Hi folks,

I am new to the gaming scene. Been painting for a while.

The weekend before last I played my first two AoS skirmishes. Both pick up games. BOTH armies were unpainted/unfinished. The second army didn't even have an undercoat - it was just grey.

Have to say as a hobbyist who has patiently spent many hours painting my O&G army to a reasonable table-top standard, being pitted against two unpainted armies just felt .... cheap and nasty.

I actually almost suggested to the second fellow I played against that rather than playing, he should pull up a seat at the painters table and get cracking. I didn't because I didn't want to seem rude.

How do you guys deal with players who want to battle with an unpainted army? Does it irritate you?

PS Enjoyed AoS as a game - although I had large blocks of goblin infantry which took quite a long time to shuffle around the board and pile in with :S

Cheers

I'm perfectly fine with it. Each person hobbies in their own way. Some people might not have time to paint, others may be bad painters and they don't want to make the attempt. The player may have only recently finished assembling the models and wanted to try them out. And yes. It would have been rude to suggest the guy spend time painting instead of playing, i know it would have irritated me.

I don't like to paint. I do like to model or convert. I get maybe one hour per week on average with access to all my hobby equipment and table. Guess how I spend my time.

I have some KoW stuff that has been spray painted, and some hero minis that I've kind of started painting, so I guess I shouldn't be allowed to play. It's not like gamer attitude wasn't already a thing, so I get it.

Best thing to do, paint your own models. The more people in a group paint the more likely those who don't like painting will suck it up and give it a shot.

While I prefer painted, I look at the effort it takes to paint my own stuff and can understand why people don't want to do it themselves. I wish 6-15mm gaming was more popular because it takes no time at all paint up armies of those.

I prefer painted armies myself and notice if models are partially or not painted. Otherwise it makes no difference to me, not my army so no legit reason to bring it up.
Each person make their army in their own way. As stated above it could be a time issue or eagerness to play. Looks like no harm done on your part so no worries.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I wish 6-15mm gaming was more popular because it takes no time at all paint up armies of those.

Have you heard of Dropzone Commander? Here's a thread for it. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/654108.page

 WarAngel wrote:
I prefer painted armies myself and notice if models are partially or not painted. Otherwise it makes no difference to me, not my army so no legit reason to bring it up.
Each person make their army in their own way. As stated above it could be a time issue or eagerness to play. Looks like no harm done on your part so no worries.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I wish 6-15mm gaming was more popular because it takes no time at all paint up armies of those.

Have you heard of Dropzone Commander? Here's a thread for it. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/654108.page

Cheers man, but I already play too many games of all sorts haha. One day maybe.

Honestly I don't even like fielding units that aren't painted. I'm in the practice of painting then assembling, which prevents me from fielding units that are unpainted. Granted, this makes building an ork army a lengthy process, but I think it's well worth it. Seeing a fully painted army in action is its own victory.

While I would prefer to play against a painted army im okay with playing against an unpainted army. To me the game looks so much cooler when both armies are fully painted. I put alot of time and effort into painting and then to usually play against people who have an unpainted army is annoying. I usually try to gently pressure my friends into painting their armies although this tends to never work. Considering painting is a massive part of the hobby I dont see how people could go so long without even painting a single guy in their army.

Me I couldn't care less. It is their army by the way, you did not spend the money on their models, they can do what they please.

Even GW has said that in official policy they don't care either, so there you have it.

I paint my models to good tabletop standard, it is therapy and it calms me down.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Seeing a fully painted army in action is its own victory.

+1

Agree 100%

I don't know for some reason I feel a little bit put out by the whole unpainted army thing - and I can't quite put my finger on why.

I just know from my own perspective that I would never contemplate fielding an unpainted model because the model is not worthy to be placed on the table.

Perhaps out of respect or courtesy...honor...or a combination thereof... I don't know it just doesn't feel right somehow... merely my own perspective on the matter.

Painting before assembly...now theres something I haven't thought of... how do you find gluing the separate components together once painted?

I very rarely, if ever get to play, so I have to field what I have available.

I've got about a half painted army at the moment.

Am I the only one who likes the look of an assembled but unpainted model?
I thinking of having one for AoS that I have just this way.

Tinwhistle wrote:
Hi folks,

I am new to the gaming scene. Been painting for a while.

The weekend before last I played my first two AoS skirmishes. Both pick up games. BOTH armies were unpainted/unfinished. The second army didn't even have an undercoat - it was just grey.

Have to say as a hobbyist who has patiently spent many hours painting my O&G army to a reasonable table-top standard, being pitted against two unpainted armies just felt .... cheap and nasty.

I actually almost suggested to the second fellow I played against that rather than playing, he should pull up a seat at the painters table and get cracking. I didn't because I didn't want to seem rude.

How do you guys deal with players who want to battle with an unpainted army? Does it irritate you?

PS Enjoyed AoS as a game - although I had large blocks of goblin infantry which took quite a long time to shuffle around the board and pile in with :S

Cheers

It is a choice. I don't paint my miniatures, because I don't have time to do that and, frankly, I hate painting - I don't have the patience, I get irritated easily. I am a decent painter, don't get me wrong, but decent is not enough for me and I don't have time to learn how to paint well enough to be okay with every miniature I put out on the table. And I can't afford paying someone to paint all my armies just so someone won't whine that he's playing against unpainted models.

Not to mention that I personally enjoy the look of unpainted GW plastic, those miniatures look - in my opinion - good on my shelves and I wouldn't take it kindly if someone suggested that I stopped playing and went to paint my miniatures. I'd label him as a douche even if I understand why some people might be unhappy about playing against unpainted miniatures because they invested time into perfecting their own, but I, to be honest, would rather play against unpainted army, than against what a lot of people field with only basic colours slapped indiscriminately all over the models, resulting in what looks like 5 year old's painting just to meet tournament standards and not bother any further. If he's okay with such terribly painted army (I would never say it in his face, though - my manners are better than that and I understand that it's still his effort and work put in there, so I'm not to diss it), I can be okay with unpainted miniatures that look clean, tidy and have visible details.

Either properly plainted or no paint at all. If I can't find time to paint it well enough for me to be proud of myself, I won't paint it at all. I don't want to ruin my miniatures just for someone else to not get his knickers in a twist. And I sincerely believe that undercoated armies look 100 times worse, than clean plastic ones.

If someone is half-way through painting their army I don't mind playing.

In general, though, the reason I play tabletop games is to enjoy the spectacle of the armies and terrain, otherwise I would just play computer games or board games, so I would not play against a completely unpainted army if it was at all avoidable.

I disagree with the idea that "it's their army so they can do what they want" on two grounds:

1. Wargaming is a social pursuit that people do together. In this respect, their army is not their army for the duration of the game, it is our army to enjoy together.
2. If we are going to take the My Army view, my army is my army and I can do what I want, which is to not play an unpleasant looking game.

Realistically I appreciate that people don't have infinite time for painting. I don't either. There are various ways around this:

Techniques like spray painting, shades, and shield and flag transfers, to get figures up to decent tabletop standard quickly and easily. They won't win a Golde Demon but they will look great en masse on the table.

Alternatively, buy painted armies. I have several. I'm prouder of the armies I have made myself, but I don't have the time or the eyesight to paint everything I want to play.

It's interesting that people are already starting to have the unpainted army complaint about AoS, which has the advantage that the core set is very small and can easily be painted mainly with spray paints. The Sigmarines only have about 20 figures and are all gold with colour accents. The bloke on a Griffin wants a bit more time spent on him, but he is your centrepiece model.

Other than mimicking Kilkrazy's opinion I have to add that last time I was in a GW store, interested in AoS, they'd set up the starter models with just gold and red undercoats and it just looked sad.

You know, some people get into the hobby the wrong way. If he happens to bring up the whole lack of painting thing, then I would point him to ebay. There are some armies fully painted on there sometimes at retail cost or less - already painted. If he's patient enough, he can snag a deal and then sell his current stuff. This is a win/win for a gamer like him.

ChazLikesCake wrote:
Other than mimicking Kilkrazy's opinion I have to add that last time I was in a GW store, interested in AoS, they'd set up the starter models with just gold and red undercoats and it just looked sad.

To be fair to them, I was in the local GW on pre-order day for AoS. They'd only received the shop copy the day before, and they had been up until 3am assembling and spraying everything.

Painted vs unpainted armies - I don't field unpainted models, but you can do as you like. I travel a lot with work, and I appreciate that not everyone has the time to paint.

Some shops are better than others. I have been into three GWs recently, looking at the AoS setups. In none of them had done more than spray the Sigmarines gold and the Khornies red, but in some of the shops they had fantastic looking models and conversions in the display cases.

I know nearly all the shops are one man nowadays, but I am a bit surprised that it's taking more people than a month from release to paint the AoS starter models. It's not a good advertisement for the game or for wargaming in general. GW themselves sell the sprays, shades, washes and normal paints; everything you need to do up a model, including a painting handbook!

Are any of those stores here in the South West perchance? I'm so far removed from the wargame community that if I find anyone on here remotely from the area I'm in that I'm going to latch on to them like a limpet.

