Right, this has been needed for a little while now.
Many of you know me, Master of Ordinance, just another Dakkanought whom stomps around these forums. Recently though I feel that I have been turning a little sour in my posts, especially here on the 40K section and especially towards Space Marines. Now obviously this has been causing a little strife and I guess that some of you are wondering why I am getting so bitter about several factions and about my own codex. Well, here it is:
As you all know I am a die hard Imperial Guard player. I love my Guard and the general aspect of them, the notion that against all the odds in a universe inhabited by genetically enginieered tank plate wearing superhumans, bioweapons, ancient terminator egyptians, Demons, super advanced cowfish and other nasties these regular men and women clad in simple armour and armed only with a cheap rifle, a few grenades and balls of pure steel volunteer to go out and fight for their people, their homes, their empire. The volunteer to be hurled through the warp to some back hole planet that noone has ever heard of before and fight and die for the emperor. The Guard are metal as hell.
But recently things have been changing. Being an Imperial Guard player has never really been easy. You have had to cope with the fact that most basic Infantry weapons will ignore your armour, the fact that your troops are not the best in the whole galaxy and the vulnerabilities to assault. There was also the issue of seeing the gunline army status removed entirely with the introduction of a certain new race (totally not looking at you Tau). But a good Guard player with a strong grasp of tactics could fight on and, with a bit of luck, stand a good chance of winning against other armies. The use of tanks to blitz the enemy off objectives and then sending Infantry up to claim them, combined arms tactics and the use of many amazing strategies that baffled opponents would carry you to victory.
But then things changed. 5th became 6th and then very rapidly 7th. In a single codex GW killed the tactical depth in 40K and the factors in winning a game went from 10% army list and 90% tactics too 50% army list, 50% tactics. Things where bad, but we in the Guard where able to hold on and keep going to an extent. Sure, we where playing with 5th edition codex but things could have been worse...... Spoke too soon.
The 6th edition Imperial Guard codex dropped and things went from bad to fubar overnight. Suddenly we had lost many useable units, being reduced down to a grand total of (arguably - some of these are situational/not too good) 6 selections that where actually worth the inordinate amount of points we where paying for them. Our tanks lost the Lumbering Behemoth rule and with it half of their firepower. Units which needed price drops where left standing as they where or even worse given a price hike/nerf. The outcome was bleak but worse was yet to come.
The Necrons codex dropped and with it began the (in)famous line of the 'Decurion style' codex. Swiftly following this came the Eldar and Space Marines with Adeptus Mechanicus trailing in their wake. Now winning a game is 80% army choice and 20% tactics. We in the Guard department where left in the dust. The Tau had taken our gunline, the idiot whom wrote our codex had taken our manoeuvrability and the Space Marines had taken our tank. we have nothing, seriously NOTHING. Playing the Imperial Guard went from being a challenge to a 'how long can I hold out before he feths me over'. Victories went from difficult to nigh on impossible. The learning curve for new IG players actually breached that of the Cryx in Warmachine in elevation.
Now that sounds bad right, but surely at a large and diverse club like the one that I attend there should be some whom play Orcs or Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard for me to get a fun game against? *bitter laughter*
Nope. There WAS another two Imperial Guard players. There WAS an Ork player. There WAS a Dark Eldar player. WAS.
As of the last count I am the only active Imperial Guard player in my club. There is one Sister of Battle player and he attends so infrequently that he may as well not be there. Now guess what all of the others play? We have:
More Space Marine players than can be counted
Several Dark Angels players
A Grey Knight player
A couple of Tyranid players
A few Chaos players... Whom now play vanilla Space Marines
A couple of Tyranid players
A member of the club management whom owns an entire Knight household with Adeptus Mechanicus and Skitarii supporting elements (the army looks epic though and is amazingly well painted) and is still expanding on it
A Spacewolf player
A Tau player
Of these my regular opponents are:
The Grey Knight player
A Ravenwing player
A Deathwing player
A certain Space Marine player whom loves to bring Primarchs (legal and homebrewed) to friendly games and has a habit of whining about my tanks being overpowered and broken
Now, can people see where my perspective is coming from? When I drop on to these forums and see a Space Marine player complaining about how his 3+ save is useless or how his tactical's are over priced I want to grab him by the collar and shake him whilst screaming "You think you have it bad? YOU THINK YOU HAVE IT BAD?! TRY PLAYING THE GUARD DAMNIT, AT LEAST YOU GET YOUR SAVES VS MOST SMALL ARMS FIRE!!!! When I see these threads where people want to buff the Rhino (an already amazingly good APC which wish my Imperial Guard had access too) still further I want to weep. When I see threads about Tau players wanting MOAR fancy shooty I just stare. Where I see said Tau players wanting to take even more tank and artillery I actually get really pissed, its like they want to strip everything that the Guard have and make it theirs. My guys have NOTHING which can compete with these codex's. Nothing that can counter these powerful units. Nothing which equals a formation.
Hell, even Tyranids are tough as they can bring Monstrous Creatures and, well, we know how THAT ends when placed against the Imperial Guard.
I have players whom have never even played using the Imperial Guard telling me that my Infantry are amazing and that my orders are broken despite the fact that it takes, on average, 200 lasgun shots to put down your regular vanilla 10 man Tactical squad or equivalent. I have a certain Space Marine players complaining that Imperial Guard orders are overpowered and should only be useable once per game because FRFSRF over two turns from a Veteran section with a Heavy bolter killed 5 Devestators. I have Marine and Marine derivative players, telling me that I rely too much on my tanks. What else am I supposed to rely on? Infantry? Like hell that ever works.
Its the same on here, we have Marine players wanting a Rhino to have more survivability than a Leman Russ on a Rhino. We have them wanting AV14 on their Predators. Predators which are already cheaper and faster than Leman Russ (The Russ can only move 6" a turn). We have Tau players wanting even more shooty stuff and artillery support.
Oh, and for a kicker we have the Space Marine players, and the players from the other meta codex's coming along and telling us that the Imperial Guard dont need formations that give us free stuff and dont need buffs to this and that.
You see, from my perspective the game stinks right now. Everything that my army does another army does better, and half the time those armies players want more.
In all honesty I would love to take a break from the game but I cant. Why not? Because 40K is the only game that is really played right now at my club. The Warmachine scene died off so my Cryx sit unused. The Darkage scene was, sadly, stillborn owning to some supply issues. I occasionally see Fantasy but the only real players right now are doing a campaign based off the End Times. AoS is.... Terrible. Infinity MIGHT be a way out but right now I am gauging the future of the scene before I invest in another game and I am trying to get the Bolt Action scene kickstarted.
Sorry for the large wall of text. I hope that this explains, at the very least, some of my bitterness.
On the bright side, Imperial Guard will soon get their codex, and if I were a betting man, I'd guess that the pendulum will finally swing in their favor. They are a faction that is ideal for Core-command-auxiliary formations, and if we're honest about it, GW has made a pretty good job of balancing post 2015 codex releases against each other.
I suspect there will be substantial formation bonuses that make Guard much more viable.
Incidentally, I am waiting for Guard to become better too -- I haven't worked on my IG for a really long time, and there are many kits waiting for my attention
Mantorok wrote: Have you considered getting a new army?
Like eldar or necrons?
Ugh no. I used (back in the day) to have a Space Marine army. I got rid of them. I also sold a load of Necrons I was given. I know that this may sound like Scrub talk but I just could not see myself playing them. They just felt.... Wrong form me.
@Talys: I hope so, the new codex can not be quick enough in coming.
Talys wrote: Well, or ally in some Space Marines, Imperial Knights, or Adeptus Mechanicus. Then you wouldn't have to replace your whole army
From what I've played against, Imperial Knights is a great supplement for IG.
It lets IK have some ObSec on the field without having to take too many knights, or taking a worse formation.
Also if you play IG, you know how to shoot blast around the board without killing your own guys.
I think the problem isn't that other armies do what you do better, cause every army is going to have it's specialty.
It's that your armies is weak in its own specialty.
Realistically, your army needs to either be able to tarpit better or its tanks need more upgrades/options.
actually the best option is to just make all the models in the cheaper in points cost. Fluffy and effective.
Sells models too.
IG is a fantastic army when combined with allies. Allies are quite essential in modern day 40K.
As I've mentioned in some other threads, I don't personally know a lot of people who play monocodex armies these days. When the option to ally and fix the possible caveats of our army is there, it's basically a person limiting his armies capabilities should he choose to play monocodex. Only if they are running a formation do I see people using a singular Codex.
There's a guard player in my group I've beaten once. And I've played 70 games of 7th edition now, reached that amount of games played with a match against Tau yesterday. Usually this guard player rolls with an Imperial Knight, a few Vendettas, and melta bristling veterans in Chimeras. Occasionally there's a Culexus Assassin or a LRBT for some fire support, and ofcourse, Wyverns. He occasionally makes a horde army and buffs the blobs with Space Marine Librarians, Blood Angels priests or whatnot.
Play another game. Made by a company that doesn't do "Flavor of the Month!" style releases where everyone else languishes with a gakky codex for years at a time.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:Play another game. Made by a company that doesn't do "Flavor of the Month!" style releases where everyone else languishes with a gakky codex for years at a time.
Try Infinity, get off GWs carousel of screw.
I am looking in to it, but after what happened to the Warmahordes scene in my area I want to monitor it before I commit time and money to another game. I have close to £130 of Cryx just sat there doing nothing after the local Warmachine scene crashed.
When I get a better budget I probably will though, and until then I am keeping an eye on the Infinity players so I can gauge whether or not to invest when the time comes.
Runic wrote:IG is a fantastic army when combined with allies. Allies are quite essential in modern day 40K.
As I've mentioned in some other threads, I don't personally know a lot of people who play monocodex armies these days. When the option to ally and fix the possible caveats of our army is there, it's basically a person limiting his armies capabilities should he choose to play monocodex. Only if they are running a formation do I see people using a singular Codex.
There's a guard player in my group I've beaten once. And I've played 70 games of 7th edition now, reached that amount of games played with a match against Tau yesterday. Usually this guard player rolls with an Imperial Knight, a few Vendettas, and melta bristling veterans in Chimeras. Occasionally there's a Culexus Assassin or a LRBT for some fire support, and ofcourse, Wyverns. He occasionally makes a horde army and buffs the blobs with Space Marine Librarians, Blood Angels priests or whatnot.
He does just fine, but he is a skilled player.
Sadly very few players at my club use allies. They dont need too and in all honesty a Codex should be able to stand alone. I do have a Vindicaire though.
I would love to get a Knight and some flyers and maybe some Wyverns but sadly they are out of my budget for the foreseeable future.
I'll just give the tau prespective for a moment, you get angry at us for "wanting even more toys", but honestly-we got very little.
Many of our units or weapons are simply pointless and don't do anything. railtech, stealthsuits, auxillary races, our tanks-all are quite ineffective.
The fact AM has it worse means not that others are in perfect shape.
Back to how to help YOU feel better about your army
The first and easy way-allies. I know its not what you want to hear, but it works. and its fluffy. guards call reinforcements-and being IoM you got a huge list to choose from to fill any hole you need.
The other option is the sneaky one.
Do the reverse of your local CSM players-and play chaos rules as count-as imperials.
What does it mean?
Forgeworld "renegades and heretics" lists-they don't have orders, but are FAR more flexible than AM codex is, unlock whole new strategies and do some better than codex AM (while worse at others)
Varks lists are especially potent in this, Ordenance Tyrant makes some of the more amazing "artillery overload" lists, especially with Purge list, while the Unending Host makes the ultimate "drown them in bodies" IG list.
The biggest downside of this path, is that it twists your allies-but if you run no allies anyway-it doesn't effect you.
They play a bit different, but if you like horde infantry, cheapness at the cost of low BS (get around with blast/template weapons), and general feel of "my guys suck, but I've got enough" that guard imposes-they are good.
And non-allied RnH are sure stronger than non-allied AM.
Beyond that, there are varius FW lists that are AM spinoff likes the death korps, who might strike your fancy, if their specialties are lined up with your playstyle.
master of ordinance wrote: I know that this may sound like Scrub talk but I just could not see myself playing them.
I don't think you need to go specifically to Sirlin's taxonomy to figure out what's going on here, I think you're just having a bit of a tantrum. One that's somewhat understandable, given the state of the game, but a tantrum nonetheless.
You've been offered plenty of possible solutions or work arounds, and you've rejected every one, mostly for reasons that boil down to "that's not what I want."
All I can do is point out that you cannot control what the people around you play, how competitively they build lists, or what the rules for IG and/or 40k in general are like. You can control what army you play, what game you play, and how you spend your hobby time.
Focusing on what you cannot control will always bring in negative emotions. Focusing on what you can control might take you out of your comfort zone, but might bring rewards as well.
I dislike allies as well, but luckily the army that called to me was Space Marines, so that's not generally an issue. However, if you had to get an ally, you couldn't go terribly wrong with an Imperial Knight or two - assuming that fits your budget. They're stellar models and many of their loadouts mesh quite well with an IG gunline.
That said, I strongly feel that your problem is not so much your army as your opponents'. Especially your one foe that brings homebrew characters and 30k Primarchs to "friendly" games. That is either massively misunderstanding the definition of "friendly" or he's a total toolbag. I don't know where you live exactly or how feasible it is but I would look to find another gaming group if at all possible because it sounds like your friends are totally unwilling to alter their playstyle for the sake of creating a fun gaming space for all.
master of ordinance wrote: I know that this may sound like Scrub talk but I just could not see myself playing them.
I don't think you need to go specifically to Sirlin's taxonomy to figure out what's going on here, I think you're just having a bit of a tantrum. One that's somewhat understandable, given the state of the game, but a tantrum nonetheless.
You've been offered plenty of possible solutions or work arounds, and you've rejected every one, mostly for reasons that boil down to "that's not what I want."
All I can do is point out that you cannot control what the people around you play, how competitively they build lists, or what the rules for IG and/or 40k in general are like. You can control what army you play, what game you play, and how you spend your hobby time.
Focusing on what you cannot control will always bring in negative emotions. Focusing on what you can control might take you out of your comfort zone, but might bring rewards as well.
Its not just that I do not want them, I can not physically afford to start a whole new allied army and purchase the latest meta unit. Hell I cant even afford a Knight. I sure as hell can not afford to drop this army and start a whole new one from scratch. I have to work within my budget.
So what about the suggestion of using the rules of renegades/death korps/etc?
You can probably run much of the same army, just more effectively. I doubt your owned/used ratio is 100%-and these alternate lists may allow you to field your own army in a better way.
BoomWolf wrote: So what about the suggestion of using the rules of renegades/death korps/etc?
You can probably run much of the same army, just more effectively. I doubt your owned/used ratio is 100%-and these alternate lists may allow you to field your own army in a better way.
I am looking at them and they do sound like a possible alternative
I do know of one version of the game where the Guard do just fine; Kill Team!
Seriously though, try doing something new in 40k. New missions, new versions. Try to come up with new ways of using you Guard not as a tactical force, but as a story-telling force. Get together with friends and start a campaign. You're the beleaguered Planetary Defence Force, and you need help. Try other styles of games, like Kill Team. Seriously, a full platoon is actually scary to fight against in Kill Team.
seriously? This sucks. I just got into this, and I fell in love with IG for the same reason. I discounted them because of that whole "commissars that shoot their own side" garbage. If I didn't have to deal with that, I would play them in a heartbeat.
