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They can't self-propagate because they're so dissimilar to humans that they have an entire implant (The geneseed) to alter their body on a genetic level to make sure it can actually support the rest of the implants and modifications.

This is also the real reason there are no female space marines: A female with the same genetic modifications might be sufficiently genetically compatible with the male that procreation might occur.

Even if a marine were to have sex with a human woman, the chance of her conceiving is so close to zero as makes no difference.

Which begs the question do SMs even have reproductive organs at all?

Sort of. Not saying that Space Marine + woman = Space Marine Baby, but what it does potentially permit is dynasties of people who are genetically-predisposed to accepting the various implants and geneseed, which would permit a Chapter, given enough time, to overcome the limits of their recruiting worlds by basically "farming" candidates.

Absolutely - the testes are responsible for the majority of the testosterone production in a male's body, and you generally do as little surgery as possible because surgery is risky. The penis may have been removed to make cathetisation easier, but generally they're useful for peeing.

 Ratius wrote:
Which begs the question do SMs even have reproductive organs at all?

To badly quote Star Trek, Space Marines are anatomically correct... they just may not be fully functional.

edit - gotcha.

I meant more from the point of view - do they actually have "the bits"?
Its not something I can ever recall fluff-wise being mentioned, GW being relatively conservative et al which is understandable especially post rogue trader days when things were a touch more wacky and indie.
With geneseed impants its quite possible those bits simply atrophy?

As I said, the testes will probably be normal size (or relative) - they're needed somewhat for all the bulking up. The penis may or may not be present.

 Ratius wrote:
Which begs the question do SMs even have reproductive organs at all?

Progenoid gland.

... Whoa whoa!

Let's not get confused here. Nothing wrong with a little Marine on Marine action folks. Its the twenty first century here people. C'mon. Get it together.

GW says lots of dumb crap. Do you know how this probably came up? I can hazard a guess.

Yea mates, and they'd be ya know the best an all that, ya know the Emperor's finest! Best soldiers in the Imperium! Real elite dudes!

Yeah awesome!

Yeah!

Yeah!

Like Space Spartans, like ya know... The battle of Thermopylae in spa....

.... Wait ere now a minute...

Whotsat?

Weren't Spartans notoriously....

...Monastic! .... They're like monks in Space!

Yeah!

Yeah!

Awesome!

Wot about girl monks eh?

Shut up Randy!

Serious note though I've always thought that it was largely okay for Space Marines to be male only, but I can see certain chapters accepting women. I almost said female there, like I had never seen one! Like the Wolf Wolves. A chick could totally climb a big ass mountain on Asaheim to kill a big Wolf for dinner (because on Asaheim they believe in traditional gender roles, lol). But when she gets to the top of the mountain and scorns the Wolf to death maybe there is a Rune Preist there and he is like " holy gak! If we hire this broad, no more fething stolen Thunderhawks!".

Totally plausible. For girl. Marines.

Why wouldn't you want girls playing this game? Duh.

 Ratius wrote:
Which begs the question do SMs even have reproductive organs at all?

Well of course they do. Removing them would cause massive hormonal changes in a system thats already getting tossed way out of balance and needs to be regulated. No need to make it worse.

Of course in a marine the testes will only function as a source of testosterone and won't be functional reproductive organs. The Progenoids will be the new functional reproductive organs.

Maybe that's why we don't want girl Marines? Because they'd just be running the show as usual!

Honey! I took another Blackstone Fortress! Mwuhahahaha the Imperium shall weep at my pow....

... That's nice dear, give me the keys.

Badum-tiss!

Animus wrote:
The 4e Chaos Marine Codex says they can feel love, but that tradition, constraint and responsibility hold them back.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
Don't the Salamanders have relationships? Or is that old fluff?

No and no.
The fluff said they would act as tribal leaders.

Space marines cannot love a single person, except in a brother like way.

But they can be in love with their homeland and homeworld. Their clans and their families they would obviously have a pretty huge connection too.

 Ratius wrote:
edit - gotcha.

