Probably go with Eldar here. I’m not sure what the numbers look like, but all of the Eldar might actually have numbers over the Tau.
But what I think seals it is the psychic supremacy. The farseers are just going to pick the path that leads to victory. It’s a pretty big strategic advantage.
This is also a fight that the Tau can’t rely on a technologic advantage to win. At best they have parity.
Eldar. It's almost impossible to have a fight with eldar they don't want, and tau warp travel is notoriously slow. They would never be able to attack the eldar directly.
Definitely the Eldar. Just imagine if something like the Great Exodus happened within Tau Space (the event extinguished all suns within sixty light years!). I'm not sure exactly how big the Tau Empire is but I'd imagine this would take out most of it, or at least the core.
The Tau are already limited to a specific region of space, which makes them extremely vulnerable to something like this.
Tau might give them trouble in a ground war but the Void war goes entirely to the Eldar. and that's the important one.
Tau worlds are far easier pickings if none can reinforce it and Eldar isolate and take them on planet by planet, working rounf to cut the core worlds off and the supply of food and such from the outer sections.
eventualy hitting the now weaker core worlds who have been probably starving for abit.
Yea, I wasn't sure if sixty light years would be enough to cover the whole empire but it does look rather small from the in-universe maps. Either way, if six Craftworlds can extinguish suns within such an area, then the entire Eldar race combined would probably be capable of something even more devastating.
And 60 light-years might not sound like much on a galactic scale but it does cover a fairly large number of star systems. The Tau Empire seems pretty compact.
I Chose Tau because in the board game the Tau rely on technology to remove cover/jink saves. And the Eldar pretty much entirely rely on Jink/Cover saves.
Amplify this into a space battle, because I have no idea about Eldar fluff ships and never played Battle Fleet gothic but I would assume Tau could Hold their own.
Regardless, given time the Tau are the biggest threat to the imperium and the Eldar.
The Tau are renowned for technological advancement/ refinement in the face of their enemies. When they encounter a significant threat they will adapt to best deal with that threat.
Like the Imperium, the Eldar are stuck in a decaying cycle where they just try to maintain what they have and the way of warfare they developed Millennia ago.
What I believe would happen:
Eldar would win a lot at first due to numerical superiority but the combined research of the entire Tau empire would develop tactics and technology to counter the Eldar way of war.
In the end (even if most of the outer Tau worlds were lost), the Tau would prevail having developed a hard-counter to the Eldar.
The Tau are renowned for technological advancement/ refinement in the face of their enemies. When they encounter a significant threat they will adapt to best deal with that threat.
Like the Imperium, the Eldar are stuck in a decaying cycle where they just try to maintain what they have and the way of warfare they developed Millennia ago.
What I believe would happen: Eldar would win a lot at first due to numerical superiority but the combined research of the entire Tau empire would develop tactics and technology to counter the Eldar way of war. In the end (even if most of the outer Tau worlds were lost), the Tau would prevail having developed a hard-counter to the Eldar.
Wat.
In order for anybody to reach Eldar tech they would need major advancement millennia beyond that of the Imperium's. It is physically impossible for the Tau to counter the Eldar as they lack any understanding of the Warp or any way to manipulate it. Not only can Eldar dictate every battle as they will appear anywhere they want, whenever they want- but Seers can manipulate the skeins of fate itself. As long as Chaos doesn't step in and assault the Seers' souls, they can physically rig the war into their favor completely.
Plus some of the most basic weaponry the Eldar use both on the ground and in-void battles fires warp rifts that are physically impossible to armor against- the only defense is void shields.
That is overlooked in the initial question, as it assumes Elder have the capability to unify their craft-worlds to attack a non-Slaanesh target.
Wonder if Tau can find a way to disrupt Soul-Stones and what effect that might have on this hypothetical battle.
nomotog wrote: Do the eldar really have the ability to fight a full on war?
Well they're expected to fight the final battle against Chaos. Not to mention that the "dying race" is largely bs considering there's billions of them, and that's not counting their Wraithbone ghost legions.
Amplify this into a space battle, because I have no idea about Eldar fluff ships and never played Battle Fleet Gothic but I would assume Tau could hold their own.
Tau ships are craptastic in BFG. When they invented new ships to improve their void capabilities, they began to make ships that are craptastic on a different level rather than make any advancement.
One the other hand, Eldar ships (especially Craftworld ships) are OP, maybe the second best after the Necrons.
I vote for Eldar as they are leagues ahead of the Tau in all respects. The war would end with an overwhelming Eldar victory before the Tau could pull their adaptation stunt, so that's out of game. Also, this adaptation doesn't really work nowadays (khm... Stormsurge anyone?).
Ghazkuul wrote:I Chose Tau because in the board game the Tau rely on technology to remove cover/jink saves. And the Eldar pretty much entirely rely on Jink/Cover saves.
Amplify this into a space battle, because I have no idea about Eldar fluff ships and never played Battle Fleet gothic but I would assume Tau could Hold their own.
Regardless, given time the Tau are the biggest threat to the imperium and the Eldar.
Otto Weston wrote:I voted Tau and now I will explain.
The Tau are renowned for technological advancement/ refinement in the face of their enemies. When they encounter a significant threat they will adapt to best deal with that threat.
Like the Imperium, the Eldar are stuck in a decaying cycle where they just try to maintain what they have and the way of warfare they developed Millennia ago.
What I believe would happen:
Eldar would win a lot at first due to numerical superiority but the combined research of the entire Tau empire would develop tactics and technology to counter the Eldar way of war.
In the end (even if most of the outer Tau worlds were lost), the Tau would prevail having developed a hard-counter to the Eldar.
OK, I can see those points of view. Thanks for posting some minority opinions.
When they clash on the battlefield/table, the Tau do have some nasty tricks. I could see them winning some battles. Just not the war.
The advancement vs. static angle is one that I hadn’t considered. The Eldar are not inventing anything new. If (and I think this is a huge if) the Tau could pull something out, like some sort of super-toxin that ate wraithbone, they might be able to pull a last minute victory. Ironically, that possible outcome in the strands of fate would probably be why the Eldar came over to snuff the Tau. But honestly, If they were getting close to a breakthrough, I think the Eldar are going to put some overwhelming fire on the center doing the research. And with the stakes as high as they are, some of the nasty world-breaking toys might come out of the box.
Of course, if this was a tau based hollywood blockbuster, it would totally work out for the plucky underdogs. The noble military holds off the overwhelming alien forces hoping for a miracle. The scientists rapidly try to deliver it. After about 2 hours of explosions and lab montages (possibly with a romantic sub-plot, and another half hour w/ the director’s cut) they create the macguffin, all the aliens fall over dead, and the credits roll.
After the credits we see a web-way portal open up and the Dark Eldar show up, but that’s another thread.
Hrmm I voted Eldar because while Tau space vessels do pack a lot of fire power. the Eldar would have mastery over where and under what circumstances such space battles took place. Not as much mastery as some people here give 'em credit for, but still substantial. That said the Tau would certainly adapt and surprise the Eldar on occasion, perhaps even finding away to counter (at least some what) the psychic might of the oodles of farseers. As much as I detest the Tau and their greater good I do see this fight as not quite so one-sided; more like initial advantage Eldar, Tau adapt (maybe even finding a reliable way to deal with holo-fields... annoying little prats) and then surprise the Eldar but in the end, the Eldar still win hands down as they can be almost as genocidal and ruthless as the Imperium, have a vast psychic advantage, vastly better space mobility and despite the rapid advance of Tau tech the Eldar still hold that advantage too.
Tau adaptability relies on fighting slow wars of attrition against the ponderous Imperium, the haphazard Orks and the steady encroachment of the Tyranids. They wouldn't have time to adapt 'wrathbone eating viruses' (and I don't remember biotech being a forte of the blueskins), because every Craftworld attacking at once would sweep through Tau space so fast they'd be a nasty stain on the floor.
Eldar can match them in a shooting war and utterly own them in close combat, psychic and naval warfare.
Tau adaptability relies on fighting slow wars of attrition against the ponderous Imperium, the haphazard Orks and the steady encroachment of the Tyranids. They wouldn't have time to adapt 'wrathbone eating viruses' (and I don't remember biotech being a forte of the blueskins), because every Craftworld attacking at once would sweep through Tau space so fast they'd be a nasty stain on the floor.
Eldar can match them in a shooting war and utterly own them in close combat, psychic and naval warfare.
I just pulled that invention out of nowhere. I was wracking my brain for something decisive enough to turn the tides, and frankly was grasping. Tau already have big enough guns to kill fragile Eldar, and have targeting stuff to help pin them down. So what else could they invent to turn the tides? Somehow attacking wraithbone, the core building block of most of the Eldar gear, was the only thing that came to mind.
Maybe some sort of lounge music that would disrupt the metal disciple that keeps them on the Path of the Warrior? Make their heads explode ala Mars Attacks?
Eldar on the other hand with their gateways and populations based on giant spaceships are perhaps the most maneuverable of all the races in 40k.
Any kind of conflict fought by the tau would be entirely defensive in nature.
Indeed - they have slow Warp travel AND no FTL communications.
The Tau have now developed better warships some of which can even match Imperial Navy vessels - but trying to be defeanisve against the Eldar is a challenge in itself.
The Eldar excel at hit and run battles where they can deploy overwhelming force and run away before reinforcements show up.
Eldar have little practice at large-scale attrition warfare, and the Tau have picked up lessons on that fighting large-scale battles with the Imperium.
The Eldar will have initial successes, but once the Tau figure out where the Eldar are coming from (remember kids that creating new webways isn't something the Eldar can do anymore), the Tau will be able to hit those positions and drive the Eldar back into their webway holes. If we're looking at a large-scale, long-term war, the Tau will be able to outlast the Eldar, if only because Tau get to have sex and reproduce whenever necessary.
Eldar on the other hand with their gateways and populations based on giant spaceships are perhaps the most maneuverable of all the races in 40k.
Any kind of conflict fought by the tau would be entirely defensive in nature.
Indeed - they have slow Warp travel AND no FTL communications.
The Tau have now developed better warships some of which can even match Imperial Navy vessels - but trying to be defeanisve against the Eldar is a challenge in itself.
Match a Lunar class cruiser maybe, not a Battle ship or any of the big ships they possess. there yet to deploy anything on the scale of firepower a Emperor class or such can put out.
EmpNortonII wrote: The Eldar excel at hit and run battles where they can deploy overwhelming force and run away before reinforcements show up.
Eldar have little practice at large-scale attrition warfare, and the Tau have picked up lessons on that fighting large-scale battles with the Imperium.
The Eldar will have initial successes, but once the Tau figure out where the Eldar are coming from (remember kids that creating new webways isn't something the Eldar can do anymore), the Tau will be able to hit those positions and drive the Eldar back into their webway holes. If we're looking at a large-scale, long-term war, the Tau will be able to outlast the Eldar, if only because Tau get to have sex and reproduce whenever necessary.
Not really - The Eldar have perfected their warfare over thousands of years................They don;t fight attrition and the Tau could not dictate the terms of engagment. They are equallty likely to redirect Ork Waaarghs as fight them themselves.
They will fight on their terms - theTau have had some minor, limited engagements against the great powers of the galaxy and learnt lessons yes but warfare against the entirety of the Eldar race would be akin to fighting the Imperium or the Necron Dynasties - short, brutal and one sided. There would be nothing the Tau as a minor Empire with a small, limited military and equally small reserves could do.
It would be like Earth Force fighting the Minbari - the only way they could win is if the Eldar let them.
EmpNortonII wrote: The Eldar excel at hit and run battles where they can deploy overwhelming force and run away before reinforcements show up.
Eldar have little practice at large-scale attrition warfare, and the Tau have picked up lessons on that fighting large-scale battles with the Imperium.
The Eldar will have initial successes, but once the Tau figure out where the Eldar are coming from (remember kids that creating new webways isn't something the Eldar can do anymore), the Tau will be able to hit those positions and drive the Eldar back into their webway holes. If we're looking at a large-scale, long-term war, the Tau will be able to outlast the Eldar, if only because Tau get to have sex and reproduce whenever necessary.
There won't be attrition warfare if the Tau can't bring their numbers to bear. The Eldar don't need to pop in and out of webway portals to win the war; they just have to win the battles in space, which would leave the Tau septs isolated. They could then wipe them out at will.
The Eldar also don't need to land troops on the planets the way the Imperium does. They have no interest in colonizing the Tau worlds (they already have maiden worlds and it's the Exodites who do the colonizing). Plus, the Eldar would possibly have superior numbers as they can hit isolated septs with the combined power of all of their Craftworlds. The Tau worlds can't fly around in space after all.
Reproduction also wouldn't really be a factor. It's been ten thousand years since the Fall and the Eldar are still alive and kicking, with a large number of Craftworlds. I doubt this war would last long enough for Tau reproduction to be a factor.
And that's without using any doomsday weapons, such as snuffing out a few suns.
Oh and if this makes the Eldar sound OP as hell, then that's because they are. That's how they survived the last 10k years after the Fall with their numbers and with their Craftworlds isolated. We're talking about their combined power here. And 10k years of stagnation sounds less like a problem when 10k years later they're still the most advanced race (with the possible exception of the Necrons).
A real war between all the eldar and tau where they would like to exterminate each other completely would not be about attrition warfare. It would be about if the eldar would dare to use their horrible ancient weapons that could destroy planets or worse. Tau starships are no match for eldar warships, and tau don't even come close to the really nasty eldar stuff.
All of the above. The Tau space vessels amount to piloting a leaky bathtub against vessels that can turn on a dime, turn invisible, fly like dogfighters while being capital ships, and pack plasma weaponry first built to destroy Necron warships.
The Tau are laughably outclassed in space combat against a single Craftworld and its resources, let alone Corsair fleets and multiple Craftworlds.
And it would be sort of pointless for them too, I'm sure the tau would agree to some sort of truce, especially as the eldar don't have any planets to capture.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Even if the Eldar DID curbstomp the Tau it'd still be a loss on their part because every casualty they suffer is a horrendous loss for their species.
Not for those who believe Ynnead will kill Slaanesh.
Psienesis wrote: The Tau are laughably outclassed in space combat against a single Craftworld and its resources, let alone Corsair fleets and multiple Craftworlds.
This. Not that the Tau have any means of finding and attacking a Craftworld, but if they did one should remember how well that worked for the IoM last time they tried - the loss of an entire Sector Fleet for no gain. Can the entire Tau Empire Navy match even a single Imperial Sector Fleet?
The Eldar would have no need to spend lives on ground battles since the Tau would quickly be left with no working starships.
Psienesis wrote: All of the above. The Tau space vessels amount to piloting a leaky bathtub against vessels that can turn on a dime, turn invisible, fly like dogfighters while being capital ships, and pack plasma weaponry first built to destroy Necron warships.
The Tau are laughably outclassed in space combat against a single Craftworld and its resources, let alone Corsair fleets and multiple Craftworlds.
If a single company of Space Wolves can destroy a craft world (or the Invaders chapter) it can't be all that difficult.
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oldzoggy wrote: A real war between all the eldar and tau where they would like to exterminate each other completely would not be about attrition warfare. It would be about if the eldar would dare to use their horrible ancient weapons that could destroy planets or worse. Tau starships are no match for eldar warships, and tau don't even come close to the really nasty eldar stuff.
Blowing up a star system is a feat the Tau have accomplished. Unlike the Eldar, they also may soon be capable of mass-producing the means. I don't think the Eldar are still capable of creating weapons of that magnitude.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: All of the above. The Tau space vessels amount to piloting a leaky bathtub against vessels that can turn on a dime, turn invisible, fly like dogfighters while being capital ships, and pack plasma weaponry first built to destroy Necron warships.
They're also made out of paper mache.
Eldar vessels don't travel through the warp. On the large scale, Eldar fleets are ALSO slower than the IoM... and because they rely on the webway, they are not guaranteed to arrive in advantageous positions- or to be able to retreat if a force blocks off their entryway. They're also incredibly susceptible to mines once you figure out where they came from.
While everyone likes to point out that Eldar are master manipulators and tricksters, people forget that the Eldar also do this to each other, and since an after-war situation is imaginable, they *will* do it to each other. Meanwhile, the Tau Empire is unified. Even Farsight is still a true believer in the Greater Good, even if he doesn't trust the Ethereals. The Tau have a unified command structure which will give them a big advantage over the Eldar.
If the Tau were a bigger empire and thus had all the resources (both in manpower and other), then based on their tech, I reckon they'd have the ability to win. But such as the empires stand, all the Craft Worlds vs the Tau would almost sure result in a Tau defeat. I saw 'all Craft World' and not 'all Eldar' because there are Eldar that don't live on the Craft Worlds and, from what little I know about them, don't really use much interplanetary travel (plus they don't get along hugely well with the Craft World Eldar). As an additional note, even if just the Tau's travel capabilities were to improve (whether it's weaponry, travel speed, etc), I reckon that would significantly improve their chances because it would allow them to consolidate and focus their forces and technology a hell of a lot better, which would give them at least a solid chance of winning.
Plus I don't think the Eldar's ability to manipulate the future due to farsight isn't as powerful as people seem to think because from what I've read in this thread, people seem to think it makes them near unbeatable. I don't think it's quite that strong (even though I will admit it is a fairly strong advantage).
You say no other factions will be involved, yet that is exactly what the Eldar would do if they needed too destroy the Tau for some reason.
They'd manipulate the IoM or nurture a particular system filled with Orks till the point a huge waaagh would be on the march, with the Tau territory being the first stop.
Let alone the Eldar being able to appear at key strategic points and lay traps around their web way portals to cripple any Tau advance, let alone just hiding within it. Elder could just destroy the eco system of all the Tau planets and let them die out in theory.
The only reason tau can continue their existence in the 40k universe is plot armour.
If any of the other races, eldar included, turned their full attention to the tau, then in the span of a couple of years it would all be over.
In a standard 40k tabletop game with equal points each side, the tau can handle themselves.
In the fluff however their empire is simply too small, and their resources too limited, to play with the big boys.
Add to this that the tau are, when compared to the eldar, inept at space travel and combat and lack any psychic assistance.
This makes for a very one sided affair in the eldar's favour.
Big Blind Bill wrote: The only reason tau can continue their existence in the 40k universe is plot armour.
This plot armour could possibly just be the result of protection by eldar some scemes. Eldar seem to like the tau for now, not including them in their plots would be strange.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would be really funny if the tau just came up with some special anti enemies of the eldar weapon in the near future.
[Edit] All thing the tau fight are enemies of the eldar already
EmpNortonII wrote: The Eldar excel at hit and run battles where they can deploy overwhelming force and run away before reinforcements show up.
Eldar have little practice at large-scale attrition warfare, and the Tau have picked up lessons on that fighting large-scale battles with the Imperium.
The Eldar will have initial successes, but once the Tau figure out where the Eldar are coming from (remember kids that creating new webways isn't something the Eldar can do anymore), the Tau will be able to hit those positions and drive the Eldar back into their webway holes. If we're looking at a large-scale, long-term war, the Tau will be able to outlast the Eldar, if only because Tau get to have sex and reproduce whenever necessary.
The Eldar have hundreds of thousands of years experience. The Eldar were fighting large scale wars long before the Tau even evolved. They have perfected the art of war in all of its aspects over millennia of warfare. Add to that the fact that Eldar Farseers are capable of predicting the future, the fact that the Tau have much slower spaceships and communications, the fact that the Tau Empire only consists of a handful of worlds which means that the Eldar likely have numerical superiority and the fact that Eldar technology is far beyond that of the Tau. It all becomes quite clear. The Dark Eldar were capable of hitting a Tau world and stripping it of all live before the Tau even knew what was happening or could send reinforcements. A war against all Eldar Craftworlds united would be much like that, except that it would happen on every Tau planet at once. There would not even be much of a war, it would be over very quickly.
The Tau are hopeful and growing whereas the more ancient powers are all declining and collapsing. But at the moment, the Tau Empire is about the size of Ultramar and just one of the many thousands of minor Xenos realms in the galaxy. They just don't have the power to take on any of the other 40k factions fluffwise.
Psienesis wrote: All of the above. The Tau space vessels amount to piloting a leaky bathtub against vessels that can turn on a dime, turn invisible, fly like dogfighters while being capital ships, and pack plasma weaponry first built to destroy Necron warships.
The Tau are laughably outclassed in space combat against a single Craftworld and its resources, let alone Corsair fleets and multiple Craftworlds.
If a single company of Space Wolves can destroy a craft world (or the Invaders chapter) it can't be all that difficult.
It is. The fact that only a handful of Craftworlds have been destroyed over the millennia attests to this. A SW company destroying a craftworld is just an example of horrible fluff writing similar to kind of the stories where 5 marines conquer entire worlds yet entire chapters can't do so in the next. Nonetheless, we don't know the specifics of this fight, so the Craftworld may have already been severely weakened before the SW assault.
oldzoggy wrote: A real war between all the eldar and tau where they would like to exterminate each other completely would not be about attrition warfare. It would be about if the eldar would dare to use their horrible ancient weapons that could destroy planets or worse. Tau starships are no match for eldar warships, and tau don't even come close to the really nasty eldar stuff.
Blowing up a star system is a feat the Tau have accomplished. Unlike the Eldar, they also may soon be capable of mass-producing the means. I don't think the Eldar are still capable of creating weapons of that magnitude.
Psienesis wrote: All of the above. The Tau space vessels amount to piloting a leaky bathtub against vessels that can turn on a dime, turn invisible, fly like dogfighters while being capital ships, and pack plasma weaponry first built to destroy Necron warships.
They're also made out of paper mache.
Eldar vessels don't travel through the warp. On the large scale, Eldar fleets are ALSO slower than the IoM... and because they rely on the webway, they are not guaranteed to arrive in advantageous positions- or to be able to retreat if a force blocks off their entryway. They're also incredibly susceptible to mines once you figure out where they came from.