Priest Foxley wrote: seriously? This sucks. I just got into this, and I fell in love with IG for the same reason. I discounted them because of that whole "commissars that shoot their own side" garbage. If I didn't have to deal with that, I would play them in a heartbeat.
It's fairly simple to field an IG/AM army without Commissars.
To be honest, I felt the same as you did about my guard...then I decided to actually think and do something about it. And now, given that every single game I can go toe to toe with and beat every single army in the game (my winrate isn't exactly high against wraithknight spam but I HAVE beaten them, killing three WKs in a single game)
As people have said, allies are pretty damn good with guard, but not in the "shoot now I have to buy 10000$ of new models" no. My guard went from doormat to force to be reckoned with with 3 models: Culexus Assassin, Coteaz, Regular Inquisitor. That, and a classic guard list with an infantry line, Leman Russ tanks, and artillery can slug it out with whatever I want.
In a lot of ways I feel bad for the whole "scrub" attitude but god damn is it frustrating in person. There are always people who, when GW says "here have a new edition, TOYS FOR EVERYONE!!" Will say "no, my preconceived notions and personal code of restraints prevents me from using those toys, I refuse!" And then they will sit in the corner complaining that those toys are overpowered.
"The psychic phase is so broken and my psykers suck! Invisibility is OP!" -which is why you can take super versatile inquisitorial psykers or an assassin that straight turns off all psychic powers.
"Everyone's got a whole bunch of cool detachments!" Which is why all the IG forgeworld stuff is now legal.
List of army detachments you can add to IG with the purchase of one (1) single model kit, and what they do to power multiply the Guard:
Inquisition: Protection from deep strike alphastrike tactics. Blast weapon power boost. Cheap, efficient psykers. Cheap chimeras. Access to the Land Raider and Rhino (SURPRISE, you DO have that!). Cheap power multipliers for infantry squads.
Assassins: Powerful melee threats. Anti-psychic shutdown. Sniper that actually works in a satisfying manner. Board control through infiltration.
Skiitari: (yes, one detachment=1 box of troops) access to awesome special weapons that just love being stuck in a chimera. Infiltrators that debuff enemy close combat units. A sweet points efficient dedicated anti air tank or anti tank tank.
Knights: small-points customizable Superheavies, for when the IG's half a dozen don't do it for ya. Stomp, D-weapons, absolutely loves being screened by conscript blobs.
All those armies aren't "play in place of guard" they're "play with guard to multiply guards' strengths and mitigate their weaknesses. A guy at my club plays an absolutely brutal Guard-Inquisition-Skiitari list that has less than 500 points of the latter two (one inquisitor 3 min-sized skiitari units) and watching enemy Death Stars try to attack his blob is god damn hilarious - Strength down, toughness down, take a blind check, now roll for psychotrokes, now I get to reroll to hit and to wound, oh you paid how much for your T3 Thunderwolves?
Yes. Guard does not have a post-decurion Dex. Join the club-3/4ths of the armies in the game are in it, and we've been waiting 4 months because of age of Sigmar. No, I'm not going to join in your pity party.
Priest Foxley wrote: seriously? This sucks. I just got into this, and I fell in love with IG for the same reason. I discounted them because of that whole "commissars that shoot their own side" garbage. If I didn't have to deal with that, I would play them in a heartbeat.
It's fairly simple to field an IG/AM army without Commissars.
yeah, but I was under the impression that IG infantry without that morale bonus from summary execution was asking for trouble.
Sadly, I kind of agree with you about the game as a whole (I know, this coming from a Necron player). This game is just....I don't even know anymore. I love it, don't get me wrong. But I hate the power creep.
I personally hated the 5th edition Necron codex for numerous, similar reasons to you not liking the Guard one. What I did to cope was start a second army and mess around with them and only played Necrons occasionally. Then, my new codex came out, and I've barely touched my Nids. I can foresee the next Guard codex being epic, and until then, you just gotta hold on!
Priest Foxley wrote: seriously? This sucks. I just got into this, and I fell in love with IG for the same reason. I discounted them because of that whole "commissars that shoot their own side" garbage. If I didn't have to deal with that, I would play them in a heartbeat.
Priests do the same thing but slightly different for the same points. Or just go mech guard where you don't use either.
Priest Foxley wrote: seriously? This sucks. I just got into this, and I fell in love with IG for the same reason. I discounted them because of that whole "commissars that shoot their own side" garbage. If I didn't have to deal with that, I would play them in a heartbeat.
The Summary Execution rule is optional - you can choose not to shoot your own guys. Though one Conscript's life vs the whole unit getting swept in close combat? I know which one is the correct choice
As for the OP, maybe you just need a break? Take some time out to avoid burn out. Catch up on some painting, finish some conversions, surely there's something hobby related you can do?
Dont expect to see orks make a resurgence anytime soon. They just recently recieved the worst codex they have ever had. Playing for fun with nifty conversions is nice and all, but if you are interested in winning at all, you have an uphill battle. Dont think I have beat the new necrons with my orks yet. Or eldar for that matter.
Orock wrote: Dont expect to see orks make a resurgence anytime soon. They just recently recieved the worst codex they have ever had. Playing for fun with nifty conversions is nice and all, but if you are interested in winning at all, you have an uphill battle. Dont think I have beat the new necrons with my orks yet. Or eldar for that matter.
Funny how they have the advantage against both in competitive play. Green Tide and D-weapon Eldar is why there have been practically no Necrons in top tables at recent tourneys, and ork MSU can clobber Eldar, especially if the Eldar player is using Warhost.
My current "I feel like being mean" ork list features two CAD detachments, every one of which has every slot filled, and each troops slot brings a Trukk. But my usual Blitz Brigade list has no trouble against 95% of lists out there. It's just specifically power gaming Eldar lists I feel the need to take the jerk list.
Priest Foxley wrote: seriously? This sucks. I just got into this, and I fell in love with IG for the same reason. I discounted them because of that whole "commissars that shoot their own side" garbage. If I didn't have to deal with that, I would play them in a heartbeat.
It'll come up in maybe one out of ten games you play, and then it's a 2/3 chance you take a lasgun away. If you're that worried about losing a single guardsman then you made the right choice playing something else. I'd suggest Necrons.
I too am feeling the IG burn. If it's a maelstrom game the best I can hope for is to score at least one or two points and avoid a downtrail. My other army is CSM and even that dex feels playable compared to IGatm.
Priest Foxley wrote: seriously? This sucks. I just got into this, and I fell in love with IG for the same reason. I discounted them because of that whole "commissars that shoot their own side" garbage. If I didn't have to deal with that, I would play them in a heartbeat.
It'll come up in maybe one out of ten games you play, and then it's a 2/3 chance you take a lasgun away. If you're that worried about losing a single guardsman then you made the right choice playing something else. I'd suggest Necrons.
I too am feeling the IG burn. If it's a maelstrom game the best I can hope for is to score at least one or two points and avoid a downtrail. My other army is CSM and even that dex feels playable compared to IGatm.
Take some allied infiltrator units to establish board control while you move your army into position and hammer the opposing line? Take some force multipliers to turn a large blob into a giant Obsec tarpit? Use your 25 point upgrade that grants you 2+ reserve rolls to bring in some deep strikers/out flankers?
Here, have an exalt.
Yo're right. As a marine player I watched the threads that popped up last month, either the one of the "useless" 3+ and the "Make the Rhino AV14/14/14 HP8" .
In an ideal world everyone can play everything without having a 90/10 percentage against him, but sadly GW decided otherwise.
I respect your decision to continue playing Guard and send my kudos for your perseverance, and I understand your bitterness (as an MTG player I wanted to play not-top-dog decks, and I was regularly roflstomped by my friends' GP Top8 netdeck.
Ultimately I stopped playing almost altogether (still keep a couple cheap decks to play with my GF).
Hold on, better times will surely be ahead. Meanwhile you can try to talk to your gaming club, to "nerf" your opponents' lists or give you some sort of balancing advantage (like 100 points in 1850 games or so). Or maybe you can try to promote 2v2 scenarios, as to get your weakness balanced with some OPness from other factions.
I'm sure you already thought to do these things, but I wanted to help you enjoy this beautiful hobby.
Keep the honor of the Imperial Guard high! For the Emperor and for Mankind!
Priest Foxley wrote: seriously? This sucks. I just got into this, and I fell in love with IG for the same reason. I discounted them because of that whole "commissars that shoot their own side" garbage. If I didn't have to deal with that, I would play them in a heartbeat.
It'll come up in maybe one out of ten games you play, and then it's a 2/3 chance you take a lasgun away. If you're that worried about losing a single guardsman then you made the right choice playing something else. I'd suggest Necrons.
I too am feeling the IG burn. If it's a maelstrom game the best I can hope for is to score at least one or two points and avoid a downtrail. My other army is CSM and even that dex feels playable compared to IGatm.
Take some allied infiltrator units to establish board control while you move your army into position and hammer the opposing line? Take some force multipliers to turn a large blob into a giant Obsec tarpit? Use your 25 point upgrade that grants you 2+ reserve rolls to bring in some deep strikers/out flankers?
To answer the first point: Why should I have to take allies to stand a chance? I chose to play Imperial Guard, not min Guard max drop-pod faux-marines. Who do Necrons need to ally with? Apart from doubling-down on douchebaggery with WWP who are Eldar required to ally with?
The second point: Giant obsec tarpit can be blown through fairly easily by many units these days. The damage a single squad of marine bikers can do to 30-50 guardsmen is disgusting, incidentally the bikers can be obsec themselves and a 50 man squad is laughable to maneuver.
The third point: You need to pass a Ld check on Ld7 to get that ability. You don't just get it for nothing. Hypothetically though, which DS/outflankers would you suggest? The 12ppm scions with T3 4+? Or the scout sentinel with AV10 2HP open topped?
This is all assuming your hand-wavium and overly vague post wasn't the a throwaway troll post it appears to be
If you just scroll up a wee bit on the first page, you'll see my big list 'o imperial guard force multiplying allies that cost a minimum of a single model or kit.
As for board control infiltrators? I use a Culexus assassin, who is a wonderful wall of "feth you" to any army that wants to make themselves all beefy with psykers and who is seriously easy to hide entirely out of LOS. I supplement him with a minimum squad of ratlings, and I find their 30 points justified purely if I can get someone to waste time on them. I often don't even bother shooting with them, I just sit on an objective marker, they're just there until the rest of my force catches up.
As for tarpitting, I've got two guys in my blob that make them the absolute bomb at that-Inquisitor Coteaz and a regular ordo Xenos, who I take just for the grenades and servo skulls. I've you've never played an IG army with servo skulls, let me tell you that's 9 points you're never going to want to go without again-1D6 scatter is incredible for guard. I've got one buddy who uses a similar tactic minus Coteaz and with a minimum sized Skiitari force, he brings a unit of Sicarian infiltrators to double the enemy melee debuff. Watching a Thunderwolf Deathstar get splattered by his platoon is hilarious.
These are not allies that make it so you're not playing guard, these are allies that make your guard amazing. There's a difference, and the difference is one that leaves you saying "holy gak, I've never seen my guardsmen do THAT before!" Switching off an enemy deathstar's invisibility then flattening them with a Battlecannon that literally can not miss is a sweet, sweet feeling, as is downing a wraithknight with 150 rending lasgun shots, reducing space marines to T2 Jelly in close combat, and knocking tau tanks out of the sky with twin-linked ignores cover Lascannons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Deep strikers? Id probablt use Tempestus if I really wanted them. 12 ppm is justified if i can have them only scatter D6 onto the objectives. As for the MOF, what do you want for 25 points? If you're that bothered by the ld7 check, go for an ADL with comms relay instead. Your tanks will love having cover to hide behind and an extra bit of drop melta insurance, and you'll get 3+ rerollable reserves. I personally prefer the MOF because I like screwing with my opponents reserves just as much as I like helping my own, but if reliability is your thing here, have yet another option.
I dunno. I've always been surprised how long it can take for a unit to cut free of a tarpit; the Imperial Guard can do tarpits better than almost anyone.
Conscript Platoons with a Priest are incredible. Regular guardsmen are.... so so, I'll admit.
But you can expect to see guard improved. Even now there are things floating around - like the Steel Host - and the Guard can easily be improved by relatively cheap ($ as well as points) bolt-ons - Inquisitors are superb platoon leaders, and priests are fantastic. For that matter, even some marine one-man models (like azrael) are worth their weight in gold.
The trick to success with guard infantry is a mix of blobs and detached squads - no matter how good you are, you can't kill more than one squad with shooting, and guard can form screens that you can only get past by charging them.
I play Tzeentch primarily and try to avoid heldrake spam and such and can at least hold my own enough to have a fun game despite not winning too often.
Necrons are very tough, but I have beat them!
I can't wait to see a new guard codex come out because I want to see them played more, they are a fun team to play against.
As has been said, it can take a couple of models to make a difference.
Use tanks, try a Techpriest.
Drop a Ministorum Priest in a front-line unit.
Primaris Psyker in the command Chimera.
Or, it only takes 3 models to get Harlequins as allies.
I sometimes like to see some variation on the table, just as something different.
mathaius90 wrote:Here, have an exalt.
Yo're right. As a marine player I watched the threads that popped up last month, either the one of the "useless" 3+ and the "Make the Rhino AV14/14/14 HP8" .
In an ideal world everyone can play everything without having a 90/10 percentage against him, but sadly GW decided otherwise.
I respect your decision to continue playing Guard and send my kudos for your perseverance, and I understand your bitterness (as an MTG player I wanted to play not-top-dog decks, and I was regularly roflstomped by my friends' GP Top8 netdeck.
Ultimately I stopped playing almost altogether (still keep a couple cheap decks to play with my GF).
Hold on, better times will surely be ahead. Meanwhile you can try to talk to your gaming club, to "nerf" your opponents' lists or give you some sort of balancing advantage (like 100 points in 1850 games or so). Or maybe you can try to promote 2v2 scenarios, as to get your weakness balanced with some OPness from other factions.
I'm sure you already thought to do these things, but I wanted to help you enjoy this beautiful hobby.
Keep the honor of the Imperial Guard high! For the Emperor and for Mankind!
Thanks man if feels good to hear some support from a Marine player.
This guy gets it. Stop hating options and freaking use them...
The problem is that this is essentially a derivative of the Oberoni Fallacy
Spoiler:
Oberoni Fallacy
The Oberoni Fallacy (also called the Rule 0 Fallacy) is the erroneous argument that the rules of a game aren't flawed because they can be ignored, or one or more "house rules" can be made as exceptions.
The argument is logically unsound, because it supposes something isn't broken if it can be fixed. If the rule is not broken, it shouldn't need to be fixed.
The original post[edit]
The Oberoni Fallacy is named after user "Oberoni" who made the following post to the Wizards D&D forum on July 23, 2002:
This my my take on the issue.
Let's say Bob the board member makes the assertion: "There is an inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue with Rule X."
Several correct replies can be given:
"I agree, there is an inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue with Rule X."
"I agree, and it is easily solvable by changing the following part of Rule X."
