I'm going to start by saying that this thread isn't anything new. It's mainly just yet another person complaining about Necrons. But at the same time, I'm looking for tips.
Anyways, I played against Necrons for the first time today. And holy moly it was absolutely brutal. I actually conceded by the end of turn 2 because I was getting slaughtered. It was 1500 of my Dark Angels vs 1500 of my buddy's new Necrons. And I thought the option of having (and I was actually using) a 2+ rerollable jink was mean. But compared to Necrons... 2+ rerollable jink is laughable.
This game was one of the few cases where I legitimately questioned why I play 40k over other games like Warmachine. I mean losing is one thing. I've lost before (I actually lose a lot. Still fairly new after all and I face Tau often). But this was INSANE. This wasn't a game. This was a one sided slaughter! I mean my buddy didn't even use the Decurion Detachment. But with formations and what not he was getting 4+ invulns and 4+ resurrection (or whatever it's called) and I just couldn't kill a damn thing.
Enough of my complaining, though. I don't want to go "Welp, with Necrons around, I'm never going to play." and I don't want to refuse to battle my buddy. I mean he bought the models after all! I want to face them and have a decent match. Win or lose, I really don't mind. As long as it isn't a one sided slaughter. So what tips would one offer to someone when up against necrons? Or even better; what tips would one offer to someone who plays Dark Angels and Harlequins when up against necrons?
If you play Harlequins, I might point you in this direction. I haven't had troubles using this kind of list against Necrons yet. Plus, the guy who writes the series is as witty as he is insightful, and amazingly handsome to boot!
Honestly I've yet to find a good answer to necron beyond "accept that you won't kill much, and focus fire to kill the things that are the biggest problem"
Try to brake his mobility and out-manuver him, and/or use assault-as necrons are rather bad there except a few dedicated assault units.
PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
This was a one sided slaughter! I mean my buddy didn't even use the Decurion Detachment. But with formations and what not he was getting 4+ invulns and 4+ resurrection (or whatever it's called) and I just couldn't kill a damn thing.
The ressurection is called Reanimation protocols and I'll be referring to it as RP.
A decurion detachment is detachment where you take a certain type/amount of formations together and get an added benefit for that (army-wide +1 to RP, up to a 4+).
If he was using loose formations, he was technically not using a Decurion, but he actually kind of is.
Apart from a +1 to RP rolls (giving the entire army a 4+ RP at most), there is no difference between a Necron Decurion and a Necron army that consists entirely out of formations.
If he was, for example, using the "Royal court" to bring Crypteks and use them to give 4+ to everything anyway, there really was no difference between what he used and a Decurion.
But compared to Necrons... 2+ rerollable jink is laughable.
Then you're seriously doing something wrong. Necrons with a 4+ armor/invul and 4+ RP have a 75% chance at saving a wound. Necrons with a 3+ armor and 4+ RP have a 83.33% chance of saving a wound.
a 2+ re-rollable cover save has 97.22% chance of saving a wound. Necrons don't have any ignores cover apart from Tomb blades and a C'tan shard of the Deceiver.
To put that into theoretical perspective:
You need to get 2 wounds/glances on something with a 4+ re-rollable to get a wound through. 3 in case of a 3+ armor/invul and 4+ RP.
You need to get 18 wounds/glances on something with a 2+ re-rollable to get a wound through.
So really, as long as your darkshrouds are alive and everything has a 2+ re-rollable, you should be solid against any shooting attack.
But with formations and what not he was getting 4+ invulns and 4+ resurrection (or whatever it's called) and I just couldn't kill a damn thing.
It is impossible to give 4+ invul saves to entire units (apart from HQ's). The only item that gives invul saves to entire units is the Chronometron that Crypteks have, but it gives a 5+ invul.
My suggestions:
- Play Maelstrom of War missions.
You're not likely going to win if you play "whoever kills the most wins", not against necrons. Because Necrons play the staying game. You're playing Dark angels and you're talking about Jink saves. That probably means you've got a lot of bikes. That gives you an advantage when playing Maelstrom missions.
- If your buddy really doesn't want to use the "Decurion", but still wants to play with the same models, I suggest he plays it as an unbound army. Same models, just no formation benefits.
- Make sure you're playing everything according to the rules. If he's giving entire units 4+ invul saves, he's playing his army wrong.
You need to hit them at points where they're weak. So basically you want a toolbox army, rather than a shooty one.
- Try and deny their layered saves by using weapons with AP 3 and 4.
- Try and double out their T to reduce the RP modifier.
- Try and kill their transports ASAP to kill their mobility
- They have no Psykers and are vulnerable in the Psychic Phase.
- They have low Init; tests like Blind and Sweeping Advances will hurt.
- The army is LD10 but it's not Fearless or ATSKNF.
- They have lots of units which can't produce much damage in CC.
There are a lot of ways to accomplish this in the DA codex. Definitely check out Interromancy -- there is some huge potential there.
But compared to Necrons... 2+ rerollable jink is laughable.
Then you're seriously doing something wrong. Necrons with a 4+ armor/invul and 4+ RP have a 75% chance at saving a wound. Necrons with a 3+ armor and 4+ RP have a 83.33% chance of saving a wound.
a 2+ re-rollable cover save has 97.22% chance of saving a wound. Necrons don't have any ignores cover apart from Tomb blades and a C'tan shard of the Deceiver.
To put that into theoretical perspective:
You need to get 2 wounds/glances on something with a 4+ re-rollable to get a wound through. 3 in case of a 3+ armor/invul and 4+ RP.
You need to get 18 wounds/glances on something with a 2+ re-rollable to get a wound through.
So really, as long as your darkshrouds are alive and everything has a 2+ re-rollable, you should be solid against any shooting attack.
But with formations and what not he was getting 4+ invulns and 4+ resurrection (or whatever it's called) and I just couldn't kill a damn thing.
What you might have missed, that the 2+ rerollable cover unit costs more than twice the warrior.
So yes, the warrior will not absorve as much damage per shot, but will absorve much more per POINT
What works for me is to shift the other way along the Firepower <-> Firevolume slider. Less power, more volume. Make them roll more dice. Heavy Bolters are effective, although assault cannons are probably even better.
As long as your shooting is S4 or better - preferably S5 - and you put enough shots downrange, you should find yourself having more luck.
Necrons generally have a high Ld, and a low I. If you get access to Eldar Monofiliment weapons, they
They only regenerate when there is a model left standing, so target a unit at a time. Keep on that unit until it is done. Most units seem to get their bonuses from the attached Lord-like boss. Snipe him, and the RP rolls get worse.
For the vehicles, throw everything high-S at them, to take the shield down, then it's easier to kill. CC seems best, but I never got that close.
Keep your squishies out of Tesla range. Gauss hurts anything. Most Necron weapons seem to be 24".
Confirm all of this, as I've only played against them a couple of times.
Skinnereal wrote: They only regenerate when there is a model left standing, so target a unit at a time. Keep on that unit until it is done. Most units seem to get their bonuses from the attached Lord-like boss. Snipe him, and the RP rolls get worse.
This is my general go-to for Necrons. Focus every shot on a single unit unit it's all down, then it can't get back up, unless there's a Lord with a Resurrection Orb.
Skinnereal wrote: They only regenerate when there is a model left standing, so target a unit at a time. Keep on that unit until it is done. Most units seem to get their bonuses from the attached Lord-like boss. Snipe him, and the RP rolls get worse.
This isn't true anymore - in the newest Necron codex, Reanimation Protocols are treated the same as Feel No Pain rolls.
Skinnereal wrote: They only regenerate when there is a model left standing, so target a unit at a time. Keep on that unit until it is done. Most units seem to get their bonuses from the attached Lord-like boss. Snipe him, and the RP rolls get worse.
This isn't true anymore - in the newest Necron codex, Reanimation Protocols are treated the same as Feel No Pain rolls.
Whaaat oh that is so lame. And here I was wondering why everyone was so upset about the Decurion RP bonus.
They only regenerate when there is a model left standing, so target a unit at a time. Keep on that unit until it is done. Most units seem to get their bonuses from the attached Lord-like boss. Snipe him, and the RP rolls get worse.
Yeah, no. RP is always taken now. Doesn't matter how many are in the unit, it's FNP on steroids. Also, a Lord being in a unit matters not anymore, as he doesn't give them any bonuses.
I'm going to start by saying that this thread isn't anything new. It's mainly just yet another person complaining about Necrons. But at the same time, I'm looking for tips.
Anyways, I played against Necrons for the first time today. And holy moly it was absolutely brutal. I actually conceded by the end of turn 2 because I was getting slaughtered. It was 1500 of my Dark Angels vs 1500 of my buddy's new Necrons. And I thought the option of having (and I was actually using) a 2+ rerollable jink was mean. But compared to Necrons... 2+ rerollable jink is laughable.
This game was one of the few cases where I legitimately questioned why I play 40k over other games like Warmachine. I mean losing is one thing. I've lost before (I actually lose a lot. Still fairly new after all and I face Tau often). But this was INSANE. This wasn't a game. This was a one sided slaughter! I mean my buddy didn't even use the Decurion Detachment. But with formations and what not he was getting 4+ invulns and 4+ resurrection (or whatever it's called) and I just couldn't kill a damn thing.
Enough of my complaining, though. I don't want to go "Welp, with Necrons around, I'm never going to play." and I don't want to refuse to battle my buddy. I mean he bought the models after all! I want to face them and have a decent match. Win or lose, I really don't mind. As long as it isn't a one sided slaughter. So what tips would one offer to someone when up against necrons? Or even better; what tips would one offer to someone who plays Dark Angels and Harlequins when up against necrons?
Most people's first response to Necrons are like this. You'll soon realize that they are not the worst part in 40k, either. Eldar, Admech, and Skyhammer/Gladius marines all make you question your choice in gaming. That being said, Necrons lack mobility, and a lot of their units are vulnerable to CC (if you get luck and kill any). So, play to objectives, tarpit things to reduce their shooting, heck, use Terminators or anything with a 2+ save. Necrons lack AP2 en masse as well.
