floor, if [the soda bottle] had broken my Ricky wouldn’t be here… It’s only by God’s hand that he’s safe. I strongly believe he has kept him safe and will keep him safe,” she said.
Right now the mother is trying to play sentry over her family but is at a loss on who would want to rip them off and target her beloved son. “I don’t know anybody who is more liked than our son,” she said.
Detectives are trying to catch whoever did this by ramping up their patrols and keeping a closer eye on the victim. But the string of attacks is doing a number on a the town of Delta, Utah (population just under 3,500) which was described by Jones’s mom as a real life utopia.
Yet after multiple robberies and bigoted-fueled salvos against her family Terri Jones is terrified to be home or anywhere else.
“This just doesn’t happen here,” she told The Daily Beast in a phone interview. “The town is kind of like a Mayberry. People are kind and they are supportive and gracious. It’s a great community to live in. We are very confused by all of this.”
“It’s nice to think we’re Mayberry but we passed that a long time ago,” Millard County Sheriff Robert Dekker told The Daily Beast.
Lindsay Mitchell, who has been running the records department at the sheriff’s office for a decade, said that hate crime is alien to Delta. “I’ve been doing records for ten years and there’s never been anything nothing like this before,” she said. “We have the usual drug crimes, traffic offenses and there’s times when they busted different meth labs. But this is new.”
On the pattern of assaults and money grabs on the Jones family—specifically targeting Ricky Jones, Sheriff Dekker is certain it adds up to the worst kind of prejudice. “There’s no doubt I would call it a hate crime,” he said. “Each incident refers to something about [Jones] being gay saying ‘Die cigarette!’”
While Millard County Sheriffs are chalking Ricky Jones’s attacks as hate crimes, Jones’s mother is not trying to let the incidents get swallowed up by some sort of political agenda. All Terri Jones wants to do is to protect her family, and is praying the deputies catch these fiends. “Hate is hate no matter how you put it,” she said. “Whether somebody hates you because of your religion or the color of your skin or because they don’t like the tone of your voice it’s all the same.”
Authorities: Gay slur carved into Utah man's arm was staged
By LINDSAY WHITEHURST
Associated Press
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- A man who reported someone beat him and carved a homophobic slur into his arm staged the attacks, authorities in rural Utah said Tuesday.
Millard County Sheriff Robert Dekker said Rick Jones, 21, could face charges after officers investigating the series of reported attacks found inconsistencies in the evidence. The Delta man eventually acknowledged faking the harassment, Dekker said.
Brett Tolman, an attorney for Jones, said the reports were a cry for help initially directed toward people close to him, and Jones didn't realize how much attention they would get.
"I think it's such good evidence of the difficulties members of the gay community deal with, and some make better choices than others," Tolman said.
Jones has since begun mental health treatment, the lawyer said.
The purported attacks began with a beating at his family's pizza business in April that left Jones with head and facial bruising.
Five days later, the family's home was found spray-painted with a homophobic slur. On June 10, a rock and a molotov cocktail were thrown through the window of the home. That same day, the business was spray-painted, broken into and robbed of $1,000.
Jones told KSL-TV earlier this month he believed he was targeted because he is gay.
Dekker said prosecutors are considering possible charges including filing a false report and reckless burning.
Tolman said Jones didn't have any criminal intent and the outpouring of support after the allegations became public was a good message.
Lt. Gov. Spencer Cox publicly declared his support after the allegations were reported. Cox said Tuesday that he's relieved that the troubling allegations weren't authentic, but he's concerned for Jones and his family and hopes they find "peace and healing."
I wonder if the store will offer re-imbursement to those folks who made a pilgrimage to honor and make offerings to this martyr of anti-gay hate.
I also saw a few of the sites that carried this story that a gofundme campaign was started as well, if that was legit, that money needs to be returned.
Probably under the argument that he was alleging multiple hate crimes against himself for being gay, thus inciting bigotry and animosity himself.
But didn't it have the opposite effect?
Oh, but what about charging him for a Hate Crime for hating on himself!
Read the comments section on any site that carried this story and you'll see the Mormon faith local to that area blamed for the crime, despite every article stating that such crimes have never occurred in the area in recent memory. A minority faith was painted in a very bad light because of this crime, and I think a special kind of penalty should be leveled against this fraud.
Co'tor Shas wrote: But did he actually level at charges at them? If not, it's just fraud.
I think in todays socio-political environment, we know who is getting a finger pointed at first for such crimes, accusation or not. Other people can and will accuse on his behalf. I believe there should be a penalty for the way such a crime can divide a community.
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Relapse wrote: Now some real real victims will be ignored or attacked because of this.
It really shouldn't if the facts and evidence make sense. But you're right, some folks will jump to conclusions and cast aspersions, either way.
Not surprised at all here. I thought it smelled fishy from the start and after nels pointed those things out it became pretty obvious for me.
