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kungfujew wrote:
Painting requirements are for chumps. I refuse to play against any army that isn't full on custom converted. An important part of the hobby is also modeling, you know. Every unit must have at least one proper conversion in it and any "character" must be unique AND named, although I will tolerate kit bashes if I NEED to get a game in and no proper hobbyist is around.

5 page minimum army background and notable conflicts as well! Costumes and monologues are for weird LARPers, I want printed handouts! Forge the narrative for heaven's sake! If I wanted to play a straight up dice rolling game I'd be playing DnD!

Your argument is crappy because someone who thinks modeling is important is likely to think assembling the models is enough to satisfy anyone who values modeling. Just like anyone who values painting does not need you to paint beyond what is a reasonable standard.

Or you missed the point completely.

kungfujew wrote:
Or you missed the point completely.

Explain the point?

I am likely being munted.

kungfujew wrote:
Painting requirements are for chumps. I refuse to play against any army that isn't full on custom converted. An important part of the hobby is also modeling, you know. Every unit must have at least one proper conversion in it and any "character" must be unique AND named, although I will tolerate kit bashes if I NEED to get a game in and no proper hobbyist is around.

5 page minimum army background and notable conflicts as well! Costumes and monologues are for weird LARPers, I want printed handouts! Forge the narrative for heaven's sake! If I wanted to play a straight up dice rolling game I'd be playing DnD!

Or alternatively... just pick up a brush, collect together a few paints....and start painting. You may surprise yourself. I did.

Also, I think a HUGE part of the. Hobby is trash talking. But real trash talking, not gloating or being mean or pissing and moaning (or praising) dice. Catch phrases and quotes.

The best part of this hobby is that there's so much to this hobby.

Oh, I only play with painted models. I've been playing since second edition, started painting in 5th and started really heavily converting in 7th. But I would never, ever turn down a game.

ChazLikesCake wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

GW Bristol? Hah :p

In AoS I have 90% of my army painted.

I don't mind playing grey armies, but I prefer painted.

Worse is when the models aren't even fully assembled and you are playing an army of legs on bases...

Bristol? I wish. Try heading further away from civilisation. Southwards.

I guessed Bristol because that's my regular and they also have the models displayed in just red and gold sprayer undercoats.

One more guess... Taunton?

 Swastakowey wrote:

kungfujew wrote:
Or you missed the point completely.

Explain the point?

I am likely being munted.

My point was that you could take any single aspect of this glorious hobby and elevate it above all others. Painting is the most common, but you could do it with moddeling or even PLAYING. To be serious for a moment instead of taking the arguement to it's absurd conclution, I beleive that the most important part of this hobby is the social interaction. I love it when people come over and look at my conversions and ask about them or comment about them. I love even more to be able to do that. I love talking about painting techniques which people who are clearly better painters than me and I love giving tips on how I was able to get my model to look a particular way to people who are worse painters. But what I love most of all is playing the game. Interacting with the guy across the table. Enjoying being out with "the guys" even if "the guys" are girls. This is, to me, first and formost and social hobby. That guy with the grey legion might be the most entertaining person you'll ever meet. If you want to skip that game, go right ahead. Your loss.

kungfujew wrote:
Also, I think a HUGE part of the. Hobby is trash talking. But real trash talking, not gloating or being mean or pissing and moaning (or praising) dice. Catch phrases and quotes.

The best part of this hobby is that there's so much to this hobby.

Oh, I only play with painted models. I've been playing since second edition, started painting in 5th and started really heavily converting in 7th. But I would never, ever turn down a game.

In the spirit of trash talking and being a bit silly about the whole subject.... (and please don't take this post seriously folks )

Sooo..... when I call out the chump fielding the "sea of grey" army and point out that he is a disgrace to his hobby associates and the Gods of Tabletop Gaming are crying rivers of tears all because he is too spineless, lazy and quite frankly pathetic to PAINT HIS FRICKING ARMY...he will jovially shrug it off, thank me for my enlightening comments and offer to buy me a beer for my troubles...

A hypothetical in response to the "they are my toys and I shall do with them what I will" crew...not a perfect analogy but I'll give it a good crack...