While everyone likes to point out that Eldar are master manipulators and tricksters, people forget that the Eldar also do this to each other, and since an after-war situation is imaginable, they *will* do it to each other. Meanwhile, the Tau Empire is unified. Even Farsight is still a true believer in the Greater Good, even if he doesn't trust the Ethereals. The Tau have a unified command structure which will give them a big advantage over the Eldar.
Yeah, the Eldar are never going to unite to wipe out the Tau, but this scenario supposes that they do. In general, Eldar are very effective at working together, while the Tau won't be able to do so in the event of a war, due to the fact the Eldar could simply hit every single Tau world at once.
EmpNortonII wrote: The Eldar excel at hit and run battles where they can deploy overwhelming force and run away before reinforcements show up.
Eldar have little practice at large-scale attrition warfare
Eldar have fought against Orks for longer than Tau have existed, including major battles where they couldn't do hit and run tactics. And they've also fought Tyranids.
It's not their cup of tea, but that doesn't mean that they can't do it.
Blowing up a star system is a feat the Tau have accomplished. Unlike the Eldar, they also may soon be capable of mass-producing the means. I don't think the Eldar are still capable of creating weapons of that magnitude.
As of yet the Tau are unable to mass-produce such devices. Not that it would necessarily be particularly effective against the Craftworld Eldar who don't rely on planets anyway near as much as the Tau do. The Eldar being able to destroy stars is a very potent weapon for them in this situation; not so for the Tau.
With no defences against Psychic abilities or means of countering the scrying of seers the Tau are at a considerable disadvantage. In terms of technology they are at best at parity on the ground and the Eldar are superior in space. The Eldar definitely have the advantage in this matchup.
The Tau are hopeful and growing whereas the more ancient powers are all declining and collapsing. But at the moment, the Tau Empire is about the size of Ultramar and just one of the many thousands of minor Xenos realms in the galaxy
Ultramar consists of 11 worlds. The Tau have 19 named Septs (and probably more)- which all include multiple habitated worlds. It also doesn't include the planets of their allies.
With no defences against Psychic abilities or means of countering the scrying of seers the Tau are at a considerable disadvantage. In terms of technology they are at best at parity on the ground and the Eldar are superior in space. The Eldar definitely have the advantage in this matchup.
They might. The Nicaussar have been part of the Tau Empire for quite some time. Ethereal understanding of the warp and psykers is greater than they let on in front of the other Castes.
I remember Eldar having the tech, through the Talismans of Vaul / Blackstone Fortresses, to detonate stars. At the very least, they can slay C'tan, which is virtually impossible.
They might. The Nicaussar have been part of the Tau Empire for quite some time. Ethereal understanding of the warp and psykers is greater than they let on in front of the other Castes.
The Nicaussar and their abilities have never been elaborated on. It's possible they are very specialised Psykers. If I recall correctly they are also ineffective in combat which implies to me that their powers are irrelevant to fighting.
Melissia wrote:I remember Eldar having the tech, through the Talismans of Vaul / Blackstone Fortresses, to detonate stars. At the very least, they can slay C'tan, which is virtually impossible.
Also as some mentioned before in the thread "The Great Exodus" had six Eldar Craftworlds combine forces and extinguish all stars within 60 light years. They do indeed have the technology.
Why do people keep saying the Eldar can predict the future, no the unequivocally cannot, they can see the paths of the future that MAY come to pass, they then manipulate events to TRY to match the most favourable outcome, this is world's away from predicting the future with 100% accuracy, also they cannot see every eventuality, if they could they would never lose any war ever...
Ultramar consists of 11 worlds. The Tau have 19 named Septs (and probably more)- which all include multiple habitated worlds. It also doesn't include the planets of their allies.
Wut. 11 worlds now is it. So much for the 500 worlds.
Just about any other ununited race in 40k kicks the Taus fish lips in. Only reason theyve lasted this long is because everyones got better things to do and GWs crappy fluff.
EmpNortonII wrote: Ultramar consists of 11 worlds. The Tau have 19 named Septs (and probably more)- which all include multiple habitated worlds. It also doesn't include the planets of their allies.
In terms of comparative scale to the rest of the races, this is next to nothing.
There is no faction in the game who would have any difficulty in beating the tau.
Just about any other ununited race in 40k kicks the Taus fish lips in.
Even sisters of battle or stormtroopers alone would probably be able to get the job done if all their forces were united.
The Tau are hopeful and growing whereas the more ancient powers are all declining and collapsing. But at the moment, the Tau Empire is about the size of Ultramar and just one of the many thousands of minor Xenos realms in the galaxy
Ultramar consists of 11 worlds. The Tau have 19 named Septs (and probably more)- which all include multiple habitated worlds. It also doesn't include the planets of their allies.
Wow. Hear that? Nineteen systems.
Even if you discount the craftworlds that refuse to have anything to do with the others or have been 'lost', they outnumber the Tau (there are twenty three known craftworlds, if you ignore the lost-but-not-destroyed ones, Dorhai and the Black Library)
They certainly out-tech them. Need I remind you that Eldar have man-portable point-to-point teleporters? Perfect, impossible-to-intercept FTL communications? Lossless squad communications with no possibility of the signal being scrambled or blocked outside the deployment of a few specific abilities that the Tau do not have access to?
Even if you discount prognostication and the Eldars' sheer speed, they have far more advantages than the Tau can even hope to bring to the table.
Some day, if they're left alone to breed and breed and develop, the Tau may threaten the other major players in the galaxy.
The only reason the Eldar aren't ruling the galaxy outright is because they don't have enough bodies to use all their technology.
The Eldar have leaders that can read the future with a fair degree of accuracy, and if all the craftwords are united and working together this ability would likely become even more accurate. The webway, even in it's state of disrepair would allow them to out maneuver the tau and strike at their weakest. Finally the tau navy is a joke compared to the eldar's. Tau ships are slow and they can't respond quickly to troubled areas.
The war would likely be over before the TAU even knew what was happening.
The Tau are hopeful and growing whereas the more ancient powers are all declining and collapsing. But at the moment, the Tau Empire is about the size of Ultramar and just one of the many thousands of minor Xenos realms in the galaxy
Ultramar consists of 11 worlds. The Tau have 19 named Septs (and probably more)- which all include multiple habitated worlds. It also doesn't include the planets of their allies.
Wow. Hear that? Nineteen systems.
Even if you discount the craftworlds that refuse to have anything to do with the others or have been 'lost', they outnumber the Tau (there are twenty three known craftworlds, if you ignore the lost-but-not-destroyed ones, Dorhai and the Black Library)
They certainly out-tech them. Need I remind you that Eldar have man-portable point-to-point teleporters? Perfect, impossible-to-intercept FTL communications? Lossless squad communications with no possibility of the signal being scrambled or blocked outside the deployment of a few specific abilities that the Tau do not have access to?
Even if you discount prognostication and the Eldars' sheer speed, they have far more advantages than the Tau can even hope to bring to the table.
Some day, if they're left alone to breed and breed and develop, the Tau may threaten the other major players in the galaxy.
The only reason the Eldar aren't ruling the galaxy outright is because they don't have enough bodies to use all their technology.
How big is a craft world? I always imagine them as like space cites, but unless they are the size of planets then the eldar are at a severer population disadvantage. (They would also be kind of coll if they were planet size.) That is what is making me question the eldars ability to destroy the tau. Sure they can win a war with them, but I don't think they have the numbers completely wipe them out.
How big is a craft world? I always imagine them as like space cites, but unless they are the size of planets then the eldar are at a severer population disadvantage. (They would also be kind of coll if they were planet size.) That is what is making me question the eldars ability to destroy the tau. Sure they can win a war with them, but I don't think they have the numbers completely wipe them out.
Craftworlds tend to be very varied in size but all are colossal in scale. Small Craftworlds are often described to be close to large moons whilst others are closer to the size of planets. A lot is made about the size of the Eldar population and how they are outnumbered by the other factions but to put it into prospective each Craftworld has a population roughly equivalent to the number of humans alive on Earth today. Although the actual number of warriors each Craftworld has at their disposal is very dependent on how many are walking the warrior path at that time. They are still outnumbered hilariously by the likes of the Imperium and the Orks but they still possess significant numbers against smaller forces like the Tau.
How big is a craft world? I always imagine them as like space cites, but unless they are the size of planets then the eldar are at a severer population disadvantage. (They would also be kind of coll if they were planet size.) That is what is making me question the eldars ability to destroy the tau. Sure they can win a war with them, but I don't think they have the numbers completely wipe them out.
Craftworlds tend to be very varied in size but all are colossal in scale. Small Craftworlds are often described to be close to large moons whilst others are closer to the size of planets. A lot is made about the size of the Eldar population and how they are outnumbered by the other factions but to put it into prospective each Craftworld has a population roughly equivalent to the number of humans alive on Earth today. Although the actual number of warriors each Craftworld has at their disposal is very dependent on how many are walking the warrior path at that time. They are still outnumbered hilariously by the likes of the Imperium and the Orks but they still possess significant numbers against smaller forces like the Tau.
The number of warriors they have at their disposal is almost equal to their population. Pretty much every inhabitant of a craftworld has been trained at least to the level of Guardians.
Also they don't need troops to purge Tau. Eldar wepaon systems are more than capable of simply glassing a planet/ripping it apart with warp weaponry. Hell the gravitational field on a Craft World would be so large they could probably sling asteroids into a planet if they wanted.
Wyzilla wrote: Also they don't need troops to purge Tau. Eldar wepaon systems are more than capable of simply glassing a planet/ripping it apart with warp weaponry. Hell the gravitational field on a Craft World would be so large they could probably sling asteroids into a planet if they wanted.
Although I wouldn’t go as far as to suggest the Eldar would use the gravitational field of a Craftworld to sling asteroids at planets (they could but that seems a bit too Orky ) the main weapons on a Craftworld are definitely something to be feared.
nomotog wrote: You know, this thread is making me notice how alike the eldar and tau are.
Yes, they've both taken some martial arts courses. Sadly the Tau is still a chubby little boy in kiddie Judo while the Eldar is an almost-immortal doing UFC matches in the top three. The little boy has potential, but he needs to grow up first.
Eldar squish the Tau so hard. Craftworlds are basically ships the size of moons, sporting weaponry to match. They achieve total space superiority, isolate Tau ground forces, and let them die on the vine. Tau planets get totally isolated, cut off from all communication and travel between their worlds. The Eldar assassinate all the Ethereals and the Tau then turn on themselves due to infighting.
Ignoring the fact that I doubt this confrontation would ever happen, I too would give it to the Eldar. The main disadvantage eldar have is their lack of numbers, which funnily enough might cease to apply if they were all united against the Tau, one of the smallest players in the galaxy. If the eldar absolutely had to win, they wouldn't be above using their silly stupid psychic super weapons, which the Tau would likely have a tough time countering. In terms of space & ground combat, it really depends on how many webway gates the eldar have in tau space and in what positions they are. If they have many, the eldar would likely run rings around the tau while masking the gates with psychic powers, then take them apart with their more skilled and more numerous warriors. If they only have a few, then things would become more difficult for them on the ground, though the vastness of space would make it less of a problem in the void.
Give the Tau time though. Their whole thing is potential and adaptability. If their empire were to vastly grow in size, then they could easily grow resilient enough to let their adaptability and reproduction come in to play, not to mention their technology! In comparison, the eldar only decline, with their one hope seemingly involving their entire race dying!
Against the Eldar, not having FTL communications would be a terrible weakness - even if the other elements are equal - which they are not.
There are also more Craftworlds than Tau worlds just going by those named in various sources. The perceived difference in numbers is therefore reversed - there are substantially more Eldar warriors and war machines than Tau.
If its total war - remember the Eldar will not hesitate to destroy civilian targets - like entire planetary populations and will take advantage of the Tau desire to protect them.
The only place that the Tau can maybe match them is with warfare on the surface of worlds... and that's situational depending on the targets selected.
Lastly - the Eldar Craftworlds would not be able to be attacked by the Tau unless any are traversing in or near their space.
The only unknown element is the other races that form part of the Tau Empire........
I voted Tau - in the long term at least. In a straight up, line them up against each other battle Eldar would probably come out on top, but the Eldar are a dying race, barely surviving. Tau are the opposite. Young, vibrant and expanding. The Tau are probably the most technologically adaptable race in the Galaxy too (biological adaptability goes to the 'nids of course!).
Aben Zin wrote: I voted Tau - in the long term at least. In a straight up, line them up against each other battle Eldar would probably come out on top, but the Eldar are a dying race, barely surviving. Tau are the opposite. Young, vibrant and expanding. The Tau are probably the most technologically adaptable race in the Galaxy too (biological adaptability goes to the 'nids of course!).
So yeah, long term? Tau probably win out.
How long term are you thinking here? The question is who would win in a fight, not who would win in a fight in 1000 years time.
It is unlikely the tau would adapt fast enough to deal with the eldar once a conflict began.
It's worth remembering that the Eldar Craftworlds are (correct me if I'm wrong here) pretty spread out through the Galaxy, whereas the Tau are concentrated in their empire. If the two races just decided to go to war on day it would take time for the Eldar to bring to bear enough forces to totally defeat the Tau in one go.
In fact by striking at the closer Eldar the Tau could take the Eldar apart piecemeal before the Eldar had the chance to bring their superior numbers (it feels weird typing those words about the Eldar!) into play.
This would also allow the Tau to adapt their tactics against the Eldar through the initial conflicts to better deal with the Eldar reinforcements.
Aben Zin wrote: Winning the fight in 1000 year is still winning!
It's worth remembering that the Eldar Craftworlds are (correct me if I'm wrong here) pretty spread out through the Galaxy, whereas the Tau are concentrated in their empire. If the two races just decided to go to war on day it would take time for the Eldar to bring to bear enough forces to totally defeat the Tau in one go.
In fact by striking at the closer Eldar the Tau could take the Eldar apart piecemeal before the Eldar had the chance to bring their superior numbers (it feels weird typing those words about the Eldar!) into play.
This would also allow the Tau to adapt their tactics against the Eldar through the initial conflicts to better deal with the Eldar reinforcements.
The Tau don't know where the Eldar are and they don't simply have a fleet that could both assault a Craftworld (and its own fleet) and also guard their homeworlds.
Problem is - every important area of the war the Eldar win:
Technology: Eldar Tech is much better than Tau tech.
Communications: Eldar have FTL/instantenous, Tau rely on spaceships to communicate - hugely vulnerable and slow.
Void Warfare: The best Tau ships are about on par with Imperial Cruisers/ Battle Cruisers - they are simply no match for Eldar fleets which include truely deadily battleships even in their Corsair fleets.
Psychic abilities: Although the Tau have some strong psychic client races - they seldom use them, All eldar are psychic and they have some of the strongest in the whole galaxy.
Mercenaries: Kroot may well sell their services to the "stronger" force - the Eldar
Aben Zin wrote: Winning the fight in 1000 year is still winning!
It's worth remembering that the Eldar Craftworlds are (correct me if I'm wrong here) pretty spread out through the Galaxy, whereas the Tau are concentrated in their empire. If the two races just decided to go to war on day it would take time for the Eldar to bring to bear enough forces to totally defeat the Tau in one go.
In fact by striking at the closer Eldar the Tau could take the Eldar apart piecemeal before the Eldar had the chance to bring their superior numbers (it feels weird typing those words about the Eldar!) into play.
This would also allow the Tau to adapt their tactics against the Eldar through the initial conflicts to better deal with the Eldar reinforcements.
The Eldar travel through the Webway. The Craftworlds do not actually need to be anywhere near Tau space for their armies and fleets to attack the Tau. To the Tau, it would just be like they appear out of thin air. Also, the Tau would be incapable of locating and attacking a Craftworld because the Tau ability for space travel is highly limited.
Aben Zin wrote: Winning the fight in 1000 year is still winning!
It's worth remembering that the Eldar Craftworlds are (correct me if I'm wrong here) pretty spread out through the Galaxy, whereas the Tau are concentrated in their empire. If the two races just decided to go to war on day it would take time for the Eldar to bring to bear enough forces to totally defeat the Tau in one go.
In fact by striking at the closer Eldar the Tau could take the Eldar apart piecemeal before the Eldar had the chance to bring their superior numbers (it feels weird typing those words about the Eldar!) into play.
This would also allow the Tau to adapt their tactics against the Eldar through the initial conflicts to better deal with the Eldar reinforcements.
The Eldar travel through the Webway. The Craftworlds do not actually need to be anywhere near Tau space for their armies and fleets to attack the Tau. To the Tau, it would just be like they appear out of thin air. Also, the Tau would be incapable of locating and attacking a Craftworld because the Tau ability for space travel is highly limited.
And in the event they did find a craft world they'd be incredibly (wraith)boned.
Aben Zin wrote: In fact by striking at the closer Eldar the Tau could take the Eldar apart piecemeal before the Eldar had the chance to bring their superior numbers (it feels weird typing those words about the Eldar!) into play.
This would also allow the Tau to adapt their tactics against the Eldar through the initial conflicts to better deal with the Eldar reinforcements.
How would the Tau strike at "closer" Eldar? The Tau are entirely confined to their region of space. They've barely made it past the Damocles Gulf and even the Farsight Enclaves, which are extremely close by any of the other main factions' standards, are so far as to make reliable communication virtually impossible for the Tau. That's how he was able to go renegade - they can't even rein him in because they can't deal with the distance.
I mean seriously, look at this map and see how easily this distance would be traversed by the other factions:
The Imperial forces involved in the Damocles Crusade dealt with far greater distances, something the Tau simply aren't capable of.
Aben Zin wrote: Winning the fight in 1000 year is still winning!
This is being extremely optimistic. The Tau don't have the luxury of a thousand years when the Eldar have access to the Webway and to weapons that can wipe out stars.
In any Tau/Eldar conflict, the Eldar will be the ones to dictate the rules of engagement as they are the only ones who can feasibly attack the other faction within a reasonable time frame. Using the Webway, or even without it, the Eldar will be able to strike at will, whereas the Tau will always be on the defensive.
And yes, the Eldar are able to fight in pitched battles and capable of assaulting Hives, as well as massacring their inhabitants, as seen in Planetstrike (the Scouring of Gnosis, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Scouring_of_Gnosis).
nomotog wrote: You know, this thread is making me notice how alike the eldar and tau are.
Yes, they've both taken some martial arts courses. Sadly the Tau is still a chubby little boy in kiddie Judo while the Eldar is an almost-immortal doing UFC matches in the top three. The little boy has potential, but he needs to grow up first.
They're entirely different genres though.
Tau are from a Realistic Robot mecha anime like Patlabor or VOTOMS. They're pretty cool, but when it gets down to it, their machines are limited by what passes for physics in 40k and sensible "this could be real" technology.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The Eldar have leaders that can read the future with a fair degree of accuracy, and if all the craftwords are united and working together this ability would likely become even more accurate.
The Eldar have only a moderate amount of experience working with each other- fluff has plenty of examples of conflict between craft worlds over different sets of predictions. Arrogant as they are, I have a hard time seeing them settling on one leader.
I think infighting between them is a potential advantage for the Tau that no pro-Eldar person has considered.
Speaking of which, we do have a few examples of Eldar/Tau conflict. Given what happened to Lilarsus, if Ilyanden had the means to destroy planets outright, it would have. Yes, Ilyanden isn't exactly at the height of its power (and never again will be), they failed to defeat the Tau in a weeks-long battle at a colony world- let along a Sept world. (This is mentioned in the Ilyanden supplement).
I think infighting between them is a potential advantage no pro-Eldar person has considered
Probably because the base assumption here is that its all of the united Eldar vs the united Tau.
Anyway, if both sides are committed to total annihilation of the other, the Tau are in deep trouble.
I see the scenario playing out as follows,
1) Sept world X is subjected to several months of harassing raids by Eldar pirates and mobile unit. This draws out Tau forces to mount a counter attack. These raids also disable all Tau communication arrays, cutting the planet off from the rest of the empire.
2) Prior to this counter attack, the resident Ethereal gives a rallying speech to the Fire Caste, which is naturally broadcast planet wide.
3) At this speech, the Ethereal gets assassinated in front of everyone by Pathfinders/Striking Scorpions/Howling Banshees who appear and disappear before the entire Tau populace. This severely demoralizes the Tau forces.
4) At this same moment, an Eldar fleet appears in orbit, including several Craftworlds. The Tau space forces are trivially dispatched by ships larger than most moons and the accompanying fleet. Tau ground forces and civilians are exterminated from orbit, any who flee are cut down by the more mobile elements of the Eldar forces. The Tau are never allowed to fight in a pitched battle, its death by a thousand cuts from a mostly unseen foe(other than the massive planetoid sized ships in orbit)
5) Rinse and repeat for every individual Tau world. And given how many Craftworlds we know exist, they could probably do the above simultaneously to 7-8 Septs.
I think infighting between them is a potential advantage no pro-Eldar person has considered.
Considering that this is Eldar vs Tau + Enclaves, I can't imagine the Eldar will be the only ones with internal issues...
Farsight still believes in the Greater Good. At most, that's still just Farsight vs Aun'Va.
The Eldar are going to have at least one arrogant presumed-leader for each Craftworld, and all of them are cocky donkey-caves who think they know better than anyone else... even other Eldar.
Farsight still believes in the Greater Good. At most, that's still just Farsight vs Aun'Va.
The Eldar are going to have at least one arrogant presumed-leader for each Craftworld, and all of them are cocky donkey-caves who think they know better than anyone else... even other Eldar.
The OP stated:
raiden wrote: Assume craftworlds are united, but still as they are, each led by their own council,
For tau, assume they are as they are, save the enclaves are working with/under the main faction again.
It's pretty straight-forward, no?
I think we can assume both factions are united in the sense that they want to wipe the other faction out. And we already have examples of the Eldar working together (Great Exodus, Scouring of Gnosis, etc). They might have big egos but not to the point of not being able to work together.
