If you had to choose one army for Games Workshop to get rid of and then you could use the money that they were spending on that army and have them spend it on an army of your choice what would you choose?


Cheers, C66

Space Wolves or Blood Angels.

Space Wolves are quite simply probably the worst written faction at this point, with the most hypocritical, contradictory, and flat out poorly written and painful to read fluff in the game. They've let their theme run amok from a motif to bad parody.

Blood Angels probably just because I think just about every game I've ever played against them, over four or five editions and probably half a dozen cities, was with an unpleasant TFG.

Space Marine sub-factions,

I honestly understand that every Chapter is different, and has their own heroes and their own abilities that should be different from the other Rines',

But I don't see why it's necessary to make a codex for several of them, as opposed to combining them into one large Astartes book?

This could eliminate the weird imbalances that jump from Codex to Codex for the Rine's as well.

The shift for money?

I would love to say Orks, but there's really only a handful of models that need updating and the codex is 'okay'.

I'd say the armies that need the most love are SoB. They're falling off the curve hard

Ditch Imperial Knights, and spend the resources on getting CSM up-to-speed rules-wise and models-wise.

As a space marines, Dark angels and blood angels player, I would get rid of space marines sub faction, add a few new chapter tactics and, like black templars, add the specialized models to the correct chapter tactics in the main space marines codex.

I would pump the money in Sistrers of battles(complete plastic overhaul) and Taus (add a few new models).

Scrap Space Marines to get plastic Sisters

If I had to pick one? Space Marine subfactions. It's enough to have loyalist and chaos marines, just like we have craftworld and dark eldar.

Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum

Get your Bolt Action out of my Sci-Fi.

Imperial Knights and Tematus are the only factions I'd ever consider removing. both have a serious lack of unit choices and are simply spinoffs of a already estabilished instead of being sufficently new. Every other GW have support for right now has far too many players who would be incredibly annoyed by discountination to even reasonably consider the latter.

 Vaktathi wrote:


Blood Angels probably just because I think just about every game I've ever played against them, over four or five editions and probably half a dozen cities, was with an unpleasant TFG.

The quality of players of a faction in a small part of a single country has has no effect on the quality of said faction overall

Tyranids. Stupid fluff, ugly models. I'd kill them off even if I don't get to spend their resources elsewhere.

Other than that, I wouldn't get rid of any army. I'd certainly consolidate all of the marine factions into a single book (and probably remove some of their special snowflake units in the process) and demons would lose some of their units and go into a combined chaos book with demons + cultists + CSM. But that would be a reorganization, not a complete removal.

Kill off the Tau, do whatever with the money.

Yeah, a few factions can be rolled into existing ones, but then GW couldn't sell another $70 book. That's really what it's all about.

Orks.

I'd scrap WHFB/AOS entirely and use the money to turn every non-plastic model into a multi-part plastic kit for every faction.

All of the Space Marine subfactions. They need to be combined with the Space Marine codex. I've not read very much about Blood or Dark Angels, but I understand that each faction, including Space Wolves, clearly has chapter tactics and it is applied in the same way.

However, adding them all to the core rulebook would further increase the amount of unique characters and special chapter specific options. Including Helfrost, Fenrisian Greataxe/Shield, Frost Weapons, Relics, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Space Wolf psychic abilities. And that's only naming the Space Wolves specific options. Wouldn't this make the codex too large, with "If you're a Space Wolf you can also take the following:" options under most units?

Perhaps if the Space Wolves were part of the Space Marines book as Chapter Tactics, along with a HQ or two, and the rest of the options released in a supplemental book? It's either that or removing all of their frost weaponry/relics/psychic abilities/fluffy things.

Ditch all codex, and go back to less main faction like: SM, CSM, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyrannid, Orks, Nercons, Imperial Guard, Tau, Daemons.

10 factions. That could be easier to keep track, and maybe even BALANCE!!!

Colehkxix wrote:
However, adding them all to the core rulebook would further increase the amount of unique characters and special chapter specific options. Including Helfrost, Fenrisian Greataxe/Shield, Frost Weapons, Relics, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Space Wolf psychic abilities. And that's only naming the Space Wolves specific options. Wouldn't this make the codex too large, with "If you're a Space Wolf you can also take the following:" options under most units?

You don't need to keep all of those options. Virtually all of them can be removed with no loss of fluff, and most of the remaining ones are stupid ideas that should be removed. It's unfortunate that GW has spent the past few years piling on tons of special snowflake rules to justify charging you $50 for a separate codex, but it's terrible design and it needs to stop.

Might as well get rid of BA. Back to being arguably the worst list in the game. I think I could win more with Orks or DE.

Wonderwolf wrote:Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum

Get your Bolt Action out of my Sci-Fi.

you mean, one of the few factions that uses sci-fi-ish directed energy weapons (as opposed to traditional chemical burning kinetic energy weapons) as its basic kit, and includes evolutionary divergent species as part of its forces?

Imperial Guard as only as Bolt-Action-ey as one wants them to be.There's Star-Wars-ey Tallarn Mukaali riders, Steampunk Vostroyans, Hard Sci-Fi-ish Elysians, etc.

Lets also not forget that 40k's Imperial Guard is much, much older than Bolt Action as a game is

sing your life wrote:
The quality of players of a faction in a small part of a single country has has no effect on the quality of said faction overall

That's entirely true. I just really have never found a pleasant BA opponent for some reason, it was more of a tongue in cheek thing really.

I had never even HEARD of "Bolt Action" as a wargame until now, so... I have to concur with Vaktathi.

Tyranids. No characterization, no background, no personality, and no meaningful story impact. They aren't an army, they're a force of nature. As such, they are boring to play with and against.

Tyranids can easily be removed without fething up the history of the Galaxy and causing a huge rewrite.

What about the poor players who like Tyranids?

Perhaps they should ADD an army. Make Renegade Guard a main 40k army, or add it as an option to the normal IG codex.

Renegade Guard doesn't need its own book.

Take IG. Make it BB with CSM and Daemons. Move IG Psykers into SC and Warlord slots. Done.

Delete: Tau. This isn't Star Trek.
Devote money to: Sisters of Battle.

Martel732 wrote:
Might as well get rid of BA. Back to being arguably the worst list in the game. I think I could win more with Orks or DE.

But what would the poor admech/skitarii/other imperium tourney armies do without our rent-6-pods detachment?!

Tau. They're a minor race on the eastern fringe.
And their bipedal methul bawkses are somehow MC's.

Sent the money to CSM, get them something on par with, y'know, ANYTHING.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Blood Angels probably just because I think just about every game I've ever played against them, over four or five editions and probably half a dozen cities, was with an unpleasant TFG.

Are you suggesting this is more than a coincidence? If so, why/how?

Squats... Oh wait....

Realistically, I'd be fine seeing the Imperial Knights go. They really have no business outside of apocalypse. But I feel that way about all SH and GC. I also agree with most people here that the space marine and chaos books should be consolidated into big faction books similar to the 2nd edition Empire of Man and Forces of Chaos books. Space marines don't change much between the factions except for a few tactics and Chaos already allies with itself in every way to be playable. Besides the money, there is no reason for there to be so many books.

I would like to see SoB get some love and an affordable (compared to what they cost now) line of plastic models. Mostly because they're a flavorful faction and I would like to start a sisters army. What can I say? I like fanatics.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Might as well get rid of BA. Back to being arguably the worst list in the game. I think I could win more with Orks or DE.

But what would the poor admech/skitarii/other imperium tourney armies do without our rent-6-pods detachment?!

Feth off and die.

Okay, so far we have declared that GW should combine all the space marine and chaos books into big faction books, they need to update the SoB so more people will play them, Tyranids have no large impact on the lore of the game, and that most Blood Angel players are unpleasant.


Cheers, C66

Space Wolves are what I'd scrap. Silly names/concepts and noisy design. The most recent release for them was laughable. I would put the money from that into SoB, followed closely by CSM.

 Psienesis wrote:
Renegade Guard doesn't need its own book.

Take IG. Make it BB with CSM and Daemons. Move IG Psykers into SC and Warlord slots. Done.

Delete: Tau. This isn't Star Trek.
Devote money to: Sisters of Battle.

What about giving guardsmen the option to have laspistols and chainswords? I want some melee guard.

I suppose Renegade Psyker is fulfilled by the Primaris Psyker role... add some Chaosy options and we're good!

BladeSwinga wrote:
Space Wolves are what I'd scrap. Silly names/concepts and noisy design. The most recent release for them was laughable. I would put the money from that into SoB, followed closely by CSM.

Don't like how..... fluffy they are? : )

Martel732 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Might as well get rid of BA. Back to being arguably the worst list in the game. I think I could win more with Orks or DE.

But what would the poor admech/skitarii/other imperium tourney armies do without our rent-6-pods detachment?!

Feth off and die.

Evidence of BA players being TFG's.

That said, I too have only ever seen TFG BA players. Anyone got votes for non TFG BA players?

 Cobra66 wrote:
and that most Blood Angel players are unpleasant.

Martel732 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Might as well get rid of BA. Back to being arguably the worst list in the game. I think I could win more with Orks or DE.

/But what would the poor admech/skitarii/other imperium tourney armies do without our rent-6-pods detachment?!

Feth off and die.

Dude, chill!

On topic, I don't think I'd want any army killed off, even if they're unpopular and/or I hate them personally they have their fans who I wouldn't want to screw over.

Though I would be fine with "compressing" Marines, as long as those "compressed" kept all their special stuff and didn't lose anything. Black Templars showed it can be done.
It could definitely work with the Dark Angels and Blood Angels but not sure about Space Wolves and Grey Knights. They're more divergent.

As far as actually taking stuff away:
Maybe Khorne Daemonkin (and the other Daemonkin books if they pop up). People have wanted Chapter Tactics like stuff for the Legions/Warbands and that sounds pretty nifty and if I'm not mistaken Codex:Chaos Space Marines has Daemons in it. You could just give the X Daemonkin stuff to the appropriate Legions/Warbands as Chapter Tactics or something.
Militarum Tempestus could go, just sounds like a half-baked ripoff of AM/IG. Optionally stuff that stuff back in with the Imperial Guard.
Escalation might not be a Codex, but I'd like it to go too after some preparations. Just stuff Lords of War into the right Codexes and you're good to go, no need for another gimmicky book.

...Okay this is going to be a controversial one but since it's the one time I'd be killing off an actual unique side I'll spit it out.
Adeptus Mechanicus.
I will admit it's a personal grudge thing (since I've hated them ever since I first read about them, the stupid innovation-hating bastards) but not just that (as mentioned, that's not enough for me to want something gone), they sound like a really gimmicky and cash-grabby side, introduced when there were many sides needing an update (some still do). If taking out these twits would give room for love for the other stuff to be expanded/updated as needed, then so be it!

I honestly like Imperial Knights, I'm glad they exist and I want to eventually get some.

EDIT: I know a guy who plays Blood Angels and he seems fine. At least as much as anyone else I know who has interest in 40k (for the record an IG/CSM player, to a lesser degree his Space Wolves playing wife and I'm also best friends with a guy who wants to get Tyranids).

Talking to BT players, them getting shoved into the Codex was the worst thing to happen to the faction, and I certainly wouldn't wish that on the big three who have been around since the beginning of modern 40K. Instead of rolling Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels into the Ultramarines and Friends 'Dex, writers should just stop writing garbage. Which thankfully has never been a problem for the DA's, we just got shoddy rules up until now.

If I were remove a faction, it'd be Imperial Knights, Admech, Skitarii, etc. Shove them all into one giant Codex called Codex Admech. We don't need three stray sub factions that really don't need to have separate books when they're all related. And haven't had the tradition of getting their own Dex like the Big Four.

