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Ignoring Wraiths is a good way to lose all your tanks and non-tarpit units

LIkewise, Necrons as an army aren't terrible in CC. Their basic troops aren't great in CC, but that's true of most armies, and Necron Troops make great tarpits and the Necrons very much have capable CC units and tarpits of their own.

ObSec also isn't a killer weakness. It's a nice bonus for the opponent, but it only counts if you're contesting with an ObSec unit on a turn that the objective counts, and there's a lot of ways to deal with that.

A good friend of mine plays necrons and has serious problems with my other buddies space wolf lists.

He usually runs a very strong wolf star and 2x crusaders with an arjac terminator kill team and rune priest in terminator armour and then the other crusader with a bunch of blood claws, a terminator leader, and a rune priest.

He goes for endurance if he can and he just chews the necrons units up in melee.

Even his wraiths with the 4+ reanimation were wiped in a single round of combat (also due in part to enfeable landing.)

The only thing that seems to work well is hitting them obscenely hard over and over again.

 PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
I'm going to start by saying that this thread isn't anything new. It's mainly just yet another person complaining about Necrons. But at the same time, I'm looking for tips.

Necrons (Rocks) suck to play against (with Scissors), unless you bring Destroyer weapons (Paper). Then it sucks for the Necron player.

If you're looking for "balance", bring half Destroyers and half not. He'll win against half your stuff, and you'll win against half his stuff.

Drop that Warhound Titan with both twin Turbo-Lasers, and don't feel guilty.

 Konrax wrote:
A good friend of mine plays necrons and has serious problems with my other buddies space wolf lists.

He usually runs a very strong wolf star and 2x crusaders with an arjac terminator kill team and rune priest in terminator armour and then the other crusader with a bunch of blood claws, a terminator leader, and a rune priest.

He goes for endurance if he can and he just chews the necrons units up in melee.

Even his wraiths with the 4+ reanimation were wiped in a single round of combat (also due in part to enfeable landing.)

The only thing that seems to work well is hitting them obscenely hard over and over again.

That seems...really out of ordinary.

Even assuming you bump them down to T3 (from T5) and hit them with nothing but S6 attacks with a higher WS than the Wraiths (and at a higher Init), a unit of 6 Decurion RP'd Wraiths should require ~50 attacks to wipe out. The level of resources being devoted to such concentration of power there is far in excess of the relative points value of the Wraiths, you're talking half the army devoted to killing one unit, and even that shouldn't be guaranteed to wipe them in one turn on anything near a routine basis.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ignoring Wraiths is a good way to lose all your tanks and non-tarpit units

LIkewise, Necrons as an army aren't terrible in CC. Their basic troops aren't great in CC, but that's true of most armies, and Necron Troops make great tarpits and the Necrons very much have capable CC units and tarpits of their own.

ObSec also isn't a killer weakness. It's a nice bonus for the opponent, but it only counts if you're contesting with an ObSec unit on a turn that the objective counts, and there's a lot of ways to deal with that.

Depends on your list. My 38 obsec units Deldar list can ignore the Wraiths just fine. It also decimates the Decurion because of their lack of obsec by scoring way more objectives than they ever can, and not really caring when something blows up as they will never have the firepower to take down enough.

 Runic wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ignoring Wraiths is a good way to lose all your tanks and non-tarpit units

LIkewise, Necrons as an army aren't terrible in CC. Their basic troops aren't great in CC, but that's true of most armies, and Necron Troops make great tarpits and the Necrons very much have capable CC units and tarpits of their own.

ObSec also isn't a killer weakness. It's a nice bonus for the opponent, but it only counts if you're contesting with an ObSec unit on a turn that the objective counts, and there's a lot of ways to deal with that.

Depends on your list. My 38 obsec units Deldar list can ignore the Wraiths just fine. It also decimates the Decurion because of their lack of obsec.

Well naturally the fastest moving miniature in the game would be able to ignore most wraiths.....

not the mention hit and run. eventual fearless and so on.

Surprised the necrons didnt just spread out over there objectives so you cant get within contesting range.

also mulch them with those ignore cover bikes they have too.

 Desubot wrote:

Well naturally the fastest moving miniature in the game would be able to ignore most wraiths.....

As can Gladius Strike Force or any decent MSU build.

