Behind Enemy Lines says "If you have one of your scoring units within 12" of your opponents table edge, score 1 point..."
If you move your jetbike 12" from your board edge straight towards the opponents board edge, then turbo boosted 24" directly towards their board edge (so you have moved a total of 36" directly towards your opponents table edge) do you have Behind Enemy Lines?
My vote was yes, because after moving 36" you are within 12" of your opponents table edge. From the rulebook, two units that are 5 inches from each other closest to closest are said to be within five inches of each other. A model that has his furthest edge 6 inches from another models closest point is said to be wholly within 6 inches of each other. Since behind enemy lines only requires you to be within 12 inches of the table edge, you have Behind Enemy Lines.
The no vote(s) went along the lines of you aren't EXACTLY 12" away from the table edge when you move 36 inches directly towards it. You are 12(point)00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 inches from the table edge.
I couldn't find anything in the rulebook about this. The closest thing I've seen to something like this is when people are arguing about whether or not you can first turn charge with a unit that moves 12 inches, assuming both the unit charging and the unit being charged start at the edge of their deployment areas. Lots of people are saying no because there has to be 24 inches of space between the deployment zones, so you are 20.0000001 inches apart. Even for charging first turn, I couldn't find anything that says that, just that there are supposed to be 24" between each deployment zone -which to me, at least, indicates that GW encourages long-shot first turn charges.
How did you determine that you were moving "directly toward" the opposite board edge?
If you just guessed or eyeballed it, then you get to measure and find out whether you guessed wrong. The crooked furniture built by people who insist on eyeballing four feet lines is a testament to how easy it is to get your straight line wrong. If you measured, as in you got out your tape measure, found the spot on the opposite edge of the board 48" away from where you started, then measured 12" and then 24" more inches to that spot, you'll arrive 12" away from that table edge.
Okay, what about behind enemy lines (since that was what it was specifically in this case, I didn't realize linebreaker was worded differently).
Models move onto the board from your board edge, as if it was hanging off the board for all of it except the very front of it's base, so your board edge is 0 inches of movement, and then you measure from there.
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solkan wrote: How did you determine that you were moving "directly toward" the opposite board edge?
If you just guessed or eyeballed it, then you get to measure and find out whether you guessed wrong. The crooked furniture built by people who insist on eyeballing four feet lines is a testament to how easy it is to get your straight line wrong. If you measured, as in you got out your tape measure, found the spot on the opposite edge of the board 48" away from where you started, then measured 12" and then 24" more inches to that spot, you'll arrive 12" away from that table edge.
But not with enough precision. There are two possible cases here:
1) You moved less than 36" and/or at a slight angle, even if it is only 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001" less or 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001* away from a perfect 90* angle. In this case you are not within 12" of the table edge, and don't get the objective.
or
2) You moved more than 36", putting your model within 12" of the table edge. However, since you exceeded the unit's maximum movement distance you are a cheater.
Don't bother to claim that you moved exactly 36" at exactly a 90* angle, because it is not possible for humans to measure a literal perfect 36" or 90* angle. You're always going to be short or long, even by the width of a single atom, so the only question is whether you're short of the required distance to claim the objective or cheating.
Moving on from reserves is measuring from the edge of the table onwards, as if it was off the edge of the table. If the model doesn't have enough movement to get the entire model on the board, then you go as far as you can and the rest of it hangs off of the edge of the board. Or you do a "This counts as being in X position."
It's on page 136 of my rulebook.
Therefore the first 12 inch move would get you up to the edge of your own deployment zone, then the next 24 inch move would get you to the edge of their deployment zone.
You would then need to move the distance equal to the diameter of the model.
greytalon666 wrote: Even for charging first turn, I couldn't find anything that says that, just that there are supposed to be 24" between each deployment zone -which to me, at least, indicates that GW encourages long-shot first turn charges.
This is the same situation, just with different distances. Either all models have been deployed legally and are at least one atom-width more than 24" apart, or at least one model has been deployed and/or moved illegally and they are less than 24" apart. If you insist on attempting a charge that you know is impossible without measurement error (whether accidental or a deliberate "oops, I moved my model a bit too far") and claim that you are entitled to the benefits of that measurement error then you should expect your opponent to end the game and refuse to play against you again.
Claiming that human error disallows things is wrong. The rules state that the two deployment zones are within 24" of each other, as shown in the measuring distances on page 10.
Even if someone COULDN'T measure EXACTLY 36" EXACTLY perpendicular to their own board edge (and if you enough of an donkey-cave to make me pull out protractors and steel squares to get exactness, instead of being cool like most people and going "oh, your intent is xxxxx? Okay, cool, I understand what you are doing, go ahead and proceed, I'm going to pack up and not play against YOU), the rules allow for it, and stating intent goes a long way towards making the game fun and enjoyable for both parties. The rules don't mention anything about atom-widths. They just say you can deploy anywhere entirely within your deployment zone, and there are EXACTLY 24 inches between deployment zones.
Automatically Appended Next Post: there are 609,600,000 nanometers in 24 inches. I don't see anywhere in the book that it says 609,600,001 nanometers between deployment zones. I'd accept "more than 24" apart", if you could point out where it says "24 inches and 1 atom width" "1 nanometer more than 24 inches" or even "more than 24 inches apart".
But not with enough precision. There are two possible cases here:
1) You moved less than 36" and/or at a slight angle, even if it is only 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001" less or 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001* away from a perfect 90* angle. In this case you are not within 12" of the table edge, and don't get the objective.
or
2) You moved more than 36", putting your model within 12" of the table edge. However, since you exceeded the unit's maximum movement distance you are a cheater.
Don't bother to claim that you moved exactly 36" at exactly a 90* angle, because it is not possible for humans to measure a literal perfect 36" or 90* angle. You're always going to be short or long, even by the width of a single atom, so the only question is whether you're short of the required distance to claim the objective or cheating.
Show me how with a standard tape measure, you are measuring atoms. Better yet, show me how you are measuring tenths of a nano-meter with your naked eye.
I don't really get the nanometer/atom argument, but the table is 48" wide, and you move 36" total from your edge. This leaves you 12" from his table edge aka outside of his deployment zone. It doesn't really matter what the tape measure says, rules wise, it is illegal.
deviantduck wrote: I don't really get the nanometer/atom argument, but the table is 48" wide, and you move 36" total from your edge. This leaves you 12" from his table edge aka outside of his deployment zone. It doesn't really matter what the tape measure says, rules wise, it is illegal.
It does NOT leave you outside of his deployment zone. It leaves you toeing the line of his deployment zone, which is legal. His deployment zone is wholly within 12 inches of his table edge. If I move 36 inches from my table edge directly towards his table edge and stop at 12" from his edge, I'm within 12 inches of his edge. Period. If a model is EXACTLY 12 inches away from another model, and shooting with a weapon that has a range of EXACTLY 12 inches, can he shoot that model? All of you saying that I don't get Behind Enemy Lines are saying I can't shoot that model.
How do you know the board is 48.0000000000000001 inches across? It could just as easily be 47.99999999999 inches across. Let's not lob cheating for units of measurement that can't be seen with the naked eye.
