Love is the death of duty so.....can Astartes fall in love, is it possible? For that matter can Grey Knights also fall in love, since they are like super astartes and all that?
What setting would they be in that they would ever be considering this? Consider that most of their life is, if not completely, focused in a monastic order of combat. Even forgetting the hypno-therapy they undergo and careful control of bodily hormones and biological assets, consider the social situation where an Astartes would be able to focus on something other than being the Emperor's weapon.
I'm pretty sure any fluff that makes space marines anything less that faceless, emotionless killing machines is old fluff. They should just call the next book, CODEX:NECRONS ASTARTES.
I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.
That sounds somewhat implausible, not least because sleeping with a man strong enough to crush your car (and not much lighter than it either) sounds... hazardous.
I mean seriously, those pelvic thrusts. He could take down most walls with those. It does sound harmful. Comparable to a jackhammer.
And a Marine breaching walls with pelvic thrusts does make for amusing mental images...
chazz huggins wrote: I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.
Your mate told you wrong. They never have sex, and he doesn't have a dog!
chazz huggins wrote: I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.
That there, is clearly the Iron Snakes' recruitment propaganda.
As for the Salamanders -- yes they have families, but if a Salamander marine is the only male of his family, well, his family line is going to end right there. Serving the Emperor or wetting your willies, your choice, mate.
Yes, but not that kind of relationship. Salamanders still maintain some family ties, but they are still superhuman demi-gods without any human emotions.
Space marines have their psychological makeup totally altered. They are, in human terms of the word, incapable of love. They may still have emotions they call love, but it won't be anything that a normal emotionally stable human would call love. It has been twisted into a total fanatical dedication to their duties, the Emperor, and their brothers. In the Salamanders this can be extended to caring for their old family/clan, but they wouldn't be the nice great uncle who plays with the kids necessarily. He'd be the adviser, a solver of disputes, and dispenser of justice.
On sex and attraction: Marines are not castrated in any form as there is no evidence of this anywhere. This would actually be counter productive as it would reduce their testosterone levels, eunuchs would make terrible soldiers. If anything they have greatly enhanced hormone levels. That said, their sex drive has likely been hijacked both mentally and physically to be channeled into aggression and combat. They would have the worst case of ED ever. Even if a marine were able to have sex, it wouldn't result in any children. All the chemical treatments and gene-therapy have almost certainly rendered them completely sterile. Their genetic makeup is no longer human. So because of this, a marine isn't going to have any attraction for the opposite sex. Ragnar was indeed more a curiosity and head knowledge, not any physical desire.
With Chaos, all this goes out the window of course.
I would think that this is entirely possible. After all the main problem with Space Marines is that they are superhuman, not posthuman.
What I mean by that is a Marine is simply a man x 100. All his human traits are enhanced, not just his capacity for physical violence. The Hours Heresy is illustrative of the fact that not only are Marines the pinnacle of human evolution, but also that our failings as humans can never be erased or forgotten. People seem to forget that there is a large and deeply involving philosophy behind Space Marines and Chaos. I think that GW had struck upon a very real and worthwhile human dilemma back in the day and a lot of the campy fun was there to alleviate the seriousness of that topic. Nowadays we forget entirely that 40k can be viewed in a very "psychological" way and the gun porn kind of takes over.
If you really look at the story of the Imperium and Chaos you can see a treasure trove of worthwhile and very valid debates. You have all these heavy metaphysical concepts dealing with the nature of man, fate, faith, and war, pretty much any malady that has plagued humanity and its all so cunningly wrapped up in this blanket of hyper grit, tongue in cheek humour and over the top violence....
Really 40k is a vehicle for the human dialogue and it allows us to explore our most villified faults and shortcomings in a way that skips the guilt and self censorship. We can very easily discuss exterminatus knowing we argue within the realms of science fiction. Its not so easy to talk about the Holocaust. Any good science fiction does this. Good writing does this period! This transportive effect is the mark of expert storytelling. We can identify with losing our parents at a young age because Harry Potter is a character we can relate to. We can take that painful journey ourselves, through Harry, and be honest about what we find (if we want).
Can a Space Marine love? Yes, unequivocally so. Perhaps that story, more than any other in the 41st Millennium, deserves to be told.
Love and sex can be separate entities... The question was love, not lust.
If the marine can feel compassion for his brothers, there's no reason he can't love other people as well. It may not be the same that we feel as modern day humans, if they're dosed up on all kinds of chemicals and alterations, but it could exist.
If jealousy, pride, anger and excitement are possible, care and love, even if it's on a family based level, certainly would be.
And without delving into those parts of the Internet, they could always have fun with one another if physical limitation with humans is an obstacle. I suspect in 38,000 years, folks are less bothered by that sort of thing.
I continue to hold that a Space Marine would not feel romantic love. There's a difference between having a deep affection for something or someone, or having a great interest in something or someone, and what seems to have been the real question, whether or not Space Marines could feel romantic love.
I submit that they can't, as they were designed for war and war alone, and that is a distraction from war.
Melissia wrote: I submit that they can't, as they were designed for war and war alone, and that is a distraction from war.
Honestly, if they can go around and feel love, then that is just another part where they are allegedly not optimised for their role.
For example, according to some sources their bolters are identical in firepower to bolters any human could use - but why bother making a massive, incredibly strong and stable firing platform if you won't use that to give it appropriate firepower? It'd be like putting a .50 HMG in the turret of an Abrams.
So I would not be surprised if love was within their capacity.
Eunuchs don't make terrible soldiers......generals such as narses and the guards of harems were eunuchs...admittedly testosterone is beneficial but they could gain them from more esoteric means.
In the iron snakes book the brother involved used a dog because of its abilities to detect the dark eldar plaguing the star cluster he defended.
I can't remember love in the brothers of the snake book...the women is merely a plot device to highlight the superhuman aspects of astartes and their godlike manner (she ages between stories ect)
This whole discussion is heresy. You might as well ask if astartes ever go gay for their 'brothers'...that lead to a blamming of biblical proportions from the dakka commisariat.