CrashGordon94 wrote:
[
Though I would be fine with "compressing" Marines, as long as those "compressed" kept all their special stuff and didn't lose anything. Black Templars showed it can be done.
It could definitely work with the Dark Angels and Blood Angels but not sure about Space Wolves and Grey Knights. They're more divergent.

I think if they'd just put caveats on gear selection it could stay all the same for the sub-factions.

IE,
Only formations using the Space Wolves Chapter Tactics may use items and units from the Space Wolves Units, Weapons and Gear list, etc.

Dataslates even?

Just it seems silly to have a release block filled with nothing but Marines, even if they're a different flavour. And now with the new Space Marine codex, BA and Wolves players are missing out on some of the stuff in that book.

@Wyzilla: Really?
Honestly all I heard was 1d4chan going "You guys are in the vanilla Marine 'dex but it's no big deal, you haven't lost anything.", was that wrong?
Only bad thing I heard was apparently the fluff getting nerfed recently (them being a bit cooler about Psykers is honestly fine by me but that writer taking away their huge numbers genuinely sucks), this is actually kind of relevant since I really like the Black Templars (perhaps even more than the Dark Angels fluff-wise) and they're the only vanilla Codex Marines I like and care about and would ever play. In fact, I do plan to get a BT army someday.

Regarding that combined Admech Codex: That doesn't sound bad. I'd feel sick to my stomach buying the AdMech Codex and maybe having to field AdMech units to get my Knight allies in play though... Maybe if they kept Knight-only Formations?

@OrkaMorka: Sounds very reasonable actually.
Still might not work for Grey Knights though.

Sisters of Battle.

Close to non-existant anyway...arf, who am I kidding. I just want to see Warhammer forums burst in flames.

Might as well squat Sisters. The appeal is blech and their play style isn't something that can't be encompassed by another army.

Remove: Necrons, this is a faction that can never really seem to properly find its identity. They used to be this somewhat lovecraftian force of pure, ancient and uninterpretable evil. That was interesting, and although they looked rather silly, they at least fit in the 40k universe and played a role. Now they hold basically no real place in the universe. For the universe threatening terror we have tyranids, and for the ancient technologically asvanced race we have both types of eldar. Maybe it's just me but necrons really don't seem to have a place in 40k, and I personally find their aesthetics to be quite silly and non-threatening.

Add: first combine the mechanicus stuff, that's simple. Then give the sisters their own new book, update kits and add in ecclesiarchy elements as well. The faith and fire of the ecclesiarchal forces would be a good counter to the cold and unfeeling logic of the mechanicum.

I want Squats out

Posted from Internet Explorer Browser.

 OrkaMorka wrote:
Dataslates even?

You mean warscrolls.

In the grim darkness of the near future, there will be four factions: Imperial, Chaos, Bad Xenos, and Less Bad Xenos.

Orks, devote money to make Krieg and Scion viable, no bias here, no no no no ­>.>

And Renegade Guard is made by FW

Eldar. Bright, shiny heroic elves leading the charge against darkness is the most child-friendly and stupid thing I've seen in a grim-dark setting. I'm embarrassed for those who play them.

Also, they've been gathering the worst of TFG, WAAC scrubs for 7 editions straight, so squatting them would get rid of the worst players who drag down the whole game.

Eldar are dicks to everyone who's not Eldar. Which basically puts them in the same moral position as the Imperium. Maybe slightly better in that they treat fellow Eldar slightly better... but then again, massively repressive culture...

They're hardly bright, shiny heroic elves. That's Lord of the Rings elves, not Eldar.

 Melissia wrote:
but then again, massively repressive culture...

Exactly right. Eldar are also completely callous when it comes to any race but their own, and by their own I mean not including Dark Eldar (who I believe are the majority of Eldar).

If I was gonna be getting rid of an army... I'd get rid of Tau. not because I dislike them but the Tau are this tiny empire in this small section of the galaxy. why do they get a codex but the Hrud or the countless other minor alien empires not?

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Might as well get rid of BA. Back to being arguably the worst list in the game. I think I could win more with Orks or DE.

But what would the poor admech/skitarii/other imperium tourney armies do without our rent-6-pods detachment?!

Feth off and die.

Evidence of BA players being TFG's.

That said, I too have only ever seen TFG BA players. Anyone got votes for non TFG BA players?

If you had our codices, you'd be TFG, too.

Sisters of Battle. Because people only play sisters for the sake of playing sisters.

Isn't htata GOOD thing?

 Melissia wrote:
Eldar are dicks to everyone who's not Eldar. Which basically puts them in the same moral position as the Imperium. Maybe slightly better in that they treat fellow Eldar slightly better... but then again, massively repressive culture...

They're hardly bright, shiny heroic elves. That's Lord of the Rings elves, not Eldar.

Nah. You read the Silmarillion, Noldor were donkey-caves close to the level of the 40k Eldar. While Feanor was not truly responsible for all the evil of the world, he only really succeeded in causing more problems than fixing any.

Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Might as well get rid of BA. Back to being arguably the worst list in the game. I think I could win more with Orks or DE.

But what would the poor admech/skitarii/other imperium tourney armies do without our rent-6-pods detachment?!

Feth off and die.

Evidence of BA players being TFG's.

That said, I too have only ever seen TFG BA players. Anyone got votes for non TFG BA players?

I know of one. He's retired from the hobby now, but by all accounts he was a fine player.

I for one agree with consolidating Marines into a single codex. Same with Admech/Skitaari/Knights, and Chaos forces. As for stripping, I would remove GK compeltely or just shove them into the Inquisition codex. Tau can go as well, as they're rather minor and don't bring much to the game fluff-wise. Being 'less evil' doesn't make you 'more good,' it just means you're evil but lack ambition. Also, while I'm in a purging mood, the boys in blue could use a reboot of flavor, and perhaps dropping just a couple of their named characters (5 really is excessive, especially considering some chapters don't have any). SpaceRome™ sounds much more interesting than the poster boys of the Imperium.

None. There are still more factions to add, like Eldar Exodites and AbHumans, not to mention the Adaptus Custodians, Arbites, and the other dozen or so Marine factions that play differently.

SJ

Militarum tempestus, unless gdub rolls the sisters into their codex their codex is devoid of value.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
None. There are still more factions to add, like Eldar Exodites and AbHumans, not to mention the Adaptus Custodians, Arbites, and the other dozen or so Marine factions that play differently.

SJ

A lot of these aren't really factions that would really be playable armies on their own.

The Custodes, at least post-heresy, only ever leave Terra for rare jaunts guarding the Black Ships, and aside from that stick to the Imperial Palace. The Arbites are a police force, a heavily armed one, but still a police force and not a general 40k battlefield force.

 Peregrine wrote:
Tyranids. Stupid fluff, ugly models. I'd kill them off even if I don't get to spend their resources elsewhere.

Other than that, I wouldn't get rid of any army. I'd certainly consolidate all of the marine factions into a single book (and probably remove some of their special snowflake units in the process) and demons would lose some of their units and go into a combined chaos book with demons + cultists + CSM. But that would be a reorganization, not a complete removal.

I love the Tyranid models and fluff :(

Anyway I would remove orks for having the possible most ridiculous and stupid ass fluff with ugly models and stupid looking vehicles.

Sister Of Battle, They are basically female space marine's which use more flamers ie Female Salamander's

[rant]When these threads have popped up in the past, I've advocated for the combination of Space Marine codices into two or three. With what has happened to the likes of Blood Angels and - to a lesser extent - Dark Angels, I increasingly think of it as a valid option.

However, the merging of the Space Marine codices are no longer at the top of that list. Now, it's Necrons. To me, they hardly fit the setting any longer especially with how far Ward took the fluff in the 5th edition codex. Looking back, I think it took a large bite out of the grimdarkness of the setting what with the likes of the Celestial Orrey and having a potential military the size of the population of the Imperium being only a couple of the offending elements. Also, the humanization of the Necrons leave them so... unalien, and the little quotes and monologues held within made them seem to much of a cartoon villain. Spare me the speeches, if I want a villain's monologue, I'll read or watch something that's actually well written like The Killing Joke or Hellsing's the Major's final strut and fret upon the stage. Spare me the sense of honor and/or pride, it makes me feel like I'm reading a textbook about European or Roman royalty back in middle school and feels just as boring and as life sapping as The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - okay, maybe not THAT life sapping.

It's gotten to the point that I no longer want to restart my Necron army after having lost it - and a CSM army but I am slowly rebuilding that - during a move across the country. Either merge the appropriate elements of the Oldcrons with the new, Squat the Necrons or pull a major retcon and overhaul so that the Necrons are - instead of an ancient menace - remnants of the Men of Iron regrouped and ready for Round 2 seeing now as the perfect time to strike to finish what they started.[/rant]

 Peregrine wrote:
Tyranids. Stupid fluff, ugly models. I'd kill them off even if I don't get to spend their resources elsewhere.

Other than that, I wouldn't get rid of any army. I'd certainly consolidate all of the marine factions into a single book (and probably remove some of their special snowflake units in the process) and demons would lose some of their units and go into a combined chaos book with demons + cultists + CSM. But that would be a reorganization, not a complete removal.

Oh good someone else hates the nid models. I wouldn't get rid of them though. I like the idea of the army. Just not the designs of the creatures.

I would just scoop out the SMs, all of them not just the sub fractions. There are just too many and I think the SoB fit the role just as well if not better. I whould throw the money at well everything, get some new models for the nids that aren't ugly, get some models for the SoB that are gold plated, then maybe give the guard more models. (The one place I wouldn't mind seeing sub fraction after sub fraction would be the guard.)

Honestly, I'd roll some of the books together like:

Chaos Space Marines + Chaos Daemons + Lost and the Damned + Renegade Guard + Daemonkin> Hordes of Chaos

Astra Militarium + Militarium Tempestus + Abhumans + Arbites + Officio Assassinitorum> Department Militarium

Craftworld Eldar + Harlequins (+ Dark Eldar?)> Eldar Host

Sisters of Battle + Inquisition + Grey Knights + Deathwatch> Ordo Majoris

Cult Mechanicus + Skitarii + Imperial Knights> Adeptus Mechanicus

Necrons, Orks, Tau and Tyranids would stay their own Codexes, though it would be nice to see Tau incorporate more auxiliaries and Orks bring back a little more Klan diversity, even if it's only in the form of formations.

Space Marines are the big ones. Space Wolves have so much different stuff, but it's not impossible to put it in the same book. Chapter Tactics would cover the SW/ BA/ DA special rules, but getting the Grey Hunters and such equipped as they currently are would be a bit of a tweak or just a separate entry. How big do we want that book to be?

I play Orks, vanilla Marines (Crimson Fists), Space Wolves and Chaos. It would be so simple for me to say "feth Tau, Dark Eldar and Necrons. I don't play 'em, I don't care about 'em!" but I know that a lot of people out there DO love and play those races. How is it fair for me to safeguard my personal favourites and advocate the abandonment of someone else's?

Personally don't like Eldar, given that they're effectively space elves and as good ol' Garithos said in WC3, "NEVER TRUST AN ELF!". But realistically I would scrap all the marine variants as others have said and just compile it into one super-mega codex. GW just copy-pastes the majority of the stats and wargear anyways since assault marines, devastators, tacs, and much of the rhino variants etc. are all effectively the same across the codices so the only space they would be taking up would be the specialist/codex specific units which honestly wouldn't take up that much space overall. It also keeps all of them in the loop rather than having to wait for a similar boost to various units across the editions (i.e. Dark Angel syndrome until recently and that now scouts got BS/WS4 back and dreads got 4 attacks base).