As a Necron player I'm always surprised at how players don't play to the super high weaknesses of necrons and that's being swept in combat. Even CC units like lychguard lack fearless outside of Zhandrekh and can be swept quite easily. Play to this advantage. If you just stand and try to trade fire with them Ya, you're going to be frustrated as that's their strength. However, if you get up close and personal that vaunted durability will seek trivial.
buddha wrote: As a Necron player I'm always surprised at how players don't play to the super high weaknesses of necrons and that's being swept in combat. Even CC units like lychguard lack fearless outside of Zhandrekh and can be swept quite easily. Play to this advantage. If you just stand and try to trade fire with them Ya, you're going to be frustrated as that's their strength. However, if you get up close and personal that vaunted durability will seek trivial.
This is good advice, as most Necrons units are just begging to be swept in CC. You still run into the problem of Canoptek Wraiths, though. Those dudes never just roll over, and now with T5 and access to RP they're that much stronger than last edition.
I sympathize with the OP. I've only had one or maybe two games since the new Codex where I didn't win in one-sided fashion, and I haven't lost with them yet (and I play against good players who give as good as they take for the most part). My Necrons are now basically shelved unless someone tells me they want to play against them.
Necrons are seen as ridiculous in 40k because 40k before this didn't have a true "durability skew" or "control" style army prior to the newcron Dex.
The key to playing against durability skew is to ALWAYS CONSIDER YOUR ODDS of killing anything. Because often, you have a choice between trying to kill something, and not while gaining some safety. Against a normal 40k list it is almost always the better option to try to damage/kill.
Always identify the things you can impede and kill them the best you can. Things that are really hurt by Jinking - destroyers, tomb blades, doomsday arcs - make those Jink. THEN STOP SHOOTING THEM.
Many Necron lists will feature a Deathstar of Lychguard with numerous characters. That? Straiht up ignore it. Avoid it, force it to charge piddly little units, whatever you need to do.
Once you start learning to answer the question "should I leave cover to get that 12" double tap instead of 24" single tap?" With "nope. Playing necrons, that's only gonna net me .2 more wounds, I'll stay back and be more durable" then you'll start doing better against crons.
You won't have more fun, but you're never hon a have fun vs crons.
buddha wrote: As a Necron player I'm always surprised at how players don't play to the super high weaknesses of necrons and that's being swept in combat. Even CC units like lychguard lack fearless outside of Zhandrekh and can be swept quite easily. Play to this advantage. If you just stand and try to trade fire with them Ya, you're going to be frustrated as that's their strength. However, if you get up close and personal that vaunted durability will seek trivial.
That's good advice and makes a lot of sense, though I can't say it has actually worked out for me since the new book came out. unless your close combat unit can ignore armor saves, most necron units will ignore the majority of the wounds you throw at them. So if you throw, say, a tac marine at them in close combat, the tacs will drag down maybe a single cron, and then they're actually more vulnerable to the 'crons return attacks. Even things like striking scorpions that are good at melee but not great at ignoring armor won't do so great in that fight. Combined with the high leadership of 'cron units, chances are good that they won't get swept anyway.
This is one of the biggest differences/frustrations the changes to RP have made. With the 5th edition book, you could punch a few 'crons to death, take fewer return attacks as a result, and have a good chance of sweeping the 'crons. Now the 'crons are likely to be hitting you back at almost full strength because RP is immediate. 5th edition RP was interesting because you could focus fire and count on sweeps to get around it. It changed how you played, which was interesting. Currently, the RP rules are less interactive. They provide fewer meaningful choices than before which has the consequence of making 'crons feel unkillable some games. ;_;
That said, melee is, in fact, a good way to go. If nothing else, it keeps those gauss and tesla weapons from actually shooting, and dedicated assault units with the right weaponry can do pretty well.
Although anecdotally, I've watched terminators and thunderwolves lose in melee to warriors since the new book happened. >_>
Yeah, except that Necron warriors almost always win in cc against most units that try to win by sweeping. Watching squads of ork boyz kill exactly one cron is always a fun and engaging experience.
The key strategies you need to defeat necrons are:
Ap 1-4 weapons to ignore at least one save
Instant death/ high strength weapons to reduce the reanimation protocol save
Necrons have key units that are weak, i.e. Spyders and Canoptek Walkers, take those out first
Ignore the deathstars, especially if they are on foot. They are meant to survive, wait till everything else is dead.
Try and sweep them in combat.
This is of course assuming all Orks reach the fight even after Overwatch and have suffered no casualties on the way there, a rare occurence.
Well, my opponents employ certain strategies that are pretty good at getting big blobs of Ork Boys into combat largely unmolested. No causualties is rare, but few casualties is pretty common IME
The Necrons lose the melee by 3, which means LD7, which means that they are slightly more likely to stay than to run, and if they do run they have equal initiative so the Orks are slightly more likely to catch them.
So the Necrons have about a 75% chance to weather the initial assault. Without charge bonuses, the remaining 26 Orks only have 78 attacks that wound on a 5+, resulting in 3 Necrons dead. Meanwhile, the remaining 13 Necrons inflict slightly more than 3 dead Orks, meaning that the Necrons actually have a higher chance to win the second round of combat...
Most people's first response to Necrons are like this. You'll soon realize that they are not the worst part in 40k, either. Eldar, Admech, and Skyhammer/Gladius marines all make you question your choice in gaming. That being said, Necrons lack mobility, and a lot of their units are vulnerable to CC (if you get luck and kill any). So, play to objectives, tarpit things to reduce their shooting, heck, use Terminators or anything with a 2+ save. Necrons lack AP2 en masse as well.
1. Necrons lacking mobility is a myth. I don't know WHY people keep saying this and repeating it as if it were true. They're one of the most mobile armies, if anything.
2. Tarpitting only works if you reach there to tarpit them, and once again saying that Necrons lack mobility is a myth.
3. Terminators are bad. The 2+ is overrated when you have weight of firepower. Hell, Destroyers in the Cult will consistently kill one Terminator per round of shooting whereas Terminators will kill less than half a Destroyer in shooting. Plus JSJ. Nobody is scared of the 2+. That's how bad the power creep is.
Most people's first response to Necrons are like this. You'll soon realize that they are not the worst part in 40k, either. Eldar, Admech, and Skyhammer/Gladius marines all make you question your choice in gaming. That being said, Necrons lack mobility, and a lot of their units are vulnerable to CC (if you get luck and kill any). So, play to objectives, tarpit things to reduce their shooting, heck, use Terminators or anything with a 2+ save. Necrons lack AP2 en masse as well.
1. Necrons lacking mobility is a myth. I don't know WHY people keep saying this and repeating it as if it were true. They're one of the most mobile armies, if anything.
2. Tarpitting only works if you reach there to tarpit them, and once again saying that Necrons lack mobility is a myth.
3. Terminators are bad. The 2+ is overrated when you have weight of firepower. Hell, Destroyers in the Cult will consistently kill one Terminator per round of shooting whereas Terminators will kill less than half a Destroyer in shooting. Plus JSJ. Nobody is scared of the 2+. That's how bad the power creep is.
Necrons have mobility, yes, if you build your list to do it. My generic Decurions have Tomb Blades and maybe a Night Scythe or two occasionally, and that's it. You're standard TAC list doesn't have that much mobility besides Tomb Blades and probably Wraiths because that's all anyone knows how to play.
Most people's first response to Necrons are like this. You'll soon realize that they are not the worst part in 40k, either. Eldar, Admech, and Skyhammer/Gladius marines all make you question your choice in gaming. That being said, Necrons lack mobility, and a lot of their units are vulnerable to CC (if you get luck and kill any). So, play to objectives, tarpit things to reduce their shooting, heck, use Terminators or anything with a 2+ save. Necrons lack AP2 en masse as well.
1. Necrons lacking mobility is a myth. I don't know WHY people keep saying this and repeating it as if it were true. They're one of the most mobile armies, if anything.
2. Tarpitting only works if you reach there to tarpit them, and once again saying that Necrons lack mobility is a myth.
3. Terminators are bad. The 2+ is overrated when you have weight of firepower. Hell, Destroyers in the Cult will consistently kill one Terminator per round of shooting whereas Terminators will kill less than half a Destroyer in shooting. Plus JSJ. Nobody is scared of the 2+. That's how bad the power creep is.
Necrons have mobility, yes, if you build your list to do it. My generic Decurions have Tomb Blades and maybe a Night Scythe or two occasionally, and that's it. You're standard TAC list doesn't have that much mobility besides Tomb Blades and probably Wraiths because that's all anyone knows how to play.
Can you build a Necron list without any mobility? Sure. But as a whole "Mobility" is not anywhere near close to a "Weakness" for the Necron army. They are INCREDIBLY mobile. You don't even have to try very hard to have an incredibly mobile list. Options for mobility are EVERYWHERE.
Take some Wraiths or Scarabs. Boom, you have one of the most mobile assault units in the game.
Take a Night Scythe dedicated transport. Boom, your troops can magically beam just about anywhere on the board you want them to go.
Take some Tomb Blades. Boom, you have one of the best jetbikes in the game.
Take some Death Marks. Boom, you have a great deepstriking unit that you can use to respond to enemy movement.
Take some Flayed Ones. Boom, you have an incredible melee unit that you can use to Infiltrate OR deep strike with.
Take the Standard Reclamation League. Boom all your Warriors, Immortals, and Tomb Blades have Move Through Cover.
There's even more options than that. Necrons give ELDAR a run for their money in terms of having options for mobility. They're one of the fastest armies in the game!
When you get right down to it, Necrons have no major weaknesses, all their Infantry are undercosted, and their formation bonuses are too strong. That's basically what's wrong with the codex.