"I disagree, you've merely misinterpreted part of Rule X. If you reread this part of Rule X, you will see there is no inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue."
Okay, I hope you're with me so far. There is, however, an incorrect reply:
"There is no inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue with Rule X, because you can always Rule 0 the inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue."
Now, this incorrect reply does not in truth agree with or dispute the original statement in any way, shape, or form.
It actually contradicts itself--the first part of the statement says there is no problem, while the last part proposes a generic fix to the "non-problem."
It doesn't follow the rules of debate and discussion, and thus should never be used.
Simple enough.
The problem is that you say the inbalance in the codex can be fixed by including allies to cover the blank spots thus meaning that there is no weakness. But this need to include allies is in itself an assertion that there is something really really wrong with the codex.
That aside I am not unwilling to avoid the allies Matrix, although it may not be my favoured choice. I am quite happy to use it and indeed I am already using it with the inclusion of my Vindicaire Assassin and my plans to acquire some other Assassins.
I also have some Chaos marines that I am trying to get build into an allied detachment (Lucius the Eternal, some noise marines, 2 Spawn and 6 Terminators). I have accepted that I need too. However I just can not afford to purchase some of the more needed things such as a Lance of Knights or some Mechanicus.
My point is, though, that it feels wrong. The Vindicaire is good and fits into the army well but having a bunch of Chaos Marines in with my guard just does not feel right. I accept that I need to but it is not what I favour to use.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Skinnereal wrote: As has been said, it can take a couple of models to make a difference.
Use tanks, try a Techpriest.
Drop a Ministorum Priest in a front-line unit.
Primaris Psyker in the command Chimera.
Or, it only takes 3 models to get Harlequins as allies.
Ah yes the Tau. They pretty much stole the AMs thunder, and even THEY are not doing too hot right now.
I totally understand your love of tactics, and your disappointments with your codex ( which lets be honest here) is pretty outdated and overcosted.
Our best player ( and the winner of our local tourney) won by using a completely mechanized list with coteaz, vets, basilisks, and I think a Fellblade. Its not that his units were super good ( they are pretty much just average), but he was really good at setting up firing lanes. I think playing guard gives you a greater appreciation for the tactics of this game that other armies don't have because they have it so rough. ( I am not saying L2P btw, I'm saying I admire the perseverance of the players who have less than optimal codices, and make good use of them anyways).
I actually would be totally for giving guardsman rhinos btw.
I am honestly going to go ahead and say wait for the new codex, becuase there is probaby going to be some formation where you get free chimeras or respawning platoons or something. GW seems to be rolling that way nowadays.
Hang in there bro ( or sis) and keep the faith.
The Emperor protects.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit. Curse you and your stupid link lol. I was trying to look at the dakka post in your sig, when suddenly a skeleton dude appears on my screen.
- doesn't seem to DTW ever
- ignores DS units for so long that foot-guard have enough time to reach them
- has no invul or cover on their 'deathstar'
- allows OotF ability to auto-pass
- isn't aware that moving close to a skull removes it
I would encourage you to do so. I know you say you haven't the budget to rebuild a new army (believe me I ****ing sympathise).
But guard have the edge that they can take odd one-model characters and it's remarkable how much difference they can make for a few quid and 50 points or so.
Priest - cheap as hell, make the unit fearless and can potentially give them armour save rerolls in assaults. Takes a conscript unit from something that'll be broken and run down in one round of combat to a unit that will fight to the last man - and can often hold up a key unit for two full game turns or more.
Inquisitor - Front Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! isn't broken by any means. A major issue is passing the leadership check. But an Inquisitor with Psyker and Prescience not only makes them LD10 Stubborn but also gives them twin-linked.
Tech-priest - A Guard tank is nice. A guard tank with Power of the Machine Spirit is awesome, because you have cheap sponson heavy weapons you generally can't use because of the big guns on the best leman russ versions.
What are you using in your list at the moment?
Also - as noted, consider the alternate 'flavours' of guard: Death Korps, D-99, Tyrant's Legion and (if the Horus Heresy is an option) Imperialis Militia. You might find one of the guard sub-versions more to your taste.
I hope it doesn't seem like I'm rubbing it in you're face or anything, but I would lose all the time with guard in 5 and 6th but now I'm winning against broken lists like smashfether and even 30k ordo reducer. Yeah it's not a win every time army but that's the fun. Bring some flyers and deathstrike and I'm sure you're luck can turn around before the new codex drops!
tau tse tung wrote: I hope it doesn't seem like I'm rubbing it in you're face or anything, but I would lose all the time with guard in 5 and 6th but now I'm winning against broken lists like smashfether and even 30k ordo reducer. Yeah it's not a win every time army but that's the fun. Bring some flyers and deathstrike and I'm sure you're luck can turn around before the new codex drops!
tau tse tung wrote:I hope it doesn't seem like I'm rubbing it in you're face or anything, but I would lose all the time with guard in 5 and 6th but now I'm winning against broken lists like smashfether and even 30k ordo reducer. Yeah it's not a win every time army but that's the fun. Bring some flyers and deathstrike and I'm sure you're luck can turn around before the new codex drops!
Good luck from a fellow guardsman!
Thanks man, want to swap opponents?
locarno24 wrote:
What are you using in your list at the moment?
Tank commander in Battletank with coaxial HS, extra armour, armoured track guards, anti grenade mesh, camo netting, recovery gear and artificer hull
Battletank with coaxial HS, pintle HS, extra armour, armoured track guards, anti grenade mesh, camo netting, recovery gear and artificer hull
Eradicator with coaxial HS, extra armour, armoured track guards, anti grenade mesh, camo netting, recovery gear and artificer hull
Exterminator with pintle HS and Recovery Gear, possibly camo netting if the points allow it
Exterminator with pintle HS and Recovery Gear, possibly camo netting if the points allow it
Thunderer with camo gear, firebarrels, pintle HS and recovery gear
Deimos pattern Destroyer (not technically IG I know but I am damned if I am paying 40 points more for less BS and only 1/3 of the shots with 1 point worse AP) with camo netting and a pintle mount
this is the basis of my list and I add and remove units when I need them. I have 2 extra HB veteran sections, a Shadowswrd chassis, a Rapier Laser Destroyer, a Lord Commissar, 2 Commissars, a Vindicaire and a few other units.
You don't have to do anything. At all. "Sit there and remain unhappy" is an option-it is in fact option 1, zero change.
Option 2 is to make some changes. Here, let me show you the easiest one.
Take your Primaris Psyker model. You ever use him? 50 points, force staff, divination. Not awful. But not the best.
Now say "you are an ordo Xenos inquisitor psyker."
What changed? Zero dollars were spent. At this point he even costs the same points. What'd he get?
-Stat buffs are nice. He's up to LD10 and stubborn, that's pretty fething sweet. Got a force sword instead of a staff, better WS/BS. Also, any doctrine he wants, that's kind of fun.
-Servo skulls. 9 points for 3 12" bubbles that make anything that scatters roll one less D6. I'll let you figure out what that does for the guard.
-Rad and/or Psychotroke grenades. -1T to the enemy unit charging you, or a great anti assault random effect. Or both. They aren't expensive.
And he gives you access to:
-New special characters. Coteaz is the best in a blob. Skyhammer what? If you like the grim dark meat grinder aspect of ig krazypantsoff is hilarious.
-Rhinos, land raiders, or just discount chimeras. You want em? You got em. Take two.
And you get all that for the low price of...nothing. Zero effort. A google search and a name change for one model.
the_scotsman wrote: You don't have to do anything. At all. "Sit there and remain unhappy" is an option-it is in fact option 1, zero change.
Option 2 is to make some changes. Here, let me show you the easiest one.
Take your Primaris Psyker model. You ever use him? 50 points, force staff, divination. Not awful. But not the best.
Now say "you are an ordo Xenos inquisitor psyker."
What changed? Zero dollars were spent. At this point he even costs the same points. What'd he get?
-Stat buffs are nice. He's up to LD10 and stubborn, that's pretty fething sweet. Got a force sword instead of a staff, better WS/BS. Also, any doctrine he wants, that's kind of fun.
-Servo skulls. 9 points for 3 12" bubbles that make anything that scatters roll one less D6. I'll let you figure out what that does for the guard.
-Rad and/or Psychotroke grenades. -1T to the enemy unit charging you, or a great anti assault random effect. Or both. They aren't expensive.
And he gives you access to:
-New special characters. Coteaz is the best in a blob. Skyhammer what? If you like the grim dark meat grinder aspect of ig krazypantsoff is hilarious.
-Rhinos, land raiders, or just discount chimeras. You want em? You got em. Take two.
And you get all that for the low price of...nothing. Zero effort. A google search and a name change for one model.
the_scotsman wrote: You don't have to do anything. At all. "Sit there and remain unhappy" is an option-it is in fact option 1, zero change.
Option 2 is to make some changes. Here, let me show you the easiest one.
Take your Primaris Psyker model. You ever use him? 50 points, force staff, divination. Not awful. But not the best.
Now say "you are an ordo Xenos inquisitor psyker."
What changed? Zero dollars were spent. At this point he even costs the same points. What'd he get?
-Stat buffs are nice. He's up to LD10 and stubborn, that's pretty fething sweet. Got a force sword instead of a staff, better WS/BS. Also, any doctrine he wants, that's kind of fun.
-Servo skulls. 9 points for 3 12" bubbles that make anything that scatters roll one less D6. I'll let you figure out what that does for the guard.
-Rad and/or Psychotroke grenades. -1T to the enemy unit charging you, or a great anti assault random effect. Or both. They aren't expensive.
And he gives you access to:
-New special characters. Coteaz is the best in a blob. Skyhammer what? If you like the grim dark meat grinder aspect of ig krazypantsoff is hilarious.
-Rhinos, land raiders, or just discount chimeras. You want em? You got em. Take two.
And you get all that for the low price of...nothing. Zero effort. A google search and a name change for one model.
Technically stuff like antigrenade mesh and artificer hull are armoured battlegroup only, but if your opponent's okay with it, hey.
I also don't think a regular battletank has the option of a co-axial mount.
Anyway.
My comment: You're taking a lot of toys you don't really need. Imperial guardsmen are.....not exactly specialists, but they're not tough enough or good enough to be generalists. Arm them for one job and if they get caught in the wrong situation....so sorry, lads, but you're always expendable.
The veterans are a good example. A squad of veterans with a heavy bolter is not bad antipersonnel firepower, and dug into cover with forward sentries is hard to kill off.
But for the same reason, you don't want to come out of cover. So those meltaguns are going to be sitting there on the off chance of a tank wandering into range. Which it probably won't unless it's a dreadnought which will charge you and murder them in assaults. Meltaguns are good - but only if you have a way of getting them into range reliably.
Equally, 10 krak grenades don't provide enough close-quarter antitank for me to want to spend points on them.
a few sets of grenades in a blob-ed platoon, maybe. But not on ten dudes.
The thing is - taking those three upgrades off (if you've got enough lasgun models to fill the gaps) racks you up 80 points - enough for another squad or character somewhere,
Equally, you've laden your army with similarly so-so upgrades.
Camo-netting is a good buy for a guard tank, but track guards, recovery gear and fire barrels are all points you don't need to spend. Exen extra armour isn't that important - as a heavy tank, you can't outrun an assault unit that's getting close, and your job is to sit there shelling things; movement is largely irrelevant.
Deimos pattern Destroyer (not technically IG I know but I am damned if I am paying 40 points more for less BS and only 1/3 of the shots with 1 point worse AP) with camo netting and a pintle mount
The destroyer tank hunter was always the Vanquisher's poor cousin anyway. But you can't take a space marine tank and put camo netting on it - that's an Imperial Guard upgrade and one that's unique to them (for a reason - it's bloody amazing).
Essentially, try going through your army with a savage scalpel and cut off everything not strictly necessary. You will never stand up to marines man-to-man in a fair fight. You win by having more men, more guns and more tanks, not by individual superiority.
My thoughts:
Tank commander in Battletank with camo netting
Battletank with camo netting
Eradicator with camo netting
(frankly I'd use it as a third leman russ)
Company Command Section
Bolt Pistol
MoO (you've no reserves and no big blobs needing orders, so the unit isn't that critical.....so do you really need a medic?)
Veterans
HB Forward Sentries
(good cover save and anti-personnel fire. Infantry kill infantry, tanks kill tanks)
Veterans
HB Forward Sentries
Veterans
HB Forward Sentries
Veterans
HB Forward Sentries
Exterminator with pintle HS
Exterminator with pintle HS (Okay, sometimes tanks kill infantry too)
Thunderer with pintle heavy stubber (it's a short ranged tank so it'll have to advance out of cover - so leave the netting at home)
Deimos pattern Destroyer
By a conservative estimate, that's freed up somewhere in the 200-300 points bracket - that's a full 50 man platoon with a priest to make them fearless, or a pair of battle tanks.....or whatever.
In your case, it's the Rapier Laser Destroyer and both veteran squads, and possibly the vindicere as well.
Or, it's 300 points off the size of the enemy army you're facing. Try stripping stuff out and playing smaller games.
I would encourage you to do so. I know you say you haven't the budget to rebuild a new army (believe me I ****ing sympathise).
But guard have the edge that they can take odd one-model characters and it's remarkable how much difference they can make for a few quid and 50 points or so.
Priest - cheap as hell, make the unit fearless and can potentially give them armour save rerolls in assaults. Takes a conscript unit from something that'll be broken and run down in one round of combat to a unit that will fight to the last man - and can often hold up a key unit for two full game turns or more.
Inquisitor - Front Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! isn't broken by any means. A major issue is passing the leadership check. But an Inquisitor with Psyker and Prescience not only makes them LD10 Stubborn but also gives them twin-linked.
Tech-priest - A Guard tank is nice. A guard tank with Power of the Machine Spirit is awesome, because you have cheap sponson heavy weapons you generally can't use because of the big guns on the best leman russ versions.
What are you using in your list at the moment?
Also - as noted, consider the alternate 'flavours' of guard: Death Korps, D-99, Tyrant's Legion and (if the Horus Heresy is an option) Imperialis Militia. You might find one of the guard sub-versions more to your taste.
Conscripts with priest and allied Azriel for 4++ rerolling is a really popular strategy.
It just sounds like the worst tarpit to get caught in lol.
The thing that I find is that a lot of my opponents are coming towards me - vehicles and all. Hence the Melta guns. Honestly I once had two of them save my bacon by obliterating an undamaged Land Raider that got close to my lines. Both hit, both penetrated and both rolled a 6 for the damage result. I bathed in my opponents butthurt whining (yes, apparently Veterans with Melta are 'cheese').
Konrax wrote: Conscripts with priest and allied Azriel for 4++ rerolling is a really popular strategy.
It just sounds like the worst tarpit to get caught in lol.
Wait, rerolling? I knew about Azrael getting a blob 4++ and Fearless, but not about anything making that save reroll.
That actually gives them a better invulnerable than Storm Shield Terminators! :O
Yeah, that might be helpful. Then again if you wanted Azrael you'd need a Dark Angels CAD, which in turn requires an HQ of some description and two squads of Scouts or Tactical Marines. Or playing doubles with one of the Dark Angels players if one of those guys/gals own him.