Hyglar's Hellraiser wrote: This whole discussion is heresy. You might as well ask if astartes ever go gay for their 'brothers'...that lead to a blamming of biblical proportions from the dakka commisariat.
I don't really see how it's any different than contemplating them getting off base with anyone else.
The only biggie to me, is relationships within an army/workplace can get very complicated very quickly, and potentially jeopardise the efficiency of their unit.
Unless you mean that there's a Dakka specific adverse reaction to this topic, akin to "why are there no girl space marines", and I apologise for taking the point seriously.
I doubt or rather hope there is few homophobes on dakka....
I should be more clear!!! Anything that detracts from the faceless superhuman killing machines with a flawed nature and brings them back to our level (human) would induce rage of such massive levels.....such a relationship within the chapter (and it would probably have to be homosexual...unless you find a space wolf chapter serf..the only female serfs I recall from post heresy black library books) and add a nuance that could be interesting but very difficult for the geebubz store manager to explain to little timmy over the AoS table
Would be too multi-dimensional for space marines!!!
Pretty sure all the energy involved in having the "more human" emotions is channeled into their trigger-fingers and fight-or-fight reflex responses (there is no "flight" for Space Marines).
It might have turned out different if ole' empy had kept a copy of plutarch 'on sparta' or knew epamindonas's sacred band. They had interested methods of motivating individual soldiers through very close bonds...
Space marines might have been A LOT more friendly with each other.
Hyglar's Hellraiser wrote: Eunuchs don't make terrible soldiers......generals such as narses and the guards of harems were eunuchs...admittedly testosterone is beneficial but they could gain them from more esoteric means.
They do infact make terrible soldiers. Especially if you would be castrating them before puberty. It leads to significantly less muscle growth. It also makes the subject far less aggressive. Not traits you want in soldiers.
Guards =/= soldiers. The Eunuch was only suited for a specific role where you don't want your guards messing with the ladies they are guarding. Its a sacrifice of physical ability for a specific desired quality. And sometimes it was used for a cultural reason and because the downsides weren't understood or not important. A general doesn't need his nades to be a good general, but a frontline fighter will need that muscle mass and aggression.
To use a contemporary example, the Unsullied in GoT would actually be worse soldiers for being eunuchs. At least they are accurately portraying their low muscle mass in the show. They would be better off simply not castrating them, but doing everything else in their brutal training regime. They would be stronger soldiers for it, well worth the minor inconvenience of them having sex lives.
Agreed with the above in principle for a warrior...a soldier needs to follow orders and be a controlled individual...so maybe a eunuch wouldn't be terrible...
Also it falls apart for a post-human...the intelligence, self control would be more important than the original biological tools for muscle mass...those are replaced or augmented by biological processes...a eunuch would make a good astartes maybe.
BUT this is theoretical. In reality the way the astartes are chosen having natural muscle mass and aggression would be very useful!
I think it's awfully silly to say that a Marine can turn to Chaos because of anger or hatred or feeling betrayed, but he cannot feel other human emotions.
Its all or nothing. You can't say Horus didn't love his daddy.
An intact man is just as capable of following orders. Especially if he's been drilled and trained since he was a child. Puberty isn't all that tumultuous for humans relative to other animals. Its not like we become raging bulls or something.
Grey Templar wrote: An intact man is just as capable of following orders. Especially if he's been drilled and trained since he was a child. Puberty isn't all that tumultuous for humans relative to other animals. Its not like we become raging bulls or something.
You don't spend a lot of time around teenagers, I take it?
darkcloak wrote: I think it's awfully silly to say that a Marine can turn to Chaos because of anger or hatred or feeling betrayed, but he cannot feel other human emotions.
Its all or nothing. You can't say Horus didn't love his daddy.
Given that there are humans who are incapable of feeling specific emotions(sociopaths) its far from silly to say a marine can't feel a certain emotion. Or at least can't feel that emotion in the same context a human might feel it. A marine might be able to love, but not in any way a human would call love.
Grey Templar wrote: An intact man is just as capable of following orders. Especially if he's been drilled and trained since he was a child. Puberty isn't all that tumultuous for humans relative to other animals. Its not like we become raging bulls or something.
You don't spend a lot of time around teenagers, I take it?
I do. Some of them are a little crazy, but they're far from being totally out of control. Then again, they've largely had stable home lives. Which reinforces my point that having stability and discipline can overcome any hormonal turmoil from puberty. We aren't raging bulls that will literally beat themselves bloody against a wall because there is an ovulating female on the other side.
Not in the overwhelming biological urge to procreate, no. However, there's plenty of other things teens channel that energy towards. We generally call these things "Dumb Things I Did as a Kid" which are now, in the modern era, documented and preserved on YouTube. Thank God I predate the modern internet.
I opened this thread expecting to read about Blood Angels and Space Wolves sharing a sauna and a hot oil bath while performing maintenance on their guns.
Ashiraya wrote: That sounds somewhat implausible, not least because sleeping with a man strong enough to crush your car (and not much lighter than it either) sounds... hazardous.
I mean seriously, those pelvic thrusts. He could take down most walls with those. It does sound harmful. Comparable to a jackhammer.
And a Marine breaching walls with pelvic thrusts does make for amusing mental images...
The adeptus hornicus: Thrusting themselves into the fray!
The whole idea of Marines turning Chaos is predicated on the fact that they do in fact have emotions.
What? So an Ultramarine can get all worked up about killing Tyranids, but somehow can't feel love in any capacity? That makes no sense.
This is why Marines turn traitor. They are not "killing machines" they are ubermensch in every sense of the word. Heightenened physical attributes, heightened mental and emotional attributes too. Space Marines don't undergoe years of indoctrination because they are stone cold killers, they suffer through that so they become stone cold. Chaplains aren't just there to say grace after dinner, they are the therapists of the chapter.
