Is there a consensus on FMC and changing flight modes in Daemonkin?

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**Dozer Blades**

You are promoting HIWPI.

**chaosmarauder**

Wallur wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
Summoned units are not held in reserve.

That is exactly what I said. IT IS NOT THE SAME. It's the closest.

Closest =/= Same
Closest -> 90%
Same -> 100%

But since there is no ruling about it, I'd go with the closest rule to it.

Also if it is not held in reserve neither treated as it... then you can't choose which mode is using. Since when placing the model for the first time on the table you are only allowed to choose mode when it is entering from reserves. This is not the case, you can't chose mode when you place it on the board. It doesn't start gliding because it only start gliding when it STARTS the gome on the table. It doesn't start Swooping because the wording has 1 extra disturbing word. "If it enters Via Deep Strike RESERVES, it enters swooping" if they worded "If it enters Via Deep Strike, it enters swooping" and this discussion wouldn't even exist. but well. If you want to treat it like entering from reserves so it let you choose than treating it from Deep Strike Reserves (that has 90% of the words in common with the situation here) keep arguing.

chaosmarauder wrote:
RAW its neither gliding nor swooping until it moves.

Being an FMC though still gives it jink.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you think about it being neither swooping nor gliding is the same as gliding.

If it is neither swooping nor gliding,then it is immobilized, because it can only have 3 states:
Swooping, gliding, immobilized.
Also couldn't move any further, it also looks like immobilized (if you just want to make logic using of words)
It is immobilized, it can't jink.

Plus, discard immobilized, it start neither Gliding nor Swooping, you change the movement mode from NONE to GLIDING. there you change flying modes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is no ruling.
This is the closest Ruling:

FMC BRB wrote:If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

17 words

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

16 words

94% of the wording apply in this case, if GW would/ve just wrote "Deep Strike"
Also, as said before, the BRB says that "Deep Strike" is some times called "Deep Strike Reserves" , we could say that Deep Strike is treated as Deep Strike Reserves.

All other unit types besides FMC dont have rulings for arriving by deepstrike, are you saying they should be immobalized? I dont think so.

Is there a rule saying if FMC is not gliding or swooping its immobalized? No its not a vehicle.

Arriving modeless is not a problem and doesnt present a single rules conundrum, I challenge you to find one.

I maintain RAW a blood tithed summoned BT does not arrive from deep strike reserves and is neither gliding nor swooping until it moves.

**Wallur**

chaosmarauder wrote:
All other unit types besides FMC dont have rulings for arriving by deepstrike, are you saying they should be immobalized? I dont think so.

No, because other units don't have different modes of movement, there is only 1 kind of movement for them.
Plus, the immobilized thing was for mentioning that if something has to be only A or B, and can't chose/state A or B... what are you asigning? C?

chaosmarauder wrote:
I maintain RAW a blood tithed summoned BT does not arrive from deep strike reserves and is neither gliding nor swooping until it moves.

Then it has to change mode from NONE to GLIDING when it moves, since it wasn't Gliding.

Tonberry7 wrote:
BT Summoned units are never in Reserve and are therefore not arriving via Deep Strike Reserve. If they were considered to be coming from Reserves the rules would state this, as in the case for Conjured units.

Conjured units (Result of Conjuring psichic power) are never in reserves either... but you treat them as if they were arriving from reserves. Also, is the conjured were a FMC it would be a FMC that enter via DS, but has never been placen on Deep Strike Reserves, since it was never placed on reserves... but it is treated as. it would enter Swooping.

Conjured units are almost the same as Summoned units, the difference is that Summoned is not a Psychic power, it doesn't happen on the psychic phase.

As I had said 2 pages ago and been repeating, these rules (Conjuring + FMC entering via DS) are the closest thing to rule this situation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dozer Blades wrote:
You are promoting HIWPI.

Until there is a FAQ or Ruling I'd go with that.
Saying it starts Gliding is HYWPI because there is no rule to support that...

**chaosmarauder**

I don't agree with you that it would assume an unwritten state of 'C: Immobalized' - there is nothing wrong, rules wise, with it being stateless until it moves.

I agree that once it does move (in the next turn) you would choose the state before it moves.

**Captyn_Bob**

chaosmarauder wrote:
I don't agree with you that it would assume an unwritten state of 'C: Immobalized' - there is nothing wrong, rules wise, with it being stateless until it moves.

I agree that once it does move (in the next turn) you would choose the state before it moves.

You have to admit, it is counter intuitive, although I can't think of a single situation where it matters.

**chaosmarauder**

Note - from a rules perspective, being stateless and being in gliding are identical - can you see any difference?

**Captyn_Bob**

Do you not mean, movement phase, rather than next turn?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaosmarauder wrote:
Note - from a rules perspective, being stateless and being in gliding are identical - can you see any difference?