Personally I prefer a single base coat, I think it does a great job, was for anyone and looks great on table but I do not care, you do what you want to do its yours toys

ChazLikesCake wrote:
Are any of those stores here in the South West perchance?

South West of where?

You can either suck it up and play them, or just choose not to play them. That's how you deal with it. It's their hobby as much as yours, if they'd rather play than paint that's their prerogative. You don't have to play them but you can't make them paint so either play anyway or don't.

MongooseMatt wrote:

ChazLikesCake wrote:
Are any of those stores here in the South West perchance?

South West of where?

England. Cider country.

Kilkrazy and Kveldulf, you seem to overlook one detail - not everyone wants to have half-assed paintjob on their models. EBay armies either cost a terrible lot if they're painted well or are painted so horribly that I would rather kill myself than play with one.

Some people just want to either keep it clean and neat without paint or have their minis painted at least "well". Or even painted in a colour scheme that they personally want.

For example: a person wants to have an army of Empire for Warhammer painted in Averland's colours. Find me a decently painted black and yellow Empire army on eBay. And then what if he wants to expand? He won't find more Empire painted in that same scheme by the same guy and, as we know, everyone's painting skills are different, so even if he finds more Averland-themed Empire miniatures they're going to look totally different (maybe even different shades or detail colours) than what he already has, making for a terrible, abominable patchwork. And if there aren't any Averland armies should he settle down for something he doesn't want just so someone's tingle for painted opposing army gets satisfied? Or wait maybe for years for someone to finally decide to sell it? I know where you were heading, but it's a terrible solution if you have any personal preferences.

Unpainted is always better, than mehly done so for me. If I can't be sure that I will be satisfied with how I can paint my toy soldiers, I won't paint them. And definetely I won't paint my miniatures for someone else just because the twist of his knickers makes his eyes pop as he sees grey plastic. If he doesn't want to play me because of that then that's even better reason for me to not play with him either - he's not the type of person I would like to spend my limited free time or be friends with.

Now I'm not saying that I'm going to play with unpainted minis forever - I hope to save up enough money to pay a nice studio to paint my armies for me at a level I will be happy with if I won't have the time to paint them myself, but if someone goes as far as expecting me to have it painted just because he likes it that way, then I will just tell him to go have an intercourse with himself.

I didn't actually realise there are people who prefer to play with unpainted figures, but if that is what you like, fair enough.

However I prefer to play with painted figures.

Never played with unpainted figures, never will. It offends my sensibilities.

Thankfully all my club are the same and no-one would even consider it an option.

The problem with your stance, Kleych - painted 'decently' or not at all - is that new painters have to start somewhere, and it's a little disingenuous to expect new hobbyists to paint up to your standards from the start, and then insist they shouldn't paint at all if they can't. My first marines weren't great, but after some seven years in the hobby, I've improved.

(This is, of course, completely excluding those who are physically unable to paint miniatures, whether it be from injuries or other issues).

I also think that personal standards might be set too high for people who haven't painted all that much. Not every model needs to look like a Golden Demon winner, but new painters try this and then get discouraged when a single tactical marine takes them three hours to paint.

I get comments on how good my miniatures look because I use techniques to paint them to my "tabletop" standard, which uses the meter rule - make it look good at a meter's distance, because that's the average viewing distance for gameplay. Washes and some basic highlighting make my minis look just as good from a meter away as somebody who spent much more time and effort for a result that only looks really good when you look at them from inches away. Not that they shouldn't do it - the minis still look great.

And, of course, I'll always dispute the "my hobby" statements - people who don't have painted miniatures aren't fully participating in the hobby, not "doing it their way." Which doesn't mean they can't use unpainted miniatures to play, of course - we all want to get games in, at the end of the day.

And congrats, AoS! You've had your first "unpainted vs painted" thread on Dakka. Here's to plenty more of those.

Addition: Just thought of this - Doesn't this play well into GW's vision of the HHHobby - buying their miniatures? We know that doing things like assembling, painting, and playing with GW's models are all secondary considerations.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I didn't actually realise there are people who prefer to play with unpainted figures, but if that is what you like, fair enough.

However I prefer to play with painted figures.

I think the core thing with me is that this hobby is (for me that is) 70-90% painting, modelling, converting... to actually ignore a simple paint job (and as you said, not really that hard) is really sad, a primer and a base paint do WONDERS.

I am not a big sigmarine fan but love the models (still have no built mine) but will give them a primer coat and a simple gold base and add details to only the weapons or "key" features (like wings for the angel guys) to distinguish them from the army, and that will be it.. I think it would great and at least allows me to SLOWLY learn to paint with them... (maybe give them individual shades as well) and these things are so easy to do ANYONE can do them.. and lets be honest, if you spent 30 hours building your army, whats another 2 hours giving them a paint job (a simple paint job is REALLY quick and easy to do)

OP if it effects your enjoyment of the game that much feel free to only play against other painted armies, you may find yourself with less games but if thats a fair trade of for you play how you want with who you want. Some people love to play but hate painting or see it as a chore though while you do not have to play against these people you probably shouldn't try to dictate to them how they use their models or play the game. Telling them they should go paint their models when they offer you a game is rude, saying sorry but I prefer to play against painted models as the aesthetic is a huge part of the enjoyment for me is not.

To sum up they don't have to paint their army to play, but you don't have to play against an unpainted army if you don't wish to.

Consider arranging some kind of journeymen tournament/campaign with other people in the store where you start off with a small group of painted models at a small points or models value and every 2 weeks or so add in x number painted models. No one will be forced to take part in it but its a great way to insentivise the people involved to paint their models as painting becomes an active part of taking part. People who don't paint their stuff can still take part but will be limited to only their painted models. As long as you make this clear from the very start then people won't feel its unfair as its what they have signed up for.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Best thing to do, paint your own models. The more people in a group paint the more likely those who don't like painting will suck it up and give it a shot.

While I prefer painted, I look at the effort it takes to paint my own stuff and can understand why people don't want to do it themselves. I wish 6-15mm gaming was more popular because it takes no time at all paint up armies of those.

You say that but while it is certainly much quicker there are often more models to paint at that scale. Im painting 30 something guys at a time for flames of war.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
1. Wargaming is a social pursuit that people do together. In this respect, their army is not their army for the duration of the game, it is our army to enjoy together.

Disagree with this on the basis that it is categorically false. Their army is their army until the day they decide to sell, donate or dispose of it. They have absolutely every right to field it as they want and no one else has the right to impose their own standards upon them or claim ownership of their property.

2. If we are going to take the My Army view, my army is my army and I can do what I want, which is to not play an unpleasant looking game.

This however, I totally agree with. You are well within your right to choose to not play someone for whatever reason.

Personally, I get to actually play Fantasy maybe once or twice a month, so I'm not going to be picky. Although I totally agree with Vitali. Two fully painted armies lined up against each other is an amazing feeling and are always memorable games, so much so that the result of the game can be considered secondary to the actual enjoyment of just playing.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I didn't actually realise there are people who prefer to play with unpainted figures, but if that is what you like, fair enough.

However I prefer to play with painted figures.

I have heard of many not caring but never actively preferring it before now. With most people though I think its less they prefer to play with unpainted figures than they don't like to paint and would rather play than paint. I know plenty of people into wargaming who hate painting so often pay others to do it for them and would happily buy prepaints if available. I don't count myself among them but I can understand where they are coming from and would hate to have them excluded from the hobby because of their lack of enjoyment of painting.

I don't use unpainted models. This may mean that I sometimes can't field a model or unit I want to use, but so be it. I don't do competitive army list creation, so that's not really a concern anyway.

I also don't use unpainted scenery, and I try to make the board look like a place, not just a game board*.

That leaves my opponent. I don't often play against strangers, so I know my friends are also trying to get their armies painted. Their standards are laxer than mine, which is a little disappointing, but we must all make sacrifices.

*Warmachine seems to be the worst offender for that, locally; two 6" diameter forest templates on an otherwise bare green table does not, IMO, make a game board. Especially not when you have all the fantastic imagery of the game world as inspiration. :(

Games Workshop used to preach to its employees to be aware of the "4 Pillars of the Hobby". The idea was that this hobby is broken down into Collecting, Assembling, Painting and Playing. Different people prioritize different things and not everyone likes all 4 pillars.

While I enjoy painting my armies and would prefer to play against painted armies, I do recognize that not everyone enjoys that element of the hobby as much as I do. If I had to rate myself on a scale of 1 to 10, it would look like this...

Collecting 7/10
Assembling 6/10
Painting 10/10
Playing 2/10

My friend who loves tournaments, gets other people to assemble his models and plays exclusively with unpainted models probably looks more like this...

Collecting 1/10
Assembling 1/10
Painting 1/10
Playing 10/10

It's just different priorities. You need to realize that your hobby isn't the same as my hobby and that there is no correct way to participate.

 bitethythumb wrote:

I think the core thing with me is that this hobby is (for me that is) 70-90% painting, modelling, converting... to actually ignore a simple paint job (and as you said, not really that hard) is really sad, a primer and a base paint do WONDERS.