I'd like them to take the extra time on CSM. So far they have one of the most mishmash selection of units where many of the old models stick out like a sore thumb to the DV chosen and helbrute. They still don't even have a plastic havocs kit for goodness' sake and the SM just got a devastator kit update! CSM and all their cult units need updates, pretty much the whole range needs an overhaul nearing the level of Dark Eldar. Similarly, CSM dex is too confused to find out what it really wants to represent. It doesn't have the toys of a renegade chapter, it doesn't have much of the relics or traits of the traitor legions, its a really nasty in between that leaves no one satisfied. Most of all, it doesn't reflect on the independent nature of chaos properly, instead lazily porting over Warriors of Chaos rules in an attempt to transfer the badassness of chaos warriors when in 40K shooting rules supreme and it isn't helped when all of CSM CC lacks an efficient delivery system.

I dont think scrapping knights or SM factions is a good idea.

The whole reason for knights is to level the super heavy playing field. If you dont think SHs should be in 40k, thats another debate entirely.

DA especially would not get any justice being put inbthe SM codex. The chapter tactics rules would be 2 pages long just for them.

 Lord Corellia wrote:
Honestly, I'd roll some of the books together like:

Chaos Space Marines + Chaos Daemons + Lost and the Damned + Renegade Guard + Daemonkin> Hordes of Chaos

Astra Militarium + Militarium Tempestus + Abhumans + Arbites + Officio Assassinitorum> Department Militarium

Craftworld Eldar + Harlequins (+ Dark Eldar?)> Eldar Host

Sisters of Battle + Inquisition + Grey Knights + Deathwatch> Ordo Majoris

Cult Mechanicus + Skitarii + Imperial Knights> Adeptus Mechanicus

Necrons, Orks, Tau and Tyranids would stay their own Codexes, though it would be nice to see Tau incorporate more auxiliaries and Orks bring back a little more Klan diversity, even if it's only in the form of formations.

Space Marines are the big ones. Space Wolves have so much different stuff, but it's not impossible to put it in the same book. Chapter Tactics would cover the SW/ BA/ DA special rules, but getting the Grey Hunters and such equipped as they currently are would be a bit of a tweak or just a separate entry. How big do we want that book to be?

I play Orks, vanilla Marines (Crimson Fists), Space Wolves and Chaos. It would be so simple for me to say "feth Tau, Dark Eldar and Necrons. I don't play 'em, I don't care about 'em!" but I know that a lot of people out there DO love and play those races. How is it fair for me to safeguard my personal favourites and advocate the abandonment of someone else's?

And that's the problem. If we had this discussion 10 years ago (I'm sure we did...) it would be easy to remove all the stand alone chapters and put them into a single book. Especially with the advent of tactics and formations that we have now. The problem is GW has fleshed out the chapters so much it would be hard to do it all in a single book now. Not impossible mind you, but the special rules would get out of hand quick.

For example... a Dark Angels tactic that makes it so if you take a Green/Death/Raven wing formation, 1 unit of bikers and 1 unit of terminators are upgraded to knights. Or take a Blood Angels formation and 1 unit of assault marines become death company and your vanguard vets become priests. I mean it can be done... just very special rules heavy.

But like many, condensing all of the Marines into a single book is much preferred. I don't think we need to condense it quite as heavily as you want it though.

I do think its kind of ridiculous to have the Imperial Knights as their own army, they have what 5 models, I mean really?


Cheers, C66

I would remove CSM. The Chaos legions are all destroyed and splintered and the majority of CSM are recently turned renegades so it makes no sense for them to have Heresy era equipment like reaper autocannons. They should just be rolled into the SM codex and given Chapter Tactics: Chaos that removes ATSKNF and combat squads, allows them to purchase marks and randomly causes their weaponry to hit themselves in the face.

This would free up resources to do 11 separate Ultramarines codices - 1 for each of the 10 companies plus Codex: Marneus Calgar. The latter ties into the release of the board game Marneus Calgar: Fightin' Round the Eye which details Calgar's heroic 1-man crusade into the Eye of Terror aboard his faithful battlebarge Tuggerius. The box includes an exclusive plastic Marneus Calgar as well as the multipart CSM terminator lord and 3 of the snap-fit monopose CSM. Retail 125 USD. Fists of Macragge web bundle includes boardgame plus 4 boxes of tactical terminators and comes with a data slate that let's you yell "courage and honour!" and uppercut your opponent square in the groin otherwise the whole formation gets no-scatter deep strike, same-turn assault and all their attacks are Str D for the rest of the game.

 jokerkd wrote:


The whole reason for knights is to level the super heavy playing field.

How? Everyone except for Imperials (who already had the lion's share of SH options) doesn't get to BB with Knights. How did that `level the playing field`?

Remove Farsight Enclaves.

Replace them with Squats.

Also, instead of consolidating all Astartes books into one (which would be horrible, butcher subfactions, little fluff, and jack up the price), fold them into three books. Codex Adherent, Codex Deviant, and Non-Codex. Chapters such as the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, etc would go into Codex Adherent. Dark Angels, White Scars, Salamanders, etc would go into Codex Deviant. Finally Chapters like the Space Wolves and Black Templars would be put into Non-Codex.

Plus even more special rules can be added to give each of the three organizations and chapters within them a very unique feel, possibly even adding in mechanics to scratchbuild your own Custom Chapter instead of just copying the special rules of another chapter if we're wishlisting.

Let's face it though, GW are never going to make less books for us to buy. I know they've said they're done with things like the Champions of Fenris and Black Legion supplements, but I feel like they'll release a whole slew of them again if their profits take a hit. Books are cheap and easy; they have three decades' worth of art and fluff to regurgitate and they can use them to skew the stats and force people to buy whatever is suddenly good.

Tau, just don't get them.

 Manchu wrote:

 OrkaMorka wrote:
Dataslates even?

You mean warscrolls.

In the grim darkness of the near future, there will be four factions: Imperial, Chaos, Bad Xenos, and Less Bad Xenos.

This is heresy. There can be no such thing as a "less bad xenos". Please report to the nearest commissar or inquisitor.

Edit: oh, also I'd remove Tau. Space anime fan communists with a hardon for mechs? Ew. I know that they're a young race and all in the lore so maybe when they grow up they'll realize that the whole communist thing doesn't really work.

Edit 2: This forum has wordfilters?

 ionusx wrote:
Militarum tempestus, unless gdub rolls the sisters into their codex their codex is devoid of value.

+1

Admech. Thier contribution militarily to the IoM is negligible, outside of the Legio Titanicus. There "armys" only ever really defended the handful of Forge worlds.

Sisters need the love. Realistically I'd say the Ecclisiarchy as a whole should be represented. Kind of like they did for the AdMech ironically. The IoMs religion is a greater factor in their society & military.

 Red Marine wrote:
Admech. Thier contribution militarily to the IoM is negligible, outside of the Legio Titanicus. There "armys" only ever really defended the handful of Forge worlds.

Where do you think that most of the weapons and other equipment come from? I'd say completely the opposite, their contriubution is almost as significant as the guard's and the navy's. I'd be completely fine with Admech never having been playable or right now vanishing overnight but in the fluff, those handful of forge worlds are pretty damn important. Sticks and stones just aren't quite enough to defend a galaxy-spanning empire.

 Red Marine wrote:
Admech. Thier contribution militarily to the IoM is negligible, outside of the Legio Titanicus. There "armys" only ever really defended the handful of Forge worlds.

Sisters need the love. Realistically I'd say the Ecclisiarchy as a whole should be represented. Kind of like they did for the AdMech ironically. The IoMs religion is a greater factor in their society & military.

Uh, dude?

If we're going by those standards, then SM and SB should be removed in favor of Admech, because the Admech fights in a whole hell of a lot more battles than Space Marines and Sisters.

If GW join all SM dexes to one book, the price would be € 150 ...

 Naberiel wrote:
If GW join all SM dexes to one book, the price would be € 150 ...

There's absolutely no reason this would need to be true. Other gaming companies put out 300+page hardcover, full color books all the time for $40-60. Battlefront, FFG, Corvus Belli, etc. all manage it.

Get rid of Sisters of Battle. The Inquisition needs someone to go after psykers? Give them a Marine faction, like how Ordo Xenos has the Deathwatch and the Ordo Malleus has the Grey Knights.

Never liked their models, and every SoB player I've played against has been TFG.

A new Marine faction would sell more than SoB plastics because people could use them to convert their other Marines. Double win for GW and win for hobbyists who like to convert.

Plus, who says a combined marine book would need to be 300+ pages?

Flip through any of the latest codices and count up the number of pages wasted on the new army list format at the back (one unit per page with picture compared to old 3-4 units per page), the amount of pages dedicated to pictures of models, and the over done, poorly done colour scheme spreads that look like MS paint drawings.

Cut/reduce all that fat and all the rules fit in fine. The fluff wouldn't be that big of a deal, as much of it is redundant anyways (going over basic astartes stuff, explaining the role of common marine units, so on), plus many units are literally identical.

Stop thinking of just gluing the marine books together, and think about how you could cut down on useless gak in the books and have everything loyalist marine in a single book for the same cost.

Same goes for the two ad mech books. Just make them one. Stupid.

Echoing what others have said, I'd do a merging of several books which don't need to be individual factions. Chaos and the Imperium would both get condensed.

If I had to pick a faction to get squatted, Tau.

...None? Seriously, one of things I like 40k is that's it's such a kitchen sink of sci-fi tropes. It's the plurality of 40k that makes it so appealing to me. I also personally don't feel entitled enough to claim that GW should cater entirely to my tastes and remove something that I personally don't like to the detriment of people who do like it.

 Blacksails wrote:
Plus, who says a combined marine book would need to be 300+ pages?

Flip through any of the latest codices and count up the number of pages wasted on the new army list format at the back (one unit per page with picture compared to old 3-4 units per page), the amount of pages dedicated to pictures of models, and the over done, poorly done colour scheme spreads that look like MS paint drawings.

Cut/reduce all that fat and all the rules fit in fine. The fluff wouldn't be that big of a deal, as much of it is redundant anyways (going over basic astartes stuff, explaining the role of common marine units, so on), plus many units are literally identical.

Stop thinking of just gluing the marine books together, and think about how you could cut down on useless gak in the books and have everything loyalist marine in a single book for the same cost.

Same goes for the two ad mech books. Just make them one. Stupid.

Are you serious? Cut out all the stuff that actually separates them all, that makes them unique? Why would anyone want to play them at that point anymore? Besides what would you put in the book? Ultramarine stuff? Blood Angel? Space Wolf? Dark Angel? Grey Knights? Yeah thats gonna be great when all the rest of the armies look at a book they would be paying $80+ for that has nothing but a few pages of rules for their models, you can guarantee no one will move on from their current codex if something like that was ever introduced. It is an utterly inane idea that you should be ashamed of even thinking of, its absolutely foolish and would be a terrible move for GW in terms of not only the game but their income.

"Makes them unique" is a judgment call. They're still just marines with a different paintjob to many.

GW does have a website that is woefully underutilized. Putting faction stories and background information would certainly ease some of your concerns.

Blood Angels, so their players can stop bitching about how Eldar can take scatterbikes while I don't even have any and they're flying an invisible assault termie deathstar across the board at the speed of a bike.

