Not to stir the pot, but I'm new to Daemonkin and was wondering if the community has come to an agreement regarding Daemonkin FMC changing flight modes the turn they DS?
RaW is a clear no. RaI is a clear no. RaDPWTTB is a yes (Rules as Daemonkin Players Want Them To Be). Apparently because they arrive before the movement phase just like all other reserves they are special snowflakes, because doing something at the same time as everyone else makes you different.
FlingitNow wrote: RaW is a clear no. RaI is a clear no. RaDPWTTB is a yes (Rules as Daemonkin Players Want Them To Be). Apparently because they arrive before the movement phase just like all other reserves they are special snowflakes, because doing something at the same time as everyone else makes you different.
Debates about rules like this would probably be resolved a lot more amicably if either side could resist the urge to, errr, fling sarcasm and insults at the other...
No, a consensus on this matter is wishful thinking I'm afraid. Yes, you can do it but be prepared for people trying to argue against it. To avoid drama it's the sort of thing best discussed with your opponent before the game.
Essentially the clear rules which are indisputable are that BT summoned FMCs and DS reserves happen at the same time (start of the turn). So if you allow normal FMCs to change flight mode when they DS then there is no reason BT summoned ones can't. However if you follow the rules for normal DSing FMCs then you have to follow them for BT summoned ones too. Obviously some Daemonkin players desperately want their codex to be stronger than it is so are happy to break the rules to gain an advantage. It is upto you whether you want to do that or not.
The deep strike rules clearly state they arrive in the movement phase, so I guess you are right there... But I have a feeling you will dispute that hence, not indisputable.
But no, to answer the OP no consensus on dakka. Talk to your group about it. Any particular rules clarifications feel free to pm me. (Tbh, not suredaemonnkin summoning is worth the stress
ATC ruled the way they did because their position was the Daemonkin does not specify that the unit arrives from Reserves, therefore the "Swooping" requirement does not apply. The said you just have to declare which mode at the start of the movement phase as normal.
FlingitNow wrote: Lies don't help your argument. DS rules make no mention of when you arrive as you well know.
Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase.
It should be noted that Conjuring and Summoning are not the same thing, and that a Summoned Daemonkin Bloodthirster no more comes from Reserves than a Spawn or Daemon Prince being placed via Chaos Marine Boon.
Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase.
Nope arriving from reserves happen at the start of the turn. Check the reserves rules.
No, rolling for Reserves happens at the start of the turn. Arriving is never stated as being before the Movement Phase. After all, one of the caveats is that you "move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move", isn't it?
When the Unit Arrives from Reserves is very difficult to pin-point on the timeline, which is why different interpenetration easily exist. We have a Rule called 'Arriving from Reserves' which begins by stating: At the start of your second turn... and ends by stating Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move. The moment the turn starts and the moment other Units can move are two completely different points in the timeline, with quite a lot that can occur in between. This means all we can say for certain is the Units Move onto the board sometime after the very start of the Start of Turn sub-phase, but before the middle of the Movement Phase. Expect people to point to the first point if they believe it is during the Start of Turn Sub-phase and the last point if they believe it is during the Movement Phase.
This is just an example of Hack-and-Paste that Game Workshop does, caring not if the old Rule actually fits the new Rule-set.... In previous Editions the Start of Turn occurred during the Movement Phase, it was not it's own sub-phase like it is now, so the above wording made a lot more sense then.
FlingitNow wrote: Lies don't help your argument. DS rules make no mention of when you arrive as you well know.
Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase.
It should be noted that Conjuring and Summoning are not the same thing, and that a Summoned Daemonkin Bloodthirster no more comes from Reserves than a Spawn or Daemon Prince being placed via Chaos Marine Boon.
well a spawn/daemon prince from the boon table are replacing models that are already on the table
Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase.
Nope arriving from reserves happen at the start of the turn. Check the reserves rules.
No, rolling for Reserves happens at the start of the turn. Arriving is never stated as being before the Movement Phase. After all, one of the caveats is that you "move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move", isn't it?
Arriving is part of the start of the turn according to the rules. Check what happens if you don't roll a 3+ on turn 3. Also check where the arriving from reserves rules say they occur. They say you roll at the start of the turn then you arrive. Nothing there tells you to change to the movement phase for arrival so you can't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JinxDragon wrote: When the Unit Arrives from Reserves is very difficult to pin-point on the timeline, which is why different interpenetration easily exist. We have a Rule called 'Arriving from Reserves' which begins by stating: At the start of your second turn... and ends by stating Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move. The moment the turn starts and the moment other Units can move are two completely different points in the timeline, with quite a lot that can occur in between. This means all we can say for certain is the Units Move onto the board sometime after the very start of the Start of Turn sub-phase, but before the middle of the Movement Phase. Expect people to point to the first point if they believe it is during the Start of Turn Sub-phase and the last point if they believe it is during the Movement Phase.
This is just an example of Hack-and-Paste that Game Workshop does, caring not if the old Rule actually fits the new Rule-set....
In previous Editions the Start of Turn occurred during the Movement Phase, it was not it's own sub-phase like it is now, so the above wording made a lot more sense then.
Except of course if you fail your reserve roll on turn 3... Arrivalis absolutely part of start of the turn this is not up for debate unless you believe the rulebook is wrong.
Not sure if this has been pointed out because I haven't read up on this issue, but.
It's states under flying Mounstrous creatures that units arriving by deepstrike always count as swooping.
It states under flying Mounstrous creatures at the start of it's "Move" it can change flight modes.
It states under Deepstrike, that a unit that deepstrike cannot move any further for the turn.
So it's either, units that arrive by deepstrike always count a swooping, and we leave it there
Or
Because you cannot move after deepstrike, you can never choose your flight mode because you can only do so at the start of your move.
"But deepstrike counts as my move, so I get the choose then." you say?
No. You would be breaking the requirement for alway swooping when arriving by deepstrike.
IXLoiero95XI wrote: Not sure if this has been pointed out because I haven't read up on this issue, but.
It's states under flying Mounstrous creatures that units arriving by deepstrike always count as swooping.
It states under flying Mounstrous creatures at the start of it's "Move" it can change flight modes.
It states under Deepstrike, that a unit that deepstrike cannot move any further for the turn.
So it's either, units that arrive by deepstrike always count a swooping, and we leave it there
Or
Because you cannot move after deepstrike, you can never choose your flight mode because you can only do so at the start of your move.
"But deepstrike counts as my move, so I get the choose then." you say?
No. You would be breaking the requirement for alway swooping when arriving by deepstrike.
But those are rules. People who want their BT summoned FMCs to glide don't believe in rules. They believe if they close their eyes and put their hands over theirs ears and wish it enough they are allowed to change the rules to give themselves an unfair advantage.
Or, like all fmc's, you Run, which is a move. As you never Declared a flight mode - you count as swooping, but do not do so via a declaration - you may then Declare you are gliding.
FlingitNow wrote: People who want their BT summoned FMCs to glide don't believe in rules. They believe if they close their eyes and put their hands over theirs ears and wish it enough they are allowed to change the rules to give themselves an unfair advantage.
As mature and constructive as ever I see. Is it not perhaps the case that they just have a different interpretation of the rules than yourself?
Flingitnow, Please quote the Rule you believe makes it 100% clear that Arriving Models Move onto the board at the Start of Turn. Keep in mind that the Arriving from Reserves Rule even mentioning the movement of non-Reserved Models is the problem for determining exactly when it is occurring on the timeline. The clear divide between the Rolls of Arrival and the Movement of the Arriving Models, with a requirement that one happens before the other, creates a sequence that makes it impossible for simultaneous occurrence. Rolling for Arrival has the Start-of-Turn terminology, so the movement of the Models must occur after this point in the time line... it has to fall somewhere after the Rolling for Arrival, Start of Turn, and movement of other Models, middle of Movement Phase.
As I said before: Hack and Pasted from a time when the Start of Turn was during the Movement Phase and not updated to fit the Rule-set correctly!
FlingitNow wrote: People who want their BT summoned FMCs to glide don't believe in rules. They believe if they close their eyes and put their hands over theirs ears and wish it enough they are allowed to change the rules to give themselves an unfair advantage.
As mature and constructive as ever I see. Is it not perhaps the case that they just have a different interpretation of the rules than yourself?
However that interpretation is not based on the rules is it? It is based on what you want the rules to be and then you select parts of rules and try to make them fit your interpretation. Hence why your interpretation changed about 4 times during the long thread as you desperately tried to find different reasons of why you could break the process that applies to all DSing FMCs.
Did you even notice that the Arriving from Reserve Rule contains clauses that relate to other Units normal Movement?
What Phase do Units normally Move in?
The actual quote is " automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn ". This is from a section talking about reserve rolls. It is quite clear it is telling you not to make reserve rolls at the start of turn four, as they pass automatically. It is definitely Not , giving blanket permission to make all reserve moves at the start of the turn. Which makes sense, as the start of the turn is generally for wierd stuff, Not movement, which happens in the movement phase by default.