I have another hobby...it is playing rugby...although unfortunately I hate going for a weekly 2km jog because...well...I don't have the time and I just don't like running all that much when I am not playing the game itself....actually I hate training full stop...id rather just play. And you know what...its MY body so I can do what I like. Screw my team mates, I don't care if they are put out because I don't like running, training and practicing...furthermore I hate washing my kit...so I don't - I just let it sit in my kit bag all week stinking and smelling for next week...its my kit after all and I can do with it what I like. And well as for the opposition...if they don't like it they can lump it. I don't care if they are dry reaching at the stench of my unwashed kit because I am too shortsighted and selfish to the right thing by everyone and wash it. Oh yeah I also can't be bothered tackling or defending at all.. I am purely an offensive player who will only receive the ball and try to score every time even if the try is not on. If an opposition player runs past me...guess what.... tough luck...guess its try time for him. What...you are a little irritated by my actions fellow team mate? Screw you elitist pig, I don't like to tackle as I am sensitive and bruise easily. And guess what else - if my coach or anyone else tries to tell me that I need to buck up as my conduct is letting my team AND the broader rugby community down - I'll just scoff and call him an insensitive elitist.

Needless to say I didn't last long playing the game of Rugby.

Warhammer pillars - Collecting, Assembling, Painting, Playing. (Someone correct me if I am wrong here)

Rugby pillars - Training, Attacking, Defending, Sportsmanship (including making sure your kit is washed)

In my experience games are not generally about ME but rather US. And to me there is a basic level of conduct and expectation placed on participants to contribute to the game equally and in the right spirit. In my view fielding an un painted army seems disrespectful to a person who has worked hard to assemble and paint their models.

Perhaps if both armies are unpainted....nah UNACCEPTABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guys this was only intended to be a joke post so please don't get your knickers in a knot.

ChazLikesCake wrote:

MongooseMatt wrote:

ChazLikesCake wrote:
Are any of those stores here in the South West perchance?

South West of where?

England. Cider country.

Wurr be too?
Is Barf swesty 'nuff?

 Orock wrote:
Some people have army alt- it is. They resell better on rby naked than with a mediocre paint job. And I wouldn't drive off potential players by sticking a snooty nose up at the unpainted model peasants. Beggars can't be choosers and you will be lucky to find anyone willing to play this train wreck in a year as is.

while I agree with your point, way to finish it off with the oh-so typical GW hate-on at the end.

to the OP: this line of thought is a really dick way to think. My army is barley painted because I have 2 jobs, college, family, and other things to do. While I am trying to paint, If I went to a store, and was told "I won't play you, your army isn't painted enough" I would probably cuss the guy out, and not play him when I did finish painting my army.

Tinwhistle wrote:

kungfujew wrote:
Also, I think a HUGE part of the. Hobby is trash talking. But real trash talking, not gloating or being mean or pissing and moaning (or praising) dice. Catch phrases and quotes.

The best part of this hobby is that there's so much to this hobby.

Oh, I only play with painted models. I've been playing since second edition, started painting in 5th and started really heavily converting in 7th. But I would never, ever turn down a game.

In the spirit of trash talking and being a bit silly about the whole subject.... (and please don't take this post seriously folks )

Sooo..... when I call out the chump fielding the "sea of grey" army and point out that he is a disgrace to his hobby associates and the Gods of Tabletop Gaming are crying rivers of tears all because he is too spineless, lazy and quite frankly pathetic to PAINT HIS FRICKING ARMY...he will jovially shrug it off, thank me for my enlightening comments and offer to buy me a beer for my troubles...

A hypothetical in response to the "they are my toys and I shall do with them what I will" crew...not a perfect analogy but I'll give it a good crack...

I have another hobby...it is playing rugby...although unfortunately I hate going for a weekly 2km jog because...well...I don't have the time and I just don't like running all that much when I am not playing the game itself....actually I hate training full stop...id rather just play. And you know what...its MY body so I can do what I like. Screw my team mates, I don't care if they are put out because I don't like running, training and practicing...furthermore I hate washing my kit...so I don't - I just let it sit in my kit bag all week stinking and smelling for next week...its my kit after all and I can do with it what I like. And well as for the opposition...if they don't like it they can lump it. I don't care if they are dry reaching at the stench of my unwashed kit because I am too shortsighted and selfish to the right thing by everyone and wash it. Oh yeah I also can't be bothered tackling or defending at all.. I am purely an offensive player who will only receive the ball and try to score every time even if the try is not on. If an opposition player runs past me...guess what.... tough luck...guess its try time for him. What...you are a little irritated by my actions fellow team mate? Screw you elitist pig, I don't like to tackle as I am sensitive and bruise easily. And guess what else - if my coach or anyone else tries to tell me that I need to buck up as my conduct is letting my team AND the broader rugby community down - I'll just scoff and call him an insensitive elitist.