Just because GW thinks we are all bearded teens with no concept of the human condition doesn't make it true. Just because BL hasn't had the balls to explore these deep topics doesn't mean they aren't there.
I for one would really enjoy a book about a Space Marine falling in love. It would certainly be better than Space Wolves hijacking Thunderhawks for joy rides!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if Horus didn't love his father then why did he rebel? You can't feel shunned by something to which you have no emotional connection.
Thanks for all the great points from both sides. I dont think there is a right answer just different points of view. I started this topic not as a joke, but rather a way to get ideas on coming up with fluff for a custom astartes chapter/force. While i do consider astartes killing machines, i dont like to think of them as one dimensional cardboard cutouts. I wasnt trying to make some romeo n juliet or teen lovey dub crap. Rather I was trying to get ideas on how else astartes backrounds and motivations can be influenced/affected by women/females. Thanks again for all the great discussions.
Someone on dakka pointed out that astartes 'are made' when they are in their teens....the process somehow stunts and shapes their psyches (and in the better HH books I think this comes out...)
A space marines psyche is a mix of brutalised child, possibly of feral or hive world origin which may effect the cultural component of love. Ontop of that they are brainwashed and controlled 24-7. Growing up on violent and dangerous death worlds...taking part in selections where they witness unspeakable violence, brainwashed, more violence, indoctrinated into a cult, having their body image shattered...
So ask if they fall in love is interesting....but maybe is a push for a marine. From this thread (which I initially dismissed as heresy leads me to ask the question how they don't all fall to chaos through all their emotions exploding at some point in these long hideous lives.
('cept ultramarines and salamanders who seem to have the best of both worlds)
chazz huggins wrote: I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.
Your mate told you wrong. They never have sex, and he doesn't have a dog!
chazz huggins wrote: I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.
Your mate told you wrong. They never have sex, and he doesn't have a dog!
darkcloak wrote: I think it's awfully silly to say that a Marine can turn to Chaos because of anger or hatred or feeling betrayed, but he cannot feel other human emotions.
Its all or nothing. You can't say Horus didn't love his daddy.
Given that there are humans who are incapable of feeling specific emotions(sociopaths) its far from silly to say a marine can't feel a certain emotion. Or at least can't feel that emotion in the same context a human might feel it. A marine might be able to love, but not in any way a human would call love.
Ugh, I hate the media increasingly everyday... A sociopath doesn't feel empathy, remorse nor guilt (also doesn't care for the rules of society and generally will willingly break such rules giving an impression of being morally and socially irresponsible - most common with the dumber ones). A psychopath is/was one who shares all the attributes of a sociopath but also cannot feel emotions, a certain set of emotions or feel emotions in a normal manner.
And both terms are "antiquated" effective since the release of DSM-V. Sociopath is absorbed within the category of Antisocial personality disorder. Pretty sure psychopath is as well though it might still be used in a court of law.
Sorry, it irks me a bit when people use these terms, and it irks me a lot when these terms are used incorrectly to the point I wish their was a single entity that represented the entirety of the media whom I could beat with a 2x4 with some nails through it and concertina wire wrapped around it...
gudtymer wrote:Thanks for all the great points from both sides. I dont think there is a right answer just different points of view. I started this topic not as a joke, but rather a way to get ideas on coming up with fluff for a custom astartes chapter/force. While i do consider astartes killing machines, i dont like to think of them as one dimensional cardboard cutouts. I wasnt trying to make some romeo n juliet or teen lovey dub crap. Rather I was trying to get ideas on how else astartes backrounds and motivations can be influenced/affected by women/females. Thanks again for all the great discussions.
The truth is that due to their lifestyle, if nothing else, a Marine is far more likely to feel love - romantic or otherwise - for another Marine than they are to any of the human women they will encounter in their lives. Simply put, they don't stick around for long enough to form lasting emotional bonds with anyone who isn't travelling with them. There's the potential for a relationship to form with a Chapter Serf, but from what we've seen the Marines are generally barely aware of their serfs and treat them as part of the furniture.
chazz huggins wrote: I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.
Your mate told you wrong. They never have sex, and he doesn't have a dog!
In a real world context love is an amorphous and varied thing. The word love itself is often as a blunted form of many other feelings. I could imagine that Astartes could could feel caring, affection, and emotional intimacy... or at least the closest thing to it... with other humans and fellow marines. But love in the genuine sense; in the pit of your stomach, blind to the world sense; also demands a staggering amount of time and attention. Whether knowingly devoted or not the mind wanders to thoughts of the one desired which I think would be beyond most Astartes. Even humans can be prevented from falling in love simply by keeping busy... and its easy to end up caring about the people you see and work with on a daily basis but love is a much heavier commitment.
And its hard to really someone when you're fighting new enemies every damn day.
gudtymer wrote:Thanks for all the great points from both sides. I dont think there is a right answer just different points of view. I started this topic not as a joke, but rather a way to get ideas on coming up with fluff for a custom astartes chapter/force. While i do consider astartes killing machines, i dont like to think of them as one dimensional cardboard cutouts. I wasnt trying to make some romeo n juliet or teen lovey dub crap. Rather I was trying to get ideas on how else astartes backrounds and motivations can be influenced/affected by women/females. Thanks again for all the great discussions.
The truth is that due to their lifestyle, if nothing else, a Marine is far more likely to feel love - romantic or otherwise - for another Marine than they are to any of the human women they will encounter in their lives. Simply put, they don't stick around for long enough to form lasting emotional bonds with anyone who isn't travelling with them. There's the potential for a relationship to form with a Chapter Serf, but from what we've seen the Marines are generally barely aware of their serfs and treat them as part of the furniture.
chazz huggins wrote: I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.
Your mate told you wrong. They never have sex, and he doesn't have a dog!
Not in the traditional (procreational) mean of the word. They can feel empathy and responsibility, but not actually "love" for anyone, due to all the mental conditioning and indoctrination that makes them Astartes.