JinxDragon wrote: Did you even notice that the Arriving from Reserve Rule contains clauses that relate to other Units normal Movement?
What Phase do Units normally Move in?
Yes I noticed that. What phase comes after start of the turn? What do you do after all your units have arrived from reserves?
There is absolutely no doubt that RaW units arrive at the start of the turn. The reserve rules explicitly cover this.
FlingitNow wrote: I never said move onto the board I said arrive. Page 135 column 2 paragraph 7, 3rd sentence "... arrives at the start of your fourth turn".
Also note how the entire "Arriving from Reserve" makes reference ONLY to the start of the turn and never references the Movement phase at any time.
FlingitNow wrote: People who want their BT summoned FMCs to glide don't believe in rules. They believe if they close their eyes and put their hands over theirs ears and wish it enough they are allowed to change the rules to give themselves an unfair advantage.
As mature and constructive as ever I see. Is it not perhaps the case that they just have a different interpretation of the rules than yourself?
However that interpretation is not based on the rules is it? It is based on what you want the rules to be and then you select parts of rules and try to make them fit your interpretation. Hence why your interpretation changed about 4 times during the long thread as you desperately tried to find different reasons of why you could break the process that applies to all DSing FMCs.
I can confirm my interpretation is entirely based on the rules. You just don't agree.
FlingitNow wrote: Lies don't help your argument. DS rules make no mention of when you arrive as you well know.
Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase.
It should be noted that Conjuring and Summoning are not the same thing, and that a Summoned Daemonkin Bloodthirster no more comes from Reserves than a Spawn or Daemon Prince being placed via Chaos Marine Boon.
well a spawn/daemon prince from the boon table are replacing models that are already on the table
Review the Daemonkin rules. In those cases where a model is removed, the phrasing is exactly like the Boon table. In addition, the units are never stated as having come from Reserves, even when coming in new from Deep Strike
Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase.
Nope arriving from reserves happen at the start of the turn. Check the reserves rules.
No, rolling for Reserves happens at the start of the turn. Arriving is never stated as being before the Movement Phase. After all, one of the caveats is that you "move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move", isn't it?
Arriving is part of the start of the turn according to the rules. Check what happens if you don't roll a 3+ on turn 3. Also check where the arriving from reserves rules say they occur. They say you roll at the start of the turn then you arrive. Nothing there tells you to change to the movement phase for arrival so you can't.
It doesn't tell you to, no, but neither does it state that it stays there for deploying the model, especially with the caveats the end.
All a cow's opinion, anyway. Summoned units are not brought in from Reserves.
IXLoiero95XI wrote:It's states under flying Mounstrous creatures that units arriving by deepstrike always count as swooping.
Correction, it states this for arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. An FMC using Gate of Infinity is not required to be in Swooping Mode after.
Summoned models, while they do Deep Strike, are not brought in from Reserves like Conjured models are.
Bloodthirster can arrive in glide, simply cause its not OP, I would let an opponent do this (and cause I think the bloodthirster isnt coming from deep strike reserve)
But, I also think chars dieing only give blood point if it happens in challenge and thats how I play it (even though the grammar of the rule doesnt work like this I think thats the intent)
nosferatu1001 wrote: Or, like all fmc's, you Run, which is a move. As you never Declared a flight mode - you count as swooping, but do not do so via a declaration - you may then Declare you are gliding.
"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until it's next turn."
Until it's next turn implies that it cannot voluntarily change flight modes during yours or your opponents turn. Since your swooping for that turn you cannot change.
Also because your swooping and you elect to run you roll 2D6" for your movement. You are only permitted to move after your determine the run distance. If you then declared your were going to glide you have then broken the rules because only a swooping model can roll 2D6.
The crux of the whole argument as to why the bloodthirster should be treated like other fmcs that arrive from deep strike reserves (and must arrive swooping)
Is...does the Bloodthirster arrive from deep strike reserve?
For summoned units using psychic powers it specifically states it in the brb.
...
For summoned units in the blood tithe table it glaringly, strikingly, plainly does not state that it is treated as coming from deep strike reserve.
So why do people keep insisting that it must arrive swooping?
chaosmarauder wrote: The crux of the whole argument as to why the bloodthirster should be treated like other fmcs that arrive from deep strike reserves (and must arrive swooping)
Is...does the Bloodthirster arrive from deep strike reserve?
For summoned units using psychic powers it specifically states it in the brb.
...
For summoned units in the blood tithe table it glaringly, strikingly, plainly does not state that it is treated as coming from deep strike reserve.
So why do people keep insisting that it must arrive swooping?
Like I said I haven't read up on this, just going by the Rulebook lol.
What does it say in Khorne Deamon Kin? Can someone quote it?
IXLoiero95XI wrote: What does it say in Khorne Deamon Kin? Can someone quote it?
From the Daemonkin book (excluding fluff text):
5 Daemontide: A unit consisting of either 8 Bloodletters or 5 Flesh Hounds (controlling player’s choice) is summoned (see below) within 12” of any friendly unit with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule.
6 Harbingers of Blood and Brass: A unit of consisting of either 3 Bloodcrushers or a Skull Cannon (controlling player’s choice) is summoned (see below) within 12” of any friendly unit with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule.
7 Dark Apotheosis: Choose one friendly character with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule who does not have the Daemon of Khorne special rule on the board. That character must immediately take a Leadership test. If the test is failed, a Chaos Spawn is summoned (see below) within 6” of that character. If the test is passed, a Daemon Prince equipped with Warp-forged armour (and Daemonic Flight if the model being used to represent it has wings) is summoned within 6” of that character. In either case, the chosen character is removed as a casualty. If the chosen character was your Warlord, your opponent does not earn the Slay the Warlord Secondary Objective until the newly summoned model is removed as a casualty. Furthermore, the Daemon Prince will retain any Warlord Trait and Artefacts of Slaughter your Warlord had (ignoring the usual restrictions on these items).
8 Fury Unbound: Choose one friendly character with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule who does not have the Daemon of Khorne special rule on the board. That character must immediately take a Leadership test. If the test is failed, that model is immediately removed as a casualty. If the test is passed, a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury is summoned (see below) within 6” of that character, and then the chosen character is removed as a casualty. If the chosen character was your Warlord and passed its Leadership test, your opponent does not earn the Slay the Warlord Secondary Objective until the newly summoned model is removed as a casualty. Furthermore, the Bloodthirster will retain any Warlord Trait your Warlord had.
Designer’s Note:When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike within range of the specified unit(s) on the board. If the unit’s Army List Entry has the option to take a banner of blood, an instrument of Chaos and/or the option to upgrade one model to a character, you may take any of these options for free provided you have the appropriate model available. Unless stated otherwise, a summoned unit cannot take any further upgrades or options. If you do not have enough models to place the entire unit on the board, place as many as you can – any excess are considered destroyed.
Note in Fury Unbound that the phrasing is just like Dark Apotheosis, which is just like the Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis of the Chaos Marine Boon Table.
Also note in the Designer's Note that summoned units, while arriving via Deep Strike, are not noted as arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, unlike the Psyker rules for Conjuring which are treated as coming in from Reserves.
Deepstrike is an action, deep strike reserve is a place.
All it says there is that if you want to deepstrike you have to place in reserve first.
Summoning bypasses the restriction on having to come from reserves. It does not say the unit came from reserves.
As proof, the psychic summoning in brb says to deepstrike AND it counts as being from deep strike reserves. i.e. 2 separate things - they wouldnt have to state that if they were the same thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ps quote the whole paragraph, its talking about placing a unit into reserves. It doesnt say that all deepstriking comes from reserves. Gate of infinity doesnt make your unit come from reserves.
All it says there is that if you want to deepstrike you have to place in reserve first.
Summoning bypasses the restriction on having to come from reserves. It does not say the unit came from reserves.
As proof, the psychic summoning in brb says to deepstrike AND it counts as being from deep strike reserves. i.e. 2 separate things - they wouldnt have to state that if they were the same thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ps quote the whole paragraph, its talking about placing a unit into reserves. It doesnt say that all deepstriking comes from reserves. Gate of infinity doesnt make your unit come from reserves.
As stated Deepstrike and Deepstrike Reserves are the same. Therefore Deepstrike Reserves is an action by your logic.
Wrong! It's states in the BRB "the new unit arrives via Deep Strike...and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Or, like all fmc's, you Run, which is a move. As you never Declared a flight mode - you count as swooping, but do not do so via a declaration - you may then Declare you are gliding.
"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until it's next turn."
Until it's next turn implies that it cannot voluntarily change flight modes during yours or your opponents turn. Since your swooping for that turn you cannot change.
Also because your swooping and you elect to run you roll 2D6" for your movement. You are only permitted to move after your determine the run distance. If you then declared your were going to glide you have then broken the rules because only a swooping model can roll 2D6.
1) awesome, now find where I declare swooping. I do not. I declare nothing. The unit counts as swooping, but no declaration was ever made.