Needless to say I didn't last long playing the game of Rugby.

Warhammer pillars - Collecting, Assembling, Painting, Playing. (Someone correct me if I am wrong here)

Rugby pillars - Training, Attacking, Defending, Sportsmanship (including making sure your kit is washed)

In my experience games are not generally about ME but rather US. And to me there is a basic level of conduct and expectation placed on participants to contribute to the game equally and in the right spirit. In my view fielding an un painted army seems disrespectful to a person who has worked hard to assemble and paint their models.

Perhaps if both armies are unpainted....nah UNACCEPTABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guys this was only intended to be a joke post so please don't get your knickers in a knot.

I don't know rugby, but let's talk baseball ( GO JAYS! All your Runs are belong to us!). If you hit .400, but can't field worth crap, teams Re literally climbing over each other to sign you. If you also happen to be a gold glover, all the better.

For 40k, If you're a blast to play with and can joke around and pop one liners where appropriate and you're fun to play against, then that's (in my opinion), the best. If you also have a nicely painted and converted army, all the better, but if you don't and someone won't play you because of your grey legion, you can come play me.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:
You know, some people get into the hobby the wrong way. If he happens to bring up the whole lack of painting thing, then I would point him to ebay. There are some armies fully painted on there sometimes at retail cost or less - already painted. If he's patient enough, he can snag a deal and then sell his current stuff. This is a win/win for a gamer like him.

For a gamer like who? As someone who enjoys assembling the minis most and playing far, far less, your proposal sounds like a lose-lose to me.

In your case, you could commission someone to paint them for you (If that's what your inferring - that you like putting them together and not painting). Unfortunately this is more expensive than the 'ebay way'.

Some people could care less about assembly & painting.

Well, first of all, welcome go the gaming scene. HUZZAH!

Sooooo. It's interesting that this topic has migrated to AoS already

In really broad terms, I really, really, really like to play with and against painted models, and our group plays with 100% painted models, including an awful lot of terrain. One unpainted model just looks jarring and out of place. All things being equal, I'll play with people with painted models first.

But.... I'm never a jerk about it, if I run into someone who doesn't. I mean, seriously, what am I gunna do... "NO! NO GAME FO JOO!!" Right?

In addition, AoS is still pretty new, and everyone's got to start somewhere. There are actual new players I've run into.. I mean, have never played a wargame. So, like, the expectations just can't be the same. Someone's new, excited, and wants to play the game... let them enjoy it, and for heaven's sake, don't tamp down their spirits. Soon enough we shall break it, bwahahahaha (joking).

There are also Sigmarite players, and at the price the models cost, I wouldn't want to make someone feel pressured into rushing through a cruddy paint job so that they can field them, or not play them for a couple months while they get painted up. I mean, field 'em, play 'em, paint 'em when you can.

At the same time, it depends a lot on your local group. If everyone has mostly painted models, and you're the odd man out, boy, are you incentivized to get your models painted. Likewise, seeing people with *nicely* painted models is a motivation for making an army look nicer, too (at least, it always has been for me). The opposite is true too -- if the local scene is less P&M oriented, and people play grey or primer legions, then, oh well, what can you do.

One thing to add, I see no positive to a legion of black (primer) over grey as an opponent. They're one and the same. So, if someone wants to play unpainted, I highly suggest they play bare plastic instead of primer. The reason is that if you prime them first, when you touch them, all your oils go onto the model, and it makes your model less receptive to paint (the bond won't be as good). If you play on grey plastic and spray *primer* on them, it will stick to the slightly oily models fine. Though, if you give your models a quick dip in soap & water and a quick rinse, that wont' hurt, and besides, we all know that if you're nice to your models, you'll get better dice rolls, right?

 infinite_array wrote:

 Motograter wrote:
Some elitism in this here thread.

I was wondering how long it would take before this got trotted out.

Surprised it took as long considering

RoperPG wrote:

ChazLikesCake wrote:

MongooseMatt wrote:

ChazLikesCake wrote:
Are any of those stores here in the South West perchance?

South West of where?

England. Cider country.

Wurr be too?
Is Barf swesty 'nuff?

Again, too close to civilisation.

Bottle wrote:

ChazLikesCake wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

GW Bristol? Hah :p

In AoS I have 90% of my army painted.