If you're going to resist proven strategies with the argument of "you need a specialized list for that to work" -then well... that is the case with pretty much everything. It's a game of rock-paper-scissors.

The surest way to beat the Decurion is by playing the mission with a massive obsec MSU list, or playing something that has the firepower to take them down ( those lists aren't very numerous, but I've seen a Warconvo+FTSF do it. )

 Runic wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Well naturally the fastest moving miniature in the game would be able to ignore most wraiths.....

As can Gladius Strike Force or any decent MSU build.

If you're going to resist proven strategies with the argument of "you need a specialized list for that to work" -then well... that is the case with pretty much everything. It's a game of rock-paper-scissors.

Excuse me? who is resisting what?

2 issues edit: bleh 3 issues.

Wraiths ignore all terrain in the way and move 12" + d6 for a run.

If by Gladius you mean free rhinos or razors then while they have 18" stock movement they will need to maneuver around things. not only that on a standard 4x6 board you WILL run out of space to run. and unlike eldar jetbikes, they cannot just skim 48" to the other side of the table.

on MSU on foot? sure you will be feeding them a few dudes at a time but thats not really ignoring the problem.

Your sentence "Well naturally the fastest moving miniature in the game would be able to ignore most wraiths..... " seemed to indicate that only Deldar MSU could ignore Wraiths and that ignoring them wouldn't be a good strategy. If that wasn't the case, then cool.

A Gladius that is maximized for the amount of obsec units doesn't need to run from the Wraiths. It can just plain ignore them. If the Wraiths get a first turn charge ( and that's a big if because you basically have to let them do that yourself ) they will wreck around 4 units at most during the course of the game.

A Gladius can have up to 40 objective secure units if you account for all Characters, the free transports, units inside them, and your Auxiliary Choices ( of which Scouts make good and cheap small units, for example. )

So yeah, the Wraiths won't be of much interest. Last time I personally played that matchup the Wraiths killed 2 free transports, and a 5-man Devastator Squad from me over the course of the 5 turn long game. Were it 7 turns they would've perhaps destroyed another unit. It didn't affect the match at all.

Here's an example from the Blue Tide, of which the latter example isn't even maximized for MSU. You could have even more:

BoLS wrote:
Welcome to “The Blue Tide”
DETACHMENT: Gladius Strike Force 1-2 Core, 1+ Auxiliary (All Objective Secured)

Battle Demi-Company One (Core Choice 1)
1 Captain (90)
Tac (70)
Tac (70)
Tac (70)
Assault (70)
Dev (70, 0HBs)
440pts – Grants 4 free Razorbacks 1 free Drop Pod/Rhino ( BONUS 255pts )
Battle Demi-Company Two (Core Choice 1)

1 Chaplain (90)
Tac (70)
Tac (70)
Tac (70)
Assault (70)
Dev (70, 0HBs)
440pts Grants 4 free Razorbacks 1 free Drop Pod/Rhino ( BONUS 255pts )

+ Suppression Force (Auxiliary Choice 1)
2 Whirlwind (130)
1 Land Speeder (45)
Detachment total: 1055pts
Actual points in models: 1565pts
“Free Bonus” points in models: 510pts

22 Objective Secured Units
9HBs (8 are TL)
2 Whirlwinds

Now Double that at a bit over 2000pts.

Detachment total: 2110pt
Actual points in models: 3130pts
“Free” points in models: 1020pts

44 Objective Secured Units
18HBs (16 are TL)
4 Whirlwinds

You can also make a captain Kor'Sarro Khan, giving your transports Scout, and hoarding up most objectives on the board with relative ease. Make a few transports Drop Pods for those Line Breakers, Behind Enemy Lines and stealing those Necron table edge objectives. It works, but it simultaneously perfectly portraits how ridiculous both these armies are. If you ask me, neither the Decurion nor Gladius should've never been created.

 Runic wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ignoring Wraiths is a good way to lose all your tanks and non-tarpit units

LIkewise, Necrons as an army aren't terrible in CC. Their basic troops aren't great in CC, but that's true of most armies, and Necron Troops make great tarpits and the Necrons very much have capable CC units and tarpits of their own.

ObSec also isn't a killer weakness. It's a nice bonus for the opponent, but it only counts if you're contesting with an ObSec unit on a turn that the objective counts, and there's a lot of ways to deal with that.