2) a nonsense. I declare before I move. Which is before I run. Which is before I toll any dice. If you disagree, rule please.
No. It's states that you declare at the start of your move meaning when you are about to actually move the model. And like a said before run specifically states you may move only after you roll the distance.
IXLoiero95XI wrote: No. It's states that you declare at the start of your move meaning when you are about to actually move the model. And like a said before run specifically states you may move only after you roll the distance.
Before you move. Rolling the dice is before I move, and declaring is befor I move. I choose when two events occur at the same time
1) awesome, now find where I declare swooping. I do not. I declare nothing. The unit counts as swooping, but no declaration was ever made.
2) a nonsense. I declare before I move. Which is before I run. Which is before I toll any dice. If you disagree, rule please.
I know people are too obstinate to actually change their minds, but here are all the rules and logical flow that states a summoned Blood Thirster is Swooping.
1. summoning, Designer's Note under Blood Tithe Table:
"When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike..."
2. Deep Strike Reserves, in Deep Strike:
"Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves)"
3. Arriving by Deep Strike under Deep Strike:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further..."
4. Deployment under Flying Monstrous Creatures:
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
5. Changing Flight Modes under Flying Monstrous Creatures:
"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn..."
So summon a guy, step 1. He Deep Strikes, step 2, which counts a move, step 3. Before that move, he must declare Swooping or Gliding, step 5, but is restricted to only choosing Swooping, step 4.
DarknessEternal wrote: 2. Deep Strike Reserves, in Deep Strike:
"Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves)"
Now, for the whole paragraph:
BRB Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
*emphasis mine*
Placing a unit in Reserves for Deep Strike is sometimes called putting it in Deep Strike Reserves. Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are not the same thing.
DarknessEternal wrote: 4. Deployment under Flying Monstrous Creatures:
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
Not in dispute. The fact is that a Summoned Daemon Prince or Bloodthirster is never stated as arriving from any Reserves, much less Deep Strike Reserves.
DarknessEternal wrote: Um, you quoted me quoting the Rule Book that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are exactly the same thing.
Then read what I wrote after which quoted the whole paragraph from the rulebook and emphasized the full sentence. You took a portion of the sentence out of context as your evidence. The sentence does not state that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing. It states that Deep Strike Reserves is putting a unit in Reserves and declaring that it will Deep Strike.
You misquoted to prove your point. Very Poor Form.
JinxDragon wrote: Frozocrone,
Many believe Deep Striking is Movement, pointing at the words 'any further' within that clause as evidence that the Model must have Moved.
Deep Striking doesn't make a model fly, though, otherwise, we'd have to Snap Fire at Drop Pods.
Conjuration BRB wrote:When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control andis treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes. If the new unit suffers a Deep Strike mishap and ends up in Ongoing Reserves, it can Deep Strike anywhere on the board when it enters play.
So as from my point of view:
-Summoned units are treated as entering from reserves by DS.
-FMC that enter via DS enter Swooping.
-If the it enter game before or during the Start of the Movement Phase you can choose to change flying mode.
If enter during the start of the movement phase, you choose the order of events during the start of the phase, first enter, then change flying mode.
Charistoph, Drop Pods don't have types of flying modes, or move at all thats why it can't "fly"
Conjuration BRB wrote:When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control andis treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes. If the new unit suffers a Deep Strike mishap and ends up in Ongoing Reserves, it can Deep Strike anywhere on the board when it enters play.
So as from my point of view:
-Summoned units are treated as entering from reserves by DS.
-FMC that enter via DS enter Swooping.
-If the it enter game before or during the Start of the Movement Phase you can choose to change flying mode.
If enter during the start of the movement phase, you choose the order of events during the start of the phase, first enter, then change flying mode.
Daemonkin Summoning is not Conjuring. Conjuring is a Psyker power used by a model/unit with one of the Psyker rules. Summoning does not involve Psykers of any kind, therefore Conjuration rules mean as much to Summoning as Chapter Traits to a Necron Immortal. Summoning never states that the models are treated as coming from Reserves.
Wallur wrote: Charistoph, Drop Pods don't have types of flying modes, or move at all thats why it can't "fly"
I know they don't. My point was that just because something Deep Strikes is no reason to think of that movement as Flying unless specifically directed to. FMCs only MUST consider their Deep Strike movement as Flying when it comes from Reserves or is Conjured. This does not hold true if they used Deep Strike via Gate of Infinity or Summoned as neither state the model is coming from Reserves.
They don't change their flight mode at the start of the Movement phase, but "... at the start of its move...". If you don't start its move then you can't change its flight mode.
This thread is getting all kinds of ridiculous...so I'll stoke the fires some more.
It says they can't move any FURTHER. So moving 0 inch is still getting a move, you just can't move more than that. So you do get to move, just not very far.
You just lept RIGHT over that step. Totally unsupported leap.
I never,ever declare. It counts as swooping. If I declare, it IS swooping. But I never declared.
You did declare it Swooping. You're forced to pick Swooping or Gliding, but are restricted to only picking Swooping. Your choice is certainly limited, but it was made. The model can't be on the table unless you made such a declaration, as that has to be made prior to it's move (which was to be placed on the table). I spelled out the steps that produce this result explicitly.
If you're going to claim that because you didn't have a choice, it wasn't a declaration of it's movement mode, you're going to have to ignore most of the rules in the entire ruleset.
For example, Overwatch shooting doesn't breakdown because you aren't allowed to declare a target in the same way you normally declare targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote: The sentence does not state that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.
Yes, that is in fact what it explicitly states. You want it to mean something else, but that's just not how those words work together. If we are using English, which we are, that sentence says Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.
Charistoph wrote: The sentence does not state that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.
Yes, that is in fact what it explicitly states. You want it to mean something else, but that's just not how those words work together. If we are using English, which we are, that sentence says Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.
No, it does not.
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
does not equal
"Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
No matter how you try and slice it, they are not the same thing.
I can't really help you break down that sentence much further. It says that Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.
It does not say that Reserve is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.
If you're going to keep disagreeing, we have nothing further to discuss here. It's like you're arguing that the sky isn't blue. This is just how the language works. If we can't use the same one, we can't discuss anything.
DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
If you want a ****** RAW at the full:
Since the summoned FMC:
-Does not deployed at the start, so it doesn't start Gliding.
-It doesn't come from reserves, so you can't choose the mode.
-It doesn't come from DEEP STRIKE RESERVE it doesnt start Swooping.
So it starts immobilized? because it can't start in any of the normal movement modes it would.
If you want the CLOSEST definition to what is happening:
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. -(NOT THE CASE SINCE IT IS SUMMONED)- If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode -(NEITHER THE CASE BECAUSE IT ISN'T KEPT IN RESERVE, IT IS SUMMONED SO YOU CAN'T CHOSE)-. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode. -(NOT 100% EXACTLY BUT IS THE CLOSEST SINCE IT ENTERS VIA SUMMON DEEP STRIKE)-
But again, I would let it change flight mode in the movement phase (with the penalties it carries)
DarknessEternal wrote: I can't really help you break down that sentence much further. It says that Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.
It does not say that Reserve is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.
If you're going to keep disagreeing, we have nothing further to discuss here. It's like you're arguing that the sky isn't blue. This is just how the language works. If we can't use the same one, we can't discuss anything.
No, what it does state is that when a model is put in Reserves to be arriving by Deep Strike, you must declare it, this is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves.
Deep Strike = A USR that describes a method of deploying a model, usually from Reserves.
Deep Strike Reserves = A status in Reserves denoting a unit to be later deployed via Deep Strike.
Chopping off 90% of the sentence to take it out of context is the problem.
No, what it does state is that when a model is put in Reserves to be arriving by Deep Strike, you must declare it, this is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves.
I'll make another attempt to teach you grammar.
What it says:
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The part that says "Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" means Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves.
For your interpretation to be what it means, it would have to say:
When placing the unit in Reserve(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve), you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
It does not. The placement of that clause is important.
You just lept RIGHT over that step. Totally unsupported leap.
I never,ever declare. It counts as swooping. If I declare, it IS swooping. But I never declared.
You did declare it Swooping. You're forced to pick Swooping or Gliding, but are restricted to only picking Swooping. Your choice is certainly limited, but it was made. The model can't be on the table unless you made such a declaration, as that has to be made prior to it's move (which was to be placed on the table). I spelled out the steps that produce this result explicitly.
If you're going to claim that because you didn't have a choice, it wasn't a declaration of it's movement mode, you're going to have to ignore most of the rules in the entire ruleset.
For example, Overwatch shooting doesn't breakdown because you aren't allowed to declare a target in the same way you normally declare targets.
No. Again, state my declaration. I am to,d it COUNTS AS SWOOPING. If I *declare* it to be swooping , it IS swooping. It is not counts as any longer
So I can declare it as gliding, it will count as swooping.
Again. Prove my declaration. You can't, so please, concede that counts is must necessarily mean it is not "is" otherwise it would actually BE "is" and not counts as . Or don't, but realise you are defending a disproven position.