I don't mind playing grey armies, but I prefer painted.

Worse is when the models aren't even fully assembled and you are playing an army of legs on bases...

Bristol? I wish. Try heading further away from civilisation. Southwards.

I guessed Bristol because that's my regular and they also have the models displayed in just red and gold sprayer undercoats.

One more guess... Taunton?

Close enough, it was Exeter, but I lie in between Taunton and Exeter myself.

I'll stop derailing the thread now.

 Kriswall wrote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with belonging to a community that requires painted armies and charges fees for unpainted armies... but it IS exclusionary. It prioritizes (perceived) quality over quantity. You'll have fewer players, but they'll be "better" players. If you're ok with turning people away and being exclusionary... awesome! I don't want to belong to your club anyways!

In many walks of life, I prioritize quality over quantity. I do not do so in my hobby community. I would prefer that EVERYONE be included and allowed to participate, without penalty, regardless of how willing they are to paint their toys.

I'm not willing to tell people that since they don't play with their toys the way I play with my toys that they have to stay home and can't come to the party. Had I done so when I was 5 years old, my dad would have spoken to me sternly about how to play nice with others. Nothing has really changed in that regard.

TLDR - It's not wrong to have high personal standards and expectations... you just limit your potential circle of friends when you force those standards and expectations on others.

It is exclusionary and it's not the only standards we force on others, like sportsmanship. However rereading my post it might have come across as us painting out of fear of being fined. Honestly it's just never come up as an issue and I've never seen anyone be fined. Everyone who paints does so because they like it, those who don't like painting are happy to pay others to do it and we have players who don't like the modelling side of the hobby and don't collect anything and just play.

kungfujew wrote:
Painting requirements are for chumps. I refuse to play against any army that isn't full on custom converted. An important part of the hobby is also modeling, you know. Every unit must have at least one proper conversion in it and any "character" must be unique AND named, although I will tolerate kit bashes if I NEED to get a game in and no proper hobbyist is around.

5 page minimum army background and notable conflicts as well! Costumes and monologues are for weird LARPers, I want printed handouts! Forge the narrative for heaven's sake! If I wanted to play a straight up dice rolling game I'd be playing DnD!

Exalted

kungfujew wrote:
Painting requirements are for chumps. I refuse to play against any army that isn't full on custom converted. An important part of the hobby is also modeling, you know. Every unit must have at least one proper conversion in it and any "character" must be unique AND named, although I will tolerate kit bashes if I NEED to get a game in and no proper hobbyist is around.

5 page minimum army background and notable conflicts as well! Costumes and monologues are for weird LARPers, I want printed handouts! Forge the narrative for heaven's sake! If I wanted to play a straight up dice rolling game I'd be playing DnD!

That seems a bit extreme to demand others you play with must have that exact standard. At the same time, I think you have a good point - the hobby isn't about settling for convenience, its about the process of setting a good, miniature scenic narrative; the process and the end product, not these both being perpetually in limbo.

I wish more players could throw that sort of gauntlet down more often. I don't mind giving a pass to newbs, but if you've been in the hobby for awhile, you're sort of pushing either your ideals or laziness on the scene to be glorified. Painting up an army of 1500-2500 points simply does not take more than a few months of here and there work - for a tabletop standard. Seasoned players should surely have one painted army that is finished to use.

 kveldulf wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:
You know, some people get into the hobby the wrong way. If he happens to bring up the whole lack of painting thing, then I would point him to ebay. There are some armies fully painted on there sometimes at retail cost or less - already painted. If he's patient enough, he can snag a deal and then sell his current stuff. This is a win/win for a gamer like him.

For a gamer like who? As someone who enjoys assembling the minis most and playing far, far less, your proposal sounds like a lose-lose to me.

In your case, you could commission someone to paint them for you (If that's what your inferring - that you like putting them together and not painting). Unfortunately this is more expensive than the 'ebay way'.

Some people could care less about assembly & painting.

When I win the lotto, you can bet that I will commission a painter. Heck, I'll get JAH Joshua to paint my space marines. Until then, I don't even have enough money to keep up the trickle of shiny newness required to distract me from the ever-deepening despair that is my baseline emotion.


But I think I've got the trash talking part down solid.

There are people playing AOS with unpainted armies? Shouldn't they be playing Warmahordes? lol

Seriously though. I personally am someone who paints armies, but who's complete model collection is only half painted and growing... While I try to get stuff painted I do play with unpainted models.