I meant more from the point of view - do they actually have "the bits"?
Its not something I can ever recall fluff-wise being mentioned, GW being relatively conservative et al which is understandable especially post rogue trader days when things were a touch more wacky and indie.
With geneseed impants its quite possible those bits simply atrophy?

If you were designing a living weapon, you would remove the bits as they just waste resources.

On the other hand, the IoM has a cult about the sanctity of the human form.

"Love" is in any case a pointless distraction and possible temptation for an SM, so presumably it is removed during hypnoindoctrination. But this is not a perfect process, or no marines would ever fall -- they do have jealousy and other traits from their former lives that leak through sometimes. Lote of marines do fall, so presumably they are capable of love. It would however be looked at as a sign of the indoctrination failing and a weakness.

Which is properly grimdark.

 Psienesis wrote:
As the Emperor never intended the Space Marines to be a self-sufficient, or even permanent, organization, it makes sense that something is in place (or absent) that results in them being unable to self-propagate.

The Space Marines would be too difficult to exterminate, that would be completely and utterly unrealistic for the Emperor to have secret plans to slaughter them all as he did the Thunder Warriors. Think about it, the Thunder Warriors were wiped out in one mission. They were from one world, and they had massive flaws that the Space Marines lacked. The Space Marines, on the other hand, are a combination of Chuck Norris-level-fame and rock star fame. Killing them off would require decades, if not centuries, of open warfare that would leave the Imperium of Man weak to attack from Xenos or Chaos, as the whole of the Imperium would rise up in their defense. The Ultramarines, especially, would have massive armies at their backs, not to mention the fact that there would be 18 Primarchs, who each have an intellect that's almost the equal of the Emperor's (or, in the case of Magnus and Iron Hand, the equal), and a tactical acumen beyond any of the Emperor's human commanders, and said Primarchs would never let their Astartes be wiped out (except for a few exceptions). The idea that the Emperor meant to annihilate the Space Marines after the Great Crusade was over is, quite simply, illogical and preposterous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
As the Emperor never intended the Space Marines to be a self-sufficient, or even permanent, organization, it makes sense that something is in place (or absent) that results in them being unable to self-propagate.

The Legions were quite self-sufficient. Many Space Marine Homeworlds contributed to the Imperial Army, Navy, and Legions, all while producing fucktons of munitions (see: Fallen Angels, Unremembered Empire, etc.) and weapons.The only thing that would make them not completely self-sufficient would be their reliance upon the Mechanicum for the really good stuff, but same goes for the entirety of the Imperium (and many Forge Worlds would inevitably throw their lots in with the Legions).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Animus wrote:
The 4e Chaos Marine Codex says they can feel love, but that tradition, constraint and responsibility hold them back.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
Don't the Salamanders have relationships? Or is that old fluff?

No and no.
The fluff said they would act as tribal leaders.

Space marines cannot love a single person, except in a brother like way.

But they can be in love with their homeland and homeworld. Their clans and their families they would obviously have a pretty huge connection too.

That makes little sense, as love is an emotion, and you cannot only have half of an emotion. If a Space Marine can feel storge (paternal) love, what would be to stop them from feeling platonic love? If a Marine can feel platonic love, what would stop him from feeling phllalautia (self) love? If a Marine can feel phllalautia, what is to stop him from feeling Pragma (long-lasting, commited, deep)? If a Marine could feel Pragma, then what is to stop him from feeling Ludus (obsessive)? We have examples of pretty much all of these in the lore. We have Marines feeling platonic, storge and Pragma with their brothers. We have them feeling Agape and Ludus towards the Emperor and their Primarchs, we have them feeling phllalautia when they turn their coats, we have them feeling all of these examples, so what is to stop them from feeling Eros (sexual, passionate)? A little sidenote, I just realized that Card was making an allusion to the Greek God Eros (Cupid), when he named the IF HQ "eros" he meant it to represent Ender's desires. Anyways, back to what I was saying. Oh, no, nevermind, I pretty much said what I meant to say.