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If an FMC could change flight modes while running, it would give them the advantage of moving up to 24" and then declaring glide to move 12" and charge next turn. I don't think that's the case. If it was, people would have been doing it since 7th dropped and this entire thing wouldn't have been a point of contention.

That being said, the distinction made in the kdk codex that it arrives by deep strike and not deep strike reserves allows them to change flight modes upon arrival, or rather, choose their flight mode when summoned. The rules do not support the idea that deep strike=deepstrike reserves. Deep strike reserves is the rule that prevents them from doing anything but swooping upon arrival. Kdk removes the word "reserves" that carries the restriction.

RAW, daemonkin FMC's can choose flight modes upon being summoned. No amount of inpoliteness and aggressive speech will change the rulebooks, or anyone's mind.

Except under run it does not say 'this does not count as a move' it says 'may immediately move'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Normally a FMC couldnt change flight mode when it runs since it would have chosen it when it moved in the movement phase. But on the turn it deepstrikes it doesnt get to move since deepstrike prevents it...so if it runs that turn it can choose the mode.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Except under run it does not say 'this does not count as a move' it says 'may immediately move'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Normally a FMC couldnt change flight mode when it runs since it would have chosen it when it moved in the movement phase. But on the turn it deepstrikes it doesnt get to move since deepstrike prevents it...so if it runs that turn it can choose the mode.

I was checking the BRB and as you say, It make you choose once for that turn, so yes, running after deep strike would let you choose (but running negates you from shooting and/or charging, unless something grants it the power)

Agreed, I wouldnt do it for a shooty FMC, but a melee FMC you trade shooting to put it into gliding mode on the turn it deepstrikes sets it up so it can charge the next turn

If you look at gliding under FMC it separates move and runs

If a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves, Runs, and charges exactly like a jump monstrous creature

so running and charging are not the same as moves.

you cannot change flight modes when you run.

Negative blacktoof .

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Anyone with some knowledge of the rules should know running is considered movement with respect to the rule set.

As I said, not all changing of position is considered "moving". I couldn't remember them all and didn't feel like looking up Running at the time. In addition, using the question allows people to think about the situation and research themselves.

blaktoof wrote:
If you look at gliding under FMC it separates move and runs

If a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves, Runs, and charges exactly like a jump monstrous creature

so running and charging are not the same as moves.

you cannot change flight modes when you run.

Run is defined as a move. So, incorrect again

Also charging is considered a movement, I'm working right now, but will check the BRB later.

But again, You are able to Run after DS.
But if you have no mode yet, you can't define how would you run, so you have to choose a flying mode at that moment to know how much it can Run. This would be the first time you choose a flying mode for that turn (and change from none to Swooping or Gliding)

RUN wrote:At times, warriors may have to redeploy quickly, literally running from cover to cover or simply concentrating on movement and giving up their chance to shoot. In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing. Roll a D6 to determine the maximum Run distance for the entire unit. Models in the unit may then immediately move up to that distance in inches. They may choose not to move after the roll is made, but still count as having Run.
Running movement is not slowed by difficult terrain but models running through dangerous terrain must test as normal. Units that Run in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the following Assault phase.

And in Assault Phase there is a sub topic named: CHARGE MOVE

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If you look at gliding under FMC it separates move and runs

If a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves, Runs, and charges exactly like a jump monstrous creature

so running and charging are not the same as moves.

you cannot change flight modes when you run.

Run is defined as a move. So, incorrect again

incorrect as always you are.

When a model moves it moves.

When a model runs, it moves.

When a model charges, it moves.

When a model falls back, it moves.

When a model is tank shocked, it moves.

But all of these things are one type of move, and not the other type of move.

This is why under gliding it says "moves, runs, or charges" there is the movement phase move, then there is the distance a model moves from things that are not moving, ie run/charge. Which again, is why under "gliding" it states "moves, runs, charges" because the model moves for all of those, but only one of them is during the models move.