An interesting question..

**Formosa**

As a deamonkin player it didn't even occur to me that you could assault after dropping the thirster, it just seems to break the ds rule as I jnderstand it and the fmc rule, it seems.gamey, so no, I won't be attempting it.

**Captyn_Bob**

noone has suggested you can assault on the same turn you deploy the bloodthirster,

(the deep strike rules explicitly prohibit this)

**Charistoph**

Dozer Blades wrote:You are promoting HIWPI.

At least he is acknowledging it. It's a refreshing change. Too many take their HIWPI and call it The Rules In Stone Tablets.

Wallur wrote:
Tonberry7 wrote:
BT Summoned units are never in Reserve and are therefore not arriving via Deep Strike Reserve. If they were considered to be coming from Reserves the rules would state this, as in the case for Conjured units.

Conjured units (Result of Conjuring psichic power) are never in reserves either... but you treat them as if they were arriving from reserves. Also, is the conjured were a FMC it would be a FMC that enter via DS, but has never been placen on Deep Strike Reserves, since it was never placed on reserves... but it is treated as. it would enter Swooping.

Conjured units are almost the same as Summoned units, the difference is that Summoned is not a Psychic power, it doesn't happen on the psychic phase.

As I had said 2 pages ago and been repeating, these rules (Conjuring + FMC entering via DS) are the closest thing to rule this situation.

Again, just because it is close, or almost the same, does not necessarily equate to being the same. Relentless and Slow and Purposeful are almost the same. Reanimation Protocols and Feel No Pain are almost the same. Yet they are not, and it is the differences which actually define them.

If a player chose to bring their Summoned FMC in and call it Gliding, I won't have a problem with it, largely because I literally have nothing to gainsay the situation. Sure there's another rule that operates on a similar basis, but that is like arguing that a Relentless model cannot fire Overwatch because neither Slow and Purposeful modles or Vehicles can.

**Dozer Blades**

It seems like the people against simply don't like it and are being a tad belligerent about it .

**chaosmarauder**

To be fair to both camps, 2 large different tournament bodies FAQed on this opposite of each other:

ATC ruled that not coming from deep strike reserves meant you can choose the flight mode.

ITC ruled simply kdk summoned flying units must arrive as swooping

You can find both tourney faqs here if you want to take a look for yourself:

(Also noteworthy they ruled opposite on if a slain char gives a bloodpoint outside of a challenge)

http://whatc.org/PDFs/2015ATCFAQPDF.pdf

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NkfW26mcJHaqDKlaZyA3PB-prM0k17-DuTifGv2mOG4/pub

**Yarium**

chaosmarauder wrote:
To be fair to both camps, 2 large different tournament bodies FAQed on this opposite of each other:

ATC ruled that not coming from deep strike reserves meant you can choose the flight mode.

ITC ruled simply kdk summoned flying units must arrive as swooping

You can find both tourney faqs here if you want to take a look for yourself:

(Also noteworthy they ruled opposite on if a slain char gives a bloodpoint outside of a challenge)

http://whatc.org/PDFs/2015ATCFAQPDF.pdf

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NkfW26mcJHaqDKlaZyA3PB-prM0k17-DuTifGv2mOG4/pub

Do note, however, that these do not make these correct as per the RAW. This is HIWPI, enforced to an entire event. Personally, I don't think they're wrong in doing so - as the fluff of what's happening (the gates to the Warp open up, and boomf, here's a daemon) makes sense that this thing can charge. It's not coming from "high up" like a Flyrant swooping in would, but could even be coming in at ground level. That said, the RAW is very clear - it's a Flying Monstrous Creature that's arriving by Deep Strike. The only reason these events are ruling the way they are is because it feels so wrong to follow those rules, that they are anticipating it being a mistake by GW, rather than them misinterpreting the rules of the game.

**chaosmarauder**

Honestly, I've been involved on all the topics of this argument - and mostly keep around to play devils advocate.

I find the camp saying they arrive by deep strike therefore from deep strike reserves = must be swooping to be a bit louder than the other side.

So mostly I argue for the other side - its very odd that the statement 'and is treated as if it arrived from deep strike reserve' is missing from the blood tithe summoning rule, but is present in the conguring rule.

And I can't wait for an FAQ on this because really truly, after reading hundreds of arguments either way, I really cannot tell which way they intended. And RAW is not 'clear' as some people think on this.

But with all that aside, my group sees it as not being OP anyway so we let the bloodthirsters arrive in gliding (its more fun like that anyway, it makes them scarier)

**Frozocrone**

I think most people wouldn't mind Bloodthirsters arriving in Gliding mode, myself included even though my interpretation of RAW is that Bloodtithe thirsters have to remain Swooping for the turn they arrive on. The people who adhere to strict RAW for their advantage, aren't the sort of people you should be playing.

