Is there a consensus on FMC and changing flight modes in Daemonkin?

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**Captyn_Bob**

I can't be the only one that finds the abuse in this thread unnecessary and upsetting.

**JinxDragon**

Flingitnow,
Please quote the Rule you believe makes it 100% clear that Arriving Models Move onto the board at the Start of Turn. Keep in mind that the Arriving from Reserves Rule even mentioning the movement of non-Reserved Models is the problem for determining exactly when it is occurring on the timeline. The clear divide between the Rolls of Arrival and the Movement of the Arriving Models, with a requirement that one happens before the other, creates a sequence that makes it impossible for simultaneous occurrence. Rolling for Arrival has the Start-of-Turn terminology, so the movement of the Models must occur after this point in the time line... it has to fall somewhere after the Rolling for Arrival, Start of Turn, and movement of other Models, middle of Movement Phase.

As I said before:
Hack and Pasted from a time when the Start of Turn was during the Movement Phase and not updated to fit the Rule-set correctly!

**FlingitNow**

I never said move onto the board I said arrive. Page 135 column 2 paragraph 7, 3rd sentence "... arrives at the start of your fourth turn".

Also note how the entire "Arriving from Reserve" makes reference ONLY to the start of the turn and never references the Movement phase at any time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tonberry7 wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
People who want their BT summoned FMCs to glide don't believe in rules. They believe if they close their eyes and put their hands over theirs ears and wish it enough they are allowed to change the rules to give themselves an unfair advantage.

As mature and constructive as ever I see. Is it not perhaps the case that they just have a different interpretation of the rules than yourself?

However that interpretation is not based on the rules is it? It is based on what you want the rules to be and then you select parts of rules and try to make them fit your interpretation. Hence why your interpretation changed about 4 times during the long thread as you desperately tried to find different reasons of why you could break the process that applies to all DSing FMCs.

**JinxDragon**

Did you even notice that the Arriving from Reserve Rule contains clauses that relate to other Units normal Movement?
What Phase do Units normally Move in?

**Captyn_Bob**

The actual quote is " automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn ". This is from a section talking about reserve rolls. It is quite clear it is telling you not to make reserve rolls at the start of turn four, as they pass automatically. It is definitely Not , giving blanket permission to make all reserve moves at the start of the turn. Which makes sense, as the start of the turn is generally for wierd stuff, Not movement, which happens in the movement phase by default.

**FlingitNow**

JinxDragon wrote:
Did you even notice that the Arriving from Reserve Rule contains clauses that relate to other Units normal Movement?
What Phase do Units normally Move in?

Yes I noticed that. What phase comes after start of the turn? What do you do after all your units have arrived from reserves?

There is absolutely no doubt that RaW units arrive at the start of the turn. The reserve rules explicitly cover this.

**Tonberry7**

FlingitNow wrote:
I never said move onto the board I said arrive. Page 135 column 2 paragraph 7, 3rd sentence "... arrives at the start of your fourth turn".

Also note how the entire "Arriving from Reserve" makes reference ONLY to the start of the turn and never references the Movement phase at any time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tonberry7 wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
People who want their BT summoned FMCs to glide don't believe in rules. They believe if they close their eyes and put their hands over theirs ears and wish it enough they are allowed to change the rules to give themselves an unfair advantage.

As mature and constructive as ever I see. Is it not perhaps the case that they just have a different interpretation of the rules than yourself?

However that interpretation is not based on the rules is it? It is based on what you want the rules to be and then you select parts of rules and try to make them fit your interpretation. Hence why your interpretation changed about 4 times during the long thread as you desperately tried to find different reasons of why you could break the process that applies to all DSing FMCs.

I can confirm my interpretation is entirely based on the rules. You just don't agree.

**JinxDragon**

If the Rule is referencing something that occurs during the Movement Phase, how can it be stated that the Rule only references the Start of Turn?

**Charistoph**

blaktoof wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
Lies don't help your argument. DS rules make no mention of when you arrive as you well know.

Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase.