If you think a model can change its movement mode when it moves[movement phase] or during anytime it moves [movement phase, run, charge, fallback, etc] is two different things. Most people agree models change their movement mode during the movement phase move[the move that is listed under glide, not the run, charge for example] otherwise you could have swooping models change gliding modes during the start of assault move and assault things.

"Incorrect as always you are"?

So your contention, entirely unsupported by any rules, is that there are types of move?

Nonsense, again.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Incorrect as always you are"?

So your contention, entirely unsupported by any rules, is that there are types of move?

Nonsense, again.

so you contend anything that allows a FMC to move;

move, run, charge, fallback, etc allows you to elect to change flight modes.

Like always in every post you do not state an actual stance or any rules support for anything you say, so as always it is hard to say if you are trolling or actually stating anything when your statements consist solely of things like "run is defined as a move. so incorrect again". are you saying all things that move a model are move and you can change flight mode during any of them, or something else entirely? Do you have a rules quote? Can you clarify so I can tell if your post is an actual discussion on anything, or something to just ignore.

blaktoof wrote:

Like always in every post you do not state an actual stance or any rules support for anything you say, so as always it is hard to say if you are trolling or actually stating anything when your statements consist solely of things like "run is defined as a move. so incorrect again". are you saying all things that move a model are move and you can change flight mode during any of them, or something else entirely? Do you have a rules quote? Can you clarify so I can tell if your post is an actual discussion on anything, or something to just ignore.

He just wants to be the last person to say something, so everyone will think he's right, when in fact, people just gave up arguing with him.

Actual rules quotes were already provided in this thread disproving his position. He claims those words don't mean what they actually mean.

blaktoof wrote:
If you think a model can change its movement mode when it moves[movement phase] or during anytime it moves [movement phase, run, charge, fallback, etc] is two different things. Most people agree models change their movement mode during the movement phase move[the move that is listed under glide, not the run, charge for example] otherwise you could have swooping models change gliding modes during the start of assault move and assault things.

Actually, the rule is

Changing Flight Mode wrote:
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.

It never mentions "Movement Phase", but since movement Phase is the normal first time a model moves in it's turn, it's when it choses mode.
If it chose mode on Movement phase, can't change it willingly until the first move of it's next turn.
As swooping ALWAYS must move on the movement phase, it ALWAYS must chose on movement phase.
If it were Gliding, it can make no move on movement phase and chose to change movement if it runs (not in charge because swooping can't charge), but in my opinion this would be completelly useless since it's better move on movement phase than be limited to a dice roll movement on shooting phase.

Most people agree to change mode in movement phase, because most people move for the first time in movement phase, and if you move for the first time that turn, you must declare wich mode are you using... if you were Gliding, and move, and doesn't say anything, you chose to keep gliding. even if you run later, you already moved in a mode that turn, and that mode will last till your next turn.

Wallur wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If you think a model can change its movement mode when it moves[movement phase] or during anytime it moves [movement phase, run, charge, fallback, etc] is two different things. Most people agree models change their movement mode during the movement phase move[the move that is listed under glide, not the run, charge for example] otherwise you could have swooping models change gliding modes during the start of assault move and assault things.

Actually, the rule is

Changing Flight Mode wrote:
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.

It never mentions "Movement Phase", but since movement Phase is the normal first time a model moves in it's turn, it's when it choses mode.
If it chose mode on Movement phase, can't change it willingly until the first move of it's next turn.
As swooping ALWAYS must move on the movement phase, it ALWAYS must chose on movement phase.
If it were Gliding, it can make no move on movement phase and chose to change movement if it runs (not in charge because swooping can't charge), but in my opinion this would be completelly useless since it's better move on movement phase than be limited to a dice roll movement on shooting phase.

Most people agree to change mode in movement phase, because most people move for the first time in movement phase, and if you move for the first time that turn, you must declare wich mode are you using... if you were Gliding, and move, and doesn't say anything, you chose to keep gliding. even if you run later, you already moved in a mode that turn, and that mode will last till your next turn.