Depends on your list. My 38 obsec units Deldar list can ignore the Wraiths just fine. It also decimates the Decurion because of their lack of obsec by scoring way more objectives than they ever can, and not really caring when something blows up as they will never have the firepower to take down enough.

I would wonder how you're fitting 38 ObSec units into an army, and doing so with any sort of killing power ability. If we're talking a typical 1850pt tournament army list, 38 units is an average of 48.6 points each, not including any sort of HQ units, weapons upgrades, etc. 19 barebones Warriors with 19 barebones Venoms would be 1805 points and require 3 CAD's and an allied CAD, unless I'm missing something?

Likewise, without the ability to tank shock, or kill, anything, it seems a Necron list would have no problems keeping such weeny units away from objectives simply by plopping a unit on top of them and keeping you 3" away through blobbing up the board. I would also think at that point, with that many units on the board, the Wraiths would have no problem engaging targets as you simply do not have enough board space to maneuver that many units away from everything, and anything they get into, assuming such fragile units, is going to be vaporized.


That said, sure, if you make an extreme build around an ability you can get more use out of it, but most armies will have 3-8 ObSec units, not double digits and certainly not dozens.

 Runic wrote:
Your sentence "Well naturally the fastest moving miniature in the game would be able to ignore most wraiths..... " seemed to indicate that only Deldar MSU could ignore Wraiths and that ignoring them wouldn't be a good strategy. If that wasn't the case, then cool.

A Gladius that is maximized for the amount of obsec units doesn't need to run from the Wraiths. It can just plain ignore them. If the Wraiths get a first turn charge ( and that's a big if because you basically have to let them do that yourself ) they will wreck around 4 units at most during the course of the game.

A Gladius can have up to 40 objective secure units if you account for all Characters, the free transports, units inside them, and your Auxiliary Choices ( of which Scouts make good and cheap small units, for example. )

So yeah, the Wraiths won't be of much interest. Last time I personally played that matchup the Wraiths killed 2 free transports, and a 5-man Devastator Squad from me over the course of the 5 turn long game. Were it 7 turns they would've perhaps destroyed another unit. It didn't affect the match at all.

What im saying is naturally the fastest unit the game can easily avoid and ignore wraiths considering you can turbo boost litterally across the table.
since you brought that up as your evidence to the ease of ignore wraiths.

Its not just DE as well. regular eldar can also deal with it.

as can White scar bikes or other bikes in general that can turbo boost and hit and run. thats pretty sound.

And while feeding msu units to stall out a uncertain victory is possible. maelstrom is random as feth, and half the objectives will be on the enemy side, in eternal war its extra bad if there is an odd number and if you didnt place it. and you are extra fethed in kill points.

Yes, kill point missions ofcourse are horrible for an MSU army. It depends on what you're playing and where, naturally. I'll just articulate more precisely; "The Wraiths are easy to ignore with an MSU -army or a very durable tarpit."

Advice against the Decurion was asked, unfortunately the best counters require specialized army builds. Generalist armies don't do very well these days in competitive enviroments on average. Asfar as I'm concerned, the Decurion is an army for a competitive enviroment. It is absolutely devastating for fluffy soft armies. If someone wants to beat the Decurion but doesn't want to employ the tools for it then I don't know what to say. It will be an uphill battle.

Personally I play hybrid scenarios ( quite frequent in the bigger tournaments aswell ) most of the time, sometimes modified Maelstrom ( to make it more sensible. ) I don't think I know anyone who plays unmodified Eternal War these days ( personally. )

If one is in a group that plays EW, then they are going to have some really difficult times with the Decurion.

Vaktathi, a maximized MSU army doesn't really need killing power. Their effectiveness is just based on the fairly solid assumption of no army being able to wipe out that many units during the course of a game and just basically playing Mario Kart around the table, going for objectives and caring about little else.

It does work, but it's a bit boring. Personally I haven't seen a Gladius Strikeforce tabled ever. Not saying its impossible, though.

After hearing about using melee, AP1-4 weapons and Terminators, I couldn't help but think of recommending Deathwing Knights. But they don't get to sweep and I don't even know if they'd be a good idea.