You are not allowed to declare it as Gliding. It has a restriction of "must be Swooping when Deep Striking".
You must declare Swooping or Gliding before you move. Deep Strike is a move. You are restricted to Swooping. Therefore, you declare Swooping. All of this has been shown already. I provided you with the rulebook text as well.
Your argument is akin to saying that you can shoot at a non-charging unit on Overwatch. It has "declare target" as a step, and restricts your choice. This is the same.
You are not allowed to declare it as Gliding. It has a restriction of "must be Swooping when Deep Striking".
Incorrect, this is only in place when arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, not just Deep Strike. Reserves are not involved when Summoning or redeploying via Gate of Infinity. They are never actually mentioned.
Why did they specify in the psychic summoning rule in brb that the units arrive via deepstrike and are treated as coming from deep strike reserve, but in the blood tithe summoning did not specify this?
Because blood tithe summoning does not come from deep strike reserve.
The makers of the game felt the distinction was necessary, this proves that it is different.
And the rule people keep quoting about deep strike = deep strike reserves is in the context of when you put the model in resereve, which you definitely dont do with summoned units.
chaosmarauder, Charistoph et al have it exactly right regarding Deep Striking and Deep Strike Reserves not being the same thing. Deep Striking is when they arrive on the board, Deep Strike Reserve is a place where you put models that are nominated to arrive from Reserve by Deep Strike. This is a necessary distinction from normal Reserves as you are required to declare which units will be arriving by Deep Strike before the game starts.
BT Summoned units are never in Reserve and are therefore not arriving via Deep Strike Reserve. If they were considered to be coming from Reserves the rules would state this, as in the case for Conjured units.
You are not allowed to declare it as Gliding. It has a restriction of "must be Swooping when Deep Striking".
Ok, you're just being deliberately obtuse now. No, there is no such restriction. it states, as quoted and as you have deliberately altered above, that it COUNTS AS swooping. Your quote us utterly made up, and is not debating honestly.
I never, ever declare when deep striking. It counts as.
Answer that problem with your argument, or concede the point. Stop blithely ignoring and misquoting in the hope it won't be spotted.
Ok, since you like so much RAW, please, quote exactly where the BRB say that Deep Strike IS moving, not why you interpret it is moving.
But again, the closest thing found in the rulebook that better adjust to the situation of a FMC entering via Deep Strike, is entereing from reserves Via Deep Strike. The closest rule to a summoned unit (a unit that does not start the game neither on the board or in reserves) is the conjurating psychic power.
I KNOW THAT IS NOT THE SAME, but those rules are the closest rules we have to apply with units that Suddenly arrives from nowhere via Deep Strike.
That is exactly what I said. IT IS NOT THE SAME. It's the closest.
Closest =/= Same
Closest -> 90%
Same -> 100%
But since there is no ruling about it, I'd go with the closest rule to it.
Also if it is not held in reserve neither treated as it... then you can't choose which mode is using. Since when placing the model for the first time on the table you are only allowed to choose mode when it is entering from reserves. This is not the case, you can't chose mode when you place it on the board. It doesn't start gliding because it only start gliding when it STARTS the gome on the table. It doesn't start Swooping because the wording has 1 extra disturbing word. "If it enters Via Deep Strike RESERVES, it enters swooping" if they worded "If it enters Via Deep Strike, it enters swooping" and this discussion wouldn't even exist. but well. If you want to treat it like entering from reserves so it let you choose than treating it from Deep Strike Reserves (that has 90% of the words in common with the situation here) keep arguing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you think about it being neither swooping nor gliding is the same as gliding.
If it is neither swooping nor gliding,then it is immobilized, because it can only have 3 states:
Swooping, gliding, immobilized.
Also couldn't move any further, it also looks like immobilized (if you just want to make logic using of words)
It is immobilized, it can't jink.
Plus, discard immobilized, it start neither Gliding nor Swooping, you change the movement mode from NONE to GLIDING. there you change flying modes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is no ruling.
This is the closest Ruling:
FMCBRB wrote:If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
17 words
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
16 words
94% of the wording apply in this case, if GW would/ve just wrote "Deep Strike"
Also, as said before, the BRB says that "Deep Strike" is some times called "Deep Strike Reserves" , we could say that Deep Strike is treated as Deep Strike Reserves.
Wallur wrote: Ok, since you like so much RAW, please, quote exactly where the BRB say that Deep Strike IS moving, not why you interpret it is moving.
But again, the closest thing found in the rulebook that better adjust to the situation of a FMC entering via Deep Strike, is entereing from reserves Via Deep Strike. The closest rule to a summoned unit (a unit that does not start the game neither on the board or in reserves) is the conjurating psychic power.
I KNOW THAT IS NOT THE SAME, but those rules are the closest rules we have to apply with units that Suddenly arrives from nowhere via Deep Strike.
But the closest thing to it in another codex is the Chaos Marine Boon Table.
But just because it is the closest thing in the BRB, does not mean it is the rule. A good place to start for a House Rule, maybe, but then, the same thing should apply to a Lord of Change using Gate of Infinity, too.
Charistoph wrote: But the closest thing to it in another codex is the Chaos Marine Boon Table.
If you mean "Spawnhood/Apotheosis" it says "place" that is way too different from "enter via Deep Strike"
Charistoph wrote: But just because it is the closest thing in the BRB, does not mean it is the rule. A good place to start for a House Rule, maybe, but then, the same thing should apply to a Lord of Change using Gate of Infinity, too.
I know, but there is no rule that speifies anything, not the mode, not giving you the option to choose.
If you want to fluff this, something that enters via Deep Strike, is usually something comming at full speed, (Falling from the Skyies, erupting from down below or emergnig from a portal)not walking pacefully.
But well... you'll have to set this with your opponent (preferible before happening)
There's nothing much to talk about this since there is no actual rule for this.
If it were me I'll follow de rule for FMC entering via DS Res
That is exactly what I said. IT IS NOT THE SAME. It's the closest.
Closest =/= Same
Closest -> 90%
Same -> 100%
But since there is no ruling about it, I'd go with the closest rule to it.
Also if it is not held in reserve neither treated as it... then you can't choose which mode is using. Since when placing the model for the first time on the table you are only allowed to choose mode when it is entering from reserves. This is not the case, you can't chose mode when you place it on the board. It doesn't start gliding because it only start gliding when it STARTS the gome on the table. It doesn't start Swooping because the wording has 1 extra disturbing word. "If it enters Via Deep Strike RESERVES, it enters swooping" if they worded "If it enters Via Deep Strike, it enters swooping" and this discussion wouldn't even exist. but well. If you want to treat it like entering from reserves so it let you choose than treating it from Deep Strike Reserves (that has 90% of the words in common with the situation here) keep arguing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you think about it being neither swooping nor gliding is the same as gliding.
If it is neither swooping nor gliding,then it is immobilized, because it can only have 3 states:
Swooping, gliding, immobilized.
Also couldn't move any further, it also looks like immobilized (if you just want to make logic using of words)
It is immobilized, it can't jink.
Plus, discard immobilized, it start neither Gliding nor Swooping, you change the movement mode from NONE to GLIDING. there you change flying modes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is no ruling.
This is the closest Ruling:
FMCBRB wrote:If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
17 words
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
16 words
94% of the wording apply in this case, if GW would/ve just wrote "Deep Strike"
Also, as said before, the BRB says that "Deep Strike" is some times called "Deep Strike Reserves" , we could say that Deep Strike is treated as Deep Strike Reserves.
All other unit types besides FMC dont have rulings for arriving by deepstrike, are you saying they should be immobalized? I dont think so.
Is there a rule saying if FMC is not gliding or swooping its immobalized? No its not a vehicle.
Arriving modeless is not a problem and doesnt present a single rules conundrum, I challenge you to find one.
I maintain RAW a blood tithed summoned BT does not arrive from deep strike reserves and is neither gliding nor swooping until it moves.
chaosmarauder wrote: All other unit types besides FMC dont have rulings for arriving by deepstrike, are you saying they should be immobalized? I dont think so.
No, because other units don't have different modes of movement, there is only 1 kind of movement for them.
Plus, the immobilized thing was for mentioning that if something has to be only A or B, and can't chose/state A or B... what are you asigning? C?
chaosmarauder wrote: I maintain RAW a blood tithed summoned BT does not arrive from deep strike reserves and is neither gliding nor swooping until it moves.
Then it has to change mode from NONE to GLIDING when it moves, since it wasn't Gliding.
Tonberry7 wrote: BT Summoned units are never in Reserve and are therefore not arriving via Deep Strike Reserve. If they were considered to be coming from Reserves the rules would state this, as in the case for Conjured units.
Conjured units (Result of Conjuring psichic power) are never in reserves either... but you treat them as if they were arriving from reserves. Also, is the conjured were a FMC it would be a FMC that enter via DS, but has never been placen on Deep Strike Reserves, since it was never placed on reserves... but it is treated as. it would enter Swooping.