I agree it never mentions the movement phase.

under turn summary:

2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.

so there is a 'move' that is only the move you do during the movement phase.

and there are other times models move, but are not that move.

this is shown under "Gliding" for FMC.

If a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves, runs, and charges exactly as a jump monstrous creature.

The above shows moves as separate from run, and charge. Now in both run and charge a model can move, but they separated out move from those other things that allow a model to move, showing that it is the move from the movement phase. If all things=move, they could have easily just said "if a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves exactly as a jump monstrous creature" however they did not.

Looking back at "changing flight mode"- which you quoted it begs the question is "move" here the movement move, or any move. It does not say anytime the model moves, but it also does not say at the start of the movement phase. They obviously took the time to separate move from run, and charge[which both move models] this could be showing that move is different than run and charge, even though all move the model.

Looking forward under "swooping"

It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24"

This is the whole of that part of the rule.

A flying monstrous creature that elects to run can move up to 2d6" straight forwards

both things move the model, but only one is the move during movement. Ie the move listed first in gliding, and possibly the move listed under changing flight modes.

also of note this has a possible rules conflict, if move is truly generic and anytime it says move anywhere move=move then if a model must move at least 12" and it rolls less than 12 on 2d6" to run it is not following a must, it also technically has permission to run 12"-24" as that is how it must move, and we are told under run it can move 2d6". If the run move = move= any move than it must move at least 12" when it runs and can move up to 24" and also has the rule that it can move 2d6". So either there are different things that can move a model, or all things that move a model are move.

I lean to if it says move then it means the movement phase, unless it also specifies moving at some other time like charge, run, fallback.

I think that interpreting that anywhere in the brb/codexes that, unless specified, 'move' always = 'movement phase' could have wide reaching, unforseen implications.

It is much simpler I think to count run, charge as moving as well. Especially since they state in those rules to make a 'move' and do not state that they do not count as making a 'move'.

And in your swooping contradiction of 'run might have to be 12-24', the way it is written overrides the 'must move 12-24' specifically by saying if it runs then it moves 2D6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The whole point of how we got into this rabbit hole was...if a BT summoned FMC arrives NOT from deep strike reserves, then RAW it arrives stateless (neither swooping nor gliding) because there is no clause for this in FMC deployment rules.

Therefor, if it elects to Run in the shooting phase of the turn it deepstrikes, it would have to select a mode before you could actually move the model.

This would allow it to change to gliding on the turn it deepstrikes, then charge the next turn.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

Like always in every post you do not state an actual stance or any rules support for anything you say, so as always it is hard to say if you are trolling or actually stating anything when your statements consist solely of things like "run is defined as a move. so incorrect again". are you saying all things that move a model are move and you can change flight mode during any of them, or something else entirely? Do you have a rules quote? Can you clarify so I can tell if your post is an actual discussion on anything, or something to just ignore.

He just wants to be the last person to say something, so everyone will think he's right, when in fact, people just gave up arguing with him.

Actual rules quotes were already provided in this thread disproving his position. He claims those words don't mean what they actually mean.

Rule one. Seriously, is it so tricky?

Run is defined as a move. The rules quotes prove this. Maybe your stance could use some rules, or links to this mythical proof?

Or you'd given up. Hard to tell.

You couldn't have more clearly illustrated my point. Thanks.

If you started a winged daemon prince on the table during turn 1, you could declare swooping or flying then, right?

Yea. It starts as gliding but you can immediately declare it to swoop if you wanted to.

blaktoof wrote:

Spoiler:

]

Wallur wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If you think a model can change its movement mode when it moves[movement phase] or during anytime it moves [movement phase, run, charge, fallback, etc] is two different things. Most people agree models change their movement mode during the movement phase move[the move that is listed under glide, not the run, charge for example] otherwise you could have swooping models change gliding modes during the start of assault move and assault things.

Actually, the rule is

Changing Flight Mode wrote:
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn.
A Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature cannot change flight mode whilst Falling Back.