Some people don't have time to paint, some people don't like doing it. Some people just like the game and have no interest in modeling. While I don't understand why someone wouldn't want to paint at least a simple scheme (as the appearance of your expensive hunk of plastic/metal/resin is greatly improved), each to their own I guess.

I think bare plastic looks much better than a very simple scheme. If my minis end up looking like Heroscape minis or worse, then I have ruined them.

War Kitten wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with it. Each person hobbies in their own way. Some people might not have time to paint, others may be bad painters and they don't want to make the attempt. The player may have only recently finished assembling the models and wanted to try them out. And yes. It would have been rude to suggest the guy spend time painting instead of playing, i know it would have irritated me.

I disagree....one player plays a game, the other participates in the hobby. The hobby consists of all things; modeling, collecting, painting, converting, playing etc. If someone just wants to play a game, I heard chess comes pre-painted.

Had a fun game of flames of war today. About half the stuff we used was unpainted or only primed / single colour undercloat the rest was painted or in the process of being painted. Each game in the club we tend to have worked a little more on our armies and having games to look forward to makes us eager to paint more. If we couldn't play until we painted we would likely lose interest before finishing a force.

 carlos13th wrote:
Had a fun game of flames of war today. About half the stuff we used was unpainted or only primed / single colour undercloat the rest was painted or in the process of being painted. Each game in the club we tend to have worked a little more on our armies and having games to look forward to makes us eager to paint more. If we couldn't play until we painted we would likely lose interest before finishing a force.

But see that is different, effort is being made...most are referring to "that guy" who still has the same primed black tau army he has been playing since Tau/Dar first hit the scene.

 quickfuze wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
Had a fun game of flames of war today. About half the stuff we used was unpainted or only primed / single colour undercloat the rest was painted or in the process of being painted. Each game in the club we tend to have worked a little more on our armies and having games to look forward to makes us eager to paint more. If we couldn't play until we painted we would likely lose interest before finishing a force.

But see that is different, effort is being made...most are referring to "that guy" who still has the same primed black tau army he has been playing since Tau/Dar first hit the scene.

Some people never play unpainted or have clubs that don't allow any unpainted models to be fielded at all. All those approaches are fine as long as the people involved agree.

As I have said elsewhere you are perfectly welcome to say to "that guy" you dont want to play against unpainted armies. However some people take that to far and say that "that guy" shouldn't be allowed to play with his unpainted army. The first approach is fine as you shouldn't have to play a game that isnt the kind of game you want to play however the second approach isn't fine as its an attempt to force your hobby desires upon another person. If someone doesn't care about painting let them not care, you don't have to play them and it doesn't make them lesser for not caring.

@quickfuse - I think of "the hobby" in the same way as you (everything from painting to building to converting to collecting to playing the game). On the other hand, not everyone does, and when I played in 40k public games, there were guys who would prime models black, hit them with silver with an airbrush from one direction and call it a day. To me, that's "almost unpainted" in that it offers me no eye candy or cool factor, which is the dominant reason that I play tabletop miniature games.

At the end of the day, the only way to play with like-minded hobbyists and gamers, IMO, is to find or build a group that likes the same thing as yourself. That's not being a paint snob and it's not an indictment of people who don't want to paint models, just a recognition that not everyone wants the same thing out of the hobby in equal proportions, and if playing with painted models is important to you (it is to me), the remedy isn't for me to enforce my standards onto others, but to be more selective about who I play with.

It's particularly important to me in my current situation, because with family obligations and the amount of time game nights suck up, I only play 2-3 nights a month, so I really want it to count!

 Talys wrote:
@quickfuse - I think of "the hobby" in the same way as you (everything from painting to building to converting to collecting to playing the game). On the other hand, not everyone does, and when I played in 40k public games, there were guys who would prime models black, hit them with silver with an airbrush from one direction and call it a day. To me, that's "almost unpainted" in that it offers me no eye candy or cool factor, which is the dominant reason that I play tabletop miniature games.

At the end of the day, the only way to play with like-minded hobbyists and gamers, IMO, is to find or build a group that likes the same thing as yourself. That's not being a paint snob and it's not an indictment of people who don't want to paint models, just a recognition that not everyone wants the same thing out of the hobby in equal proportions, and if playing with painted models is important to you (it is to me), the remedy isn't for me to enforce my standards onto others, but to be more selective about who I play with.