It should be noted that Conjuring and Summoning are not the same thing, and that a Summoned Daemonkin Bloodthirster no more comes from Reserves than a Spawn or Daemon Prince being placed via Chaos Marine Boon.

well a spawn/daemon prince from the boon table are replacing models that are already on the table

Review the Daemonkin rules. In those cases where a model is removed, the phrasing is exactly like the Boon table. In addition, the units are never stated as having come from Reserves, even when coming in new from Deep Strike

FlingitNow wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
Deep Strike rules imply coming in from Reserves, which is part of the Movement Phase.

Nope arriving from reserves happen at the start of the turn. Check the reserves rules.

No, rolling for Reserves happens at the start of the turn. Arriving is never stated as being before the Movement Phase. After all, one of the caveats is that you "move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move", isn't it?

Arriving is part of the start of the turn according to the rules. Check what happens if you don't roll a 3+ on turn 3. Also check where the arriving from reserves rules say they occur. They say you roll at the start of the turn then you arrive. Nothing there tells you to change to the movement phase for arrival so you can't.

It doesn't tell you to, no, but neither does it state that it stays there for deploying the model, especially with the caveats the end.

All a cow's opinion, anyway. Summoned units are not brought in from Reserves.

IXLoiero95XI wrote:It's states under flying Mounstrous creatures that units arriving by deepstrike always count as swooping.

Correction, it states this for arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. An FMC using Gate of Infinity is not required to be in Swooping Mode after.

Summoned models, while they do Deep Strike, are not brought in from Reserves like Conjured models are.

**chaosmarauder**

HIWPI

Bloodthirster can arrive in glide, simply cause its not OP, I would let an opponent do this (and cause I think the bloodthirster isnt coming from deep strike reserve)

But, I also think chars dieing only give blood point if it happens in challenge and thats how I play it (even though the grammar of the rule doesnt work like this I think thats the intent)

**IXLoiero95XI**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, like all fmc's, you Run, which is a move. As you never Declared a flight mode - you count as swooping, but do not do so via a declaration - you may then Declare you are gliding.

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until it's next turn."

Until it's next turn implies that it cannot voluntarily change flight modes during yours or your opponents turn. Since your swooping for that turn you cannot change.

Also because your swooping and you elect to run you roll 2D6" for your movement. You are only permitted to move after your determine the run distance. If you then declared your were going to glide you have then broken the rules because only a swooping model can roll 2D6.

**chaosmarauder**

The crux of the whole argument as to why the bloodthirster should be treated like other fmcs that arrive from deep strike reserves (and must arrive swooping)

Is...does the Bloodthirster arrive from deep strike reserve?

For summoned units using psychic powers it specifically states it in the brb.

...

For summoned units in the blood tithe table it glaringly, strikingly, plainly does not state that it is treated as coming from deep strike reserve.

So why do people keep insisting that it must arrive swooping?

**IXLoiero95XI**

chaosmarauder wrote:
The crux of the whole argument as to why the bloodthirster should be treated like other fmcs that arrive from deep strike reserves (and must arrive swooping)

Is...does the Bloodthirster arrive from deep strike reserve?

For summoned units using psychic powers it specifically states it in the brb.

...

For summoned units in the blood tithe table it glaringly, strikingly, plainly does not state that it is treated as coming from deep strike reserve.

So why do people keep insisting that it must arrive swooping?

Like I said I haven't read up on this, just going by the Rulebook lol.
What does it say in Khorne Deamon Kin? Can someone quote it?

**Charistoph**

IXLoiero95XI wrote:
What does it say in Khorne Deamon Kin? Can someone quote it?

From the Daemonkin book (excluding fluff text):

5 Daemontide:
A unit consisting of either 8 Bloodletters or 5 Flesh Hounds (controlling player’s choice) is summoned (see below) within 12” of any friendly unit with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule.

6 Harbingers of Blood and Brass:
A unit of consisting of either 3 Bloodcrushers or a Skull Cannon (controlling player’s choice) is summoned (see below) within 12” of any friendly unit with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule.