Adding the Decurion and Formation bonuses to them throws gasoline on that fire. Your basic Necron Warrior should be about 15 points. Add Decurion and Reclamation League bonuses to that Warrior and you're looking at a 17-18 point model for only 13 points. That same problem is true for just about every Necron Infantry unit in the codex. Immortals with Decurion should cost around 5 points more than they do. Wraiths should cost about 10 points more. Flayed Ones should be 3-4 points more expensive than they are.
Once you get done adding in all the under-costed Necron infantry in a typical Necron list, you're looking at a significant disadvantage for the opponent.
Necron Vehicles are actually pretty well priced. But a smart Necron player brings very very few of them because their Infantry gets just so much more bang for the buck.
With Dark Angels and Harlies you are at the loosing end when facing stronger armies like Necrons.
You should play for the objectives. This will give you a chance.
There's even more options than that. Necrons give ELDAR a run for their money in terms of having options for mobility. They're one of the fastest armies in the game!
When you get right down to it, Necrons have no major weaknesses, all their Infantry are undercosted, and their formation bonuses are too strong. That's basically what's wrong with the codex.
Adding the Decurion and Formation bonuses to them throws gasoline on that fire. Your basic Necron Warrior should be about 15 points. Add Decurion and Reclamation League bonuses to that Warrior and you're looking at a 17-18 point model for only 13 points. That same problem is true for just about every Necron Infantry unit in the codex. Immortals with Decurion should cost around 5 points more than they do. Wraiths should cost about 10 points more. Flayed Ones should be 3-4 points more expensive than they are.
1. That's a bit of an exaggeration. Tau have more easily obtainable mobility. Dark Eldar and Harlequins are also faster. Wraiths and Scarabs are Beasts, so by that logic, Daemons/Khorne Daemonkin have the same mobility. Flayed Ones? So, Tyranids have the same mobility, because Genestealers and Lictors and Mawlocs. Necrons aren't that fast. Other armies can do the same things for the most part, bar Monoliths and Night Scythes.
2. Init 2. Very little Fearless. Sweeping Advance and Blind come to mind as weaknesses. Also high armor save MCs. Again, Necrons lack spammable S6 and/or AP2 weaponry.
3. So is a Space Marines undercosted? Sure, no RP, but better armor save than a warrior, assault grenades, krak grenades, Bolt pistol, And They Shall Know No Fear, access to special/heavy weapons, and Chapter Tactics? All for 14 points. Yes, Necron Warriors with their 1 special rule is too cheap. And on that note, they have Drop Pods. Boom, better mobility.
I'm assuming you've just had some bad luck against Necrons or something, because they're really not that bad anymore compared to what's in the game now. War Convocation, Skyhammer, Gladius, Wraithhost, ext. All of these formations are just as stupid as the Decurion.
Our warriors have 2 special rules tbf - you're forgetting gauss.
Warriors aren't too cheap (well maybe by a point), but decurion makes them go from a 33% chance at passing an RP roll to a 58.3% chance (if in 12" of the warlord). That's a 75% increase in durability (59.3/33.3 -1).
And since you can't really get rid of RP there is no way around it, apart from reducing it by 1, in which case necrons without bonus RP drop to a 17% chance of passing whilst Decurion Necrons drop to a 39% chance of passing, so against ID attacks, Decurion Necrons are 129% more durable than CAD Necrons.
It's Decurion that's the issue, not Necrons in general.
If 3 units of X are balanced at point cost Y, but the same 3 units get a little bonus of something in a formation, they are by definition no longer balanced.
Formations that don't cost points by themselves are inherently a "free bonus" that cannot be balanced compared to the identical unit selection without the formation bonus.
Makes formations, in theory, a neat cheat to get underused units back to the table, but that's not how GW is using them it seems.
If 3 units of X are balanced at point cost Y, but the same 3 units get a little bonus of something in a formation, they are by definition no longer balanced.
Formations that don't cost points by themselves are inherently a "free bonus" that cannot be balanced compared to the identical unit selection without the formation bonus.
Makes formations, in theory, a neat cheat to get underused units back to the table, but that's not how GW is using them it seems.
That's definitely true to a large extent. The disadvantage of formations is having to take units you don't want, not as much an issue with Decurion as say with a Gladius but that disadvantage is usually nowhere near enough to balance the advantages. Worst offender in my eyes is the Ad Mech War Convocation.
The older formations out there were decent because it gave advantage to units that were overcosted, thinking along the lines of Helbrutes, Cyphers Chosen, Stormwing (that ones debatable), most of the BA and Nid formations from Shield of Baal etc.
But with the new formations - yeh, what you say is definitely the case.
The thing about Necron mobility is that they can walk straight to any objective and never have to worry about the repercussions of getting caught out in the open. Almost any other army that tries that would be shot off the board, something the Necrons never have to worry about. Warriors might take 2 or 3 turns to get there, but they will, reliably and quicker than any other infantry.
Basically, you want them back at third edition prices, where they were tougher (warriors had 3+) and overcosted at the price?
I don't think a Necron Warrior would be overcosted at 15 points. If you add in the Decurion bonus I don't think a Necron Warrior would be overcosted at 17 points. I think they'd be pretty balanced at that price.
Certain models, like Wraiths, are off by a much larger margin than a point or two.
Playing against crons means you have to accept a different approach to winning.
its a different game.
If you get unlucky and get kill points though. go for the vehicles then run away and pick at a unit one at a time.
but really mathematically a 2++ rerollable jink is much better than effectively a 4+ rerollable. (IIRC assuming people are playing the no better than 4+ res) the only caveat is that its localized and ignore cover feths it.
I appreciate all the responses and tips. Before I address anything else I must address this; we're starting to derail about. I started this thread by complaining about Necrons, yes. But there's nothing I can do about their power. I can't make them weaker and complaining about points cost and what not won't fix anything. What will at least help is learning how to fight them and that was my intention when starting this thread. As I said, I don't expect my friend to shelf his Necrons for my sake. I expect to learn how to counter them better for both of our sakes.
Anyways, I'll start by posting my list, I'm now convinced there's plenty of things that can be changed to make it more viable against necrons (would also like to note that I made it last second because it was a last second game, so please be merciful):
HQs:
Librarian
- bike
- lvl 2
- force stave
- warlord
Librarian
- level 1
- force axe
Elites:
Dreadnought
- Multi melta
- powerfist
- heavy flamer
- drop pod with deathwind launcher
Fast Attack:
Black Knights x6
- grenade launcher x2
Darkshroud
- heavy bolter
Land Speeder
- Multi melta x2
Heavy Support:
Predator
- Lascannon sponsons
- autocannon
Also wanted to mention that the list was really made as a TAC list so it wasn't exactly decked out for Necrons.
I'm not too familiar with the list I fought against since I'm very unfamiliar with necrons. But I know he used that royal court formation or whatever it's called. He also had 3 wraiths (wrecked my bikes), 2 or 3 units of immortals, 1 unit of warriors, 1 units of lychguard, a command barge and possibly some other things but I think that's it. Perhaps someone knows off hand what formations or detachments he used by what I've listed? I'll definitely pay more attention to his list next time.
Lastly I wanted to give a shoutout to Jimsolo. Reading over your thread now, Jim. It's VERY interesting and I might just give it a whirl.
If 3 units of X are balanced at point cost Y, but the same 3 units get a little bonus of something in a formation, they are by definition no longer balanced.
Formations that don't cost points by themselves are inherently a "free bonus" that cannot be balanced compared to the identical unit selection without the formation bonus.
Makes formations, in theory, a neat cheat to get underused units back to the table, but that's not how GW is using them it seems.
That's definitely true to a large extent. The disadvantage of formations is having to take units you don't want, not as much an issue with Decurion as say with a Gladius but that disadvantage is usually nowhere near enough to balance the advantages. Worst offender in my eyes is the Ad Mech War Convocation.
The older formations out there were decent because it gave advantage to units that were overcosted, thinking along the lines of Helbrutes, Cyphers Chosen, Stormwing (that ones debatable), most of the BA and Nid formations from Shield of Baal etc.
But with the new formations - yeh, what you say is definitely the case.
True. But "overcosted" units is a balance problem in itself. So using formations as a fix, while something I'd hope they do more often, is sorta admitting the problem. It's a roundabout way to add "more something" to a unit that isn't worth it without that formation.
Assuming, in an unattainable ideal, that all units are perfectly balanced, there'd be no unwanted or "tax" units in the first place.
Ok necrons have short range, with very few exceptions they have a range of 24". With proper deployment you can have an unanswered turn of shooting.
They don't have many units that are good at taking down monstrous creatures, gauss can wound on a six and the MQ will always get their armor save.
They rely on a few specific units for dealing with SME (destroyers mostly), so if you are running DA you can safely ignore ranged units that aren't destroyers.
Of the commonly used units, Only lych guard and characters have power weapons in melee, the only other threats to SEQ are wraiths who have rending, and spyders/C'Tan who are monstrous creatures. Most other necron units use the rocky balboa school of winning melee combat, and let you hit them in face until you get tired.
In terms of toughness per point, warriors are insane. In a decurion, with in 12" of the overlord, against bolter fire they are just shy of being the equivalent to a 2+ armor save. Bring lots of AP 4 or don't bother shooting at them, there will almost always be something more worthwhile to shoot at.
Necron vehicles aren't particularly tough, They are almost all open topped, and one pen away from from being slow DE raiders. The exception is the monolith, which is a las cannon/melta magnet because they don't make terrain big enough to hide it.
I appreciate all the responses and tips. Before I address anything else I must address this; we're starting to derail about. I started this thread by complaining about Necrons, yes. But there's nothing I can do about their power. I can't make them weaker and complaining about points cost and what not won't fix anything. What will at least help is learning how to fight them and that was my intention when starting this thread. As I said, I don't expect my friend to shelf his Necrons for my sake. I expect to learn how to counter them better for both of our sakes.