Konrax wrote: Conscripts with priest and allied Azriel for 4++ rerolling is a really popular strategy.
It just sounds like the worst tarpit to get caught in lol.
Wait, rerolling? I knew about Azrael getting a blob 4++ and Fearless, but not about anything making that save reroll.
That actually gives them a better invulnerable than Storm Shield Terminators! :O
Yeah, that might be helpful. Then again if you wanted Azrael you'd need a Dark Angels CAD, which in turn requires an HQ of some description and two squads of Scouts or Tactical Marines. Or playing doubles with one of the Dark Angels players if one of those guys/gals own him.
Just take them as an allied force and you only need 1 troop.
The priest gives the reroll and azreal gives the 4++ to the blob.
That unit will tie up most things for an entire game assuming azreal isn't challenged to death
Opponents coming towards you is the best place for IG to be. That means you can set up a 24"-12" kill zone for the nastiest stuff and once that's taken care of, you spend the game mopping up.
Here's my procedure against pod alphastrike and fast assault Deathstar styled lists:
-Step 1, tactical objective placement. I don't want midfield objectives, I want edge objectives. But a good fast assault/mobile opponent is going to want midfield objectives as much as possible. So at that point I place objectives as near my deployment zone as I can while still blocking off midfield placement. You can use the "12 inches from another objective" rule to keep your opponent away from the middle of a board. A setup the guard doesn't like to see is like a division sign-one in each deployment zone, lots in the middle. That's bad for you. You want more like a "6" on a D6. 3 towards one board half, 3 towards another-even if they're not as far back as you'd like, your opponent has to hang back a little bit if he wants to hold the whole "home field".
-Step 2, deployment. Culexus always infiltrates out of LOS and across from the enemy Death Star. If they're psychic, hell give them enough pause to let me get to turn 2 and obliterate them. If they're not, he's a melee tarpit with a good AP2 shooting attack. I often reserve my Pask and Pals if there's a significant alphastrike potential like a Skyhammer on the field. My Coteaz blob is the only viable target I want to leave for those guys, maybe even my min sized fearless conscript blob. Then Pask can show up when the enemy is in my face and say here, have a million rending shots and a Battlecannon. Usually, when he arrives the enemy has just got finished carving through my whopping 75 points of conscripts and they're sitting there with zero psychic protection out of their transport. Or, they're still hanging out across the board not doing anything useful, which is fine by me.
Step 3, play the game. Honestly this part has the least important decision making. Deployment is where over half of the significant game changing mistakes are made in 40k.
Konrax wrote: Conscripts with priest and allied Azriel for 4++ rerolling is a really popular strategy.
It just sounds like the worst tarpit to get caught in lol.
Wait, rerolling? I knew about Azrael getting a blob 4++ and Fearless, but not about anything making that save reroll.
That actually gives them a better invulnerable than Storm Shield Terminators! :O
Yeah, that might be helpful. Then again if you wanted Azrael you'd need a Dark Angels CAD, which in turn requires an HQ of some description and two squads of Scouts or Tactical Marines. Or playing doubles with one of the Dark Angels players if one of those guys/gals own him.
Just take them as an allied force and you only need 1 troop.
The priest gives the reroll and azreal gives the 4++ to the blob.
That unit will tie up most things for an entire game assuming azreal isn't challenged to death
What, in a unit that has at least five guys JUST there to accept challenges? Good luck.
As a side note, this is why I love the divination power that gives a 4++. Enemy big bad monster unit charges into my 20-man conscript line and goes "they get WHAT for a save?"
How do your opponents generally play? That is, when you lose what generally happens?
The tanks, for example are good but you need an infantry screen that can be relied upon to die on queue to make them really pop.
A basic infantry squad with lasguns can win games - not because they'll beat tyberos and the red brethren when they charge but because you can't bypass them - 10 guys can easily block off a gap 12" across - if you want to charge anyone behind them. You can tank shock through, but can't then get out. You canshoot at them, but shooting through the terminators gives them a 5+ save, the land raider blocks a lot of the army's fire....
and if you charge...you'll kill ten guardsmen and be left stranded in front of forty more in rapid fire range with demolisher cannons sighting up as you do so...
oh -final thought: if everyone plays marines - more fool them - why take an eradicator? A demolisher siege tank is much scarier against all the opponents you've described.
This is the inquisition codex, should you wish to purchase it. If your store doesn't accept this 100% official rule set purchased from the GW web store to which it is an exclusive, i don't know what you can do.
MarsNZ wrote: Why should I have to take allies to stand a chance?
Then don't take allies if you don't want to. If you struggle without them, then what are you expecting really?
Generally speaking, not directed at the guy above:
You either use allies or other methods listed and start doing better, or you don't and you'll probably still keep doing badly. Alternatively, you can just quit, the third option.
That's all there is really. Refusing from options and then being angry gets you absolutely nowhere. It's the most useless choice of all.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: Play another game. Made by a company that doesn't do "Flavor of the Month!" style releases where everyone else languishes with a gakky codex for years at a time.
Try Infinity, get off GWs carousel of screw.
I second this. Other game companies don't constantly screw you over to sell more models.
See what else is being played around there. If nothing, (and this isn't easy at all) try to build up a community. Get two forces of a game and give people demo games.
But unfortunately, where one lives is often a big factor in what one plays.
I'm more a bolt action fan tbh, I like 40k because of the depth of lore and characters. The game is pretty good but also has some touchy spots on it.
With a new CEO gw might shape up a bit better, keep in mind only a couple people have ever run this company, and the latest guy has barely been in the seat long enough to enact any real change to the 40k platform.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: Play another game. Made by a company that doesn't do "Flavor of the Month!" style releases where everyone else languishes with a gakky codex for years at a time.
Try Infinity, get off GWs carousel of screw.
I second this. Other game companies don't constantly screw you over to sell more models.
See what else is being played around there. If nothing, (and this isn't easy at all) try to build up a community. Get two forces of a game and give people demo games.
But unfortunately, where one lives is often a big factor in what one plays.
But seriously, try Infinity. It's amazing.
As amazing as Infinity can be, it's also currently in growing pains--and more than that, they severely pissed off a large number of dedicated fans/customers who feel like they misled friends/fellow gamers with baldfaced misinformation that CB put out prior to the N3 release.
Konrax wrote: Just take them as an allied force and you only need 1 troop.
Azrael is now a Lord Of War, meaning you can't take him in an Allied Detachment, which is why Crash said you'd need a CAD (plus a HQ and 2 Troops tax). Forewarning from an Inquisitor is just so much cheaper.
Many of you know me, Master of Ordinance, just another Dakkanought whom stomps around these forums. Recently though I feel that I have been turning a little sour in my posts, especially here on the 40K section and especially towards Space Marines. Now obviously this has been causing a little strife and I guess that some of you are wondering why I am getting so bitter about several factions and about my own codex. Well, here it is:
As you all know I am a die hard Imperial Guard player. I love my Guard and the general aspect of them, the notion that against all the odds in a universe inhabited by genetically enginieered tank plate wearing superhumans, bioweapons, ancient terminator egyptians, Demons, super advanced cowfish and other nasties these regular men and women clad in simple armour and armed only with a cheap rifle, a few grenades and balls of pure steel volunteer to go out and fight for their people, their homes, their empire. The volunteer to be hurled through the warp to some back hole planet that noone has ever heard of before and fight and die for the emperor. The Guard are metal as hell.
But recently things have been changing. Being an Imperial Guard player has never really been easy. You have had to cope with the fact that most basic Infantry weapons will ignore your armour, the fact that your troops are not the best in the whole galaxy and the vulnerabilities to assault. There was also the issue of seeing the gunline army status removed entirely with the introduction of a certain new race (totally not looking at you Tau). But a good Guard player with a strong grasp of tactics could fight on and, with a bit of luck, stand a good chance of winning against other armies. The use of tanks to blitz the enemy off objectives and then sending Infantry up to claim them, combined arms tactics and the use of many amazing strategies that baffled opponents would carry you to victory.
But then things changed. 5th became 6th and then very rapidly 7th. In a single codex GW killed the tactical depth in 40K and the factors in winning a game went from 10% army list and 90% tactics too 50% army list, 50% tactics. Things where bad, but we in the Guard where able to hold on and keep going to an extent. Sure, we where playing with 5th edition codex but things could have been worse...... Spoke too soon.
The 6th edition Imperial Guard codex dropped and things went from bad to fubar overnight. Suddenly we had lost many useable units, being reduced down to a grand total of (arguably - some of these are situational/not too good) 6 selections that where actually worth the inordinate amount of points we where paying for them. Our tanks lost the Lumbering Behemoth rule and with it half of their firepower. Units which needed price drops where left standing as they where or even worse given a price hike/nerf. The outcome was bleak but worse was yet to come.
The Necrons codex dropped and with it began the (in)famous line of the 'Decurion style' codex. Swiftly following this came the Eldar and Space Marines with Adeptus Mechanicus trailing in their wake. Now winning a game is 80% army choice and 20% tactics. We in the Guard department where left in the dust. The Tau had taken our gunline, the idiot whom wrote our codex had taken our manoeuvrability and the Space Marines had taken our tank. we have nothing, seriously NOTHING. Playing the Imperial Guard went from being a challenge to a 'how long can I hold out before he feths me over'. Victories went from difficult to nigh on impossible. The learning curve for new IG players actually breached that of the Cryx in Warmachine in elevation.
Now that sounds bad right, but surely at a large and diverse club like the one that I attend there should be some whom play Orcs or Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard for me to get a fun game against? *bitter laughter*
Nope. There WAS another two Imperial Guard players. There WAS an Ork player. There WAS a Dark Eldar player. WAS.
As of the last count I am the only active Imperial Guard player in my club. There is one Sister of Battle player and he attends so infrequently that he may as well not be there. Now guess what all of the others play? We have:
More Space Marine players than can be counted
Several Dark Angels players
A Grey Knight player
A couple of Tyranid players
A few Chaos players... Whom now play vanilla Space Marines
A couple of Tyranid players
A member of the club management whom owns an entire Knight household with Adeptus Mechanicus and Skitarii supporting elements (the army looks epic though and is amazingly well painted) and is still expanding on it
A Spacewolf player
A Tau player
Of these my regular opponents are:
The Grey Knight player
A Ravenwing player
A Deathwing player
A certain Space Marine player whom loves to bring Primarchs (legal and homebrewed) to friendly games and has a habit of whining about my tanks being overpowered and broken
Now, can people see where my perspective is coming from? When I drop on to these forums and see a Space Marine player complaining about how his 3+ save is useless or how his tactical's are over priced I want to grab him by the collar and shake him whilst screaming "You think you have it bad? YOU THINK YOU HAVE IT BAD?! TRY PLAYING THE GUARD DAMNIT, AT LEAST YOU GET YOUR SAVES VS MOST SMALL ARMS FIRE!!!! When I see these threads where people want to buff the Rhino (an already amazingly good APC which wish my Imperial Guard had access too) still further I want to weep. When I see threads about Tau players wanting MOAR fancy shooty I just stare. Where I see said Tau players wanting to take even more tank and artillery I actually get really pissed, its like they want to strip everything that the Guard have and make it theirs. My guys have NOTHING which can compete with these codex's. Nothing that can counter these powerful units. Nothing which equals a formation.
Hell, even Tyranids are tough as they can bring Monstrous Creatures and, well, we know how THAT ends when placed against the Imperial Guard.
I have players whom have never even played using the Imperial Guard telling me that my Infantry are amazing and that my orders are broken despite the fact that it takes, on average, 200 lasgun shots to put down your regular vanilla 10 man Tactical squad or equivalent. I have a certain Space Marine players complaining that Imperial Guard orders are overpowered and should only be useable once per game because FRFSRF over two turns from a Veteran section with a Heavy bolter killed 5 Devestators. I have Marine and Marine derivative players, telling me that I rely too much on my tanks. What else am I supposed to rely on? Infantry? Like hell that ever works.
Its the same on here, we have Marine players wanting a Rhino to have more survivability than a Leman Russ on a Rhino. We have them wanting AV14 on their Predators. Predators which are already cheaper and faster than Leman Russ (The Russ can only move 6" a turn). We have Tau players wanting even more shooty stuff and artillery support.
Oh, and for a kicker we have the Space Marine players, and the players from the other meta codex's coming along and telling us that the Imperial Guard dont need formations that give us free stuff and dont need buffs to this and that.
You see, from my perspective the game stinks right now. Everything that my army does another army does better, and half the time those armies players want more.
In all honesty I would love to take a break from the game but I cant. Why not? Because 40K is the only game that is really played right now at my club. The Warmachine scene died off so my Cryx sit unused. The Darkage scene was, sadly, stillborn owning to some supply issues. I occasionally see Fantasy but the only real players right now are doing a campaign based off the End Times. AoS is.... Terrible. Infinity MIGHT be a way out but right now I am gauging the future of the scene before I invest in another game and I am trying to get the Bolt Action scene kickstarted.
Sorry for the large wall of text. I hope that this explains, at the very least, some of my bitterness.
i feel your pain, i had a guard army for quite awhile for similiar reasons that you chose them. But after getting pounded into the ground day in and day out i just said screw it and moved on. I tryed every angle to try and some how squeeze a win here and there, but they just can't hold their own with the newer codexes unless they take allys..which in my opinion the ally matrix should be there to add fluffy stuff or a new fun factor to your list..not be the crutch that hopefully hobbles you into a win. I enjoy a challenge my current lists are CSM and none flyrant tyranids(got about 200 gaunts lol) so i guess i'm still in a similar boat as far as the struggle to hold up against marine power mongering ETC
IG players: What are these marine lists running to squish you? Are they list tailoring? Insist on playing against a non-tailored list. I consider drop pod marine lists very suspicious, as there are many lists they back fire against. (Mech lists)
I'm actually a really good traitor as I've gotten really good at killing other marine lists. The training started back in 5th because of all the accursed Space Puppies.
SGTPozy wrote: You can take your boring gunline playsyle from the Tau but to be honest I have no idea why anyone would want to play that way :L
Do all the Tau players you encounter run pure gunlines? I am asking because I keep seeing comments like this in the forums. I personally don't play my army that way.
Martel732 wrote: I suspect most do crazyK because the Devilfish is considerably overcosted.
I don't want to hijack this thread, but there are plenty of deepstriking and outflanking options that are very fun to play.
It applies to most lists that putting units in reserve is often very undesirable. I've won many games with BA that I shouldn't have been able to because my opponent tried to DS/outflank instead of lining up and taking care of business from turn 1.
I'd guess the usual stuff that people at an average level of play have trouble with: Death Stars, alphastrikes, and spam.
When you play at "average hobby game club" level of competitiveness, I.E. Just random stuff getting chosen, the game becomes a whole lot less balanced, purely because of what players of the respective factions tend to instinctively like.
In my experience at least, the most common thing for an Eldar player to think is "wicked cool" is wraith stuff. For tau? Suits, obviously. Space marines? Toss up between loads of tanks and pumped up characters. Necrons will gravitate towards a shambling foot horde.
And the stuff people are apt to like about things like Orks (big hordes of melee focused dudes!) or chaos (yeah CC power armor!) or guard (random tanks and artillery and squads of guys!) are likely to get clobbered because, while they're DOABLE at a more competitive level, they're more reliant on knowing where your tricks are.