Can the deploying player place a model on that 12 inch line? If an opposing model is also on that 12 inch line would they be in base to base contact? (forgetting for a moment the need to charge to get within 1")
deviantduck wrote: Upto and against the 12" line does not equal within 12".
Correct. The example says it does, but the rule itself requires "any part of the base" to be within 12".
If you could measure 36" perfectly from your table edge, no part of your base should be within 12" of your opponents edge. (Assuming the table is exactly 48" across)
That's inside 12 inches. They have defined within X inches of Y however to mean X inches away from Y. With a 48 inch board, and an exactly straight perpendicular line you're mathematically within 12 inches, but not inside 12 inches.
Neither, and both.. Mostly the general principle of measuring in this game- If the front edge of my base is 1 inch away from the front edge of your base, we are within 1 inch. Ergo if the front of my base is 12 inches away from your table edge, I'm within 12 inches of your table edge.
If the nearest edge of my base to your base is 12 inches away, I can rapid fire not? So I must be within 12 inches.
Interchange front and nearest edge if that works better.
Breton wrote: Neither, and both.. Mostly the general principle of measuring in this game- If the front edge of my base is 1 inch away from the front edge of your base, we are within 1 inch. Ergo if the front of my base is 12 inches away from your table edge, I'm within 12 inches of your table edge.
If the nearest edge of my base to your base is 12 inches away, I can rapid fire not? So I must be within 12 inches.
Interchange front and nearest edge if that works better.
If you mean the general principles as written in the rule book, then no, they are not within 12 because they are not actually within 12"
That isn't how the base defines within. "within" is the distance from the closest point of your model to the closest point of whatever you are measuring to. "completely within" is the furthest point of whatever you are measuring to to the closest point of your model.
If your model is exactly at the 12" line and you want to claim that it is in, then you're a douche. You have to win every time you play. Congratulations you won and now go pat yourself on the back.
Rule 1, motyak
"Upto and against the 12" line does not equal within 12" ". I agree.
greytalon666 wrote: That isn't how the base defines within. "within" is the distance from the closest point of your model to the closest point of whatever you are measuring to. "completely within" is the furthest point of whatever you are measuring to to the closest point of your model.
It has nothing to do with "within" vs. "completely within". The point here is that no part of the model is within 12" unless you have made an illegal move. And yes, people are entirely justified in being unhappy with you if you try to claim the benefits of an obvious measurement error.
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greytalon666 wrote: Even if someone COULDN'T measure EXACTLY 36" EXACTLY perpendicular to their own board edge (and if you enough of an donkey-cave to make me pull out protractors and steel squares to get exactness, instead of being cool like most people and going "oh, your intent is xxxxx? Okay, cool, I understand what you are doing, go ahead and proceed, I'm going to pack up and not play against YOU), the rules allow for it, and stating intent goes a long way towards making the game fun and enjoyable for both parties.
And I could just as easily say that you need to "be cool" by not trying to claim the benefits of measurement errors. If you know that the only way a situation can happen is if someone measured inaccurately then the "be cool" thing to do is to say "well, the tape measure says I'm within 12" but that's obviously impossible so I guess I moved a little too far when I brought that model on from reserve" and then nudge it back a bit until it's just outside 12".
The rules don't mention anything about atom-widths. They just say you can deploy anywhere entirely within your deployment zone, and there are EXACTLY 24 inches between deployment zones.
They don't mention atom-widths because they don't need to. The rules say 12"/24"/etc, not 23.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999". All of those distances are exact, and that includes precision down to atom-width level (in fact it requires precision down to mathematical perfection). Obviously no player is capable of being that precise when playing the game, but that doesn't mean that you get to claim the benefits of your sloppy measuring when you know that you've made a mistake.
there are 609,600,000 nanometers in 24 inches. I don't see anywhere in the book that it says 609,600,001 nanometers between deployment zones. I'd accept "more than 24" apart", if you could point out where it says "24 inches and 1 atom width" "1 nanometer more than 24 inches" or even "more than 24 inches apart".
It says "at least 24" apart" (technically, at least 12" from the center line). Since it is not possible to measure exactly 24.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000" with perfect precision there are two choices: slightly under or slightly over 24". Slightly under (the only way you can "succeed") is illegal, slightly over makes it impossible to do what you're trying to do.
Show me how with a standard tape measure, you are measuring atoms. Better yet, show me how you are measuring tenths of a nano-meter with your naked eye.
I'm not, and that's the whole point. You can't measure precisely enough to get exact distances, so you have to err on the side of making legal deployments/moves/etc. And that means your turn-1 charge is impossible, your flyer can't reach your opponent's deployment zone from reserve, etc.
greytalon666 wrote: That isn't how the base defines within. "within" is the distance from the closest point of your model to the closest point of whatever you are measuring to. "completely within" is the furthest point of whatever you are measuring to to the closest point of your model.
It has nothing to do with "within" vs. "completely within". The point here is that no part of the model is within 12" unless you have made an illegal move. And yes, people are entirely justified in being unhappy with you if you try to claim the benefits of an obvious measurement error.
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greytalon666 wrote: Even if someone COULDN'T measure EXACTLY 36" EXACTLY perpendicular to their own board edge (and if you enough of an donkey-cave to make me pull out protractors and steel squares to get exactness, instead of being cool like most people and going "oh, your intent is xxxxx? Okay, cool, I understand what you are doing, go ahead and proceed, I'm going to pack up and not play against YOU), the rules allow for it, and stating intent goes a long way towards making the game fun and enjoyable for both parties.
And I could just as easily say that you need to "be cool" by not trying to claim the benefits of measurement errors. If you know that the only way a situation can happen is if someone measured inaccurately then the "be cool" thing to do is to say "well, the tape measure says I'm within 12" but that's obviously impossible so I guess I moved a little too far when I brought that model on from reserve" and then nudge it back a bit until it's just outside 12".
The rules don't mention anything about atom-widths. They just say you can deploy anywhere entirely within your deployment zone, and there are EXACTLY 24 inches between deployment zones.
They don't mention atom-widths because they don't need to. The rules say 12"/24"/etc, not 23.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999". All of those distances are exact, and that includes precision down to atom-width level (in fact it requires precision down to mathematical perfection). Obviously no player is capable of being that precise when playing the game, but that doesn't mean that you get to claim the benefits of your sloppy measuring when you know that you've made a mistake.
there are 609,600,000 nanometers in 24 inches. I don't see anywhere in the book that it says 609,600,001 nanometers between deployment zones. I'd accept "more than 24" apart", if you could point out where it says "24 inches and 1 atom width" "1 nanometer more than 24 inches" or even "more than 24 inches apart".
It says "at least 24" apart" (technically, at least 12" from the center line). Since it is not possible to measure exactly 24.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000" with perfect precision there are two choices: slightly under or slightly over 24". Slightly under (the only way you can "succeed") is illegal, slightly over makes it impossible to do what you're trying to do.
Show me how with a standard tape measure, you are measuring atoms. Better yet, show me how you are measuring tenths of a nano-meter with your naked eye.
I'm not, and that's the whole point. You can't measure precisely enough to get exact distances, so you have to err on the side of making legal deployments/moves/etc. And that means your turn-1 charge is impossible, your flyer can't reach your opponent's deployment zone from reserve, etc.