Now I think he himself should be charged with a hate crime against gays
Co'tor Shas wrote: But did he actually level at charges at them? If not, it's just fraud.
I think in todays socio-political environment, we know who is getting a finger pointed at first for such crimes, accusation or not. Other people can and will accuse on his behalf. I believe there should be a penalty for the way such a crime can divide a community.
Perhaps, but this AFAIK, there is nothing under the law for that. They can charge him with fraud, but that's it.
Probably under the argument that he was alleging multiple hate crimes against himself for being gay, thus inciting bigotry and animosity himself.
But didn't it have the opposite effect?
Oh, but what about charging him for a Hate Crime for hating on himself!
Read the comments section on any site that carried this story and you'll see the Mormon faith local to that area blamed for the crime, despite every article stating that such crimes have never occurred in the area in recent memory. A minority faith was painted in a very bad light because of this crime, and I think a special kind of penalty should be leveled against this fraud.
Minority faith? On what planet do you dwell that the Mormons are a minority faith?
I think in todays socio-political environment, we know who is getting a finger pointed at first for such crimes, accusation or not. Other people can and will accuse on his behalf. I believe there should be a penalty for the way such a crime can divide a community.
Then Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck should both be in jail. Hell, all of FoxNews should be in jail.
Co'tor Shas wrote: But did he actually level at charges at them? If not, it's just fraud.
I think in todays socio-political environment, we know who is getting a finger pointed at first for such crimes, accusation or not. Other people can and will accuse on his behalf. I believe there should be a penalty for the way such a crime can divide a community.
Perhaps, but this AFAIK, there is nothing under the law for that. They can charge him with fraud, but that's it.
You're right. I meant to start off my reply with a "True, but..."
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Psienesis wrote: Minority faith? On what planet do you dwell that the Mormons are a minority faith?
Planet Earth, specifically United States. Where Mormons are massively dwarfed by mainline Protestants and Catholics, thus making them a minority faith. What planet do you live on where they are a majority faith? If I'm wrong and the Mormon faith exploded with converts while I wasn't looking, please show me some facts.
Then Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck should both be in jail. Hell, all of FoxNews should be in jail.
Have they concocted false crimes and painted them as hate crimes?
Co'tor Shas wrote: But did he actually level at charges at them? If not, it's just fraud.
I think in todays socio-political environment, we know who is getting a finger pointed at first for such crimes, accusation or not. Other people can and will accuse on his behalf. I believe there should be a penalty for the way such a crime can divide a community.
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Relapse wrote: Now some real real victims will be ignored or attacked because of this.
It really shouldn't if the facts and evidence make sense. But you're right, some folks will jump to conclusions and cast aspersions, either way.
Yep. Just checked a couple comment sections to do with this story and already some statements are being made about faked hate crimes probably being responsible for most reports or people wanting to be victimized. This guy really screwed the pooch.
Is this a tragedy because people wont be so easy to believe claims of hate crime?
Or is it actually blessing because it will lead people not to believe that all claims of hate crime are automatically warranted.
Frankly I think the latter, there is a double bias in these cases, first societal need to believe a protected minority, and second a societal anger against those who are accused of breaking taboos. Savvy protected peoples are often more than aware of the power now placed in thier hands to label and ruin others, with paedoscare being the most frequently encountered problem. As a fair number of vindictive young people have lie to get a adult into a huge amount of trouble, and many lives have been ruined by this, authorities are wise to these abuses.
All in all exposure of fake cases is a good thing, because the automatic belief if someone due to their protected status while having the veneer of equality is in fact very unequal, having privileged access to support by claiming to be victimised due to minority status is also unequal.
Real equality comes when protected status affords no special protection, just the guarantee of normal civic protection, and these offending s special status individual are not treated any more harshly than an offense against anyone else.
I guess the only silver lining is the community support that emerged from it? Happy to see hatred (albeit faked) met with its proper 21st century response.
I guess the only silver lining is the community support that emerged from it? Happy to see hatred (albeit faked) met with its proper 21st century response.
Delta is such a small town in the podunks, I guess the case was bound to be quickly solved one way or the other.
Orlanth wrote: I called this one as not adding up on page one.
Is this a tragedy because people wont be so easy to believe claims of hate crime?
Or is it actually blessing because it will lead people not to believe that all claims of hate crime are automatically warranted.
Frankly I think the latter, there is a double bias in these cases, first societal need to believe a protected minority, and second a societal anger against those who are accused of breaking taboos. Savvy protected peoples are often more than aware of the power now placed in thier hands to label and ruin others, with paedoscare being the most frequently encountered problem. As a fair number of vindictive young people have lie to get a adult into a huge amount of trouble, and many lives have been ruined by this, authorities are wise to these abuses.
All in all exposure of fake cases is a good thing, because the automatic belief if someone due to their protected status while having the veneer of equality is in fact very unequal, having privileged access to support by claiming to be victimised due to minority status is also unequal.