And you still haven't addressed the Tau's limited ability for interstellar travel. Again, the Eldar will have the initiative here as the Tau have trouble maintaining communications and have no means of power projection beyond their own turf.
It also means the Eldar can easily setup ambushes for any Tau ships. They will have huge advance notice of where they will be. Heck the same Eldar fleet could detect 2 Tau forces light years away from each other, kill the one that arrives first, then go and kill the second one.
Please note, when I say unified, I mean their entire populace/resources, this doesn't mean they follow one 'leader' my apologies, so in fighting could play a part, though it may be less likely in this scenario
raiden wrote: Please note, when I say unified, I mean their entire populace/resources, this doesn't mean they follow one 'leader' my apologies, so in fighting could play a part, though it may be less likely in this scenario
Oh, well as long as they're working towards the overall same goal and are at least coordinating a bit, then it wouldn't change the situation that much as the odds are already heavily stacked in the Eldar's favor.
It might also be worth mentioning that the Tau/Farsight Enclave conflict is more serious than any Craftworld Eldar infighting (at least as far as I know, any examples anyone?). The Tau Empire basically considers him a heretic as he's been able to break free from the Ethereal's domination. Basically, the truth about the Ethereal's control could lead to the whole empire falling apart. That's way more serious than any ego issues an Autarch might have.
EmpNortonII wrote: Speaking of which, we do have a few examples of Eldar/Tau conflict. Given what happened to Lilarsus, if Ilyanden had the means to destroy planets outright, it would have. Yes, Ilyanden isn't exactly at the height of its power (and never again will be), they failed to defeat the Tau in a weeks-long battle at a colony world- let along a Sept world. (This is mentioned in the Ilyanden supplement).
"Due to Tau tenacity, the conflict continued for several weeks until both sides discovered that the initial raid on Kel'shan was done by the Dark Eldar Archon Andross Klax. Iyanden disengaged, snubbing the Tau's hand of friendship but nonetheless pledged themselves to making Klax pay for the unnecessary Eldar blood he spilled." http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Ka%27mais
The conflict didn't play out until the end. The Eldar disengaged to prevent unnecessary losses. This conflict is at most a minor skirmish, without the full commitment of the Iyanden forces (and it should be obvious why they would use their forces sparingly, after Hive Fleet Kraken). Also, I don't have the supplement available right now but I doubt the Craftworld itself got involved (as in appeared in Tau space and all that).
I should also mention Gnosis Prime had a population of 50 billion and was heavily defended and reinforced with famous IG regiments. The Eldar can strike hard when they choose to do so.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gnosis_Prime
The Damocles Crusade also ended in the Imperium's forces withdrawing. Doesn't = the Imperium being unable to wipe out the Tau. It just means they didn't commit enough resources at the time.
The hypothetical scenario we're discussing is different. It has both sides pitting all of their available resources against each other, meaning the factions are willing to shed blood.
EmpNortonII wrote: Given what happened to Lilarsus, if Ilyanden had the means to destroy planets outright, it would have.
We have a very specific example of six Craftworlds uniting to wipe out all suns within sixty light years. That is stated in the rulebook. It doesn't mean a single Craftworld (Iyanden) can wipe out planets at will or is even willing to do so, especially over a minor conflict. It's the same reason the Imperium doesn't just go exterminatus on every planet they come across.
However, for this specific hypothetical scenario, we have to assume they at least have the capability to do so. There's also an entire Craftworld (Iybraesil) dedicated to retrieving lost technologies and doomsday artifacts.
Finally, we all know this conflict comes down to the Eldar invading the Tau Empire as the Tau don't have the ability to strike out at the Eldar beyond their own little corner of the galaxy (at least in force). So yea, it might involve a lot of waiting for all the Craftworlds to gather (or maybe they'd just use the Webway) but it still gives the Eldar the initiative to strike as they please.
*Phew* sorry for massive post, wanted to get it all out there. Hope someone at least reads it
Ok after giving it some thought I have to give it to the Eldar, not because I don’t like the Tau because I do or because they are weak because they defiantly are not but because they just have too many disadvantages in this fight.
Probably the most important is that the Tau are located in a fairly small piece of space and their important strategic locations are for the most part very static and easy to locate. It would be like a galactic scale version of shooting fish in a barrel. In comparison thanks to the Webway the Eldar’s Craftworlds can be on the other side of the galaxy safe from any Tau attack even if the Tau could find them. Because of this the Tau would have no idea where the Eldar are coming from and will be stuck defending their worlds without having the ability to strike back in kind.
Speaking of the Webway someone mentioned earlier that the Eldar can no longer create Webway tunnels. This is not entirely true; they have indeed lost the ability to create permanent tunnels through the Warp but they can still create temporary tunnels when needed. During the Eye of Terror Campaign the Ulthwe strike forces would use small portable Webway portals to open small tunnels through the Warp just large enough so that a Wraithlord could walk through without trouble. These devises are not even uncommon as they have been used in the Eldar path series and even appeared in the Daemonifuge comics. So yes the larger things like Wraithknights, titans or super heavy tanks would have to rely on the Eldar ships (as if that’s a disadvantage) to get them to the battlefield if there isn’t a Webway portal nearby but things like aspect warriors or fire prisms would have no problem suddenly appearing out of thin air.
Another important factor is the Eldar war mask. It doesn’t matter if the Eldar in his or her normal life is the nicest and gentlest person you could meet once they put on their war masks and adopt their war persona they become a stone hearted killer. Things like mercy and restraint don’t exist; it doesn’t matter if its men, women or children they will dispatch them with the same cold indifference. The Tau on the other hand will attempt to protect their civilians leaving them venerable and once again on the defence robbing them of any tactical flexibility.
There are many other problems the Tau will have to overcome but some have already been addressed so there really is no need for me to repeat them.
Ok now this part is just for fun so don’t take it too seriously. I know the title is only the Craftworlds vs the Tau but despite what some Black Library writers would like you to believe the Eldar do not make a habit of standing in neat lines politely waiting to be shot. As we all know the Eldar will always try to avoid any unnecessary conflicts (well at least the Craftworlders will) and if this war was to take place the Farseers would have seen it and judged that it was unavoidable and would have made preparations to stack the odds in their favour.
If the two groups were to actually go to war it would go something like this:
Phase 1: What the hell was that?
Many weeks, months or years before the start of the conflict Eldar Rangers start to secretly operate within Tau space. A little industrial accident here a few unimportant missing people (who just so happen would have played major roles in the Tau war effort) here. Oh did that Tau commander just fall accidentally from his balcony oh dear.
Eldar corsair fleets begin to harass the Tau fleets drawing them away from where they need to be.
Phase 2: I have a dream:
Several Ork Warbosses near Tau space suddenly start to receive visions from Gork and Mork telling them to head to Tau space as there is going to be a really good war soon. The Tau forces that have been protecting the fringes of their empire wake up one morning to find a great big green tide heading straight for them. As they start to fight they are suddenly attacked from behind by a mysteries enemy that seems to vanish into thin air before they can counter attack. The attacks don’t do a huge amount of damage but do distract and weaken them enough for the Orks to batter their way through.
The Eldar fleets continue to follow the Orks just out of sight but only intervene if it looks like the Tau are gaining the advantage.
Phase 3: Who, What, Where:
Finding their Empire suddenly surrounded by a very loud and smelly enemy the Tau turn to their Ethereals for guidance only to find that they have been suddenly disposed of by an unknown assailant. Leaderless the Tau’s cohesion and command structure begins to break down as discipline and moral starts to deteriorate.
Strange aliens start to appear leaving nothing but a bloody slaughter in their wake. In a panic the citizens begin to turn on each other.
Phase 4: A job well done:
As the core of the Tau Empire starts to collapse the separate Orks Waaaghs begin to merge into a much bigger and stronger Waaagh that continues to brutally encircle the now desperate remains of the once proud Tau Empire.
As the final act begins the Eldar simple sit back in their comfy chairs grab a soda and some popcorn and enjoy the show.
Result: the Tau lose a war that they didn’t even know they where fighting.
I should also mention Gnosis Prime had a population of 50 billion and was heavily defended and reinforced with famous IG regiments. The Eldar can strike hard when they choose to do so.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gnosis_Prime
I think that Gnosis says less about how great the Eldar are and more about how incredibly gakky Imperial troops and PDF are.
Just because you don't really hear of it, or it is considered a more dark elder style of thing to do, I doubt very much that eldar scientists (if that's what you would call them?) haven't tampered with or continue to work on biological weapons. Pretty sure with how advanced the Eldar are that they could wipe out every tau planet with just a small canister filled with whatever vile substance they have decided will do the trick.
Ok after giving it some thought I have to give it to the Eldar, not because I don’t like the Tau because I do or because they are weak because they defiantly are not but because they just have too many disadvantages in this fight.
Probably the most important is that the Tau are located in a fairly small piece of space and their important strategic locations are for the most part very static and easy to locate. It would be like a galactic scale version of shooting fish in a barrel. In comparison thanks to the Webway the Eldar’s Craftworlds can be on the other side of the galaxy safe from any Tau attack even if the Tau could find them. Because of this the Tau would have no idea where the Eldar are coming from and will be stuck defending their worlds without having the ability to strike back in kind.
Speaking of the Webway someone mentioned earlier that the Eldar can no longer create Webway tunnels. This is not entirely true; they have indeed lost the ability to create permanent tunnels through the Warp but they can still create temporary tunnels when needed. During the Eye of Terror Campaign the Ulthwe strike forces would use small portable Webway portals to open small tunnels through the Warp just large enough so that a Wraithlord could walk through without trouble. These devises are not even uncommon as they have been used in the Eldar path series and even appeared in the Daemonifuge comics. So yes the larger things like Wraithknights, titans or super heavy tanks would have to rely on the Eldar ships (as if that’s a disadvantage) to get them to the battlefield if there isn’t a Webway portal nearby but things like aspect warriors or fire prisms would have no problem suddenly appearing out of thin air.
Another important factor is the Eldar war mask. It doesn’t matter if the Eldar in his or her normal life is the nicest and gentlest person you could meet once they put on their war masks and adopt their war persona they become a stone hearted killer. Things like mercy and restraint don’t exist; it doesn’t matter if its men, women or children they will dispatch them with the same cold indifference. The Tau on the other hand will attempt to protect their civilians leaving them venerable and once again on the defence robbing them of any tactical flexibility.
There are many other problems the Tau will have to overcome but some have already been addressed so there really is no need for me to repeat them.
Ok now this part is just for fun so don’t take it too seriously. I know the title is only the Craftworlds vs the Tau but despite what some Black Library writers would like you to believe the Eldar do not make a habit of standing in neat lines politely waiting to be shot. As we all know the Eldar will always try to avoid any unnecessary conflicts (well at least the Craftworlders will) and if this war was to take place the Farseers would have seen it and judged that it was unavoidable and would have made preparations to stack the odds in their favour.
These are good points! A big advantage you bring up is how coldly and efficiently the Eldar can operate, whereas the Tau are a lot more naive and need the Ethereals for guidance (their war efforts also seem to collapse the moment the Ethereals are eliminated, much like Orks and their Warbosses). They are not above genocide when they deem it necessary, as they have demonstrated again and again.
I should also mention Gnosis Prime had a population of 50 billion and was heavily defended and reinforced with famous IG regiments. The Eldar can strike hard when they choose to do so.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gnosis_Prime
I think that Gnosis says less about how great the Eldar are and more about how incredibly gakky Imperial troops and PDF are.
I bring up Gnosis Prime as an example of the Eldar's willingless and ability to strike at hardened targets with minimal losses (some people in the thread have asked if Eldar are even able to fight in large scale battles - yes, and they are able to assault and depopulate planets). You also brought up how they were struggling with a single sept. Gnosis Prime is an example of a somewhat similar situation wherein the Eldar are willing to make the necessary sacrifices to massacre the planetary population.
It could be similarly argued that the whole of the Tau Empire struggles with a few Imperial backwater colonies... so no, I don't think the PDF and Imperial troops are incredibly gakky, unless the Tau Empire is too, by extension.
What do you say about the Tau's inability to strike back at the Eldar, especially outside of the immediate vicinity of their own realm? You make the Webway sound like a disadvantage...
Spoiler:
For the record, I actually like the Tau. They were a lot of fun to play in Dark Crusade. The Ethereals suck though (their arrogance is on par with that of the Eldar!). Oh, and Farsight is awesome
One last thing, for the sake of my sanity, could you address how the Tau would deal with an event like the Great Exodus? We're talking about at least 20 Craftworlds here, not six.
There could be a more interesting situation then the supposed out of the blue all out war.
Suppose the Tau would like to do hold a cultural exchange program themselves to get even for the previous one.
The Eldar might not be that alarmed by this but the tables could turn if the tau manage to reverse engineer dark eldar technology including the web way portal tricks before the Eldar Tau war would start.
oldzoggy wrote: There could be a more interesting situation then the supposed out of the blue all out war.
Suppose the Tau would like to do hold a cultural exchange program themselves to get even for the previous one.
The Eldar might not be that alarmed by this but the tables could turn if the tau manage to reverse engineer dark eldar technology including the web way portal tricks before the Eldar Tau war would start.
Seriously? Somehow the Tau use a "cultural exchange program" to reverse engineer Dark Eldar tech and get better at navigating the Webway than the Eldar? Very likely, not to mention no Eldar faction would be interested in the slightest, as they already have superior tech and openly scoff at the "Greater Good" (there's already been encounters where the Tau have tried to recruit them to their cause. The Eldar laughed in their faces of course).
The Tau have nothing to offer the Eldar.
And yea, the Farseers would see through the "cultural exchange" ruse.
Oh, and we all know how the last "cultural exchange" between the DE and the Tau ended...
Well there is the Eldrad quote in the 3th edition codex. It seems that there will be a point when the tau technology would supersede eldar technology, and he still wants to protect them. So perhaps the Farseers would see that coming but they would simply not care enough since it could fit in their greater schemes.
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The Tau have nothing to offer the Eldar.
That did not get in the way the previous exchange program
oldzoggy wrote: Well there is the Eldrad quote in the 3th edition codex. It seems that there will be a point when the tau technology would supersede eldar technology, and he still wants to protect them. So perhaps the Farseers would see that coming but they would simply not care enough since it could fit in their greater schemes.
That's outside the scope of this thread. This is a scenario where they're pitting all their forces against each other, not where the Tau still fit into the Eldar's schemes and where the Eldar need to coddle them.
Plus how would the Tau gaining Eldar tech to use in a future war against the Eldar fit into Eldar schemes?
oldzoggy wrote: That did not get in the way the previous exchange program
Plus how would the Tau gaining Eldar tech to use in a future war against the Eldar fit into Eldar schemes?
I don't know i'm no farseer looking 1000's of years in the future while trying to manipulate it.
But this might just be the sort of twisted plan some troubled farseers might come up with if they really needed to make their plan work. The rapid development of the tau and suggestive quotes in the codexes of tau technology always hinted at eldar shenanigans to me.
Well there is the War of Dark Revelations, where the Tau attempted to attack the DARK Eldar after they killed some Ethereals and warriors (from Wiki):
"Mobilizing their fleet reserves from the nearby planet Rubikon, the Tau made course for Rakarth's fleet in orbit. However the Haemonculi fleet turned out to be nothing but mirages and empty space. Confused, the Tau then received a desperate message from Commander O'Shaev detailing that Rubikon was now under attack by Rakarth's forces. Now undefended, Rubikon was the subject of a massive bloodbath that saw even Supreme Overlord of Commorragh Asdrubael Vect himself and his Kabal of the Black Heart involved in the fray. The Prophets of Flesh deployed thousands of Wracks, Grotesques, and Pain Engines which overwhelmed the spirited Tau defense. When Tau reinforcements finally arrived, they found Rubikon to be a barren world, its populace stolen away to the horrors of Commorragh."
So essentially the Eldar would just do the same kind of thing.
Assume craftworlds are united, but still as they are, each led by their own council,
For tau, assume they are as they are, save the enclaves are working with/under the main faction again.
I have a point to raise.
Popular opinion has it that the Tau are secretly puppets of another power in 40k.
If, in fact, the Ethereals are secretly working under the umbrella of the Harlequins or Tzeentch, shouldn't we assume, then, that said head of faction counts as part of the Tau Empire?
Popular opinion has it that the Tau are secretly puppets of another power in 40k.
If, in fact, the Ethereals are secretly working under the umbrella of the Harlequins or Tzeentch, shouldn't we assume, then, that said head of faction counts as part of the Tau Empire?
I don't follow.
Head of what faction? How would the leaders of the Tau Empire secretly working for some other faction mean the other faction is part of the Tau Empire? That just means the Tau Empire is being manipulated for some other purpose.
Harlequins are Eldar, though not included in this scenario. If they were involved they would support the Eldar.
Personally, I don't believe the Tau are puppets, though I wouldn't rule out others having had a guiding hand in their development so far.
What about the previous points? (Great Exodus and all Tau eggs in one basket, inability to strike beyond their own turf, inability to maintain communications, inability to locate Eldar forces or to locate Webway portals, sub-par FTL travel, etc)
Popular opinion has it that the Tau are secretly puppets of another power in 40k.
If, in fact, the Ethereals are secretly working under the umbrella of the Harlequins or Tzeentch, shouldn't we assume, then, that said head of faction counts as part of the Tau Empire?
I don't follow.
Head of what faction? How would the leaders of the Tau Empire secretly working for some other faction mean the other faction is part of the Tau Empire? That just means the Tau Empire is being manipulated for some other purpose.
Harlequins are Eldar, though not included in this scenario. If they were involved they would support the Eldar.
Personally, I don't believe the Tau are puppets, though I wouldn't rule out others having had a guiding hand in their development so far.
What about the previous points? (Great Exodus and all Tau eggs in one basket, inability to strike beyond their own turf, inability to maintain communications, inability to locate Eldar forces or to locate Webway portals, sub-par FTL travel, etc)
What's to say? If a Chapter of Space Marines can crack a craftworld then the planetary defenses of a sept world should be able to do the same no problem. if all the massed forced of the Eldar hit world after world, they get to do that until the Earth Caste set off one of their experimental sun-exploders and destroy the entire Eldar fleet in one go.
The Great Exodus was a unique event, probably expending some weapon the Eldar cannot mass-produce. After all, they sure as hell don't seem capable of wiping out hive fleets using the same method. We don't know if the Nicaussar or other psker-capable aliens have knowledge of the webway or are capable of similar feats to the Eldar.
What's to say? If a Chapter of Space Marines can crack a craftworld then the planetary defenses of a sept world should be able to do the same no problem. if all the massed forced of the Eldar hit world after world, they get to do that until the Earth Caste set off one of their experimental sun-exploders and destroy the entire Eldar fleet in one go.
Previous posts have already addressed this but to add to that:
Craftworld Idharae was
a) a relatively minor Craftworld
b) weakend fighting Hivefleet Naga
c) destroyed by the Invaders with the help of the Legion of the Damned. These guys are hardly normal marines.
Spoiler:
d) reduced to a ruined hulk by horrible writing
Where are the experimental sun-exploders you mention in the fluff?
EmpNortonII wrote: The Great Exodus was a unique event, probably expending some weapon the Eldar cannot mass-produce. After all, they sure as hell don't seem capable of wiping out hive fleets using the same method. We don't know if the Nicaussar or other psker-capable aliens have knowledge of the webway or are capable of similar feats to the Eldar.
Why do they need to mass produce it? The one event had a radius of sixty light years. How big do you suppose the Tau Empire is exactly and do you really think this wouldn't severely cripple it?
What if it wasn't a weapon at all but instead all the psykers on the six Craftworlds working together? Or what's to say they can't use the weapon again or have other artifacts up their sleeve? Craftworld Iybraesil does nothing but retrieve doomsday weapons after all. And again, 20 something Craftworlds are probably capable of something even more deadly.
And a minor client race of Tau having the same knowledge of the Webway as the Eldar? There's nothing in fluff to suggest anything of the sort but there is fluff stating the Eldar mastered the Webway.
Spoiler:
"From the many secrets of the Warp taught to them by the Old Ones, the Eldar created a pan-galactic network of navigable tunnels.[3] It was the ancient Eldar who mastered the original Webway network.[2c] At the height of their empire, they used it to travel thousands of light years safely yet quickly and linked all their worlds. Their starships were thus able to move from one end of the galaxy to the other without entering realspace."
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Webway
Finally, wiping out suns would starve the Tyrannids but not destroy them. They're not dependent on a set of planets - they'd just move on to the next. But the Eldar have culled Imperial planets before to starve the Tyrannids. However, wiping out all the suns in such a radius in Tau space? Game over.
But ok, I can see how OP something that is but the odds are heavily stacked in the Eldar's favor even without the doomsday artifacts. Not least because the Tau can't strike beyond their region of space properly.
Sounds vaguely familiar. Have they actually used it on an enemy? By your logic they should have wiped out Hive Fleet Gorgon and the Ork Waaagh!s with sun exploders.
EmpNortonII wrote: If they don't have the capability to repeat the feat, it doesn't matter what they did in the past.
The Eldar are in decline. Just because they did something once does not mean they can do it again.
What's to say they can't? Mass produce =/= being able to use again. Again, Craftworld Iybraesil specializes in retrieving ancient doomsday devices. And twenty something Craftworlds probably deadlier than six.
The event happened in 750.M41. How much do you suppose they've declined in that time? Edit: Actually, fair enough, Hive Fleet Kraken happens after this event, though the fluff has existed for longer. Still, that just means Iyanden is significantly weaker. There's the other Craftworlds to make up for that.
Sounds vaguely familiar. Have they actually used it on an enemy? By your logic they should have wiped out Hive Fleet Gorgon and the Ork Waaagh!s with sun exploders.