Anyways, I'll start by posting my list, I'm now convinced there's plenty of things that can be changed to make it more viable against necrons (would also like to note that I made it last second because it was a last second game, so please be merciful):
Spoiler:
HQs:
Librarian
- bike
- lvl 2
- force stave
- warlord
Librarian
- level 1
- force axe
Elites:
Dreadnought
- Multi melta
- powerfist
- heavy flamer
- drop pod with deathwind launcher
Fast Attack:
Black Knights x6
- grenade launcher x2
Darkshroud
- heavy bolter
Land Speeder
- Multi melta x2
Heavy Support:
Predator
- Lascannon sponsons
- autocannon
Also wanted to mention that the list was really made as a TAC list so it wasn't exactly decked out for Necrons.
I'm not too familiar with the list I fought against since I'm very unfamiliar with necrons. But I know he used that royal court formation or whatever it's called. He also had 3 wraiths (wrecked my bikes), 2 or 3 units of immortals, 1 unit of warriors, 1 units of lychguard, a command barge and possibly some other things but I think that's it. Perhaps someone knows off hand what formations or detachments he used by what I've listed? I'll definitely pay more attention to his list next time.
Lastly I wanted to give a shoutout to Jimsolo. Reading over your thread now, Jim. It's VERY interesting and I might just give it a whirl.
Well if you are trying to not tailor then there is not much to be changed.
Id probably start with tactics.
Royal court do all sorts of things
The wraiths are dumb strong and hard to kill. dont really expect to kill them. they are susceptible to having the spider killed to get rid of there res. Otherwise lots of ST10 or force attacks can possible down them. casting enfeeble on them is a great help.
Immortals and warriors are bog standard infantry. one with heavier weapons and stuff.
Lychguard are (IIRC) Strong melee units with ap2 IIRC so try and shoot them out. invisibility or storm shield them.
The barge is a pain in the ass though i might be projecting from the sillyness that was there last codex.
PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote: I'm not too familiar with the list I fought against since I'm very unfamiliar with Necrons.
That's your issue Paul, it's important to understand the Necron units and formations as they have very specific counters.
Either way, you have:
- S10 attacks that can kill Wraiths and AV12 which Immortals/Warriors can't touch in CC (Dreadnought)
- Many debuffs and enablers with 3x Psyker MLs and Interromancy (2x Librarians)
- Fast and survivable Hit and Run units which can control the battlefield (Ravenwing bikes w/Darkshroud)
- AP2 shooting to fend of CC beasts like Lychguard (your Plasma Tac Squad)
- Some anti-armor to focus down Transports (Pred + Speeder)
If you liked JimSolo's link, you are capable of your own Leadership warfare using Seed of Fear and the Darkshroud. Worth exploring IMO.
Again, predictable because of the ease of getting the DV models, and whilst the Black Knights should really have your plasma needs covered, flamers and grav aren't much of a draw against 'Crons. Melta would be a possibility (helps against Quantum Shielding), but then I'd be putting them in pods rather than rhinos/razors and you'd run the risk of splitting your forces. Presuming the plasma cannon gets combat-squadded to hold backfield?
Again, a very solid unit, but I'm not sure about the number of grenade launchers - I generally only have one per unit, but hopefully some other people will chime in as I've not had many games with mine.
The idea that Necrons are easy to sweep is completely outdated. Certain high end dedicated assault units can do it with luck on their side, but immediate reanimation made it a ton harder for mine to be shifted, and for multiple reasons.
changemod wrote: The idea that Necrons are easy to sweep is completely outdated. Certain high end dedicated assault units can do it with luck on their side, but immediate reanimation made it a ton harder for mine to be shifted, and for multiple reasons.
On top of that LD10 will basically require you to kill 4 more than your enemy before you have a 50ish % chance to making them fail.
Its not good.
Also the though about dreads in CC with warrior types is bad because "Our weapons are useless" rule (unless that was removed)
Desubot wrote: On top of that LD10 will basically require you to kill 4 more than your enemy before you have a 50ish % chance to making them fail.
Also the thought about dreads in CC with warrior types is bad because "Our weapons are useless" rule (unless that was removed)
With "Seed of Fear" (Interromancy power) Necrons will take checks (Fear, Pinning, Morale) on 3D6.
Also, Warriors might fall back but the Dreadnought is at no risk during CC itself. I think you can still test for Sweeping Advance off "Our Weapons are Useless'? If so, that's a risky move at I2 and even if regrouped you'll be rolling Snapshots on the next turn.
Desubot wrote: On top of that LD10 will basically require you to kill 4 more than your enemy before you have a 50ish % chance to making them fail.
Also the thought about dreads in CC with warrior types is bad because "Our weapons are useless" rule (unless that was removed)
With "Seed of Fear" (Interromancy power) Necrons will take checks (Fear, Pinning, Morale) on 3D6.
Also, Warriors might fall back but the Dreadnought is at no risk during CC itself. I think you can still test for Sweeping Advance off "Our Weapons are Useless'? If so, that's a risky move at I2 and even if regrouped you'll be rolling Snapshots on the next turn.
I was making a generalization on on the LD thing.
Also forgot that you can get sweeper during our weapons. so that might not be a bad idea.
I'm going to start by saying that this thread isn't anything new. It's mainly just yet another person complaining about Necrons. But at the same time, I'm looking for tips.
Anyways, I played against Necrons for the first time today. And holy moly it was absolutely brutal. I actually conceded by the end of turn 2 because I was getting slaughtered. It was 1500 of my Dark Angels vs 1500 of my buddy's new Necrons. And I thought the option of having (and I was actually using) a 2+ rerollable jink was mean. But compared to Necrons... 2+ rerollable jink is laughable.
This game was one of the few cases where I legitimately questioned why I play 40k over other games like Warmachine. I mean losing is one thing. I've lost before (I actually lose a lot. Still fairly new after all and I face Tau often). But this was INSANE. This wasn't a game. This was a one sided slaughter! I mean my buddy didn't even use the Decurion Detachment. But with formations and what not he was getting 4+ invulns and 4+ resurrection (or whatever it's called) and I just couldn't kill a damn thing.
Enough of my complaining, though. I don't want to go "Welp, with Necrons around, I'm never going to play." and I don't want to refuse to battle my buddy. I mean he bought the models after all! I want to face them and have a decent match. Win or lose, I really don't mind. As long as it isn't a one sided slaughter. So what tips would one offer to someone when up against necrons? Or even better; what tips would one offer to someone who plays Dark Angels and Harlequins when up against necrons?
Welcome to Necrons.
There have been many suggestions in this thread, many of them correct, the problem being that pulling them off in practice and/or generating the sheer volume of fire (e.g. heavy bolters and such) needed to do the job often is simply not practicable. I haven't personally seen Necrons lose a game with the current book to anyone but Eldar, Admech, FMC spam tyranids, and the new SM codex yet, and the book's been out for IIRC 8 months now.
Most people's first response to Necrons are like this. You'll soon realize that they are not the worst part in 40k, either. Eldar, Admech, and Skyhammer/Gladius marines all make you question your choice in gaming. That being said, Necrons lack mobility, and a lot of their units are vulnerable to CC (if you get luck and kill any). So, play to objectives, tarpit things to reduce their shooting, heck, use Terminators or anything with a 2+ save. Necrons lack AP2 en masse as well.
1. Necrons lacking mobility is a myth. I don't know WHY people keep saying this and repeating it as if it were true. They're one of the most mobile armies, if anything.
2. Tarpitting only works if you reach there to tarpit them, and once again saying that Necrons lack mobility is a myth.
3. Terminators are bad. The 2+ is overrated when you have weight of firepower. Hell, Destroyers in the Cult will consistently kill one Terminator per round of shooting whereas Terminators will kill less than half a Destroyer in shooting. Plus JSJ. Nobody is scared of the 2+. That's how bad the power creep is.
Necrons have mobility, yes, if you build your list to do it. My generic Decurions have Tomb Blades and maybe a Night Scythe or two occasionally, and that's it
That's plenty enough to push a flank or center, particularly if coupled with Wraiths, and even non-fast Ghost Arks can get Warriors to the opponent's table edge by turn 2 (12" deployment zone, 12" move, 6" flat out, 6" move turn 2, 6" disembark, and up to a 6" run or potential 2d6" assault if needed), and of course the Reclamation Legion bonuses giving Relentless and Move Through Cover doesn't hurt either
I would strongly suggest dropping the plasma pistols from your list. They aren't worth it. You may get 1, possibly 2 on a good day, shots the entire game with it.
The other problem with your list against crons is that you seem to be going for some moderate armor spam. There are 2 problems with this;
1) Necrons are excellent against tanks. Possibly the best in the game, though most likely 2nd after Eldar
2) Marines have bad tanks.
Take more bikers. I would strongly advise for as many plasma weapons/grav weapons as you can take.
What flavor of necron list do you face? Is it the same one every time? Necrons can be a varied force and still compete well, unlike other factions such as marines or nids.
Necron are good, yes.
I like the current version, it reminds me of how they started in 2nd edition, but yes, they are even better now.
In my experience the short/medium range of weapons are their downside and that is when and how you can make them lose. Furthermore: play on objectives.
But the Dark Angel army is see here is just not that strong.
And it never was IMO. This could only have worked well in 1st edition and in 2nd if not facing Blood Angels.
With current codex, edition and meta: no use of formations, dreadnought are just bad now, a predator alone is not worth it.
If you add a few infantry models, you can build a demi-company and get overwatch on full BS.
If you add a landraider you can take the formation where you can add the predator to the landraider as a unit and the techmarine can protect your predator.
And in general, with any army: TAC usually only works well if you have at least 2 of each type of unit. This list has 1 of each unit, which makes it easy for an opponent to take away the tactical option that theatens him most.
My 1850 DA force is 2 x demi company (free transports, in my case drop pods) plus the rest of points spent on bikes.