Agree that an FAQ is needed though...whether they will update is another question.

**Dozer Blades**

People don't like it because it is powerful so they try to argue against it - as it has evolved it becomes more and more transparent they do not have a valid case.

**Whacked**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Charistoph wrote:

No, what it does state is that when a model is put in Reserves to be arriving by Deep Strike, you must declare it, this is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves.

I'll make another attempt to teach you grammar.

What it says:
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

The part that says "Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" means Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves.

For your interpretation to be what it means, it would have to say:
When placing the unit in Reserve(sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve), you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.

It does not. The placement of that clause is important.

The problem isn't grammar, you are taking a sentence out of context. The context of the sentence is that if you put a unit into reserve, you have to tell your opponent that they are deep striking (instead of walking on to the table edge) this is known as "Deep Strike Reserve" it is not known as "Deep Strike" Deep Striking is a special rule, Deep Strike Reserve is an alternative place to hold your models while they wait to enter play.

**Wallur**

chaosmarauder wrote:
Note - from a rules perspective, being stateless and being in gliding are identical - can you see any difference?

There is one difference... you can't charge the turn you change flying mode... so if you CHANGE from none, to gliding, you can't charge.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, So, with RAW, (no closest RAW nor RAI)

The stateless is the only one viable to RAW

You definitely can't choose flying mode, because RAW only express you can choose in only 2 situations:
-At the Start of the Movement.
-When it enters from reserves.

Since neither is the case and also no rule for making it enter play in any specific mode (Gliding or Swooping). So RAW don't stablish any flying mode.

But as Chaosmarauder said, this "stateless" would be like gliding for that turn (since the limitations from swooping won't be in effect)

**chaosmarauder**

If you run in the shooting phase of the turn it arrives, I think you could change the state from stateless to gliding since you didn't choose one in its movement phase (since it can't move in the movement phase due to deepstrike)

Note: it says at the start of its 'move' not 'movement phase' - there is a restriction that it can't change flight mode when falling back, but not when running

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until
the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot
declare a charge during the same turn.

Then it could choose gliding again on its next turn and charge.

**Wallur**

As you mention that...
So... Can the FMC Swoop in the movement phase and Run Gliding on it's shooting phase?

Starting the Run is Starting a new move...

**chaosmarauder**

Wallur wrote:
As you mention that...
So... Can the FMC Swoop in the movement phase and Run Gliding on it's shooting phase?

Starting the Run is Starting a new move...

Honestly, I'm looking....but I can't find anything to say you can't change states in the first turn coming from deep strike by running.

It says you just can't change states when falling back.

In subsequent turns, you will be choosing the state at the start of its move in the movement phase, which lasts until the next turn,...but not the first turn it comes in because deepstrike says it is not allowed to move in the movement phase.

**Charistoph**

Is Running technically "moving", though?

**chaosmarauder**

Charistoph wrote:
Is Running technically "moving", though?

Hmm, well under Run in brb it says:

Roll a D6 to determine the maximum Run distance for the entire unit. Models in
the unit may then immediately move up to that distance in inches

Pretty sure 'may then immediately move' qualifies as making a move for purposes of choose flight mode when you move.

And once again, under FMC, the only restriction on changing flight mode is you can't do it when falling back.

**Dozer Blades**

Charistoph wrote:
Is Running technically "moving", though?

I just LOLd.

**Charistoph**

Dozer Blades wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
Is Running technically "moving", though?

I just LOLd.

Not all changing of the positions of units is classed as "moving" in the BRB. And that's not even including Gate or Scouts.

**Dozer Blades**

Anyone with some knowledge of the rules should know running is considered movement with respect to the rule set.

**Yarium**

Just pointing out - while Running is moving, the rules state;

"Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight forwards if Swooping."

So, this means while it is Swooping, you can't change its flight mode with a Run. You either elect to Run while Gliding, and move D6", or you elect to Run while Swooping and move 2d6". You can't elect to Run while Swooping and roll d6", nor can you elect to Run while Gliding and roll 2d6" to start Swooping.

**Roknar**

Assuming that running is not movement as per the rules is a very valid alternative. That's what you do in the "MOVEment" phase. Anything else is moving the model physically but not in the sense of moving as per the rules.

That may not be the most common perspective but perfectly valid nonetheless. Using "run" as a keyword separately from "move".

**chaosmarauder**

Under run it says 'may immediately move' they didnt write 'place the model d6 inches from its location'

Note also to run you have to follow all the rules on the movement phase or we wouldnt know how to move the model.

**Roknar**

It's not really that different from FNP saying its not a save and then describing it as a save immediately after.

I personally don't use run in such a way though, so I'm not going to get any more into it. But weirder stuff has happened than that.