But some (maybe even the most) Chapters allow (and usually encourage)the Astartes to keep in connection with their families, but this is propably more about diminishing their chance of turning heretic.
Honestly if I were in charge of creating a Space Marine Chapter I would recruit only those who were sexually interested in the same sex, that is, homosexual- then I would ensure that the chapter consisted of 500 couples of Astartes.
Plenty of reasons for this, and I cite the success of the Theban Sacred Band in Classical Greece following the end of the Peloponnesian War as my explanation to why.
Essentially, when thrown into combat, you will fight tooth and nail for your best friends. However the idea is that you would fight even harder for your lover.
Does it translate directly into Space Marines? Maybe not, but I feel that the benefits it would bring- regardless of how small- would be enough to implement it.
darkcloak wrote: I think it's awfully silly to say that a Marine can turn to Chaos because of anger or hatred or feeling betrayed, but he cannot feel other human emotions.
Its all or nothing. You can't say Horus didn't love his daddy.
Given that there are humans who are incapable of feeling specific emotions(sociopaths) its far from silly to say a marine can't feel a certain emotion. Or at least can't feel that emotion in the same context a human might feel it. A marine might be able to love, but not in any way a human would call love.
Ugh, I hate the media increasingly everyday... A sociopath doesn't feel empathy, remorse nor guilt (also doesn't care for the rules of society and generally will willingly break such rules giving an impression of being morally and socially irresponsible - most common with the dumber ones). A psychopath is/was one who shares all the attributes of a sociopath but also cannot feel emotions, a certain set of emotions or feel emotions in a normal manner.
And both terms are "antiquated" effective since the release of DSM-V. Sociopath is absorbed within the category of Antisocial personality disorder. Pretty sure psychopath is as well though it might still be used in a court of law.
Sorry, it irks me a bit when people use these terms, and it irks me a lot when these terms are used incorrectly to the point I wish their was a single entity that represented the entirety of the media whom I could beat with a 2x4 with some nails through it and concertina wire wrapped around it...
Does that somehow invalidate the point? No its doesn't. Its perfectly reasonable for someone who has gone through, and continually goes through, the trauma a marine goes through to not be right in the head, from a normal human's perspective.
Ashiraya wrote: That sounds somewhat implausible, not least because sleeping with a man strong enough to crush your car (and not much lighter than it either) sounds... hazardous.
I mean seriously, those pelvic thrusts. He could take down most walls with those. It does sound harmful. Comparable to a jackhammer.
But there are some wicked creatures capable of taking such punishment, right? Other space marines! There is nothing preventing them from touching each other's magical horn (Kinda cartoonish NSFW, for cartoonish violence and Narwhal/Horse action ). Beside, every one else hate space marines, so sure they must stick to their owns . Sure, they will not put their Willies into Twinkles (Kinda NSFW again, animated genitalia from Swedish cartoon for kids), but that was the Emperor's will when he decided every space marine should be gay. I mean male. I think it was to prevent them from having babies (surprisingly SFW for a video about making babies, hairy animated buttock and mass baby expulsion), because they would not have enough nurse for them all.
As for love, sure marines can have spicy bromance. But basically everyone they know is within their own chapter. A story about two marines falling in love during Deathwatch duty, being separated and brainwashed after the end of their duty, and then meeting again on the battlefield and feeling an incomprehensible connexion could be pretty fun .
darkcloak wrote: I think it's awfully silly to say that a Marine can turn to Chaos because of anger or hatred or feeling betrayed, but he cannot feel other human emotions.
Its all or nothing. You can't say Horus didn't love his daddy.
Given that there are humans who are incapable of feeling specific emotions(sociopaths) its far from silly to say a marine can't feel a certain emotion. Or at least can't feel that emotion in the same context a human might feel it. A marine might be able to love, but not in any way a human would call love.
Ugh, I hate the media increasingly everyday... A sociopath doesn't feel empathy, remorse nor guilt (also doesn't care for the rules of society and generally will willingly break such rules giving an impression of being morally and socially irresponsible - most common with the dumber ones). A psychopath is/was one who shares all the attributes of a sociopath but also cannot feel emotions, a certain set of emotions or feel emotions in a normal manner.
And both terms are "antiquated" effective since the release of DSM-V. Sociopath is absorbed within the category of Antisocial personality disorder. Pretty sure psychopath is as well though it might still be used in a court of law.
Sorry, it irks me a bit when people use these terms, and it irks me a lot when these terms are used incorrectly to the point I wish their was a single entity that represented the entirety of the media whom I could beat with a 2x4 with some nails through it and concertina wire wrapped around it...
Does that somehow invalidate the point? No its doesn't. Its perfectly reasonable for someone who has gone through, and continually goes through, the trauma a marine goes through to not be right in the head, from a normal human's perspective.
Ignatius wrote:Honestly if I were in charge of creating a Space Marine Chapter I would recruit only those who were sexually interested in the same sex, that is, homosexual- then I would ensure that the chapter consisted of 500 couples of Astartes.
All I'll say to that is: Good luck finding that many twelve-year-olds who know what kind of sex they like.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:As for love, sure marines can have spicy bromance. But basically everyone they know is within their own chapter. A story about two marines falling in love during Deathwatch duty, being separated and brainwashed after the end of their duty, and then meeting again on the battlefield and feeling an incomprehensible connexion could be pretty fun .
Instant bestseller. Could call it Thrifty Shades of Murder.
gudtymer wrote: Love is the death of duty so.....can Astartes fall in love, is it possible? For that matter can Grey Knights also fall in love, since they are like super astartes and all that?
On sex and attraction: Marines are not castrated in any form as there is no evidence of this anywhere. This would actually be counter productive as it would reduce their testosterone levels, eunuchs would make terrible soldiers. If anything they have greatly enhanced hormone levels. That said, their sex drive has likely been hijacked both mentally and physically to be channeled into aggression and combat. They would have the worst case of ED ever. Even if a marine were able to have sex, it wouldn't result in any children. All the chemical treatments and gene-therapy have almost certainly rendered them completely sterile. Their genetic makeup is no longer human. So because of this, a marine isn't going to have any attraction for the opposite sex. Ragnar was indeed more a curiosity and head knowledge, not any physical desire.