Conjured units are almost the same as Summoned units, the difference is that Summoned is not a Psychic power, it doesn't happen on the psychic phase.
As I had said 2 pages ago and been repeating, these rules (Conjuring + FMC entering via DS) are the closest thing to rule this situation.
I don't agree with you that it would assume an unwritten state of 'C: Immobalized' - there is nothing wrong, rules wise, with it being stateless until it moves.
I agree that once it does move (in the next turn) you would choose the state before it moves.
chaosmarauder wrote: I don't agree with you that it would assume an unwritten state of 'C: Immobalized' - there is nothing wrong, rules wise, with it being stateless until it moves.
I agree that once it does move (in the next turn) you would choose the state before it moves.
You have to admit, it is counter intuitive, although I can't think of a single situation where it matters.
As a deamonkin player it didn't even occur to me that you could assault after dropping the thirster, it just seems to break the ds rule as I jnderstand it and the fmc rule, it seems.gamey, so no, I won't be attempting it.
At least he is acknowledging it. It's a refreshing change. Too many take their HIWPI and call it The Rules In Stone Tablets.
Wallur wrote:
Tonberry7 wrote: BT Summoned units are never in Reserve and are therefore not arriving via Deep Strike Reserve. If they were considered to be coming from Reserves the rules would state this, as in the case for Conjured units.
Conjured units (Result of Conjuring psichic power) are never in reserves either... but you treat them as if they were arriving from reserves. Also, is the conjured were a FMC it would be a FMC that enter via DS, but has never been placen on Deep Strike Reserves, since it was never placed on reserves... but it is treated as. it would enter Swooping.
Conjured units are almost the same as Summoned units, the difference is that Summoned is not a Psychic power, it doesn't happen on the psychic phase.
As I had said 2 pages ago and been repeating, these rules (Conjuring + FMC entering via DS) are the closest thing to rule this situation.
Again, just because it is close, or almost the same, does not necessarily equate to being the same. Relentless and Slow and Purposeful are almost the same. Reanimation Protocols and Feel No Pain are almost the same. Yet they are not, and it is the differences which actually define them.
If a player chose to bring their Summoned FMC in and call it Gliding, I won't have a problem with it, largely because I literally have nothing to gainsay the situation. Sure there's another rule that operates on a similar basis, but that is like arguing that a Relentless model cannot fire Overwatch because neither Slow and Purposeful modles or Vehicles can.
Do note, however, that these do not make these correct as per the RAW. This is HIWPI, enforced to an entire event. Personally, I don't think they're wrong in doing so - as the fluff of what's happening (the gates to the Warp open up, and boomf, here's a daemon) makes sense that this thing can charge. It's not coming from "high up" like a Flyrant swooping in would, but could even be coming in at ground level. That said, the RAW is very clear - it's a Flying Monstrous Creature that's arriving by Deep Strike. The only reason these events are ruling the way they are is because it feels so wrong to follow those rules, that they are anticipating it being a mistake by GW, rather than them misinterpreting the rules of the game.
Honestly, I've been involved on all the topics of this argument - and mostly keep around to play devils advocate.
I find the camp saying they arrive by deep strike therefore from deep strike reserves = must be swooping to be a bit louder than the other side.
So mostly I argue for the other side - its very odd that the statement 'and is treated as if it arrived from deep strike reserve' is missing from the blood tithe summoning rule, but is present in the conguring rule.
And I can't wait for an FAQ on this because really truly, after reading hundreds of arguments either way, I really cannot tell which way they intended. And RAW is not 'clear' as some people think on this.
But with all that aside, my group sees it as not being OP anyway so we let the bloodthirsters arrive in gliding (its more fun like that anyway, it makes them scarier)
I think most people wouldn't mind Bloodthirsters arriving in Gliding mode, myself included even though my interpretation of RAW is that Bloodtithe thirsters have to remain Swooping for the turn they arrive on. The people who adhere to strict RAW for their advantage, aren't the sort of people you should be playing.
Agree that an FAQ is needed though...whether they will update is another question.
People don't like it because it is powerful so they try to argue against it - as it has evolved it becomes more and more transparent they do not have a valid case.
No, what it does state is that when a model is put in Reserves to be arriving by Deep Strike, you must declare it, this is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves.
I'll make another attempt to teach you grammar.
What it says:
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
The part that says "Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" means Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves.
For your interpretation to be what it means, it would have to say:
When placing the unit in Reserve(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve), you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
It does not. The placement of that clause is important.
The problem isn't grammar, you are taking a sentence out of context. The context of the sentence is that if you put a unit into reserve, you have to tell your opponent that they are deep striking (instead of walking on to the table edge) this is known as "Deep Strike Reserve" it is not known as "Deep Strike" Deep Striking is a special rule, Deep Strike Reserve is an alternative place to hold your models while they wait to enter play.
chaosmarauder wrote: Note - from a rules perspective, being stateless and being in gliding are identical - can you see any difference?
There is one difference... you can't charge the turn you change flying mode... so if you CHANGE from none, to gliding, you can't charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, So, with RAW, (no closest RAW nor RAI)
The stateless is the only one viable to RAW
You definitely can't choose flying mode, because RAW only express you can choose in only 2 situations:
-At the Start of the Movement.
-When it enters from reserves.
Since neither is the case and also no rule for making it enter play in any specific mode (Gliding or Swooping). So RAW don't stablish any flying mode.
But as Chaosmarauder said, this "stateless" would be like gliding for that turn (since the limitations from swooping won't be in effect)
If you run in the shooting phase of the turn it arrives, I think you could change the state from stateless to gliding since you didn't choose one in its movement phase (since it can't move in the movement phase due to deepstrike)
Note: it says at the start of its 'move' not 'movement phase' - there is a restriction that it can't change flight mode when falling back, but not when running
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until
the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot
declare a charge during the same turn.
Then it could choose gliding again on its next turn and charge.
Wallur wrote: As you mention that...
So... Can the FMC Swoop in the movement phase and Run Gliding on it's shooting phase?
Starting the Run is Starting a new move...
Honestly, I'm looking....but I can't find anything to say you can't change states in the first turn coming from deep strike by running.
It says you just can't change states when falling back.
In subsequent turns, you will be choosing the state at the start of its move in the movement phase, which lasts until the next turn,...but not the first turn it comes in because deepstrike says it is not allowed to move in the movement phase.
Just pointing out - while Running is moving, the rules state;
"Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight forwards if Swooping."
So, this means while it is Swooping, you can't change its flight mode with a Run. You either elect to Run while Gliding, and move D6", or you elect to Run while Swooping and move 2d6". You can't elect to Run while Swooping and roll d6", nor can you elect to Run while Gliding and roll 2d6" to start Swooping.
Assuming that running is not movement as per the rules is a very valid alternative. That's what you do in the "MOVEment" phase. Anything else is moving the model physically but not in the sense of moving as per the rules.
That may not be the most common perspective but perfectly valid nonetheless. Using "run" as a keyword separately from "move".
If an FMC could change flight modes while running, it would give them the advantage of moving up to 24" and then declaring glide to move 12" and charge next turn. I don't think that's the case. If it was, people would have been doing it since 7th dropped and this entire thing wouldn't have been a point of contention.
That being said, the distinction made in the kdk codex that it arrives by deep strike and not deep strike reserves allows them to change flight modes upon arrival, or rather, choose their flight mode when summoned. The rules do not support the idea that deep strike=deepstrike reserves. Deep strike reserves is the rule that prevents them from doing anything but swooping upon arrival. Kdk removes the word "reserves" that carries the restriction.
RAW, daemonkin FMC's can choose flight modes upon being summoned. No amount of inpoliteness and aggressive speech will change the rulebooks, or anyone's mind.
Except under run it does not say 'this does not count as a move' it says 'may immediately move'
Automatically Appended Next Post: Normally a FMC couldnt change flight mode when it runs since it would have chosen it when it moved in the movement phase. But on the turn it deepstrikes it doesnt get to move since deepstrike prevents it...so if it runs that turn it can choose the mode.
chaosmarauder wrote: Except under run it does not say 'this does not count as a move' it says 'may immediately move'
Automatically Appended Next Post: Normally a FMC couldnt change flight mode when it runs since it would have chosen it when it moved in the movement phase. But on the turn it deepstrikes it doesnt get to move since deepstrike prevents it...so if it runs that turn it can choose the mode.
I was checking the BRB and as you say, It make you choose once for that turn, so yes, running after deep strike would let you choose (but running negates you from shooting and/or charging, unless something grants it the power)
Agreed, I wouldnt do it for a shooty FMC, but a melee FMC you trade shooting to put it into gliding mode on the turn it deepstrikes sets it up so it can charge the next turn
Dozer Blades wrote: Anyone with some knowledge of the rules should know running is considered movement with respect to the rule set.
As I said, not all changing of position is considered "moving". I couldn't remember them all and didn't feel like looking up Running at the time. In addition, using the question allows people to think about the situation and research themselves.