7 Dark Apotheosis:
Choose one friendly character with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule who does not have the Daemon of Khorne special rule on the board. That character must immediately take a Leadership test. If the test is failed, a Chaos Spawn is summoned (see below) within 6” of that character. If the test is passed, a Daemon Prince equipped with Warp-forged armour (and Daemonic Flight if the model being used to represent it has wings) is summoned within 6” of that character. In either case, the chosen character is removed as a casualty. If the chosen character was your Warlord, your opponent does not earn the Slay the Warlord Secondary Objective until the newly summoned model is removed as a casualty. Furthermore, the Daemon Prince will retain any Warlord Trait and Artefacts of Slaughter your Warlord had (ignoring the usual restrictions on these items).

8 Fury Unbound:
Choose one friendly character with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule who does not have the Daemon of Khorne special rule on the board. That character must immediately take a Leadership test. If the test is failed, that model is immediately removed as a casualty. If the test is passed, a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury is summoned (see below) within 6” of that character, and then the chosen character is removed as a casualty. If the chosen character was your Warlord and passed its Leadership test, your opponent does not earn the Slay the Warlord Secondary Objective until the newly summoned model is removed as a casualty. Furthermore, the Bloodthirster will retain any Warlord Trait your Warlord had.

Designer’s Note: When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike within range of the specified unit(s) on the board. If the unit’s Army List Entry has the option to take a banner of blood, an instrument of Chaos and/or the option to upgrade one model to a character, you may take any of these options for free provided you have the appropriate model available. Unless stated otherwise, a summoned unit cannot take any further upgrades or options. If you do not have enough models to place the entire unit on the board, place as many as you can – any excess are considered destroyed.

Note in Fury Unbound that the phrasing is just like Dark Apotheosis, which is just like the Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis of the Chaos Marine Boon Table.

Also note in the Designer's Note that summoned units, while arriving via Deep Strike, are not noted as arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, unlike the Psyker rules for Conjuring which are treated as coming in from Reserves.

**IXLoiero95XI**

Deepstrike and Deepstrike Reserves are the same thing. First paragraph under Deepstrike in the special rules section.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

**chaosmarauder**

Deepstrike is an action, deep strike reserve is a place.

All it says there is that if you want to deepstrike you have to place in reserve first.

Summoning bypasses the restriction on having to come from reserves. It does not say the unit came from reserves.

As proof, the psychic summoning in brb says to deepstrike AND it counts as being from deep strike reserves. i.e. 2 separate things - they wouldnt have to state that if they were the same thing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps quote the whole paragraph, its talking about placing a unit into reserves. It doesnt say that all deepstriking comes from reserves. Gate of infinity doesnt make your unit come from reserves.

**IXLoiero95XI**

chaosmarauder wrote:
Deepstrike is an action, deep strike reserve is a place.

All it says there is that if you want to deepstrike you have to place in reserve first.

Summoning bypasses the restriction on having to come from reserves. It does not say the unit came from reserves.

As proof, the psychic summoning in brb says to deepstrike AND it counts as being from deep strike reserves. i.e. 2 separate things - they wouldnt have to state that if they were the same thing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps quote the whole paragraph, its talking about placing a unit into reserves. It doesnt say that all deepstriking comes from reserves. Gate of infinity doesnt make your unit come from reserves.

As stated Deepstrike and Deepstrike Reserves are the same. Therefore Deepstrike Reserves is an action by your logic.

Wrong! It's states in the BRB "the new unit arrives via Deep Strike...and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.

Read your rules before quoting please.

**Captyn_Bob**

Pretty sure he said the same thing. Are you sure you aren't agreeing?

**IXLoiero95XI**

He didn't say the same thing.

**nosferatu1001**

IXLoiero95XI wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, like all fmc's, you Run, which is a move. As you never Declared a flight mode - you count as swooping, but do not do so via a declaration - you may then Declare you are gliding.

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until it's next turn."

Until it's next turn implies that it cannot voluntarily change flight modes during yours or your opponents turn. Since your swooping for that turn you cannot change.