EmpNortonII wrote: If they don't have the capability to repeat the feat, it doesn't matter what they did in the past.
The Eldar are in decline. Just because they did something once does not mean they can do it again.
What's to say they can't? Mass produce =/= being able to use again. Again, Craftworld Iybraesil specializes in retrieving ancient doomsday devices. And twenty something Craftworlds probably deadlier than six.
It's new. Tau are the one race in the galaxy that regularly create new things... or create new things at all, really. The problem is that it's not yet portable enough to be practical, but since the Eldar are coming to the Tau, it doesn't need to be. Someone just needs to set it off at the last minute like that one Marine in the Starcraft video from the first game... and no more Eldar. *poof*
... and seriously, the Eldar would be using that gak right and left again tyranids... if they could. They don't, therefore...
Besides, the Blood Ravens and Trazyn have probably stolen every doomsday weapon Iybraesil had by now.
... and seriously, the Eldar would be using that gak right and left again tyranids... if they could. They don't, therefore...
Let's try: "The Tau would be using that gak right and left again tyranids... if they could. They don't, therefore..."
Look, I addressed this in my previous post. The Tau are also fighting in their own space. Why aren't they using their sun destroyers? Besides, the Eldar aren't sitting ducks. But the Tau are.
Also, do you see Iybraesil and Ulthwe fighting Tyrannids all the time? They're hanging around the Eye of Terror.
Here is my previous post, addressed to one of yours:
EngulfedObject wrote: We have a very specific example of six Craftworlds uniting to wipe out all suns within sixty light years. That is stated in the rulebook. It doesn't mean a single Craftworld (Iyanden) can wipe out planets at will or is even willing to do so, especially over a minor conflict. It's the same reason the Imperium doesn't just go exterminatus on every planet they come across.
... and seriously, the Eldar would be using that gak right and left again tyranids... if they could. They don't, therefore...
Let's try: "The Tau would be using that gak right and left again tyranids... if they could. They don't, therefore..."
Look, I addressed this in my previous post. The Tau are also fighting in their own space. Why aren't they using their sun destroyers? Besides, the Eldar aren't sitting ducks. But the Tau are.
Also, do you see Iybraesil and Ulthwe fighting Tyrannids all the time? They're hanging around the Eye of Terror.
Here is my previous post, addressed to one of yours:
EngulfedObject wrote: We have a very specific example of six Craftworlds uniting to wipe out all suns within sixty light years. That is stated in the rulebook. It doesn't mean a single Craftworld (Iyanden) can wipe out planets at will or is even willing to do so, especially over a minor conflict. It's the same reason the Imperium doesn't just go exterminatus on every planet they come across.
I already said- currently, they're too difficult to move around to use as offensive weapons... at the moment. It's in the book. Why do I have to repeat myself to you? Clearly, such a weapon could only be used as a last resort when the world has already fallen... and so far as I know, no world with one has been attacked by Tyranids and been nearly over-run.
Wait a second- so, the last Black Crusade- the one where Eldrad bit the dust- the Eldar had a giant ship full of working doomsday weapons and forgot to use them? Why don't the Eldar, I don't know, start using them wholesale against Chaos?
I already said- currently, they're too difficult to move around to use as offensive weapons... at the moment. It's in the book. Why do I have to repeat myself to you? Clearly, such a weapon could only be used as a last resort when the world has already fallen... and so far as I know, no world with one has been attacked by Tyranids and been nearly over-run.
Wait a second- so, the last Black Crusade- the one where Eldrad bit the dust- the Eldar had a giant ship full of working doomsday weapons and forgot to use them? Why don't the Eldar, I don't know, start using them wholesale against Chaos?
Riddle me this, how many Craftworlds were involved in the last Black Crusade? And don't you think snuffing out the suns around Cadia would be more detrimental to the Eldar and the Imperium?
So the Tau last resort is to blow up suns in their own space. Okay. And the Eldar, with all their Farseers gathered, would not see anything of the sort coming and would not hop back in the Webway. Also, they would park all their Craftworlds next to these suns for the Tau to blow up.
Brilliant plan.
(Again, this would take place within Tau Space. Let's think about that for a moment).
Formosa wrote: Ulthwe can't leave the space around the eye anyway, it's slowly being drawn into the eye, unless thats been retconned?
And I agree with the above point, if eldar have wide access to these super weapons, why don't they use them?
That's actually true but they could still support the war effort by using the Webway, thereby striking the Tau on the other side of the galaxy. Or just move some of their forces onto other Craftworlds.
I think I addressed the super weapon thing sufficiently at this point. I'm just saying they could potentially do such a thing, especially if they gather all of their forces. The aforementioned example was six Craftworlds working together. This is every Craftworld working together.
The rest of the thread also discussed how the Eldar have the advantage even without these doomsday weapons.
So the Tau last resort is to blow up suns in their own space. Okay. And the Eldar, with all their Farseers gathered, would not see anything of the sort coming and would not hop back in the Webway. Also, they would park all their Craftworlds next to these suns for the Tau to blow up.
Brilliant plan.
Anything that keeps the Eldar from committing enough vessels to win a fight ends in a Tau victory.
The Tau can make new warships. I'm not sure the Eldar still can.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EngulfedObject wrote: The aforementioned example was six Craftworlds working together. This is every Craftworld working together.
Unless you can site a source that indicates it is an event they can repeat, I think we can safely assume that they can't, given that they haven't since. Six craftworlds, by your description, could effortlessly jump around the galaxy nuking tyranids, Necrons, and Chaos incursions before they gain traction.
... and yet, they don't...
Probably because they can't repeat the feat. One-time use of a now-gone Old One weapon. Easy explanation of what happened.
Anything that keeps the Eldar from committing enough vessels to win a fight ends in a Tau victory.
The Tau can make new warships. I'm not sure the Eldar still can.
You said these weapons are difficult to move around and impractical to use on the offensive. The Eldar aren't going to wait for the Tau superweapon to get in position. The Eldar doomsday weapon on the other hand involved the Eldar showing up out of nowhere and disappearing again.
Who says all Eldar Craftworlds need to be in one place or else the Tau win? Are Tau worlds so incredibly difficult to assault? So Eldar can take on Tomb Worlds and Imperial worlds but the Tau are in another league? Again, Gnosis Prime - no actual Craftworld needed for the assault, just its forces.
And a declining population now means the Eldar can't build new ships? If you read about the Craftworlds, you'll notice its mentioned they've grown up to ten times their original size since the Fall. So yes, Craftworlds can be expanded upon and new ships can probably be built. Dark Eldar build ships too.
Unless you can site a source that indicates it is an event they can repeat, I think we can safely assume that they can't, given that they haven't since. Six craftworlds, by your description, could effortlessly jump around the galaxy nuking tyranids, Necrons, and Chaos incursions before they gain traction.
... and yet, they don't...
Probably because they can't repeat the feat. One-time use of a now-gone Old One weapon. Easy explanation of what happened.
There is no such source as the fluff will never explicitly spell something out like that. I'm going from the assumption that
a) there is a Craftworld (Iybraesil) dedicated to finding doomsday devices
b) such devices do exist
c) the Eldar have used it in the fluff
d) it might have not been a weapon but rather the mass gathering of the Craftworlds and psykers/infinity circuits of the Craftworlds
e) there's no reason to assume they can never do something like that again, and finally
f) there's now twenty+ Craftworlds working together, so more than the six involved in that event.
I'm pretty sure the Tau experimental sun exploding thing only mentions they've tried it out. That's about it.
And I have repeatedly explained why they haven't, or can't, or won't hop around popping those devices. HOWEVER, in this HYPOTHETICAL example, where NO OTHER FACTIONS are involved, then YES, we should at least consider this factor.
Formosa wrote: Ulthwe can't leave the space around the eye anyway, it's slowly being drawn into the eye, unless thats been retconned?
I didn't know that. HA! The Tau haven't even started up their Crisis suits, and one of the most powerful craftworlds is already out of the fight!
Not true, Ulthwe now orbits the Eye of Terror. Besides, the craftworld itself does not need to move in order to deploy the full might of its military force through the webway. They have an abundance of Seers and Warlocks in Ulthwe, something the Tau simply have no counter to.
Formosa wrote: Ulthwe can't leave the space around the eye anyway, it's slowly being drawn into the eye, unless thats been retconned?
I didn't know that. HA! The Tau haven't even started up their Crisis suits, and one of the most powerful craftworlds is already out of the fight!
Not true, Ulthwe now orbits the Eye of Terror. Besides, the craftworld itself does not need to move in order to deploy the full might of its military force through the webway. They have an abundance of Seers and Warlocks in Ulthwe, something the Tau simply have no counter to.
And the parameters of this discussion assume its every craftworld attacking the Tau. This obviously assumes this conflict is happening in a vacuum and other events which are going on don't factor in. Ulthwe can participate just fine.
I'm pretty sure the Tau experimental sun exploding thing only mentions they've tried it out. That's about it.
Not even that. The Tau didn't want to detonate those suns at all, they wanted to gather energy from them. But they accidentally made them turn supernova instead, and they have no idea how (that's what they are trying to figure out now).
Nowadays, Tau experimental projects have a tendency to backfire (like the fusion reactor that blew up a moon), work haphazardly (the paradox bombs), stuck in experimental phase forever (the XV22 stealth suit), or just not do what the Tau want them to do (Stormsurge).
Popular opinion has it that the Tau are secretly puppets of another power in 40k.
If, in fact, the Ethereals are secretly working under the umbrella of the Harlequins or Tzeentch, shouldn't we assume, then, that said head of faction counts as part of the Tau Empire?
Wow, stop press! NortonII just basically admitted that the Tau need the help of the Harlequins or Tzeentch to win!
Popular opinion has it that the Tau are secretly puppets of another power in 40k.
If, in fact, the Ethereals are secretly working under the umbrella of the Harlequins or Tzeentch, shouldn't we assume, then, that said head of faction counts as part of the Tau Empire?
Wow, stop press! NortonII just basically admitted that the Tau need the help of the Harlequins or Tzeentch to win!
It sure wouldn't hurt to have the 'quins sabotage the Eldar in the webway or have Tzeentch give the Nicaussar a map of them or an exact timeline of the Eldar invasion.
EmpNortonII wrote: It sure wouldn't hurt to have the 'quins sabotage the Eldar in the webway or have Tzeentch give the Nicaussar a map of them or an exact timeline of the Eldar invasion.
Why in the name of Cegorach would the Harlequins turn on the Eldar to save the Tau? Are you aware the Harlequins are Eldar too? Sabotage the Eldar in the Webway? Really? You don't think that's extremely far-fetched?
The Harlequins also protect the Black Library, which is... (*gasp*) a Craftworld. And Cegorach is an Eldar deity. There's no valid fluff reason why the Harlequins would support the Tau over the rest of the Craftworlds.
And Tzeentch giving the Nicaussar a map of the Eldar's plans? That's just absurd. The Tau are warp-impaired and probably beneath Tzeentch's notice.
AtoMaki wrote: Not even that. The Tau didn't want to detonate those suns at all, they wanted to gather energy from them. But they accidentally made them turn supernova instead, and they have no idea how (that's what they are trying to figure out now).
Nowadays, Tau experimental projects have a tendency to backfire (like the fusion reactor that blew up a moon), work haphazardly (the paradox bombs), stuck in experimental phase forever (the XV22 stealth suit), or just not do what the Tau want them to do (Stormsurge).
Yea, I think I remember reading about this in the Tau codex.
The Tau are certainly working on new tech but the Eldar are already at a level where they don't have to anymore.
It's still extremely far-fetched. And I seriously doubt there is a single example in fluff of the Harlequins openly fighting Craftworld Eldar to protect another species.
So the Tau last resort is to blow up suns in their own space. Okay. And the Eldar, with all their Farseers gathered, would not see anything of the sort coming and would not hop back in the Webway. Also, they would park all their Craftworlds next to these suns for the Tau to blow up.
Brilliant plan.
Anything that keeps the Eldar from committing enough vessels to win a fight ends in a Tau victory.
The Tau can make new warships. I'm not sure the Eldar still can.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EngulfedObject wrote: The aforementioned example was six Craftworlds working together. This is every Craftworld working together.
Unless you can site a source that indicates it is an event they can repeat, I think we can safely assume that they can't, given that they haven't since. Six craftworlds, by your description, could effortlessly jump around the galaxy nuking tyranids, Necrons, and Chaos incursions before they gain traction.
... and yet, they don't...
Probably because they can't repeat the feat. One-time use of a now-gone Old One weapon. Easy explanation of what happened.
A single bonesinger, working alone, can make the entire airframe of a wave serpent in less than a day. Well under a day actually, less than half a day. So the idea that the Eldar can no longer make starships is a non-starter. They can actually produce vessels FASTER than the Tau can if the amount of tonnage a single bonesinger can produce per hour is any indication, which it likely is.
How do you get around the fact that the Eldar can just read the skeins of fate and avoid your super weapon? They can literally see the future. What are you going to do about that? You do realize that your sun exploder is a net liability, right? The eldar specialize in seeing the future and then manipulating events subtly to bring about a change. That's their entire shtick. So the chance that sun exploder is going to go off, in a way the Tau really, really don't want it to (IE on T'au, with no Eldar nearby except maybe a few squads of pathfinders and striking scorpions) is exponentially higher than the Tau somehow pulling a fast one on the guys that can, you know, see the future.
What source needs to be cited? They somehow, facing no obvious threat, destroyed a 60 light year swath with less than 1/3 of the resources that would be dedicated to this campaign. 250 years ago. 250 years ago is a heartbeat to the Eldar as a whole. It is far more likely that since then, there has not been the confluence or particular need to repeat the event. You're drawing the wrong conclusion from it. It's not, oh, they did that once, so obviously they can never do it again (your..."logic") It's Wow, they did something that we didn't even know was possible, with no warning, for no obvious reason. It is included in the background to show Eldar caprice and lethality, not to be an accounting of their weapon stockpile.
What 'doomsday' weapons of the eldar are one use only? The only doomsday weapons mentioned in the background are the spear of twilight and the blackstone fortresses. Both of which are reusable as many times as you want. I'll need to see your source that indicates eldar doomsday weapons are one use only.
EmpNortonII wrote: It sure wouldn't hurt to have the 'quins sabotage the Eldar in the webway or have Tzeentch give the Nicaussar a map of them or an exact timeline of the Eldar invasion.
Why in the name of Cegorach would the Harlequins turn on the Eldar to save the Tau? Are you aware the Harlequins are Eldar too? Sabotage the Eldar in the Webway? Really? You don't think that's extremely far-fetched?
The Harlequins also protect the Black Library, which is... (*gasp*) a Craftworld. And Cegorach is an Eldar deity. There's no valid fluff reason why the Harlequins would support the Tau over the rest of the Craftworlds.
If the Tau are a 'Quinn experiment to create a race that can fight Chaos while starving them, then the Quinns would intervene to protect their pet project. The Craftworlders may die... but the Eldar will survive while That Bitch Slaanesh dies of hunger.
How do you get around the fact that the Eldar can just read the skeins of fate and avoid your super weapon? They can literally see the future. What are you going to do about that? You do realize that your sun exploder is a net liability, right? The eldar specialize in seeing the future and then manipulating events subtly to bring about a change. That's their entire shtick. So the chance that sun exploder is going to go off, in a way the Tau really, really don't want it to (IE on T'au, with no Eldar nearby except maybe a few squads of pathfinders and striking scorpions) is exponentially higher than the Tau somehow pulling a fast one on the guys that can, you know, see the future.
What source needs to be cited? They somehow, facing no obvious threat, destroyed a 60 light year swath with less than 1/3 of the resources that would be dedicated to this campaign. 250 years ago. 250 years ago is a heartbeat to the Eldar as a whole. It is far more likely that since then, there has not been the confluence or particular need to repeat the event. You're drawing the wrong conclusion from it. It's not, oh, they did that once, so obviously they can never do it again (your..."logic") It's Wow, they did something that we didn't even know was possible, with no warning, for no obvious reason. It is included in the background to show Eldar caprice and lethality, not to be an accounting of their weapon stockpile.
What 'doomsday' weapons of the eldar are one use only? The only doomsday weapons mentioned in the background are the spear of twilight and the blackstone fortresses. Both of which are reusable as many times as you want. I'll need to see your source that indicates eldar doomsday weapons are one use only.
EmpNortonII wrote: It sure wouldn't hurt to have the 'quins sabotage the Eldar in the webway or have Tzeentch give the Nicaussar a map of them or an exact timeline of the Eldar invasion.
Why in the name of Cegorach would the Harlequins turn on the Eldar to save the Tau? Are you aware the Harlequins are Eldar too? Sabotage the Eldar in the Webway? Really? You don't think that's extremely far-fetched?
The Harlequins also protect the Black Library, which is... (*gasp*) a Craftworld. And Cegorach is an Eldar deity. There's no valid fluff reason why the Harlequins would support the Tau over the rest of the Craftworlds.
If the Tau are a 'Quinn experiment to create a race that can fight Chaos while starving them, then the Quinns would intervene to protect their pet project. The Craftworlders may die... but the Eldar will survive while That Bitch Slaanesh dies of hunger.
Per the Harlequin codex Cegorach's plan is to save the Eldar race by tricking Slaneesh in to expending all of her power. So killing all the Craftworld Eldar to save the Tau would be a significant setback to say the least. Honestly, its absurd.
At any rate, this was CWE vs Tau, not CWE vs Tau(and supposed creators or whatever). When you try so desperately to add harlequins to the Tau you are just highlighting what a minor power the Tau are. The number of craftwords discussed in this thread is also the minimum. The count only includes GW/FW named ones. There are many more, even if they are less significant. The Tau as race are like the best minor league players, but they can't compete with a major league player. A fairer fight would be Tau vs Dark Eldar, and then only because the DE don't fight those kinds of wars.
I think some of you might be playing up the Eldar's strengths a little too much. I think that they would win too, but some of this is a little absurd.
While the eldar can predict the future, they can't literally see it, or they would never lose a battle, ever. They can see what the future 'might' bring, and act according to what they think will most likely happen, or to bring about the possible future (of which there are many!) that benefits them the most. They can also *gasp* get it wrong! In 'path of the seer' (memory might be a little rusty), the seer council are ready to dismiss Thirianna's visions due to her short time on the path, and only catch on that she is actually right in the nick of time. I'll accept that it's an advantage that the tau can't reliably counter, but lets not lay it on too thick.
I feel that the main reason the Tau can't compete in this fight is due to their small size. They're one of the few races in the galaxy that might actually be outnumbered by the eldar. Their strengths of adaptability, smart and incredibly close knit squads of soldiers, as well as their advancing technology (seem to be the only race in the galaxy actually doing this) are simply eclipsed by the fact that they can't bring them to bear if they've been quickly overwhelmed. If any faction was in the same sized boat, they'd get squished too.
The whole 'can't fight back' thing is obviously massive too, but it is only a matter of time before the Tau figure out a way around that.
Having said that, at the moment, they plainly cannot win the fight. If the tau follow their theme of progression and adaptability though, I'm sure they could match the Eldar in the future (as if GW will advance the timeline).
I assume the question means now, and not in a thousand years or so, so the answer is Eldar!
Eldar - no doubt about it. The assaults on the Tau worlds may be somewhat costly, but the vastly superior Eldar Navy means that this confrontation would be theirs.
Silverthorne wrote: What source needs to be cited? They somehow, facing no obvious threat, destroyed a 60 light year swath with less than 1/3 of the resources that would be dedicated to this campaign. 250 years ago. 250 years ago is a heartbeat to the Eldar as a whole. It is far more likely that since then, there has not been the confluence or particular need to repeat the event. You're drawing the wrong conclusion from it. It's not, oh, they did that once, so obviously they can never do it again (your..."logic") It's Wow, they did something that we didn't even know was possible, with no warning, for no obvious reason. It is included in the background to show Eldar caprice and lethality, not to be an accounting of their weapon stockpile.
Yea, that's how I see the event as well. It highlights Eldar caprice and lethality. Good way of putting it!
Trystis wrote: A fairer fight would be Tau vs Dark Eldar, and then only because the DE don't fight those kinds of wars.
Eh, I actually think a Dark Eldar vs Tau fight would end with the Tau coming out much worse for wear than this fight. The DE actually have pretty huge numbers compared to the Craftworld Eldar. And they have thoroughly outwitted and toyed with the Tau in their encounters so far.
Tarvitz77 wrote: Having said that, at the moment, they plainly cannot win the fight. If the tau follow their theme of progression and adaptability though, I'm sure they could match the Eldar in the future (as if GW will advance the timeline).
I assume the question means now, and not in a thousand years or so, so the answer is Eldar!
..........
FOR NOW!
Well, for the scope of this discussion I think it's logical to assume the fight starts as soon as possible. So yea, not in a thousand years, in 50k, or when GW advances the timeline.
And that involves the Eldar coming to the Tau so the ball is in Eldar hands. They can attack when, where, and how they choose. The Tau are entirely on the defensive in this scenario.
No need to make a spin-off thread about the same topic because you're bitter. There must be other reasons for you to like the Tau than thinking they're superior and can beat every other 40k faction in a straight up fight.
Differing objectives, enemies of equivalent power and lack of cohesion.
Objectives: The Eldars' 'victory' does not involve conquering the galaxy and wiping out the other races. Eldar victory involves destroying Slaanesh, keeping the C'tan sealed, and reinvigorating their population.
Enemies: Slaanesh, their current main enemy, exists outside time and is experiencing the future concurrently. Necrons can time-travel, which is almost as good as reading the skeins. In comparison, the Tau don't even understand the concepts against which the Eldar battle - their enemies are of a much lower power level themselves (The Imperium, the Orks).
