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Conjuration BRB wrote:When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes. If the new unit suffers a Deep Strike mishap and ends up in Ongoing Reserves, it can Deep Strike anywhere on the board when it enters play.

So as from my point of view:
-Summoned units are treated as entering from reserves by DS.
-FMC that enter via DS enter Swooping.
-If the it enter game before or during the Start of the Movement Phase you can choose to change flying mode.

If enter during the start of the movement phase, you choose the order of events during the start of the phase, first enter, then change flying mode.

Charistoph, Drop Pods don't have types of flying modes, or move at all thats why it can't "fly"

Wallur wrote:

Conjuration BRB wrote:When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes. If the new unit suffers a Deep Strike mishap and ends up in Ongoing Reserves, it can Deep Strike anywhere on the board when it enters play.

So as from my point of view:
-Summoned units are treated as entering from reserves by DS.
-FMC that enter via DS enter Swooping.
-If the it enter game before or during the Start of the Movement Phase you can choose to change flying mode.

If enter during the start of the movement phase, you choose the order of events during the start of the phase, first enter, then change flying mode.

Daemonkin Summoning is not Conjuring. Conjuring is a Psyker power used by a model/unit with one of the Psyker rules. Summoning does not involve Psykers of any kind, therefore Conjuration rules mean as much to Summoning as Chapter Traits to a Necron Immortal. Summoning never states that the models are treated as coming from Reserves.

Wallur wrote:
Charistoph, Drop Pods don't have types of flying modes, or move at all thats why it can't "fly"

I know they don't. My point was that just because something Deep Strikes is no reason to think of that movement as Flying unless specifically directed to. FMCs only MUST consider their Deep Strike movement as Flying when it comes from Reserves or is Conjured. This does not hold true if they used Deep Strike via Gate of Infinity or Summoned as neither state the model is coming from Reserves.

They don't change their flight mode at the start of the Movement phase, but "... at the start of its move...". If you don't start its move then you can't change its flight mode.

This thread is getting all kinds of ridiculous...so I'll stoke the fires some more.

It says they can't move any FURTHER. So moving 0 inch is still getting a move, you just can't move more than that. So you do get to move, just not very far.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So again, darkness. Prove a Declaration was made.


You just lept RIGHT over that step. Totally unsupported leap.

I never,ever declare. It counts as swooping. If I declare, it IS swooping. But I never declared.

You did declare it Swooping. You're forced to pick Swooping or Gliding, but are restricted to only picking Swooping. Your choice is certainly limited, but it was made. The model can't be on the table unless you made such a declaration, as that has to be made prior to it's move (which was to be placed on the table). I spelled out the steps that produce this result explicitly.

If you're going to claim that because you didn't have a choice, it wasn't a declaration of it's movement mode, you're going to have to ignore most of the rules in the entire ruleset.

For example, Overwatch shooting doesn't breakdown because you aren't allowed to declare a target in the same way you normally declare targets.

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Charistoph wrote:
The sentence does not state that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.

Yes, that is in fact what it explicitly states. You want it to mean something else, but that's just not how those words work together. If we are using English, which we are, that sentence says Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
The sentence does not state that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.

Yes, that is in fact what it explicitly states. You want it to mean something else, but that's just not how those words work together. If we are using English, which we are, that sentence says Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are the same thing.

No, it does not.
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
does not equal
"Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

No matter how you try and slice it, they are not the same thing.

I can't really help you break down that sentence much further. It says that Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.

It does not say that Reserve is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.

If you're going to keep disagreeing, we have nothing further to discuss here. It's like you're arguing that the sky isn't blue. This is just how the language works. If we can't use the same one, we can't discuss anything.

DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

If you want a ****** RAW at the full:
Since the summoned FMC:
-Does not deployed at the start, so it doesn't start Gliding.
-It doesn't come from reserves, so you can't choose the mode.
-It doesn't come from DEEP STRIKE RESERVE it doesnt start Swooping.

So it starts immobilized? because it can't start in any of the normal movement modes it would.

If you want the CLOSEST definition to what is happening:

A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. -(NOT THE CASE SINCE IT IS SUMMONED)- If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode -(NEITHER THE CASE BECAUSE IT ISN'T KEPT IN RESERVE, IT IS SUMMONED SO YOU CAN'T CHOSE)-. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode. -(NOT 100% EXACTLY BUT IS THE CLOSEST SINCE IT ENTERS VIA SUMMON DEEP STRIKE)-

But again, I would let it change flight mode in the movement phase (with the penalties it carries)

I'm inclined to agree with Wallur. When RAW breaks down, it falls on us to apply the most sensible answer.

Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserve are obviously not the same thing - Dark Eternal how do you explain GoI ?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I can't really help you break down that sentence much further. It says that Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.

It does not say that Reserve is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.