Guard are for absolutely sure a weaker codex at the moment, totally stuffed with units you couldn't use in a million years. To go toe to toe with the average tossed-together lists of the top tier factions. Were at an odd point of rough balance where any army in some fashion can see top tables, with great players playing min maxed lists but for the average joe balance is much more of a minefield. Which is precisely why the attitude of "I shouldn't have to do X or Y or Z to compete" has GOT to go first of all.
You have zero control over your opponents lists. Ideally, you should strive for close games-they're the most fun after all. If your winrate is lower than 50%, anything that lets you play the models you enjoy more enjoyably can and should be used. And it should be absolutely done in the way that takes the least effort/monetary cost from you. Whether that's buckling down and doing your homework on what the best build for you to use is, do that. Whether that's as simple as saying one model is something else? (Personally my Shafers' Ghost and Sly Marbo models are seeing new life as Vindicare and Culexus Assassins) Then that's great. Play around. Make a change. Don't be afraid to admit you're doing things wrong and that you can learn.
Space Puppy alpha strike lists from 5th were almost completely neutered by IG mech lists. I suspect the same would be true in 7th, however vehicles are so much weaker that the temptation to not use Chimeras is great. Even still, clever bubble wrapping with cheap squads puts alpha strikers in an awkward position.
Ideally, death stars would be fed minimal squads with no gear turn after turn. This is hard to do, though, but IG has a better chance of minimizing the damage than a marine army. The marines of course might be able to kill it with grav cents, but lists like BA can do neither.
Spam is completely dependent on what is being spammed. IG are actually in a pretty good place vs scatterbike spam, which is the #1 spam unit right now I'd say.
True, but in "average joe 40k" people tend not to do well against stuff like that. When faced with say a strong Death Star, the usual response is to not do anything different from normal, lose, and then be mad about it. That's why things like Riptide spam, which is laughable at a tourney-level, is likely to make you a really hated player at a normal level, because a riptide seems like this unkillable death machine and-WHAT? You have THREE? You know how it goes.
Big stuff without an obvious answer = broken in average joe 40k.
Martel, the skyhammer is garbage unless you are paying a points level that allows you to actually kit them out to do damage. As such if you look at the competitive scene there are one or two builds of marines that are doing well...
Furthermore, to the OP it sounds like you are not having a problem with the game, but you are instead having a problem with not being able to expand your army the way you want (i.e. air support and heavy artillery) and in turn you are playing in a gaming club that the players have a simple goal of winning.
If you want to have more fun start talking with the people you are playing against and explain to them you are not having fun and build some scenarios that make it more enjoyable... (me and my friend just played a game with the promethium pipes and I used a tech marine as my only HQ) The game was tons of fun (he plays orks, and honestly Marines do not beat a slightly competitive ork list becasue of what they can bring to the table)...
Every army has weaknesses and every army has strengths... you have a ton of marines you are playing with... set down 6 russ' on your side and watch them quiver in fear.
I know your pain. I'm the only non-marine player in my group and yes, I play the Guard (THE GUARD! )
I usualy lose, because Marines are just and simply superior, but often I manage to beat them with just few remaining guys on the table and sometimes I win the game with my head held high.
Thanks to them I started to hate Marines. My greatest joy is to blast them with Battlecannons, roast them with plasmas and tear them with hotshots. They are brute warriors and I use brute force to counter them. I'm literally trying to eradicate evil with evil. And sometimes it works.
But remember, my brother in arms. Without the Guard, the Imperium of Man would cease to exist. We aren't the strongest, but we are irreplaceable.
If every other player in your group plays marines, surely you must have an enormous advantage given that you can just stack your list against marines chock full of Battlecannons, Paskishers, executioners and meltavets, right?
If your opponents all play the same army, with very few exceptions that should make them hugely easy to beat.
Mantorok wrote: Have you considered getting a new army?
Like eldar or necrons?
The moment you have to use the buy another army-card, you know the guy is right, and I think he is. I read his post and I recognize his feelings because I play CSM and I am in a very similar situation.
Just about everyone does just about everything better.
DaPino have you actually looked at how bad space marines are outside of the bikes and pods? Seriously, all of our armies have problems... for example... my nids are TERRIBLE because I do not want to buy the models to make them competitive. However, you will never hear me complain about them... (unless you make a comment about lictors not attacking when they appear from the foliage).
the_scotsman wrote: If every other player in your group plays marines, surely you must have an enormous advantage given that you can just stack your list against marines chock full of Battlecannons, Paskishers, executioners and meltavets, right?
If your opponents all play the same army, with very few exceptions that should make them hugely easy to beat.
Well, one is regular marine player, second Space Wolf player and third Chaos player, but yes I have anti-marine list. But even with that, Guardsmen is still a Guardsmen. Squishy dude with a lasgun. And we play only low-point games, where every casualty hurts.
the_scotsman wrote: If every other player in your group plays marines, surely you must have an enormous advantage given that you can just stack your list against marines chock full of Battlecannons, Paskishers, executioners and meltavets, right?
If your opponents all play the same army, with very few exceptions that should make them hugely easy to beat.
Well, one is regular marine player, second Space Wolf player and third Chaos player, but yes I have anti-marine list. But even with that, Guardsmen is still a Guardsmen. Squishy dude with a lasgun. And we play only low-point games, where every casualty hurts.
Exactly. Even fully geared out for MEQ killing my Guardsmen just can not put the damage downrange fast enough or hard enough. I had the GK player tell me I relied too much on my tanks. I pointed at the all Infantry game that I was playing and told him "This is what happens when I rely on my Infantry". And even then I struggle. Cover stops blasts from wiping units and Marines will survive. It is really, really difficult for me to have a hope in hells chance to win.
Hawky, what does your average list consist of... perhaps the answer is taking some of us very veteran marine players and letting us help you build a list to crush them... also, are they running mostly bikes and pods or something different...
I can tell you not to be upset, but I would rather help you build a list out of what you have... so many have said to do so many things... but I did not see someone really give a good break down of how to win with what you have...
remember that Marines suck, and for the points we have one of the worst troop choices in the game, just have to capitalize on our weaknesses.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Master of ordinance, the same goes for you, let me know what you have available and what you see against you and I will help you build a list that may fare better against your opponents.
the_scotsman wrote: If every other player in your group plays marines, surely you must have an enormous advantage given that you can just stack your list against marines chock full of Battlecannons, Paskishers, executioners and meltavets, right?
If your opponents all play the same army, with very few exceptions that should make them hugely easy to beat.
Well, one is regular marine player, second Space Wolf player and third Chaos player, but yes I have anti-marine list. But even with that, Guardsmen is still a Guardsmen. Squishy dude with a lasgun. And we play only low-point games, where every casualty hurts.
Exactly. Even fully geared out for MEQ killing my Guardsmen just can not put the damage downrange fast enough or hard enough. I had the GK player tell me I relied too much on my tanks. I pointed at the all Infantry game that I was playing and told him "This is what happens when I rely on my Infantry". And even then I struggle. Cover stops blasts from wiping units and Marines will survive. It is really, really difficult for me to have a hope in hells chance to win.
Can you tell me what that Grey Knight player runs? I have really struggled against IG since I started in 5th edition. This guy seems to know what's up, so if I could see his list I may be able to improve my own.
Paladins. 9 of them with a lord in there, some of the not-tacticals... Purifiers I think, and a Dreadknight.
Honestly I have no idea about anything apart from the Dreadknight and the damn Paladins. Sanctuary, or whatever that massive Invun buff is, on them and BAM! Invunra unit.
the_scotsman wrote: If every other player in your group plays marines, surely you must have an enormous advantage given that you can just stack your list against marines chock full of Battlecannons, Paskishers, executioners and meltavets, right?
If your opponents all play the same army, with very few exceptions that should make them hugely easy to beat.
Well, one is regular marine player, second Space Wolf player and third Chaos player, but yes I have anti-marine list. But even with that, Guardsmen is still a Guardsmen. Squishy dude with a lasgun. And we play only low-point games, where every casualty hurts.
Exactly. Even fully geared out for MEQ killing my Guardsmen just can not put the damage downrange fast enough or hard enough. I had the GK player tell me I relied too much on my tanks. I pointed at the all Infantry game that I was playing and told him "This is what happens when I rely on my Infantry". And even then I struggle. Cover stops blasts from wiping units and Marines will survive. It is really, really difficult for me to have a hope in hells chance to win.
You are doing something very wrong, then. If you tailor for marines, you should bury them.
I feel your pain. I started playing in 3rd. My first army was dark eldar. I STILL remember the list. And have most of the models although most need repairs. I loved when my Archeon and incibi would charge a unit, wipe it out and consolidate into the next one. I loved the fact I could turbo boost my bikes across the board to draw fire and they would survive. Wych units kicked butt in combat and the game was fun, varied and tatical. Then 4th, 5th and so on. 12 years of no codex. Things progressively got worse. Still being a fan of the game I picked up orks. Made a speed freaks list that was pretty kick butt. And again they got nerfed neglected and outdated. Undaunted I moved to tau and then necrons... Untill about 2 years ago. At this point the price for a new army was getting out of control and i just could not keep up. Stopped playing. I've recently got back in - rebuilding an imperial fist army because that's what I have the most functional bits for. Trading off old beloved stuff for new kits or sprues to bring the fists up to fighting form.
Long story short - I get where you come from. But in today's age changing armies is not an option unless your filthy rich or have the ability to trade. Not good prospects either way. One way I've found - I formed a "council" with my friends and we changed the game. House ruled codex and main book alike to make it enjoyable for everyone. Maybe something like that could work for you?
master of ordinance wrote: Paladins. 9 of them with a lord in there, some of the not-tacticals... Purifiers I think, and a Dreadknight.
Honestly I have no idea about anything apart from the Dreadknight and the damn Paladins. Sanctuary, or whatever that massive Invun buff is, on them and BAM! Invunra unit.
Hmm. That's pretty similar to my 5th edition list. I doubt he's taking Purifiers, though. They don't have Deep Strike and Psycannons are severely nerfed. They also can't be troops any more so unless he's going unbound, they're probably a Strike Squad.
My Dreadknight never made it past a turn within effective range with all the lascannons, punisher shots, and plasma guns my opponent could lay downfield.
1 Demolisher is going to do a number on Paladins, especially with a few squads of Plasma vets nearby to clean up after words. With Sanctuary up, they've got a 4+ invulnerable save, which means 50% of your shots aren't going through... good thing you can lay down a huge number of shots! Demolisher is ignoring the FnP I assume they've got from the Apothecary, but it will block even more of your plasma shots. If they're using Sanctuary and only have 1 Lord, that means they're using a Librarian or Grand Master and not Kaldor Draigo, so just be glad you don't have to face down a 2++ save on an Eternal Warrior!
Also, because he's only taking 9 Paladins, he's only got 2 psycannons. Which means his fire power is half as much as it could be. Exploit that!
Remember: Even the battle cannon means instant death (and no FnP!) against Paladins. Everybody rolls 1s eventually.
Hawky, what does your average list consist of... perhaps the answer is taking some of us very veteran marine players and letting us help you build a list to crush them... also, are they running mostly bikes and pods or something different...
I can tell you not to be upset, but I would rather help you build a list out of what you have... so many have said to do so many things... but I did not see someone really give a good break down of how to win with what you have...
remember that Marines suck, and for the points we have one of the worst troop choices in the game, just have to capitalize on our weaknesses.
750pts
CCS /w Carapace armor and Autocannon team
Tempestus Scion squad (10man) /w two Volley Guns
Veterans in Carapace /w two Plasmas and in Chimera /w Pintle Stubber
Veterans in Carapace /w two Plasmas
Veterans /w Camo cloaks and Missile Launcher
(All sergeants have Boltguns)
Naked LRBT
Regular marine usually play Captain /w relic blade in artificer armor, few squads of Tacticals, squad of Stenguards and a squad of Assaults or Vanguards. Sometimes Dreadnought /w Multimelta.
SW plays a Captain in Terminator armor, Grey Hunters in Rhinos and squad or two with devastators /w Missile launchers and Bikers. Sometimes Droppod.
Chaos plays Deepstriking Chaos lord in terminator armour /w 5 more terminators, ton of Regular marines, squad of Cultists and a Defiler.
Seriously, dude. Culexus assassin makes GKs cry. S5AP1 attack with 3 shots, plus up to 3 more from your own WC pool, plus 1 for each ML of psykers within 12". Then, no armor saves allowed in cc. I have watched that mother shred whole squads of previously invisible grey knight terminators.
Hide him midfield and those GKs can't get to within their 24" threat range without all their precious buffs going bye-bye.
I feel that the following armies released during this edition are better suited as an allied detachment or formation:
Astra Militarum
Blood Angels
Dark Eldar
Grey Knights
Funnily enough they were all released prior to the top tier codices that followed. So if you're willing to run two different factions I think AM can still be quite competitive and obviously battle brothers is a great thing for all Imperial armies.
Runic wrote: IG is a fantastic army when combined with allies.
I get that alot of you are trying to be helpful & offer suggestions but when literally the only way for IG players to make their lists competitive & on par with other armies is to bring units from other armies (aka not play IG) isn't that indicative of a serious problem? I play for fun, I don't mind losing but when winning is entirely out of the realm of possibility the moment an opponent puts their army down on the table it gets old after awhile. Its not my list making, its just the state of the game atm. So many things in the IG codex are poorly designed, overcosted &/or serve no purpose leaving us with very little utility. Take the vox caster for example. Why in the h*ll does this not permit orders to be given at unlimited distance? This isn't dark age of technology equipment here, its primitive radio equipment. Its ridiculous. Why do Stormtroopers cost as much as space marine, yet have a guardsman statline? Rough Riders...just what the h*ll man. I'm not interested in playing another army. I want to play IG, I love IG but as is the army is seriously lacking.
Runic wrote: IG is a fantastic army when combined with allies.
I get that alot of you are trying to be helpful & offer suggestions but when literally the only way for IG players to make their lists competitive & on par with other armies is to bring units from other armies (aka not play IG) isn't that indicative of a serious problem? I play for fun, I don't mind losing but when winning is entirely out of the realm of possibility the moment an opponent puts their army down on the table it gets old after awhile. Its not my list making, its just the state of the game atm. So many things in the IG codex are poorly designed, overcosted &/or serve no purpose leaving us with very little utility. Take the vox caster for example. Why in the h*ll does this not permit orders to be given at unlimited distance? This isn't dark age of technology equipment here, its primitive radio equipment. Its ridiculous. Why do Stormtroopers cost as much as space marine, yet have a guardsman statline? Rough Riders...just what the h*ll man. I'm not interested in playing another army. I want to play IG, I love IG but as is the army is seriously lacking.
This is easy. Space Marines pay for an overvalued 3+ save. Storm Troopers pay for an overvalued ability to negate that 3+ save.
It's a way to make a competitive army with your guard if you want to win some games - it's not the end of the world. Allies can be a lot of fun. Admech or IK could be very interesting bringing into the mix and still be a fluffy army theme.
Runic wrote: IG is a fantastic army when combined with allies.