Cohesion: In canon40k, such as it exists, different farseers see different parts of the skein and try to engineer different futures for different parts of the galaxy. Sometimes this has knock-on effects outside the boundaries of their foresight - such as Biel-tan giving Aurelia to the Orks to prevent a Tyranid invasion then resulting in the corruption of almost the entire Blood Raven chapter, meaning that when the Il-kaithe (for example) needs the Blood Ravens to be at full strength to block a Necron awakening, there aren't enough of them left to succeed.
However, in the scenario posited, all the Eldar are working together to achieve the same objectives in the same tiny area of space. Their visions won't conflict because they'll be seeing the same thing... of course, eliminating the Tau would potentially result in a Tyranid roll-over, which is another issue entirely.
This is fight that has no path to victory for the Tau.
On the Tabletop, the Eldar annihilate the Tau.
In the fluff, its even worse. The Eldar outnumber the Tau, they out technology the Tau, they out Void fight the Tau, they out ground fight the Tau, they out shoot the Tau, they out CC the Tau.
The Tau have nothing in the face of the full might of the Eldar.
PhillyT wrote: The Tau have nothing in the face of the full might of the Eldar.
Except the faith "For the Greater Good"
I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.
I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.
My gaming group once brainstormed the idea of Water caste diplomats doing their thing with a psychic race. We concluded that even the most gifted negotiators can do only so much when the opposition can literally read their minds... So this would lead to nowhere, or even backfire disastrously, depending on the nature of the initial approach (being honest/deceitful).
PhillyT wrote: The Tau have nothing in the face of the full might of the Eldar.
Except the faith "For the Greater Good"
I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.
That is outside the scope of the scenario. Given the parameters provided, this is a point after the Water Caste has failed to negotiate with the Eldar... probably because the Tau have nothing to offer them.
Really, what could the Tau offer the Eldar? The Eldar are far beyond the comprehension of the Tau. They are old and tired, understanding that the newness and zeal of the Tau will likely end in destruction against the waves that lay beyond their tiny area of space.
Or at least, thats what they think will likely happen since even their empire gave in to those pressures.
I tend to think DE will somehow "win 40k" since they are a surprisingly successful species in the lore and having the nutjob sadists winning is grimdark.
That being said,on a fluff perspective i tend to think tau v eldar would lead to both dying out. Eldar cant reproduce very quickly so each loss hits them like a train. The tau suffer from being in a galactic corner already and easily driven out of the galaxy. The tau would win in numbers and growth as well as mechanization (some of you are overestimating how much the eldar can build from wraithbone, if they could build as much as you are saying, they should have already won. Period.). The eldar would do their xenos trickery and try leading orks and tyranids to help them fight the tau, but they would risk and suffer losses in the meanwhile.
Im guessing the conflict would end with tau space being a wasteland of Ork and Tyranid with one, maybe 2 craftworld left, and the powers of chaos taking advantage of that.
PhillyT wrote: The Tau have nothing in the face of the full might of the Eldar.
Except the faith "For the Greater Good"
I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.
I would be interested to know what the Water-caste could possibly offer the Eldar as incentive to betray the Craftworlds. From the descriptions of the Craftworlds given in the novels and the stranded of living an Eldar can expect to have on a Craftworld i just can’t see them accepting anything the Tau could offer them?
PhillyT wrote: The Tau have nothing in the face of the full might of the Eldar.
Except the faith "For the Greater Good"
I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.
I would be interested to know what the Water-caste could possibly offer the Eldar as incentive to betray the Craftworlds. From the descriptions of the Craftworlds given in the novels and the stranded of living an Eldar can expect to have on a Craftworld i just can’t see them accepting anything the Tau could offer them?
Indeed. The Eldar basically live in a post-scarcity society. Which was what lead to their hedonism that caused Slannesh's birth and they now practice intense mental control to stop that from happening again, but they still live in a post-scarcity society and thus have no want of anything.
Tankman131 wrote: I tend to think DE will somehow "win 40k" since they are a surprisingly successful species in the lore and having the nutjob sadists winning is grimdark.
That being said,on a fluff perspective i tend to think tau v eldar would lead to both dying out. Eldar cant reproduce very quickly so each loss hits them like a train. The tau suffer from being in a galactic corner already and easily driven out of the galaxy. The tau would win in numbers and growth as well as mechanization (some of you are overestimating how much the eldar can build from wraithbone, if they could build as much as you are saying, they should have already won. Period.). The eldar would do their xenos trickery and try leading orks and tyranids to help them fight the tau, but they would risk and suffer losses in the meanwhile.
Im guessing the conflict would end with tau space being a wasteland of Ork and Tyranid with one, maybe 2 craftworld left, and the powers of chaos taking advantage of that.
The Eldar outnumber the Tau by a significant margin. The war would also last such a short period of time in the OP scenario that birth rates aren't relevant. It is essentially a battle royale with all forces hurled against each other.
Tankman131 wrote: I tend to think DE will somehow "win 40k" since they are a surprisingly successful species in the lore and having the nutjob sadists winning is grimdark.
That being said,on a fluff perspective i tend to think tau v eldar would lead to both dying out. Eldar cant reproduce very quickly so each loss hits them like a train. The tau suffer from being in a galactic corner already and easily driven out of the galaxy. The tau would win in numbers and growth as well as mechanization (some of you are overestimating how much the eldar can build from wraithbone, if they could build as much as you are saying, they should have already won. Period.). The eldar would do their xenos trickery and try leading orks and tyranids to help them fight the tau, but they would risk and suffer losses in the meanwhile.
Im guessing the conflict would end with tau space being a wasteland of Ork and Tyranid with one, maybe 2 craftworld left, and the powers of chaos taking advantage of that.
The Eldar outnumber the Tau by a significant margin. The war would also last such a short period of time in the OP scenario that birth rates aren't relevant. It is essentially a battle royale with all forces hurled against each other.
Are you sure? If you included DE yes, but I think you might overestimate the number of CE, and underestimate the number of tau. Thy tau are masters of terraforming, so that mean 4-5 habitable planets per system. With populations probably in the 10 billion range or so, even more so on some planets (I think the main sept world of bor'kan (at least I think it was bor'kan) is basicaly one giant planet-covering city. A tau version of a hive world, just sperad out so it's not so inhospitable.
And Eldar are supposed to have a very small population (at least of living eldar).
Tankman131 wrote: I tend to think DE will somehow "win 40k" since they are a surprisingly successful species in the lore and having the nutjob sadists winning is grimdark.
That being said,on a fluff perspective i tend to think tau v eldar would lead to both dying out. Eldar cant reproduce very quickly so each loss hits them like a train. The tau suffer from being in a galactic corner already and easily driven out of the galaxy. The tau would win in numbers and growth as well as mechanization (some of you are overestimating how much the eldar can build from wraithbone, if they could build as much as you are saying, they should have already won. Period.). The eldar would do their xenos trickery and try leading orks and tyranids to help them fight the tau, but they would risk and suffer losses in the meanwhile.
Im guessing the conflict would end with tau space being a wasteland of Ork and Tyranid with one, maybe 2 craftworld left, and the powers of chaos taking advantage of that.
The Eldar outnumber the Tau by a significant margin. The war would also last such a short period of time in the OP scenario that birth rates aren't relevant. It is essentially a battle royale with all forces hurled against each other.
Are you sure? If you included DE yes, but I think you might overestimate the number of CE, and underestimate the number of tau. Thy tau are masters of terraforming, so that mean 4-5 habitable planets per system. With populations probably in the 10 billion range or so, even more so on some planets (I think the main sept world of bor'kan (at least I think it was bor'kan) is basicaly one giant planet-covering city. A tau version of a hive world, just sperad out so it's not so inhospitable.
And Eldar are supposed to have a very small population (at least of living eldar).
I myself dont consider DE in the population as they would not fight alongside CW eldar, neither would the exodites. Tau has their fully populated planets along with gue'vesa, vespids, kroot, etc who commonly fight alongside or for the tau whether for communism or for money as the kroots do.
I also thought about it and realized that a protracted engaged such as would be necessary for eldar to take and defeat tau worlds would make slaanesh salivate. Eldar would have to deal with tau in the front and slaanesh sneaking up for tasty soul pop rocks. That in itself would decimate the number of wraithbone constructs.
Tankman131 wrote: I myself dont consider DE in the population as they would not fight alongside CW eldar, neither would the exodites. Tau has their fully populated planets along with gue'vesa, vespids, kroot, etc who commonly fight alongside or for the tau whether for communism or for money as the kroots do.
I also thought about it and realized that a protracted engaged such as would be necessary for eldar to take and defeat tau worlds would make slaanesh salivate. Eldar would have to deal with tau in the front and slaanesh sneaking up for tasty soul pop rocks. That in itself would decimate the number of wraithbone constructs.
Oh for the love of.... it's just Craftworld Eldar vs Tau, not Craftworld Eldar vs Tau + Slaanesh or CwE vs Tau + Harlequins or CwE vs Tau + Tzeentch, or any other scenario. And no, Dark Eldar are not Craftworld Eldar.
Tankman131 wrote: I tend to think DE will somehow "win 40k" since they are a surprisingly successful species in the lore and having the nutjob sadists winning is grimdark.
That being said,on a fluff perspective i tend to think tau v eldar would lead to both dying out. Eldar cant reproduce very quickly so each loss hits them like a train. The tau suffer from being in a galactic corner already and easily driven out of the galaxy. The tau would win in numbers and growth as well as mechanization (some of you are overestimating how much the eldar can build from wraithbone, if they could build as much as you are saying, they should have already won. Period.). The eldar would do their xenos trickery and try leading orks and tyranids to help them fight the tau, but they would risk and suffer losses in the meanwhile.
Im guessing the conflict would end with tau space being a wasteland of Ork and Tyranid with one, maybe 2 craftworld left, and the powers of chaos taking advantage of that.
The Eldar outnumber the Tau by a significant margin. The war would also last such a short period of time in the OP scenario that birth rates aren't relevant. It is essentially a battle royale with all forces hurled against each other.
Are you sure? If you included DE yes, but I think you might overestimate the number of CE, and underestimate the number of tau. Thy tau are masters of terraforming, so that mean 4-5 habitable planets per system. With populations probably in the 10 billion range or so, even more so on some planets (I think the main sept world of bor'kan (at least I think it was bor'kan) is basicaly one giant planet-covering city. A tau version of a hive world, just sperad out so it's not so inhospitable.
And Eldar are supposed to have a very small population (at least of living eldar).
The exact size of a Craftworlds population is always going to be up for debate as no two Craftworlds are exactly the same. But considering their size and the number of known and unknown ones out there compared to the number of inhabited planets within the Tau Empire it’s not out of the question to assume that the total overall size of each race’s population will be very close to each other, enough to make the difference negligible.
I think the Eldar have a pretty good chance of beating the Tau. I think the only way the Tau would really "win" is based entirely on what the victory conditions actually are (which unless I'm missing something, is a little bit vague). If it's complete extermination, then of course the Eldar win due to the fact that they will easily win in space combat, and then they can do everything they want to with regards to destroying planets.
If the victory condition was to obtain all the other sides planets/ craftworlds, then again the Eldar will win easily, but due to the whole Tau policy of "What's the point of fighting to own terrain", there would be a mass exodus from the Tau worlds. I'm not saying it would be massively successful, more they'd still be some Tau kicking around after the Eldar had moved in.
If the victory conditions are more "Who would win if they both sides fight without deploying doomsday weapons and the like," then the Eldar will still have a very good chance of winning, but the Tau do have a tiny chance of winning.
In space, I think we can all agree that the Tau loose pretty badly. They might get lucky and be able to knock out Eldar vessels by hiding them under the sand
Spoiler:
In the Badab War books, the Mantic Warriors manage to hide two Gladius escorts under the desert of a planet. They then trick the Dark Eldar into attacking the desert world, and manage to ambush the Dark Eldar when they are in orbit of the planet. Maybe the Eldar can use the same strategies on an important Eldar capital ship? Maybe even a craftworld?
On the ground, again, conventional warfare is in the Eldar's favour. The Eldar can beat the Tau in pretty much any style of fighting through sheer numbers, let alone technology or psychic abilities. The only way I can see the Tau winning is by using really unconventional means, but I'm not even sure how they'd do that outside of mass deployment of Seismic Fibrillator Nodes (and I don't imagine the anti-grav eldar stuff will get affected by Earthquakes). The only advantage that the Tau have is that I don't imagine the Eldar would deploy all of their forces. I'd argue that despite external factors being ignored, the Eldar still wouldn't want to throw away their lives recklessly. If we consider the difference in power levels, then there's no point in throwing that much force at the Tau.
I'd also like to point out with regards to technology, that The Tau have shown some ability in actually adapting to their opponents. Even if the Tau couldn't reverse engineer anything that is created with psychic "technology?", what's to stop them from understanding Bright Light, of figuring out how Holo-fields work for example. If they can reverse engineer some of that technology, then their chance of winning might go as far as 1%, and at the very least they would be able to inflict more casualties.
Spoiler:
One of the Apocalypse Stategems for Tau was an Anti-Necron Missile, and the newest Super Battlesuits are designed specifically to take on enemy super heavies that Tiger Sharks and the like can't deal with
Tarvitz77 In 'path of the seer' (memory might be a little rusty), the seer council are ready to dismiss Thirianna's visions due to her short time on the path, and only catch on that she is actually right in the nick of time.
Path of the Seer does give a good insight into the Eldar's divination abilities, and it really shows that although they can see pretty much every scenario, they can't "process" anywhere near all of them so to speak. It also shows that they are just as likely to change fate as they are to be the cause of it.
Out of interest, for ground warfare, would large scale application of Drones cause problems for the Eldar? The Eldar could only really use their damage based psychic powers, and I imagine that the Tau would develop Anti-Shuriken defences, which might nullify a decent proportion of the Eldar's firepower. If it causes them to have to deploy heavy weaponry to take out Drones, then the Eldar aren't exactly dominating the war.
Just want to point out the Eldar would still win pretty much every scenario I can think of, its more how much damage can the Tau do before they die. I would love to see a fight between Farsight versus Prince Yriel, or Shadowsun versus Illic
I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.
My gaming group once brainstormed the idea of Water caste diplomats doing their thing with a psychic race. We concluded that even the most gifted negotiators can do only so much when the opposition can literally read their minds... So this would lead to nowhere, or even backfire disastrously, depending on the nature of the initial approach (being honest/deceitful).
Co'tor Shas wrote:
Are you sure? If you included DE yes, but I think you might overestimate the number of CE, and underestimate the number of tau. Thy tau are masters of terraforming, so that mean 4-5 habitable planets per system. With populations probably in the 10 billion range or so, even more so on some planets (I think the main sept world of bor'kan (at least I think it was bor'kan) is basicaly one giant planet-covering city. A tau version of a hive world, just sperad out so it's not so inhospitable.
And Eldar are supposed to have a very small population (at least of living eldar).
Yes, but then you need to take into account the different abilities to mobilise.
The Tau can only mobilise maybe a third of their population - and a third of that will be aerospace pilots who can't hope to keep up with their Eldar equivalents - due to their caste system. Water, Earth and Ethereal are noncombatants. Most Air caste are also noncombatants.
The Eldar can mobilise their entire population if they need to. The Aspect Warriors are their equivalent to the Fire Caste, but unlike the Tau, all Eldar are combat-trained. Every artist, farmer, bonesinger, physicist, scullery maid on the Craftworld has combat training and superior physiology to the point where, brute strength aside, they're equal to Space Marines.
Co'tor Shas wrote:
Are you sure? If you included DE yes, but I think you might overestimate the number of CE, and underestimate the number of tau. Thy tau are masters of terraforming, so that mean 4-5 habitable planets per system. With populations probably in the 10 billion range or so, even more so on some planets (I think the main sept world of bor'kan (at least I think it was bor'kan) is basicaly one giant planet-covering city. A tau version of a hive world, just sperad out so it's not so inhospitable.
And Eldar are supposed to have a very small population (at least of living eldar).
Yes, but then you need to take into account the different abilities to mobilise.
The Tau can only mobilise maybe a third of their population - and a third of that will be aerospace pilots who can't hope to keep up with their Eldar equivalents - due to their caste system. Water, Earth and Ethereal are noncombatants. Most Air caste are also noncombatants.
The Eldar can mobilise their entire population if they need to. The Aspect Warriors are their equivalent to the Fire Caste, but unlike the Tau, all Eldar are combat-trained. Every artist, farmer, bonesinger, physicist, scullery maid on the Craftworld has combat training and superior physiology to the point where, brute strength aside, they're equal to Space Marines.
Oh, I agree completely, I just disagreed that there were more CE than Tau.
Basically, tau are fethed. Unless they can figure out how to mass produce those warp power canceling medallions that farsight has, they stand no chance. Even if they do figure out how to do that, it will the be the hardest fight they will have ever had, and will probably enough to break them to the point of near collepse even if they do win. The imperium could just steamroll them at that point, would have two enemies out of the way.
Firstly, it needs to be considered what the respective faction's goal in such a war is, but given the OP I think the sprit of the discussion is that each faction is seeking the total annihilation/conquest of the opposing faction, so we'll work with that.
As for who would 'win'; just on the face of it; it's hard to say for sure. There are a number of significant factors that would have an effect, that we just don't have hard info on. There are 2 big ones that stand out to me.
POPULATION: Hard numbers on both the Tau and the Eldar are difficulty (or impossible) to find. Particularly as some information imply/suggests numbers that contradict themselves. For instance; the 'Tau Empire' map in the codex, simultaneously implies that Septs can cover multiple nearby star systems, and that they are limited to one star-system each. Personally I interpret Tau space as being densely populated, & their numbers a being reasonably high, higher, by a reasonable margin, than the Eldar, but the opposite interpretation is just as easy to make.
INTERSTELLAR ACCESS: Eldar FTL (the webway + small, temp, webway tunnels) is considerably faster than TAU FTL (Warp skimming). However, though the Webway is a great advantage, it is also a significant hamstring. It doesn't reach everywhere, and the Eldar have no alternative FTL. According to the Eldar Codex, it reaches to 'Thousands of locations' . . . in a galaxy of hundreds of billions of Stars. Even if that is a gross underestimate; it's still safe to assume there would be large numbers of whole star systems that they are cut off from. We don't know if the Eldar can access all the Tau Systems, if they can't, then a 'win' (i.e. annihilation of the Tau) is almost impossible.
Of course, by the same token, the only way the Tau have a chance at 'victory' (i.e. annihilation of the Eldar) is if they can attack the Craftwords directly, and they would only be able to do that if the Eldar were stupid enough to bring them within reach (which they have no reason to do).
Honestly; I haven't voted in the poll, as I think a stalemate is the most likely outcome, given my own interpretation of the universe.
I'll call an end to this one. Seems eldar win this battle.
-eldar can see paths of fate, but don't know which ones are true, often they can change 'fate' by manipulating events, however this is far from 'seeing the future' often they succeed, largely with some complications though.
But it does seem consensus is to eldar, continue the debate if you wish but it seems fairly one-sided on the poll.
raiden wrote: I'll call an end to this one. Seems eldar win this battle.
-eldar can see paths of fate, but don't know which ones are true, often they can change 'fate' by manipulating events, however this is far from 'seeing the future' often they succeed, largely with some complications though.
But it does seem consensus is to eldar, continue the debate if you wish but it seems fairly one-sided on the poll.
The downplaying of the Farseer’s prophetic abilities seems a bit odd; they aren’t some cheap carnival act relying on dumb luck and simple guess work. A perfect prediction is always going to be a nearly impossible task given that the future is always in a state of flux, which is why it is normal practice for Farseer’s to consult with their peers before acting on their visions. Farseer’s will and have acted independently when other Seers have dismissed their visions but this is the exception not the norm and generally ends very badly for everyone involved. In this scenario all of the Craftworld’s Farseer’s are working together to battle a single enemy, the combined effort of their collective minds will almost certainly reduce any mistakes or oversights to a bare minimum.
Source please? From what I've read, Eldar Bonesingers are more than capable of maintaining Craftworlds, which have populations of hundreds of millions or billions.
They are now approximately 10 to 100 times bigger in volume than they were before the Fall.
Assuming that all 28 known GW Craftworlds were to unite, they would have a.)a higher population b.)doomsday weapons from before the Fall c.)Void superiority due to numerically/technologically superior Void craft (see: 50 fething million years as an empire that was continually developing technology) d.) higher industrial capability (see: the speed at which Bonesingers build ships) e.) unmatched psychic prowess (unmatched by any but Alpha Psykers and/or Greater Daemons) and, last, but not least, f.) a gak-ton of robots
Again, we no nothing about population. A conservative estimate for tau would put them in the 1-2 trillion range (or, to put it another way, 20 populated planets). And there is very little indicatio on the actualy numbers in craftwrolds. They could certainly have more, but it's not definite at all.
Assume no other faction interference, just tau and what are left of eldar craftworlds (no dark eldar) which faction would come out on top?
OP, I would like some clarification on this.
Does "no other faction interference" are we supposed to assume that the Dark Eldar have stopped using the webways and that the chaos daemons throughout them have just magically disappeared? Or does it assume that there is no direct interference, and the chaos daemons keep eating what they come across and the DE keep pillaging the places they tend to pillage?
Currently, using the webways is a dangerous prospect for Eldar. It seems a little off for the Craftworlders to unexpectantly get access to a resource that is incredibly dangerous for them without the danger.
Assume no other faction interference, just tau and what are left of eldar craftworlds (no dark eldar) which faction would come out on top?
OP, I would like some clarification on this.
Does "no other faction interference" are we supposed to assume that the Dark Eldar have stopped using the webways and that the chaos daemons throughout them have just magically disappeared? Or does it assume that there is no direct interference, and the chaos daemons keep eating what they come across and the DE keep pillaging the places they tend to pillage?
Currently, using the webways is a dangerous prospect for Eldar. It seems a little off for the Craftworlders to unexpectantly get access to a resource that is incredibly dangerous for them without the danger.