Also charging is considered a movement, I'm working right now, but will check the BRB later.
But again, You are able to Run after DS.
But if you have no mode yet, you can't define how would you run, so you have to choose a flying mode at that moment to know how much it can Run. This would be the first time you choose a flying mode for that turn (and change from none to Swooping or Gliding)
RUN wrote:At times, warriors may have to redeploy quickly, literally running from cover to cover or simply concentrating on movement and giving up their chance to shoot. In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing. Roll a D6 to determine the maximum Run distance for the entire unit. Models in the unit may then immediately move up to that distance in inches. They may choose not to move after the roll is made, but still count as having Run.
Running movement is not slowed by difficult terrain but models running through dangerous terrain must test as normal. Units that Run in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the following Assault phase.
And in Assault Phase there is a sub topic named: CHARGE MOVE
blaktoof wrote: If you look at gliding under FMC it separates move and runs
If a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves, Runs, and charges exactly like a jump monstrous creature
so running and charging are not the same as moves.
you cannot change flight modes when you run.
Run is defined as a move. So, incorrect again
incorrect as always you are.
When a model moves it moves.
When a model runs, it moves.
When a model charges, it moves.
When a model falls back, it moves.
When a model is tank shocked, it moves.
But all of these things are one type of move, and not the other type of move.
This is why under gliding it says "moves, runs, or charges" there is the movement phase move, then there is the distance a model moves from things that are not moving, ie run/charge. Which again, is why under "gliding" it states "moves, runs, charges" because the model moves for all of those, but only one of them is during the models move.
If you think a model can change its movement mode when it moves[movement phase] or during anytime it moves [movement phase, run, charge, fallback, etc] is two different things. Most people agree models change their movement mode during the movement phase move[the move that is listed under glide, not the run, charge for example] otherwise you could have swooping models change gliding modes during the start of assault move and assault things.
So your contention, entirely unsupported by any rules, is that there are types of move?
Nonsense, again.
so you contend anything that allows a FMC to move;
move, run, charge, fallback, etc allows you to elect to change flight modes.
Like always in every post you do not state an actual stance or any rules support for anything you say, so as always it is hard to say if you are trolling or actually stating anything when your statements consist solely of things like "run is defined as a move. so incorrect again". are you saying all things that move a model are move and you can change flight mode during any of them, or something else entirely? Do you have a rules quote? Can you clarify so I can tell if your post is an actual discussion on anything, or something to just ignore.
Like always in every post you do not state an actual stance or any rules support for anything you say, so as always it is hard to say if you are trolling or actually stating anything when your statements consist solely of things like "run is defined as a move. so incorrect again". are you saying all things that move a model are move and you can change flight mode during any of them, or something else entirely? Do you have a rules quote? Can you clarify so I can tell if your post is an actual discussion on anything, or something to just ignore.
He just wants to be the last person to say something, so everyone will think he's right, when in fact, people just gave up arguing with him.
Actual rules quotes were already provided in this thread disproving his position. He claims those words don't mean what they actually mean.
blaktoof wrote: If you think a model can change its movement mode when it moves[movement phase] or during anytime it moves [movement phase, run, charge, fallback, etc] is two different things. Most people agree models change their movement mode during the movement phase move[the move that is listed under glide, not the run, charge for example] otherwise you could have swooping models change gliding modes during the start of assault move and assault things.
Actually, the rule is
Changing Flight Mode wrote:
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
It never mentions "Movement Phase", but since movement Phase is the normal first time a model moves in it's turn, it's when it choses mode.
If it chose mode on Movement phase, can't change it willingly until the first move of it's next turn.
As swooping ALWAYS must move on the movement phase, it ALWAYS must chose on movement phase.
If it were Gliding, it can make no move on movement phase and chose to change movement if it runs (not in charge because swooping can't charge), but in my opinion this would be completelly useless since it's better move on movement phase than be limited to a dice roll movement on shooting phase.
Most people agree to change mode in movement phase, because most people move for the first time in movement phase, and if you move for the first time that turn, you must declare wich mode are you using... if you were Gliding, and move, and doesn't say anything, you chose to keep gliding. even if you run later, you already moved in a mode that turn, and that mode will last till your next turn.
blaktoof wrote: If you think a model can change its movement mode when it moves[movement phase] or during anytime it moves [movement phase, run, charge, fallback, etc] is two different things. Most people agree models change their movement mode during the movement phase move[the move that is listed under glide, not the run, charge for example] otherwise you could have swooping models change gliding modes during the start of assault move and assault things.
Actually, the rule is
Changing Flight Mode wrote:
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
It never mentions "Movement Phase", but since movement Phase is the normal first time a model moves in it's turn, it's when it choses mode.
If it chose mode on Movement phase, can't change it willingly until the first move of it's next turn.
As swooping ALWAYS must move on the movement phase, it ALWAYS must chose on movement phase.
If it were Gliding, it can make no move on movement phase and chose to change movement if it runs (not in charge because swooping can't charge), but in my opinion this would be completelly useless since it's better move on movement phase than be limited to a dice roll movement on shooting phase.
Most people agree to change mode in movement phase, because most people move for the first time in movement phase, and if you move for the first time that turn, you must declare wich mode are you using... if you were Gliding, and move, and doesn't say anything, you chose to keep gliding. even if you run later, you already moved in a mode that turn, and that mode will last till your next turn.
I agree it never mentions the movement phase.
under turn summary:
2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.
so there is a 'move' that is only the move you do during the movement phase.
and there are other times models move, but are not that move.
this is shown under "Gliding" for FMC.
If a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves, runs, and charges exactly as a jump monstrous creature.
The above shows moves as separate from run, and charge. Now in both run and charge a model can move, but they separated out move from those other things that allow a model to move, showing that it is the move from the movement phase. If all things=move, they could have easily just said "if a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves exactly as a jump monstrous creature" however they did not.
Looking back at "changing flight mode"- which you quoted it begs the question is "move" here the movement move, or any move. It does not say anytime the model moves, but it also does not say at the start of the movement phase. They obviously took the time to separate move from run, and charge[which both move models] this could be showing that move is different than run and charge, even though all move the model.
Looking forward under "swooping"
It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24"
This is the whole of that part of the rule.
A flying monstrous creature that elects to run can move up to 2d6" straight forwards
both things move the model, but only one is the move during movement. Ie the move listed first in gliding, and possibly the move listed under changing flight modes.
also of note this has a possible rules conflict, if move is truly generic and anytime it says move anywhere move=move then if a model must move at least 12" and it rolls less than 12 on 2d6" to run it is not following a must, it also technically has permission to run 12"-24" as that is how it must move, and we are told under run it can move 2d6". If the run move = move= any move than it must move at least 12" when it runs and can move up to 24" and also has the rule that it can move 2d6". So either there are different things that can move a model, or all things that move a model are move.
I lean to if it says move then it means the movement phase, unless it also specifies moving at some other time like charge, run, fallback.
I think that interpreting that anywhere in the brb/codexes that, unless specified, 'move' always = 'movement phase' could have wide reaching, unforseen implications.
It is much simpler I think to count run, charge as moving as well. Especially since they state in those rules to make a 'move' and do not state that they do not count as making a 'move'.
And in your swooping contradiction of 'run might have to be 12-24', the way it is written overrides the 'must move 12-24' specifically by saying if it runs then it moves 2D6.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The whole point of how we got into this rabbit hole was...if a BT summoned FMC arrives NOT from deep strike reserves, then RAW it arrives stateless (neither swooping nor gliding) because there is no clause for this in FMC deployment rules.
Therefor, if it elects to Run in the shooting phase of the turn it deepstrikes, it would have to select a mode before you could actually move the model.
This would allow it to change to gliding on the turn it deepstrikes, then charge the next turn.
Like always in every post you do not state an actual stance or any rules support for anything you say, so as always it is hard to say if you are trolling or actually stating anything when your statements consist solely of things like "run is defined as a move. so incorrect again". are you saying all things that move a model are move and you can change flight mode during any of them, or something else entirely? Do you have a rules quote? Can you clarify so I can tell if your post is an actual discussion on anything, or something to just ignore.
He just wants to be the last person to say something, so everyone will think he's right, when in fact, people just gave up arguing with him.
Actual rules quotes were already provided in this thread disproving his position. He claims those words don't mean what they actually mean.
Rule one. Seriously, is it so tricky?
Run is defined as a move. The rules quotes prove this. Maybe your stance could use some rules, or links to this mythical proof?
blaktoof wrote: If you think a model can change its movement mode when it moves[movement phase] or during anytime it moves [movement phase, run, charge, fallback, etc] is two different things. Most people agree models change their movement mode during the movement phase move[the move that is listed under glide, not the run, charge for example] otherwise you could have swooping models change gliding modes during the start of assault move and assault things.
Actually, the rule is
Changing Flight Mode wrote:
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.
It never mentions "Movement Phase", but since movement Phase is the normal first time a model moves in it's turn, it's when it choses mode.
If it chose mode on Movement phase, can't change it willingly until the first move of it's next turn.