It never mentions "Movement Phase", but since movement Phase is the normal first time a model moves in it's turn, it's when it choses mode.
If it chose mode on Movement phase, can't change it willingly until the first move of it's next turn.
As swooping ALWAYS must move on the movement phase, it ALWAYS must chose on movement phase.
If it were Gliding, it can make no move on movement phase and chose to change movement if it runs (not in charge because swooping can't charge), but in my opinion this would be completelly useless since it's better move on movement phase than be limited to a dice roll movement on shooting phase.

Most people agree to change mode in movement phase, because most people move for the first time in movement phase, and if you move for the first time that turn, you must declare wich mode are you using... if you were Gliding, and move, and doesn't say anything, you chose to keep gliding. even if you run later, you already moved in a mode that turn, and that mode will last till your next turn.

I agree it never mentions the movement phase.

under turn summary:

2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.

so there is a 'move' that is only the move you do during the movement phase.

and there are other times models move, but are not that move.

this is shown under "Gliding" for FMC.

If a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves, runs, and charges exactly as a jump monstrous creature.

The above shows moves as separate from run, and charge. Now in both run and charge a model can move, but they separated out move from those other things that allow a model to move, showing that it is the move from the movement phase. If all things=move, they could have easily just said "if a flying monstrous creature is gliding, it moves exactly as a jump monstrous creature" however they did not.

Looking back at "changing flight mode"- which you quoted it begs the question is "move" here the movement move, or any move. It does not say anytime the model moves, but it also does not say at the start of the movement phase. They obviously took the time to separate move from run, and charge[which both move models] this could be showing that move is different than run and charge, even though all move the model.

Looking forward under "swooping"

It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24"

This is the whole of that part of the rule.

A flying monstrous creature that elects to run can move up to 2d6" straight forwards

both things move the model, but only one is the move during movement. Ie the move listed first in gliding, and possibly the move listed under changing flight modes.

also of note this has a possible rules conflict, if move is truly generic and anytime it says move anywhere move=move then if a model must move at least 12" and it rolls less than 12 on 2d6" to run it is not following a must, it also technically has permission to run 12"-24" as that is how it must move, and we are told under run it can move 2d6". If the run move = move= any move than it must move at least 12" when it runs and can move up to 24" and also has the rule that it can move 2d6". So either there are different things that can move a model, or all things that move a model are move.

I lean to if it says move then it means the movement phase, unless it also specifies moving at some other time like charge, run, fallback.

Then that is a contradiction inside the rules. If following that when it say "move" alone means "move during mvoement phase" then:
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can move over intervening units and Ipassable terrain exactly as a Jump Monstrous Creature. In addition, a Flying onstrous Creature that is Swooping does not take Dangerous Terrain tests.
• A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight Forwards if Swooping.

So, A FMC that is Swooping can't run over other models and/or impassable terrain? Because the rule is for when it "moves" not when it "runs" (According to your reasoning)

Anyway, the first rule of "must move" is later overriden by "If Elects to Run Can Move up to 2D6" "

But Well, going back to the original point. If the FMC DS, It can't move on the movement phase, but elects to run, wich mode will be running? Because Gliding runs 1D6 (any direction), and swooping moves 2D6" (straight Forward).
I'm asking you How would you play it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You couldn't have more clearly illustrated my point. Thanks.

Good to know who will debate honestly, and who resorts to personal attacks.

Bye.

Lets go over the facts:

1) You change flight mode before "its move" not before "it moves" as people contest. The former can only refer to a movement phase move the later to any action that involves moving.

2) All reserves arrive at the start of the turn. If you disagree with this you must clearly mark your post HYWPI as there is no RaW that states the arrival occurs at any other time.

3) Deepstrike and Deepstrike Reserve are the same thing RaW. As the rules tell you Deepstrike Reserve is another name for Deepstrike. For instance I say Codex: Space Marines is sometimes called Codex Vanilla Marines, that means whenever I say Codex Vanilla Marines I am talking about Codex Space Marines.