So basically, what you are saying is: "Yes, it's legal for you to do that, if you get the measurements exact. BUT, it's impossible to measure exactly, even by accident, so you can never get it." Awesome.
Please edit your posts saying that you can score if precise in measuring, and refrain from repeating your silly "no one can measure exactly, and this game requires precise measurements, so everyone is cheating" arguments. They don't bring anything to the table.
Technically it is possible, just so statistically unlikely it may as well be impossible.
However that means it is possible, so one could turn around and say "show I'm not" if you said they're not because they can't measure exactly. Of course, you can't show they aren't right for the same reason they can't show they are right, so either some one backs down or the Most Important Rule comes into effects and they have a 50% chance of being deemed correct.
When you arrive from reserves, you're not ON the table, you're against the table. If you move 36", you're not on the line of the enemy deployment zone but you're standing against it.
insaniak wrote: Your example is deceptive, since it is reliant on a line having a thickness.
If your table is 48" across, and your model moves 36" across it, there is 12" remaining between your model and the opposite edge of the table.
This, exactly, is what it comes down to. Math.
If you state that you're going to move your models 36'' straight across, measurement errors don't really matter. You stated your intent - which was a valid option - so even if you're not precise enough, your model should count as being 48''-36'' away from the opposite edge of the table.
The next question one could ask then is whether or not being exactly 12'' away from something is counted as being within 12'' - and the answer to that is clearly YES based on the BRB "Measuring Distances" chapter and especially the examples presented there. "Distance between A and B is C inches" is the same as saying "A is within C inches of B". Same applies to the "wholly within" - "furthest point of A is C inches away from B" is equal to "A is wholly within C inches of B"
But you're not starting your move on that 36th inch, you're starting behind it because the model is considered to be off the table.
If your table is 48" across, and your model starts off the table and moves 36" it means that there is more than 12" left. Your model had to at least start on 48.0000000...01 inches from the enemy table edge, so at least 36.000...01 inches away from the enemy deployment zone. It's not 36" TO the enemy deployment zone, there's 36" IN BETWEEN you and the deployment zone.
It's not about measuring correctly or not. Even if you measured it correctly down to 1 atom, you'd still be 1 atom away from the enemy deployment zone.
I am not so narrow-minded as to tell someone they can't do something because they are not physically capable of measuring it correctly because of human limitations.
However, if your table is 48" long, you cannot get in the enemy deployment zones with a 36" move if the unit is arriving from reserves, not even in theory.
DaPino wrote: But you're not starting your move on that 36th inch, you're starting behind it because the model is considered to be off the table.
If your table is 48" across, and your model starts off the table and moves 36" it means that there is more than 12" left. Your model had to at least start on 48.0000000...01 inches from the enemy table edge, so at least 36.000...01 inches away from the enemy deployment zone. It's not 36" TO the enemy deployment zone, there's 36" IN BETWEEN you and the deployment zone.
It's not about measuring correctly or not. Even if you measured it correctly down to 1 atom, you'd still be 1 atom away from the enemy deployment zone.
I am not so narrow-minded as to tell someone they can't do something because they are not physically capable of measuring it correctly because of human limitations.
However, if your table is 48" long, you cannot get in the enemy deployment zones with a 36" move if the unit is arriving from reserves, not even in theory.
You're off the table. You then start at exactly 0 and move 36 inches. On a table of 48 inches, you're now 12 inches away from the other side. That's HIWPI at least - since i quite frankly don't give a feth about atoms and I assume the rule authors didn't either.
Mathematically speaking:
If you start (are at the beggining) OFF the table, you are asymptotically behind the 0" line. Being in the 0" line would mean you are ON the table.
So, if you move 36" you are asymptotically behind the 36" line (measuring from your table side). So you are asymptotically not in the enemy deployment zone.
So you can't claim it even if you measure it PERFECTLY.
jokerkd wrote: The rules state that part of your base must be within. Its only the example given that says otherwise.
Am i missing something?
The example - which is still part of the BRB - explains that the wording for "within" is equal to "distance between both models".
"The distance between the Space Marine unit and the hull of the Ork Trukk is 5 inches. We normally say that the Trukk is within 5" of the Space Marine unit."
The same applies to both other examples - They're just lacking the "we normally say" part, but make the same statements regardless: distance between is 3 inches = within 3 inches; Distance from base to other most distant point is 8 inches = within 8 inches.
The only line that could be interpreted otherwise comes before those clarifying examples and is an example of it's own:
"For example, if any part of a model’s base is within 6" of the base of an enemy model, the two models are said to be within 6" of each other."
And this line does NOT exclude the other examples or even contradict them. And once you take into consideration that the rules on the same page continue with basically saying "If something is 5 inches appart, we call that within 5 inches" it's not even different. "any part of a models base is within 6 inches" then INCLUDES the situation where the distance between both models is exactly 6 inches.
BRB wrote:Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just OFF the board in the previous turn.
If it is not on the table, it's not on the 0" line. I'ts behind it, so it ends the turbo-boost before the enemy deployment zone.
BRB wrote:Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just OFF the board in the previous turn.
If it is not on the table, it's not on the 0" line. I'ts behind it, so it ends the turbo-boost before the enemy deployment zone.
There is no line.
Being at 0 is - at least in my opinion - "off" the table. hold a model at your imaginary line and let go, it will free-fall to the ground since it is not on the table. If it was "0.1" inch on the table it'd at least touch the table and THEN fall to the ground. This obviously requires a perfectly cut table.
For a better table example - imagine painting a line on the table all around it, making sure the distance between the opposing lines is 48 inches - NOT including the lines. Then, if you place something "off" that table, it would sit with the lid right on the inner side of that outlying line which is "off the table". Start measuring 36 inches from there and you will end up within 12 inches of the opposite table sides line.
BRB wrote:Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just OFF the board in the previous turn.
If it is not on the table, it's not on the 0" line. I'ts behind it, so it ends the turbo-boost before the enemy deployment zone.
This is incorrect. It is exactly at 0. 36 inches then puts it exactly at 12 inches from the other edge. Which is within 12 by rule.
BRB wrote:Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just OFF the board in the previous turn.
If it is not on the table, it's not on the 0" line. I'ts behind it, so it ends the turbo-boost before the enemy deployment zone.
There is no line.
Being at 0 is - at least in my opinion - "off" the table. hold a model at your imaginary line and let go, it will free-fall to the ground since it is not on the table. If it was "0.1" inch on the table it'd at least touch the table and THEN fall to the ground. This obviously requires a perfectly cut table.
As you said, if it will free-fall and not touching the table, it will require an infinitesimal to be ON the table, so it will be an infinitesimal away the """ 12" line """ that indicates the start of the enemy deployment zone.
Mathematically speaking:
If you start OFF the table, you are asymptotically behind the 0" line. Being in the 0" line would mean you are ON the table, you are on the very first atom that compose the table, the table START at 0, not at 0.000000000000[as many zero you want]0000000000000000000001
nekooni wrote: For a better table example - imagine painting a line on the table all around it, making sure the distance between the opposing lines is 48 inches - NOT including the lines. Then, if you place something "off" that table, it would sit with the lid right on the inner side of that outlying line which is "off the table". Start measuring 36 inches from there and you will end up within 12 inches of the opposite table sides line.