As swooping ALWAYS must move on the movement phase, it ALWAYS must chose on movement phase.
If it were Gliding, it can make no move on movement phase and chose to change movement if it runs (not in charge because swooping can't charge), but in my opinion this would be completelly useless since it's better move on movement phase than be limited to a dice roll movement on shooting phase.
Most people agree to change mode in movement phase, because most people move for the first time in movement phase, and if you move for the first time that turn, you must declare wich mode are you using... if you were Gliding, and move, and doesn't say anything, you chose to keep gliding. even if you run later, you already moved in a mode that turn, and that mode will last till your next turn.
I agree it never mentions the movement phase.
under turn summary:
2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.
so there is a 'move' that is only the move you do during the movement phase.
and there are other times models move, but are not that move.
this is shown under "Gliding" for FMC.
If a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves, runs, and charges exactly as a jump monstrous creature.
The above shows moves as separate from run, and charge. Now in both run and charge a model can move, but they separated out move from those other things that allow a model to move, showing that it is the move from the movement phase. If all things=move, they could have easily just said "if a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves exactly as a jump monstrous creature" however they did not.
Looking back at "changing flight mode"- which you quoted it begs the question is "move" here the movement move, or any move. It does not say anytime the model moves, but it also does not say at the start of the movement phase. They obviously took the time to separate move from run, and charge[which both move models] this could be showing that move is different than run and charge, even though all move the model.
Looking forward under "swooping"
It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24"
This is the whole of that part of the rule.
A flying monstrous creature that elects to run can move up to 2d6" straight forwards
both things move the model, but only one is the move during movement. Ie the move listed first in gliding, and possibly the move listed under changing flight modes.
also of note this has a possible rules conflict, if move is truly generic and anytime it says move anywhere move=move then if a model must move at least 12" and it rolls less than 12 on 2d6" to run it is not following a must, it also technically has permission to run 12"-24" as that is how it must move, and we are told under run it can move 2d6". If the run move = move= any move than it must move at least 12" when it runs and can move up to 24" and also has the rule that it can move 2d6". So either there are different things that can move a model, or all things that move a model are move.
I lean to if it says move then it means the movement phase, unless it also specifies moving at some other time like charge, run, fallback.
Then that is a contradiction inside the rules. If following that when it say "move" alone means "move during mvoement phase" then:
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and Ipassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying onstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight Forwards if Swooping.
So, A FMC that is Swooping can't run over other models and/or impassable terrain? Because the rule is for when it "moves" not when it "runs" (According to your reasoning)
Anyway, the first rule of "must move" is later overriden by "If Elects to Run Can Move up to 2D6" "
But Well, going back to the original point. If the FMCDS, It can't move on the movement phase, but elects to run, wich mode will be running? Because Gliding runs 1D6 (any direction), and swooping moves 2D6" (straight Forward).
I'm asking you How would you play it.
1) You change flight mode before "its move" not before "it moves" as people contest. The former can only refer to a movement phase move the later to any action that involves moving.
2) All reserves arrive at the start of the turn. If you disagree with this you must clearly mark your post HYWPI as there is no RaW that states the arrival occurs at any other time.
3) Deepstrike and Deepstrike Reserve are the same thing RaW. As the rules tell you Deepstrike Reserve is another name for Deepstrike. For instance I say Codex: Space Marines is sometimes called Codex Vanilla Marines, that means whenever I say Codex Vanilla Marines I am talking about Codex Space Marines.
4) Deepstriking is movement as you are prohibited from moving further after doing it.
5) Deepstriking forces you to be in Swooping mode.
These are all facts that ate undisputable RaW. The ONLY conclusion is that no RaW anywhere supports changing flight mode the turn you are summoned by the BT. None.
FlingitNow wrote: 2) All reserves arrive at the start of the turn. If you disagree with this you must clearly mark your post HYWPI as there is no RaW that states the arrival occurs at any other time.
Not specifically stated, yet not specifically exempted, either. Considering what else you get wrong in this post, retitle to "Here are what I view as facts on it".
FlingitNow wrote: 3) Deepstrike and Deepstrike Reserve are the same thing RaW. As the rules tell you Deepstrike Reserve is another name for Deepstrike. For instance I say Codex: Space Marines is sometimes called Codex Vanilla Marines, that means whenever I say Codex Vanilla Marines I am talking about Codex Space Marines.
Out of Context statement is not proof. The sentence defining Deep Strike Reserves is not even constructed the same way as your example of proof.
Deep Strike Reserves is only the state of being in Reserves and declared to be Deep Striking when Arriving, read the whole sentence. It has nothing to do with the actual Arrival process.
FlingitNow wrote: 4) Deepstriking is movement as you are prohibited from moving further after doing it.
Treated as or counts as. It is never explicitly stated as such. If it is not explicit, it is not a fact.
FlingitNow wrote: 5) Deepstriking forces you to be in Swooping mode.
Incomplete or misquoting. Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves forces you to be in Swooping Mode. Deep Strike alone is never a condition, and while Deep Strike Reserves is part of the Deep Strike Rules, they are not equal in definition.
FlingitNow wrote: These are all facts that ate undisputable RaW. The ONLY conclusion is that no RaW anywhere supports changing flight mode the turn you are summoned by the BT. None.
Opinions stated with facts are not indisputable RAW.
2) It is specifically stated that on turn 4 reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Do you have permission to arrive at a different time on other turns? If not you can't. So yes this is an indisputable fact RaW. Please clearly mark your post HYWPI if you want to argue against this point.
3) "you must tell your opponent that is will arrive by Deepstrike (sometimes called Deepstrike Reserve)". This is saying arriving by deepstrike and arriving by deepstrike reserve are the same thing. There is no other mention of Deepstrike reserve in the entire Derp Strike section.
4) "Treated as" and "counts as" are identical to "is" from a rules perspective. Deepstriking is moving RaW.
5) Arriving via deepstrike reserve is the same as arriving via deepstrike. QED.
None of what I stated where opinions they were RaW facts. As you ate arguing against RaW for your own version of the rules you should clearly mark your post as HYWPI according to the tenets.
FlingitNow wrote: 2) It is specifically stated that on turn 4 reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Do you have permission to arrive at a different time on other turns? If not you can't. So yes this is an indisputable fact RaW. Please clearly mark your post HYWPI if you want to argue against this point.
It isn't. Can you misquote a rule applicable to turn 4 only and apply it to every other turn? No. No you can't. This isn't how you read rules. Please mark your post as not RAW if you ware making stuff up.
FlingitNow wrote: 2) It is specifically stated that on turn 4 reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Do you have permission to arrive at a different time on other turns? If not you can't. So yes this is an indisputable fact RaW. Please clearly mark your post HYWPI if you want to argue against this point.
It isn't. Can you misquote a rule applicable to turn 4 only and apply it to every other turn? No. No you can't. This isn't how you read rules. Please mark your post as not RAW if you ware making stuff up.
So where is your permission to arrive at a different time on other turns? Are you claiming you arrive at a different time on every turn except 4?Are you also claiming arriving from on going reserves happens before normal reserves as that is also explicitly stated to be start of the turn?
2) It is because the Blood Tithe is a special snow flake brigade try to differentiate between it and normal DS due to them arriving at the start of the turn just like normal reserves. Apparently being the same as something means you are different.
3) agreed.
4) By definition if you can't move FURTHER you have moved.
Only problem is, deep strike and deep strike reserves are not the same thing. So your point, that you so vehemently defend, has little to no bearing on the discussion anymore.
Telling people continually to mark their posts HYWPI is arrogant, annoying, rude, and doesn't help anyone come to a conclusion about the actual rules interactions here. Try politely being a part of the discussion instead and people might actually listen to what you're saying. Not to mention the strange sweeping generalizations you're making about daemonkin players. It makes you seem like youre arguing from anger or prejudice.
In any case, deep strike(sometimes called deep strike reserve) does not mean they are the same thing. Apples(sometimes called macintosh apples) are tasty. That statement does not mean mean that apples always carry all the characteristics of macintosh apples. It actually means that macintosh apples are an apple with specific things that make it different from other apples. Just like this situation, where a model is deep striking yet not coming from reserves. This would be one of the instances where it isn't called deep strike reserves.
But to DS, you have to have been coming from reserves, as the first paragraph of the DS rules state.
If you're claiming that they don't arrive from reserve but DS anyway, then you break the rules.
Does Daemonkin say that they arrive from reserve/are treated as arriving from reserve? No. So RAW breaks. It's up to us to use existing rules to say how they arrive and being treated as arriving from reserve is the only logical solution that doesn't break rules.
That said, it's interesting to note that through popular consesus, the ITC have FAQ'd it so that they can arrive in Gliding mode. So in tournaments, you can get Gliding Bloodtithe Thirsters.
Sloppy rules writing makes for a great player community!