With Chaos, all this goes out the window of course.
So, what you're saying is... Marines love BDSM?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
darkcloak wrote: I would think that this is entirely possible. After all the main problem with Space Marines is that they are superhuman, not posthuman.
What I mean by that is a Marine is simply a man x 100. All his human traits are enhanced, not just his capacity for physical violence. The Hours Heresy is illustrative of the fact that not only are Marines the pinnacle of human evolution, but also that our failings as humans can never be erased or forgotten. People seem to forget that there is a large and deeply involving philosophy behind Space Marines and Chaos. I think that GW had struck upon a very real and worthwhile human dilemma back in the day and a lot of the campy fun was there to alleviate the seriousness of that topic. Nowadays we forget entirely that 40k can be viewed in a very "psychological" way and the gun porn kind of takes over.
If you really look at the story of the Imperium and Chaos you can see a treasure trove of worthwhile and very valid debates. You have all these heavy metaphysical concepts dealing with the nature of man, fate, faith, and war, pretty much any malady that has plagued humanity and its all so cunningly wrapped up in this blanket of hyper grit, tongue in cheek humour and over the top violence....
Really 40k is a vehicle for the human dialogue and it allows us to explore our most villified faults and shortcomings in a way that skips the guilt and self censorship. We can very easily discuss exterminatus knowing we argue within the realms of science fiction. Its not so easy to talk about the Holocaust. Any good science fiction does this. Good writing does this period! This transportive effect is the mark of expert storytelling. We can identify with losing our parents at a young age because Harry Potter is a character we can relate to. We can take that painful journey ourselves, through Harry, and be honest about what we find (if we want).
Can a Space Marine love? Yes, unequivocally so. Perhaps that story, more than any other in the 41st Millennium, deserves to be told.
exalted
Automatically Appended Next Post: I seriously wish GW would change the target audience...
chazz huggins wrote:Plus Slaanesh marines do it every chance they get
Slaaneshi Marines do more fething than half the galaxy combined. They really oughta make a realistic novel about those guys.
Also, am I the only one who wants to see a novel wherein a Space Marine takes paramours, but ends up killing most of them when he engages in vaginal intercourse? I mean, seriously, that would actually make sense. For instance, a Brother-Sergeant spends some of his off-time with a Chapter Serf (in a Chapter where Serfs are like dirt), and then said Serf turns up in a supply closet with a shattered pelvis, and refuses to divulge how it happened (if she survived). This would be an excellent way for said Space Marine to relieve some of the stress of constantly being hyped-up on chems and constantly training and fighting (the "afterglow" effect, and all that).
On sex and attraction: Marines are not castrated in any form as there is no evidence of this anywhere. This would actually be counter productive as it would reduce their testosterone levels, eunuchs would make terrible soldiers. If anything they have greatly enhanced hormone levels. That said, their sex drive has likely been hijacked both mentally and physically to be channeled into aggression and combat. They would have the worst case of ED ever. Even if a marine were able to have sex, it wouldn't result in any children. All the chemical treatments and gene-therapy have almost certainly rendered them completely sterile. Their genetic makeup is no longer human. So because of this, a marine isn't going to have any attraction for the opposite sex. Ragnar was indeed more a curiosity and head knowledge, not any physical desire.
With Chaos, all this goes out the window of course.
So, what you're saying is... Marines love BDSM?
Its more like violence excitation. They'll get the same mental satisfaction from excelling in combat and performing their duties.
dusara217 wrote: Also, am I the only one who wants to see a novel wherein a Space Marine takes paramours, but ends up killing most of them when he engages in vaginal intercourse?
Yes. You indeed are the only one. Take your sick fantasies somewhere else. Maybe 4chan, they seem to like terrible stuff like this.
Not to mention that, unlike what you and Ashiraya says, if space marines are able to open doors made for human people rather than destroy them, if they are able to do fine arts and all that (see Blood Angels and pre-Heresy Emperor's Children), I am pretty sure this means that they are able to control their strength, and would totally be able to not destroy their partner.
Some of these space marine luuuurv devotees really need to read an old story - essay, really.
Man of steel, woman of kleenex.
OK, it's mainly about superman doin' the horizontal mambo with lois and how he'd pretty much gut her like a fish if he did so - but it applies just as well to superhuman genetically modified bullyboys of his most imperial majesty.
See the message literally just above yours. If Superman can shake hands without turning them into a bloody pulp, then he can also have sex without turning people into a bloody pulp.
The real problem when Superman wants to have sex is this (SFW unless you consider sexy male torso NSFW).
On sex and attraction: Marines are not castrated in any form as there is no evidence of this anywhere. This would actually be counter productive as it would reduce their testosterone levels, eunuchs would make terrible soldiers. If anything they have greatly enhanced hormone levels. That said, their sex drive has likely been hijacked both mentally and physically to be channeled into aggression and combat. They would have the worst case of ED ever. Even if a marine were able to have sex, it wouldn't result in any children. All the chemical treatments and gene-therapy have almost certainly rendered them completely sterile. Their genetic makeup is no longer human. So because of this, a marine isn't going to have any attraction for the opposite sex. Ragnar was indeed more a curiosity and head knowledge, not any physical desire.
With Chaos, all this goes out the window of course.
So, what you're saying is... Marines love BDSM?
Its more like violence excitation. They'll get the same mental satisfaction from excelling in combat and performing their duties.
So, you're implying...
Space Marines get battle boners. Welp. Combine with the Spehss Wolves, and you've got yourself one hell of a gakstorm over on /tg/.