I am not a big sigmarine fan but love the models (still have no built mine) but will give them a primer coat and a simple gold base and add details to only the weapons or "key" features (like wings for the angel guys) to distinguish them from the army, and that will be it.. I think it would great and at least allows me to SLOWLY learn to paint with them... (maybe give them individual shades as well) and these things are so easy to do ANYONE can do them.. and lets be honest, if you spent 30 hours building your army, whats another 2 hours giving them a paint job (a simple paint job is REALLY quick and easy to do)

I'm pretty new to this but have painted enough in the past to know how, so here's my super lazy attempt at the Retributors:


Not as good as most guys here could do but I guarantee you they look miles better than any unpainted army. Finished them in a single evening when I wasn't even focusing. Here's how:

Start an assembly line, maximum of 5 guys for sanity's sake. Paint them all one colour, move on to the next, ect.

1. Primer. Spray this to save time.
2. Really sloppy base colour. Go nuts as you'll paint over the terribleness later. (I went for brown then gold because in my limited experience, just gold looks pretty bad.)
3. WASH! This is the ultimate cheat. Get a wash colour or water down a paint to be so thin it barely adheres (for gold use red/brown) and wash the entire armour with a large brush. Takes about a minute per model and it'll dry in the recesses giving your guys a shade.
4. Base paint the details from biggest to smallest. Sigmarines have very few.
5. Wash the details with appropriate colours.

You're done. Maybe use GW's Astrogranite and a texture brush for the base as based models look a million times better, but other than that you can just highlight things once you're feeling more confident.

 WarAngel wrote:
Am I the only one who likes the look of an assembled but unpainted model?
I thinking of having one for AoS that I have just this way.

No, I like bare plastic, too. I grew up with plastic Star Wars models and pewter dragons, so the whole idea of painting minis is still new and strange to me. Plus I don't like to paint and am not good at it...

I'm not saying it isn't easy to get acceptable table standard results if you know what you're doing.

I'm saying that some people just don't care.

I enjoy the painting, so spending 40 hours over a couple of weeks working on 5 models is a good use of my free time.

I have friends who would think of 2 hours painting as 2 hours of their life they'll never get back.

Different strokes for different folks. If you require all your opponents to have fully painted armies, then your potential opponent pool shrinks dramatically.

 kveldulf wrote:
You know, some people get into the hobby the wrong way. If he happens to bring up the whole lack of painting thing, then I would point him to ebay. There are some armies fully painted on there sometimes at retail cost or less - already painted. If he's patient enough, he can snag a deal and then sell his current stuff. This is a win/win for a gamer like him.

For a gamer like who? As someone who enjoys assembling the minis most and playing far, far less, your proposal sounds like a lose-lose to me.

 Kriswall wrote:

Different strokes for different folks. If you require all your opponents to have fully painted armies, then your potential opponent pool shrinks dramatically.

I think it depends on what games you're playing as well. If you're playing GW games - with their "buy more and more and more" mentality - then it's going to take forever to get everything painted.

Play a skirmish game like Empire of the Dead or Frostgrave (or Necromunda, Mordheim, or the various Kill Team mods that offer a better game than what GW threw out there), and suddenly a "fully painted army" is 8-15 models.

We get guys posting on Dakka from the Chicago Skirmish Wargames club, which have a mandatory painting requirement. Which may seem exclusionary, until you realize they play a lot of games with small model counts (it's in the name of the club, after all) and they're happy to loan models out to new hobbyists. And their batreps/AARs look a lot better than the fields of grey and black we see from other posters.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 WarAngel wrote:
Am I the only one who likes the look of an assembled but unpainted model?
I thinking of having one for AoS that I have just this way.

No, I like bare plastic, too. I grew up with plastic Star Wars models and pewter dragons, so the whole idea of painting minis is still new and strange to me. Plus I don't like to paint and am not good at it...

Many years ago I was playing 40k with my Khorne daemons (this was before Codex: Daemons was a thing ), entirely unpainted and in the shiny metal + sandy bases. Opponent's mom came in to the store to check out what sonny was up to, and praised my army for its shininess. I mumbled something about not painting them yet but she was all "Why would you want to cover up all that lovely metal?"

In retrospect, she may have been a War Mom

Kriswall wrote:My friend who loves tournaments ...

Funnily enough in the WHFB scene, tournament players are most often the ones with painted armies, because our events require painted armies, reward painted armies, and provide hard deadlines to get armies painted by. All of these are great drivers to getting your dudes painted - even the 'legions' required by 8E

On the topic at hand, I spent many years in the hobby (almost 15!) not painting more than a couple of handfuls of models across all those different armies. And then I decided I was done with unpainted, and painted a CSM army. And then a Skaven army. And then Ogres. And most recently Tzeentch Daemons. Also a Mordheim band. Plus a whole lot of Skorne (speedpainted in a weird mono-red scheme, but still painted).

I'm not a fast painter, but the impetus to play with only painted dudes is a strong one. All of these games are at their best with two painted armies and decent terrain, and that composite experience is far better than any of the rules themselves, at least for me. Once I experienced that with my CSM I understood what I had been missing.

That said, there are downsides of playing with only painted models. For one, I find I now play less - a lot less actually, as I have very little hobby time. Can't get stuff painted? Means I don't play either. And if I don't play, where's the drive to paint? It's a vicious cycle I'm struggling to escape at the moment. Basically the prime reason I no longer play Infinity, despite a thriving local community. Because I can't be fakked to paint ~10 little alien lads.

The other downside is the one the OP laments: you can't paint the other person's minis, or can't make them do it anyway. Playing in a gaming club this is less of an issue, with events driving us all to paint. However general play isn't the same. There are two reasons I stopped playing WM/H: 1) I only played Khador or Menoth over and over; 2) nobody felt particularly compelled to paint their minis. Looking around, there's a lot more variety now at the store, both armies and players ... however there isn't much more painted

- Salvage

My club charges a fine for unpainted minis and no-one wants to pay that so we have no unpainted minis here.

How do you guys deal with players who want to battle with an unpainted army? Does it irritate you?

If it comes to playing against unpainted or no game - slap those suckers down and LET'S ROLL!

It doesn't irritate me, especially if the person is working on them at their own pace.

Not everyone has the patience or skill to paint/learn, and that's ok. Their dollars support our hobby, too. I'd much rather have more potential opponents than play painted only.

And when you do get that painted battle on a painted board. Woo. Making me bothered just thinking about it. hahaha so good.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with belonging to a community that requires painted armies and charges fees for unpainted armies... but it IS exclusionary. It prioritizes (perceived) quality over quantity. You'll have fewer players, but they'll be "better" players. If you're ok with turning people away and being exclusionary... awesome! I don't want to belong to your club anyways!

In many walks of life, I prioritize quality over quantity. I do not do so in my hobby community. I would prefer that EVERYONE be included and allowed to participate, without penalty, regardless of how willing they are to paint their toys.

I'm not willing to tell people that since they don't play with their toys the way I play with my toys that they have to stay home and can't come to the party. Had I done so when I was 5 years old, my dad would have spoken to me sternly about how to play nice with others. Nothing has really changed in that regard.

TLDR - It's not wrong to have high personal standards and expectations... you just limit your potential circle of friends when you force those standards and expectations on others.

ChazLikesCake wrote:
Other than mimicking Kilkrazy's opinion I have to add that last time I was in a GW store, interested in AoS, they'd set up the starter models with just gold and red undercoats and it just looked sad.

GW Bristol? Hah :p

In AoS I have 90% of my army painted.

I don't mind playing grey armies, but I prefer painted.

Worse is when the models aren't even fully assembled and you are playing an army of legs on bases...

Some elitism in this here thread.

I like playing with painted models but not only do I paint slow, I also have better things to be doing and don't always have time to paint. If I was playing someone and their army was bare plastic or just undercoated I couldn't care less. Painted models don't make the game, players do

 Bottle wrote:

GW Bristol? Hah :p

In AoS I have 90% of my army painted.

I don't mind playing grey armies, but I prefer painted.

Worse is when the models aren't even fully assembled and you are playing an army of legs on bases...

Bristol? I wish. Try heading further away from civilisation. Southwards.

 Motograter wrote:
Some elitism in this here thread.

I was wondering how long it would take before this got trotted out.

Elitism? No. I don't think anyone has said that people with unpainted armies are _better_.

I don't play against children, people who play Magic or Warmachine or people who don't speak English either, because I don't enjoy doing so. I don't claim to be _better_ than them, though.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Elitism? No. I don't think anyone has said that people with unpainted armies are _better_.

I don't play against children, people who play Magic or Warmachine or people who don't speak English either, because I don't enjoy doing so. I don't claim to be _better_ than them, though.

Nobody has explicitly said that people with painted armies are better. HOWEVER...

When someone says (paraphrased from comments in this thread) "We don't allow anyone with an unpainted army to play at our table", it is generally heard by people with unpainted armies as "If your army isn't painted, you aren't good enough to play with us". The attitude comes off as very elitist even if it's not intended to be. Remember, perception is reality. Your intentions makes almost no difference if your audience is getting the wrong message. You might need to modify the way it's being delivered.

Compare...

1. "We require fully painted armies. If you don't paint your models, you can't play here. Besides, it's not rocket science. Try harder. Go watch a Youtube video or something."