 Lord Corellia wrote:
Honestly, I'd roll some of the books together like:

Chaos Space Marines + Chaos Daemons + Lost and the Damned + Renegade Guard + Daemonkin> Hordes of Chaos

Astra Militarium + Militarium Tempestus + Abhumans + Arbites + Officio Assassinitorum> Department Militarium

Craftworld Eldar + Harlequins (+ Dark Eldar?)> Eldar Host

Sisters of Battle + Inquisition + Grey Knights + Deathwatch> Ordo Majoris

Cult Mechanicus + Skitarii + Imperial Knights> Adeptus Mechanicus

Necrons, Orks, Tau and Tyranids would stay their own Codexes, though it would be nice to see Tau incorporate more auxiliaries and Orks bring back a little more Klan diversity, even if it's only in the form of formations.

Space Marines are the big ones. Space Wolves have so much different stuff, but it's not impossible to put it in the same book. Chapter Tactics would cover the SW/ BA/ DA special rules, but getting the Grey Hunters and such equipped as they currently are would be a bit of a tweak or just a separate entry. How big do we want that book to be?

More or less my opinion as well. I don't want to see armies ditched, but some of them have no job being stand-alone codexes.

General Hobbs wrote:


Get rid of Sisters of Battle. The Inquisition needs someone to go after psykers? Give them a Marine faction, like how Ordo Xenos has the Deathwatch and the Ordo Malleus has the Grey Knights.

Never liked their models, and every SoB player I've played against has been TFG.

A new Marine faction would sell more than SoB plastics because people could use them to convert their other Marines. Double win for GW and win for hobbyists who like to convert.

Wow, that's the most bitter I've ever heard someone be about the Sisters.

Besides, the Sisters are not lackeys of the Inquisition in the first place.

In any case, more Marines? Really? Marines are so... boring though. They're only worthwhile as a foil to show how badass all the people who live in 40k without being a genetic monster are.

 n0t_u wrote:
Blood Angels, so their players can stop bitching about how Eldar can take scatterbikes while I don't even have any and they're flying an invisible assault termie deathstar across the board at the speed of a bike.

LOL BA can't even get invisibility. And assault terminators are pretty bad.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
In any case, more Marines? Really? Marines are so... boring though. They're only worthwhile as a foil to show how badass all the people who live in 40k without being a genetic monster are.

What the feth did you just fething say about me, you worthless heretic? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Space Marines, and I've led an incomprehensible number of secret raids against the forces of chaos, and I have over 30 million confirmed purgings. I am trained in armored warfare and I'm the top Ultramarine in all the Space Marine Chapters. You are nothing to me but just another heretic. I will wipe you the feth out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before in this universe, mark my fething words.
You think you can get away with saying that gak to me over the Warp? Think again, fether. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the galaxy and your powers are being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fething dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bolter.
Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Adeptus Mechanicus and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the planet, you little gak. If only you could have known what holy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fething tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you Emperor-damned idiot.

DE for me, never really got into them on any level, fluff wise aesthetically, tactic wise. Dont see what they add to 40k in the game or Universe tbh.
Plus the fluff in the 5th ed codex really jarred with me.

The Assassins, Imperial Knights, Inquisition and the Ad Mech. I would roll them together into a book called the Codex: Forces of the Imperium or something.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Assassins, Imperial Knights, Inquisition and the Ad Mech. I would roll them together into a book called the Codex: Forces of the Imperium or something.

Except Imperial Knights. Just get rid of them.

People really do seem to like imperial knights though

 Cobra66 wrote:
People really do seem to like imperial knights though

Not from a gameplay perspective.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Cobra66 wrote:
People really do seem to like imperial knights though

Not from a gameplay perspective.

+1

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
Admech. Thier contribution militarily to the IoM is negligible, outside of the Legio Titanicus. There "armys" only ever really defended the handful of Forge worlds.

Where do you think that most of the weapons and other equipment come from? I'd say completely the opposite, their contriubution is almost as significant as the guard's and the navy's. I'd be completely fine with Admech never having been playable or right now vanishing overnight but in the fluff, those handful of forge worlds are pretty damn important. Sticks and stones just aren't quite enough to defend a galaxy-spanning empire.

That's what he means. The AdMech and their armies are primarily found on Forge Worlds. making weapons for the other Imperial armies. Weapons that the AdMech does not personally hand-deliver to individual soldiers in the field. If it were not for the Guard, the AdMech wouldn't exist, as they have no customers for the things they make.

The AdMech army is, basically, a good idea for a specific campaign setting, but stupid almost anywhere else.

 jasper76 wrote:
Ditch Imperial Knights, and spend the resources on getting CSM up-to-speed rules-wise and models-wise.

I play CSM and I do not agree because GW has been trying to help chaos with so many failed supplements such as Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter, Khorne Daemonkin. It took Forge world to print the badly needed IA13.

Hell to the no. Get rid of imperial Knight faction and just throw them in the admech books

 Filch wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Ditch Imperial Knights, and spend the resources on getting CSM up-to-speed rules-wise and models-wise.

I play CSM and I do not agree because GW has been trying to help chaos with so many failed supplements such as Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter, Khorne Daemonkin. It took Forge world to print the badly needed IA13.

Yeah, all the core GW produced CSM stuff has been really lame. They seem to be willfully going out of their way to produce stuff that nobody was really looking for, and to actively avoid making Legion stuff that would be a license to print money.

A Black Legion supplement? Really? The entire base book is already built on the concept of the Black Legion.

Crimson Slaughter? A new minor renegade faction nobody cared about.

Khorne Daemonkin? A little more interesting than the other two, but a lot of what it offers could be accomplished through the allies rules already, and they'd have generated a lot more excitement with a World Eaters supplement.

I'll give you two.

1. Grey Knights: They are the King of the TFG's armies. They aren't supposed to be numerous enough to have a major presence in the universe. Originally they were just there to stop a daemonic incursion and go home, and even then a squad was a RARE sight. Only an Inquisitor could bring a series number to bare. And after what they did to Armageddon, the combined survivors of Space Wolves, Blood Angels and IG should of turned their cowardly souls to ash. And that's the biggest kicker, they used to be a shadowy anti daemon strike force that hit, got the job done and left. Now they are shiny SUPER DUPER Space Marines. Ten times cheesier and stupid then ANYTHING the Wolves have ever got.

2. Necrons: My hatred for their level of unbeatably on the tabletop has been documented, but they also really have no personality or character, even with the 'newcron' update that makes them even remotely interesting.

Replace these two with:
1. Sisters of Battle: The army is too expensive to collect right now, with most of their stuff being metal and they should of got a true release before we got Not really Ad Mech, and then Ad Mech armies. Plus the 40K universe is a massive sausage fest, and modeling and painting ladies is just more fun then marine #258.

2. Hrud/Space Skaven: This would get all my monies day one. It seriously needs to happen. I want my rats in space.

Roll Imperial Knights, Admech, and skitarii into one book.
Roll Grey Knights, inquisition and assassins into one book.
Roll Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels into one book.
Roll Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins into one book.
Roll Chaos Marines, Lost & Damned, and Chaos into one book.
Keep C:SM. (its already pretty full)
Roll Astra Militarum, Solar Auxillia, Death Korps, etc.+ Sisters of Battle into one book.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I'll give you two.

1. Grey Knights: They are the King of the TFG's armies. They aren't supposed to be numerous enough to have a major presence in the universe. Originally they were just there to stop a daemonic incursion and go home, and even then a squad was a RARE sight. Only an Inquisitor could bring a series number to bare. And after what they did to Armageddon, the combined survivors of Space Wolves, Blood Angels and IG should of turned their cowardly souls to ash. And that's the biggest kicker, they used to be a shadowy anti daemon strike force that hit, got the job done and left. Now they are shiny SUPER DUPER Space Marines. Ten times cheesier and stupid then ANYTHING the Wolves have ever got.

2. Necrons: My hatred for their level of unbeatably on the tabletop has been documented, but they also really have no personality or character, even with the 'newcron' update that makes them even remotely interesting.

Replace these two with:
1. Sisters of Battle: The army is too expensive to collect right now, with most of their stuff being metal and they should of got a true release before we got Not really Ad Mech, and then Ad Mech armies. Plus the 40K universe is a massive sausage fest, and modeling and painting ladies is just more fun then marine #258.

2. Hrud/Space Skaven: This would get all my monies day one. It seriously needs to happen. I want my rats in space.

Hrud aren't skaven. They're entropic apathetic interdimensional beings that brutally murder anything that disturbs them. They can't be an army (and would be both horrible and horribly boring at that) as they simply aren't organized at all or have any unit variation. They'd be worse than the Nids- there would only be one unit.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I'll give you two.

1. Grey Knights: They are the King of the TFG's armies. They aren't supposed to be numerous enough to have a major presence in the universe. Originally they were just there to stop a daemonic incursion and go home, and even then a squad was a RARE sight. Only an Inquisitor could bring a series number to bare. And after what they did to Armageddon, the combined survivors of Space Wolves, Blood Angels and IG should of turned their cowardly souls to ash. And that's the biggest kicker, they used to be a shadowy anti daemon strike force that hit, got the job done and left. Now they are shiny SUPER DUPER Space Marines. Ten times cheesier and stupid then ANYTHING the Wolves have ever got.

2. Necrons: My hatred for their level of unbeatably on the tabletop has been documented, but they also really have no personality or character, even with the 'newcron' update that makes them even remotely interesting.

Replace these two with:
1. Sisters of Battle: The army is too expensive to collect right now, with most of their stuff being metal and they should of got a true release before we got Not really Ad Mech, and then Ad Mech armies. Plus the 40K universe is a massive sausage fest, and modeling and painting ladies is just more fun then marine #258.

2. Hrud/Space Skaven: This would get all my monies day one. It seriously needs to happen. I want my rats in space.

Hrud aren't skaven. They're entropic apathetic interdimensional beings that brutally murder anything that disturbs them. They can't be an army (and would be both horrible and horribly boring at that) as they simply aren't organized at all or have any unit variation. They'd be worse than the Nids- there would only be one unit.

But I could see Tau manipulating them into service. Mind control ftw?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I'll give you two.

1. Grey Knights: They are the King of the TFG's armies. They aren't supposed to be numerous enough to have a major presence in the universe. Originally they were just there to stop a daemonic incursion and go home, and even then a squad was a RARE sight. Only an Inquisitor could bring a series number to bare. And after what they did to Armageddon, the combined survivors of Space Wolves, Blood Angels and IG should of turned their cowardly souls to ash. And that's the biggest kicker, they used to be a shadowy anti daemon strike force that hit, got the job done and left. Now they are shiny SUPER DUPER Space Marines. Ten times cheesier and stupid then ANYTHING the Wolves have ever got.

2. Necrons: My hatred for their level of unbeatably on the tabletop has been documented, but they also really have no personality or character, even with the 'newcron' update that makes them even remotely interesting.

Replace these two with:
1. Sisters of Battle: The army is too expensive to collect right now, with most of their stuff being metal and they should of got a true release before we got Not really Ad Mech, and then Ad Mech armies. Plus the 40K universe is a massive sausage fest, and modeling and painting ladies is just more fun then marine #258.

2. Hrud/Space Skaven: This would get all my monies day one. It seriously needs to happen. I want my rats in space.

Hrud aren't skaven. They're entropic apathetic interdimensional beings that brutally murder anything that disturbs them. They can't be an army (and would be both horrible and horribly boring at that) as they simply aren't organized at all or have any unit variation. They'd be worse than the Nids- there would only be one unit.

But I could see Tau manipulating them into service. Mind control ftw?

Wat

Hrud are world destroying monsters that can annihilate just about anything that isn't a Daemon. Tau would just get destroyed if Hrud were pissed off enough to go on a world destroying spree.