On sex and attraction: Marines are not castrated in any form as there is no evidence of this anywhere. This would actually be counter productive as it would reduce their testosterone levels, eunuchs would make terrible soldiers. If anything they have greatly enhanced hormone levels. That said, their sex drive has likely been hijacked both mentally and physically to be channeled into aggression and combat. They would have the worst case of ED ever. Even if a marine were able to have sex, it wouldn't result in any children. All the chemical treatments and gene-therapy have almost certainly rendered them completely sterile. Their genetic makeup is no longer human. So because of this, a marine isn't going to have any attraction for the opposite sex. Ragnar was indeed more a curiosity and head knowledge, not any physical desire.
With Chaos, all this goes out the window of course.
So, what you're saying is... Marines love BDSM?
Its more like violence excitation. They'll get the same mental satisfaction from excelling in combat and performing their duties.
So, you're implying...
Space Marines get battle boners. Welp. Combine with the Spehss Wolves, and you've got yourself one hell of a gakstorm over on /tg/.
dusara217 wrote: Also, am I the only one who wants to see a novel wherein a Space Marine takes paramours, but ends up killing most of them when he engages in vaginal intercourse?
Yes. You indeed are the only one. Take your sick fantasies somewhere else. Maybe 4chan, they seem to like terrible stuff like this.
Not to mention that, unlike what you and Ashiraya says, if space marines are able to open doors made for human people rather than destroy them, if they are able to do fine arts and all that (see Blood Angels and pre-Heresy Emperor's Children), I am pretty sure this means that they are able to control their strength, and would totally be able to not destroy their partner.
The only way they would demolish everything is if they lacked grey matter in their spinal cords, making their movements less graceful and more brutal in a similar fashion to Chimps. But considering they can reload their bolters without crushing the internal guts of the gun, open doors as you said, or work as artificers for their own armor, they definitely don't suffer from this and have just as much control as a human.
The topic of Space Marine genitalia or fertility seems to recur with depressing regularity on many different message boards over the years. I suspect this may be due to the portrayal of Space Marines increasingly like macho movie action heroes, which are a stereotypical masculine wish fulfillment fantasy: the ultra strong, supremely competent, long lived, fast, square jawed action hero. The problem is they are portrayed as if they are your standard Hollywood action hero rather than a more dehumanized warrior. When this portrayal comes up against their supposed monk-like lifestyle and focus on combat and duty over all else, I suspect it raises the question in people about their manliness (i.e. their genitals or fertility). After all, in action movies, the stereotypical macho hero also gets the girl (or at least is theoretically capable of getting the girl). The very possibility that Space Marines might not be able to do so and/or does not want to do so at all seems to sit uncomfortably with some people, which I suspect is the reason why this topic keeps occurring. They can't be a wish fulfillment fantasy if they are sexually disinterested, neutered or infertile.
The only way they would demolish everything is if they lacked grey matter in their spinal cords, making their movements less graceful and more brutal in a similar fashion to Chimps. But considering they can reload their bolters without crushing the internal guts of the gun, open doors as you said, or work as artificers for their own armor, they definitely don't suffer from this and have just as much control as a human.
Keep in mind it is not only about his strength, but also his weight.
dusara217 wrote: Also, am I the only one who wants to see a novel wherein a Space Marine takes paramours, but ends up killing most of them when he engages in vaginal intercourse?
Yes. You indeed are the only one. Take your sick fantasies somewhere else. Maybe 4chan, they seem to like terrible stuff like this.
Not to mention that, unlike what you and Ashiraya says, if space marines are able to open doors made for human people rather than destroy them, if they are able to do fine arts and all that (see Blood Angels and pre-Heresy Emperor's Children), I am pretty sure this means that they are able to control their strength, and would totally be able to not destroy their partner.
I'm just saying, it's not like it would be graphic, it would just be a little aside where the main character's like "da fuq's going on?" when the dead serf turns up.
Iracundus wrote: The topic of Space Marine genitalia or fertility seems to recur with depressing regularity on many different message boards over the years. I suspect this may be due to the portrayal of Space Marines increasingly like macho movie action heroes, which are a stereotypical masculine wish fulfillment fantasy: the ultra strong, supremely competent, long lived, fast, square jawed action hero. The problem is they are portrayed as if they are your standard Hollywood action hero rather than a more dehumanized warrior. When this portrayal comes up against their supposed monk-like lifestyle and focus on combat and duty over all else, I suspect it raises the question in people about their manliness (i.e. their genitals or fertility). After all, in action movies, the stereotypical macho hero also gets the girl (or at least is theoretically capable of getting the girl). The very possibility that Space Marines might not be able to do so and/or does not want to do so at all seems to sit uncomfortably with some people, which I suspect is the reason why this topic keeps occurring. They can't be a wish fulfillment fantasy if they are sexually disinterested, neutered or infertile.
Well I can certainly see where that may be the case, but I don't think the setting would be impacted in any negative way by the inclusion of well thought out human drama amoung the ranks of the emperor's finest.
A Space Marine army could certainly work in the manner described above, monastic warriors so exist in real life. But couldn't also what I have posited be true? This is an imaginary playground after all. If Orks can grow out of spores and humans can be turned into machines or even Chaos Spa.....gajdjifndvagfcsnslpsgavvannnkkkklkkmmmmm
...
... As the previous author was saying, why can't "Astartes Love" exist in 40k? Because GW said so? Well they're idiots. There ought to be female Marines too. And not just for the satisfaction of depraved neckbeards, but also for the genuine exploration of the human spirit through creative writing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And because boobs.
Iracundus wrote: The topic of Space Marine genitalia or fertility seems to recur with depressing regularity on many different message boards over the years. I suspect this may be due to the portrayal of Space Marines increasingly like macho movie action heroes, which are a stereotypical masculine wish fulfillment fantasy: the ultra strong, supremely competent, long lived, fast, square jawed action hero. The problem is they are portrayed as if they are your standard Hollywood action hero rather than a more dehumanized warrior. When this portrayal comes up against their supposed monk-like lifestyle and focus on combat and duty over all else, I suspect it raises the question in people about their manliness (i.e. their genitals or fertility). After all, in action movies, the stereotypical macho hero also gets the girl (or at least is theoretically capable of getting the girl). The very possibility that Space Marines might not be able to do so and/or does not want to do so at all seems to sit uncomfortably with some people, which I suspect is the reason why this topic keeps occurring. They can't be a wish fulfillment fantasy if they are sexually disinterested, neutered or infertile.