2. "We embrace every aspect of this hobby and love seeing fully painted models fighting epic battles. To whit, we do require that if you want to use our tables that you bring a fully painted army. If you're not interested in painting or find it too challenging, let us know! There are plenty of simple techniques we can share or even contract painters we can point you towards. We're looking forward to seeing you join us on the battlefield."

Same message, two deliveries. One comes off as elitist, the other comes off as simply having high standards and being excited.

 carlos13th wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Best thing to do, paint your own models. The more people in a group paint the more likely those who don't like painting will suck it up and give it a shot.

While I prefer painted, I look at the effort it takes to paint my own stuff and can understand why people don't want to do it themselves. I wish 6-15mm gaming was more popular because it takes no time at all paint up armies of those.

You say that but while it is certainly much quicker there are often more models to paint at that scale. Im painting 30 something guys at a time for flames of war.

Well what is the difference between painting 30+ guys for 28mm? The 28mm takes a long time. I paint my 6mm in batches of 60 men at a time and it gets done faster than painting q 28mm guy to a decent standard. If I count the models in my guard army I am painting around 60 models for a small game. That takes a month at least. I have painted about 120 men, 16 large men, lots of monsters and so in only 2 days.

While yes you paint more, it is also a lot faster and takes up less time.

I like being elitist... keeps the riff raff out.


Now where is Jeeves with my cocoa...

Most my friends have lives so they cant paint I have no issue with it because I play orks and believe me painting 140 boys will drive you fething crazy...

If you don't want to play because your opponents army isn't painted Then make room ill play them...

I always try to paint stuff before playing but I can appreciate that it's not always that easy. I don't mind playing against unpainted armies but there are limits. I once played a game where the guy put an unopened rhino on the table!! unopened box still with cellophane on!!! That game didn't continue lol.

Some people have army alt- it is. They resell better on rby naked than with a mediocre paint job. And I wouldn't drive off potential players by sticking a snooty nose up at the unpainted model peasants. Beggars can't be choosers and you will be lucky to find anyone willing to play this train wreck in a year as is.

Big P wrote:
I like being elitist... keeps the riff raff out.


Now where is Jeeves with my cocoa...

I hardly think that Jeeves would approve of your choice of drink. What kind of gentleman are you?

For myself, I don't think that I ever have played against a fully painted army. They're nice to see, though.

As long as they are at least assembled, I don't mind about unpainted or just primed models. I have a busy life, including a time schedule with which I could bore you by elaborating how much I sleep, bathe, work, spend time online with World of Warcraft or Star Wars; The Old Republic. There is also a missus Lord Xcapobl who wants some attention every now and then. As such I, too, have a lot of unpainted models.

Good to see so many comments and varied opinions on this subject.

After reading everyones comments I believe I still sit in the paint your damned army!!!!! camp but is still great to hear other peoples varied and equally valid viewpoints.

It certainly wasn't my intention to come across as an elitist jerk who is exclusive to those who haven't painted their models. As a new gamer I assumed it was general convention to buy models, assemble models, paint models and finally battle with models as a reward for the work put into painting an army to the best of your ability.... I was genuinely surprised that someone would front up with unpainted models wanting to play.

My apologies for not painting my army.. I suppose I should just not work/go to school full time and spend my time painting my 15k tau, 4k daemons, 2k eldar, 1.5k imp knights. I can put a box together in an hour I can paint a single model in two. Which do you think I'm going to have more of? When I can only play one to two days out of a month and latley I haven't even gotten to do that. I enjoy the strategy of the game the time it takes to build a strong list with almost no points left to spare. That requires play testing and sorry I dont proxy so yes I'm going to buy a box slap them together and try them out, many of these units get shelved never used again unless I get some crazy new strategy. Honestly be glad you are not playing all my painted models they are tried and true which im afraid would be bad luck for you. I try not to steam roll as its no fun for anyone so yes you will be playing 40 unpainted gun drones or 18 partially painted stealth suits. At least all 100 of my fire warriors are painted..

TheBoy wrote:
My apologies for not painting my army.. I suppose I should just not work/go to school full time and spend my time painting my 15k tau, 4k daemons, 2k eldar, 1.5k imp knights. I can put a box together in an hour I can paint a single model in two. Which do you think I'm going to have more of? When I can only play one to two days out of a month and latley I haven't even gotten to do that. I enjoy the strategy of the game the time it takes to build a strong list with almost no points left to spare. That requires play testing and sorry I dont proxy so yes I'm going to buy a box slap them together and try them out, many of these units get shelved never used again unless I get some crazy new strategy. Honestly be glad you are not playing all my painted models they are tried and true which im afraid would be bad luck for you. I try not to steam roll as its no fun for anyone so yes you will be playing 40 unpainted gun drones or 18 partially painted stealth suits. At least all 100 of my fire warriors are painted..

I get it if you dont like painting models, but at the end of the day, unless you have parkinsons or other debilitating issues then your only REAL excuse is that you would rather do something else.

No need for the sob story man, just say it.

"I don't want to paint all my models, I would rather assemble and convert instead."

It doesn't bother me, although I like painted models. Just excuses are tiring to hear when they aren't legitimate.

I am the newest to my gaming group by at least seven years... If they didn't let me play with partly painted models whilst I was catching up, I'd never get to play anything for the next year whilst I had to do nothing but paint to reach the amounts of figures they regularly field.

In my eyes an army that's clearly being continually worked on is acceptable.

Painting requirements are for chumps. I refuse to play against any army that isn't full on custom converted. An important part of the hobby is also modeling, you know. Every unit must have at least one proper conversion in it and any "character" must be unique AND named, although I will tolerate kit bashes if I NEED to get a game in and no proper hobbyist is around.

5 page minimum army background and notable conflicts as well! Costumes and monologues are for weird LARPers, I want printed handouts! Forge the narrative for heaven's sake! If I wanted to play a straight up dice rolling game I'd be playing DnD!

kungfujew wrote:
Painting requirements are for chumps. I refuse to play against any army that isn't full on custom converted. An important part of the hobby is also modeling, you know. Every unit must have at least one proper conversion in it and any "character" must be unique AND named, although I will tolerate kit bashes if I NEED to get a game in and no proper hobbyist is around.

5 page minimum army background and notable conflicts as well! Costumes and monologues are for weird LARPers, I want printed handouts! Forge the narrative for heaven's sake! If I wanted to play a straight up dice rolling game I'd be playing DnD!

Your argument is crappy because someone who thinks modeling is important is likely to think assembling the models is enough to satisfy anyone who values modeling. Just like anyone who values painting does not need you to paint beyond what is a reasonable standard.

Or you missed the point completely.

kungfujew wrote:
Or you missed the point completely.

Explain the point?

I am likely being munted.

kungfujew wrote:
Painting requirements are for chumps. I refuse to play against any army that isn't full on custom converted. An important part of the hobby is also modeling, you know. Every unit must have at least one proper conversion in it and any "character" must be unique AND named, although I will tolerate kit bashes if I NEED to get a game in and no proper hobbyist is around.

5 page minimum army background and notable conflicts as well! Costumes and monologues are for weird LARPers, I want printed handouts! Forge the narrative for heaven's sake! If I wanted to play a straight up dice rolling game I'd be playing DnD!

Or alternatively... just pick up a brush, collect together a few paints....and start painting. You may surprise yourself. I did.

Also, I think a HUGE part of the. Hobby is trash talking. But real trash talking, not gloating or being mean or pissing and moaning (or praising) dice. Catch phrases and quotes.

The best part of this hobby is that there's so much to this hobby.

Oh, I only play with painted models. I've been playing since second edition, started painting in 5th and started really heavily converting in 7th. But I would never, ever turn down a game.

ChazLikesCake wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

GW Bristol? Hah :p

In AoS I have 90% of my army painted.

I don't mind playing grey armies, but I prefer painted.

Worse is when the models aren't even fully assembled and you are playing an army of legs on bases...

Bristol? I wish. Try heading further away from civilisation. Southwards.

I guessed Bristol because that's my regular and they also have the models displayed in just red and gold sprayer undercoats.

One more guess... Taunton?

 Swastakowey wrote:

kungfujew wrote:
Or you missed the point completely.

Explain the point?

I am likely being munted.

My point was that you could take any single aspect of this glorious hobby and elevate it above all others. Painting is the most common, but you could do it with moddeling or even PLAYING. To be serious for a moment instead of taking the arguement to it's absurd conclution, I beleive that the most important part of this hobby is the social interaction. I love it when people come over and look at my conversions and ask about them or comment about them. I love even more to be able to do that. I love talking about painting techniques which people who are clearly better painters than me and I love giving tips on how I was able to get my model to look a particular way to people who are worse painters. But what I love most of all is playing the game. Interacting with the guy across the table. Enjoying being out with "the guys" even if "the guys" are girls. This is, to me, first and formost and social hobby. That guy with the grey legion might be the most entertaining person you'll ever meet. If you want to skip that game, go right ahead. Your loss.

kungfujew wrote:
Also, I think a HUGE part of the. Hobby is trash talking. But real trash talking, not gloating or being mean or pissing and moaning (or praising) dice. Catch phrases and quotes.

The best part of this hobby is that there's so much to this hobby.