This is GW's IP man. If they decided to make it happen then they could add Hrud in to the Tau codex if they wanted to. Its not like fluff doens't get re-written everyday.

Besides I don't think that Hrud get "pissed off" they mostly just... migrate.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
This is GW's IP man. If they decided to make it happen then they could add Hrud in to the Tau codex if they wanted to. Its not like fluff doens't get re-written everyday.

Besides I don't think that Hrud get "pissed off" they mostly just... migrate.

And GW won't make it happen, ever, as they are too small a faction and wouldn't generate much in the way of money.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
This is GW's IP man. If they decided to make it happen then they could add Hrud in to the Tau codex if they wanted to. Its not like fluff doens't get re-written everyday.

Besides I don't think that Hrud get "pissed off" they mostly just... migrate.

And by migrating, they obliterate the planet they're leaving. :p

They've been adding in a lot of small factions lately like Inquisitors, and Harlequins. So why not add in Hrud??

Because 1 Hrud would be equivalent to a pre-nerf Transcendent C'tan in terms of firepower.

 Cobra66 wrote:
They've been adding in a lot of small factions lately like Inquisitors, and Harlequins. So why not add in Hrud??

Inquisitors and Harlequins have been major parts of the TT for a while, one of which even used to have its own game. Hrud have not. In fact Hrud have never been a part of the TT.

Hrud are also basically an army of MCs. That's it. They don't have "small Hrud" in the way Tyranids build armies around a couple big bugs surrounded by swarms of small ones.

Worse? Individual Hrud aren't really that big. So you have something that has, basically, an always-on death field with strange-ass alien biology that gives them what is basically IWND that can camp behind cover or teleport around the field and inflict entropic decay on everything within like 12" of a Hrud model.

Grey Knights: They are the King of the TFG's armies. They aren't supposed to be numerous enough to have a major presence in the universe. Originally they were just there to stop a daemonic incursion and go home, and even then a squad was a RARE sight. Only an Inquisitor could bring a series number to bare. And after what they did to Armageddon, the combined survivors of Space Wolves, Blood Angels and IG should of turned their cowardly souls to ash. And that's the biggest kicker, they used to be a shadowy anti daemon strike force that hit, got the job done and left. Now they are shiny SUPER DUPER Space Marines. Ten times cheesier and stupid then ANYTHING the Wolves have ever got.

What happened at Armageddon was the only appropriate response to the situation. What the Space Wolves did was make a bad situation worse. Because they are stupid.

 Psienesis wrote:
Hrud are also basically an army of MCs. That's it. They don't have "small Hrud" in the way Tyranids build armies around a couple big bugs surrounded by swarms of small ones.

Worse? Individual Hrud aren't really that big. So you have something that has, basically, an always-on death field with strange-ass alien biology that gives them what is basically IWND that can camp behind cover or teleport around the field and inflict entropic decay on everything within like 12" of a Hrud model.

Grey Knights: They are the King of the TFG's armies. They aren't supposed to be numerous enough to have a major presence in the universe. Originally they were just there to stop a daemonic incursion and go home, and even then a squad was a RARE sight. Only an Inquisitor could bring a series number to bare. And after what they did to Armageddon, the combined survivors of Space Wolves, Blood Angels and IG should of turned their cowardly souls to ash. And that's the biggest kicker, they used to be a shadowy anti daemon strike force that hit, got the job done and left. Now they are shiny SUPER DUPER Space Marines. Ten times cheesier and stupid then ANYTHING the Wolves have ever got.

What happened at Armageddon was the only appropriate response to the situation. What the Space Wolves did was make a bad situation worse. Because they are stupid.

Considering most people don't consider genocide against your own fellow comrades sensible because an inquisitor said "just to be safe go ahead and kill them all". Especially after the normal methods of brainwashing were already complete
Oh and then they opened fire on the space wolves at a peace-negotiation. And what was it that the space wolves were doing to provoke the inquisiton's wrath? Soaking fire for friendly guard regiment ships.
The space wolf stupidity started AFTER the fake negotiation.

Altruism is not a bad thing even though 40k seems to try and make everyone think it is.
But judging by your signature your probably just going to argue with me so I don't even know I bother.

lollie123 wrote:


Are you serious? Cut out all the stuff that actually separates them all, that makes them unique? Why would anyone want to play them at that point anymore?

Point out in my quote where I said I'd cut anything. Point it out and you have a valid point. Until then, you're putting words in my mouth.

Try again.

Besides what would you put in the book? Ultramarine stuff? Blood Angel? Space Wolf? Dark Angel? Grey Knights?

All except GK, which belongs in a better Inq book.

Yeah thats gonna be great when all the rest of the armies look at a book they would be paying $80+ for that has nothing but a few pages of rules for their models, you can guarantee no one will move on from their current codex if something like that was ever introduced.

Again, if you bothered reading what I posted, you'd understand that the book wouldn't be that much money (assuming GW would follow reasonable business practices, but that's pretty iffy these days), or if were to cost more, it'd be by a pretty minimal amount considering the current cost anyways, plus you'd get access to literally every single loyalist marine unit, which greatly benefits the myriad of DIY chapter players. I don't think I'll ever understand this mindset, you'd get so much extra value compared to what you'd have to pay now for all that.

It is an utterly inane idea that you should be ashamed of even thinking of, its absolutely foolish and would be a terrible move for GW in terms of not only the game but their income.

Well of course it'd be bad for their income, so they'd never do it. But this isn't about what GW would do, its about what I'd do/want. So, what effects it would have on GW as a business is pretty irrelevant to this discussion.

As for your first part, lol. Seriously? I should be ashamed? *EDIT* I see your age in your profile. I'm honestly surprised you'd state I should be ashamed over an idea about a fething game. Seriously man, get a grip.

No, I'm not ashamed, no, its not inane. Defend your arguments instead of calling mine names.

You could combine all chapters will losing nothing to very little, open more options to all marine players and especially DIY chapters, cut out unnecessary redundancy in stating across three books what role a tactical marine has, have all marine fluff in a single source, would be cheaper for codex collectors, offer more value for marine players who own even one faction, and be far cheaper for those who own more than one, stop the power creep nonsense between nearly identical armies, and reduce total time spent on codex development for other factions to receive more love.

The only theoretical downsides would be the loss of some snowflake rules or minor characters. Depends on who would write it and how. Personally, I'd cut some, but I could probably create something that didn't need to. There might be some fluff loss too, but I don't think people would exactly miss the likes of Necron brofisting or murderfang murderfang murderfang. Opinions may vary, but I find there's a lot of really gakky marine fluff that wouldn't be missed.

That's about it.

If you're so worried about your army losing its unique appeal due to a handful of special rules or wargear items or exclusive access to a certain pattern of vehicle, I'd suggest you're looking at it wrong. Your army will be more unique based how you choose to field it, paint it, convert it, and fluff it out. The rules are there to support it, but my Mordian Iron Guard isn't less unique or less Mordian because I don't have Captain Mordian McMordian Stern DrillFace Sr barking orders in my army.

Regardless, I'm still laughing that you'd even say I should be ashamed for an idea around a book for a wargame. You stay classy.

I wouldn't get rid of any. All of the factions bring something unique to the table from both a gameplay and lore perspective.

If it were up to me, I would even give Black Templars their own codex again. Besides, GW will probably be expanding the number of factions in the game to keep their release schedule up.

I feel like we've gotten a bit off topic...

On a side note though I only recently started playing 40k (Maybe 4 years ago) and I do miss the days when there was only about 15 armies, all of which had at least over 10 models.



Cheers, C66

kburn wrote:
Also, they've been gathering the worst of TFG, WAAC scrubs for 7 editions straight, so squatting them would get rid of the worst players who drag down the whole game.

No it wouldn't. Those players would simply field something else instead.


I would scrap Grey Knights and Imperial Knights. Maybe even all the AdMech stuff, at the very least they get rolled into one book. Scrap the Tempestus thing, put an elite choice in the Imperial Guard book called "Storm Troopers". The time/money/resources would go to a Sisters of Battle plastic range, additional Guard regiments (supposedly the most numerous and varied Imperial military force in the galaxy) and doing CSM justice.

Anfauglir, thats the whole point of the pointlessness of the Scion book: Scions are in the Guard book!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Anfauglir, thats the whole point of the pointlessness of the Scion book: Scions are in the Guard book!

While personally I always wanted to do an army of stormtroopers, it's something that should have just been made possible within the IG book.

Worst of all though, was the awful harry-potter-torture-porn-esque fluff revamp they did of the Schola background

Colehkxix wrote:
All of the Space Marine subfactions. They need to be combined with the Space Marine codex. I've not read very much about Blood or Dark Angels, but I understand that each faction, including Space Wolves, clearly has chapter tactics and it is applied in the same way.

However, adding them all to the core rulebook would further increase the amount of unique characters and special chapter specific options. Including Helfrost, Fenrisian Greataxe/Shield, Frost Weapons, Relics, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Space Wolf psychic abilities. And that's only naming the Space Wolves specific options. Wouldn't this make the codex too large, with "If you're a Space Wolf you can also take the following:" options under most units?

Perhaps if the Space Wolves were part of the Space Marines book as Chapter Tactics, along with a HQ or two, and the rest of the options released in a supplemental book? It's either that or removing all of their frost weaponry/relics/psychic abilities/fluffy things.

This could very easily be pulled off.

FW Horus Heresy Astartes armies all follow the same basic template but with variations in Legion tactics and wargear.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Anfauglir, thats the whole point of the pointlessness of the Scion book: Scions are in the Guard book!

While personally I always wanted to do an army of stormtroopers, it's something that should have just been made possible within the IG book.

Worst of all though, was the awful harry-potter-torture-porn-esque fluff revamp they did of the Schola background

And then there's that beautiful Taurox/Prime model, which isn't in any way an aesthetic abomination... nope.

 Anfauglir wrote:
And then there's that beautiful Taurox/Prime model, which isn't in any way an aesthetic abomination... nope.

You mean the one they looted from Orks?

The AM sucked so bad. :( I feel so sorry for my friend who picked it as his first army. He even hates the Taurox with a passion for being the ugliest most impractical thing around.

I noticed that a lot of people seem to want the money to go to sisters of battle, but do a lot of people even play SoB?

I'd pick them as one of my top three armies, after IG and Skiitari. Like to see them get more support, even some new models. And yeah IG got hit, and aren't that good right now, GW should make all FW stuff legal in the next codex.

 Cobra66 wrote:
I noticed that a lot of people seem to want the money to go to sisters of battle, but do a lot of people even play SoB?

Personally I think its a cruel cycle:

SoB get no money because they have ugly and outdated models but SoB have ugly and outdated models because they get no money.

I have actually 2 (out of 15) people who play SoB at my FLGS and here at DakkaDakka people are very militant about their SoB

 Cobra66 wrote:
I noticed that a lot of people seem to want the money to go to sisters of battle, but do a lot of people even play SoB?

Probably a lot of them don't because they're weak and ignored by GW.

I can only speak for myself but I'd totally play Sisters if they had good plastic models and a solid Codex.

 saithor wrote:
I'd pick them as one of my top three armies, after IG and Skiitari. Like to see them get more support, even some new models. And yeah IG got hit, and aren't that good right now, GW should make all FW stuff legal in the next codex.

Drop the points cost of a Baneblade by 50 or 75 ish points, and let us fire ordnance and sponsons at full BS, and we'd be back in the game

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Cobra66 wrote:
I noticed that a lot of people seem to want the money to go to sisters of battle, but do a lot of people even play SoB?