It's particularly important to me in my current situation, because with family obligations and the amount of time game nights suck up, I only play 2-3 nights a month, so I really want it to count!

I actually agree about the like minded gamers part, but I want to expound on the thought process a bit for some other posters. If you want to buy two armies of grey plastic and set them up across from each other and run back and forth from side to side playing both armies, then yes by all means the hobby is whatever you want it to be. However, in a pick up game, which is in essence a social contract between two people to play a game, painting your own army is as much for creating a rich, vivid, immersive experience for your opponent as it is for yourself. By saying "F-it, i don't like painting so I am not doing it" you are in essence saying that the only persons enjoyment from the game that matters is your own. Let's be honest, with the availability of cheap airbrushes, spray can paints, online tutorials, pre-selected color sets, pre-mixed washes etc; there really is no excuse for not having "3 color minimum" . Some will argue "well you don't HAVE to play them then", and I completely agree with that; but dont call me a snob or elitist if I choose not to because I don't like the fact that my opponent doesn't care enough about both sides having a complete experience and is only concerned with only what they value from the hobby.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:I think bare plastic looks much better than a very simple scheme. If my minis end up looking like Heroscape minis or worse, then I have ruined them.

Have an exalt, truth has been told.

quickfuze wrote:
I disagree....one player plays a game, the other participates in the hobby. The hobby consists of all things; modeling, collecting, painting, converting, playing etc. If someone just wants to play a game, I heard chess comes pre-painted.

Converting, huh? I know a lot of people who don't convert their minis for various reasons. Are they some worse kind of players that suddenly don't participate in the hobby and instead they "just" play the game? Your post couldn't have come out any more condescending. I don't paint because I don't want to rush stuff and have my miniatures painted on mediocre level - I prefer unpainted to painted badly, I really don't get why so many people can't grasp that simple thing. Look at Star Wars Miniatures Game or aforementioned Heroscape. Is it really that hard to grasp why some would rather have clean, neat, detailed grey plastic miniatures rather than atrocities like that? Or this? Now I'm not saying that anyone here would paint like that, but if I am not going to be content with my paintjob, I am not going to do it at all. I spend money and time buying, assembling and converting/kitbashing my miniatures and I am not going to half-ass the paintjob because I either lack skill or time to do it well enough for me to enjoy it (because I couldn't care less how my opponent does - I bet my christian friend wouldn't appreciate all the occult stuff I want to paint all over my Word Bearers CSM).

And none of my friends so far seem to be putting as much effort into kitbashing and converting their minis - some of them go as far as just assembling them and, dear God, painting them just before ONLY playing the game! How dare they! Maybe I don't like playing against unconverted miniatures? See the flaw in that logic? Some people here say stuff along the lines of "I spent time painting them, my opponent should do the same!" but what about conversions? If I spent time assembling, removing mould lines from and converting my models to make each truly unique am I not entitled to expect my friends to put as much work in converting their minis?

Wait, I will put the answer in a spoiler so some people can first get there themselves.


So... did you get the right answer? Does anyone have to try again? Feel free to.

Well, here we are! The end of this ranty post, sheesh, did I get upset! But yeah, noone has the right to tell others how they should be enjoying their hobby they spent their money on.

P.s. - I really didn't get angry, I just write like that, no anger here, maybe mild irritation that someone might be arrogant enough to act like he can decide what people should be doing with their toy soldiers.

 Klerych wrote:

BobtheInquisitor wrote:I think bare plastic looks much better than a very simple scheme. If my minis end up looking like Heroscape minis or worse, then I have ruined them.

Have an exalt, truth has been told.

quickfuze wrote:
I disagree....one player plays a game, the other participates in the hobby. The hobby consists of all things; modeling, collecting, painting, converting, playing etc. If someone just wants to play a game, I heard chess comes pre-painted.

Converting, huh? I know a lot of people who don't convert their minis for various reasons. Are they some worse kind of players that suddenly don't participate in the hobby and instead they "just" play the game? Your post couldn't have come out any more condescending. I don't paint because I don't want to rush stuff and have my miniatures painted on mediocre level - I prefer unpainted to painted badly, I really don't get why so many people can't grasp that simple thing. Look at Star Wars Miniatures Game or aforementioned Heroscape. Is it really that hard to grasp why some would rather have clean, neat, detailed grey plastic miniatures rather than atrocities like that? Or this? Now I'm not saying that anyone here would paint like that, but if I am not going to be content with my paintjob, I am not going to do it at all. I spend money and time buying, assembling and converting/kitbashing my miniatures and I am not going to half-ass the paintjob because I either lack skill or time to do it well enough for me to enjoy it (because I couldn't care less how my opponent does - I bet my christian friend wouldn't appreciate all the occult stuff I want to paint all over my Word Bearers CSM).