Oh, I only play with painted models. I've been playing since second edition, started painting in 5th and started really heavily converting in 7th. But I would never, ever turn down a game.

In the spirit of trash talking and being a bit silly about the whole subject.... (and please don't take this post seriously folks )

Sooo..... when I call out the chump fielding the "sea of grey" army and point out that he is a disgrace to his hobby associates and the Gods of Tabletop Gaming are crying rivers of tears all because he is too spineless, lazy and quite frankly pathetic to PAINT HIS FRICKING ARMY...he will jovially shrug it off, thank me for my enlightening comments and offer to buy me a beer for my troubles...

A hypothetical in response to the "they are my toys and I shall do with them what I will" crew...not a perfect analogy but I'll give it a good crack...

I have another hobby...it is playing rugby...although unfortunately I hate going for a weekly 2km jog because...well...I don't have the time and I just don't like running all that much when I am not playing the game itself....actually I hate training full stop...id rather just play. And you know what...its MY body so I can do what I like. Screw my team mates, I don't care if they are put out because I don't like running, training and practicing...furthermore I hate washing my kit...so I don't - I just let it sit in my kit bag all week stinking and smelling for next week...its my kit after all and I can do with it what I like. And well as for the opposition...if they don't like it they can lump it. I don't care if they are dry reaching at the stench of my unwashed kit because I am too shortsighted and selfish to the right thing by everyone and wash it. Oh yeah I also can't be bothered tackling or defending at all.. I am purely an offensive player who will only receive the ball and try to score every time even if the try is not on. If an opposition player runs past me...guess what.... tough luck...guess its try time for him. What...you are a little irritated by my actions fellow team mate? Screw you elitist pig, I don't like to tackle as I am sensitive and bruise easily. And guess what else - if my coach or anyone else tries to tell me that I need to buck up as my conduct is letting my team AND the broader rugby community down - I'll just scoff and call him an insensitive elitist.

Needless to say I didn't last long playing the game of Rugby.

Warhammer pillars - Collecting, Assembling, Painting, Playing. (Someone correct me if I am wrong here)

Rugby pillars - Training, Attacking, Defending, Sportsmanship (including making sure your kit is washed)

In my experience games are not generally about ME but rather US. And to me there is a basic level of conduct and expectation placed on participants to contribute to the game equally and in the right spirit. In my view fielding an un painted army seems disrespectful to a person who has worked hard to assemble and paint their models.

Perhaps if both armies are unpainted....nah UNACCEPTABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guys this was only intended to be a joke post so please don't get your knickers in a knot.

ChazLikesCake wrote:

MongooseMatt wrote:

ChazLikesCake wrote:
Are any of those stores here in the South West perchance?

South West of where?

England. Cider country.

Wurr be too?
Is Barf swesty 'nuff?

 Orock wrote:
Some people have army alt- it is. They resell better on rby naked than with a mediocre paint job. And I wouldn't drive off potential players by sticking a snooty nose up at the unpainted model peasants. Beggars can't be choosers and you will be lucky to find anyone willing to play this train wreck in a year as is.

while I agree with your point, way to finish it off with the oh-so typical GW hate-on at the end.

to the OP: this line of thought is a really dick way to think. My army is barley painted because I have 2 jobs, college, family, and other things to do. While I am trying to paint, If I went to a store, and was told "I won't play you, your army isn't painted enough" I would probably cuss the guy out, and not play him when I did finish painting my army.

Tinwhistle wrote:

kungfujew wrote:
Also, I think a HUGE part of the. Hobby is trash talking. But real trash talking, not gloating or being mean or pissing and moaning (or praising) dice. Catch phrases and quotes.

The best part of this hobby is that there's so much to this hobby.

Oh, I only play with painted models. I've been playing since second edition, started painting in 5th and started really heavily converting in 7th. But I would never, ever turn down a game.

In the spirit of trash talking and being a bit silly about the whole subject.... (and please don't take this post seriously folks )

Sooo..... when I call out the chump fielding the "sea of grey" army and point out that he is a disgrace to his hobby associates and the Gods of Tabletop Gaming are crying rivers of tears all because he is too spineless, lazy and quite frankly pathetic to PAINT HIS FRICKING ARMY...he will jovially shrug it off, thank me for my enlightening comments and offer to buy me a beer for my troubles...

A hypothetical in response to the "they are my toys and I shall do with them what I will" crew...not a perfect analogy but I'll give it a good crack...

I have another hobby...it is playing rugby...although unfortunately I hate going for a weekly 2km jog because...well...I don't have the time and I just don't like running all that much when I am not playing the game itself....actually I hate training full stop...id rather just play. And you know what...its MY body so I can do what I like. Screw my team mates, I don't care if they are put out because I don't like running, training and practicing...furthermore I hate washing my kit...so I don't - I just let it sit in my kit bag all week stinking and smelling for next week...its my kit after all and I can do with it what I like. And well as for the opposition...if they don't like it they can lump it. I don't care if they are dry reaching at the stench of my unwashed kit because I am too shortsighted and selfish to the right thing by everyone and wash it. Oh yeah I also can't be bothered tackling or defending at all.. I am purely an offensive player who will only receive the ball and try to score every time even if the try is not on. If an opposition player runs past me...guess what.... tough luck...guess its try time for him. What...you are a little irritated by my actions fellow team mate? Screw you elitist pig, I don't like to tackle as I am sensitive and bruise easily. And guess what else - if my coach or anyone else tries to tell me that I need to buck up as my conduct is letting my team AND the broader rugby community down - I'll just scoff and call him an insensitive elitist.

Needless to say I didn't last long playing the game of Rugby.

Warhammer pillars - Collecting, Assembling, Painting, Playing. (Someone correct me if I am wrong here)

Rugby pillars - Training, Attacking, Defending, Sportsmanship (including making sure your kit is washed)

In my experience games are not generally about ME but rather US. And to me there is a basic level of conduct and expectation placed on participants to contribute to the game equally and in the right spirit. In my view fielding an un painted army seems disrespectful to a person who has worked hard to assemble and paint their models.

Perhaps if both armies are unpainted....nah UNACCEPTABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guys this was only intended to be a joke post so please don't get your knickers in a knot.

I don't know rugby, but let's talk baseball ( GO JAYS! All your Runs are belong to us!). If you hit .400, but can't field worth crap, teams Re literally climbing over each other to sign you. If you also happen to be a gold glover, all the better.

For 40k, If you're a blast to play with and can joke around and pop one liners where appropriate and you're fun to play against, then that's (in my opinion), the best. If you also have a nicely painted and converted army, all the better, but if you don't and someone won't play you because of your grey legion, you can come play me.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:
You know, some people get into the hobby the wrong way. If he happens to bring up the whole lack of painting thing, then I would point him to ebay. There are some armies fully painted on there sometimes at retail cost or less - already painted. If he's patient enough, he can snag a deal and then sell his current stuff. This is a win/win for a gamer like him.

For a gamer like who? As someone who enjoys assembling the minis most and playing far, far less, your proposal sounds like a lose-lose to me.

In your case, you could commission someone to paint them for you (If that's what your inferring - that you like putting them together and not painting). Unfortunately this is more expensive than the 'ebay way'.

Some people could care less about assembly & painting.

Well, first of all, welcome go the gaming scene. HUZZAH!

Sooooo. It's interesting that this topic has migrated to AoS already

In really broad terms, I really, really, really like to play with and against painted models, and our group plays with 100% painted models, including an awful lot of terrain. One unpainted model just looks jarring and out of place. All things being equal, I'll play with people with painted models first.

But.... I'm never a jerk about it, if I run into someone who doesn't. I mean, seriously, what am I gunna do... "NO! NO GAME FO JOO!!" Right?

In addition, AoS is still pretty new, and everyone's got to start somewhere. There are actual new players I've run into.. I mean, have never played a wargame. So, like, the expectations just can't be the same. Someone's new, excited, and wants to play the game... let them enjoy it, and for heaven's sake, don't tamp down their spirits. Soon enough we shall break it, bwahahahaha (joking).

There are also Sigmarite players, and at the price the models cost, I wouldn't want to make someone feel pressured into rushing through a cruddy paint job so that they can field them, or not play them for a couple months while they get painted up. I mean, field 'em, play 'em, paint 'em when you can.

At the same time, it depends a lot on your local group. If everyone has mostly painted models, and you're the odd man out, boy, are you incentivized to get your models painted. Likewise, seeing people with *nicely* painted models is a motivation for making an army look nicer, too (at least, it always has been for me). The opposite is true too -- if the local scene is less P&M oriented, and people play grey or primer legions, then, oh well, what can you do.

One thing to add, I see no positive to a legion of black (primer) over grey as an opponent. They're one and the same. So, if someone wants to play unpainted, I highly suggest they play bare plastic instead of primer. The reason is that if you prime them first, when you touch them, all your oils go onto the model, and it makes your model less receptive to paint (the bond won't be as good). If you play on grey plastic and spray *primer* on them, it will stick to the slightly oily models fine. Though, if you give your models a quick dip in soap & water and a quick rinse, that wont' hurt, and besides, we all know that if you're nice to your models, you'll get better dice rolls, right?

 infinite_array wrote:

 Motograter wrote:
Some elitism in this here thread.