I get that alot of you are trying to be helpful & offer suggestions but when literally the only way for IG players to make their lists competitive & on par with other armies is to bring units from other armies (aka not play IG) isn't that indicative of a serious problem? I play for fun, I don't mind losing but when winning is entirely out of the realm of possibility the moment an opponent puts their army down on the table it gets old after awhile. Its not my list making, its just the state of the game atm. So many things in the IG codex are poorly designed, overcosted &/or serve no purpose leaving us with very little utility. Take the vox caster for example. Why in the h*ll does this not permit orders to be given at unlimited distance? This isn't dark age of technology equipment here, its primitive radio equipment. Its ridiculous. Why do Stormtroopers cost as much as space marine, yet have a guardsman statline? Rough Riders...just what the h*ll man. I'm not interested in playing another army. I want to play IG, I love IG but as is the army is seriously lacking.
So if the Inquisition, Assassins, Knights and Fortifications were in the IG codex instead of just random dataslates and gak, you'd use them?
Part of the overarching theme of the IG is the massive variation in the regiments. I play Vostroyans. Vostroya is a Forgeworld-including some skiitari is totally fluffy. Or a Knight-I even know the household they're associated with and have been since 2nd edition.
I just don't get it. Including a 50-point inquisitor or 200 points of skiitari in a 2000 point guard list does SO much to multiply the power of the guard. Not cover their weaknesses with the strengths of another faction. Increase THEIR strengths, and make them perform like you want.
No offense MoO, but your list is terrible. If this is an average list from your meta, I can see why we disagree so much on what is considered valuable.
A few models (can you do conversions?) would really improve your army.
Psykers. Div in an army as strong at ranged fighting as IG is, and including their low BS, is very useful. Try to take some. As detailed, take inquisition psykers for various buffs.
Culexus and some of the other specialized killers might help you. This is more meta dependent. In other threads you've mentioned marines charging your tanks, an Eversor could defend them quite well.
Drop the HBs. HBs are terrible, in any and every army. They lack range, strength, and number of shots.
Melta are bad unless taken in a relatively large number and on a speedy unit that can be dropped. Plasma/flamers get a lot more mileage with the guard (meta dependent). If you take psykers I'd lean more towards plasma.
Don't you have to pay for Krak grenades? Don't pay for krak grenades.
I know that mono codex is weaker, but I don't try to mix codexes outside of the ones that were clearly meant to be mixed (like the 2 mentioned above), so I know where you are coming from. My main army is alpha legion, which I am forced to run as CSM (and I already have an Ultra Marine army for that) since the Chaos dex is a joke.
The IG codex can't keep up with the ultra strong eldar and necron armies, true. But your meta, from other threads, is nowhere near that bad. You should be fine with some list adjustments.
Anyway you can provide a battle report? I think the Inq Psyker will help a bit, and the eversor, but you seem to have problems will deepstrikers that can be fixed with deployment.
Hawky one of your problems can be seen immediately, and that is that you are not taking advatage of one of your best traits... and that is numbers.
Try dropping the Scions and picking up another battle tank or a demolisher battle tank...
You are giving up so much army by taking high points cost items. when you stood be trying to overwhelm your opponent. Kind of like an orc player that uses specialists instead of shoota boys...
Next time try going with just normal guardsmen and a couple tanks, and throw a couple plasma into the normal guard squads...
Also, you are playing against douchebags when it comes to the GK player, as in such a small points cost game and they are running pallys??!! Furthermore, if your SM opponent is bringing that much in a 750 point game then you need to make sure he is calculating points properly.
Look I want to point out that in the last two years the only time I have beaten orcs it when they have a stompa... if they spam boys then I am toast (however, I did just smoke a green tide thanks to objectives)
So remember, if you have an army that packs a ton of guys into 100 points then run with that, because sure, your guys die fast... but at 750 you should be outnumbering 3 to 1
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I am sorry but I never saw the list that MoO posted, so I can not comment, however, I would literally bet any one on here a company of marines that if we played 1500 pts and you used vanilla marines without bikes I would smoke you with my guard once, and most likely tie once, and ... well my dice rolls would only hold out for so long.
Furthermore, if you are playing guard then you have really got to capitalize on your strengths which is armor and bodies... and the fact that in 1500 points you can put down 3-4 russes and 50-60 guys...
Runic wrote: IG is a fantastic army when combined with allies.
I get that alot of you are trying to be helpful & offer suggestions but when literally the only way for IG players to make their lists competitive & on par with other armies is to bring units from other armies (aka not play IG) isn't that indicative of a serious problem? I play for fun, I don't mind losing but when winning is entirely out of the realm of possibility the moment an opponent puts their army down on the table it gets old after awhile. Its not my list making, its just the state of the game atm. So many things in the IG codex are poorly designed, overcosted &/or serve no purpose leaving us with very little utility. Take the vox caster for example. Why in the h*ll does this not permit orders to be given at unlimited distance? This isn't dark age of technology equipment here, its primitive radio equipment. Its ridiculous. Why do Stormtroopers cost as much as space marine, yet have a guardsman statline? Rough Riders...just what the h*ll man. I'm not interested in playing another army. I want to play IG, I love IG but as is the army is seriously lacking.
This is easy. Space Marines pay for an overvalued 3+ save. Storm Troopers pay for an overvalued ability to negate that 3+ save.
S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9". Stormtroopers have never been particularly good. The AP3 schtick is really not something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.
I play my guard as a mechanized, tank heavy force personally. Two Veteran Squads mounted in chimeras, with a third Veteran squad riding in a Valkyrie, Tank Commander Squadron (Vanquisher Commander & Exterminator backup tank), a stand alone Executioner with 3x Heavy Bolters & a Stubber up top, a pair of Griffon Mortars (Each it's own choice), and a Primaris Psyker. With this I also add an allied Cullexus Assassin. That's my 1500 point list & I have a good luck with it versus Marines and a variety of other opponents.
Try changing your list up, Run Grenadiers instead of forward Sentries, try to mount your squads into vehicles down the road, and put your list up in the Army List section for me. I'll look it over and see if I can help come up with some suggestions on tweaks to help.
Thyhadras wrote: DaPino have you actually looked at how bad space marines are outside of the bikes and pods? Seriously, all of our armies have problems... for example... my nids are TERRIBLE because I do not want to buy the models to make them competitive. However, you will never hear me complain about them... (unless you make a comment about lictors not attacking when they appear from the foliage).
This is exactly what OP and me are talking about. You are saying how "bad space marines are outside of bikes and pods".
First of all, CSM and guard both don't een have the option to go this competitive route of "bikes and pods".
Second of all and now I'm speaking for CSM specifically. Just about everything in the CSM codex that has got a parallel in the SM codex is a crappy version of it's SM equivalent. When you say "This unit in my SM codex is bad" that means its CSM equivalent is probably even worse. My infantry costs the same and doesn't have ATSKNF and the units that have fearless are overcosted (except plague marines). My vehicles don't have power of the machine spirit and the SM equivelants never get taken because they're bad, so why should mine suddenly be good?
And you're talking about not having much unit variety? Well gak son, welcome to CSM. We've got a Nurgle DP, Plague marines, Heldrakes and Nurgle obliterators and that just about sums up the entirety of units that's worth taking in our codex because anything else you'll find somewhere else doing it better and cheaper. And even then you'll find more worth for your points in other codices (apart from maybe the plague marines).
Yoy are very correct some chaos player had to have pissed off gw at some point. .. however I imagine a nurgle bike army would fare very well. .. I hope they get some love soon. ...
Also guard still has leaf blower which is an expensive build but extremely violent
Commissar Benny wrote: but when literally the only way for IG players to make their lists competitive & on par with other armies is to bring units from other armies (aka not play IG) isn't that indicative of a serious problem?
It depends on ones perception. If you perceive that all Codices should be able to stand on their own ( inside a system that allows allies... even this notion should clarify how futile this is ) then you could perceive it is a problem. If you however see the game the way it factually is, a game that allows and encourages you to use allies, then there is no problem whatsoever.
It all comes down to one wishing to turn a game about armies+allies into a game about "just" armies, even when the rules allow the former and even encourage it. The age of the monocodice armies is mostly over, asfar as I'm concerned.
The problem manifests for certain people because they want the game to be something it simply isn't, or their army to do something it can't. No amount of tantrums will change neither.
How about instead just trying some allies? Like someone said above, it's not the end of the world. You can make it fluffy too ( I play Red Hunters and Grey Knights, and the Inquisition. )
It is this now ancient notion of monocodex armies, dating back to the days before the Great Cr... allies matrix was introduced, that makes some people think a Codex should be able to take on other Codices and their possible allies on their own. They shouldn't in my personal opinion, as the game in it's current state allows such a vast amount of diverse builds that every army has a huge weakness against something else and no singular faction is immune to a certain nasty build of another. In modern day 40K, allies are more the constant than the variable ( yes yes, your group can have 0 people who plays allies, I also have a group inwhich no Eldar player spams scatterbikes, doesn't change anything. )
Allies are a double edged blade, they help fix the issues of the books but they also allow some ridiculous combinations. If they were removed from the game, Codex balance would have to be near perfect for the game not to collapse back to how it was before allies ( a few books dominating all the rest. Currently, with allies, you can actually squash any book with almost any book using allies. )
"Every Codex should be balanced to stand against eachother 1vs1" - is a subjective notion of some. It's based on the sole notion of "I want it to be so." Perhaps it's homage is partial to the fact there used to be no allies. Perhaps these people rationalize that "in other games that's how it works." In any case, it is in no way better or more right than the concept of "Every Codex should be able to take allies in order to combat another army better."
If you decided one is better than the other, then that's your subjective opionion, and nothing more. A studio could, actually, design a game based deliberately on a system of allies rather than going 1v1. They are simply different approaches, none better than the other except in our subjective views.
I disagree Runic for two reasons. One, not all Codices have such excellent access to allies as IoM armies do. Two, GW itself doesn't hold to this paradigm of CAD+Ally. Eldar and Necrons can run fine by themselves as can C:SM.
Which is why I said that I consider the age of monocodice armies mostly over instead of "completely."
Regarding IoM, while they have the biggest selection of Battle Brothers level armies, most armies can ally in quite well in order to buff up their power. Whether it's always fluffy or not is a different thing. Both Eldar codices can ally with eachother and there's some powerful combos there. CSM can ally with Daemons or Daemonkin if they so wish, and now have a big selection of Forgeworld stuff to go by. All IoM armies can ally with eachother. I've seen Necrons and Tyranids allied to great effect. I'd say only Tyranids really suffer in the ally department, and even they can do well without allies these days ( but the builds are few, I'll give you that. )
In the end it comes down to how many personal restrictions a player sets upon himself.
In a way it would be cool, and I'd like it personally. But should that happen we better pray to the Emperor that the books would be balanced with eachother, or it would be a disaster.
Personally I suspect they wouldn't be balanced at all, just like they never have been, and while I dislike Hive Tyrants supporting a Tau Fire Cadre, I'll take the allies system over the old way inwhich a single book dominated all the rest for a full edition.
I guess so. We'll just have to wait and see how things will play out.
I know that this is such a non-statement but GW is nothing if not unpredictable. They may make all their codices from now in the 2015 Necron style. C:SM may be the last. They may release Age of the Emperor next year and end the whole formation thing all together.
When it comes to allies, xenos are screwed, no way around it.
We just don't interact with each other, so the best you can do is get a few power units of both sides, but you never have a true combo like IoM armies do.
IoM armies saying "no allies" is honestly silly, considering that in the fluff NONE of them work on its own.
tau tse tung wrote:I hope it doesn't seem like I'm rubbing it in you're face or anything, but I would lose all the time with guard in 5 and 6th but now I'm winning against broken lists like smashfether and even 30k ordo reducer. Yeah it's not a win every time army but that's the fun. Bring some flyers and deathstrike and I'm sure you're luck can turn around before the new codex drops!
Good luck from a fellow guardsman!
Thanks man, want to swap opponents?
Funny - i've never heard of the 'ordo reducer' before. Those guys must suck really badly.
If you end up near stroud with an army i'll be happy to oblige you with a game - fyi: i prefer 6th edition and i play Ordo Reductor.
Thyhadras wrote: Yoy are very correct some chaos player had to have pissed off gw at some point. .. however I imagine a nurgle bike army would fare very well. .. I hope they get some love soon. ...
It was called Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3.5 edition...
And no, I fully expect with how GW has left our model line to rot, that we'll likely be 'accidently' missed in the codex line-up, only for Hastings' rumor to be proven true and GW drops the codices altogether.
Guard may have gotten a book that's aged very quickly, but at least you guys have a solid model line to pick from, plus the godly IoM ally games to play off of... What do we have? A model line that's 'better' than only the long forgotten Sisters, and looks like utter gak outside of the TWO new unit kits we've received! I mean for feth's sake, Marines have now had two freaking plastic Devastator kits released, and we're still stuck with our ancient and unplayable Finecrap Havoc garbage.
And then there's the fact that outside of the Raptors kit, none of our infantry kits come with better than 50% of their actual options... (despite those options having seen pretty much 0 change across the past 17+ years! )
The only good things right now about Chaos is the fact that we have Daemons, and if you can get it, the FW rules. So much for being the Imperium's greatest threat...
Runic wrote: Which is why I said that I consider the age of monocodice armies mostly over instead of "completely."
Yeah, it's mostly over! Except, y'know, the three or four newest books...
The biggest problem in my mind is that GW do a 180 every 4-6 months. So 3 or 4 books will be way toned down (Guard, Orks, Space Wolves, Blood Angels in the most recent case though Wolves at least can still perform pretty well) and then they go for 3 or 4 balls to the wall crazy books that make the armies that came just before play with a handicap. Sadly, it appears that some of the "handicap" armies repeat themselves over editions (Tyranids barring one or two powerful units/ builds, for one) while others that were complained about in previous editions (Eldar) don't even get nerfed or points increases. They actually get CHEAPER and/ or BETTER. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense.
As far as the op and Guard is concerned, I bought into Guard in a pretty big way because I loved the WW1 WW2 aesthetic and theme of bodies as far as the eye can see broken up only by lumbering tanks and APCs and the occasional foxhole with a few heavy gunners in it. I acquired well over 120 infantry, a dozen or so tanks and around 15 heavy weapon teams and I've never played a game with them. Ever. I have two different Codexes and still a hell of a long way to go before I feel like I'd have any of the necessary tools to play to a minor defeat.
It's disheartening, and it affects my desire to paint so many bodies. I have a similar problem with my Orks. For either army, my best friend right now is a $60 artillery kit. The Guard one at least costs 85 points in-game. The Ork one as little as 18 but caps out at 30 iirc.
I have played both Tau and Guard. Tau are good, but everything being just a liiiitle too pricey makes them kinda weak. They get some great stuff, definitely, but they can't fit enough in. A lot of the stuff is also a bit crap.
On the guard point of view - I've actually turned to guard, from playing Tau. I share your love for them and what they stand for in the universe. That alone allows me to enjoy each game, even when I lose, cos I know all my dudes died being valiant heroes in a world of OP. I also disagree with everyone saying that you need allies. Every army IS better than guard, BUT they are better at SPECIFIC things. Tau are good at gun line, marines are tougher, Eldar are faster. BUT guard aren't bad at anything. They are the jack-of-all-trades. I've won roughly 70% of games with guard. They are one of the most versatile armies IMO. I could just be lucky, but in my experience they are actually more fun to play than other races like Tau. Just because Guard aren't OP in a particular field, doesn't mean they are useless.