Just to clarify: Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar do not see each as such. They are not different factions, they simply see each other as Eldar. It would not matter whether an Eldar encounters another Eldar in the Webway, unless they were at odds with that specific Craftworld/Kabal. The Kabals also do not raid the Webway, they raid realspace.
And there aren't very many daemons in the Webway to be eating Eldar souls. Thats kinda the entire reason the Eldar made the Webway, so they wouldn't have to use the Warp to travel.
Sure, they see each other as Eldar, but that doesn't mean they don't make distinctions. The Craftworld Eldar will very much go out of their way to seal off sections of the webway from the Dark Eldar and other such things, while the Dark Eldar have no compunctions about killing Craftworld Eldar, and in fact, Incubi must slay Craftworld Eldar as part of their training. They are not pals or allies or anything of the sort, the Dark Eldar are the Old Eldar, the Eldar that caused the fall, the people that the Craftworld Eldar intentionally cut themselves off from. They may not typically actively war against one-another, but randomly encountering each other within the webway would not simply be like passing a normal person on the street, violence would be a very real possibility.
They may sometimes fight a common foe, but the two groups don't see each other as being identical to themselves. Even when the Dark Eldar came to the aid of Iyanden, it was not something the Craftworlders expected, hope for, or asked for, rather, a single Cabal had joined the fray because they found Iyanden's plight of having to stoop so low as having to mass-conscript their dead for the fight as being "entertaining".
There's even a physiological difference, the Dark Eldar require the pain and suffering of others as a form of sustenance, the Craftworld Eldar don't get anything from that.
Currently, using the webways is a dangerous prospect for Eldar. It seems a little off for the Craftworlders to unexpectantly get access to a resource that is incredibly dangerous for them without the danger.
I've never see that reference except for occasionally shut off areas. The Eldar use Webway portals all the time and rarely seem to have problems with it. The Necrons were said to struggle but that's because the Webway itself reacts against them not due to any threat inside. Whilst the Dark Eldar do use it I doubt any Kabals would be up for a fight against the whole of the Craftworld Eldar. Daemons generally don't get access to the Webway either.
Vaktathi wrote:They are not pals or allies or anything of the sort, the Dark Eldar are the Old Eldar, the Eldar that caused the fall, the people that the Craftworld Eldar intentionally cut themselves off from. They may not typically actively war against one-another, but randomly encountering each other within the webway would not simply be like passing a normal person on the street, violence would be a very real possibility.
While this is true the difference between the two groups would be staggering. A Dark Eldar expedition would either beat a very hasty retreat or be destroyed quite quickly against the might of the Craftworld Eldar. Since they're still divided like normal, they'd have a massive disadvantage.
As far as I know we have no precise figures on population or 'territory' of either the Eldar or Tau. we can only make guesses.
For the Eldar we can turn to the Craftworld Iyanden supplement:
In their pride, the Eldar of Iyanden underestimated the threat. They believed that their might could weather even this storm, that their armies and fleets could vanquish the Great Devourer. Alas, they were terribly wrong. In an eye blink, as the Eldar reckon existence, Iyanden Craftworld was reduced to ruin. The craftworld's armies and fleets were all but gone, destroyed by the relentless Tyranid advance. Countless billions were slain, whole families and bloodlines lost forever; the living were outnumbered many times over by the dead.
We also know from past fluff and later int he same book
Fourt-fifths of the population lay dead or dying in the battle-scarred halls - a terrible blow to the declining Eldar race.
So basically 80% of Iyanden's dead constituted 'billions' slain. It also means the otehr 20% represents some 500 million at least. The state of Post-Kraken Iyanden is described as being a ruin, tattred remnants, a shadow of its glory (where it was once one of the most populous worlds) and in earlier codexes (4th) being on the brink of extinction despite still having hundreds of millions of Eldar. That argues many if not most other Craftworlds would be more populous than that. That is reinforced by the more recent codex Craftworlds:
Iyanden was once among the most populous of the craftworlds – its wraithbone spires and crystal domes echoed to the voices of billions of Eldar as they went about their lives, believing themselves equal to any threat the universe might have in store. But such arrogance always leads to tragedy. Eventually, the craftworld drifted into the path of a tendril of Hive Fleet Kraken. Unprepared for the ferocity of the Tyranids, Iyanden suffered greatly, countless Eldar devoured to feed the fathomless hunger of the hive fleet. Only the return of the exiled Prince Yriel and his Corsair fleet saved the craftworld from being completely annihilated. Even so, the damage had been done. Where there had once been a teeming world-scape in space, there now drifted a ghost ship.
We dont know how many Craftworlds there exactly are, but we know a lower limit due to the same codex:
Since then, the most morbid of Asurmen’s pupils have founded shrines across a hundred craftworlds, Maugan Ra’s Dark Reaper disciples valuing the spectacular long-ranged kill above all else.
Given half a billion Eldar as a lower limit, with 100 craftworlds that means there are perhaps at least 50 billion Craftworld Eldar as an estimate (accurate maybe to within an order of magnitude or so, perhaps? Moreso if there are far more Craftworlds than I estimated, which may be the case. The FFG stuff implied that there were 1000 Avatars of Khaine, which might imply at least 10x as many Craftworlds.)
As far as the Tau go, we don't have concrete idea of their sizes currenlty (as of Third Sphere) but we did know from the 4th (I believe) Tau codex the following:
Though not extensive, it encompasses a region of space some three hundred light years in diameter, with the Tau homeworld at its centre, and just over a hundred settled worlds. A number of these worlds are home to alien races which are either subservient to the Tau or whose services are bought.
As I said I think that was prior to Third sphere, but as far as I know they haven't conquered many times that number of worlds in that by any source I am aware, at most maybe twice that. We also don't have any concrete numbers on population (I know one source hinted somewhere they had at least one world with billions, but I can't find it) but we do know they consider Hive worlds like Agrellan overpopulated:
Damocles wrote:As such, guaranteeing their security was nigh on impossible. The cities were vast. No matter how quickly the armed forces capitulated or were routed, the hives were occupied by fractious populations. Not everyone was going to see the tau as a liberating power. The hives would take days to fully pacify, the spaceports and landing pads would be prime targets for every fanatic with a bomb and a death wish. The tau couldn’t risk their constructor groups or administrators coming under attack. Bu had also told me that the earth caste was amazed – in a very bad way – at the hive cities. Some ambitious plans were mooted to convert them, but as Bu said, it’d take a long time to make them fit for the Greater Good, and in any case the population of the world was going to be greatly reduced as the earth caste calculated Agrellan was well over its optimum population loading.
Agrellan is rather tiny as Hive worlds go, a mere 16.7 billion and at this point quite possibly even less than that, given that earlier in the book Shadowsun had at least wiped out 7 billion due to that 'cunning' lunar death ray of doom terror tactic, so they probably don't have much above the current population of Earth per world (if even that, the Tau are all about planning and maximizing efficient use of resources and sustainability if they can.. tis why they micromanage every little facet of people's lives up to and including reproduction.) Lets say roughly half that, nearly 5 billion, averaged amongst 100 worlds, there would be ~500 billion Tau.
Now that does seem to favor the Tau in an attirtional sense, but there's alot of qualifiers even apart from the fact I'm extrapolating from alot of disparate sources. For one thing, I was lowballing alot of the Eldar stuff deliberately (lower limits on population estimates, craftworld, etc.) whereas I was also deliberately being more liberal with the Tau ones as far as the information I have goes (I'm estimating downwards from Agrellan.) Moreover it doesn't factor in breakdown of forces - the primarily military troops will be concentrated in fire warriors, air caste, and auxilia, whereas in principle you can mobilze EVERY Eldar as a warrior, even if just a Guardian. It also doesn't factor in any contributions from Ghost Warriors or similar.)
There is also the territorial issues. The tau as noted are across some 300 LY. They have warp routes and Ether drive (actually have both as I recall from the more recent online WD stuff:
White Dwarf issue 7 wrote:Now the Tau Empire is driving hard into Imperial space, determined to capture the area to the galactic west of the Damocles Gulf, which hems the Tau Empire into the extreme eastern fringe of the galaxy. The gulf is exceedingly perilous to travel through, especially for the Tau, who lack the capacity to travel through the Warp. They have now learned the few safe routes through it, and intend to use them as a highway into the heart of the Imperium.
White Dwarf Issue 35 wrote:The Tau are virtually psychic nulls, their souls barely a glimmer in the Warp. No Tau has ever shown even a sprinkling of psychic talent, though the Ethereal caste do seem to wield unnatural power over their subjects. With no psykers, the Tau also have no way of using Warp travel effectively. Unlike Imperial ships, which can dive into the Warp guided by a Navigator, the Tau have to settle for skimming between realspace and the Warp – a much slower process.
They also have FTL communications (4th edition codex and the Shadowsun story from awhile back) so they are well situated there defensively. Offensively, however, they have very limited ways of striking directly at the Craftworlds unless they all happen to conveniently converge on the Tau Empire and sit within striking range - the Eldar have no reason to do this due to the Webway (And indeed, probably no real way to do it given that most Craftworlds AFAIK are strictly sublight affairs) and they also have warp drive (albeit the short range 4-5 LY per hop variety, apart from the dangers of the warp they face in doing so.) but this generally seems to favor the Eldar unless for some reason there are absolutely no webway gates into or near Tau space or we totally deprive them of warp drive (and if that is done, someone could just make a similar case for depriving the Tau, so that literally goes nowhere.) So the Tau have very little way of directly striking at the Eldar, whilst the same cannot be said of the Eldar. Even if no webway gates lead directly onto any Tau worlds, they can deploy ships through them nearby and then deploy from orbit (they have considerable orbitla superiority, and as the Path of the Eldar novels demonstrate, they can create temporary webway portals over short distances - such as the surfaces of planets from ships.)
This means the Tau basically have to find some way to invade and access the Craftworlds via webway gates. This is not beyond possibility, since humans have done so on more than one occasion (although I'd say far from simple) and even then it would be a double edged sword. On one hand, it gives them a means of (At least on foot) striking directly at the Eldar even over vast distances. On the other hand, they have to map out and navigate the webway, and this also creates predictable avenues of attack from which they can be struck at (and if it wasn't for the contrived nature of the debate you can bet there would be other threats they would contest with in the webway, including probably the webway itself. If the webway frowns on Necrons inside it, it may frown on the Tau themselves.)
Troop quality can be argued over or disputed, but I would point out the Eldar quite probably have certain advantages when it comes to vehicles. For one thing, most eldar Grav craft are effectively part aircraft - Tau grav vehicles can pull some 70-100 kph (or up to 150 kph per White Dwarf I've heard.. the ones I mention are strictly IA sources of various times) but the Eldar pull at least that fast if not faster (800-850 kph for Falcons and Wave Serpents, at least at higher altitudes) which gives them much more battlefield mobility and flexibility on top of being able to deploy from Orbit. even if everything else (firepower, etc.) held equal and they had an edge in numbers and durability (which they might have), the Eldar can concentrate and deploy much more rapidly (creating a situation for the Tau not unlike what the Imperium at times faces against the Tau.) Air craft are an issue there of course, but its likely the Eldar at least have parity if not advantage in aeronautica/aerospace craft (apart from maybe the Manta, but the Eldar have plenty of superheavy/Titan grade vehicles of their own, and they also have starfighters)
And whilst Psychic stuff or superweapon stuff seem rather irrelevant (if it came down to that superweapons matter less than orbital and naval superiority.. which if the Eldar have that, they can pretty much do whatever the feth they want and wipe out worlds at their leisure with conventional weapons, nevermind wanky stuff.) But psychic stuff can be beneficial in minor ways - command and control and intel functions mainly, as well as some probability manipulation. It doesn't have to be a HUGE impact to be decisive (and it doesn't have to be game winning in and of itself.. it probably isn't) but it will play a huge role in things since Seers and Farseers can use the warp to help predict and plan attacks (which is pretty much part of their MO) against the Tau far better than the Tau are likely to predict.
It isn't any one thing, and this isn't to say the Tau are going to go down without inflicting any losses (or neccesarily even significant losses), but even if things like population favor the Tau, the operational and strategic realities of the situation tend to favor the Eldar barring any of the 'ifs' I specified above. The Tau can try and invade and conquer/destroy Craftworlds (and may even successed, as again the Imperium can sometimes pull this off) but its not going to be easy. Remember Iyanden was all but wiped out by a major branch of hive fleet Kraken, but still managed to win with last minute aid, whereas the Tau could barely stand up to Gorgon without help.
Incidentally I did run across this looking through the Iyanden stuff, which I think sort of reinforces the above assessment:
The maiden world of Lilarsus is destroyed by expansionist Tau forces. This provokes a bloody response from Iyanden, and the Ke'lshan sept colony of Ka'mais is reduced to rubble during the reprisals. The Tau counter-attack, though slow to mobilise, is determined and well-coordinated, and the aliens recover the wreckage of several Wraithguard as the Eldar withdraw. Earth caste scientists are fascinated by the prizes, thinking them to be more sophisticated versions of their own battlesuits. However, the secrets of psycho-conductive wraithbone prove to lie far beyond the Tau's clumsy grasp, and the wreckage is soon recovered when the Eldar return in force.
That might help with context, although this was I believe pre-Kraken Iyanden.
Actually, tau efficiency would mean more dense, not less. At this point on earth, overpopulation does not exist. Uneven rescorse spread is the problem. We could support, I think the estimate was, 15 times our current population. So I average tau population at 10 billion per world (a mere 3 billion more than out current population). At 200 worlds, give or take, that's about 2 trillion. That seems like a lot, but on a galactic scale it's infinitesimal. The human population is probably in the sectillions.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Actually, tau efficiency would mean more dense, not less. At this point on earth, overpopulation does not exist. Uneven rescorse spread is the problem. We could support, I think the estimate was, 15 times our current population. So I average tau population at 10 billion per world (a mere 3 billion more than out current population).
The problem is resource consumption and not space. IRL, if you wanted to give everyone a nice and satisfying lifestyle (First World standard), you would need something like four Earths - and only to sustain the population, extra resources for growth and development are still out of question here.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Actually, tau efficiency would mean more dense, not less. At this point on earth, overpopulation does not exist. Uneven rescorse spread is the problem. We could support, I think the estimate was, 15 times our current population. So I average tau population at 10 billion per world (a mere 3 billion more than out current population).
The problem is resource consumption and not space. IRL, if you wanted to give everyone a nice and satisfying lifestyle (First World standard), you would need something like four Earths - and only to sustain the population, extra resources for growth and development are still out of question here.
That's what I was talking about. And with tau, you would have stuff like underground farms, crops genetically engineered to be as efficient as possible, all sorts of stuff. 10 billion would be easily obtainable by them.
As far as I know we have no precise figures on population or 'territory' of either the Eldar or Tau. we can only make guesses.
For the Eldar we can turn to the Craftworld Iyanden supplement:
In their pride, the Eldar of Iyanden underestimated the threat. They believed that their might could weather even this storm, that their armies and fleets could vanquish the Great Devourer. Alas, they were terribly wrong. In an eye blink, as the Eldar reckon existence, Iyanden Craftworld was reduced to ruin. The craftworld's armies and fleets were all but gone, destroyed by the relentless Tyranid advance. Countless billions were slain, whole families and bloodlines lost forever; the living were outnumbered many times over by the dead.
We also know from past fluff and later int he same book
Fourt-fifths of the population lay dead or dying in the battle-scarred halls - a terrible blow to the declining Eldar race.
So basically 80% of Iyanden's dead constituted 'billions' slain. It also means the otehr 20% represents some 500 million at least. The state of Post-Kraken Iyanden is described as being a ruin, tattred remnants, a shadow of its glory (where it was once one of the most populous worlds) and in earlier codexes (4th) being on the brink of extinction despite still having hundreds of millions of Eldar. That argues many if not most other Craftworlds would be more populous than that. That is reinforced by the more recent codex Craftworlds:
Iyanden was once among the most populous of the craftworlds – its wraithbone spires and crystal domes echoed to the voices of billions of Eldar as they went about their lives, believing themselves equal to any threat the universe might have in store. But such arrogance always leads to tragedy. Eventually, the craftworld drifted into the path of a tendril of Hive Fleet Kraken. Unprepared for the ferocity of the Tyranids, Iyanden suffered greatly, countless Eldar devoured to feed the fathomless hunger of the hive fleet. Only the return of the exiled Prince Yriel and his Corsair fleet saved the craftworld from being completely annihilated. Even so, the damage had been done. Where there had once been a teeming world-scape in space, there now drifted a ghost ship.
We dont know how many Craftworlds there exactly are, but we know a lower limit due to the same codex:
Since then, the most morbid of Asurmen’s pupils have founded shrines across a hundred craftworlds, Maugan Ra’s Dark Reaper disciples valuing the spectacular long-ranged kill above all else.
Given half a billion Eldar as a lower limit, with 100 craftworlds that means there are perhaps at least 50 billion Craftworld Eldar as an estimate (accurate maybe to within an order of magnitude or so, perhaps? Moreso if there are far more Craftworlds than I estimated, which may be the case. The FFG stuff implied that there were 1000 Avatars of Khaine, which might imply at least 10x as many Craftworlds.)
As far as the Tau go, we don't have concrete idea of their sizes currenlty (as of Third Sphere) but we did know from the 4th (I believe) Tau codex the following:
Though not extensive, it encompasses a region of space some three hundred light years in diameter, with the Tau homeworld at its centre, and just over a hundred settled worlds. A number of these worlds are home to alien races which are either subservient to the Tau or whose services are bought.
As I said I think that was prior to Third sphere, but as far as I know they haven't conquered many times that number of worlds in that by any source I am aware, at most maybe twice that. We also don't have any concrete numbers on population (I know one source hinted somewhere they had at least one world with billions, but I can't find it) but we do know they consider Hive worlds like Agrellan overpopulated:
Damocles wrote:As such, guaranteeing their security was nigh on impossible. The cities were vast. No matter how quickly the armed forces capitulated or were routed, the hives were occupied by fractious populations. Not everyone was going to see the tau as a liberating power. The hives would take days to fully pacify, the spaceports and landing pads would be prime targets for every fanatic with a bomb and a death wish. The tau couldn’t risk their constructor groups or administrators coming under attack. Bu had also told me that the earth caste was amazed – in a very bad way – at the hive cities. Some ambitious plans were mooted to convert them, but as Bu said, it’d take a long time to make them fit for the Greater Good, and in any case the population of the world was going to be greatly reduced as the earth caste calculated Agrellan was well over its optimum population loading.
Agrellan is rather tiny as Hive worlds go, a mere 16.7 billion and at this point quite possibly even less than that, given that earlier in the book Shadowsun had at least wiped out 7 billion due to that 'cunning' lunar death ray of doom terror tactic, so they probably don't have much above the current population of Earth per world (if even that, the Tau are all about planning and maximizing efficient use of resources and sustainability if they can.. tis why they micromanage every little facet of people's lives up to and including reproduction.) Lets say roughly half that, nearly 5 billion, averaged amongst 100 worlds, there would be ~500 billion Tau.
Now that does seem to favor the Tau in an attirtional sense, but there's alot of qualifiers even apart from the fact I'm extrapolating from alot of disparate sources. For one thing, I was lowballing alot of the Eldar stuff deliberately (lower limits on population estimates, craftworld, etc.) whereas I was also deliberately being more liberal with the Tau ones as far as the information I have goes (I'm estimating downwards from Agrellan.) Moreover it doesn't factor in breakdown of forces - the primarily military troops will be concentrated in fire warriors, air caste, and auxilia, whereas in principle you can mobilze EVERY Eldar as a warrior, even if just a Guardian. It also doesn't factor in any contributions from Ghost Warriors or similar.)
There is also the territorial issues. The tau as noted are across some 300 LY. They have warp routes and Ether drive (actually have both as I recall from the more recent online WD stuff:
White Dwarf issue 7 wrote:Now the Tau Empire is driving hard into Imperial space, determined to capture the area to the galactic west of the Damocles Gulf, which hems the Tau Empire into the extreme eastern fringe of the galaxy. The gulf is exceedingly perilous to travel through, especially for the Tau, who lack the capacity to travel through the Warp. They have now learned the few safe routes through it, and intend to use them as a highway into the heart of the Imperium.
White Dwarf Issue 35 wrote:The Tau are virtually psychic nulls, their souls barely a glimmer in the Warp. No Tau has ever shown even a sprinkling of psychic talent, though the Ethereal caste do seem to wield unnatural power over their subjects. With no psykers, the Tau also have no way of using Warp travel effectively. Unlike Imperial ships, which can dive into the Warp guided by a Navigator, the Tau have to settle for skimming between realspace and the Warp – a much slower process.
They also have FTL communications (4th edition codex and the Shadowsun story from awhile back) so they are well situated there defensively. Offensively, however, they have very limited ways of striking directly at the Craftworlds unless they all happen to conveniently converge on the Tau Empire and sit within striking range - the Eldar have no reason to do this due to the Webway (And indeed, probably no real way to do it given that most Craftworlds AFAIK are strictly sublight affairs) and they also have warp drive (albeit the short range 4-5 LY per hop variety, apart from the dangers of the warp they face in doing so.) but this generally seems to favor the Eldar unless for some reason there are absolutely no webway gates into or near Tau space or we totally deprive them of warp drive (and if that is done, someone could just make a similar case for depriving the Tau, so that literally goes nowhere.) So the Tau have very little way of directly striking at the Eldar, whilst the same cannot be said of the Eldar. Even if no webway gates lead directly onto any Tau worlds, they can deploy ships through them nearby and then deploy from orbit (they have considerable orbitla superiority, and as the Path of the Eldar novels demonstrate, they can create temporary webway portals over short distances - such as the surfaces of planets from ships.)