I was wondering how long it would take before this got trotted out.

Surprised it took as long considering

RoperPG wrote:

ChazLikesCake wrote:

MongooseMatt wrote:

ChazLikesCake wrote:
Are any of those stores here in the South West perchance?

South West of where?

England. Cider country.

Wurr be too?
Is Barf swesty 'nuff?

Again, too close to civilisation.

Bottle wrote:

ChazLikesCake wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

GW Bristol? Hah :p

In AoS I have 90% of my army painted.

I don't mind playing grey armies, but I prefer painted.

Worse is when the models aren't even fully assembled and you are playing an army of legs on bases...

Bristol? I wish. Try heading further away from civilisation. Southwards.

I guessed Bristol because that's my regular and they also have the models displayed in just red and gold sprayer undercoats.

One more guess... Taunton?

Close enough, it was Exeter, but I lie in between Taunton and Exeter myself.

I'll stop derailing the thread now.

 Kriswall wrote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with belonging to a community that requires painted armies and charges fees for unpainted armies... but it IS exclusionary. It prioritizes (perceived) quality over quantity. You'll have fewer players, but they'll be "better" players. If you're ok with turning people away and being exclusionary... awesome! I don't want to belong to your club anyways!

In many walks of life, I prioritize quality over quantity. I do not do so in my hobby community. I would prefer that EVERYONE be included and allowed to participate, without penalty, regardless of how willing they are to paint their toys.

I'm not willing to tell people that since they don't play with their toys the way I play with my toys that they have to stay home and can't come to the party. Had I done so when I was 5 years old, my dad would have spoken to me sternly about how to play nice with others. Nothing has really changed in that regard.

TLDR - It's not wrong to have high personal standards and expectations... you just limit your potential circle of friends when you force those standards and expectations on others.

It is exclusionary and it's not the only standards we force on others, like sportsmanship. However rereading my post it might have come across as us painting out of fear of being fined. Honestly it's just never come up as an issue and I've never seen anyone be fined. Everyone who paints does so because they like it, those who don't like painting are happy to pay others to do it and we have players who don't like the modelling side of the hobby and don't collect anything and just play.

kungfujew wrote:
Painting requirements are for chumps. I refuse to play against any army that isn't full on custom converted. An important part of the hobby is also modeling, you know. Every unit must have at least one proper conversion in it and any "character" must be unique AND named, although I will tolerate kit bashes if I NEED to get a game in and no proper hobbyist is around.

5 page minimum army background and notable conflicts as well! Costumes and monologues are for weird LARPers, I want printed handouts! Forge the narrative for heaven's sake! If I wanted to play a straight up dice rolling game I'd be playing DnD!

Exalted

kungfujew wrote:
Painting requirements are for chumps. I refuse to play against any army that isn't full on custom converted. An important part of the hobby is also modeling, you know. Every unit must have at least one proper conversion in it and any "character" must be unique AND named, although I will tolerate kit bashes if I NEED to get a game in and no proper hobbyist is around.

5 page minimum army background and notable conflicts as well! Costumes and monologues are for weird LARPers, I want printed handouts! Forge the narrative for heaven's sake! If I wanted to play a straight up dice rolling game I'd be playing DnD!

That seems a bit extreme to demand others you play with must have that exact standard. At the same time, I think you have a good point - the hobby isn't about settling for convenience, its about the process of setting a good, miniature scenic narrative; the process and the end product, not these both being perpetually in limbo.

I wish more players could throw that sort of gauntlet down more often. I don't mind giving a pass to newbs, but if you've been in the hobby for awhile, you're sort of pushing either your ideals or laziness on the scene to be glorified. Painting up an army of 1500-2500 points simply does not take more than a few months of here and there work - for a tabletop standard. Seasoned players should surely have one painted army that is finished to use.

 kveldulf wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:
You know, some people get into the hobby the wrong way. If he happens to bring up the whole lack of painting thing, then I would point him to ebay. There are some armies fully painted on there sometimes at retail cost or less - already painted. If he's patient enough, he can snag a deal and then sell his current stuff. This is a win/win for a gamer like him.

For a gamer like who? As someone who enjoys assembling the minis most and playing far, far less, your proposal sounds like a lose-lose to me.

In your case, you could commission someone to paint them for you (If that's what your inferring - that you like putting them together and not painting). Unfortunately this is more expensive than the 'ebay way'.

Some people could care less about assembly & painting.

When I win the lotto, you can bet that I will commission a painter. Heck, I'll get JAH Joshua to paint my space marines. Until then, I don't even have enough money to keep up the trickle of shiny newness required to distract me from the ever-deepening despair that is my baseline emotion.


But I think I've got the trash talking part down solid.

There are people playing AOS with unpainted armies? Shouldn't they be playing Warmahordes? lol

Seriously though. I personally am someone who paints armies, but who's complete model collection is only half painted and growing... While I try to get stuff painted I do play with unpainted models.

Some people don't have time to paint, some people don't like doing it. Some people just like the game and have no interest in modeling. While I don't understand why someone wouldn't want to paint at least a simple scheme (as the appearance of your expensive hunk of plastic/metal/resin is greatly improved), each to their own I guess.

I think bare plastic looks much better than a very simple scheme. If my minis end up looking like Heroscape minis or worse, then I have ruined them.

War Kitten wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with it. Each person hobbies in their own way. Some people might not have time to paint, others may be bad painters and they don't want to make the attempt. The player may have only recently finished assembling the models and wanted to try them out. And yes. It would have been rude to suggest the guy spend time painting instead of playing, i know it would have irritated me.

I disagree....one player plays a game, the other participates in the hobby. The hobby consists of all things; modeling, collecting, painting, converting, playing etc. If someone just wants to play a game, I heard chess comes pre-painted.

Had a fun game of flames of war today. About half the stuff we used was unpainted or only primed / single colour undercloat the rest was painted or in the process of being painted. Each game in the club we tend to have worked a little more on our armies and having games to look forward to makes us eager to paint more. If we couldn't play until we painted we would likely lose interest before finishing a force.

 carlos13th wrote:
Had a fun game of flames of war today. About half the stuff we used was unpainted or only primed / single colour undercloat the rest was painted or in the process of being painted. Each game in the club we tend to have worked a little more on our armies and having games to look forward to makes us eager to paint more. If we couldn't play until we painted we would likely lose interest before finishing a force.

But see that is different, effort is being made...most are referring to "that guy" who still has the same primed black tau army he has been playing since Tau/Dar first hit the scene.

 quickfuze wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
Had a fun game of flames of war today. About half the stuff we used was unpainted or only primed / single colour undercloat the rest was painted or in the process of being painted. Each game in the club we tend to have worked a little more on our armies and having games to look forward to makes us eager to paint more. If we couldn't play until we painted we would likely lose interest before finishing a force.

But see that is different, effort is being made...most are referring to "that guy" who still has the same primed black tau army he has been playing since Tau/Dar first hit the scene.

Some people never play unpainted or have clubs that don't allow any unpainted models to be fielded at all. All those approaches are fine as long as the people involved agree.

As I have said elsewhere you are perfectly welcome to say to "that guy" you dont want to play against unpainted armies. However some people take that to far and say that "that guy" shouldn't be allowed to play with his unpainted army. The first approach is fine as you shouldn't have to play a game that isnt the kind of game you want to play however the second approach isn't fine as its an attempt to force your hobby desires upon another person. If someone doesn't care about painting let them not care, you don't have to play them and it doesn't make them lesser for not caring.

@quickfuse - I think of "the hobby" in the same way as you (everything from painting to building to converting to collecting to playing the game). On the other hand, not everyone does, and when I played in 40k public games, there were guys who would prime models black, hit them with silver with an airbrush from one direction and call it a day. To me, that's "almost unpainted" in that it offers me no eye candy or cool factor, which is the dominant reason that I play tabletop miniature games.

At the end of the day, the only way to play with like-minded hobbyists and gamers, IMO, is to find or build a group that likes the same thing as yourself. That's not being a paint snob and it's not an indictment of people who don't want to paint models, just a recognition that not everyone wants the same thing out of the hobby in equal proportions, and if playing with painted models is important to you (it is to me), the remedy isn't for me to enforce my standards onto others, but to be more selective about who I play with.

It's particularly important to me in my current situation, because with family obligations and the amount of time game nights suck up, I only play 2-3 nights a month, so I really want it to count!

 Talys wrote:
@quickfuse - I think of "the hobby" in the same way as you (everything from painting to building to converting to collecting to playing the game). On the other hand, not everyone does, and when I played in 40k public games, there were guys who would prime models black, hit them with silver with an airbrush from one direction and call it a day. To me, that's "almost unpainted" in that it offers me no eye candy or cool factor, which is the dominant reason that I play tabletop miniature games.

At the end of the day, the only way to play with like-minded hobbyists and gamers, IMO, is to find or build a group that likes the same thing as yourself. That's not being a paint snob and it's not an indictment of people who don't want to paint models, just a recognition that not everyone wants the same thing out of the hobby in equal proportions, and if playing with painted models is important to you (it is to me), the remedy isn't for me to enforce my standards onto others, but to be more selective about who I play with.

