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2) We are not talking about entering from reserves, so that would have no point.

3) I agree with you that Deep Strike and Deep Strike reserves should be treated exactly the same way, and are the same and have the same ruling.

4) I disagree that Deep Strike is movement. It won't let you move any further, but that's not enought to consider it a movement.

5) Yes.

2) It is because the Blood Tithe is a special snow flake brigade try to differentiate between it and normal DS due to them arriving at the start of the turn just like normal reserves. Apparently being the same as something means you are different.

3) agreed.

4) By definition if you can't move FURTHER you have moved.

5) Thank you.

Only problem is, deep strike and deep strike reserves are not the same thing. So your point, that you so vehemently defend, has little to no bearing on the discussion anymore.

Telling people continually to mark their posts HYWPI is arrogant, annoying, rude, and doesn't help anyone come to a conclusion about the actual rules interactions here. Try politely being a part of the discussion instead and people might actually listen to what you're saying. Not to mention the strange sweeping generalizations you're making about daemonkin players. It makes you seem like youre arguing from anger or prejudice.

In any case, deep strike(sometimes called deep strike reserve) does not mean they are the same thing. Apples(sometimes called macintosh apples) are tasty. That statement does not mean mean that apples always carry all the characteristics of macintosh apples. It actually means that macintosh apples are an apple with specific things that make it different from other apples. Just like this situation, where a model is deep striking yet not coming from reserves. This would be one of the instances where it isn't called deep strike reserves.

But to DS, you have to have been coming from reserves, as the first paragraph of the DS rules state.

If you're claiming that they don't arrive from reserve but DS anyway, then you break the rules.

Does Daemonkin say that they arrive from reserve/are treated as arriving from reserve? No. So RAW breaks. It's up to us to use existing rules to say how they arrive and being treated as arriving from reserve is the only logical solution that doesn't break rules.

That said, it's interesting to note that through popular consesus, the ITC have FAQ'd it so that they can arrive in Gliding mode. So in tournaments, you can get Gliding Bloodtithe Thirsters.

Sloppy rules writing makes for a great player community!

Where is rules support for every deep strike meaning you have come from reserves?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
But what if you state them over and over again? Surely it becomes RAW eventually..

It is quite obvious the agenda of some here.

Only problem is, deep strike and deep strike reserves are not the same thing.

Please clearly mark your post HYWPI as the rules I quoted directly say the opposite of this.

Wow, man. Why don't you mark your posts HYWPI. It's obviously not a clear rules interaction. You're not going to bully me into blindly accepting your interpretation by repeating "mark your posts HYWPI" over and over again. That's the conversational equivalent of poking someone in the chest repeatedly and saying "i'm right! I'm right! I'm right! You're wrong! Show everyone you're wrong!"

Am i the only one who thinks this isn't helpful for the discussion? I've read your rules quotes and disagree with you. The way you're reading them is not the way it makes sense to me. So at the most diplomatic i can be i would say both of our posts are HYWPI until a faq exists. What i know of the english language tells me that your interpretation is flawed. I'm just trying to have a discussion that doesnt consist of being arrogant and rude to anyone with a differing opinion.

It really seems like at this point, you're deliberately trying to annoy people out of this thread by repeatedly telling them to mark their posts HYWPI so that you get to be the last guy in this thread to assert his opinion. That's not cool, man.

I hold that deep strike and deep strike reserves are not the same thing. I gave an analogy using the english language that it isn't the same, and rather the two terms being used in that sentence suggest deep strike reserves is different to deep strike in the same way a specific object is different from the general group of objects, as referenced.

Anyone else think continually barking at people to mark their posts HYWPI is ridiculous and rude? We're supposed to be a community of people trying to enjoy a hobby. I don't have anything against you, i just want to have a discussion with you. We're all in this together, at the end of the day.

 FlingitNow wrote:
2) It is specifically stated that on turn 4 reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Do you have permission to arrive at a different time on other turns? If not you can't. So yes this is an indisputable fact RaW. Please clearly mark your post HYWPI if you want to argue against this point.