This means the Tau basically have to find some way to invade and access the Craftworlds via webway gates. This is not beyond possibility, since humans have done so on more than one occasion (although I'd say far from simple) and even then it would be a double edged sword. On one hand, it gives them a means of (At least on foot) striking directly at the Eldar even over vast distances. On the other hand, they have to map out and navigate the webway, and this also creates predictable avenues of attack from which they can be struck at (and if it wasn't for the contrived nature of the debate you can bet there would be other threats they would contest with in the webway, including probably the webway itself. If the webway frowns on Necrons inside it, it may frown on the Tau themselves.)
Troop quality can be argued over or disputed, but I would point out the Eldar quite probably have certain advantages when it comes to vehicles. For one thing, most eldar Grav craft are effectively part aircraft - Tau grav vehicles can pull some 70-100 kph (or up to 150 kph per White Dwarf I've heard.. the ones I mention are strictly IA sources of various times) but the Eldar pull at least that fast if not faster (800-850 kph for Falcons and Wave Serpents, at least at higher altitudes) which gives them much more battlefield mobility and flexibility on top of being able to deploy from Orbit. even if everything else (firepower, etc.) held equal and they had an edge in numbers and durability (which they might have), the Eldar can concentrate and deploy much more rapidly (creating a situation for the Tau not unlike what the Imperium at times faces against the Tau.) Air craft are an issue there of course, but its likely the Eldar at least have parity if not advantage in aeronautica/aerospace craft (apart from maybe the Manta, but the Eldar have plenty of superheavy/Titan grade vehicles of their own, and they also have starfighters)
And whilst Psychic stuff or superweapon stuff seem rather irrelevant (if it came down to that superweapons matter less than orbital and naval superiority.. which if the Eldar have that, they can pretty much do whatever the feth they want and wipe out worlds at their leisure with conventional weapons, nevermind wanky stuff.) But psychic stuff can be beneficial in minor ways - command and control and intel functions mainly, as well as some probability manipulation. It doesn't have to be a HUGE impact to be decisive (and it doesn't have to be game winning in and of itself.. it probably isn't) but it will play a huge role in things since Seers and Farseers can use the warp to help predict and plan attacks (which is pretty much part of their MO) against the Tau far better than the Tau are likely to predict.
It isn't any one thing, and this isn't to say the Tau are going to go down without inflicting any losses (or neccesarily even significant losses), but even if things like population favor the Tau, the operational and strategic realities of the situation tend to favor the Eldar barring any of the 'ifs' I specified above. The Tau can try and invade and conquer/destroy Craftworlds (and may even successed, as again the Imperium can sometimes pull this off) but its not going to be easy. Remember Iyanden was all but wiped out by a major branch of hive fleet Kraken, but still managed to win with last minute aid, whereas the Tau could barely stand up to Gorgon without help.
Incidentally I did run across this looking through the Iyanden stuff, which I think sort of reinforces the above assessment:
The maiden world of Lilarsus is destroyed by expansionist Tau forces. This provokes a bloody response from Iyanden, and the Ke'lshan sept colony of Ka'mais is reduced to rubble during the reprisals. The Tau counter-attack, though slow to mobilise, is determined and well-coordinated, and the aliens recover the wreckage of several Wraithguard as the Eldar withdraw. Earth caste scientists are fascinated by the prizes, thinking them to be more sophisticated versions of their own battlesuits. However, the secrets of psycho-conductive wraithbone prove to lie far beyond the Tau's clumsy grasp, and the wreckage is soon recovered when the Eldar return in force.
That might help with context, although this was I believe pre-Kraken Iyanden.
Good and detailed post! I like how you provide sources!
Co'tor Shas wrote: Actually, tau efficiency would mean more dense, not less. At this point on earth, overpopulation does not exist. Uneven rescorse spread is the problem. We could support, I think the estimate was, 15 times our current population.
That's opinion, not fact. Obviously it exists within animal populations, so why not with humans? That debate is outside the scope of this discussion though, not to mention it doesn't factor in climate change, environmental degradation, different levels of development, and so on.
So I average tau population at 10 billion per world (a mere 3 billion more than out current population). At 200 worlds, give or take, that's about 2 trillion. That seems like a lot, but on a galactic scale it's infinitesimal. The human population is probably in the sectillions.
What about the Tau reaction to Agrellan's population? That's from a fluff source after all.
raiden wrote: Assume no other faction interference, just tau and what are left of eldar craftworlds (no dark eldar) which faction would come out on top?
OP, I would like some clarification on this.
The OP already clarified when you brought up the Harlequins sabotaging the Webway to help the Tau. It's clear enough, Tau vs all Craftworlds, with no outside interference.
If you factor in Daemons and Dark Eldar, then you need to factor in all other factions, including the IoM, which makes this discussion pointless.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Actually, tau efficiency would mean more dense, not less. At this point on earth, overpopulation does not exist. Uneven rescorse spread is the problem. We could support, I think the estimate was, 15 times our current population.
That's opinion, not fact. Obviously it exists within animal populations, so why not with humans? That debate is outside the scope of this discussion though, not to mention it doesn't factor in climate change, environmental degradation, different levels of development, and so on.
So I average tau population at 10 billion per world (a mere 3 billion more than out current population). At 200 worlds, give or take, that's about 2 trillion. That seems like a lot, but on a galactic scale it's infinitesimal. The human population is probably in the sectillions.
What about the Tau reaction to Agrellan's population? That's from a fluff source after all.
1. It's not opinion, I didn't just make it up on the spot. It's based on researcher's findings. Although it may be a little outdated (it was from something I read years ago).The earth can support an incredibly large amount of human life. It just needs to be managed properly. Of course it would damage the ecosystem beyond repair (as it would mean reshaping the world to meet your demands, but, somehow, I think the tau would make that sacrifse for the greater good. And it proebely would not be as bad as you think. Tau can build cites on th bottoms of oceans, why not farms and factories? And I don't think climate change would be such a concern of the tau, as all of their stuff seems to run off of green energy (fission, fusion, solar) or things we don't actually know, but probably don't produce greenhouse emissions (plasma darkmatter).
2. It's a hive world, they have gigantic populations crammed into small spaces. Crammed tighter than the dirtiest of ghettos. Cramped, wet, with a permanent gloom. Never seeing real sun, never feeling wind, never breather clean air. Anybody who has lived at a relatively decent standard would be disgusted by it. And I'm unsure of where the 13.7 billion comes from (aren't they supposed to be likes 100s of billions each)?
Now, certainly, tau could tend to be more in the 7.5billion range, we don't really know, we can only extrapolate.
And even if the tau ad more population than the eldar, they're still boned. It would just take a bit longer.
Co'tor Shas wrote: 1. It's not opinion, I didn't just make it up on the spot. It's based on researcher's findings. Although it may be a little outdated (it was from something I read years ago).
And there are many studies that claim otherwise. Besides, most of these "overpopulation is a myth" studies come from neoclassical economists, who believe we can carry on as before, regardless of population growth, and who tend to ignore environmental/other factors that disrupt their perfect supply/demand chain. But again, a real life discussion for another forum.
The earth can support an incredibly large amount of human life. It just needs to be managed properly. Of course it would damage the ecosystem beyond repair (as it would mean reshaping the world to meet your demands, but, somehow, I think the tau would make that sacrifse for the greater good. And it proebely would not be as bad as you think. Tau can build cites on th bottoms of oceans, why not farms and factories? And I don't think climate change would be such a concern of the tau, as all of their stuff seems to run off of green energy (fission, fusion, solar) or things we don't actually know, but probably don't produce greenhouse emissions (plasma darkmatter).
And I don't think climate change would be such a concern of the tau, as all of their stuff seems to run off of green energy (fission, fusion, solar) or things we don't actually know, but probably don't produce greenhouse emissions (plasma darkmatter).
That's true, the Tau can probably get more out of their planets than they're given credit for. Agrellan's population does seem pathethically low for a Hive world, plus it's from one of those supplements that have hundreds of pages of extremely detailed fluff that just scream "future retcon" (that includes the Iyanden supplement).
The climate change + other factors thing was about overpopulation in our world, not the 40k universe.
Meh, my knowledge on the subject is pretty passing, so I could definitely be wrong. It is a very interesting topic to think about, especially when you bring stuff like orbitals, and moon-bases into the matter.
Vaktathi wrote: Sure, they see each other as Eldar, but that doesn't mean they don't make distinctions. The Craftworld Eldar will very much go out of their way to seal off sections of the webway from the Dark Eldar and other such things, while the Dark Eldar have no compunctions about killing Craftworld Eldar, and in fact, Incubi must slay Craftworld Eldar as part of their training. They are not pals or allies or anything of the sort, the Dark Eldar are the Old Eldar, the Eldar that caused the fall, the people that the Craftworld Eldar intentionally cut themselves off from. They may not typically actively war against one-another, but randomly encountering each other within the webway would not simply be like passing a normal person on the street, violence would be a very real possibility.
They may sometimes fight a common foe, but the two groups don't see each other as being identical to themselves. Even when the Dark Eldar came to the aid of Iyanden, it was not something the Craftworlders expected, hope for, or asked for, rather, a single Cabal had joined the fray because they found Iyanden's plight of having to stoop so low as having to mass-conscript their dead for the fight as being "entertaining".
There's even a physiological difference, the Dark Eldar require the pain and suffering of others as a form of sustenance, the Craftworld Eldar don't get anything from that.
That is not true. The little fluff that has them interacting, has them interacting quite normally. There is plenty of trade of goods and persons between the Craftworlds and Commorragh. It is not uncommon for craftworlders to travel to Commorragh or even join one of the Kabals. At the same time, Dark Eldar can travel to and join a craftworld. The only difference is in lifestyle. A Dark Eldar who decides to follow one of the Paths, gets a soulstone and trains his psychic abilities is indistinguisable from a Craftworld Eldar, just as a Craftworld Eldar who decides to let his desires and emotions run free is indistinguisable from a Dark Eldar. Then there is also the Eldar Corsairs, who are basically Dark Eldar who do not live in the Webway, or Craftworld Eldar who reject the Paths. Eldar is a race, dark or craftworld are lifestyles. Just like one human can join a criminal gang, and the other an ascetic religious group but still encounter each other on the street.
Sealing off the Webway to the Dark Eldar is also impossible, because the Dark Eldar live inside of the Webway, Commorragh is a central hub, and sealing it off would also mean the Craftworlds themselves would lose access.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Actually, tau efficiency would mean more dense, not less. At this point on earth, overpopulation does not exist. Uneven rescorse spread is the problem. We could support, I think the estimate was, 15 times our current population. So I average tau population at 10 billion per world (a mere 3 billion more than out current population). At 200 worlds, give or take, that's about 2 trillion. That seems like a lot, but on a galactic scale it's infinitesimal. The human population is probably in the sectillions.
Unfortunately the fluff would disagree with this, apart from what I already posted:
Savage Scars wrote:The city was small by human standards. In the Imperium it was often convenient to pack the multitudes in as tightly as possible, as near to their workplaces as could be achieved, in order to control the means of production with brutal but vital efficiency. The ultimate expression of this harsh reality was the hive cities of such worlds as Armageddon, Ichar IV and Gehenna Prime, each of which could equal the industrial output of any other planet in the Imperium short of a forge world of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Instead of packing their population into a relatively small number of massive cities, the tau evidently preferred to establish thousands of smaller settlements across an entire planet, and Gel’bryn was the largest of those on Dal’yth Prime. Lucian suspected that each city was relatively self-sufficient too, if the surrounding farmland was anything to go by. The use of advanced technology, forbidden or simply lost in the Imperium, for such simple tasks as farming was beyond anything he had seen in his decades of contact with all manner of xenos species. It suggested a highly ordered society in which individuals were free of the drudgery that was the reality of everyday life in the human Imperium.
Kill Team wrote:"I come from a city that stretches three kilometres into the skies of Olympas," I tell the tau, trying to make it sound as impressive as I can. There's no point letting them think they're the only ones who can build a fancy city. "The lower levels are delved a similar distance into the rock. A billion humans live in that one city, and there are thirteen such cities on my world."
"That cannot be," argues Shas'elan. "That is more humans on one world than there are tau in this sept!"
"We call them hive worlds, from the busy nests of insects," explains Quidlon. "There are many hive worlds in the Imperium, and other kinds of worlds too."
"Many worlds with this many humans?" Shas'elan looks shocked and glares accusingly at Coldwind, muttering something in Tau.
This was Gav Thorpe's work, and although I think he doesn't particularly care for the Tau, it does reinforce what was in Damocles.
Deathwatch Core Rules wrote:Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instil an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the sometimes reluctant gue’la minds. Populations are regularly sterilised to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue’la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.
And just before we get into the 'HA HA TAU ARE EVIL' gimmick quotes like this invariably provoke, let's note that the Tau, if we take the evidence in totality, have very good reasons from their point of view for doing this. Let us revisit Damocles again:
Damocles wrote:Bu had also told me that the earth caste was amazed – in a very bad way – at the hive cities. Some ambitious plans were mooted to convert them, but as Bu said, it’d take a long time to make them fit for the Greater Good, and in any case the population of the world was going to be greatly reduced as the earth caste calculated Agrellan was well over its optimum population loading.
The Tau are all about control, maximization of efficiency and effectiveness of everything (Geared towards the Greater Good), minimizing waste and loss, and generally managing every aspect of their society towards their goals (Again the Greater Good.) These manifest in (to a human, and often western) point of view as 'evil', but it neglects the fact that there are societies (historically and otherwise) that trade freedom and individuality for stability, security, and sustainability. The tau are going to be all about sustainability which is in direct contrast to the Imperium. For the most part, they don't deplete worlds callously of their resources (at least not without good reason), they don't breed uncontrollably to the point the world can no longer support itself and needs to be supported externally, they do not expand and consume recklessly - those are human traits. The Tau are more logical and methodical than that, and they have very much of an eye towards the long term.
Now, as it does turn out there are Population limits on a world if you want it to remain self sufficient and sustainable, and they are far below what a Hive World can achieve. Note the key words 'self sufficient and sustainable.' You can use technology to circumvent this in various ways (efficient resource usage, to a point) but this only puts off the inevitable, not negating it - eventually you reach a point where various factors (not just food, or living space, or even oxygen, but the human impact on the environment, thermodynamics issues from that many people living in proximity, nevermind the pollution and thermal output of a high technology society) mean you literally cannot sustain yourself without outside support or anything like that.
The tau could probably achieve that (they can make colonies in space after all), but this would not be sustainable. They would be fething up the worlds the same way humans do, and the Tau quite bluntly do not do that. The sterilization thing is part of that as well, since genetics and gak can be unpredictable and often the genetic lottery can be harmful to people - breeding, like other things, needs to be controlled in order to not only optimize it, but to limit the negative impact on others and society as a whole. That sounds horrible in some ways, but it's not in others (because to be honest, I'm not sure OUR society treats those people as well as we should.) It is cold, and pragmatic, but hardly evil.
Another point to consider is one of scale. Not all those worlds are going to be densely populated, many are going to be colonies and other such, so they are likely to run more into the millions at best, rather than billions. Even if they HAD some that could run up to like, 7-10 billion, most aren't, so it will still balance out, unless we're to believe that every world (even newly conquered ones) suddnely become hyper-industrilalized and densely populated major worlds overnight (rather unlikely - if all worlds were like that, why would the Tau care about places like Taros, which are, by Imperial standards trivial backwaters? Taros was a BIG DEAL for the Tau Empire, remember.)
That said, as I said, the Tau do have some worlds with at least 'several billion' population, and I found the source:
Planetstrike wrote:During the War of Dakka, Warlord Grog takes battle to the Tau-held world of Atari Vo in the most direct manner he can devise - by propelling a titanic dagger-shaped metoer he uses as his base through the atmosphere and plunging it burning tip straight into the Tau capital city. Several billion of ATari Vo's Tau populace die before Grog and his Dakka Elite step out of the meteor's shieldcore chambers..
This isn't even a sept world insofar as I am aware (although its hardly a minor world likely, they seem to have settled it for some time) so it seems to fit in between those two.
Co'tor Shas wrote: 2. It's a hive world, they have gigantic populations crammed into small spaces. Crammed tighter than the dirtiest of ghettos. Cramped, wet, with a permanent gloom. Never seeing real sun, never feeling wind, never breather clean air. Anybody who has lived at a relatively decent standard would be disgusted by it. And I'm unsure of where the 13.7 billion comes from (aren't they supposed to be likes 100s of billions each)?
Hive Worlds aren't a homogenous thing, any more than most things in the Imperium are. There is no formal way they are constructed - rather, they represent the human tendency towards greed and short-sighted thinking - they breed and expand and consume to the point the world becomes untenable and then have to scrabble to survive somehow - bartering their huge populations and industrial might in the hope they can get the things they need (resources and food). They are a testament to human fallibility, rather than a deliberate design choice.
That also means you can have different grades and qualities of hive world. Not every place is a Necromunda or Armageddon (where the majority, if not totality of the world is an irradiated, polluted craphole that only mutants and the hardiest can survive exposure to for any length of time). Some may only be very badly polluted but you can still technically live outside (Thracian Primaris from the Eisenhorn novels, which is 'only' a population of 22 billion), and some are smaller and may not even be totally crapholes (a bit bigger and more polluted than Earth, starting towards the 'Thracian Primaris' stage of things. I believe they call them Proto-Hives.) But they don't just cram people into Hives just for no good reason - people live in hives like that because the outside environment is not only incapable of sustaining them, but actively inimical to human or any other live. Just as humans can't live in a void, you can't really 'live' on a hive world outside the hives.
Now, certainly, tau could tend to be more in the 7.5billion range, we don't really know, we can only extrapolate.
Sure, I admitted as much. but what we do know tends to argue the opposite of what you are suggesting. If you want to believe that that's fine, because 40K allows for people to 'forge their own narrative' so to speak, but the evidence still speaks for itself.
Now all that said you did mention the spaceborne population, and I admit my numbers don't include that (orbitals, asteroid colonies, mining settlements, stuff like that.) which could add a non-trivial portion to it, but it is rather unlikely that the majority of the Tau come from the void (I'm pretty sure in fact that is largely the province of the air caste, since they are the aerospace forces for the Tau) and would only have some Earth Caste (for engineering and maintenance task) and Fire Caste (for security and defense) purposes.
From the savage scars quote that doesn't really tell us anything, just that tau prefer to be more spread out. I'm not sure why you posted that one?
Honestly, if tau septs are all less than 13 billion a piece, than tau are, individually, far more formidable than we think. I mean, there's only 20 of them (give or take, depending on who's doing the writing), so that would put their combined population at a upper cap of ~250 billion, which is stupidly small. Or we could just say that GW writers have no sense of scale. Because that has pretty much always been the case. Like how entire planets are fought over by combined armies, totally less than the causalities in WWII.
Agrellan is a hive world, so it probably is over it's population cap. Because it's a hive world. My guess was well below hive world standards. I mean, you wouldn't say that we are a hive world, but that's not too much more.
And, yes, population limits are a thing, but I already discussed that. 10 billion is not planet-destroying levels of population if managed correctly, something the tau can most defiantly do.Tau have the ability to build both underwater and floating cites, as well as deep underground laboratories, industrial plants, farms, ect They can genetically engineer plants and animals to be extremely space efficient, or breed some sort of algae to convert CO2 to O2. Their power sources seem to have no emissions (besides some sort of necualr waste most probely, but they can just fire that into the sun ), and tau of all races would be skilled in alternative, "free", energies (tidal, geothermal, ect). And as far as breeding is concern, sterilization in itself appears to not be a thing, but we do know that tau do not form couples like humans, nor even race the children themselves. They are selected for breeding, orders to do their thing, and the baby is then taken care of by professionals, raised in the life-to-death training system the defines the tau.
As far as caring about Taros, just because it doesn't have population doesn't mean that it doesn't also have recorces and area to develop. And the tau aren't going to not claim planets when they can, expansion is huge for them. Their end goal is to rule the galaxy, every backwater planet, and lifeless asteroid belt.
About the spacebourne, certainly it's not the majority, but (and your mentioning it made me remember), they existence of orbital cities and the new fortress stations (with the population of the largest ones comparable to "a continent sized city") will definitely contribute.
You do bring up a good point though, how developed are each world? Certainly the ones in the fully fledged septs themselves are going to be pretty devolved, but I think the quote was "hundreds of worlds". That quite a bit more than what's contained in the septs. If we go by 3-4 full worlds per sept, (tau are masters of terraforming, as well as living on worlds unlivable by human standards) that gets us only about fully developed worlds 60-40 worlds. That means far less. If we go by my original estimate (10bil for developed world) and maybe and aveage of 3/8ths that much for "undeveloped" worlds. At the low end of "hundreds" (200) that would get us somewhere between 1 and 1.125 trillion in population. so quite a bit lower than my original guess (by half in fact). Still infinitesable on a galactic scale. And the CE still defintly have the capacity to have more.
The Eldar have numerous advantages:
- Psyker mastery
- Warp technology
- Phantom-class Titans (Tau have no equivalent)
- more living soldiers
- Ghost Warriors to augment forces
The Tau are simply outclassed.
OTOH, give it another 10,000 years, and the Tau might advance to surpass the Eldar, simply due to the speed with which they are growing.
I personally believe that a single craftworld bent on the destruction of the Tau could diplomancer their way into a Tau alliance in bad faith and turn all Tau allies against their masters. "Greater good, so long aas your leaders wear these nice helmets" indeed.
And the Tau's rapid advancement technologically doesn't make them special. The Eldar, Necron and human empires went through that phase too. The only thing they have going for them is diplomacy and I think the Eldar are better at it. See the "Cultural exchange" between Tau and DE.
That and lacking a significant warp presence, which is as much a liability as an advantage.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Actually, tau efficiency would mean more dense, not less. At this point on earth, overpopulation does not exist. Uneven rescorse spread is the problem. We could support, I think the estimate was, 15 times our current population. So I average tau population at 10 billion per world (a mere 3 billion more than out current population). At 200 worlds, give or take, that's about 2 trillion. That seems like a lot, but on a galactic scale it's infinitesimal. The human population is probably in the sectillions.