Exactly, it sits on the inner side of that outlying, it's not on 0", it's behind it.
As you said, if it will free-fall and not touching the table, it will require an infinitesimal to be ON the table, so it will be an infinitesimal away the """ 12" line """ that indicates the start of the enemy deployment zone.
Mathematically speaking:
If you start OFF the table, you are asymptotically behind the 0" line. Being in the 0" line would mean you are ON the table, you are on the very first atom that compose the table, the table START at 0, not at 0.000000000000[as many zero you want]0000000000000000000001
Exactly, it sits on the inner side of that outlying, it's not on 0", it's behind it.
So what you're saying is that "0" is "infinitesimal" bigger than "nothing"?
If you could perfectly measure this, then it'd be acceptable. If you are exactly 12" away from one table edge on a 4' table, then by definition you are also exactly 36" away from the other edge. In which case, if you communicated with an opponent that this is your intent, it would be unfair for them not to let you. If your argument is that it is not physically possible, then would you deny a disabled person the right to place their models in the positions they wished? After all, they may not be physically able enough to place as per their intentions. Their communication to you of their intention should qualify and be allowed. A limitation of the person is not a valid excuse to deny a player something that they are allowed to do, especially in a game.
Couldn't you just say to your opponent: 'This model moved from reserves in a line perpendicular to my edge of the board' so that the 24" flat out move would touch the opponents deployment zone?
Or do we all:
A) Have to precisely measure (in which case I need to fetch me laser pointer out)?
B) Have TFG's for opponents who will make us measure?
C) Become TFG's for saying stuff like this in game?
I'm not actually sure when this would come into affect, all reserves come in on T4 and the game only ends on T5 onwards, earlier if someone gets tabled.
As you said, if it will free-fall and not touching the table, it will require an infinitesimal to be ON the table, so it will be an infinitesimal away the """ 12" line """ that indicates the start of the enemy deployment zone.
Mathematically speaking:
If you start OFF the table, you are asymptotically behind the 0" line. Being in the 0" line would mean you are ON the table, you are on the very first atom that compose the table, the table START at 0, not at 0.000000000000[as many zero you want]0000000000000000000001
Exactly, it sits on the inner side of that outlying, it's not on 0", it's behind it.
So what you're saying is that "0" is "infinitesimal" bigger than "nothing"?
No, I'm saying that the movement starts at =0"-infinitesimal" .
Being 0" the start of the table and 48" the end of the table, the unit starts at negative infinitesimal" behind 0, OFF the table.
The table starts at 0", so the model can´t be at 0" otherwise it would be ON the table.
Againt, it's reduce to the discussion that you said that 0" is OFF the table... I said 0" is ON the table... and we probably won't change our opinions respect that, less to agree
But as I see it, the point 0 it's the starting point of anything and it forms part of that thing. For example a video, it starts at second 0, not 0:01, 0 is part of the video.
If something is 48" long, it starts at 0" including it and ends at 48" including it, anything before 0" and after 48" are excluded. So, if the model starts off the table, outside the table, excluded from the table, it can't be on 0", so it can't be at 36" at the end.
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Frozocrone wrote: I'm not actually sure when this would come into affect, all reserves come in on T4 and the game only ends on T5 onwards, earlier if someone gets tabled.
They are talking about the Tactical Objective, so it's granted at the end of his turn (being 3, 4 or whichever)
No, I'm saying that the movement starts at =0"-infinitesimal" .
Being 0" the start of the table and 48" the end of the table, the unit starts at negative infinitesimal" behind 0, OFF the table.
The table starts at 0", so the model can´t be at 0" otherwise it would be ON the table.
Againt, it's reduce to the discussion that you said that 0" is OFF the table... I said 0" is ON the table... and we probably won't change our opinions respect that, less to agree
Glass Half Full Glass Empty aside, you're both looking at it wrong. The model can start 6 feet in the other room. you don't start measuring it's movement until it hits zero, ergo it could start 5 inches off the table, it could start 50, but it moves 6/12/etc inches on the table.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just OFF the board in the previous turn.
We discuss if that OFF the board is zero or not.
We discuss if the 0" is the first step or the starting step.
Wallur wrote: Breton, that is what we are discussing.
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just OFF the board in the previous turn.
We discuss if that OFF the board is zero or not.
We discuss if the 0" is the first step or the starting step.
Emphasis mine - why I think my interpretation is correct. the invisible zero-width line that is the edge of the table is where you start measuring. Ergo, 0 inch is where you start
If you move on from the table at 0" and go exactly 36" to the opponents edge. you would be exactly 12" Away from their table edge no? you need to be within it. How can you possibly argue that?
Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table (your call for Yes), as if they had been positioned just OFF the board in the previous turn. (My call for no)
They tried to make it clear so hard that they shrouded it...
RAI you may be right.
Next time use a slightly bigger/smaller table to avoid this problem. (?)
DaPino wrote: But you're not starting your move on that 36th inch, you're starting behind it because the model is considered to be off the table.
If your table is 48" across, and your model starts off the table and moves 36" it means that there is more than 12" left. Your model had to at least start on 48.0000000...01 inches from the enemy table edge, so at least 36.000...01 inches away from the enemy deployment zone. It's not 36" TO the enemy deployment zone, there's 36" IN BETWEEN you and the deployment zone.
It's not about measuring correctly or not. Even if you measured it correctly down to 1 atom, you'd still be 1 atom away from the enemy deployment zone.
I am not so narrow-minded as to tell someone they can't do something because they are not physically capable of measuring it correctly because of human limitations.
However, if your table is 48" long, you cannot get in the enemy deployment zones with a 36" move if the unit is arriving from reserves, not even in theory.
Start measuring at the EDGE of the table, not off the table. Basically, you can assume your model is off the board, with the front edge of what you are measuring just touching the edge of the board. You know, like how everyone measures their flyers coming in?
Desubot wrote: If you move on from the table at 0" and go exactly 36" to the opponents edge. you would be exactly 12" Away from their table edge no?
you need to be within it.
How can you possibly argue that?
Because within in doesn't mean physically within. It means the closest point of my base to whatever I'm measuring to is X inches away or less. If something is EXACTLY 12 inches away from the closest point of my model, then I'm WITHIN 12 inches of it.
Wallur wrote: Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table (your call for Yes), as if they had been positioned just OFF the board in the previous turn. (My call for no)
They tried to make it clear so hard that they shrouded it...
RAI you may be right.
Next time use a slightly bigger/smaller table to avoid this problem. (?)
RAW, we're right. ---- When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table There is NOTHING ambiguous about that. Start measuring from your table edge. Not just off your table edge.
WHEN have you EVER been told to measure distances from the BACK of a model to the FRONT of a model? That's the only way being just off the table could make you lack in distances. I don't know about any of you, but I was told that if you measure from front to back, you are cheating. If you measure from back to front, you are cutting yourself distance... Not cheating, but making things harder for yourself.
Desubot wrote: If you move on from the table at 0" and go exactly 36" to the opponents edge. you would be exactly 12" Away from their table edge no?
you need to be within it.
How can you possibly argue that?