Let's try the actual rule:

BRB wrote:When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

So, while it never specifically states that the unit is being deployed during the Movement Phase after "arriving", but it never states that it doesn't, either. I've bolded the interesting caveat that would be redundant if the actual deploying was not occuring during movement, and that caveat is what puts some matter of doubt in to your #2 statement. Note, I'm not saying #2 is actually wrong, I'm just saying that there is evidence to imply it is not as hard fact as you wish.

 FlingitNow wrote:
3) "you must tell your opponent that is will arrive by Deepstrike (sometimes called Deepstrike Reserve)". This is saying arriving by deepstrike and arriving by deepstrike reserve are the same thing. There is no other mention of Deepstrike reserve in the entire Derp Strike section.

Again, misquoting to remove context doesn't help. The full sentence is, "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)." Deleting portions of a sentence does not make it RAW.

 FlingitNow wrote:
4) "Treated as" and "counts as" are identical to "is" from a rules perspective. Deepstriking is moving RaW.

The "treated as" or "counts as" is never actually stated in the rules. Deep Strike is treated as movement by the rest of the rules, but is never actually stated as such on its own.

 FlingitNow wrote:
5) Arriving via deepstrike reserve is the same as arriving via deepstrike. QED.

You do not arrive via deep strike reserve, you arrive FROM Deep Strike Reserve. And yes, that is actually how Deep Strike Reserve is referenced in every instance of any rule outside of its initial definition. You arrive from a location, not a mode of movement.

 FlingitNow wrote:
None of what I stated where opinions they were RaW facts. As you ate arguing against RaW for your own version of the rules you should clearly mark your post as HYWPI according to the tenets.

Incorrect. I have pointed out the flaws in your statements and demonstrated them as HYWPI.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
You're not going to bully me into blindly accepting your interpretation

One side of the debate started with this as their opening strategy, you can't damn the other side for adopting it now.

@DarknessEternal

sorry, i'm a bit confused. Having read the thread, it seems to me like one person has adopted the approach I outlined from the start of the discussion and maintained that attitude the whole time. I wasnt calling out the camp that thinks you have to start swooping. I was calling out FlingItNow.

I dont think it's fair or accurate to say anyone else did it before and apparently forced him to start acting this way, as you said. What i've seen is that he has been belligerent about this issue from the start of this thread. When i made a polite appeal to him that he might stop being rude, and then attempted to continue with the discussion, he retorted with yet another repeat of "mark your post HYWPI."

I just don't see anyone else behaving the same way. Or giving anyone a reason to behave that way. So i believe i can blame him for his actions. The first post he put in this thread was a bit disrespectful. It's been his general attitude throughout this thread and others i've seen him comment in.

Regardless i don't want to blame anyone. I want to have a discussion on the topic at hand that might reach some conclusion. I think that his method of "argumentation" isn't being helpful here. Perhaps i'm in the minority for this viewpoint.

On topic, i stand by my analogy and interpretation that deep strike and deep strike reserves are not the same thing. Can anyone show that every deep striking instance is deep strike reserves?

So, while it never pecifically states that the unit is being deployed during the Movement Phase after "arriving", but it never states that it doesn't, either. I've bolded the interesting caveat that would be redundant if the actual deploying was not occuring during movement, and that caveat is what puts some matter of doubt in to your #2 statement.

So nothing about units arriving at a different timne on turns 2&3. So no specifics at all on when reserves arrive. Yet we have 2 rules stating they arrive during the start of the turn (for turn 4 and Ongoing Reserves).

Again, misquoting to remove context doesn't help. The full sentence is, "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)." Deleting portions of a sentence does not make it RAW.

The end result is the same. Arriving by DS and by DS Reserve are the same thing RaW.

The "treated as" or "counts as" is never actually stated in the rules. Deep Strike is treated as movement by the rest of the rules, but is never actually stated as such on its own.

Nope but "move further" is... Deep striking is moving.

You do not arrive via deep strike reserve, you arrive FROM Deep Strike Reserve. And yes, that is actually how Deep Strike Reserve is referenced in every instance of any rule outside of its initial definition. You arrive from a location, not a mode of movement.