Just throwin out a thought here... does anyone play or might be interested in playing Star Trek Attack Wing, D&D Attack Wing, Star Wars X-Wing, or HeroClix at all? I know none are as in depth as 40K or have as much detail as Warhammer models, but they aren't overly expensive to get into either. I mean, if you want a ton of ships/Clix or to be super competitive, it may cost about as much as Warhammer does. That said, the cost of playing HeroClix, Attack Wing, or Clix isn't prohibitive if you'd like to play a different game for the time being until a new IG codex is printed.
If the above isn't your thing, I understand and hate that things aren't fun for you anymore. Hopefully something will change for you soon.
Runic wrote: Which is why I said that I consider the age of monocodice armies mostly over instead of "completely."
Regarding IoM, while they have the biggest selection of Battle Brothers level armies, most armies can ally in quite well in order to buff up their power. Whether it's always fluffy or not is a different thing. Both Eldar codices can ally with eachother and there's some powerful combos there. CSM can ally with Daemons or Daemonkin if they so wish, and now have a big selection of Forgeworld stuff to go by. All IoM armies can ally with eachother. I've seen Necrons and Tyranids allied to great effect. I'd say only Tyranids really suffer in the ally department, and even they can do well without allies these days ( but the builds are few, I'll give you that. )
In the end it comes down to how many personal restrictions a player sets upon himself.
Almost over and somehow all the post decurion books can be played fine solo. Worse this means that if I take ally to a bad army, and my oppont will tak ally for his good army, the gap between us will only get wider.
Eldar or marines can have powerful combos, but they don't have to be playable. Only thing worse would be if IG was only playable with FW.
BUT guard aren't bad at anything.
No fast moving objectiv takers. No resilient units, no good anti tank units, no ways to counter LoW. No ability to counter FMC. They sure are not bad, just fine as long as opponents don't use drop pods, grav, D weapons, meq , dakka tyrants or other FMC, no WK , no NDKs, no cent stars and somehow the mission played is not maelstorms.
Runic wrote: Which is why I said that I consider the age of monocodice armies mostly over instead of "completely."
Yeah, it's mostly over! Except, y'know, the three or four newest books...
I know Eldar and Necrons are devastating on their own, what are these 2 other books that do better mono than with allies you speak of?
Space Marines only have the Gladius, without it they hardly hold a candle to the top tier tournament lists on average mono, and I find with allies they are so, so much more efficient than without them. Gladius also gets stomped by some builds. It does a bit better if you ally a Knight/Assassin with it, and then it's no longer a monocodex army. Admech? Flesh Tearers Strike Force makes them infinitely better.
Almost over and somehow all the post decurion books can be played fine solo.
Maybe on your competitive level... all quite relative.
But, pretty much all advice has now been given. The guard isn't very efficient solo except with a few builds. That's how it is. I for one listed the options a player realistically has earlier. If there's one thing I've seen in practice in my 13 years of wargaming it's that people who focus on the solutions usually become better players ( and more fun to be around... ) than the ones who focus on the problems.
Wow, thank you for all the replies and support, I had not expected this.
I would like to put down a couple of quick notifiers in response to a couple of posts though:
Firstly, to whomever suggested that I drop the Heavy Bolters in my Veteran sections: I can see where you are coming from, a concentration of lasguns and the capitalising of the FRFSRF order. However I find that the heavy bolter actually augments the sections firepower despite this. A section set up in an area of cover can inflict an extra 1.25 wounds on average against an MEQ unit, even if FRFSRF within 12", and can also reach out further.
Secondly I heard a call to drop my Meltas. Sadly I can not as these are the only real AT weapons that my army currently possesses, baring the Destroyer of course, and I need them. Imperial Guard anti tank is currently in the "Might as well not exist" phase that the Orks went through.
Thirdly I am looking in to the inquisition and Allies rules and I feel that the Inquisition may be a way to continue. Thankyou for the help people
Don't underestimate the ability of a solid force multiplier when it comes to your anti tank. Guard AT (with the exception of the Paskisher obviously) suffers overwhelmingly from being BS3. That's why Lascannons make such good baseline weapons for marines and bad ones for guard.
When it comes to things like Divination buffs, a liability for guard (vehicle squadrons) becomes a strength, as you can apply Twin-linked or 4++ to the whole squad. My inquisition list is built to maximize cheap warp charges. I've got two on Coteaz, one on Ordo Xenos, one each on two bare bones Warband squads with 1 psyker and 2 henchmen, and 1 from my Astropath giving me 6 charges at an average of 40 points per charge. That's Eldar level psychic points efficiency, if not better.
But by far the easiest way to up your anti tank power and your objective claiming power is to transport those vets. Drop the Heavy Bolter and Camo and you've got nearly enough points for an inquisitorial Rhino to cart them around in and get them in melta range.
As an aside, one of my biggest curiosities is seeing how that ridiculous new Librarius Conclave would do combined with a pure guard army. Their only weakness with space marines is they run out of stuff to buff after a while, and they lack places to hide. The IG has both of those two things to offer in spades.
626, I have no idea why they destroyed Chaos the way that they did, and while I think they can still build a scary list to play in casual obviously they are not looking to play strong in a tournament (to make them what they should be it requires far to many points).
I would love to see chaos marines have FNP and a 6++ save at all times (some of the regular marines ar 10000 years old... they didn't make it that way just because of an armor save)... furthermore, I would like to see each of the marine vehicles in their line up, or here is an idea... make traitor guard a real thing and not a forge world thing. Also, I think it is high time that they allow for battle brother alliance with marines, as it is not unheard of for even a company size element to go rogue... which would make them traitors, so by default Chaos. Granted if they went that route there would have to be something in the rules that prohibited characters from SM codex, so you would get chapter traits... but that would be it, and there would be no bonuses from associated characters.
There is a ton of possibility for casual play, and while maybe in tournaments it will not be viable, but for playing with friends and pick up games the options are limitless... remember the rules are a guideline, and upon agreement they can be modified.
I will say that there are some issues because I am a casual player while at the same time a tournament player, and it is unfortunate that there are some armies that as of right now can not handle some of the new "top tier" armies.
I do think though that there is no such thing as a top tier army or a bottom tier army... because I could easily build a necron army that could not beat anything. I think we need to look past the codex power and instead look at build power, because there are definitely top tier army builds... but when we are talking about one or two lists from the "best" codices I question them being the power houses they are made out to be.
This Guard thing made me want to try and make a mixed SM-AM list, just for fun (note: i don't own the IG models, so it's all theoryhammer).
So I made this reasoning based on what I know and what I understood of IG from this thread.
What is SM lacking? Bodies, specialization and tanks.
What IG lacks? Ability to put their squshy humies where they want to be.
CT: Imperial Fists or SoT
HQ: Librarian ML2 termi armor SS 100 (Divination on blob/devastators, or you can try and go for an Invisible ATSKNF mini blob)
Troops:
Tac sqd: 10 men, HB, PG, Combi-Plasma, Drop Pod 210 ( obj camping)
Tac sqd: 10 men, HB, PG, Combi-Plasma, Drop Pod 210 ( obj camping)
FA
Stormtalon: skyhammer ML 115 (wee bit of AA)
Drop pod 35
Drop pod 35
HS
Devastators, 4HB (or something heavier losing the tac squads' HBs) 110 (general heavy weapons. given the quantity of melta in the IG allies i went for anti-infantry loadout)
TFC 100 (good for bolstering guardsmen blob's cover)
ALLIED IG
HQ CCS 4 meltas, carapace armor 108 (goes in pod and very probably pop a tank)
I do have to say that this thread has given me more solid tactical advice on how to use Guard than all of the AM thread in the tactics forums put together. Medusa gun carriages+Servo skulls.... brilliant stuff!
1) CCS costs 60 points. They can offer the 3 best orders in the game. PCS costs 30. They get the least powerful three and can only order 1 unit a turn vs two. CCS also gives you the incredibly powerful regimental advisors. Pcs is also Obsec. Why would you suicide drop melta the ccs and give the pcs a vox?
2) Battlecannon Russ with Heavy bolters-this one actually made me laugh out loud. You're in the Guard now, son, this ain't some namby pamby space marine army where upgrades to tanks work! That Battlecannon is Ordnance, i hope you like snap firing maggot! I recommend you switch that tank to a Plasmacutioner so it can blow itself up and save your opponent the trouble!
3) 4 meltas in a veteran squad NOPE.
4) infantry squad with no special or heavy weapons but an expensive commissar and a Voxcaster. "Orders coming through the vox sir, he says to kill the enemy!" "With WHAT?" *shot in head by commissar seconds before ork charge crashes into the line*
I would like to put down a couple of quick notifiers in response to a couple of posts though:
Firstly, to whomever suggested that I drop the Heavy Bolters in my Veteran sections: I can see where you are coming from, a concentration of lasguns and the capitalising of the FRFSRF order. However I find that the heavy bolter actually augments the sections firepower despite this. A section set up in an area of cover can inflict an extra 1.25 wounds on average against an MEQ unit, even if FRFSRF within 12", and can also reach out further.
Secondly I heard a call to drop my Meltas. Sadly I can not as these are the only real AT weapons that my army currently possesses, baring the Destroyer of course, and I need them. Imperial Guard anti tank is currently in the "Might as well not exist" phase that the Orks went through.
Thirdly I am looking in to the inquisition and Allies rules and I feel that the Inquisition may be a way to continue. Thankyou for the help people
Well the more you make poor choices, like deliberately taking Heavy Bolters when they haven't mathematically been good in god knows how long, it's no wonder you end up with a Guard army that does poor. That's not Tactical Marines being superior to a bunch of troops at all. Tactical Marines really only have ONE good loadout and nobody uses them except to get free Razorbacks or to be "fluffy". All my Tacticals currently represent Sternguard for that reason.
1) CCS costs 60 points. They can offer the 3 best orders in the game. PCS costs 30. They get the least powerful three and can only order 1 unit a turn vs two. CCS also gives you the incredibly powerful regimental advisors. Pcs is also Obsec. Why would you suicide drop melta the ccs and give the pcs a vox?
2) Battlecannon Russ with Heavy bolters-this one actually made me laugh out loud. You're in the Guard now, son, this ain't some namby pamby space marine army where upgrades to tanks work! That Battlecannon is Ordnance, i hope you like snap firing maggot! I recommend you switch that tank to a Plasmacutioner so it can blow itself up and save your opponent the trouble!
3) 4 meltas in a veteran squad NOPE.
4) infantry squad with no special or heavy weapons but an expensive commissar and a Voxcaster. "Orders coming through the vox sir, he says to kill the enemy!" "With WHAT?" *shot in head by commissar seconds before ork charge crashes into the line*
1) then i'll do vice versa
2) I forgot that the LRBT is ordnance
3) they'll be suicide dropping, why not? or is it battlescribe who put the options wrong?
4) then i'll take out something like SM's HB to give them ACs or something.
I would like to put down a couple of quick notifiers in response to a couple of posts though:
Firstly, to whomever suggested that I drop the Heavy Bolters in my Veteran sections: I can see where you are coming from, a concentration of lasguns and the capitalising of the FRFSRF order. However I find that the heavy bolter actually augments the sections firepower despite this. A section set up in an area of cover can inflict an extra 1.25 wounds on average against an MEQ unit, even if FRFSRF within 12", and can also reach out further.
Secondly I heard a call to drop my Meltas. Sadly I can not as these are the only real AT weapons that my army currently possesses, baring the Destroyer of course, and I need them. Imperial Guard anti tank is currently in the "Might as well not exist" phase that the Orks went through.
Thirdly I am looking in to the inquisition and Allies rules and I feel that the Inquisition may be a way to continue. Thankyou for the help people
Well the more you make poor choices, like deliberately taking Heavy Bolters when they haven't mathematically been good in god knows how long, it's no wonder you end up with a Guard army that does poor. That's not Tactical Marines being superior to a bunch of troops at all. Tactical Marines really only have ONE good loadout and nobody uses them except to get free Razorbacks or to be "fluffy". All my Tacticals currently represent Sternguard for that reason.
Aye, they may not be the best but as I posted they inflict an average of 1.25 extra wounds against an MEQ than another Lasgun, and that is assuming FRFSRF at sub 12". Beyond 12"/within 12" with no FRFSRF they are putting an extra 1.75 wounds on the same unit and beyond 12" with no FRFSRF they are putting an extra 2.25 units on the target.
Sadly I lack Autocannnons right now but steps are being taken.... Anyway though I have just downloaded the Inquisition codex. Hopefully this will help.
You can keep posting the info on HBs, but at the end of the day they are just not that good on IG squads. Much better options out there (AC or LC or no heavy at all are better).
If you like them aesthetically or for fluff reasons, no reason not to go for it. But otherwise I would heed the advice if you want a better performing IG list.
Also, Chimeras for the vets. That's pretty much a requirement and they can rock when popping shots out the top hatch. X3 special weapons is awesome.
This. I never feared HBs that my friend took in his lists. It was the autocannons and the lascannons that wrecked my transports, followed by leman Russ blasts...
I'm joining the voice that HB are just not worth it, they cost too much and do too little.
Luckly, converting them to autocannons is as simple as adding a solid straw or the likes to make an extended barrel-and autocannons are just leagues above them.
Also, mixing meltas (rushing forward) and heavy weapons+sentries (keeping cover) at one squad is basically wasting points. a team need to either hog the back lines-or rush forward.
So either tool up backline
The CCS is also of questionable value considering you don't have many infantry to give orders to anyway, and do not reserve.
Also, why is your tank commander manning a blast-based russ? its a waste of his BS.
It surprises me that people find IG such a weak codex.In my personal experience,other than cheesy death stars and the newest codices taken to the extreme,we can at the very least have a decent chance fighting everything that is thrown at us even without allies or using FW units.Yes,the codex is bland,yes,basically half of its units are unusable in any remotely competitive scene and yes,we have mobility and durability issues.On the other hand,we have excellent firepower,can easily present a wall of armor that any non tailored or cheesy list will find hard to crack and can still choose to flood the board with bodies,special/heavy weapons and slug it out.
As for the OP,i think a major problem is that you have fallen for the classic mistake all of us made at some point;excessive upgrades that are simply not worth it.For example,the only upgrades our tanks need are dozer blades and sponson/hull weapons on non ordnance variants.The rest are either worthless from the get go or too expensive for what they offer.Assuming you are using ABG rules for your tanks,all those upgrades cost what,90 points?That's more than half the cost of the tank to begin with!
Same thing with your infantry.Medics seem nice,but they give FnP to t3 models;how often is this going to come into play?Krak grenades are unnecessary to a unit that can take 3 BS4 meltas AND 10 melta bombs+a demo charge for 30 points.Heavy bolters are a horrible weapon even for anti Geq duty,and a waste of the veterans BS4;as others have said before,autocannons are much better for their higher Str and the ability to glance transports.