I can land anywhere and, with bikes, move to anywhere i want.
Quanar wrote: Really, that list looks reasonably solid, though I'm sure people will be able to chime in. Here's my 2c (I apologies for altering your formatting):
Again, predictable because of the ease of getting the DV models, and whilst the Black Knights should really have your plasma needs covered, flamers and grav aren't much of a draw against 'Crons. Melta would be a possibility (helps against Quantum Shielding), but then I'd be putting them in pods rather than rhinos/razors and you'd run the risk of splitting your forces. Presuming the plasma cannon gets combat-squadded to hold backfield?
Again, a very solid unit, but I'm not sure about the number of grenade launchers - I generally only have one per unit, but hopefully some other people will chime in as I've not had many games with mine.
Reasonable choice. Again, not much to say. Has a chance of damaging vehicles but not terribly mobile.
- Indeed, you should never take multiple grenade launchers on your bikes, one on each unit is enough.
- Get rid of all plasma pistols you have. They're on the list of "guns you never take if you have the option"-list.
- The plasma cannon on the Tac squad is a weird choice. I get that because of DV, you have one lying around but that doesn't make it a good pick. Every time the rhino moves, the cannon can't shoot.
- I don't like tac squads altogether, so I'd keep them small.
Can't really give much other advice because I don't know what the Necron army looked like.
Thanks for the advice guys. I messaged my friend so hopefully I'll that list of his later today. Sounds like it's pretty essential to present in order to get more advice.
There are ways to beat the Decurion, and it can be done without a steamrolling tournament list also.
The Decurion has no objective secured units whatsoever, use this to your advantage. As a Dark Angels player, you have access to some really mobile and hard to take down units.
Melee is a weakness for Necrons, and one of the fastest ways of destroying them by the droves is to beat them in combat, and sweeping advance them.
Third, you are probably dealing with Wraiths. Tarpit them with a durable unit ( Biker Command Squad with a character in it for example ) or simply ignore them completely.
Always play the mission against Necrons. Never go for tabling unless you play something ridiculous like War Convocation with Flesh Tearers Strike Force.
First part yes Second part not as much. unless you are talioring REALLY hard with nothing but power mauls or sending something super expensive against them, Even warriors will last quite a bit and LD10 will make it super hard to fail and run away.
This isnt to say you cant use terror or whatever interomancy DA has to lower there LD but it quite a crap shoot and requires a lot of dedication. as previously mentioned.
3rd tar pit is a good idea. better with something that can tank with invul saves to mitigate those rends. but ignoreing em is going to be hard with that 12" move. however to bring up that point. they wont be having RP if they are some distance away from the spider so you can force them to make choices that way.
Ignoring Wraiths is a good way to lose all your tanks and non-tarpit units
LIkewise, Necrons as an army aren't terrible in CC. Their basic troops aren't great in CC, but that's true of most armies, and Necron Troops make great tarpits and the Necrons very much have capable CC units and tarpits of their own.
ObSec also isn't a killer weakness. It's a nice bonus for the opponent, but it only counts if you're contesting with an ObSec unit on a turn that the objective counts, and there's a lot of ways to deal with that.
A good friend of mine plays necrons and has serious problems with my other buddies space wolf lists.
He usually runs a very strong wolf star and 2x crusaders with an arjac terminator kill team and rune priest in terminator armour and then the other crusader with a bunch of blood claws, a terminator leader, and a rune priest.
He goes for endurance if he can and he just chews the necrons units up in melee.
Even his wraiths with the 4+ reanimation were wiped in a single round of combat (also due in part to enfeable landing.)
The only thing that seems to work well is hitting them obscenely hard over and over again.
PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote: I'm going to start by saying that this thread isn't anything new. It's mainly just yet another person complaining about Necrons. But at the same time, I'm looking for tips.
Necrons (Rocks) suck to play against (with Scissors), unless you bring Destroyer weapons (Paper). Then it sucks for the Necron player.
If you're looking for "balance", bring half Destroyers and half not. He'll win against half your stuff, and you'll win against half his stuff.
Drop that Warhound Titan with both twin Turbo-Lasers, and don't feel guilty.
Konrax wrote: A good friend of mine plays necrons and has serious problems with my other buddies space wolf lists.
He usually runs a very strong wolf star and 2x crusaders with an arjac terminator kill team and rune priest in terminator armour and then the other crusader with a bunch of blood claws, a terminator leader, and a rune priest.
He goes for endurance if he can and he just chews the necrons units up in melee.
Even his wraiths with the 4+ reanimation were wiped in a single round of combat (also due in part to enfeable landing.)
The only thing that seems to work well is hitting them obscenely hard over and over again.
That seems...really out of ordinary.
Even assuming you bump them down to T3 (from T5) and hit them with nothing but S6 attacks with a higher WS than the Wraiths (and at a higher Init), a unit of 6 Decurion RP'd Wraiths should require ~50 attacks to wipe out. The level of resources being devoted to such concentration of power there is far in excess of the relative points value of the Wraiths, you're talking half the army devoted to killing one unit, and even that shouldn't be guaranteed to wipe them in one turn on anything near a routine basis.
Vaktathi wrote: Ignoring Wraiths is a good way to lose all your tanks and non-tarpit units
LIkewise, Necrons as an army aren't terrible in CC. Their basic troops aren't great in CC, but that's true of most armies, and Necron Troops make great tarpits and the Necrons very much have capable CC units and tarpits of their own.
ObSec also isn't a killer weakness. It's a nice bonus for the opponent, but it only counts if you're contesting with an ObSec unit on a turn that the objective counts, and there's a lot of ways to deal with that.
Depends on your list. My 38 obsec units Deldar list can ignore the Wraiths just fine. It also decimates the Decurion because of their lack of obsec by scoring way more objectives than they ever can, and not really caring when something blows up as they will never have the firepower to take down enough.
Vaktathi wrote: Ignoring Wraiths is a good way to lose all your tanks and non-tarpit units
LIkewise, Necrons as an army aren't terrible in CC. Their basic troops aren't great in CC, but that's true of most armies, and Necron Troops make great tarpits and the Necrons very much have capable CC units and tarpits of their own.
ObSec also isn't a killer weakness. It's a nice bonus for the opponent, but it only counts if you're contesting with an ObSec unit on a turn that the objective counts, and there's a lot of ways to deal with that.
Depends on your list. My 38 obsec units Deldar list can ignore the Wraiths just fine. It also decimates the Decurion because of their lack of obsec.
Well naturally the fastest moving miniature in the game would be able to ignore most wraiths.....
not the mention hit and run. eventual fearless and so on.
Surprised the necrons didnt just spread out over there objectives so you cant get within contesting range.
also mulch them with those ignore cover bikes they have too.
Well naturally the fastest moving miniature in the game would be able to ignore most wraiths.....
As can Gladius Strike Force or any decent MSU build.
If you're going to resist proven strategies with the argument of "you need a specialized list for that to work" -then well... that is the case with pretty much everything. It's a game of rock-paper-scissors.
The surest way to beat the Decurion is by playing the mission with a massive obsec MSU list, or playing something that has the firepower to take them down ( those lists aren't very numerous, but I've seen a Warconvo+FTSF do it. )
Well naturally the fastest moving miniature in the game would be able to ignore most wraiths.....
As can Gladius Strike Force or any decent MSU build.
If you're going to resist proven strategies with the argument of "you need a specialized list for that to work" -then well... that is the case with pretty much everything. It's a game of rock-paper-scissors.
Excuse me? who is resisting what?
2 issues edit: bleh 3 issues.
Wraiths ignore all terrain in the way and move 12" + d6 for a run.
If by Gladius you mean free rhinos or razors then while they have 18" stock movement they will need to maneuver around things. not only that on a standard 4x6 board you WILL run out of space to run. and unlike eldar jetbikes, they cannot just skim 48" to the other side of the table.
on MSU on foot? sure you will be feeding them a few dudes at a time but thats not really ignoring the problem.
Your sentence "Well naturally the fastest moving miniature in the game would be able to ignore most wraiths..... " seemed to indicate that only Deldar MSU could ignore Wraiths and that ignoring them wouldn't be a good strategy. If that wasn't the case, then cool.
A Gladius that is maximized for the amount of obsec units doesn't need to run from the Wraiths. It can just plain ignore them. If the Wraiths get a first turn charge ( and that's a big if because you basically have to let them do that yourself ) they will wreck around 4 units at most during the course of the game.
A Gladius can have up to 40 objective secure units if you account for all Characters, the free transports, units inside them, and your Auxiliary Choices ( of which Scouts make good and cheap small units, for example. )
So yeah, the Wraiths won't be of much interest. Last time I personally played that matchup the Wraiths killed 2 free transports, and a 5-man Devastator Squad from me over the course of the 5 turn long game. Were it 7 turns they would've perhaps destroyed another unit. It didn't affect the match at all.
Here's an example from the Blue Tide, of which the latter example isn't even maximized for MSU. You could have even more:
BoLS wrote:
Welcome to “The Blue Tide”
DETACHMENT: Gladius Strike Force 1-2 Core, 1+ Auxiliary (All Objective Secured)
Battle Demi-Company One (Core Choice 1)
1 Captain (90)
Tac (70)
Tac (70)
Tac (70)
Assault (70)
Dev (70, 0HBs)
440pts – Grants 4 free Razorbacks 1 free Drop Pod/Rhino ( BONUS 255pts )
Battle Demi-Company Two (Core Choice 1)
+ Suppression Force (Auxiliary Choice 1)
2 Whirlwind (130)
1 Land Speeder (45)
Detachment total: 1055pts
Actual points in models: 1565pts
“Free Bonus” points in models: 510pts
22 Objective Secured Units
9HBs (8 are TL)
2 Whirlwinds
Now Double that at a bit over 2000pts.