It's particularly important to me in my current situation, because with family obligations and the amount of time game nights suck up, I only play 2-3 nights a month, so I really want it to count!

I actually agree about the like minded gamers part, but I want to expound on the thought process a bit for some other posters. If you want to buy two armies of grey plastic and set them up across from each other and run back and forth from side to side playing both armies, then yes by all means the hobby is whatever you want it to be. However, in a pick up game, which is in essence a social contract between two people to play a game, painting your own army is as much for creating a rich, vivid, immersive experience for your opponent as it is for yourself. By saying "F-it, i don't like painting so I am not doing it" you are in essence saying that the only persons enjoyment from the game that matters is your own. Let's be honest, with the availability of cheap airbrushes, spray can paints, online tutorials, pre-selected color sets, pre-mixed washes etc; there really is no excuse for not having "3 color minimum" . Some will argue "well you don't HAVE to play them then", and I completely agree with that; but dont call me a snob or elitist if I choose not to because I don't like the fact that my opponent doesn't care enough about both sides having a complete experience and is only concerned with only what they value from the hobby.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:I think bare plastic looks much better than a very simple scheme. If my minis end up looking like Heroscape minis or worse, then I have ruined them.

Have an exalt, truth has been told.

quickfuze wrote:
I disagree....one player plays a game, the other participates in the hobby. The hobby consists of all things; modeling, collecting, painting, converting, playing etc. If someone just wants to play a game, I heard chess comes pre-painted.

Converting, huh? I know a lot of people who don't convert their minis for various reasons. Are they some worse kind of players that suddenly don't participate in the hobby and instead they "just" play the game? Your post couldn't have come out any more condescending. I don't paint because I don't want to rush stuff and have my miniatures painted on mediocre level - I prefer unpainted to painted badly, I really don't get why so many people can't grasp that simple thing. Look at Star Wars Miniatures Game or aforementioned Heroscape. Is it really that hard to grasp why some would rather have clean, neat, detailed grey plastic miniatures rather than atrocities like that? Or this? Now I'm not saying that anyone here would paint like that, but if I am not going to be content with my paintjob, I am not going to do it at all. I spend money and time buying, assembling and converting/kitbashing my miniatures and I am not going to half-ass the paintjob because I either lack skill or time to do it well enough for me to enjoy it (because I couldn't care less how my opponent does - I bet my christian friend wouldn't appreciate all the occult stuff I want to paint all over my Word Bearers CSM).

And none of my friends so far seem to be putting as much effort into kitbashing and converting their minis - some of them go as far as just assembling them and, dear God, painting them just before ONLY playing the game! How dare they! Maybe I don't like playing against unconverted miniatures? See the flaw in that logic? Some people here say stuff along the lines of "I spent time painting them, my opponent should do the same!" but what about conversions? If I spent time assembling, removing mould lines from and converting my models to make each truly unique am I not entitled to expect my friends to put as much work in converting their minis?

Wait, I will put the answer in a spoiler so some people can first get there themselves.


So... did you get the right answer? Does anyone have to try again? Feel free to.

Well, here we are! The end of this ranty post, sheesh, did I get upset! But yeah, noone has the right to tell others how they should be enjoying their hobby they spent their money on.

P.s. - I really didn't get angry, I just write like that, no anger here, maybe mild irritation that someone might be arrogant enough to act like he can decide what people should be doing with their toy soldiers.

 Klerych wrote:

BobtheInquisitor wrote:I think bare plastic looks much better than a very simple scheme. If my minis end up looking like Heroscape minis or worse, then I have ruined them.

Have an exalt, truth has been told.

quickfuze wrote:
I disagree....one player plays a game, the other participates in the hobby. The hobby consists of all things; modeling, collecting, painting, converting, playing etc. If someone just wants to play a game, I heard chess comes pre-painted.

Converting, huh? I know a lot of people who don't convert their minis for various reasons. Are they some worse kind of players that suddenly don't participate in the hobby and instead they "just" play the game? Your post couldn't have come out any more condescending. I don't paint because I don't want to rush stuff and have my miniatures painted on mediocre level - I prefer unpainted to painted badly, I really don't get why so many people can't grasp that simple thing. Look at Star Wars Miniatures Game or aforementioned Heroscape. Is it really that hard to grasp why some would rather have clean, neat, detailed grey plastic miniatures rather than atrocities like that? Or this? Now I'm not saying that anyone here would paint like that, but if I am not going to be content with my paintjob, I am not going to do it at all. I spend money and time buying, assembling and converting/kitbashing my miniatures and I am not going to half-ass the paintjob because I either lack skill or time to do it well enough for me to enjoy it (because I couldn't care less how my opponent does - I bet my christian friend wouldn't appreciate all the occult stuff I want to paint all over my Word Bearers CSM).

And none of my friends so far seem to be putting as much effort into kitbashing and converting their minis - some of them go as far as just assembling them and, dear God, painting them just before ONLY playing the game! How dare they! Maybe I don't like playing against unconverted miniatures? See the flaw in that logic? Some people here say stuff along the lines of "I spent time painting them, my opponent should do the same!" but what about conversions? If I spent time assembling, removing mould lines from and converting my models to make each truly unique am I not entitled to expect my friends to put as much work in converting their minis?

Wait, I will put the answer in a spoiler so some people can first get there themselves.

Spoiler:

NO. I have no right to expect anything from my opponent other than sportsmanship as playing against each other is the only aspect of the game both people share at the same time!

So... did you get the right answer? Does anyone have to try again? Feel free to.

Well, here we are! The end of this ranty post, sheesh, did I get upset! But yeah, noone has the right to tell others how they should be enjoying their hobby they spent their money on.

P.s. - I really didn't get angry, I just write like that, no anger here, maybe mild irritation that someone might be arrogant enough to act like he can decide what people should be doing with their toy soldiers.

Your rant actually made me laugh...thank you. Also thanks for completely missing the point. Of course not every model is going to be converted, in fact maybe none will be, that is but one aspect of many in the hobby. You took something that was an example of mind set and tried to make it into a literal translation. You have to assemble the models to play with them, so bare grey plastic is the start point (unless by your thinking you can just push the sprues around the table, and by your statements I wouldn't put it past you trying o argue that). So assembly is the start point, then yes absolutely you care only about one aspect of the hobby if that is where you stop, and as such only care about what you get out of the two player game. Your argument " but if I am not going to be content with my paint job, I am not going to do it at all" is strawman....very few people are born with innate natural talent and must practice to get better; as with most things in life (you'll never win the lottery if you never play). Again you were so busy ranting, that you failed to see in my follow-up post that yes I agree with you. I cannot tell anyone how to play with their little plastic men, but what I said was don't get uppity with me when I refuse because I do want to play in a more immersive, complete setting.

 quickfuze wrote:


Your rant actually made me laugh...thank you. Also thanks for completely missing the point. Of course not every model is going to be converted, in fact maybe none will be, that is but one aspect of many in the hobby. You took something that was an example of mind set and tried to make it into a literal translation. You have to assemble the models to play with them, so bare grey plastic is the start point (unless by your thinking you can just push the sprues around the table, and by your statements I wouldn't put it past you trying o argue that). So assembly is the start point, then yes absolutely you care only about one aspect of the hobby if that is where you stop, and as such only care about what you get out of the two player game. Your argument " but if I am not going to be content with my paint job, I am not going to do it at all" is strawman....very few people are born with innate natural talent and must practice to get better; as with most things in life (you'll never win the lottery if you never play). Again you were so busy ranting, that you failed to see in my follow-up post that yes I agree with you. I cannot tell anyone how to play with their little plastic men, but what I said was don't get uppity with me when I refuse because I do want to play in a more immersive, complete setting.

Actually I believe I haven't missed the point. I just overblew it to show how dubious it is. The way you said that the people who don't enjoy painting should go play chess because it comes pre-painted only served the purpose of trying to make people feel bad about not painting theirs and somehow making them worse kind of players. And so I used converting as an example.

I never said that I am outright bad, but tell you something - to paint decently a single infantry dude I need about four hours. That's the level I am going to accept. I lose my patience after 1 hour. Remaining three are torment. Not everyone has the patience for stuff like that, not everyone likes the same things as some, so between this and my limited free time I am always going to choose either buying new models and assembling them as I enjoy it more or playing the game. To learn how to paint faster and better I would have to spend more time than I can or want to devote to it, and even then, in the end, I am not going to enjoy it just like my mother never got to enjoy sculpting despite many tries. And guess what - she's not a worse artist and I am not a worse gamer just because I would rather spend my time enjoying different aspects of this hobby.

And yeah, I haven't seen your follow-up post because it popped up as I was typing mine, so I only saw it after refreshing the thread, obviously.

I hate to play against an unpainted or bad painted army. Sry but guys without painted armys are so uncreative and untalented. Its boring and it blame my full (and awesome) painted army. I mean WTF grey figures? or just black/wihite. WHAT THE HELL! It is a lot of rage- i know- but i hate it so! Even if you are a not so skilled painter, i see it on the table and know at least he tried, Its good for me but stop putting your grey or black stuff on the talbe!

...