Wow, man. Why don't you mark your posts HYWPI. It's obviously not a clear rules interaction. You're not going to bully me into blindly accepting your interpretation by repeating "mark your posts HYWPI" over and over again. That's the conversational equivalent of poking someone in the chest repeatedly and saying "i'm right! I'm right! I'm right! You're wrong! Show everyone you're wrong!"
Am i the only one who thinks this isn't helpful for the discussion? I've read your rules quotes and disagree with you. The way you're reading them is not the way it makes sense to me. So at the most diplomatic i can be i would say both of our posts are HYWPI until a faq exists. What i know of the english language tells me that your interpretation is flawed. I'm just trying to have a discussion that doesnt consist of being arrogant and rude to anyone with a differing opinion.
It really seems like at this point, you're deliberately trying to annoy people out of this thread by repeatedly telling them to mark their posts HYWPI so that you get to be the last guy in this thread to assert his opinion. That's not cool, man.
I hold that deep strike and deep strike reserves are not the same thing. I gave an analogy using the english language that it isn't the same, and rather the two terms being used in that sentence suggest deep strike reserves is different to deep strike in the same way a specific object is different from the general group of objects, as referenced.
Anyone else think continually barking at people to mark their posts HYWPI is ridiculous and rude? We're supposed to be a community of people trying to enjoy a hobby. I don't have anything against you, i just want to have a discussion with you. We're all in this together, at the end of the day.
FlingitNow wrote: 2) It is specifically stated that on turn 4 reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Do you have permission to arrive at a different time on other turns? If not you can't. So yes this is an indisputable fact RaW. Please clearly mark your post HYWPI if you want to argue against this point.
Let's try the actual rule:
BRB wrote:When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
So, while it never specifically states that the unit is being deployed during the Movement Phase after "arriving", but it never states that it doesn't, either. I've bolded the interesting caveat that would be redundant if the actual deploying was not occuring during movement, and that caveat is what puts some matter of doubt in to your #2 statement. Note, I'm not saying #2 is actually wrong, I'm just saying that there is evidence to imply it is not as hard fact as you wish.
FlingitNow wrote: 3) "you must tell your opponent that is will arrive by Deepstrike (sometimes called Deepstrike Reserve)". This is saying arriving by deepstrike and arriving by deepstrike reserve are the same thing. There is no other mention of Deepstrike reserve in the entire Derp Strike section.
Again, misquoting to remove context doesn't help. The full sentence is, "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)." Deleting portions of a sentence does not make it RAW.
FlingitNow wrote: 4) "Treated as" and "counts as" are identical to "is" from a rules perspective. Deepstriking is moving RaW.
The "treated as" or "counts as" is never actually stated in the rules. Deep Strike is treated as movement by the rest of the rules, but is never actually stated as such on its own.
FlingitNow wrote: 5) Arriving via deepstrike reserve is the same as arriving via deepstrike. QED.
You do not arrive via deep strike reserve, you arrive FROM Deep Strike Reserve. And yes, that is actually how Deep Strike Reserve is referenced in every instance of any rule outside of its initial definition. You arrive from a location, not a mode of movement.
FlingitNow wrote: None of what I stated where opinions they were RaW facts. As you ate arguing against RaW for your own version of the rules you should clearly mark your post as HYWPI according to the tenets.
Incorrect. I have pointed out the flaws in your statements and demonstrated them as HYWPI.
sorry, i'm a bit confused. Having read the thread, it seems to me like one person has adopted the approach I outlined from the start of the discussion and maintained that attitude the whole time. I wasnt calling out the camp that thinks you have to start swooping. I was calling out FlingItNow.
I dont think it's fair or accurate to say anyone else did it before and apparently forced him to start acting this way, as you said. What i've seen is that he has been belligerent about this issue from the start of this thread. When i made a polite appeal to him that he might stop being rude, and then attempted to continue with the discussion, he retorted with yet another repeat of "mark your post HYWPI."
I just don't see anyone else behaving the same way. Or giving anyone a reason to behave that way. So i believe i can blame him for his actions. The first post he put in this thread was a bit disrespectful. It's been his general attitude throughout this thread and others i've seen him comment in.
Regardless i don't want to blame anyone. I want to have a discussion on the topic at hand that might reach some conclusion. I think that his method of "argumentation" isn't being helpful here. Perhaps i'm in the minority for this viewpoint.
On topic, i stand by my analogy and interpretation that deep strike and deep strike reserves are not the same thing. Can anyone show that every deep striking instance is deep strike reserves?
So, while it never pecifically states that the unit is being deployed during the Movement Phase after "arriving", but it never states that it doesn't, either. I've bolded the interesting caveat that would be redundant if the actual deploying was not occuring during movement, and that caveat is what puts some matter of doubt in to your #2 statement.
So nothing about units arriving at a different timne on turns 2&3. So no specifics at all on when reserves arrive. Yet we have 2 rules stating they arrive during the start of the turn (for turn 4 and Ongoing Reserves).
Again, misquoting to remove context doesn't help. The full sentence is, "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)." Deleting portions of a sentence does not make it RAW.
The end result is the same. Arriving by DS and by DS Reserve are the same thing RaW.
The "treated as" or "counts as" is never actually stated in the rules. Deep Strike is treated as movement by the rest of the rules, but is never actually stated as such on its own.
Nope but "move further" is... Deep striking is moving.
You do not arrive via deep strike reserve, you arrive FROM Deep Strike Reserve. And yes, that is actually how Deep Strike Reserve is referenced in every instance of any rule outside of its initial definition. You arrive from a location, not a mode of movement.
Sticking to your "what the rules say is wrong" stance?
BrB page 68 wrote: If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode.
Please mark your posts clearly as HYWPI as you are breaking the tenets with this stance.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: Where is rules support for every deep strike meaning you have come from reserves?
BRB DEEP STRIKE wrote:
Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
Maybe there? on the Deep Strike Rule? (Not in the Deep Strike Reserve from the Reserves section)
----
Deep Strike is no Movement, saying you can't move any further in the movement phase doesn't mean that was a movement. Nowhere in the BRB says "Treat Deep Strike as Movement"
Frozocrone wrote: But to DS, you have to have been coming from reserves, as the first paragraph of the DS rules state.
If you're claiming that they don't arrive from reserve but DS anyway, then you break the rules.
Does Daemonkin say that they arrive from reserve/are treated as arriving from reserve? No. So RAW breaks. It's up to us to use existing rules to say how they arrive and being treated as arriving from reserve is the only logical solution that doesn't break rules.
That said, it's interesting to note that through popular consesus, the ITC have FAQ'd it so that they can arrive in Gliding mode. So in tournaments, you can get Gliding Bloodtithe Thirsters.
Sloppy rules writing makes for a great player community!
I completely Agree with him.
Broken rules, no actual ruling, you have 2 choices: 1) Do as you please/stablish rules with your opponent/friends 2)Use the rules for the closest similar situation
From my point of view, the closest thing to a rule for a FMC arriving via DS is a FMC arriving via Deep Strike Reserves.
The rules you quoted are for a unit in your possession at the start of the game that has the deep strike rule in their codex entry. Not for units deep striking by other means such as gate of infinity. Or do you think that upon getting the power gate of infinity, the psyker has to start the game in reserve, even though he can't deepstrike yet?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or that the blood tithe thirster started the game in reserves, even though you had no idea he existed until 8 blood points were amassed, and the word reserves is explicitly left out of the relevant rule in codex kdk?
Deep Strike is a Special Rule, I quoted the Deep Strike Rule from the Special Rule section from the BRB. If you have any other quote for the Deep Strike Rule, please, enlight us with a textual quote. Maybe a Deep Strike Rule from those codex, as they have a special kind of Deep Strike.
The Deep Strike for Gate of Infinity or Blood Tithe Thirster do Scatter? How does it scatter, these rule specifies how many dices to scatter? or you just scatter like the normal Deep Strike rule says? and if it scatter on impassable terrain or other model, does it roll on DS mishap table? theses rules state that o you just do it because of the normal Deep Strike Rule says so?
Wallur wrote: You asked a question about Deep Strike.
Deep Strike is a Special Rule, I quoted the Deep Strike Rule from the Special Rule section from the BRB. If you have any other quote for the Deep Strike Rule, please, enlight us with a textual quote. Maybe a Deep Strike Rule from those codex, as they have a special kind of Deep Strike.
The Deep Strike for Gate of Infinity or Blood Tithe Thirster do Scatter? How does it scatter, these rule specifies how many dices to scatter? or you just scatter like the normal Deep Strike rule says? and if it scatter on impassable terrain or other model, does it roll on DS mishap table? theses rules state that o you just do it because of the normal Deep Strike Rule says so?
The rule you quoted is for models arriving from deep strike reserves.
Models that are not in reserves [ie they are on the table] are not in reserves, and can deep strike by things like "gate". The are not required to have the special rule deep strike, nor are they in reserves, nor do they have a requirement that they were in reserves at the start of the game. We are also not told they are "Arriving from/by deep strike reserves" which is being in reserves and arriving from that state by the rules for deep strike.
hence, not indisputable. 