Probably a lot of them don't because they're weak and ignored by GW.

I can only speak for myself but I'd totally play Sisters if they had good plastic models and a solid Codex.

Pretty much how a great number of people feel.

Yeah, which is actually a good reason to update them - They might actually get a good number of sales out of it!

I liked Sisters back when they were actually available in stores. I always looked through them, but I knew the prices made it impossible for me to build a force of any meaningful size at the time.

 Melissia wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Cobra66 wrote:
I noticed that a lot of people seem to want the money to go to sisters of battle, but do a lot of people even play SoB?

Probably a lot of them don't because they're weak and ignored by GW.

I can only speak for myself but I'd totally play Sisters if they had good plastic models and a solid Codex.

Pretty much how a great number of people feel.

Aren't they the most expensive army as well? A box of Sister's cost $50+ dollars and your heavy weapons troops are up to $10 a pop.

 OrkaMorka wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Cobra66 wrote:
I noticed that a lot of people seem to want the money to go to sisters of battle, but do a lot of people even play SoB?

Probably a lot of them don't because they're weak and ignored by GW.

I can only speak for myself but I'd totally play Sisters if they had good plastic models and a solid Codex.

Pretty much how a great number of people feel.

Aren't they the most expensive army as well? A box of Sister's cost $50+ dollars and your heavy weapons troops are up to $10 a pop.

Even worse, a 10 model box is ~$80, and that's with a storm bolter as the squad special weapon...

If they were cheaper and had even the minimal rules support everyone else has, they'd probably be a whole lot more popular. Being metal, and largely forgotten in terms of rules, and direct order only, it's hard for someone to get into them. My Forgeworld DKoK army was cheaper than my small Sisters army.

They'd need some redesign before I'd want to play them, but then they are an ancient army by today's standards.

A Dark Eldar style update is what they need, but they won't get it since GW doesn't do that kind of updates anymore.

I think most people would pick up Sisters if they just had the plastic kits already, and a new codex. I don't even care if it's top tier, just SOMETHING already.

As far as an army I would want to get rid of, as much as I like the look of them, the Scions. They cost more than a marine for less T, I, worse armor, and the Hot Shot lasguns, like, does more need to be said about them? 18", S3, and AP3. Why am I paying more for these guys than my marines again? Also, they use the Taurox. Let us never speak of it again.

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
I think most people would pick up Sisters if they just had the plastic kits already, and a new codex. I don't even care if it's top tier, just SOMETHING already.

As far as an army I would want to get rid of, as much as I like the look of them, the Scions. They cost more than a marine for less T, I, worse armor, and the Hot Shot lasguns, like, does more need to be said about them? 18", S3, and AP3. Why am I paying more for these guys than my marines again? Also, they use the Taurox. Let us never speak of it again.

As long as you let us keep them in the IG codex. They may be expensive, but they're our deepstrikers!

 saithor wrote:

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
I think most people would pick up Sisters if they just had the plastic kits already, and a new codex. I don't even care if it's top tier, just SOMETHING already.

As far as an army I would want to get rid of, as much as I like the look of them, the Scions. They cost more than a marine for less T, I, worse armor, and the Hot Shot lasguns, like, does more need to be said about them? 18", S3, and AP3. Why am I paying more for these guys than my marines again? Also, they use the Taurox. Let us never speak of it again.

As long as you let us keep them in the IG codex. They may be expensive, but they're our deepstrikers!

I agree, they need a points drop, but still I want to like them. I have some squads of them because I think they look bloody awesome, but they don't need their own codex.

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
I think most people would pick up Sisters if they just had the plastic kits already, and a new codex

I VERY strongly doubt this.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
I think most people would pick up Sisters if they just had the plastic kits already, and a new codex

I VERY strongly doubt this.

Well ok, probably not MOST people but I bet they'd be popular. If I had the cash and/ or they weren't so expensive I'd start them up.

Since GW refuses to properly support and sell an affordable army of them, I'd say Sisters of Battle. squat them or do something with them. This ultra expensive limbo thing has got to end one way or another.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
I think most people would pick up Sisters if they just had the plastic kits already, and a new codex

I VERY strongly doubt this.

I should clarify, most people interested in Sisters

 Cobra66 wrote:
I noticed that a lot of people seem to want the money to go to sisters of battle, but do a lot of people even play SoB?

I don't 'play' them because of their $$$ cost. I've always loved their models and design, and always WANTED to play them. But if they ever had a proper release, with plastic kits, and updated stuff, I'd trade my Chaos and Space Marine armies and throw what cash I could gather up at getting a large army of them.

Wyzilla wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
2. Hrud/Space Skaven: This would get all my monies day one. It seriously needs to happen. I want my rats in space.

Hrud aren't skaven. They're entropic apathetic interdimensional beings that brutally murder anything that disturbs them. They can't be an army (and would be both horrible and horribly boring at that) as they simply aren't organized at all or have any unit variation. They'd be worse than the Nids- there would only be one unit.

Cobra66 wrote:I noticed that a lot of people seem to want the money to go to sisters of battle, but do a lot of people even play SoB?

Actually they used to be before a god awful retcon that seriously needs to be reretconned.

This is what a Hrud SHOULD be:


From the 40K wiki

The Hrud first appeared in a simple black-and-white illustration of "other dangerous aliens", along with early versions of a Kroot warrior, Necron, Tarellian Dog Soldier, and other alien forms in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook for the 3rd Edition. The Hrud may also have been intended to be the counterpart of the Skaven, a race of humanoid rat-men from Games Workshop's fantasy counterpart to Warhammer 40,000, Warhammer Fantasy. Both races have a similar unkempt, crouched appearance, scavenger culture, and both are depicted as being humanoid rodents; both utilise Warp-plasma-based technology, which appears archaic but is technologically superior to other, contemporary engineering -- the Hrud rifle is a "fusil" while the Skaven's preferred rifle is called a "jezail" (a long-barrelled musket). Finally, both the Hrud and the Skaven both seem to have similar social habits, being described as living in warrens or similar underground tunnel systems. However, unlike the Skaven, the Hrud are an aggressive but not malevolent race, and one of the few intelligent species of the galaxy the Eldar do not regard as little better than semi-evolved cave-people, perhaps because of their common origin as wards of the Old Ones.

So basically fluff so old and irrelevant that it's been outmoded by numerous editions? Xenology is so damn old at this point it may as well not exist considering barely anything it resembles 40K anymore. Much like with RT, the franchise moved on, and largely for the better.

 Wyzilla wrote:
So basically fluff so old and irrelevant that it's been outmoded by numerous editions? Xenology is so damn old at this point it may as well not exist considering barely anything it resembles 40K anymore.

That's not an argument. It's just an opinion.

Much like with RT, the franchise moved on, and largely for the better.

lol.

 Delicate Swarm wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
So basically fluff so old and irrelevant that it's been outmoded by numerous editions? Xenology is so damn old at this point it may as well not exist considering barely anything it resembles 40K anymore.

That's not an argument. It's just an opinion.

Much like with RT, the franchise moved on, and largely for the better.

lol.

It's no longer supported at all. It's been outmoded by numerous editions and may as well not even be a part of 40K anymore, just the same with Rogue Trader. While never officially retconned, they effectively have been in terms of similarity of fluff or support.

Fiction doesn't stop being relevant because it is old. Dune isn't supported anymore, so what?

 Delicate Swarm wrote:
Fiction doesn't stop being relevant because it is old. Dune isn't supported anymore, so what?

Fiction quickly becomes outmoded when it's part of a moving franchise with changing canon. Just as in Star Wars the books along with most other EU materials are irrelevant, long outdated 40K material is just as without value in regards to the modern incarnation of the franchise- even if 40K doesn't have a rigorous canon structure. Although my memory was failing me, I was thinking of the ancient 3rd edition "other xenos" page, confusing it with xenology. Xenology is largely somewhat relevant, although the material is suspect considering the writer was going insane in-universe and noted nonexistent things like Tau having toes.

I was thinking of this old pic.

That's my point, 40k doesn't have canon. This setting was pretty much solidified 20 years ago. Everything made since then is basically fan fiction. New fluff can be ignored just as easily as old fluff, and in many cases damn well should be.

Personally I would like to compress all the Imperium of man into 1 codex
All chaos (CSM,daemons,renegade guard) into 1 codex
Eldar into 1 dex

Only army to get rid of is imperial knights...they are more like lords of war/ superweapons not an army or faction

Invest money into balancing game rules, factions and giving each faction an equal chance of winning

I would get rid of space marines in their entirety. They're too much of a mary-sue option, special snowflakes that warrant the game revolve around them. I prefer the WH Fantasy scenario, where no-one stands out as the 'best' faction and everyone has something worth playing them for. Or at least, i did until they killed WH Fantasy.

The is currently 24 Factions / Codex's (not including supplements) as shown below:

Assassins
Inquisition
Grey Knights
Sisters of Battle

Imperial Guard
Storm Troopers

Skitarri
Cult Mechanicus
Imperial Knights

Space Marines
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Legion of the Damned

Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Daemons
Khorne Daemonkin

Eldar
Dark Eldar
Harlequins

Orks
Necrons
Tau Empire
Tyranids

The most i would Combine them into the following would be the 16 following Factions / Codex's as shown below:

Inquisition
- Grey Knights
- Inquisition
- Assassins
Sisters of Battle
- Sisters of Battle
- Storm Troopers

Imperial Guard
- Imperial Guard
- Storm Troopers

Mechanicus
- Skitarri
- Cult Mechanicus
- Imperial Knights

Space Marines
- Space Marines
- Legion of the Damned
Space Wolves
Dark Angels
Blood Angels

Chaos Space Marines
- Chaos Space Marines
- Khorne Daemonkin
Chaos Daemons
- Chaos Daemons
- Khorne Daemonkin

Eldar
- Craftworld Eldar
- Harlequins
Dark Eldar
- Dark Eldar
- Harlequins

Orks
Necrons
Tau Empire
Tyranids

For those who believe rules can't be condensed have a look at the 2nd Ed BatleBible pdf.

Yes it's cut out all of the pictures and fluff but they've managed to condense all of 2nd Ed 40k into 275 pages.

Thats every army list for every codex, including WD stuff like the Legion of the Damned army list; Falcon, Fire Prism and Harlequins for the Eldar and even the Squat army list! With seperate wargear lists for each, seperate entries for each unit and all of the race specific rules (of which there were a fair few).

And all the game rules and Psychic rules to boot.

I think it's the drop in general quality of the writing over the last 15+ years that's made the game and factions suffer so much. Even reading the fluff sections of codexes like Codex Chaos made you get p*ssed at the cowardly Imperium or Codex Eldar when it used to read almost like a Sci-Fi apocalyptic Silmirillion and would always tug my heartstrings for them when they birthed Slaanesh and created the Eye of Terror accidentally.

That was fluff-writing at it's finest and they now they just can't get writers anywhere near as good unfortunately, in my opinion. Good fluff makes for a good faction to me

Orks

Space Marine sub-factions... roll them all up into one Codex. Then spend the money saved from making Blood Angels, Grey Knight, Space Wolves and spend it on.....

Sisters of Battle. Ditch the fleur-de-lis and redesign the models as something that you can copyright.

To those who doubt that sisters would sell, I would buy a GW Sisters army in a heartbeat if there was a plastic model release. I know that there are a lot of closet sisters players out there... they just want to spend less than $10 a model.

Necrons can go feth themselves. Really. Hate those guys. Their models look like metal gaks and generally UGGHHH.

I would put the money back into regular CSM and give them much needed points drops. Also a big LOW that's like a combined megadaemon.