Honestly this sort of thing just makes me more and more afraid to ever play against Necrons. I feel like TFG for saying this but I'm almost thinking of rejecting all games against Necrons (and Craftword Eldar) because it just sounds like such an awful experience.
Doesn't help that I cannot comprehend objectives, might not have any Objective Secured units in my list at the time and might not even have objectives in the game at all (the guy who introduced me to 40k exclusively or semi-exclusively plays "annihilation games" where to only objective is to kill all the opposing models, I'm aware of the potential problems in that but I actually like the idea. Sounds way more fun than parking things in random places and suddenly having the game end because one of us had a random APC sitting on a specific hill for longer).

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
A good friend of mine plays necrons and has serious problems with my other buddies space wolf lists.

He usually runs a very strong wolf star and 2x crusaders with an arjac terminator kill team and rune priest in terminator armour and then the other crusader with a bunch of blood claws, a terminator leader, and a rune priest.

He goes for endurance if he can and he just chews the necrons units up in melee.

Even his wraiths with the 4+ reanimation were wiped in a single round of combat (also due in part to enfeable landing.)

The only thing that seems to work well is hitting them obscenely hard over and over again.

That seems...really out of ordinary.

Even assuming you bump them down to T3 (from T5) and hit them with nothing but S6 attacks with a higher WS than the Wraiths (and at a higher Init), a unit of 6 Decurion RP'd Wraiths should require ~50 attacks to wipe out. The level of resources being devoted to such concentration of power there is far in excess of the relative points value of the Wraiths, you're talking half the army devoted to killing one unit, and even that shouldn't be guaranteed to wipe them in one turn on anything near a routine basis.

It may sound over kill, but to have the only real melee threat they have quickly was a critical move.

He also likes to field long fangs and knows to go for the spiders.

I like playing against necrons, it feels like they fit the fluff, it's a hard slog but they can be beaten, but I play hh and have a much better range of tools to play them, 15 marines with chain axes wreck face, red butchers laugh off there shots, and angron beats the snot out of any of there lords of war, just wish I could keep up with them... Bloody fast army.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Doesn't help that I cannot comprehend objectives, might not have any Objective Secured units in my list at the time and might not even have objectives in the game at all (the guy who introduced me to 40k exclusively or semi-exclusively plays "annihilation games" where to only objective is to kill all the opposing models, I'm aware of the potential problems in that but I actually like the idea. Sounds way more fun than parking things in random places and suddenly having the game end because one of us had a random APC sitting on a specific hill for longer).

Maybe you should start playing more Malestrom missions?

I wanna try a Kytan Daemon Engine of Khorne against some Decurion Wraiths.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Maybe you should start playing more Malestrom missions?

Maybe? Don't know but I'll keep it in mind anyway. Still not certain I'd enjoy objectives or be equipped to take them. (only two ObSec units if I bring my CAD, none whatsoever if it's just DWSF + RWSF)

Also, are we sure Dreadnoughts would be bad for this purpose? Sounds like they'd be well-equipped for the melee-abuse and unlike DW Knights they CAN sweep 'em. Then again I'm almost certainly missing something, just wanted to clarify.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Maybe you should start playing more Malestrom missions?

Maybe? Don't know but I'll keep it in mind anyway. Still not certain I'd enjoy objectives or be equipped to take them. (only two ObSec units if I bring my CAD, none whatsoever if it's just DWSF + RWSF)

Also, are we sure Dreadnoughts would be bad for this purpose? Sounds like they'd be well-equipped for the melee-abuse and unlike DW Knights they CAN sweep 'em. Then again I'm almost certainly missing something, just wanted to clarify.

Your dreads will be owned by Gauss weapons. Anything more expensive than a Chimera is very inefficient against Necrons.

^Gotcha then.

I'll start by saying that I am also quite new to 40k, and even more so to da, but in my most recent game against a Necron buddy of mine I had a fair bit of success deep-striking several termie squads in behind his main forces to delay his advance and soak up a lot of fire. The twin-linked firing for the turn in which they deep strike is great for taking out something important like a Ghost Ark or lone ic, or just for putting some hurt on his main force. Also remember that anything that would cause id will change his 4+ rp to a 5+, so power fists are great. Good luck with your next game.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I wanna try a Kytan Daemon Engine of Khorne against some Decurion Wraiths.

Sadly this is what the necrons player wants is for your best unit to get tied up fighting them.

I've had games in the past against necrons where bringing a vindicator was a huge success. I had a game recently where my first shot killed 5 wraiths (he had a very poor roll). Given that it's instant death makes a big difference when you are just trying to get some damage through.