If you're going to keep disagreeing, we have nothing further to discuss here. It's like you're arguing that the sky isn't blue. This is just how the language works. If we can't use the same one, we can't discuss anything.

No, what it does state is that when a model is put in Reserves to be arriving by Deep Strike, you must declare it, this is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves.

Deep Strike = A USR that describes a method of deploying a model, usually from Reserves.
Deep Strike Reserves = A status in Reserves denoting a unit to be later deployed via Deep Strike.

Chopping off 90% of the sentence to take it out of context is the problem.

Some times is by no means all the time .

Charistoph wrote:

No, what it does state is that when a model is put in Reserves to be arriving by Deep Strike, you must declare it, this is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves.

I'll make another attempt to teach you grammar.

What it says:
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

The part that says "Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" means Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves.

For your interpretation to be what it means, it would have to say:
When placing the unit in Reserve(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve), you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.

It does not. The placement of that clause is important.

Sorry but you are dead wrong . They are not always the same thing as the rules clearly tell us. I think you don't understand tbh .

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Sorry but you are dead wrong . They are not always the same thing as the rules clearly tell us. I think you don't understand tbh .

Please quote the place the rules say they are different.

It has already been clearly shown. Stop being so obtuse .

 DarknessEternal wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So again, darkness. Prove a Declaration was made.


You just lept RIGHT over that step. Totally unsupported leap.

I never,ever declare. It counts as swooping. If I declare, it IS swooping. But I never declared.

You did declare it Swooping. You're forced to pick Swooping or Gliding, but are restricted to only picking Swooping. Your choice is certainly limited, but it was made. The model can't be on the table unless you made such a declaration, as that has to be made prior to it's move (which was to be placed on the table). I spelled out the steps that produce this result explicitly.

If you're going to claim that because you didn't have a choice, it wasn't a declaration of it's movement mode, you're going to have to ignore most of the rules in the entire ruleset.

For example, Overwatch shooting doesn't breakdown because you aren't allowed to declare a target in the same way you normally declare targets.

No. Again, state my declaration. I am to,d it COUNTS AS SWOOPING. If I *declare* it to be swooping , it IS swooping. It is not counts as any longer

So I can declare it as gliding, it will count as swooping.

Again. Prove my declaration. You can't, so please, concede that counts is must necessarily mean it is not "is" otherwise it would actually BE "is" and not counts as . Or don't, but realise you are defending a disproven position.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserve are obviously not the same thing - Dark Eternal how do you explain GoI ?

I didn't said it was the same thing.

But:
"Deep Strike Reserve" and "Summoned Deep Strike" (to put it a name) is the closest thing in the BRB

It is clearly not coming from reserve to let you choose mode.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It has already been clearly shown. Stop being so obtuse .

If it has, provide a quote. I have done so showing that they are the same thing, as the rulebook says.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:

So I can declare it as gliding,

You are not allowed to declare it as Gliding. It has a restriction of "must be Swooping when Deep Striking".

You must declare Swooping or Gliding before you move. Deep Strike is a move. You are restricted to Swooping. Therefore, you declare Swooping. All of this has been shown already. I provided you with the rulebook text as well.

Your argument is akin to saying that you can shoot at a non-charging unit on Overwatch. It has "declare target" as a step, and restricts your choice. This is the same.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It has already been clearly shown. Stop being so obtuse .

If it has, provide a quote. I have done so showing that they are the same thing, as the rulebook says.

We have, but you'd prefer to just ignore almost a whole sentence of context. Have fun with that.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

So I can declare it as gliding,

You are not allowed to declare it as Gliding. It has a restriction of "must be Swooping when Deep Striking".

Incorrect, this is only in place when arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, not just Deep Strike. Reserves are not involved when Summoning or redeploying via Gate of Infinity. They are never actually mentioned.

Why did they specify in the psychic summoning rule in brb that the units arrive via deepstrike and are treated as coming from deep strike reserve, but in the blood tithe summoning did not specify this?

Because blood tithe summoning does not come from deep strike reserve.

The makers of the game felt the distinction was necessary, this proves that it is different.

And the rule people keep quoting about deep strike = deep strike reserves is in the context of when you put the model in resereve, which you definitely dont do with summoned units.

chaosmarauder, Charistoph et al have it exactly right regarding Deep Striking and Deep Strike Reserves not being the same thing. Deep Striking is when they arrive on the board, Deep Strike Reserve is a place where you put models that are nominated to arrive from Reserve by Deep Strike. This is a necessary distinction from normal Reserves as you are required to declare which units will be arriving by Deep Strike before the game starts.

BT Summoned units are never in Reserve and are therefore not arriving via Deep Strike Reserve. If they were considered to be coming from Reserves the rules would state this, as in the case for Conjured units.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It has already been clearly shown. Stop being so obtuse .