Because within in doesn't mean physically within. It means the closest point of my base to whatever I'm measuring to is X inches away or less. If something is EXACTLY 12 inches away from the closest point of my model, then I'm WITHIN 12 inches of it.
Desubot wrote: If you move on from the table at 0" and go exactly 36" to the opponents edge. you would be exactly 12" Away from their table edge no?
you need to be within it.
How can you possibly argue that?
Because within in doesn't mean physically within. It means the closest point of my base to whatever I'm measuring to is X inches away or less. If something is EXACTLY 12 inches away from the closest point of my model, then I'm WITHIN 12 inches of it.
You wouldn't be with in 12 because you are AT 12
These are two pretty important distinctions.
Not according to measuring distances in the BRB. from page ten. There are exactly FIVE inches between the closest point of a marine and the closest point of a truck. Those models are WITHIN five inches of each other. NOT *AT, but NOT WITHIN* five inches. WITHIN five inches.
Desubot wrote: If you move on from the table at 0" and go exactly 36" to the opponents edge. you would be exactly 12" Away from their table edge no?
you need to be within it.
How can you possibly argue that?
Because within in doesn't mean physically within. It means the closest point of my base to whatever I'm measuring to is X inches away or less. If something is EXACTLY 12 inches away from the closest point of my model, then I'm WITHIN 12 inches of it.
You wouldn't be with in 12 because you are AT 12
These are two pretty important distinctions.
Not according to measuring distances in the BRB. from page ten. There are exactly FIVE inches between the closest point of a marine and the closest point of a truck. Those models are WITHIN five inches of each other. NOT *AT, but NOT WITHIN* five inches. WITHIN five inches.
Well then citing the book, it seems to be kosher if not entirely slowed since you are not "in" 12" though you are citing rules for measuring between models.
Desubot wrote: If you move on from the table at 0" and go exactly 36" to the opponents edge. you would be exactly 12" Away from their table edge no?
you need to be within it.
How can you possibly argue that?
Because within in doesn't mean physically within. It means the closest point of my base to whatever I'm measuring to is X inches away or less. If something is EXACTLY 12 inches away from the closest point of my model, then I'm WITHIN 12 inches of it.
You wouldn't be with in 12 because you are AT 12
These are two pretty important distinctions.
Not according to measuring distances in the BRB. from page ten. There are exactly FIVE inches between the closest point of a marine and the closest point of a truck. Those models are WITHIN five inches of each other. NOT *AT, but NOT WITHIN* five inches. WITHIN five inches.
Well then citing the book, it seems to be kosher if not entirely slowed since you are not "in" 12" though you are citing rules for measuring between models.
Can you cite the rules for measuring distances? Oh, that's right, its in the same chapter, and they use models for their example, because that's what people are measuring 99.99999999999% of the time.
Desubot wrote: Im saying you are mostly correct from GWs point of view no need to get snippy.
BTW apparently people ARE measuring to things that are not models. ie this thread.
Which is why I didn't say ALL THE TIME. Just emphasized MOST of the time. Does it make sense for GW to go "this is how you measure to models. Let me give you five examples. Now, let me explain and give you another five examples on measuring to the board edge (which is the exact same thing), and now let me explain and show you how to measure to objectives (exact same thing)" etc etc...
It doesn't. If they did that with EVERYTHING the rulebook would be another 20 pages long.
Also, I'm not *mostly* correct. I'm 100% correct. Mostly correct would apply that there is written ambiguity in the rules... There isn't any at all.
Desubot wrote: If you move on from the table at 0" and go exactly 36" to the opponents edge. you would be exactly 12" Away from their table edge no?
you need to be within it.
How can you possibly argue that?
Because within in doesn't mean physically within. It means the closest point of my base to whatever I'm measuring to is X inches away or less. If something is EXACTLY 12 inches away from the closest point of my model, then I'm WITHIN 12 inches of it.
You wouldn't be with in 12 because you are AT 12
These are two pretty important distinctions.
Not according to measuring distances in the BRB. from page ten. There are exactly FIVE inches between the closest point of a marine and the closest point of a truck. Those models are WITHIN five inches of each other. NOT *AT, but NOT WITHIN* five inches. WITHIN five inches.
Well then citing the book, it seems to be kosher if not entirely slowed since you are not "in" 12" though you are citing rules for measuring between models.
Really? Those are the rules for measuring DISTANCES. At least put in the bare minimum of effort of going back to where these rules were already quoted if you can't be arsed to check your BRB. Seriously, this is the rules sub forum, maybe you should CHECK SAID fething rules first before making baseless claims - especially if people already researched those. Back under your bridge, seriously.
@Wallur I still don't see it - it says "from the edge of the table" - which is clear - and then simply explains why you do that - "as if they had been positioned just off the board". I think what they wanted to prevent is that you place the model "50% on the table"- so they clarify that you just measure from the edge, not from wherever you want - e.g. put a 3 inch base 2.9 inches on the table and then start measuring from the front.I'd say that would be the obvious abuse which they wanted to prevent, not start a discussion about atoms.
*edit*
Well, just to end this from my perspective - HIWPI is "start measuring at the edge, if you move 36 inches you're now 12 inches away from the other border" based on
a) this pretty obviously being the RAI,
b) it being supported by the RAW and
c) even if you take the "0.00...1 inches" argument as equal, it's the interpretation that is much more intuitive to use and explain - imho.
When I entered my units from reserve I measured from the edge, like it says... And the only moment that would actually matter is if the game is tight and each single point counts to determine a draw, loss or victory, otherwise I'd just roll.
If it were a tournament, there would be an authority that will have the last word.
Since I play friendly games and we use whatever we have as a table, lately half ping-pong table that is 60" long and moving 18"+24" wont be happening.
Wallur wrote: When I entered my units from reserve I measured from the edge, like it says... And the only moment that would actually matter is if the game is tight and each single point counts to determine a draw, loss or victory, otherwise I'd just roll.
If it were a tournament, there would be an authority that will have the last word.
Since I play friendly games and we use whatever we have as a table, lately half ping-pong table that is 60" long and moving 18"+24" wont be happening.
Roll off for something that is covered in the rules, every SINGLE GAME? You say you just play friendly games, but really you are TFG.
Well then citing the book, it seems to be kosher if not entirely slowed since you are not "in" 12" though you are citing rules for measuring between models.
It's probably worth pointing out that this isn't just some definition that GW have created out of whole cloth.
'Within' when used in reference to measuring distances, means 'not further away than' rather than 'less then'.
So 'within 12"' means 'not more than 12" away' rather than 'less than 12" away'.
The problem isn't the rules. It's that a large number of people use the word 'within' incorrectly.
Wallur wrote: When I entered my units from reserve I measured from the edge, like it says... And the only moment that would actually matter is if the game is tight and each single point counts to determine a draw, loss or victory, otherwise I'd just roll.
If it were a tournament, there would be an authority that will have the last word.
Since I play friendly games and we use whatever we have as a table, lately half ping-pong table that is 60" long and moving 18"+24" wont be happening.
Roll off for something that is covered in the rules, every SINGLE GAME? You say you just play friendly games, but really you are TFG.