 WarbossDakka wrote:
Necrons can go feth themselves. Really. Hate those guys. Their models look like metal gaks and generally UGGHHH.

I would put the money back into regular CSM and give them much needed points drops. Also a big LOW that's like a combined megadaemon.

If it can drop a big template ranged attack, and do Str D in melee, count me in.

Although, I do like the Necron models. Just not the Necrons.

My .02:

Create 3 individual "pools" of which to start with: Sphere of Mankind, Syndicate of Destruction, Outsiders.

Place all the humies into pool #1. They'll represent the classic "good" side.

Place Chaos, Dark Elves, Necron and Orkz into Syndicate of Destruction. These represent the "bad" guys.

Place Tau, Eldar, and Tyranid into the Outsiders. These are pretty much neutral in my mind, with Tyranid simply being a force of nature.


The pools themselves don't mean anything, but they just help people quickly identify "what side" they want to play.

Culling the herd down...

Collapse the SM spanning tree into a single namespace - Space Marines. Really, does there need to be so_many_different_factions available for humans? Not saying remove them -- rather streamline. You can reduce model count by making models a generic construct, and selling "upgrade" kits that add heraldry/bits for a specific subfaction outlined in the Codex. Some of the fluff can be culled down too (space wolves).

Example: You buy a box of 10 marines. They're Std. issue, paint them up how ever you want. You decide to roll Templars, so in order to complete the look (100% optional beyond color schema) is to buy a templar upgrade box. Inside are enough bits and whatnot to do say 30 marines total in various ways. That way, you've eliminated the need to have multiple copies of a figure that are essentially the same core, multiple box art prints, etc. etc. Far more agile, and cuts cost down. It allows those who want to kitbash the ability to do so, making their army unique -- but it isn't required in order to play or chose a specific faction. I love the look of model X, but since I don't play army Y I can't use them -- this would eliminate a lot of that.

Space Marine's are comprised of SM(+sub fluff) and GK.
Inquistion returns to take over SoB, Assassins, Skittari and special forces units. Maybe IK should fall under here? They're kinda the oddball.
IG as stand alone.

For the love of Sigmar, give SoB some love and new models -- make them unique, revamp the IP, borrow same concept from Marines above. Use add-on kits to allow customization for sub-factions within the SoB/AS range.

Get rid of Knights as a faction, keep them around as a 1 per army Lord of War for imperial armies.

Money into Sisters.

I'd combined multiple things

Eldar into one because they don't need three different books, they could have a chapter tactics thing like SM.

SM into one book, possibly under Adeptus because we need to include Sisters somehow for they will save GW from ruin.

Necrons and Skitarii because forge the narrative that's why.

The main things that should be combined are Skitarri and Admech. They're each less than half a codex. No reason to separate them beyond GW greed. Throw in Imperial Knights while you're at it.

Militarum Tempestus should just be part of AM, although they won't get another codex release anyway, so it's not an issue.

Space Marines should be one codex, with Chapter Tactics, and Chaos something similar.

I disagree about Eldar. DE and CE are very different.

Give all the resources to Sisters.

Meh should be 3 books

Imperium

Chaos

Xeno

No allying But near Free list building within faction books (so IG with SM will still be a thing.

but Nid pals sorry.

Whoever you get rid of, use the money to update the Ork warbuggy and wartrakk models. Why are they still using those second edition kits? Do any other armies still have second edition kits from 20 years ago for some of their common units?

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
Whoever you get rid of, use the money to update the Ork warbuggy and wartrakk models. Why are they still using those second edition kits? Do any other armies still have second edition kits from 20 years ago for some of their common units?

Almost my entire range, actually...

We get it, you play sisters.

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
Do any other armies still have second edition kits from 20 years ago for some of their common units?

Sisters of Battle use 2nd edition kits for almost everything.

 Melissia wrote:

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
Do any other armies still have second edition kits from 20 years ago for some of their common units?

Sisters of Battle use 2nd edition kits for almost everything.

And (apart from one or two exceptions) their models don't even look bad, in my opinion. They could stay mostly the same, just be in plastic with more poseability and a decent set of gear options and they'd be good to go. Agreed on the Ork warbuggy and halftrak, though.

 Desubot wrote:
Meh should be 3 books

Imperium

Chaos

Xeno

No allying But near Free list building within faction books (so IG with SM will still be a thing.

but Nid pals sorry.

Streamlining is one thing, but this is simplifying to the point of stifling. Emperor knows we don't want another AoS debacle on our hands.

Besides, having the game reduced to what is basically "Marines plus some other stuff vs marines plus some other stuff, oh and there's also aliens too I guess if you really want to play them" is kind of obnoxious.

Can't stand these fething threads. There's no point to them, just another excuse for people to bash Tau, really. Trolling is what it is.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:
I think most people would pick up Sisters if they just had the plastic kits already, and a new codex

I VERY strongly doubt this.

Well ok, probably not MOST people but I bet they'd be popular. If I had the cash and/ or they weren't so expensive I'd start them up.

More people would buy them than the amount that bought a Militarum Tempestus army, that's for damn well sure.


Anyway OP, this should be obvious. Recently there has been several factions split off from the main faction in a bid to sell more books. Much like most others I think they should put all the marine books back into one and same with putting tempestus back into guard. Ignoring that cop-out though, I wouldn't care much to see craftworld Eldar go. There's little fluff behind them besides "Oooh we're mysterious, that's why we'll have no BL books about us." and their one universal character trait is "Well aren't we a bunch of sly, cocky pr*cks!" It's not that I don't like space elves, Dark Eldar are my second favorite faction, but craftworld eldar are just so uninteresting.

We all know sisters need the moniez right now. Invest the money into giving them flat chest armor and proper boots.

 Signet-Powers wrote:
More people would buy them than the amount that bought a Militarum Tempestus army, that's for damn well sure.

Well, to do that there just has to be like, 5 people

 Sidstyler wrote:
Can't stand these fething threads. There's no point to them, just another excuse for people to bash Tau, really. Trolling is what it is.

Most of the posts have been bashing IOM spam, rather than Tau. Though, admittedly, I did bash Tau.

...They know what they did...

 Selym wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Can't stand these fething threads. There's no point to them, just another excuse for people to bash Tau, really. Trolling is what it is.

Most of the posts have been bashing IOM spam, rather than Tau. Though, admittedly, I did bash Tau.

...They know what they did...

I was going to say something similar. While I do know what Sidstyler is talking about as I've seen it many times, they got off extremely light in this thread. Although, "don't speak too soon" and all that...

Burn away SoB. Lame boring models. Just add some Female Guardsmen or something else.

Burn the extra SM chapter codexes too.Put that money into something like Tau, or Orks, or Chaos.

The fact that GW hasn't updated Sisters of Battle models in five editions doesn't mean that the faction can't have promising models instead if GW actually does grow a few brain cells and update them

My views:

Merge Space Marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels into one big codex. Sorted. Use Chapter Tactics to get across special traits and stuff and Chapter Tactic specific units (ie. only Space Wolves get TWC and only Blood Angels get Sanguinary Priests + Death Company)
Try and merge as many things as possible in the new SM Dex, so everyone gets grav, Centurions, Stormtalons/Stormravens, Librarian Dreadnoughts, infernus pistols, etc.
Also, I wouldn't mind a Renegade Chapter option, where the army gets Marks and Chaosy stuff, but restricted access to 1st Company units and Relics, perhaps including a distrust mechanic where squads might be wary of eachother (perceiving eachother as traitors to them)?

Combine Knights, Skitarii and Mechanicus into one Codex: Mechanicus. Allow a Knight Detachment in that, which is a copy paste of the current one.

Roll Grey Knights, Inquisition, Assassins into one Codex: Inquisition.

Update Sisters, for the love of the God-Emperor!

Merge Astra Militarum and Tempestus Militarum into Codex: Astra Militarum. Allow a Tempestor Prime to be taken as an HQ, which unlocks Tempestus as Troops, but removes Infantry Squads and Veteran Squads from choices.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines could be rolled into one Codex, Codex: Chaos, or left. I don't know.
On from this, I wouldn't mind putting a note in all Imperial codexes, except the new Codex: Inquisition, that they can dedicate their force to Chaos, allowing for Daemons to be taken as Battle Brother allies, Marks to be taken, Daemonic Possession on vehicles, etc...

----------------------------------------------------------

Put Harlequin rules into both Eldar and Dark Eldar codexes.

Necrons, Orks, Tyranids and Tau are left unchanged.



Sorted. None removed. Just merged for simplicity.

We need more SM codices. BT lost their unique stuff and many of the main chapters have little more than a single special character.

One full codex for each. Give CSM Legions the same treatment. Then squat SoB, Orks, and IG. Waste of space.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not actually serious. Legions sure could use some love though.

Oh, yeah, of course! I would very much like to see Legion/Warband/Regiment traits implemented for every army.

MarsNZ wrote:We get it, you play sisters.

He asked. I answered. Problem, Heretic?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Problem, Heretic?

Yes.

 Selym wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Problem, Heretic?

Yes.

I have a retort, even if Furyou doesn't.

You can figure it out from this, if you know your memes

As much as I'm pro IoM I'd have to say SoB. At this point they're the only range left where metals are common. The price of the army is much higher due to this so very few new if any are buying into them. As a fully fleshed out army they dont even have a hard copy codex unlike every other army.

Just put them out of their misery already, the army reminds me of a suffering animal the the owner wont put down "because we love them!"

 Selym wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Can't stand these fething threads. There's no point to them, just another excuse for people to bash Tau, really. Trolling is what it is.

Most of the posts have been bashing IOM spam, rather than Tau. Though, admittedly, I did bash Tau.

...They know what they did...

I still don't see the point in these threads. How can a thread like this be at all constructive? All it does is piss people off, because every faction is someone's favorite, and considering the massive investment required to partake in this hobby, it inevitably gets personal.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Can't stand these fething threads. There's no point to them, just another excuse for people to bash Tau, really. Trolling is what it is.

Most of the posts have been bashing IOM spam, rather than Tau. Though, admittedly, I did bash Tau.

...They know what they did...

I still don't see the point in these threads. How can a thread like this be at all constructive? All it does is piss people off, because every faction is someone's favorite, and considering the massive investment required to partake in this hobby, it inevitably gets personal.

Basically this. We can all complain all day about ZOMG THE KNIGHTS NEED TO GO! I DON"T LIKE SPACHE MURINES! GET RID OF UM ALL! TAU ARE WEABOOS! Whatever m8. I say ditch the Scion codex, because it gives you nothing new that isn't in the base Guard book, and some of the talk about merging some books together is actually not bad, but saying this and that and this and those things need to go because I don't like them is just pointless.

I'd remove Tau. Not because of some perceived OP-ness, but because I think the army is flawed in the core of its design.

The game offers the option for both melee and ranged combat. An army that is not able to utilize one or the other is inherintly flawed. Because the army lacks melee, it needs to excel in shooting, and because of that, other armies can't compete so any shooty army I make will be at a disadvantage.

Also, this game is supposed to have "the right tools for the right jobs", the tools being the weapons and the jobs being the units being killed. Tau don't work like that. they've got tools that do practically all jobs that need doing. Blob of infantry comming towards you? Missiles. Small number, elite unit comming at you? Missiles. Vehicle comming at you? Unless it's a land raider, which you most likely can ignore, missiles.

They're just boring.

Melissia wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Problem, Heretic?

Yes.

I have a retort, even if Furyou doesn't.

You can figure it out from this, if you know your memes

... That is so much better than my sunglasses edit. May I?