And AoS becomes an official tabletop wargame with the creation of its very own dakkadakka Painted vs Unpainted thread.

Hooray! Welcome AoS. Here is your name tag, just stick it to your shirt there so the other games know who you are. The punch bowl is over there. Go mingle!

Cheers. I like painting too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You'll pay for this Loxley!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We maaaay look like sissies, but don't take us wrong! Or we'll put out your lights!

We're men!

 darkcloak wrote:
...

And AoS becomes an official tabletop wargame with the creation of its very own dakkadakka Painted vs Unpainted thread.

Hooray! Welcome AoS. Here is your name tag, just stick it to your shirt there so the other games know who you are. The punch bowl is over there. Go mingle!

Cheers. I like painting too.

Ain't that the truth?

The irony, of course, is that you could just plunk the thread (title and all) into any other game's discussion forum, hehehe.

 Paintalist wrote:
I hate to play against an unpainted or bad painted army. Sry but guys without painted armys are so uncreative and untalented. Its boring and it blame my full (and awesome) painted army. I mean WTF grey figures? or just black/wihite. WHAT THE HELL! It is a lot of rage- i know- but i hate it so! Even if you are a not so skilled painter, i see it on the table and know at least he tried, Its good for me but stop putting your grey or black stuff on the talbe!

If this rant was a movie it would be titled "How to contradict yourself in 100 words or less".

I actually like the hobby aspect of Warhammer and WH40K more than the gaming aspect. I feel I am a passable painter (just a little bit higher than tabletop quality) and I love to convert figures, whether in metal or plastic.

I respect any effort another player makes towards painting their force, even if it's hitting the table in progress, I feel it brings the table to life during a game like really cool scenery. I don't care about their skill level in it relative to mine, it's all about putting your personal touch on making your army "unique" and yours alone.

To me not giving a care to painting at all (not the ones who don't have the time, the ones who just don't care to make the effort), would be like not giving a crap about terrain and just shrugging and writing things in pencil on squares of paper or cloth forever, when very little effort can make things look cool. Especially when there are situations where players don't even care to assemble the figures well, or completely.

One of the cool things I liked about the Rackham games At43 and Confrontation: Age of Ragnorok, is that being pretty decent quality prepaints everyone's armies started out looking cool and in full color, and people who wanted to spend the time could go above and beyond that to make things personal.

I think that a painted army (whether painted poor, table top quality, or higher) looks great on the tabletop. As long as an army has a uniform theme, the minis really pop on table tops. This added to a painted board and terrain really helps me immerse myself into the game and makes games more enjoyable.

However, I will play anyone, even if their army is not painted. When I see an unpainted army, I always think of the times in life my time was limited due to 19 credit semesters (with a job as well), to 60+ hour work weeks, to having kids. I think it would be shallow to judge someone else based on their unpainted army without knowing them well or their life schedule (maybe they have kids, play in sports, are in college or grad school, social events, medical problems, family problems, etc).

To recap, I prefer painted but will gladly play an individual with an unpainted army.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I actually like the hobby aspect of Warhammer and WH40K more than the gaming aspect. I feel I am a passable painter (just a little bit higher than tabletop quality) and I love to convert figures, whether in metal or plastic.

I respect any effort another player makes towards painting their force, even if it's hitting the table in progress, I feel it brings the table to life during a game like really cool scenery. I don't care about their skill level in it relative to mine, it's all about putting your personal touch on making your army "unique" and yours alone.

To me not giving a care to painting at all (not the ones who don't have the time, the ones who just don't care to make the effort), would be like not giving a crap about terrain and just shrugging and writing things in pencil on squares of paper or cloth forever, when very little effort can make things look cool. Especially when there are situations where players don't even care to assemble the figures well, or completely.

One of the cool things I liked about the Rackham games At43 and Confrontation: Age of Ragnorok, is that being pretty decent quality prepaints everyone's armies started out looking cool and in full color, and people who wanted to spend the time could go above and beyond that to make things personal.

I'm a lot like you, now. My time spent on P&M far exceeds my game time, though some of this is probably just because it's hard to get guys together for the length of time 40k takes to play.

Playing with nice terrain now, to me, is as important as playing with nice models. But.... for my first 10 years or so of 40k, all of our terrain were pieces of felt A hill was brown felt. The hilltop was a yellow strip of felt. Trees were green felt. Building was grey felt. and so on Wow, that feels like a long time ago, LOL.

No big deal.
I play either fully painted or unpainted nonundercoated armies.

 Kriswall wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Elitism? No. I don't think anyone has said that people with unpainted armies are _better_.

I don't play against children, people who play Magic or Warmachine or people who don't speak English either, because I don't enjoy doing so. I don't claim to be _better_ than them, though.

Nobody has explicitly said that people with painted armies are better. HOWEVER...

When someone says (paraphrased from comments in this thread) "We don't allow anyone with an unpainted army to play at our table", it is generally heard by people with unpainted armies as "If your army isn't painted, you aren't good enough to play with us". The attitude comes off as very elitist even if it's not intended to be. Remember, perception is reality. Your intentions makes almost no difference if your audience is getting the wrong message. You might need to modify the way it's being delivered.

Compare...

1. "We require fully painted armies. If you don't paint your models, you can't play here. Besides, it's not rocket science. Try harder. Go watch a Youtube video or something."

2. "We embrace every aspect of this hobby and love seeing fully painted models fighting epic battles. To whit, we do require that if you want to use our tables that you bring a fully painted army. If you're not interested in painting or find it too challenging, let us know! There are plenty of simple techniques we can share or even contract painters we can point you towards. We're looking forward to seeing you join us on the battlefield."

Same message, two deliveries. One comes off as elitist, the other comes off as simply having high standards and being excited.

I don't recall saying anything that would imply statement number 1. I'm not sure why you picked up on me specifically.

As it happens, I run a wargames club. There's no restrictions about having painted minis, the right minis, anything like that. All that sort of thing is down to the players involved in each game to sort out, and I've never had any problems. Playing a game with two painted armies on proper painted terrain is my personal preference and it's a large part of the decision process about who I choose to play against. I'm not going to force it on anyone else.All I look for in an opponent is someone who's put as much effort in as I have.

 Talys wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
...

And AoS becomes an official tabletop wargame with the creation of its very own dakkadakka Painted vs Unpainted thread.
...

...
The irony, of course, is that you could just plunk the thread (title and all) into any other game's discussion forum, hehehe.

That's one of the things that bugs me about forums; people putting general topics into a specific sub-forum.

 quickfuze wrote:

War Kitten wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with it. Each person hobbies in their own way. Some people might not have time to paint, others may be bad painters and they don't want to make the attempt. The player may have only recently finished assembling the models and wanted to try them out. And yes. It would have been rude to suggest the guy spend time painting instead of playing, i know it would have irritated me.

I disagree....one player plays a game, the other participates in the hobby. The hobby consists of all things; modeling, collecting, painting, converting, playing etc. If someone just wants to play a game, I heard chess comes pre-painted.

To get a force ready for playing even without painting they've already had to collect and build, so actually they still are as much in the hobby as someone who collects and paints but doesn't game, or collects, paints and games but doesn't do conversions. And what if they don't like chess? What they aren't allowed to play a game they enjoy because they don't enjoy painting?

I'm all for you saying 'I'm sorry I'm not going to play you because I'd rather play against painted armies'. That's fine, no issues. It's when you get comments like 'people shouldn't be allowed to play with unpainted models' or here; 'you should just go and play chess if you don't paint your models' that I take issue with. There's a difference between not playing people who don't paint their models because you don't enjoy it, and telling people that they're doing the hobby wrong for not painting their models. They aren't. They're doing it differently.

I paint as I go along. My WoC army is about 1/3 painted, and almost everything is at least undercoated (except Tzeentch warriors, because I don't want them getting mistakenly put in with Slaanesh warriors, until they get finished). I'd be miffed by somebody saying I can't play because I'm not done. Even when I finally finished, I wouldn't opt to play that guy. Time is a real constraint. I work 50-60 hour work weeks at times, PLUS an hour a day of driving to and from, plus need for sleep. Then time spent with friends or family. Sometimes that leaves me an hour left of the day. And I just want to drop in front of a movie. Other times I'll build and paint my full Warshrine in a single shot. Or my Nurgle Sorc. Two hours, done. But I take my time and put a lot of effort in. I can't speed paint.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think bare plastic looks much better than a very simple scheme. If my minis end up looking like Heroscape minis or worse, then I have ruined them.

Simple schemes don't have to be bad... Just clever... If you do it cleverly you can go back later and complete the paint job. Still looks better then bare plasitc IMO. For example a paint scheme I am using to quickly get 2 panzers out (time poor myself atm) for a FOW tournament in a few days is just spray- wash- drybrush- paint tracks brown and drybrush metal. Doubt I'll have time to ad transfers, paint tools, paint road wheels, tank commander etc, etc. But I can do that later. Will still look better then unpainted and will earn me tourny points. Each to their own I guess.

Still I guess painting is a skill you need to learn a bit. My first proper/serious/educated attempt at painting (discounting when I was 7/9/12 etc) was at 15. My Ultramarine tactical squad isn't brilliant... but you get better...