It wouldn't be EVERYSINGLE GAME, only when this discussion will came up and it's relevant for the result, if points are 7 to 3, 1 more or less point would not be of importance, I would give it if that means we can carry on playing.
And if it is covered in the rules, why is this thread reaching 3 pages? it doesn't seem to be very clear.
Well then citing the book, it seems to be kosher if not entirely slowed since you are not "in" 12" though you are citing rules for measuring between models.
It's probably worth pointing out that this isn't just some definition that GW have created out of whole cloth.
'Within' when used in reference to measuring distances, means 'not further away than' rather than 'less then'.
So 'within 12"' means 'not more than 12" away' rather than 'less than 12" away'.
The problem isn't the rules. It's that a large number of people use the word 'within' incorrectly.
Iv always seen it as meaning with "in" as in inside of 12"
Im not sure if its regional or some sort of technical nuances but iv yet to find it as not more than 12. (honestly)
Wallur wrote: When I entered my units from reserve I measured from the edge, like it says... And the only moment that would actually matter is if the game is tight and each single point counts to determine a draw, loss or victory, otherwise I'd just roll.
If it were a tournament, there would be an authority that will have the last word.
Since I play friendly games and we use whatever we have as a table, lately half ping-pong table that is 60" long and moving 18"+24" wont be happening.
Roll off for something that is covered in the rules, every SINGLE GAME? You say you just play friendly games, but really you are TFG.
It wouldn't be EVERYSINGLE GAME, only when this discussion will came up and it's relevant for the result, if points are 7 to 3, 1 more or less point would not be of importance, I would give it if that means we can carry on playing.
And if it is covered in the rules, why is this thread reaching 3 pages? it doesn't seem to be very clear.
It's reaching three pages because people with "english degrees" keep arguing what a word within a word means, and try to layer it so that things don't work the way they logically, and as written, should.
Iv always seen it as meaning with "in" as in inside of 12"
Im not sure if its regional or some sort of technical nuances but iv yet to find it as not more than 12. (honestly)
Iv always seen it as meaning with "in" as in inside of 12"
Im not sure if its regional or some sort of technical nuances but iv yet to find it as not more than 12. (honestly)
Breton wrote: Neither, and both.. Mostly the general principle of measuring in this game- If the front edge of my base is 1 inch away from the front edge of your base, we are within 1 inch. Ergo if the front of my base is 12 inches away from your table edge, I'm within 12 inches of your table edge.
If the nearest edge of my base to your base is 12 inches away, I can rapid fire not? So I must be within 12 inches.
Interchange front and nearest edge if that works better.
If you mean the general principles as written in the rule book, then no, they are not within 12 because they are not actually within 12"
Which general principle in the book are you basing that on? The general principle I based mine on says if two points nearest edges are X inches apart, they're within X inches.
jokerkd wrote: An example is not a rule. The rule says they must be within.
It is only now that insaniak has actually pointed out the relative (and relatively unkown) definition of "within" that this argument can be settled
An example is a rule, it mentions this definition in text as well as examples, and it's been in the rulebooks for as long as I can remember? humorously I'm now curious and I'll check my 2nd Ed books on my next day off.
In my experience I've not come across a player that played where max distance = within. If you're exactly 36" away, you're out of range my heavy bolter. if you're model's base touches the end edge of my tape measure, you're out of range. When you're model is 35.9 inches away, i'll roll some dice.
deviantduck wrote: In my experience I've not come across a player that played where max distance = within. If you're exactly 36" away, you're out of range my heavy bolter. if you're model's base touches the end edge of my tape measure, you're out of range. When you're model is 35.9 inches away, i'll roll some dice.
They range of a heavy bolter IS 36". Not 35.9", not 35.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 inches. 36". THIRTY SIX inches. THIRTY SIX INCHES.
If they meant the range to be 35.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 inches, they would've written
deviantduck wrote: I guess i view it too much like tennis. It's great if the ball goes up to the net, but you gotta go over it.
But that's exactly the issue. The ball getting exactly to the net is still in your side of the court.
Likewise, a model at any distance up to exactly 12" away from the board edge is within 12" of that edge.
Following that reasoning, the ball end at 36" and is on your side it's not on the other side that is the deployment zone.
But I will give it is in the deployment.
deviantduck wrote: I guess i view it too much like tennis. It's great if the ball goes up to the net, but you gotta go over it.
But that's exactly the issue. The ball getting exactly to the net is still in your side of the court.
Likewise, a model at any distance up to exactly 12" away from the board edge is within 12" of that edge.
Following that reasoning, the ball end at 36" and is on your side it's not on the other side that is the deployment zone.
But I will give it is in the deployment.
There is no deployment zone line that has any sort of thickness to it. Your deployment zone for dawn of war is the first 12" of your table edge going directly towards your opponents table edge. There is no line that is drawn that says "this is the end of your deployment zone". Your deployment zone just ends.
The way I see it is impossible given the movement speed of your unit. There is an invisible line that actually is not included in your movement. It is where the 12 inch deployment zone starts and where your possible movement ends. The way I see it unless you can move 36.00000001 inches you CAN NOT reach the deployment zone. If you were trying to score points against me with this I would argue it to the end.
It starts to make more sense when you increase the bikes movement to 48" and change the parameters of the question. What if the rule stipulated that you need to move off the table. with 48" movement it should be impossible but you can still touch the edge. Never at any point where you off the table though.
Xenomancers wrote: The way I see it is impossible given the movement speed of your unit. There is an invisible line that actually is not included in your movement. It is where the 12 inch deployment zone starts and where your possible movement ends. The way I see it unless you can move 36.00000001 inches you CAN NOT reach the deployment zone. If you were trying to score points against me with this I would argue it to the end.
It starts to make more sense when you increase the bikes movement to 48" and change the parameters of the question. What if the rule stipulated that you need to move off the table. with 48" movement it should be impossible but you can still touch the edge. Never at any point where you off the table though.
again,there is no deployment zone line. saying your deployment zone is 12 inches in from your own board edge is the exact same thing as saying your deployment zone is the remaining part of the table that is at least 36 inches directly away from your opponent's table edge.
Or you fluke it and get it perfectly right.
However unlikely, that is still a possibility.
And you can't prove I didn't fluke it as much as I can't prove I did fluke it.
So at best (if you want to pull that) I'm within 12" on a 4+.
In the real world there comes a point where additional precision isn't required because we can't measure it.
insaniak wrote: So if you start 48" away, and you move 36", then you're now 12" away.
However, in the real world, where we can't measure with perfect mathematical precision, there are two possible outcomes:
1) You start 48" away, move 35.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999", and are more than 12" away.
or
2) You start 48" away, move 36.00000000000000000000000000000000000000001", and are less than 12" away but have made an illegal move.
at that level of game you are just going to have to call out theoretical bullgak.
"hey bob you cant possible charge with those jump guys because you have to deploy "Further" than 12" away from the center so the distance inbetween is always more than 24"" kinda thing (I dont remember if the more than 12" away from center is still in)
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Or you fluke it and get it perfectly right.
However unlikely, that is still a possibility.
It possible. However, is overwhelmingly more likely that I will win every single lottery ever held for the rest of human history. Without buying any tickets.
So at best (if you want to pull that) I'm within 12" on a 4+.