Detachment total: 2110pt
Actual points in models: 3130pts
“Free” points in models: 1020pts
44 Objective Secured Units
18HBs (16 are TL)
4 Whirlwinds
You can also make a captain Kor'Sarro Khan, giving your transports Scout, and hoarding up most objectives on the board with relative ease. Make a few transports Drop Pods for those Line Breakers, Behind Enemy Lines and stealing those Necron table edge objectives. It works, but it simultaneously perfectly portraits how ridiculous both these armies are. If you ask me, neither the Decurion nor Gladius should've never been created.
Vaktathi wrote: Ignoring Wraiths is a good way to lose all your tanks and non-tarpit units
LIkewise, Necrons as an army aren't terrible in CC. Their basic troops aren't great in CC, but that's true of most armies, and Necron Troops make great tarpits and the Necrons very much have capable CC units and tarpits of their own.
ObSec also isn't a killer weakness. It's a nice bonus for the opponent, but it only counts if you're contesting with an ObSec unit on a turn that the objective counts, and there's a lot of ways to deal with that.
Depends on your list. My 38 obsec units Deldar list can ignore the Wraiths just fine. It also decimates the Decurion because of their lack of obsec by scoring way more objectives than they ever can, and not really caring when something blows up as they will never have the firepower to take down enough.
I would wonder how you're fitting 38 ObSec units into an army, and doing so with any sort of killing power ability. If we're talking a typical 1850pt tournament army list, 38 units is an average of 48.6 points each, not including any sort of HQ units, weapons upgrades, etc. 19 barebones Warriors with 19 barebones Venoms would be 1805 points and require 3 CAD's and an allied CAD, unless I'm missing something?
Likewise, without the ability to tank shock, or kill, anything, it seems a Necron list would have no problems keeping such weeny units away from objectives simply by plopping a unit on top of them and keeping you 3" away through blobbing up the board. I would also think at that point, with that many units on the board, the Wraiths would have no problem engaging targets as you simply do not have enough board space to maneuver that many units away from everything, and anything they get into, assuming such fragile units, is going to be vaporized.
That said, sure, if you make an extreme build around an ability you can get more use out of it, but most armies will have 3-8 ObSec units, not double digits and certainly not dozens.
Runic wrote: Your sentence "Well naturally the fastest moving miniature in the game would be able to ignore most wraiths..... " seemed to indicate that only Deldar MSU could ignore Wraiths and that ignoring them wouldn't be a good strategy. If that wasn't the case, then cool.
A Gladius that is maximized for the amount of obsec units doesn't need to run from the Wraiths. It can just plain ignore them. If the Wraiths get a first turn charge ( and that's a big if because you basically have to let them do that yourself ) they will wreck around 4 units at most during the course of the game.
A Gladius can have up to 40 objective secure units if you account for all Characters, the free transports, units inside them, and your Auxiliary Choices ( of which Scouts make good and cheap small units, for example. )
So yeah, the Wraiths won't be of much interest. Last time I personally played that matchup the Wraiths killed 2 free transports, and a 5-man Devastator Squad from me over the course of the 5 turn long game. Were it 7 turns they would've perhaps destroyed another unit. It didn't affect the match at all.
What im saying is naturally the fastest unit the game can easily avoid and ignore wraiths considering you can turbo boost litterally across the table.
since you brought that up as your evidence to the ease of ignore wraiths.
Its not just DE as well. regular eldar can also deal with it.
as can White scar bikes or other bikes in general that can turbo boost and hit and run. thats pretty sound.
And while feeding msu units to stall out a uncertain victory is possible. maelstrom is random as feth, and half the objectives will be on the enemy side, in eternal war its extra bad if there is an odd number and if you didnt place it. and you are extra fethed in kill points.
Yes, kill point missions ofcourse are horrible for an MSU army. It depends on what you're playing and where, naturally. I'll just articulate more precisely; "The Wraiths are easy to ignore with an MSU -army or a very durable tarpit."
Advice against the Decurion was asked, unfortunately the best counters require specialized army builds. Generalist armies don't do very well these days in competitive enviroments on average. Asfar as I'm concerned, the Decurion is an army for a competitive enviroment. It is absolutely devastating for fluffy soft armies. If someone wants to beat the Decurion but doesn't want to employ the tools for it then I don't know what to say. It will be an uphill battle.
Personally I play hybrid scenarios ( quite frequent in the bigger tournaments aswell ) most of the time, sometimes modified Maelstrom ( to make it more sensible. ) I don't think I know anyone who plays unmodified Eternal War these days ( personally. )
If one is in a group that plays EW, then they are going to have some really difficult times with the Decurion.
Vaktathi, a maximized MSU army doesn't really need killing power. Their effectiveness is just based on the fairly solid assumption of no army being able to wipe out that many units during the course of a game and just basically playing Mario Kart around the table, going for objectives and caring about little else.
It does work, but it's a bit boring. Personally I haven't seen a Gladius Strikeforce tabled ever. Not saying its impossible, though.
After hearing about using melee, AP1-4 weapons and Terminators, I couldn't help but think of recommending Deathwing Knights. But they don't get to sweep and I don't even know if they'd be a good idea.
Honestly this sort of thing just makes me more and more afraid to ever play against Necrons. I feel like TFG for saying this but I'm almost thinking of rejecting all games against Necrons (and Craftword Eldar) because it just sounds like such an awful experience.
Doesn't help that I cannot comprehend objectives, might not have any Objective Secured units in my list at the time and might not even have objectives in the game at all (the guy who introduced me to 40k exclusively or semi-exclusively plays "annihilation games" where to only objective is to kill all the opposing models, I'm aware of the potential problems in that but I actually like the idea. Sounds way more fun than parking things in random places and suddenly having the game end because one of us had a random APC sitting on a specific hill for longer).
Konrax wrote: A good friend of mine plays necrons and has serious problems with my other buddies space wolf lists.
He usually runs a very strong wolf star and 2x crusaders with an arjac terminator kill team and rune priest in terminator armour and then the other crusader with a bunch of blood claws, a terminator leader, and a rune priest.
He goes for endurance if he can and he just chews the necrons units up in melee.
Even his wraiths with the 4+ reanimation were wiped in a single round of combat (also due in part to enfeable landing.)
The only thing that seems to work well is hitting them obscenely hard over and over again.
That seems...really out of ordinary.
Even assuming you bump them down to T3 (from T5) and hit them with nothing but S6 attacks with a higher WS than the Wraiths (and at a higher Init), a unit of 6 Decurion RP'd Wraiths should require ~50 attacks to wipe out. The level of resources being devoted to such concentration of power there is far in excess of the relative points value of the Wraiths, you're talking half the army devoted to killing one unit, and even that shouldn't be guaranteed to wipe them in one turn on anything near a routine basis.
It may sound over kill, but to have the only real melee threat they have quickly was a critical move.
He also likes to field long fangs and knows to go for the spiders.
I like playing against necrons, it feels like they fit the fluff, it's a hard slog but they can be beaten, but I play hh and have a much better range of tools to play them, 15 marines with chain axes wreck face, red butchers laugh off there shots, and angron beats the snot out of any of there lords of war, just wish I could keep up with them... Bloody fast army.
CrashGordon94 wrote: Doesn't help that I cannot comprehend objectives, might not have any Objective Secured units in my list at the time and might not even have objectives in the game at all (the guy who introduced me to 40k exclusively or semi-exclusively plays "annihilation games" where to only objective is to kill all the opposing models, I'm aware of the potential problems in that but I actually like the idea. Sounds way more fun than parking things in random places and suddenly having the game end because one of us had a random APC sitting on a specific hill for longer).
Maybe you should start playing more Malestrom missions?
JohnHwangDD wrote: Maybe you should start playing more Malestrom missions?
Maybe? Don't know but I'll keep it in mind anyway. Still not certain I'd enjoy objectives or be equipped to take them. (only two ObSec units if I bring my CAD, none whatsoever if it's just DWSF + RWSF)
Also, are we sure Dreadnoughts would be bad for this purpose? Sounds like they'd be well-equipped for the melee-abuse and unlike DW Knights they CAN sweep 'em. Then again I'm almost certainly missing something, just wanted to clarify.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Maybe you should start playing more Malestrom missions?
Maybe? Don't know but I'll keep it in mind anyway. Still not certain I'd enjoy objectives or be equipped to take them. (only two ObSec units if I bring my CAD, none whatsoever if it's just DWSF + RWSF)
Also, are we sure Dreadnoughts would be bad for this purpose? Sounds like they'd be well-equipped for the melee-abuse and unlike DW Knights they CAN sweep 'em. Then again I'm almost certainly missing something, just wanted to clarify.
Your dreads will be owned by Gauss weapons. Anything more expensive than a Chimera is very inefficient against Necrons.
I'll start by saying that I am also quite new to 40k, and even more so to da, but in my most recent game against a Necron buddy of mine I had a fair bit of success deep-striking several termie squads in behind his main forces to delay his advance and soak up a lot of fire. The twin-linked firing for the turn in which they deep strike is great for taking out something important like a Ghost Ark or lone ic, or just for putting some hurt on his main force. Also remember that anything that would cause id will change his 4+ rp to a 5+, so power fists are great. Good luck with your next game.
GoliothOnline wrote: I wanna try a Kytan Daemon Engine of Khorne against some Decurion Wraiths.
Sadly this is what the necrons player wants is for your best unit to get tied up fighting them.
I've had games in the past against necrons where bringing a vindicator was a huge success. I had a game recently where my first shot killed 5 wraiths (he had a very poor roll). Given that it's instant death makes a big difference when you are just trying to get some damage through.
My spawn on the other had with nurgle mark which are a comparable cost get eaten alive by wraiths. They do much better against warriors at least.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Maybe you should start playing more Malestrom missions?