Well I can certainly see where that may be the case, but I don't think the setting would be impacted in any negative way by the inclusion of well thought out human drama amoung the ranks of the emperor's finest.
A Space Marine army could certainly work in the manner described above, monastic warriors so exist in real life. But couldn't also what I have posited be true? This is an imaginary playground after all. If Orks can grow out of spores and humans can be turned into machines or even Chaos Spa.....gajdjifndvagfcsnslpsgavvannnkkkklkkmmmmm
...
... As the previous author was saying, why can't "Astartes Love" exist in 40k? Because GW said so? Well they're idiots. There ought to be female Marines too. And not just for the satisfaction of depraved neckbeards, but also for the genuine exploration of the human spirit through creative writing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And because boobs.
Actually there aren't female marines because GW decided to have geneseed by only compatible with male genes. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Because GW thinks girls are icky and thinks that their customers think girls are icky. I'm entirely unsurprised that this thread devolved in to talk about female Space Marines. But if you truly do not want to fantasize about marine-on-marine buttsex, why are you trying to ask questions about Marines having romantic love?
Melissia wrote: Because GW thinks girls are icky and thinks that their customers think girls are icky. I'm entirely unsurprised that this thread devolved in to talk about female Space Marines. But if you truly do not want to fantasize about marine-on-marine buttsex, why are you trying to ask questions about Marines having romantic love?
Because, secretly, every Ultramarine fanboy wants a chance at buttsexs with Rawbutt Girlyman.
... As the previous author was saying, why can't "Astartes Love" exist in 40k? Because GW said so? Well they're idiots. There ought to be female Marines too. And not just for the satisfaction of depraved neckbeards, but also for the genuine exploration of the human spirit through creative writing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And because boobs.
Ashiraya wrote: Keep in mind it is not only about his strength, but also his weight.
That should definitely not be a problem.
dusara217 wrote: I'm just saying, it's not like it would be graphic, it would just be a little aside where the main character's like "da fuq's going on?" when the dead serf turns up.
Still a worse love story than Twilight . Seriously, just no.
darkcloak wrote: There ought to be female Marines too. And not just for the satisfaction of depraved neckbeards, but also for the genuine exploration of the human spirit through creative writing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And because boobs.
All-male marines actually makes sense. Or all-female, but the Emperor was a macho man from a time when men did everything important enough to put in a book. And even if not incapable of sex infertility makes sense too. Marines may be superhuman but if they don't protect the human population their Chapter recruits from their geneseed will be useless and the Chapter will die out. This way there's an incentive for Space Marines to care about normal humans.
I think it also depends on which "love" is in question.
Traditional romantic or sexual love is probably out of the question. They are taken at an age when puberty has just begun. I imagine it to be quite easy, with the right technology, to ensure that your soldiers turn out asexual. Normal thoughts on biology and relationships are probably not a concern for space marines.
Being a brotherhood probably means a space marine can feel fraternal love, perhaps even some paternal love in some cases. Many stories have shown a space marine showing deep emotional loss and anger at the death of one of their members. this would imply a previous connection with their brothers which you could call "love".
In the last Wolf dex, one of the companies is lost in the outer reaches. They land at a seemingly utopian planet and meet the human population for a feast. The Wolf Lord makes a pass at one of the comely servants.
So it seems it's quite possible for Marines to get it on and at least some make some effort at it.
I'm sure the perfect perfect codex chapters see this as wrong and have hypnotherapy and other countermeasures, but the more feral chapters don't have those restrictions.
Durandal wrote: In the last Wolf dex, one of the companies is lost in the outer reaches. They land at a seemingly utopian planet and meet the human population for a feast. The Wolf Lord makes a pass at one of the comely servants.
Well, the Wolves may be exceptions. Their recruitment process follows some very different rules.
Durandal wrote: In the last Wolf dex, one of the companies is lost in the outer reaches. They land at a seemingly utopian planet and meet the human population for a feast. The Wolf Lord makes a pass at one of the comely servants.
To be fair, if the Space Wolves do it, that's pretty much a guarantee that other chapters don't.
I think it also depends on which "love" is in question.
Traditional romantic or sexual love is probably out of the question. They are taken at an age when puberty has just begun. I imagine it to be quite easy, with the right technology, to ensure that your soldiers turn out asexual. Normal thoughts on biology and relationships are probably not a concern for space marines.
Being a brotherhood probably means a space marine can feel fraternal love, perhaps even some paternal love in some cases. Many stories have shown a space marine showing deep emotional loss and anger at the death of one of their members. this would imply a previous connection with their brothers which you could call "love".
As the Emperor never intended the Space Marines to be a self-sufficient, or even permanent, organization, it makes sense that something is in place (or absent) that results in them being unable to self-propagate.
They can't self-propagate because they're so dissimilar to humans that they have an entire implant (The geneseed) to alter their body on a genetic level to make sure it can actually support the rest of the implants and modifications.
This is also the real reason there are no female space marines: A female with the same genetic modifications might be sufficiently genetically compatible with the male that procreation might occur.
Even if a marine were to have sex with a human woman, the chance of her conceiving is so close to zero as makes no difference.
Sort of. Not saying that Space Marine + woman = Space Marine Baby, but what it does potentially permit is dynasties of people who are genetically-predisposed to accepting the various implants and geneseed, which would permit a Chapter, given enough time, to overcome the limits of their recruiting worlds by basically "farming" candidates.
Absolutely - the testes are responsible for the majority of the testosterone production in a male's body, and you generally do as little surgery as possible because surgery is risky. The penis may have been removed to make cathetisation easier, but generally they're useful for peeing.