Finally,try to invest some money on Wyverns and Chimeras;the former are absolutely ludicrous against anything that isnt T6+ or a vehicle (my buddy playing GK has a hilarious fear of them despite fielding an army of 2+ saves models,and the rest of the guys just cringe every time they see them fielded ),while the latter will boost the survivability of your veterans and give them some mobility for objective grabbing and midfield presence.Also,i d suggest trying the Pasknisher+Executioner combo;its by far the most effective variant combination we have and can tackle pretty much anything non stupid thrown against you.
I would like to put down a couple of quick notifiers in response to a couple of posts though:
Firstly, to whomever suggested that I drop the Heavy Bolters in my Veteran sections: I can see where you are coming from, a concentration of lasguns and the capitalising of the FRFSRF order. However I find that the heavy bolter actually augments the sections firepower despite this. A section set up in an area of cover can inflict an extra 1.25 wounds on average against an MEQ unit, even if FRFSRF within 12", and can also reach out further.
Secondly I heard a call to drop my Meltas. Sadly I can not as these are the only real AT weapons that my army currently possesses, baring the Destroyer of course, and I need them. Imperial Guard anti tank is currently in the "Might as well not exist" phase that the Orks went through.
Thirdly I am looking in to the inquisition and Allies rules and I feel that the Inquisition may be a way to continue. Thankyou for the help people
Well the more you make poor choices, like deliberately taking Heavy Bolters when they haven't mathematically been good in god knows how long, it's no wonder you end up with a Guard army that does poor. That's not Tactical Marines being superior to a bunch of troops at all. Tactical Marines really only have ONE good loadout and nobody uses them except to get free Razorbacks or to be "fluffy". All my Tacticals currently represent Sternguard for that reason.
Aye, they may not be the best but as I posted they inflict an average of 1.25 extra wounds against an MEQ than another Lasgun, and that is assuming FRFSRF at sub 12". Beyond 12"/within 12" with no FRFSRF they are putting an extra 1.75 wounds on the same unit and beyond 12" with no FRFSRF they are putting an extra 2.25 units on the target.
Sadly I lack Autocannnons right now but steps are being taken.... Anyway though I have just downloaded the Inquisition codex. Hopefully this will help.
The Autocannon does .04 less MEQ (what you seem to be jealous of) damage but a foot further. You could theoretically kill more before MEQ actually advances. Couple in that S7 > S5 for ID potential and vehicular damage, and that it's relatively easy to make a Heavy Bolter into an Autocannon or Counts-As, and there's essentially no excuse on your end for your misinformed choices.
Martel732 wrote: Meqs are honestly the least of the IG's problems. Crap like Wraiths and TWC are really the threat.
MEQ is what the OP is complaining about. Specifically, how his Guard lack grenades and ATSNKF, both of which don't really matter much. Especially Grenades. If I could pay less to have them I'd entirely do that.
Martel732 wrote: Meqs are honestly the least of the IG's problems. Crap like Wraiths and TWC are really the threat.
MEQ is what the OP is complaining about. Specifically, how his Guard lack grenades and ATSNKF, both of which don't really matter much. Especially Grenades. If I could pay less to have them I'd entirely do that.
I know. That's why I posted that. I know meqs are actually pretty bad because my BA can actually beat them. But most vanilla marine lists don't have too many meqs anymore except in Skyhammer formations.
Thyhadras wrote: 626, I have no idea why they destroyed Chaos the way that they did, and while I think they can still build a scary list to play in casual obviously they are not looking to play strong in a tournament (to make them what they should be it requires far to many points).
I think it wasn't just that 3.5 CSM Codex was a powerhouse, but rather that the codex allegedly from what I have heard that the codex used to have legion rules similar to Loyalist CT, but for every legion and more to do with FoC swapping.
Then came the EoT campaign which was supposedly a campaign in which GW created a worldwide campaign centered around the 13th Black Crusade and they said which ever army loyalist or heretical that would win would be recorded in the official fluff with fluff advancement from that point..
What happened was I predict and assume that people went crazy competitive both from Chaos and IoM, but since CSM are like what Eldar are perceived to be, CSM was slaughtering their way through..
GW creative directional team did not take this very well..
...And so from what I have heard was that Chaos were doing so well that GW decided to cancel the campaign..
Then 4th ed. CSM codex came out and well... If you want to check out threads between 2007 and 2011 you can see the fan-base dissatisfaction..
To the OP, I do feel your pain though I think what happened to guard was that guard were the formation faction through the use of the platoon mechanics in-built in the codex before formations were a thing, but as time has passed by and that more and more codex's were given more formations then its slowly corroded the guard play style as other armies do what the guard to but better now imo, an example of this is that SM can get free transports in their formations which means that they can fill up their points on other things meanwhile Guard still have to pay for bodies and Co..
I honestly would not fret too much though as I can see guard when their new codex comes getting free bodies for picking formations or at least free HWT
I must say myself that I have been quite bitter about the game for a while now, but its really hard to sympathize with the game when the game lets a proportion of my opponents cram in formations left, right and center and spam for Invis on their super heavies... And I have NLCSM40k and Orks..
Well.. best play unbound with two meks with KFF in two Stompas.. Because that apparently just as casual and fun as a Waithknight with Invisibility (and the only chance I feel as I can to at least compete with few in my area imo)..
Thyhadras wrote: 626, I have no idea why they destroyed Chaos the way that they did, and while I think they can still build a scary list to play in casual obviously they are not looking to play strong in a tournament (to make them what they should be it requires far to many points).
I think it wasn't just that 3.5 CSM Codex was a powerhouse, but rather that the codex allegedly from what I have heard that the codex used to have legion rules similar to Loyalist CT, but for every legion and more to do with FoC swapping.
Then came the EoT campaign which was supposedly a campaign in which GW created a worldwide campaign centered around the 13th Black Crusade and they said which ever army loyalist or heretical that would win would be recorded in the official fluff with fluff advancement from that point..
What happened was I predict and assume that people went crazy competitive both from Chaos and IoM, but since CSM are like what Eldar are perceived to be, CSM was slaughtering their way through..
GW creative directional team did not take this very well..
...And so from what I have heard was that Chaos were doing so well that GW decided to cancel the campaign..
Then 4th ed. CSM codex came out and well... If you want to check out threads between 2007 and 2011 you can see the fan-base dissatisfaction..
Not to derail this too much, but from what I recall Mr.Kelly telling some of us, the big problems were;
1. The story literally was not making much sense overall, as the IoM was completely demolishing Chaos in the 'space war', but Chaos ran absolutely roughshod over the IoM in general on the ground, in fairly good part to the Xenos 'mercenary' forces almost entirely supporting the Chaos side. (even some Eldar were caught fighting for the Chaos side!)
2. The GW stores led the way in the Imperium getting absolutely killed on the ground... Mostly because the vast majority of Space Marine players who play in GW stores, (which had to record all game results by default!), were/are kids. I know at my local GW at the time, Marines overall were only winning something stupid like 10% of their games, simply because we had maybe half a dozen non-Little Timmy Marine players.
3. Rampant cheating... Because anyone could simply go onto the Eye of Terror website and e-mail in their 'game results', up to 10 games per day. You'd get plenty of people "playing games", that their army would magically always win, and they'd send these "results" into the website.
Hell, I can recall a couple locals who'd actively brag about how they'd uploaded the max number of "results" each and every day, just to screw with the system... The same thing happened with the Armageddon campaign too.
While player-influenced campaigns are cool, GW has found out that it simply ends up getting pooched by a decent portion of the community who take the opportunity to act like dbags.
As for the 4th ed codex bastardisation, it was nothing more malicious than GW had decided to go in a new design direction of 'simplified but fluffy' army building. Hence the likes of Dark Angels getting bolt pistols + grenades for free, and their squads being either 5 or 10 men, etc...
It was just a really badly implemented idea, (it went way too far into it's simplification of rules/options - thank-you Jervis!), and after the backlash over the Eldar/Dark Angels/CSM's/Orks, GW decided to change design philosophies and go for the more rules & more options of the 5th edition codices.
I've been playing tank guard for a long time, and I agree with a lot of what MoO has been saying. It feels like everything that was cool or special was taken from us. Want shovel loads of tanks? Play eldar, marines, or dark angels and get invuln or cover saves on everything! Like shooting a whole bunch of dice, enough to overwhelm any incoming force? why not try any of those, necrons, or tau? Trying to turtle up? Dark angels and Tau overwatch with the force of a thousand exploding suns!
But alas, I have fallen back on an ancient and powerful technique, something that only the orks can muster up as rivalry. The powerblob. Three LVL2. primaris psykers, three priests, three techpriests, and all 15 servitors to go along with them.
Its the only Guardy thing I can really find that works on its own. artillery guard is soft and they took away a bunch of the cool options and gave us the wyvern... ugh...
Powerblobs went back to 3rd or 4th edition (I dunno, I never played them, but my buddy did) and no one else can really field anything cool like that. Just a wave of bayonets and servo arms driven by faith, righteous zeal, and wiggling your weird mechanicus winky at it. So when wraithknights have you down, and you feel like all of the armies stole all of the nice things you used to like, remember, not even orks can field 18 power fists in blob of (hopefully, with good psyker rolls) 50 4+ invuln guys. We've still got this going for us.
Eh, this is why I'm just making a fandex of a combined IG/Skiitari faction. When something gets as broken as 40k, may as well create the army you want to play. Besides, Battle Zeppleins! And gas-masked soldiers with beam cannons and lightning guns!
@MoO: Looking into the future, eveuntually Guard will get their day in the sun, where we will have the best and brightest new toys.....and then have 90% of the Dakka Forums complain about how OP we are every single day and how underpowered the Necrons and Eldar are. I've only been in this game for 3 years, and it isn't that hard to spot how cyclical this is. Until GW get's off their collective rear end and actually thinks however we are stuck with the cycle, and might as well make the most of it. Or Homebrew. Or wait until GW collapses, hope that somebody decent gets the IP, or create a living rulebook made by gamers from all around (Actually that is a horrifying idea, forgot I said anything). Just try to make the best of it through the rough patches.
Just one more tactical trick, quite obvious, but anyway.
Get Drop Pods one way or another, and stick Veterans in there with 3 meltaguns and Democharges. Also put a Command Squad in a pod with 4 Meltaguns.
That's cheap squads that throw a S8 AP2 large blast in someones face instantly when they arrive and blast 3 Meltaguns while at it, and they also have Meltabombs. With Orders it becomes quite effective, and they are cheap enough to bring back their points 90% of the time.
I've tabled Necrons with that setup being supported by SM Sicarans, IG Wyverns & Vendettas.
Not a bad plan, but he's not too keen on Allies. Some Inquisition or Assassins are one thing, he doesn't seem to want to have a load of Marines supporting him.
If I'm wrong, the best options would probably be Blood Angels (for that detachment with crazy amounts of Fast Attack slots for the most Pods) or Dark Angels (not as many, but up to 3 in a CAD that'll give you access to Azrael for invulnerable Platoon fun! ).
It's worth mentioning that this is generally considered dickish powergaming it would seem. Not that anyone could necessarily complain if you're just compensating for a disadvantage, but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
Bit late to the party, but have you tried using the Apoc formations? I'd say you'll need opponent's permission, but so many of the Apocalypse formations have been recycled into 40K already that most I've asked have been cool with it.
Ambushing Veterans, endless waves of Infantry, many fun things
I would like to put down a couple of quick notifiers in response to a couple of posts though:
Firstly, to whomever suggested that I drop the Heavy Bolters in my Veteran sections: I can see where you are coming from, a concentration of lasguns and the capitalising of the FRFSRF order. However I find that the heavy bolter actually augments the sections firepower despite this. A section set up in an area of cover can inflict an extra 1.25 wounds on average against an MEQ unit, even if FRFSRF within 12", and can also reach out further.
Secondly I heard a call to drop my Meltas. Sadly I can not as these are the only real AT weapons that my army currently possesses, baring the Destroyer of course, and I need them. Imperial Guard anti tank is currently in the "Might as well not exist" phase that the Orks went through.
Thirdly I am looking in to the inquisition and Allies rules and I feel that the Inquisition may be a way to continue. Thankyou for the help people
Well the more you make poor choices, like deliberately taking Heavy Bolters when they haven't mathematically been good in god knows how long, it's no wonder you end up with a Guard army that does poor. That's not Tactical Marines being superior to a bunch of troops at all. Tactical Marines really only have ONE good loadout and nobody uses them except to get free Razorbacks or to be "fluffy". All my Tacticals currently represent Sternguard for that reason.
Aye, they may not be the best but as I posted they inflict an average of 1.25 extra wounds against an MEQ than another Lasgun, and that is assuming FRFSRF at sub 12". Beyond 12"/within 12" with no FRFSRF they are putting an extra 1.75 wounds on the same unit and beyond 12" with no FRFSRF they are putting an extra 2.25 units on the target.
Sadly I lack Autocannnons right now but steps are being taken.... Anyway though I have just downloaded the Inquisition codex. Hopefully this will help.
The Autocannon does .04 less MEQ (what you seem to be jealous of) damage but a foot further. You could theoretically kill more before MEQ actually advances. Couple in that S7 > S5 for ID potential and vehicular damage, and that it's relatively easy to make a Heavy Bolter into an Autocannon or Counts-As, and there's essentially no excuse on your end for your misinformed choices.
Aye, I get this. I am looking at following the advice and upgrading the HB's to AC's but there is the wee but at the same time not so wee problem of my counts as HB's not quite being big enough to be excused as AC's.... Think Bren Gun/MG42 size.
The AC's will possibly have to wait until I can afford some 2PDR's/37mm PAK 36's.
CrashGordon94 wrote:Not a bad plan, but he's not too keen on Allies. Some Inquisition or Assassins are one thing, he doesn't seem to want to have a load of Marines supporting him.
If I'm wrong, the best options would probably be Blood Angels (for that detachment with crazy amounts of Fast Attack slots for the most Pods) or Dark Angels (not as many, but up to 3 in a CAD that'll give you access to Azrael for invulnerable Platoon fun! ).
It's worth mentioning that this is generally considered dickish powergaming it would seem. Not that anyone could necessarily complain if you're just compensating for a disadvantage, but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
The problem I have with taking major forces like Marines as allies (apart from the costs involved) is that I really do not like the whole idea of 'the Guard are being hammered but fear not! For there is a contingent of special snowflake Marines inbound to save the day!'. This whole 'The Space Marines save the day' thing leaves a kind of bitter taste in my mouth (yes I did try it once, a year back).
Now Assassins and Inquisition on the other hand make far more sense. You can see an assassin like a Vindicaire being operating in the same area or in my case essentially being an elite sniper whom is attached to the task force. The same with the Inquisition, an elite force of specialists led by a powerful commander requisitioning the company/platoon to aid them in their mission.
In the fluff though, that's exactly how it goes most of the time. I just started reading Promethean Sun and ( spoiler )
Spoiler:
that's exactly what happens.
But for me that's what I really like about the guard. Mere mortals battling the horrors of the galaxy against insurmountable odds, each one expendable, with a life expectancy of a few seconds.
*bitter laughter*
if feels good to hear some support from a Marine player.
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),while the latter will boost the survivability of your veterans and give them some mobility for objective grabbing and midfield presence.Also,i d suggest trying the Pasknisher+Executioner combo;its by far the most effective variant combination we have and can tackle pretty much anything non stupid thrown against you.