Maybe? Don't know but I'll keep it in mind anyway. Still not certain I'd enjoy objectives or be equipped to take them. (only two ObSec units if I bring my CAD, none whatsoever if it's just DWSF + RWSF)
Also, are we sure Dreadnoughts would be bad for this purpose? Sounds like they'd be well-equipped for the melee-abuse and unlike DW Knights they CAN sweep 'em. Then again I'm almost certainly missing something, just wanted to clarify.
As someone who plays mostly annihilation battles myself, it is nice to change it up and have an objective game.
Konrax wrote: A good friend of mine plays necrons and has serious problems with my other buddies space wolf lists.
He usually runs a very strong wolf star and 2x crusaders with an arjac terminator kill team and rune priest in terminator armour and then the other crusader with a bunch of blood claws, a terminator leader, and a rune priest.
He goes for endurance if he can and he just chews the necrons units up in melee.
Even his wraiths with the 4+ reanimation were wiped in a single round of combat (also due in part to enfeable landing.)
The only thing that seems to work well is hitting them obscenely hard over and over again.
This right here. My mate's spacewolves destroy me. Irrespective of what I play. He's made it an aggressive "oh shi" type of force.
Mind you I don't play with wraiths or tomb blades (mainly because wraiths are quite possibly the best, and crons in general are very very underpriced for what you get. So my relatively slow army gets decimated by wolves, I've also had some issues with Tau, because 1000 shots a turn can do that to you. Decurion out of the box is just silly. And to have a base unit with a 3+/4+ and essentially a 5+ FNP at the cost of 13 to 17 points per model is just looney, and to then give them a 4+ for being in Decurion, and add a cryptek and you've got a 4+ with a 4+ FNP against pretty much everything.
Crons are quite crap in combat, for example I had a 5 man squad overrun by 2 pathfinders :/
All you need to do is get in combat and you'll lay waste to them due to I1 or I2 and their respective WS. Sure you won't kill allot of them, but you will almost always be the one winning
ThePolarBear wrote: In my most recent game against a Necron buddy of mine I had a fair bit of success deep-striking several termie squads in behind his main forces to delay his advance and soak up a lot of fire. .
This right here is one of the best things to do when facing Necrons. Few armies can comfortably plan on destroying the robots from space so messing up their advance towards the objectives is essential. If your army feels weak against them play the mission and abandon all hope of actually destroying anything (but be happy when you do).
ThePolarBear wrote: I'll start by saying that I am also quite new to 40k, and even more so to da, but in my most recent game against a Necron buddy of mine I had a fair bit of success deep-striking several termie squads in behind his main forces to delay his advance and soak up a lot of fire. The twin-linked firing for the turn in which they deep strike is great for taking out something important like a Ghost Ark or lone ic, or just for putting some hurt on his main force. Also remember that anything that would cause id will change his 4+ rp to a 5+, so power fists are great. Good luck with your next game.
That's definitely something worth remembering. After all, I do have terminators at my disposal. I'll likely give this a whirl next time I face Necrons.
The last notable time I fought Necrons I just took a squad of TH/SS Terminators and they were able to eat the entire army pretty much. There wasn't much AP1/2 to take care of them and everything folded in close combat.
Took some advice here and there was actually able to take down the Necrons! Ignoring certain units, such as wraiths, and going straight for objectives worked like a charm. It was still a close game, but I was able to pull off the victory. Really goes to show that Necrons are beatable.
Power mauls and power spears. Give them to characters, profit.
Even three strength 6 ap4 attacks from a tac Sargent will swing the melee heavily in the marines favor. Added bonus that it crushes most xenos army's troop units as well so it isn't even list tailoring.
Have you considered the Dark Talon? The large blast template on the rift cannon (with a chance of creating a vortex rift) can be pretty devastating if you get large number of models beneath it.
Even three strength 6 ap4 attacks from a tac Sargent will swing the melee heavily in the marines favor. Added bonus that it crushes most xenos army's troop units as well so it isn't even list tailoring.
Win combat and sweep the necrons.
If the necrons have fearless then you need to shoot them.
Crons shooting bar a very few odds n sods is limited to 24'' sit back and hammer one unit at a time till it dies, repeat until the core of his army has moved into range them move in for kill in CQC, crons are or the same in assault as your dark angels but will strike second so take advantage of this to try a sweeping advance as much as possible. if hes troop heavy I find bottle necking foot slogger armies great too, use suicide rhinos and drop pods to pin his crons in so they find it harder to get into rapid fire range, their Gauss weapons can seem terrifyingly versatile but use that to your advantage they wont explode your vehicles leaving husks for cover and bottle necking.
Slaphead wrote: Awesome to hear that you beat those Necrons.
Have you considered the Dark Talon? The large blast template on the rift cannon (with a chance of creating a vortex rift) can be pretty devastating if you get large number of models beneath it.
I actually have considered it and is near the top of my 'to get' list.
I'm going to start by saying that this thread isn't anything new. It's mainly just yet another person complaining about Necrons. But at the same time, I'm looking for tips.
Anyways, I played against Necrons for the first time today. And holy moly it was absolutely brutal. I actually conceded by the end of turn 2 because I was getting slaughtered. It was 1500 of my Dark Angels vs 1500 of my buddy's new Necrons. And I thought the option of having (and I was actually using) a 2+ rerollable jink was mean. But compared to Necrons... 2+ rerollable jink is laughable.
This game was one of the few cases where I legitimately questioned why I play 40k over other games like Warmachine. I mean losing is one thing. I've lost before (I actually lose a lot. Still fairly new after all and I face Tau often). But this was INSANE. This wasn't a game. This was a one sided slaughter! I mean my buddy didn't even use the Decurion Detachment. But with formations and what not he was getting 4+ invulns and 4+ resurrection (or whatever it's called) and I just couldn't kill a damn thing.
Enough of my complaining, though. I don't want to go "Welp, with Necrons around, I'm never going to play." and I don't want to refuse to battle my buddy. I mean he bought the models after all! I want to face them and have a decent match. Win or lose, I really don't mind. As long as it isn't a one sided slaughter. So what tips would one offer to someone when up against necrons? Or even better; what tips would one offer to someone who plays Dark Angels and Harlequins when up against necrons?
Dude all you have to do is jink everything then shoot what you can and lock urself in close combat... There is no way you can actually lose if you play a pure ravenwing, since your army is fast and you can hit and run... Of course, if your friend play a power list with mass flyrers, tom blades and ghost arks, its a bit different ! However, blacknights always stand a chance man ! Grav guns and twin-linked plasma guns are awsomes !
Vaktathi wrote: There have been many suggestions in this thread, many of them correct, the problem being that pulling them off in practice and/or generating the sheer volume of fire (e.g. heavy bolters and such) needed to do the job often is simply not practicable. I haven't personally seen Necrons lose a game with the current book to anyone but Eldar, Admech, FMC spam tyranids, and the new SM codex yet, and the book's been out for IIRC 8 months now.
Hormagaunt swarm with a few Venomthropes (or Malenthropes), Tervigons as synapse and some can openers works wonders. The massed hormagaunts are more than a match for warriors in combat in addition to providing target saturation and a meat wall, your shrouded spewer of choice acts a force multiplier for the guant wave by increasing their screening potential and helping them into combat. The tervigons don't directly add much to the combat but they throw out psychic powers and some termagants to aid hormies in target saturation and provide a little shooting for those times the enemy tries to kite, you can also put crushing claws on them if you can spare the points. Finally the Carnifexes actually get to play melee in this build as their role is to seek out repair barges and tear them open like wet tissue paper. Despite the lack of Anti-Air it doesn't really matter as the teleporter just throws more units into the grinder and the death ray is basically worthless against MC's and spread out swarms.
The main threats to this build are death marks taking out your synapse (Take regen and laugh at them if you have the points) and flayed ones tarpiting the hormagaunts.
Vaktathi wrote: There have been many suggestions in this thread, many of them correct, the problem being that pulling them off in practice and/or generating the sheer volume of fire (e.g. heavy bolters and such) needed to do the job often is simply not practicable. I haven't personally seen Necrons lose a game with the current book to anyone but Eldar, Admech, FMC spam tyranids, and the new SM codex yet, and the book's been out for IIRC 8 months now.
Hormagaunt swarm with a few Venomthropes (or Malenthropes), Tervigons as synapse and some can openers works wonders. The massed hormagaunts are more than a match for warriors in combat in addition to providing target saturation and a meat wall, your shrouded spewer of choice acts a force multiplier for the guant wave by increasing their screening potential and helping them into combat. The tervigons don't directly add much to the combat but they throw out psychic powers and some termagants to aid hormies in target saturation and provide a little shooting for those times the enemy tries to kite, you can also put crushing claws on them if you can spare the points. Finally the Carnifexes actually get to play melee in this build as their role is to seek out repair barges and tear them open like wet tissue paper. Despite the lack of Anti-Air it doesn't really matter as the teleporter just throws more units into the grinder and the death ray is basically worthless against MC's and spread out swarms.
The main threats to this build are death marks taking out your synapse (Take regen and laugh at them if you have the points) and flayed ones tarpiting the hormagaunts.
You also forget that Flayed Ones will destroy Hormagaunts with ease, and Tomb Blades will destroy them and the Venomthropes, again, with ease. AP5-4 with Ignores Cover is the bane of Tyranids.
Got absolutely slaughtered with my decurion by Ravenwing at the weekend.
Take the following (approximate) list:
Sammael
Black Knights command (apothecary)
Black Knights
Support Squadron (Darkshroud, Typhoons with multi-melta)
Support Squadron (Darkshroud, HB/AC speeders)
Bomber (dark talon?)
Bomber
Fighter
Very fast, very survivable. 2+ re-roll jink, T5, 3+ save bikes.
Speeders are weaker but can still jink with re-roll and are in squadrons so focussing down the Darkshrouds is hard.
Anything coming in from reserve gets a volley of S8 to the face.
Anything assaulting gets a volley of BS2 S8 to the face, plus overwatch from the unit itself (if it's bikes).