Also because your swooping and you elect to run you roll 2D6" for your movement. You are only permitted to move after your determine the run distance. If you then declared your were going to glide you have then broken the rules because only a swooping model can roll 2D6.

1) awesome, now find where I declare swooping. I do not. I declare nothing. The unit counts as swooping, but no declaration was ever made.
2) a nonsense. I declare before I move. Which is before I run. Which is before I toll any dice. If you disagree, rule please.

**IXLoiero95XI**

No. It's states that you declare at the start of your move meaning when you are about to actually move the model. And like a said before run specifically states you may move only after you roll the distance.

**nosferatu1001**

IXLoiero95XI wrote:
No. It's states that you declare at the start of your move meaning when you are about to actually move the model. And like a said before run specifically states you may move only after you roll the distance.

Before you move. Rolling the dice is before I move, and declaring is befor I move. I choose when two events occur at the same time

Again, rule if you disagree.

**DarknessEternal**

nosferatu1001 wrote:

1) awesome, now find where I declare swooping. I do not. I declare nothing. The unit counts as swooping, but no declaration was ever made.
2) a nonsense. I declare before I move. Which is before I run. Which is before I toll any dice. If you disagree, rule please.

I know people are too obstinate to actually change their minds, but here are all the rules and logical flow that states a summoned Blood Thirster is Swooping.

1. summoning, Designer's Note under Blood Tithe Table:
"When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike..."

2. Deep Strike Reserves, in Deep Strike:
"Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves)"

3. Arriving by Deep Strike under Deep Strike:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further..."

4. Deployment under Flying Monstrous Creatures:
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."

5. Changing Flight Modes under Flying Monstrous Creatures:
"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn..."

So summon a guy, step 1. He Deep Strikes, step 2, which counts a move, step 3. Before that move, he must declare Swooping or Gliding, step 5, but is restricted to only choosing Swooping, step 4.

**Charistoph**

Misquoting is poor form.

DarknessEternal wrote:
2. Deep Strike Reserves, in Deep Strike:
"Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves)"

Now, for the whole paragraph:

BRB Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

*emphasis mine*

Placing a unit in Reserves for Deep Strike is sometimes called putting it in Deep Strike Reserves. Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are not the same thing.

DarknessEternal wrote:
4. Deployment under Flying Monstrous Creatures:
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."

Not in dispute. The fact is that a Summoned Daemon Prince or Bloodthirster is never stated as arriving from any Reserves, much less Deep Strike Reserves.

**DarknessEternal**

Um, you quoted me quoting the Rule Book that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are exactly the same thing.

**nosferatu1001**

So again, darkness. Prove a Declaration was made.

You just lept RIGHT over that step. Totally unsupported leap.

I never,ever declare. It counts as swooping. If I declare, it IS swooping. But I never declared.

So, again, NOT obstinate, you are just proven wrong.

**Frozocrone**

I would think that step 3 covers why DS Bloodthirsters can't change from Swooping to Gliding.

You can change your flight mode at the start of your move but step three prohibits you from moving further.

Since you can't actually start your move - you can't change flight modes.

**JinxDragon**

Frozocrone,
Many believe Deep Striking is Movement, pointing at the words 'any further' within that clause as evidence that the Model must have Moved.

**Charistoph**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Um, you quoted me quoting the Rule Book that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are exactly the same thing.

Then read what I wrote after which quoted the whole paragraph from the rulebook and emphasized the full sentence. You took a portion of the sentence out of context as your evidence. The sentence does not state that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing. It states that Deep Strike Reserves is putting a unit in Reserves and declaring that it will Deep Strike.

You misquoted to prove your point. Very Poor Form.

JinxDragon wrote:
Frozocrone,
Many believe Deep Striking is Movement, pointing at the words 'any further' within that clause as evidence that the Model must have Moved.

Deep Striking doesn't make a model fly, though, otherwise, we'd have to Snap Fire at Drop Pods.

**JinxDragon**

What does that have to do with the words 'any further,' and if they mean the Model has completed some sort of Movement?