DaPino wrote:
I'd remove Tau. Not because of some perceived OP-ness, but because I think the army is flawed in the core of its design.

The game offers the option for both melee and ranged combat. An army that is not able to utilize one or the other is inherintly flawed. Because the army lacks melee, it needs to excel in shooting, and because of that, other armies can't compete so any shooty army I make will be at a disadvantage.

Also, this game is supposed to have "the right tools for the right jobs", the tools being the weapons and the jobs being the units being killed. Tau don't work like that. they've got tools that do practically all jobs that need doing. Blob of infantry comming towards you? Missiles. Small number, elite unit comming at you? Missiles. Vehicle comming at you? Unless it's a land raider, which you most likely can ignore, missiles.

They're just boring.

Tau simply need their allied troops, such as the Kroot & Vespids to be properly fleshed out and viable, instead of near-pointless and badly implemented add-ons...

Imagine for example if Vespids where given a weapon more akin to Dark Pit's bow/staff weapon? Give them a short ranged, low rate of fire shooting attack and then the ability to fight with 2A per model on the charge, at ap3 in combat, at average WS/I and S5?
Suddenly you have a unit designed to neuter MEQ's at close range, both with shooting and close combat, but either on it's own won't be enough to take out a squad. (instead of their current crappy rules, which rely purely on shooting and yet isn't anywhere near sufficient to even reliably dent a typical MEQ unit!)
These guys would be a lot cooler if they were more akin to the likes of Necron Pretorians, and would likely actually see the table if they were made into a similar type of unit.

Same deal with Kroot... Bring in the Kroot cavalry & perhaps even the winged Kroot, give them perhaps the ability to take a handful of Flamers or Pulse Carbines as upgrades, and make them relevant as a real close combat skirmishing screen, rather than their current role of cheap bubble wrap for Fire Warriors and/or Pathfinders.

Tau are only boring atm because GW has entirely shoehorned them into a gunline army. Their background is actually really cool, being a very arrogant race who hand waves away the horrors of the galaxy as savage supersitions, while simultaneously their leadership is incredibly manipulative and sinister in how they subjugate others (even their own race!) 'for the Greater Good'.

Played another SOB player today.


Get rid of them. At least they aren't as overpowered as they used to be.

DaPino wrote:
I'd remove Tau. Not because of some perceived OP-ness, but because I think the army is flawed in the core of its design.

The game offers the option for both melee and ranged combat. An army that is not able to utilize one or the other is inherintly flawed. Because the army lacks melee, it needs to excel in shooting, and because of that, other armies can't compete so any shooty army I make will be at a disadvantage.

Also, this game is supposed to have "the right tools for the right jobs", the tools being the weapons and the jobs being the units being killed. Tau don't work like that. they've got tools that do practically all jobs that need doing. Blob of infantry comming towards you? Missiles. Small number, elite unit comming at you? Missiles. Vehicle comming at you? Unless it's a land raider, which you most likely can ignore, missiles.

They're just boring.

So the solution to the problem isn't to try and actually fix the rules, taking a hard look at the core mechanics of the Tau codex and figuring out how to make them better or more "interesting" to play (in other words, doing a little game design, which I guess, to be fair, doesn't seem to be what GW's game designers are very good at anymore), it's "feth it, axe 'em!"?

A little extreme, if you ask me, but I guess considering GW gave up on Fantasy and turned it into a kiddie clone of 40k complete with its own Space Marine derivative to act as its poster boys, it's probably how GW would actually handle it. Either that or they'd just make Tau into Space Marine clones.

Also, the main reason why missiles are so good is because the core rules encourage spamming mid-strength weaponry, it's not a problem with the Tau codex specifically. If that's why you think Tau should be removed from the game then Eldar should be, too, since scatter lasers are spammable and good generalist weapons just like missiles are. Maybe Guard, even, since they can still spam autocannons, right? If the game is supposed to be about having the right tools for the right jobs then the Tau codex isn't their only "failure" there.

 Sidstyler wrote:

DaPino wrote:
I'd remove Tau. Not because of some perceived OP-ness, but because I think the army is flawed in the core of its design.

The game offers the option for both melee and ranged combat. An army that is not able to utilize one or the other is inherintly flawed. Because the army lacks melee, it needs to excel in shooting, and because of that, other armies can't compete so any shooty army I make will be at a disadvantage.

Also, this game is supposed to have "the right tools for the right jobs", the tools being the weapons and the jobs being the units being killed. Tau don't work like that. they've got tools that do practically all jobs that need doing. Blob of infantry comming towards you? Missiles. Small number, elite unit comming at you? Missiles. Vehicle comming at you? Unless it's a land raider, which you most likely can ignore, missiles.

They're just boring.

So the solution to the problem isn't to try and actually fix the rules, taking a hard look at the core mechanics of the Tau codex and figuring out how to make them better or more "interesting" to play (in other words, doing a little game design, which I guess, to be fair, doesn't seem to be what GW's game designers are very good at anymore), it's "feth it, axe 'em!"?

A little extreme, if you ask me, but I guess considering GW gave up on Fantasy and turned it into a kiddie clone of 40k complete with its own Space Marine derivative to act as its poster boys, it's probably how GW would actually handle it. Either that or they'd just make Tau into Space Marine clones.

Also, the main reason why missiles are so good is because the core rules encourage spamming mid-strength weaponry, it's not a problem with the Tau codex specifically. If that's why you think Tau should be removed from the game then Eldar should be, too, since scatter lasers are spammable and good generalist weapons just like missiles are. Maybe Guard, even, since they can still spam autocannons, right? If the game is supposed to be about having the right tools for the right jobs then the Tau codex isn't their only "failure" there.

The question asked was not "How would you fix Tau" it was "what army would you get rid of?".
I'd much prefer them to fix Tau but that was just not relevant for the thread.

I would like to see Slaanesh Daemons get rebranded or replaced by malal daemons. (lol malal got Auto corrected to mall)

I also wouldn't lose my fecal matter if DA and BA were dropped to give SoB some attention.

Or give a reboot to the Ordo Xenos, Hereticus, And Malleus in that order

 Madoch1 wrote:
I would like to see Slaanesh Daemons get rebranded or replaced by malal daemons. (lol malal got Auto corrected to mall)

I also wouldn't lose my fecal matter if DA and BA were dropped to give SoB some attention.

Or give a reboot to the Ordo Xenos, Hereticus, And Malleus in that order

Mall Daemons?!

Do they sit around the food court in dressed in the latest hot topic outfit all day?

I wouldn't mind them refocusing slannesh into the pride side of things instead of the excess. I think it would work awesome.

INQ just needs there own BIG book. with lots of interesting cross codex formations. (also hide in Sisters, GK, and Deathwatch in there too)

Mall Daemons, they follow the deadliest Chaos God of them all: Paul Blart.


Seriously though Madoch, do you mean squatting DA and BA, or just rolling them into Codex: Space Marines like some have said? Because I'd rather not lose my army...

 Desubot wrote:

 Madoch1 wrote:
I would like to see Slaanesh Daemons get rebranded or replaced by malal daemons. (lol malal got Auto corrected to mall)

I also wouldn't lose my fecal matter if DA and BA were dropped to give SoB some attention.

Or give a reboot to the Ordo Xenos, Hereticus, And Malleus in that order

Mall Daemons?!

Do they sit around the food court in dressed in the latest hot topic outfit all day?

I wouldn't mind them refocusing slannesh into the pride side of things instead of the excess. I think it would work awesome.

INQ just needs there own BIG book. with lots of interesting cross codex formations. (also hide in Sisters, GK, and Deathwatch in there too)

Or maybe the CSM supplements could bite the big bazooka.

Also maybe hire some better name makers for Khorne stuff. You know…. Blood letters, blood reapers, blood crushers, blood hunters, blood bakers, blood farmers, blood dealers, blood angels. Oh wait


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Mall Daemons, they follow the deadliest Chaos God of them all: Paul Blart.


Seriously though Madoch, do you mean squatting DA and BA, or just rolling them into Codex: Space Marines like some have said? Because I'd rather not lose my army...

Just roll all of them into one book and label it Ultra-Wolf-Dark-Iron-Knight-Angel's-Fist's-Scars-Raven-Lizards….. from Space.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Melissia wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Problem, Heretic?

Yes.

I have a retort, even if Furyou doesn't.

You can figure it out from this, if you know your memes

... That is so much better than my sunglasses edit. May I?

Go ahead. I just kind of slapped it on there haphazardly, I wasn't really trying, I admit >.>

Then your native skill is higher than mine.

Necrons. So I don't have to spend more money on 40K

 Madoch1 wrote:

Or maybe the CSM supplements could bite the big bazooka.

Also maybe hire some better name makers for Khorne stuff. You know…. Blood letters, blood reapers, blood crushers, blood hunters, blood bakers, blood farmers, blood dealers, blood angels. Oh wait

I KNEW IT!

 Madoch1 wrote:

Just roll all of them into one book and label it Ultra-Wolf-Dark-Iron-Knight-Angel's-Fist's-Scars-Raven-Lizards….. from Space.

Honestly that's really what most have been saying. I'm cool with it as long as nothing's lost. GK probably can't fit in that book though (hence why those who wanted to roll it into something else put in it the Inquisition book or something else).

On a side note re-reading the post I misread "Mall Daemons" as "Matt Daemons". First thought might be Matt Damon but I'm pretty sure those are really aligned with the only Chaos God greater than Paul Blart.

The Imperium is doomed.

On a sidenote, I've been thinking about those suggesting that Imperial Knights go in the hypothetical combined AdMech book, do they really fit there?

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Madoch1 wrote:

Or maybe the CSM supplements could bite the big bazooka.

Also maybe hire some better name makers for Khorne stuff. You know…. Blood letters, blood reapers, blood crushers, blood hunters, blood bakers, blood farmers, blood dealers, blood angels. Oh wait

I KNEW IT!

 Madoch1 wrote:

Just roll all of them into one book and label it Ultra-Wolf-Dark-Iron-Knight-Angel's-Fist's-Scars-Raven-Lizards….. from Space.

Honestly that's really what most have been saying. I'm cool with it as long as nothing's lost. GK probably can't fit in that book though (hence why those who wanted to roll it into something else put in it the Inquisition book or something else).

On a side note re-reading the post I misread "Mall Daemons" as "Matt Daemons". First thought might be Matt Damon but I'm pretty sure those are really aligned with the only Chaos God greater than Paul Blart.

The Imperium is doomed.

On a sidenote, I've been thinking about those suggesting that Imperial Knights go in the hypothetical combined AdMech book, do they really fit there?

I dont think they really do.

I thought they where special as feth. though there are Admech alined ones.

I think they should just be in most books as individual houses with there own specializations and bonuses. Ad mech one can get like IWND, One in IG is bog standard but cheaper, Whtie dwarf ones are more for interesting effects, SM ones depending on the house works together with SM chapter. like hawkshroud with IF. and stuff.

 Desubot wrote:
I dont think they really do.

I thought they where special as feth. though there are Admech alined ones.

I think they should just be in most books as individual houses with there own specializations and bonuses. Ad mech one can get like IWND, One in IG is bog standard but cheaper, Whtie dwarf ones are more for interesting effects, SM ones depending on the house works together with SM chapter. like hawkshroud with IF. and stuff.

I think that would be pretty cool. Helps that a lot of books don't have much in the way of LOW units. For example, Dark Angels only have Azrael. This would at least give some more choice for LOW.
On a sidenote if there was an Imperial Knight in the DA Codex that would give me decent Anti-Air (that generic Carapace-mounted Anti-Air gun works), I'd buy it immediately!