And none of my friends so far seem to be putting as much effort into kitbashing and converting their minis - some of them go as far as just assembling them and, dear God, painting them just before ONLY playing the game! How dare they! Maybe I don't like playing against unconverted miniatures? See the flaw in that logic? Some people here say stuff along the lines of "I spent time painting them, my opponent should do the same!" but what about conversions? If I spent time assembling, removing mould lines from and converting my models to make each truly unique am I not entitled to expect my friends to put as much work in converting their minis?

Wait, I will put the answer in a spoiler so some people can first get there themselves.

Spoiler:

NO. I have no right to expect anything from my opponent other than sportsmanship as playing against each other is the only aspect of the game both people share at the same time!

So... did you get the right answer? Does anyone have to try again? Feel free to.

Well, here we are! The end of this ranty post, sheesh, did I get upset! But yeah, noone has the right to tell others how they should be enjoying their hobby they spent their money on.

P.s. - I really didn't get angry, I just write like that, no anger here, maybe mild irritation that someone might be arrogant enough to act like he can decide what people should be doing with their toy soldiers.

Your rant actually made me laugh...thank you. Also thanks for completely missing the point. Of course not every model is going to be converted, in fact maybe none will be, that is but one aspect of many in the hobby. You took something that was an example of mind set and tried to make it into a literal translation. You have to assemble the models to play with them, so bare grey plastic is the start point (unless by your thinking you can just push the sprues around the table, and by your statements I wouldn't put it past you trying o argue that). So assembly is the start point, then yes absolutely you care only about one aspect of the hobby if that is where you stop, and as such only care about what you get out of the two player game. Your argument " but if I am not going to be content with my paint job, I am not going to do it at all" is strawman....very few people are born with innate natural talent and must practice to get better; as with most things in life (you'll never win the lottery if you never play). Again you were so busy ranting, that you failed to see in my follow-up post that yes I agree with you. I cannot tell anyone how to play with their little plastic men, but what I said was don't get uppity with me when I refuse because I do want to play in a more immersive, complete setting.

 quickfuze wrote:


Your rant actually made me laugh...thank you. Also thanks for completely missing the point. Of course not every model is going to be converted, in fact maybe none will be, that is but one aspect of many in the hobby. You took something that was an example of mind set and tried to make it into a literal translation. You have to assemble the models to play with them, so bare grey plastic is the start point (unless by your thinking you can just push the sprues around the table, and by your statements I wouldn't put it past you trying o argue that). So assembly is the start point, then yes absolutely you care only about one aspect of the hobby if that is where you stop, and as such only care about what you get out of the two player game. Your argument " but if I am not going to be content with my paint job, I am not going to do it at all" is strawman....very few people are born with innate natural talent and must practice to get better; as with most things in life (you'll never win the lottery if you never play). Again you were so busy ranting, that you failed to see in my follow-up post that yes I agree with you. I cannot tell anyone how to play with their little plastic men, but what I said was don't get uppity with me when I refuse because I do want to play in a more immersive, complete setting.

Actually I believe I haven't missed the point. I just overblew it to show how dubious it is. The way you said that the people who don't enjoy painting should go play chess because it comes pre-painted only served the purpose of trying to make people feel bad about not painting theirs and somehow making them worse kind of players. And so I used converting as an example.

I never said that I am outright bad, but tell you something - to paint decently a single infantry dude I need about four hours. That's the level I am going to accept. I lose my patience after 1 hour. Remaining three are torment. Not everyone has the patience for stuff like that, not everyone likes the same things as some, so between this and my limited free time I am always going to choose either buying new models and assembling them as I enjoy it more or playing the game. To learn how to paint faster and better I would have to spend more time than I can or want to devote to it, and even then, in the end, I am not going to enjoy it just like my mother never got to enjoy sculpting despite many tries. And guess what - she's not a worse artist and I am not a worse gamer just because I would rather spend my time enjoying different aspects of this hobby.

And yeah, I haven't seen your follow-up post because it popped up as I was typing mine, so I only saw it after refreshing the thread, obviously.