I meant more from the point of view - do they actually have "the bits"?
Its not something I can ever recall fluff-wise being mentioned, GW being relatively conservative et al which is understandable especially post rogue trader days when things were a touch more wacky and indie.
With geneseed impants its quite possible those bits simply atrophy?
As I said, the testes will probably be normal size (or relative) - they're needed somewhat for all the bulking up. The penis may or may not be present.
Let's not get confused here. Nothing wrong with a little Marine on Marine action folks. Its the twenty first century here people. C'mon. Get it together.
GW says lots of dumb crap. Do you know how this probably came up? I can hazard a guess.
Yea mates, and they'd be ya know the best an all that, ya know the Emperor's finest! Best soldiers in the Imperium! Real elite dudes!
Yeah awesome!
Yeah!
Yeah!
Like Space Spartans, like ya know... The battle of Thermopylae in spa....
.... Wait ere now a minute...
Whotsat?
Weren't Spartans notoriously....
...Monastic! .... They're like monks in Space!
Yeah!
Yeah!
Awesome!
Wot about girl monks eh?
Shut up Randy!
Serious note though I've always thought that it was largely okay for Space Marines to be male only, but I can see certain chapters accepting women. I almost said female there, like I had never seen one! Like the Wolf Wolves. A chick could totally climb a big ass mountain on Asaheim to kill a big Wolf for dinner (because on Asaheim they believe in traditional gender roles, lol). But when she gets to the top of the mountain and scorns the Wolf to death maybe there is a Rune Preist there and he is like " holy gak! If we hire this broad, no more fething stolen Thunderhawks!".
Totally plausible. For girl. Marines.
Why wouldn't you want girls playing this game? Duh.
Ratius wrote: Which begs the question do SMs even have reproductive organs at all?
Well of course they do. Removing them would cause massive hormonal changes in a system thats already getting tossed way out of balance and needs to be regulated. No need to make it worse.
Of course in a marine the testes will only function as a source of testosterone and won't be functional reproductive organs. The Progenoids will be the new functional reproductive organs.
I meant more from the point of view - do they actually have "the bits"?
Its not something I can ever recall fluff-wise being mentioned, GW being relatively conservative et al which is understandable especially post rogue trader days when things were a touch more wacky and indie.
With geneseed impants its quite possible those bits simply atrophy?
If you were designing a living weapon, you would remove the bits as they just waste resources.
On the other hand, the IoM has a cult about the sanctity of the human form.
"Love" is in any case a pointless distraction and possible temptation for an SM, so presumably it is removed during hypnoindoctrination. But this is not a perfect process, or no marines would ever fall -- they do have jealousy and other traits from their former lives that leak through sometimes. Lote of marines do fall, so presumably they are capable of love. It would however be looked at as a sign of the indoctrination failing and a weakness.
Psienesis wrote: As the Emperor never intended the Space Marines to be a self-sufficient, or even permanent, organization, it makes sense that something is in place (or absent) that results in them being unable to self-propagate.
The Space Marines would be too difficult to exterminate, that would be completely and utterly unrealistic for the Emperor to have secret plans to slaughter them all as he did the Thunder Warriors. Think about it, the Thunder Warriors were wiped out in one mission. They were from one world, and they had massive flaws that the Space Marines lacked. The Space Marines, on the other hand, are a combination of Chuck Norris-level-fame and rock star fame. Killing them off would require decades, if not centuries, of open warfare that would leave the Imperium of Man weak to attack from Xenos or Chaos, as the whole of the Imperium would rise up in their defense. The Ultramarines, especially, would have massive armies at their backs, not to mention the fact that there would be 18 Primarchs, who each have an intellect that's almost the equal of the Emperor's (or, in the case of Magnus and Iron Hand, the equal), and a tactical acumen beyond any of the Emperor's human commanders, and said Primarchs would never let their Astartes be wiped out (except for a few exceptions). The idea that the Emperor meant to annihilate the Space Marines after the Great Crusade was over is, quite simply, illogical and preposterous.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: As the Emperor never intended the Space Marines to be a self-sufficient, or even permanent, organization, it makes sense that something is in place (or absent) that results in them being unable to self-propagate.
The Legions were quite self-sufficient. Many Space Marine Homeworlds contributed to the Imperial Army, Navy, and Legions, all while producing fucktons of munitions (see: Fallen Angels, Unremembered Empire, etc.) and weapons.The only thing that would make them not completely self-sufficient would be their reliance upon the Mechanicum for the really good stuff, but same goes for the entirety of the Imperium (and many Forge Worlds would inevitably throw their lots in with the Legions).
No and no.
The fluff said they would act as tribal leaders.
Space marines cannot love a single person, except in a brother like way.
But they can be in love with their homeland and homeworld. Their clans and their families they would obviously have a pretty huge connection too.
That makes little sense, as love is an emotion, and you cannot only have half of an emotion. If a Space Marine can feel storge (paternal) love, what would be to stop them from feeling platonic love? If a Marine can feel platonic love, what would stop him from feeling phllalautia (self) love? If a Marine can feel phllalautia, what is to stop him from feeling Pragma (long-lasting, commited, deep)? If a Marine could feel Pragma, then what is to stop him from feeling Ludus (obsessive)? We have examples of pretty much all of these in the lore. We have Marines feeling platonic, storge and Pragma with their brothers. We have them feeling Agape and Ludus towards the Emperor and their Primarchs, we have them feeling phllalautia when they turn their coats, we have them feeling all of these examples, so what is to stop them from feeling Eros (sexual, passionate)? A little sidenote, I just realized that Card was making an allusion to the Greek God Eros (Cupid), when he named the IF HQ "eros" he meant it to represent Ender's desires. Anyways, back to what I was saying. Oh, no, nevermind, I pretty much said what I meant to say.
). Beside, every one else hate space marines, so sure they must stick to their owns 
. Sure, they will not 
exalted