No, we don't use the "I get to cheat on a 4+" rule.
In the real world there comes a point where additional precision isn't required because we can't measure it.
And there's a simple solution to this problem: if you know that you can only "succeed" because of the limits of your measuring ability then you accept that success is not possible. You just say "well, the ruler seems to say that we're within 12", but that's not possible so I must have accidentally nudged the model a bit too close" and move the model back just outside of 12".
No, we don't use the "I get to cheat on a 4+" rule
Part of me hopes you never have to play someone who throws around the cheating accusation at opponents the way you seem to. Of course, the other part of me hopes you do.
Just out of curiosity how far short of 6" do you stop your normal moves? 5 5/16ths? 5 and a half? How much do you build in to prevent your own human hand from shaking that atom over 6" - and I assume you do this for each and every model you move, so you don't play a horde army?
Edit: And for the record, I'd say it's far more likely to get within that 12 inches due to a skill saw cut not being laser straight and square, or forgetting to allow for the width of the blade cut than winning every single lottery ever.
insaniak wrote: So if you start 48" away, and you move 36", then you're now 12" away.
However, in the real world, where we can't measure with perfect mathematical precision, there are two possible outcomes:
1) You start 48" away, move 35.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999", and are more than 12" away.
or
2) You start 48" away, move 36.00000000000000000000000000000000000000001", and are less than 12" away but have made an illegal move.
Actually, there's a third possible outcome, which is the one where both players accept that measuring with absolute precision is impossible, but assume that if a model started 36" away and moved 36", it's now 36" away from where it started.
If you're going to insist on considering that 00000000000000000000000000000000000000001", I'm going to insist that all of your models are moving illegally each time the universe is completely obliterated and rebuilt at a subatomic level in between one second and the next, and its going to wind up being a short game.
We can sit here and argue about mathematical precision until the cows come home, but at some point you have to stop and remind yourself that it's just a game of toy soldiers.
This is what makes 40k a tabletop game. The models must physically move to their positions. The model's location is the model's physical location, not it's theoretical location as if the game were a computer simulation.
If this were chess, you could clearly state that "my pawn moved exactly 2 squares ahead" and you would be right. But because this is a physical game, the model never moves 36 inches. It's silly to imply that all of the models on the table are in their physical positions, except for the magic, virtual jetbikes that always move perfectly.
To extend this, I could argue that if a model could theoretically be in cover, it is, notwithstanding the fact that I accidentally didn't move it perfectly and it is exposed. If I didn't move it perfectly, that's my bad. It gets shot.
If this were a virtual game we could play on a grid, where the models move and all cover/LOS isues could be calculated, not measured, but that's not the game we play. It's a physical game.
That's exactly the point, though. Because of the nature of the game, measuring everything with absolute precision is impossible. So for the sake of gameplay, most players allow for a certain amount of wiggle room.
There is no requirement to deliberately move less than you're entitled to in order to account for imprecise measurement. If your opponent is ok with you measuring 36" with your tape, moving the model to the indicated point and assuming that the model moved 36", then that's a legal move, even if the actual distance moved would turn out to be not exactly 36" if you break out the laser callipers and an electron microscope.
insaniak wrote: So if you start 48" away, and you move 36", then you're now 12" away.
However, in the real world, where we can't measure with perfect mathematical precision, there are two possible outcomes:
1) You start 48" away, move 35.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999", and are more than 12" away.
or
2) You start 48" away, move 36.00000000000000000000000000000000000000001", and are less than 12" away but have made an illegal move.
Is this your argument? Really? After this whole "within isn't within" bs and imaginary lines that have a thickness and everything, THIS is your fething argument? Isn't that kind of embarrassing, having to rely on "I only play with perfect mathematical precision" aka "being TFG"? Good luck with that opinion at one of those imperfect physical tables.
This is why I like the range bands in Dystopian Wars(1"-8", 8.0000001" - 16", etc....). Takes this argument out and makes it moot. 12" is 12. Not more, not less. Measure properly... Easy solution.
If the table is 48", and you're starting of the table, then you're going to have to move more than 48" to get off the table.
But that opposite edge of the table is within 48". That's why you need to move more than 48" to get off the other side.
(Of course, that's ignoring the rule that moves you off the table as soon as you touch the board edge...)
For the 12" line to not be included in your movement, you're giving that line a thickness. Lines don't have a thickness.
48 - 36 is 12.
So if you start 48" away, and you move 36", then you're now 12" away.
We are not giving the line thickness,
So, no thickness, Imaginary lines just separate areas, Crossing the imaginary no thickness line change you from a zone to the other
Since the 12" line separates deployment zone from not deployment zone and the 0" line separates OFF the table zone from ON the table zone. And since you CAN'T BE on the table zone side of the 0" line means you CAN'T END on the on the deployment zone side of the 12" (36" from the other side)
Since you start OFF THE TABLE, you end OFF THE DEPLOYMENT ZONE, measure it how exactly you want.
BRB on Deployment Zone wrote:We’ve found that 12" away from the centre line works best
Since you have to deploy 12" away form the centre, you can't be 12" from the centre, the deployment zone starts behing that line, so being at 36"/12" is not part of the deployment zone, and that is the furthest you can move.
EDIT: You are 12" away from his table edge, but that is not part of the deployment zone
If the table is 48", and you're starting of the table, then you're going to have to move more than 48" to get off the table.
But that opposite edge of the table is within 48". That's why you need to move more than 48" to get off the other side.
(Of course, that's ignoring the rule that moves you off the table as soon as you touch the board edge...)
For the 12" line to not be included in your movement, you're giving that line a thickness. Lines don't have a thickness.
48 - 36 is 12.
So if you start 48" away, and you move 36", then you're now 12" away.
We are not giving the line thickness,
So, no thickness, Imaginary lines just separate areas, Crossing the imaginary no thickness line change you from a zone to the other
Since the 12" line separates deployment zone from not deployment zone and the 0" line separates OFF the table zone from ON the table zone. And since you CAN'T BE on the table zone side of the 0" line means you CAN'T END on the on the deployment zone side of the 12" (36" from the other side)
Since you start OFF THE TABLE, you end OFF THE DEPLOYMENT ZONE, measure it how exactly you want.
BRB on Deployment Zone wrote:We’ve found that 12" away from the centre line works best
Since you have to deploy 12" away form the centre, you can't be 12" from the centre, the deployment zone starts behing that line, so being at 36"/12" is not part of the deployment zone, and that is the furthest you can move.
EDIT: You are 12" away from his table edge, but that is not part of the deployment zone
12" away from the center. Not MORE THAN 12" away from the center. Your interpretation requires additional words not in the rules to be correct.
greytalon666 wrote: 12" away from the center. Not MORE THAN 12" away from the center. Your interpretation requires additional words not in the rules to be correct
Ok, I'll give you that.
But I still stick to this part.