If it has, provide a quote. I have done so showing that they are the same thing, as the rulebook says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

So I can declare it as gliding,

You are not allowed to declare it as Gliding. It has a restriction of "must be Swooping when Deep Striking".

Ok, you're just being deliberately obtuse now. No, there is no such restriction. it states, as quoted and as you have deliberately altered above, that it COUNTS AS swooping. Your quote us utterly made up, and is not debating honestly.

I never, ever declare when deep striking. It counts as.

Answer that problem with your argument, or concede the point. Stop blithely ignoring and misquoting in the hope it won't be spotted.

Ok, since you like so much RAW, please, quote exactly where the BRB say that Deep Strike IS moving, not why you interpret it is moving.

But again, the closest thing found in the rulebook that better adjust to the situation of a FMC entering via Deep Strike, is entereing from reserves Via Deep Strike. The closest rule to a summoned unit (a unit that does not start the game neither on the board or in reserves) is the conjurating psychic power.

I KNOW THAT IS NOT THE SAME, but those rules are the closest rules we have to apply with units that Suddenly arrives from nowhere via Deep Strike.

Summoned units are not held in reserve.

RAW its neither gliding nor swooping until it moves.

Being an FMC though still gives it jink.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you think about it being neither swooping nor gliding is the same as gliding.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Summoned units are not held in reserve.

That is exactly what I said. IT IS NOT THE SAME. It's the closest.

Closest =/= Same
Closest -> 90%
Same -> 100%

But since there is no ruling about it, I'd go with the closest rule to it.

Also if it is not held in reserve neither treated as it... then you can't choose which mode is using. Since when placing the model for the first time on the table you are only allowed to choose mode when it is entering from reserves. This is not the case, you can't chose mode when you place it on the board. It doesn't start gliding because it only start gliding when it STARTS the gome on the table. It doesn't start Swooping because the wording has 1 extra disturbing word. "If it enters Via Deep Strike RESERVES, it enters swooping" if they worded "If it enters Via Deep Strike, it enters swooping" and this discussion wouldn't even exist. but well. If you want to treat it like entering from reserves so it let you choose than treating it from Deep Strike Reserves (that has 90% of the words in common with the situation here) keep arguing.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
RAW its neither gliding nor swooping until it moves.

Being an FMC though still gives it jink.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you think about it being neither swooping nor gliding is the same as gliding.

If it is neither swooping nor gliding,then it is immobilized, because it can only have 3 states:
Swooping, gliding, immobilized.
Also couldn't move any further, it also looks like immobilized (if you just want to make logic using of words)
It is immobilized, it can't jink.

Plus, discard immobilized, it start neither Gliding nor Swooping, you change the movement mode from NONE to GLIDING. there you change flying modes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is no ruling.
This is the closest Ruling:

FMC BRB wrote:If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

17 words

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

16 words

94% of the wording apply in this case, if GW would/ve just wrote "Deep Strike"
Also, as said before, the BRB says that "Deep Strike" is some times called "Deep Strike Reserves" , we could say that Deep Strike is treated as Deep Strike Reserves.

I think that is quite a stretch tbh .

Wallur wrote:
Ok, since you like so much RAW, please, quote exactly where the BRB say that Deep Strike IS moving, not why you interpret it is moving.

But again, the closest thing found in the rulebook that better adjust to the situation of a FMC entering via Deep Strike, is entereing from reserves Via Deep Strike. The closest rule to a summoned unit (a unit that does not start the game neither on the board or in reserves) is the conjurating psychic power.

I KNOW THAT IS NOT THE SAME, but those rules are the closest rules we have to apply with units that Suddenly arrives from nowhere via Deep Strike.

But the closest thing to it in another codex is the Chaos Marine Boon Table.

But just because it is the closest thing in the BRB, does not mean it is the rule. A good place to start for a House Rule, maybe, but then, the same thing should apply to a Lord of Change using Gate of Infinity, too.

Charistoph wrote:
But the closest thing to it in another codex is the Chaos Marine Boon Table.

If you mean "Spawnhood/Apotheosis" it says "place" that is way too different from "enter via Deep Strike"

Charistoph wrote:
But just because it is the closest thing in the BRB, does not mean it is the rule. A good place to start for a House Rule, maybe, but then, the same thing should apply to a Lord of Change using Gate of Infinity, too.

I know, but there is no rule that speifies anything, not the mode, not giving you the option to choose.

If you want to fluff this, something that enters via Deep Strike, is usually something comming at full speed, (Falling from the Skyies, erupting from down below or emergnig from a portal)not walking pacefully.

But well... you'll have to set this with your opponent (preferible before happening)

There's nothing much to talk about this since there is no actual rule for this.

If it were me I'll follow de rule for FMC entering via DS Res