4) Deepstriking is movement as you are prohibited from moving further after doing it.

5) Deepstriking forces you to be in Swooping mode.

These are all facts that ate undisputable RaW. The ONLY conclusion is that no RaW anywhere supports changing flight mode the turn you are summoned by the BT. None.

 FlingitNow wrote:
2) All reserves arrive at the start of the turn. If you disagree with this you must clearly mark your post HYWPI as there is no RaW that states the arrival occurs at any other time.

Not specifically stated, yet not specifically exempted, either. Considering what else you get wrong in this post, retitle to "Here are what I view as facts on it".

 FlingitNow wrote:
3) Deepstrike and Deepstrike Reserve are the same thing RaW. As the rules tell you Deepstrike Reserve is another name for Deepstrike. For instance I say Codex: Space Marines is sometimes called Codex Vanilla Marines, that means whenever I say Codex Vanilla Marines I am talking about Codex Space Marines.

Out of Context statement is not proof. The sentence defining Deep Strike Reserves is not even constructed the same way as your example of proof.

Deep Strike Reserves is only the state of being in Reserves and declared to be Deep Striking when Arriving, read the whole sentence. It has nothing to do with the actual Arrival process.

 FlingitNow wrote:
4) Deepstriking is movement as you are prohibited from moving further after doing it.

Treated as or counts as. It is never explicitly stated as such. If it is not explicit, it is not a fact.

 FlingitNow wrote:
5) Deepstriking forces you to be in Swooping mode.

Incomplete or misquoting. Arriving from Deep Strike Reserves forces you to be in Swooping Mode. Deep Strike alone is never a condition, and while Deep Strike Reserves is part of the Deep Strike Rules, they are not equal in definition.

 FlingitNow wrote:
These are all facts that ate undisputable RaW. The ONLY conclusion is that no RaW anywhere supports changing flight mode the turn you are summoned by the BT. None.

Opinions stated with facts are not indisputable RAW.

But what if you state them over and over again? Surely it becomes RAW eventually..

2) It is specifically stated that on turn 4 reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Do you have permission to arrive at a different time on other turns? If not you can't. So yes this is an indisputable fact RaW. Please clearly mark your post HYWPI if you want to argue against this point.

3) "you must tell your opponent that is will arrive by Deepstrike (sometimes called Deepstrike Reserve)". This is saying arriving by deepstrike and arriving by deepstrike reserve are the same thing. There is no other mention of Deepstrike reserve in the entire Derp Strike section.

4) "Treated as" and "counts as" are identical to "is" from a rules perspective. Deepstriking is moving RaW.

5) Arriving via deepstrike reserve is the same as arriving via deepstrike. QED.

None of what I stated where opinions they were RaW facts. As you ate arguing against RaW for your own version of the rules you should clearly mark your post as HYWPI according to the tenets.

 FlingitNow wrote:
2) It is specifically stated that on turn 4 reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Do you have permission to arrive at a different time on other turns? If not you can't. So yes this is an indisputable fact RaW. Please clearly mark your post HYWPI if you want to argue against this point.

It isn't. Can you misquote a rule applicable to turn 4 only and apply it to every other turn? No. No you can't. This isn't how you read rules. Please mark your post as not RAW if you ware making stuff up.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
2) It is specifically stated that on turn 4 reserves arrive at the start of the turn. Do you have permission to arrive at a different time on other turns? If not you can't. So yes this is an indisputable fact RaW. Please clearly mark your post HYWPI if you want to argue against this point.

It isn't. Can you misquote a rule applicable to turn 4 only and apply it to every other turn? No. No you can't. This isn't how you read rules. Please mark your post as not RAW if you ware making stuff up.

So where is your permission to arrive at a different time on other turns? Are you claiming you arrive at a different time on every turn except 4?Are you also claiming arriving from on going reserves happens before normal reserves as that is also explicitly stated to be start of the turn?

Page 17 bro.

Where on page 17? I see nothing about reserves on that page.