Real equality comes when protected status affords no special protection, just the guarantee of normal civic protection, and these offending s special status individual are not treated any more harshly than an offense against anyone else.
Some good points in there. First off have you ever seen the Swedish film "The Hunt"? Its a great story of a man accused of pedophilia and the follow on destruction of his life. It is chilling to think of being put in such a situation in real life.
I've always found the term "hate crime" to be a bit redundant. Aren't all violent crimes by their very nature hateful? If a heterosexual man carved "die " into the forearm of another heterosexual man would it be any less hateful?
I think the impact of fake cases is disproportionate relative to their number. How many false accusations of rape are there? Not that many, yet rape convictions are notoriously hard to secure partly due to this underlying suspicion that it's being made up. Whenever there's a rape claim, skepticism is abound, I've heard the same comments of disbelief time and again in manner you don't get for things like burglary. Which is why so many don't report in the first place. False reporting of crime has a big impact, it's fairly rare to be completely made up yet a large number of genuine cases are viewed with suspicion thereafter as though it were commonplace.
False reporting of crime should be prosecuted somewhere between wasting police time to perverting the course of justice or even perjury, depending on how far it is taken. It shouldn't be treated lightly.
Some good points in there. First off have you ever seen the Swedish film "The Hunt"? Its a great story of a man accused of pedophilia and the follow on destruction of his life. It is chilling to think of being put in such a situation in real life.
I have seen this in action on no less than four occasions with different people., none of whom were paedophiles and one was myself.
In my case some drug dealers wanted rid of me because I was a family friend of someone who was getting deeper into addiction and tried to get in their way. Thankfully the police saw through the paedo allegations immediately and acted against the accusers, these drug dealers were however cheap and replied on hearsay, had they been more professional and bribed a kid to make a false statement it could have been a lot worse trouble.
Though getting me in trouble with the police wasn't the goal, it was to spread a rumour that "Orlanth (real name used though) is a paedo", and a stalker to boot, the person I was 'stalking' being the drug victim. The goal of that was that any beered up crowd that saw me would do the drug dealers work for them, it's a beating/knifing by proxy, with the accusers hands nominally clean of blood. I understood and didn't sit on this, or hide as many do, but went straight to the police who to make a long story short chased the drug dealers out of town. It helped that the victims mother wrote an testimony that vindicated me, and confirmed I was acting with her blessing, and that the local police were aware of what I was doing.
Nevertheless I was given a police order not to approach the drug victim, but the wording was far less stringent to the one they each had about approaching me, the former requiring a high level of proof, the later only requiring my word and a call to police emergency services, which I was requested to do on sight.. My own restriction I was quietly informed later by a friendly face was for my protection as the dug dealers were considering other means or removing me.
We lost the fight to stop the drug dealers turning the victim into something akin to an undead though, so I didn't achieve what I set out to so, but did escape consequence of retaliation.
One of the nastiest cases I herd of was this man in a council estate who 'looked like a paedo' which doesn't make any sense because paedos could be anyone. He was just fat, unkempt and living on his own, so he 'must be a pervert right.' Anyone one evening a 15 year old girl on the estate went to her friends house to play computer games rather than go home from school, but stayed far longer than usual. When she finally decided to go home late in the evening her 'worried' parents, who had not so far bothered to make any attempt to find her, got angry. The girl panicked and rather than tell the truth said she was accosted by the 'local paedo'. A brute squad was gathered from most adult males in the estate, and only later when she found out how much damage her local community had done to the victim, plus the fact that she was known by others o have been playing computer games, did she come clean.
Worst part about this is the police did nothing; and the local community, rather than face up to their own actions, justified themselves that he must have had it coming because he was still allegedly the 'local paedo'.
One other thing I have learned is that a paedo allegation is automatically believed by most female police officers. In all the other cases I heard of female officers work on the principle of condemn first and reluctantly accept innocence only after the most vigorous proven defence. If this tactic is used on you are anyone you know, find a male law enforcement officer, it makes a difference.
Because its so taboo and so dangerous accusing people of being child molesters is the smear of choice by organised crime and vindictive lowlives. Its only on rare occasions that the mud doesn't stick, I got lucky, lucky enough I even talk about it. but even in my case I only escaped damage because spoke to the police early, was known in the community as a decent and morally upright individual, my accusers were the opposite and at last two people went out of their way to protest my innocence on my behalf.
I was fortunate indeed.
I've always found the term "hate crime" to be a bit redundant. Aren't all violent crimes by their very nature hateful? If a heterosexual man carved "die " into the forearm of another heterosexual man would it be any less hateful?
No, but society doesn't work that way. Right are more uneven than prior to political correctness.
The problem with harsher punishment for this person for lying is that in the rare case of someone doing a similar thing, they'll be more likely to keep up the act and not come clean out of fear of the consequences. It's best to give him a firm punishment, but not one a person in a similar situation would be totally afraid of.
" into the forearm of another heterosexual man would it be any less hateful?