Good shooting - twin-linked plasma, S8 missiles, melta. BS5 strafing runs from the fliers which are heavily armed.
Skyfire/hovering fliers as required, that arrive on turn 2.
S5 4A on the charge with rending bikers (+HoW) that hit and run. Stasis nerfs your units WS and I.
Necrons have low firepower in my opinion and all you have to do is sweeping advance vs their 2 initiative, with harliquins you have like a 6 initiative ezpz
marcman wrote: Necrons have low firepower in my opinion and all you have to do is sweeping advance vs their 2 initiative, with harliquins you have like a 6 initiative ezpz
Its easy to just say it.
They have have average fire power. bolters all around that glances on 6 has a lot of utility. they also have a lot of st7 though i dont know if is spammed as much anymore.
in combat they are still marines. just slower. and wraiths are just boss.
Unless you list tailor and only take ap4 or better cc. they will be getting (If my math serves me right) something equal or slightly better than a 3+ save. and or effectively a 4-5+ invul save.
on top of LD10 to force the fail.
It is possible to make them fail LD and sweep but its not as easy as people keep saying it is.
I actually win against my friend's Necrons quite often, or the game ends in a close tie. And he's not a bad 40k player either, I think he came 3rd place in a national tournament half a year ago.
I play DKoK, so my army has a greater weapons range than Necrons. Being able to bombard them with templates and outgun them while hiding behind an Aegis wall, goes a long way.
Also try to figure out which or your weapons fit which target and concentrate on wiping out targets one at a time.
A well built DKoK army is probably one of the few things a Necron army has to fear from anything IG related, with the ability to spam large amounts of relatively cheap S10 AP2 pieplates from T7 W4 3+sv guns that ignore 25% morale tests *and* still have points left over for lots of S6 AP4 pieplates in elites slots.
An arty-spam DKoK list can be a very good Necron neutralizer in a way that a Codex IG army can't do as well.
Formosa wrote: The dark talon is oddly good at removing wraiths, the i2 and taking an I test or die if wounded is pretty good against crons.
Sadly not. Wraiths are not i2.
Actually, they are. They can take an upgrade that gives them i +3. I'd have to look at the wording to see if this applies to initiative tests. Even if it does, when Wraiths are being spammed they don't always have this upgrade.
Tbh in the last 17 years I have never beaten necrons with my now incredibly old 3rd/4th ed BA force or my current IG army which has been rehashed from 3rd all the way to 7th.
So any tips to a Guard player? Especially seeing I struggle to wipe necron units out.
I have a hard time understanding how DA will do well against necrons. Our local necron player utilizes a Wraith heavy force, and is all about getting into CC as quickly as possible. The squads tie up anything devastating and manage to beat nearly anything in melee given their absurd damage output and speed.
Formosa wrote: The dark talon is oddly good at removing wraiths, the i2 and taking an I test or die if wounded is pretty good against crons.
Sadly not. Wraiths are not i2.
Actually, they are. They can take an upgrade that gives them i +3. I'd have to look at the wording to see if this applies to initiative tests. Even if it does, when Wraiths are being spammed they don't always have this upgrade.
They just receive +3 to their Ini when they are attacking. So you can easily blind em.
Ashiraya wrote: That is true. I have never faced Wraiths without the upgrade, so I always assumed them to be I5.
Nah, only I5 during the fight sub-phase, so it applies for Sweeping Advance and strike order, but not elsewhere.
These days, all the Wraiths in a unit will have Coils though - you only saw wraiths without them when they affected enemy models in base contact, meaning only 2/3 wraiths in a unit needed them.
exsanguis wrote: Surely the humble LRBT would be useful for IG vs Necrons. S8 AP3 instant kills everything except Overlords, reducing their RP save to 5+.
Not quite, for one thing things like Tomb Blades, Destroyers and Wraiths are all T5 and fast so they largely shrug off the battle cannon and engage the tanks quickly, either disabling it or outright destroying it in return. Furthermore, when it comes to immortals or warriors, the big issue comes from how the RP comes in addition to cover saves, meaning that even if you add a -1 modifier they remain frustratingly resilient unlike units with FNP which have it cancelled out completely. And for IG, the LRBT is woefully overcosted and difficult to bring in sufficient numbers without sacrificing the cost efficiency of the rest of your army to deal with the other threats I have mentioned.
exsanguis wrote: Surely the humble LRBT would be useful for IG vs Necrons. S8 AP3 instant kills everything except Overlords, reducing their RP save to 5+.
On paper, yeah. In practice, unfortunately they're just not as cool.
Assume decent spread and that an LRBT will typically get no more than 5 models beneath a blast template, maybe 2.5 on a mild scatter, and none on a bad scatter, assume 5+ cover (there's usually *something*), and between Decurion & Reclamation Legion bonuses to RP (still 5+ reroll 1's for the "troop" equivalents) you're averaging just 0.85 wounds per turn Warriors/Immortals/Flayed Ones/etc.
Even with a direct hit, getting 10 models under the template, in the open, wounding on 2's with no armor or cover saves allowed, you'd only average about 5 wounds with the most optimal and rare of circumstances.
Also, as noted, the T5 units still get their full 4+ RP, and things like Tomb Blades or Wraiths can always rely on Invuls or Jink.
For a 150pt tank (that Gauss is actually pretty useful against due to not caring about AV value), they're not particularly impressive
Space Marines can defeat Necrons. The trouble is that you need specific units in order to do it, and quite often the other player doesn't have those units. Honour Guard and Assault Terminators are good.
Also bear in mind that every single unit in the army counts as a Necron (IIRC), so you basically hit him.
The basic Necron, the Necron Warrior, is Toughness 4 and has an Armor save of 3+ (just like Marines) so to easily kill them use a lot of weapons with more than Strength4 and at least Ap3, to nullify his armor saves. Stuff like Namely, Lascannons, Meltaguns, Plasmaguns, Missile Launchers and Assault Cannons. Get him to 25% of his army by killing off all the weaker units, and you automatically win.
The warrior has a 4+, not three. You are thinking of the immortals which are 17 points iirc.
Your go to weapons for necrons should be power mauls, power spears, lightning claws, and power swords. For ranged weapons look for autocannon, heavy bolter, assault cannons, and any anti tank guns. Also, do not forget that every space marine unit has access to krakk grenades. A single str6 ap4 shot is much more effective than a double tap from a bolter or a single pistol shot.
An immortal is almost as survivable as a terminator, but their survivability is easier to negate. The warrior is just a bit over or under the survivability of a tactical marine depending on decurion or cryptech assistance, but again their survivability is more easily negated than the marine due relying on multiple saves as opposed to a single better one.
Myc wrote: Space Marines can defeat Necrons. The trouble is that you need specific units in order to do it, and quite often the other player doesn't have those units. Honour Guard and Assault Terminators are good.
Also bear in mind that every single unit in the army counts as a Necron (IIRC), so you basically hit him.
The basic Necron, the Necron Warrior, is Toughness 4 and has an Armor save of 3+ (just like Marines) so to easily kill them use a lot of weapons with more than Strength4 and at least Ap3, to nullify his armor saves. Stuff like Namely, Lascannons, Meltaguns, Plasmaguns, Missile Launchers and Assault Cannons. Get him to 25% of his army by killing off all the weaker units, and you automatically win.
Also bear in mind that every single unit in the army counts as a Necron (IIRC), so you basically hit him.
The basic Necron, the Necron Warrior, is Toughness 4 and has an Armor save of 3+ (just like Marines) so to easily kill them use a lot of weapons with more than Strength4 and at least Ap3, to nullify his armor saves. Stuff like Namely, Lascannons, Meltaguns, Plasmaguns, Missile Launchers and Assault Cannons. Get him to 25% of his army by killing off all the weaker units, and you automatically win.
you are doing something I am often guilty of, and mixing up your editions. Current necrons are 4+, not 3+. This is "balanced" out by the fact that their resurrection protocols are much better now, taken like a feel no pain save instead of at the turn phase, can pretty much always be taken, and are only -1 from ID, instead of ignored. Also, they no longer have the 25% phase out rule.
As to beating necrons (without bike spam, other super death stars, counter cheesy business), CC and/or long range fire is your friend. Anything AP 4 will deny their save (but they will still get RP, often on a 4+ thanks to formation bonus).
Rifleman dreads (two TLAC) are great vs necrons. 4 TLstr 7 ap 4 shots, at 48" range is pretty good. Plus they can still tie them up in CC without their PF, but will likely not sweep the squad.
Assault cannons are nice, but they need you to get close enough that the warriors can fire back, and can typically only be taken en-mass on vehicles.
Lascannons are one shot and tend to be overkill.
Melta is one shot and has the same issue as lascannons AND assault cannons.
Plasma works well, but some people shy away due to overheat (not me, DA player).
Heavy bolters are actually great vs most of their army, 3 str5 ap4 shots at 36" range gives you a cheap way of putting shots at a comfortable range while ignoring their armor and increasing your wound pool. I actually enjoy running 2 HB land speeders, and this match up is one of the times they shine the most. Dakka preds also do well with AC + 2 HB.
In CC, you don't need super great units. Pretty much any dedicated assault unit will do. Unless you are fighting wraiths, lychguard or flayed ones.
For wraiths, you can either: Ignore them with speed and maneuverability, tar pit them with gobs of cheap models, or try and kill them with either huge volumes of fire or an even harder CC unit. There are tons of tactics discussions about wraiths specifically, a quick search should give you some ideas of how to deal with them for your army.
The rest of the advice is pretty general stuff. Target priority (spyders in canoptic harvest), focus fire important things. CC the shooty stuff, shoot the CC stuff, out range them, use terrain, cause more wounds, yada yada.
What GW doesnt tell you is that they actually feed off of your hate and anger towards the necrons.
thankfully they already have a large store of it so the won't update the necrons for another 5 years
Sorry to hear you got stomped. That's never fun.