Sticking to your "what the rules say is wrong" stance?

BrB page 68 wrote: If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode.

Please mark your posts clearly as HYWPI as you are breaking the tenets with this stance.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Where is rules support for every deep strike meaning you have come from reserves?

BRB DEEP STRIKE wrote:
Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Maybe there? on the Deep Strike Rule? (Not in the Deep Strike Reserve from the Reserves section)

----

Deep Strike is no Movement, saying you can't move any further in the movement phase doesn't mean that was a movement. Nowhere in the BRB says "Treat Deep Strike as Movement"

 Frozocrone wrote:
But to DS, you have to have been coming from reserves, as the first paragraph of the DS rules state.

If you're claiming that they don't arrive from reserve but DS anyway, then you break the rules.

Does Daemonkin say that they arrive from reserve/are treated as arriving from reserve? No. So RAW breaks. It's up to us to use existing rules to say how they arrive and being treated as arriving from reserve is the only logical solution that doesn't break rules.

That said, it's interesting to note that through popular consesus, the ITC have FAQ'd it so that they can arrive in Gliding mode. So in tournaments, you can get Gliding Bloodtithe Thirsters.

Sloppy rules writing makes for a great player community!

I completely Agree with him.

Broken rules, no actual ruling, you have 2 choices: 1) Do as you please/stablish rules with your opponent/friends 2)Use the rules for the closest similar situation

From my point of view, the closest thing to a rule for a FMC arriving via DS is a FMC arriving via Deep Strike Reserves.

The rules you quoted are for a unit in your possession at the start of the game that has the deep strike rule in their codex entry. Not for units deep striking by other means such as gate of infinity. Or do you think that upon getting the power gate of infinity, the psyker has to start the game in reserve, even though he can't deepstrike yet?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or that the blood tithe thirster started the game in reserves, even though you had no idea he existed until 8 blood points were amassed, and the word reserves is explicitly left out of the relevant rule in codex kdk?

You asked a question about Deep Strike.

Deep Strike is a Special Rule, I quoted the Deep Strike Rule from the Special Rule section from the BRB. If you have any other quote for the Deep Strike Rule, please, enlight us with a textual quote. Maybe a Deep Strike Rule from those codex, as they have a special kind of Deep Strike.

The Deep Strike for Gate of Infinity or Blood Tithe Thirster do Scatter? How does it scatter, these rule specifies how many dices to scatter? or you just scatter like the normal Deep Strike rule says? and if it scatter on impassable terrain or other model, does it roll on DS mishap table? theses rules state that o you just do it because of the normal Deep Strike Rule says so?

Wallur wrote:
You asked a question about Deep Strike.

Deep Strike is a Special Rule, I quoted the Deep Strike Rule from the Special Rule section from the BRB. If you have any other quote for the Deep Strike Rule, please, enlight us with a textual quote. Maybe a Deep Strike Rule from those codex, as they have a special kind of Deep Strike.

The Deep Strike for Gate of Infinity or Blood Tithe Thirster do Scatter? How does it scatter, these rule specifies how many dices to scatter? or you just scatter like the normal Deep Strike rule says? and if it scatter on impassable terrain or other model, does it roll on DS mishap table? theses rules state that o you just do it because of the normal Deep Strike Rule says so?

The rule you quoted is for models arriving from deep strike reserves.

Models that are not in reserves [ie they are on the table] are not in reserves, and can deep strike by things like "gate". The are not required to have the special rule deep strike, nor are they in reserves, nor do they have a requirement that they were in reserves at the start of the game. We are also not told they are "Arriving from/by deep strike reserves" which is being in reserves and arriving from that state by the rules for deep strike.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Can anyone show that every deep striking instance is deep strike reserves?

Yes, as has been done already in this thread

Deep Strike:
"Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves)"

Now, you're going to disagree with that, and all the counters to your argument have already been addressed.

So, since this is just going around in circles by this point, I think it's time to give it a rest.


As always, if in doubt, discuss with your opponent before the game.