We are not giving the line thickness,
So, no thickness, Imaginary lines just separate areas, Crossing the imaginary no thickness line change you from a zone to the other
Since the 12" line separates deployment zone from not deployment zone and the 0" line separates OFF the table zone from ON the table zone. And since you CAN'T BE on the table zone side of the 0" line means you CAN'T END on the on the deployment zone side of the 12" (36" from the other side)
Since you start OFF THE TABLE, you end OFF THE DEPLOYMENT ZONE, measure it how exactly you want.
greytalon666 wrote: 12" away from the center. Not MORE THAN 12" away from the center. Your interpretation requires additional words not in the rules to be correct
Ok, I'll give you that.
But I still stick to this part.
We are not giving the line thickness,
So, no thickness, Imaginary lines just separate areas, Crossing the imaginary no thickness line change you from a zone to the other
Since the 12" line separates deployment zone from not deployment zone and the 0" line separates OFF the table zone from ON the table zone. And since you CAN'T BE on the table zone side of the 0" line means you CAN'T END on the on the deployment zone side of the 12" (36" from the other side)
Since you start OFF THE TABLE, you end OFF THE DEPLOYMENT ZONE, measure it how exactly you want.
But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.
greytalon666 wrote: 12" away from the center. Not MORE THAN 12" away from the center. Your interpretation requires additional words not in the rules to be correct
Ok, I'll give you that.
But I still stick to this part.
We are not giving the line thickness,
So, no thickness, Imaginary lines just separate areas, Crossing the imaginary no thickness line change you from a zone to the other
Since the 12" line separates deployment zone from not deployment zone and the 0" line separates OFF the table zone from ON the table zone. And since you CAN'T BE on the table zone side of the 0" line means you CAN'T END on the on the deployment zone side of the 12" (36" from the other side)
Since you start OFF THE TABLE, you end OFF THE DEPLOYMENT ZONE, measure it how exactly you want.
But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.
nekooni wrote: But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.
But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.
If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.
Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone
nekooni wrote: But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.
But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.
If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.
Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone
The model doesn't need to be in C, it only needs to be at the edge of C. You measure from the edge of A when deploying so it makes sense that your move would end at the edge of C.
Being at the edge of 12" from something means your 'within 12" of' that something.
nekooni wrote: But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.
But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.
If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.
Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone
The model doesn't need to be in C, it only needs to be at the edge of C. You measure from the edge of A when deploying so it makes sense that your move would end at the edge of C.
Being at the edge of 12" from something means your 'within 12" of' that something.
OK, just checked again, the Objective : "Score 1 Victory Point if one of your scoring units is within 12" of your opponent’s table edge at the end of your turn."
I just kept thinking that you have to be on the enemy deployment zone.
nekooni wrote: But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.
But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.
If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.
Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone
The model doesn't need to be in C, it only needs to be at the edge of C. You measure from the edge of A when deploying so it makes sense that your move would end at the edge of C.
Being at the edge of 12" from something means your 'within 12" of' that something.
OK, just checked again, the Objective : "Score 1 Victory Point if one of your scoring units is within 12" of your opponent’s table edge at the end of your turn."
I just kept thinking that you have to be on the enemy deployment zone.
Even if it said deployment zone, you would be good to go because of ho, and WHEN, you measure coming on from reserves.
nekooni wrote: But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.
But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.
If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.
Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone
The model doesn't need to be in C, it only needs to be at the edge of C. You measure from the edge of A when deploying so it makes sense that your move would end at the edge of C.
Being at the edge of 12" from something means your 'within 12" of' that something.
OK, just checked again, the Objective : "Score 1 Victory Point if one of your scoring units is within 12" of your opponent’s table edge at the end of your turn."
I just kept thinking that you have to be on the enemy deployment zone.
Even if it said deployment zone, you would be good to go because of ho, and WHEN, you measure coming on from reserves.
I would keep arguing that, but since it's not the point here, won't.
nekooni wrote: But you start measuring at the edge of the table, not off the table.
But the unit starts OFF, so it ends OFF, saying it ended ON, means it started ON or started OFF and moved slightly more than 36", Both againts rules.
If you start on A (not a single atom can be on B), and have to move across B zone to end on C, and if B is X" long and you move X", you can't completely cross B.
Being:
A- Off The Table (no matter how close to the table you are STILL OFF THE TABLE as said in the BRB)
B- Your Deployment Zone + Neutral Area
C- Enemy Deployment Zone
The model doesn't need to be in C, it only needs to be at the edge of C. You measure from the edge of A when deploying so it makes sense that your move would end at the edge of C.
Being at the edge of 12" from something means your 'within 12" of' that something.
OK, just checked again, the Objective : "Score 1 Victory Point if one of your scoring units is within 12" of your opponent’s table edge at the end of your turn."
I just kept thinking that you have to be on the enemy deployment zone.
Even if it said deployment zone, you would be good to go because of ho, and WHEN, you measure coming on from reserves.
I would keep arguing that, but since it's not the point here, won't.
Its silly how you agree you can be within 12" of their table edge but outside their deployment zone, despite both imaginary lines being in the same spot on the table.
Ok, tennis was a muddle comparison. How about basketball?
For a 3 pointer to count, you cant' be touching the 3 point line. So if i have to measure to the line/edge/boundary, hitting the line means i've gone too far. To me, there cant' be a location that is within 12" and not over 36". and exactly "on the line" violates both. So up against the deployment zone doesn't satisfy the VP condition, and within 12" is over 36".
deviantduck wrote: Ok, tennis was a muddle comparison. How about basketball?
For a 3 pointer to count, you cant' be touching the 3 point line. So if i have to measure to the line/edge/boundary, hitting the line means i've gone too far. To me, there cant' be a location that is within 12" and not over 36". and exactly "on the line" violates both. So up against the deployment zone doesn't satisfy the VP condition, and within 12" is over 36".
Well, good thing we aren't playing basketball and page ten specifies what counts as within.
deviantduck wrote: To me, there cant' be a location that is within 12" and not over 36".
Basic mathematics disagrees with you, however.
48-36=12.
Well... since the deployment zone line doesn't have a thickness, neither does the edge of the model's base. So how can the edge of the model be over the 36" mark, aka in the deployment zone, and under the 36" mark, aka not in the deployment zone, at the same time?
It's not. A line 36" away from one edge of a 48" board is 12" away from the opposite edge.
Because 48-36=12.
You don't have to be more than 36" away from the edge to be in the deployment zone, because the deployment zone extends out to 12"... and that 12" is the exact same place as 36" from the other side.
You seem to be hung up on the idea that to be within 12" of one edge, it has to be more than 36" from the other, which is just not mathematically true. 'Within 12"' includes exactly 12". A point within 12" of one table edge is also within 36" of the opposite table edge.
deviantduck wrote: To me, there cant' be a location that is within 12" and not over 36".
Basic mathematics disagrees with you, however.
48-36=12.
Well... since the deployment zone line doesn't have a thickness, neither does the edge of the model's base. So how can the edge of the model be over the 36" mark, aka in the deployment zone, and under the 36" mark, aka not in the deployment zone, at the same time?
The edge of the model does not have to be OVER the 36 inches mark, it is sufficient to be ON the mark.
"Over the 36 inches mark" as a range means "distance is less than 36 inches"
"outside the 36 inches mark" as a range means "distance is more than 36 inches"
"on the 36 inches mark" as a range means "distance is within 36 inches" or "distance is no more than 36 inches" or "distance is 36 inches or less" - whichever you prefer, they're all the same.