My spawn on the other had with nurgle mark which are a comparable cost get eaten alive by wraiths. They do much better against warriors at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Maybe you should start playing more Malestrom missions?

Maybe? Don't know but I'll keep it in mind anyway. Still not certain I'd enjoy objectives or be equipped to take them. (only two ObSec units if I bring my CAD, none whatsoever if it's just DWSF + RWSF)

Also, are we sure Dreadnoughts would be bad for this purpose? Sounds like they'd be well-equipped for the melee-abuse and unlike DW Knights they CAN sweep 'em. Then again I'm almost certainly missing something, just wanted to clarify.

As someone who plays mostly annihilation battles myself, it is nice to change it up and have an objective game.

 Konrax wrote:
A good friend of mine plays necrons and has serious problems with my other buddies space wolf lists.

He usually runs a very strong wolf star and 2x crusaders with an arjac terminator kill team and rune priest in terminator armour and then the other crusader with a bunch of blood claws, a terminator leader, and a rune priest.

He goes for endurance if he can and he just chews the necrons units up in melee.

Even his wraiths with the 4+ reanimation were wiped in a single round of combat (also due in part to enfeable landing.)

The only thing that seems to work well is hitting them obscenely hard over and over again.

This right here. My mate's spacewolves destroy me. Irrespective of what I play. He's made it an aggressive "oh shi" type of force.

Mind you I don't play with wraiths or tomb blades (mainly because wraiths are quite possibly the best, and crons in general are very very underpriced for what you get. So my relatively slow army gets decimated by wolves, I've also had some issues with Tau, because 1000 shots a turn can do that to you. Decurion out of the box is just silly. And to have a base unit with a 3+/4+ and essentially a 5+ FNP at the cost of 13 to 17 points per model is just looney, and to then give them a 4+ for being in Decurion, and add a cryptek and you've got a 4+ with a 4+ FNP against pretty much everything.

Crons are quite crap in combat, for example I had a 5 man squad overrun by 2 pathfinders :/

All you need to do is get in combat and you'll lay waste to them due to I1 or I2 and their respective WS. Sure you won't kill allot of them, but you will almost always be the one winning

 ThePolarBear wrote:
In my most recent game against a Necron buddy of mine I had a fair bit of success deep-striking several termie squads in behind his main forces to delay his advance and soak up a lot of fire. .

This right here is one of the best things to do when facing Necrons. Few armies can comfortably plan on destroying the robots from space so messing up their advance towards the objectives is essential. If your army feels weak against them play the mission and abandon all hope of actually destroying anything (but be happy when you do).

 ThePolarBear wrote:
I'll start by saying that I am also quite new to 40k, and even more so to da, but in my most recent game against a Necron buddy of mine I had a fair bit of success deep-striking several termie squads in behind his main forces to delay his advance and soak up a lot of fire. The twin-linked firing for the turn in which they deep strike is great for taking out something important like a Ghost Ark or lone ic, or just for putting some hurt on his main force. Also remember that anything that would cause id will change his 4+ rp to a 5+, so power fists are great. Good luck with your next game.

That's definitely something worth remembering. After all, I do have terminators at my disposal. I'll likely give this a whirl next time I face Necrons.

The last notable time I fought Necrons I just took a squad of TH/SS Terminators and they were able to eat the entire army pretty much. There wasn't much AP1/2 to take care of them and everything folded in close combat.

Took some advice here and there was actually able to take down the Necrons! Ignoring certain units, such as wraiths, and going straight for objectives worked like a charm. It was still a close game, but I was able to pull off the victory. Really goes to show that Necrons are beatable.

Power mauls and power spears. Give them to characters, profit.

Even three strength 6 ap4 attacks from a tac Sargent will swing the melee heavily in the marines favor. Added bonus that it crushes most xenos army's troop units as well so it isn't even list tailoring.

Awesome to hear that you beat those Necrons.

Have you considered the Dark Talon? The large blast template on the rift cannon (with a chance of creating a vortex rift) can be pretty devastating if you get large number of models beneath it.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Power mauls and power spears. Give them to characters, profit.

Even three strength 6 ap4 attacks from a tac Sargent will swing the melee heavily in the marines favor. Added bonus that it crushes most xenos army's troop units as well so it isn't even list tailoring.

Win combat and sweep the necrons.

If the necrons have fearless then you need to shoot them.