Unfortunately the fluff would disagree with this, apart from what I already posted:
Savage Scars wrote:The city was small by human standards. In the Imperium it was often convenient to pack the multitudes in as tightly as possible, as near to their workplaces as could be achieved, in order to control the means of production with brutal but vital efficiency. The ultimate expression of this harsh reality was the hive cities of such worlds as Armageddon, Ichar IV and Gehenna Prime, each of which could equal the industrial output of any other planet in the Imperium short of a forge world of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Instead of packing their population into a relatively small number of massive cities, the tau evidently preferred to establish thousands of smaller settlements across an entire planet, and Gel’bryn was the largest of those on Dal’yth Prime. Lucian suspected that each city was relatively self-sufficient too, if the surrounding farmland was anything to go by. The use of advanced technology, forbidden or simply lost in the Imperium, for such simple tasks as farming was beyond anything he had seen in his decades of contact with all manner of xenos species. It suggested a highly ordered society in which individuals were free of the drudgery that was the reality of everyday life in the human Imperium.
Kill Team wrote:"I come from a city that stretches three kilometres into the skies of Olympas," I tell the tau, trying to make it sound as impressive as I can. There's no point letting them think they're the only ones who can build a fancy city. "The lower levels are delved a similar distance into the rock. A billion humans live in that one city, and there are thirteen such cities on my world."
"That cannot be," argues Shas'elan. "That is more humans on one world than there are tau in this sept!"
"We call them hive worlds, from the busy nests of insects," explains Quidlon. "There are many hive worlds in the Imperium, and other kinds of worlds too."
"Many worlds with this many humans?" Shas'elan looks shocked and glares accusingly at Coldwind, muttering something in Tau.
This was Gav Thorpe's work, and although I think he doesn't particularly care for the Tau, it does reinforce what was in Damocles.
Deathwatch Core Rules wrote:Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instil an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the sometimes reluctant gue’la minds. Populations are regularly sterilised to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue’la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.
And just before we get into the 'HA HA TAU ARE EVIL' gimmick quotes like this invariably provoke, let's note that the Tau, if we take the evidence in totality, have very good reasons from their point of view for doing this. Let us revisit Damocles again:
Damocles wrote:Bu had also told me that the earth caste was amazed – in a very bad way – at the hive cities. Some ambitious plans were mooted to convert them, but as Bu said, it’d take a long time to make them fit for the Greater Good, and in any case the population of the world was going to be greatly reduced as the earth caste calculated Agrellan was well over its optimum population loading.
The Tau are all about control, maximization of efficiency and effectiveness of everything (Geared towards the Greater Good), minimizing waste and loss, and generally managing every aspect of their society towards their goals (Again the Greater Good.) These manifest in (to a human, and often western) point of view as 'evil', but it neglects the fact that there are societies (historically and otherwise) that trade freedom and individuality for stability, security, and sustainability. The tau are going to be all about sustainability which is in direct contrast to the Imperium. For the most part, they don't deplete worlds callously of their resources (at least not without good reason), they don't breed uncontrollably to the point the world can no longer support itself and needs to be supported externally, they do not expand and consume recklessly - those are human traits. The Tau are more logical and methodical than that, and they have very much of an eye towards the long term.
Now, as it does turn out there are Population limits on a world if you want it to remain self sufficient and sustainable, and they are far below what a Hive World can achieve. Note the key words 'self sufficient and sustainable.' You can use technology to circumvent this in various ways (efficient resource usage, to a point) but this only puts off the inevitable, not negating it - eventually you reach a point where various factors (not just food, or living space, or even oxygen, but the human impact on the environment, thermodynamics issues from that many people living in proximity, nevermind the pollution and thermal output of a high technology society) mean you literally cannot sustain yourself without outside support or anything like that.
The tau could probably achieve that (they can make colonies in space after all), but this would not be sustainable. They would be fething up the worlds the same way humans do, and the Tau quite bluntly do not do that. The sterilization thing is part of that as well, since genetics and gak can be unpredictable and often the genetic lottery can be harmful to people - breeding, like other things, needs to be controlled in order to not only optimize it, but to limit the negative impact on others and society as a whole. That sounds horrible in some ways, but it's not in others (because to be honest, I'm not sure OUR society treats those people as well as we should.) It is cold, and pragmatic, but hardly evil.
Another point to consider is one of scale. Not all those worlds are going to be densely populated, many are going to be colonies and other such, so they are likely to run more into the millions at best, rather than billions. Even if they HAD some that could run up to like, 7-10 billion, most aren't, so it will still balance out, unless we're to believe that every world (even newly conquered ones) suddnely become hyper-industrilalized and densely populated major worlds overnight (rather unlikely - if all worlds were like that, why would the Tau care about places like Taros, which are, by Imperial standards trivial backwaters? Taros was a BIG DEAL for the Tau Empire, remember.)
That said, as I said, the Tau do have some worlds with at least 'several billion' population, and I found the source:
Planetstrike wrote:During the War of Dakka, Warlord Grog takes battle to the Tau-held world of Atari Vo in the most direct manner he can devise - by propelling a titanic dagger-shaped metoer he uses as his base through the atmosphere and plunging it burning tip straight into the Tau capital city. Several billion of ATari Vo's Tau populace die before Grog and his Dakka Elite step out of the meteor's shieldcore chambers..
This isn't even a sept world insofar as I am aware (although its hardly a minor world likely, they seem to have settled it for some time) so it seems to fit in between those two.
Co'tor Shas wrote: 2. It's a hive world, they have gigantic populations crammed into small spaces. Crammed tighter than the dirtiest of ghettos. Cramped, wet, with a permanent gloom. Never seeing real sun, never feeling wind, never breather clean air. Anybody who has lived at a relatively decent standard would be disgusted by it. And I'm unsure of where the 13.7 billion comes from (aren't they supposed to be likes 100s of billions each)?
Hive Worlds aren't a homogenous thing, any more than most things in the Imperium are. There is no formal way they are constructed - rather, they represent the human tendency towards greed and short-sighted thinking - they breed and expand and consume to the point the world becomes untenable and then have to scrabble to survive somehow - bartering their huge populations and industrial might in the hope they can get the things they need (resources and food). They are a testament to human fallibility, rather than a deliberate design choice.
That also means you can have different grades and qualities of hive world. Not every place is a Necromunda or Armageddon (where the majority, if not totality of the world is an irradiated, polluted craphole that only mutants and the hardiest can survive exposure to for any length of time). Some may only be very badly polluted but you can still technically live outside (Thracian Primaris from the Eisenhorn novels, which is 'only' a population of 22 billion), and some are smaller and may not even be totally crapholes (a bit bigger and more polluted than Earth, starting towards the 'Thracian Primaris' stage of things. I believe they call them Proto-Hives.) But they don't just cram people into Hives just for no good reason - people live in hives like that because the outside environment is not only incapable of sustaining them, but actively inimical to human or any other live. Just as humans can't live in a void, you can't really 'live' on a hive world outside the hives.
Now, certainly, tau could tend to be more in the 7.5billion range, we don't really know, we can only extrapolate.
Sure, I admitted as much. but what we do know tends to argue the opposite of what you are suggesting. If you want to believe that that's fine, because 40K allows for people to 'forge their own narrative' so to speak, but the evidence still speaks for itself.
Now all that said you did mention the spaceborne population, and I admit my numbers don't include that (orbitals, asteroid colonies, mining settlements, stuff like that.) which could add a non-trivial portion to it, but it is rather unlikely that the majority of the Tau come from the void (I'm pretty sure in fact that is largely the province of the air caste, since they are the aerospace forces for the Tau) and would only have some Earth Caste (for engineering and maintenance task) and Fire Caste (for security and defense) purposes.
Ah, the work of a true scholar! What a wonderful sight!
Co'tor Shas wrote: Honestly, if tau septs are all less than 13 billion a piece, than tau are, individually, far more formidable than we think. I mean, there's only 20 of them (give or take, depending on who's doing the writing), so that would put their combined population at a upper cap of ~250 billion, which is stupidly small. Or we could just say that GW writers have no sense of scale. Because that has pretty much always been the case. Like how entire planets are fought over by combined armies, totally less than the causalities in WWII.
Eh, why does that make them more formidable than we think? I don't follow. The Imperial force during the Damocles crusade was rather tiny on a galactic scale, and the other threats the Tau have faced so far have been on a fairly small scale as well. But yea, GW have never had a good grasp of scale. That's why Space Marine chapters only have 1000 marines.
Because, that's pretty tiny. Especially for an empire consisting of "hundreds of worlds". Them keeping that together, with only 2 billions or so per world, would be very impressive. Point 25b is stupidly small. And god damn space marine numbers always annoy me. Why, why are they so small, it just isn't sustainable.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Because, that's pretty tiny. Especially for an empire consisting of "hundreds of worlds". Them keeping that together, with only 2 billions or so per world, would be very impressive. Point 25b is stupidly small. And god damn space marine numbers always annoy me. Why, why are they so small, it just isn't sustainable.
Hm, I'm not sure having billions more per world would make the Empire easier to run. If anything, sufficient but small and easy to manage numbers would make it easier to keep control, no? The Tau Empire works well because it's so compact.
Perhaps, but spreading too thin could be far worse. As well as not being able to take advantage of those resources, you can't effectively respond to aggression. With a denser population, it means that the local army can hold out longer until reinforcements arrive.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Perhaps, but spreading too thin could be far worse. As well as not being able to take advantage of those resources, you can't effectively respond to aggression. With a denser population, it means that the local army can hold out longer until reinforcements arrive.
But that's exactly what the Tau fluff is about, with the "spheres of expansion" and waiting between the phases. Also, the Farsight Enclaves going rogue because they ventured out to far and their Ethereals couldn't be replaced. And also the setbacks with first contact with the Imperium and Orks. It's all part of the Tau "up and coming, but not quite ready" and "don't provoke the beast (Imperium)" themes.
Well, yes, but I don't think it's that extreme. They wait until they are fully developed before starting the next sphere. They aren't going to spread themselves quite that thin, at that point, claiming more land is more of a liability than it's worth.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well, yes, but I don't think it's that extreme. They wait until they are fully developed before starting the next sphere. They aren't going to spread themselves quite that thin, at that point, claiming more land is more of a liability than it's worth.
Yea but that's why they have the spheres of expansion. The Ethereals decide when it's okay to expand. Apparently now is a good time. And who says 2 billion per world is that extreme? The population is probably concentrated on more important worlds, with some having very low (newly colonized worlds for example) and others having larger populations.
Here's the thing, the population would already be low before the the sphere, they third sphere didn't quadruple the size of the empire or something, so there is very little reason for the spread to be that low.
The issue with spherical expansion is a surface / volume problem.
Consider a line, you can expand indefinitely as your exposed front and rear never increase, while your resource base grows. This is the perfect scenario, where you never need to increase your military.
Then move to a plane, and the recourse base grows twice as fast as the perimeter. Still sustainable, as your resource base grows faster than your defense perimeter.
Now, move to space, and your exposed area grows continues to grow twice as fast as the enclosed volume. However, at stellar scales, the density is not good. Most of that volume is actually non-productive emptiness, while the perimeter continues to increase.
Expand the concept to warp space, and the ability for your opponents to jump a warfleet into any of that empty space means that there is only marginal advantage to growth.
Finally expand further to webway, where there is near-instantaneous access to many of those empty spaces or interior points, and it becomes clear that Tau basically have no defense. The sub-warp speed Tau cannot possibly react fast enough to a warp- (and web-)capable force possessing anti-planetary weaponry to defend planets. And warp weaponry cares nothing for how big or tough the target is.
The only question for the Eldar is whether they risk opening another Chaos Gate in the heart of what used to be the Tau homeworld.
Particularly as the Tau now mingle with ever increasing numbers of warp-aware, Chaos-susceptible races.
If this really is a war of extermination, that might actually be a viable, but extreme solution.
The Silent King uniting all necron dynasties would kick Eldar Craftworlds and Tau Septs AT THE SAME TIME!!! Because Necrons have reanimation protocols.... :-)
Co'tor Shas wrote: From the savage scars quote that doesn't really tell us anything, just that tau prefer to be more spread out. I'm not sure why you posted that one?
It was the specific contrast between the Imperium's expansionist (and somewhat self-destructive) means of uncontrolled expansion vs the Tau's more methodical and structured approach. They don't favor exploitative methods that are inherently destructive to the environment. You won't see Tau making the equivalent of Forge Worlds or Hive Worlds, because that wouldn't be logical, nor sustainable or self sufficient, which is in line with all the other passages I mentioned. You seem to be intent on trying to create the impression that the Tau would not only create hive worlds, but better and would somehow totally ignore all the problems inherent in that.
Honestly, if tau septs are all less than 13 billion a piece, than tau are, individually, far more formidable than we think. I mean, there's only 20 of them (give or take, depending on who's doing the writing), so that would put their combined population at a upper cap of ~250 billion, which is stupidly small. Or we could just say that GW writers have no sense of scale. Because that has pretty much always been the case. Like how entire planets are fought over by combined armies, totally less than the causalities in WWII.
We don't actually know how many worlds for sure they hold for various reasons. 100 worlds could also mean systems (and even if its planets, it doesn't include whether its habitable planets or includes stuff like moons, large asteorids, etc.) It doesn't include recent acquisitions as far as I am aware (third sphere) either. But no, it probably won't lead to numbers competitive with the rest of 40K, but thats the problem inherent with the way the Tau are written vs how they are promoted, and there's no neat way to fix that without either rewriting the whole of 40K to suit the Tau, or changing the tau in some way to break that problem (or just continuing authorial fiats that actually serve no purpose or make them seem as effective as claimed and feed the resentment of others who don't like the tau.)
Agrellan is a hive world, so it probably is over it's population cap. Because it's a hive world. My guess was well below hive world standards. I mean, you wouldn't say that we are a hive world, but that's not too much more.
Not a fully developed hive world, no, but as I said there is no clear boundary for such as noted in Battlezone Cityfight:
Virtually every human community has within it the potential to become a hive city.
...
Hive cities are not constructed with any overall vision, instead they grow as their population grows and can be as diverse as the planets on which they are situated.
As I said, Hive Worlds come in all sorts, degrees, and classifications. Not all are an Armageddon or Necromunda, but those are the most extreme examples. It might be better to look at Hive Cities not as a discrete or static class, but as an evolutionary life cycle as a world moves past its population boundaries and sustainability, and requires ever-more extreme artificial means to support itself and eventually reaches a point where it cannot survive without external aid.. and even then may eventually die off because it either cannot get the support it needs in a timely manner, or implodes because of some other factor. Thus, some place like Agrellan could be viewed as the 'start' of the cycle, whereas Necromunda represent sthe 'end'.
I'll also note that Agrellan is closer to the proto-hive concept of Arcologies mentioned int eh Horus Heresy, whereas Hive Worlds true are arcologies that got out of hand over time.
And, yes, population limits are a thing, but I already discussed that. 10 billion is not planet-destroying levels of population if managed correctly, something the tau can most defiantly do.Tau have the ability to build both underwater and floating cites, as well as deep underground laboratories, industrial plants, farms, ect They can genetically engineer plants and animals to be extremely space efficient, or breed some sort of algae to convert CO2 to O2. Their power sources seem to have no emissions (besides some sort of necualr waste most probely, but they can just fire that into the sun ), and tau of all races would be skilled in alternative, "free", energies (tidal, geothermal, ect). And as far as breeding is concern, sterilization in itself appears to not be a thing, but we do know that tau do not form couples like humans, nor even race the children themselves. They are selected for breeding, orders to do their thing, and the baby is then taken care of by professionals, raised in the life-to-death training system the defines the tau.
Again I do not disagree that it is POSSIBLE for them to do it, it is just not something they clearly would do by choice, or would fit in with their plans. Rampant and uncontrolled genetic reproduction is a human thing (and has all sorts of drawbacks even apart from overcrowding and sustainability issues), nevermind the way we consume resources indiscriminately and without concern for the environment (including energy.) Even if they have means to stretch those boundaries it still is threatening the sustainability of the environment, as well as its self-sufficiency, because your'e taking away any safety margin the planet might have to survive if those mechanisms aren't in place. The Tau are great believers in redundant and extensive planning, you may recall.. does it sound like they would gamble on an entire planet's existence failing if the technology fails (our own society is not nearly as robust technologically as we believe, after all.) Technology helps, but even in 40K its not a magic wand that makes all problems go away (and it only makes physics go away a little bit if you are an Ork or Chaos Daemon.)
As far as caring about Taros, just because it doesn't have population doesn't mean that it doesn't also have recorces and area to develop. And the tau aren't going to not claim planets when they can, expansion is huge for them. Their end goal is to rule the galaxy, every backwater planet, and lifeless asteroid belt.
True, but the scale of the conflict and the benefits acquired for that event are still telling about the perception of the faction in question. Taros being a significant acquistiion for the Tau when its a drop in the bucket for the Imperium doesn't say much for the Tau empire as a whole, and is in more line with the view I've presented than I think it is for yours. The fact they have an unshakable faith in their manifest destiny, to the point of being naive at times, does not really alter this.
About the spacebourne, certainly it's not the majority, but (and your mentioning it made me remember), they existence of orbital cities and the new fortress stations (with the population of the largest ones comparable to "a continent sized city") will definitely contribute.
You do bring up a good point though, how developed are each world? Certainly the ones in the fully fledged septs themselves are going to be pretty devolved, but I think the quote was "hundreds of worlds". That quite a bit more than what's contained in the septs. If we go by 3-4 full worlds per sept, (tau are masters of terraforming, as well as living on worlds unlivable by human standards) that gets us only about fully developed worlds 60-40 worlds. That means far less. If we go by my original estimate (10bil for developed world) and maybe and aveage of 3/8ths that much for "undeveloped" worlds. At the low end of "hundreds" (200) that would get us somewhere between 1 and 1.125 trillion in population. so quite a bit lower than my original guess (by half in fact). Still infinitesable on a galactic scale. And the CE still defintly have the capacity to have more.
yes, it could, but again its the air caste that dominates those matters more than other factions, so it would impact them. And we dont know how many such cities they have either (and they are hardly the only ones that have stuff like that. The Imperium got those planet sized space stations later on, after all.) You could just as easily argue the Tau managed to take a buttload of worlds during Third sphere and are expanding rapidly, or they have spread out to densely colonize all systems - just because one world is taken doesn't mean that other heavenly bodies in the system can't be inhabited.) But these in absolute terms would be minor fudges. Even if we grant the Tau something like 20 billion per world and assume EVERY known world had that, you're still only getting something like 2 trillion. This isn't even an order of magnitude beyond what I estimated, and its not going to put them in the big leagues compared to other factions. as I said I can be lowballing the Eldar quite a bit as well both in terms of population size AND number of Craftworlds, and the others - orks, Necrons, Tyranids and Imperium - certainly have many many orders of magnitude more population than the tau even on the lowest end estimate. They're quite simply written too small relative to the other settings to fudge properly like that.
Again if the Tau are going to be a major player like the other factions they need more of a rewrite to redefine that scope somehow, at least a little . But this is going ot involve major changes to the setting (not that they haven't shown a willingness to do that with other factions, and haven't even rewritten the Tau a bit with 6th) but people don't always react well to that. A Tau Empire with several thousand worlds under its belt is a more serious player than on ethat maybe has a hundred or so worlds.
Connor MacLeod 665753 8184703 wrote: there are societies (historically and otherwise) that trade freedom and individuality for stability, security, and sustainability.
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin
I would say that is a poor argument for "Tau ain't evil!"
On topic,
Eldar have such a military advantage that they would succeed in an extermination campaign against the Tau. And to make it easier they would first direct some other enemy to them to soften them up and wear down their defenses.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Eldar have such a military advantage that they would succeed in an extermination campaign against the Tau. And to make it easier they would first direct some other enemy to them to soften them up and wear down their defenses.
Didn't the Eldar do that with the Orks, redirecting a Hive Fleet tendril through some Imperials to break up a nascent Ork Waaah? Sucked to be the Imps caught in the middle, but Crisis Averted!
I field tau so call me biased but as far as I can tell everyone is looking at this as the tau being on the offensive which in my opinion is kinda unlikely seeing as they don't have decent warp travel where they can hold their own when defending against ground troops and orbitals which would make waiting and preparing a better tactic
Eastern_Empire wrote: I field tau so call me biased but as far as I can tell everyone is looking at this as the tau being on the offensive which in my opinion is kinda unlikely seeing as they don't have decent warp travel where they can hold their own when defending against ground troops and orbitals which would make waiting and preparing a better tactic
Nope, as far as I can tell, Tau are destroyed both ways. Eldar excel against static targets, as it is where their hit-and-run tactics can make the most effect. Also, one does not simply out-tactic the Eldar.
Yeah, until the Eldar swept the slow-moving Tau fleet from space using their Seers to predict Tau dispositions and tactics. And then exterminated Tau planets from orbit.
All 'versus' arguments aside, the two factions have no real motivation to fight at this time. The Tau almost don't register in the Warp, which is key to the Eldar. Tau fleets move with painful slowness in both interplanetary transit and in-system modes compared to the Eldar. Heck, very few Eldar are even in the Tau region of the Galaxy, but they have the Webway to get them where they need to be in a hurry. The Tau are no more of a threat to the Eldar than they are to the Imperium of Man at this time.
And were they to become a threat Eldar Seers would sense it and the pointy-ears would hatch some nefarious and subtle plan... likely using some other faction as their catspaw. 'Let's you and him fight' is an excellent stratagem and a way of life for the Eldar.
I agree that there is really no motive for either race to engage in a full on war like that but because the tau have no psycic signature and no presence in the warp doesn't it make sense that any engagement with the tau would be difficult if not impossible to predict for the eldar and that the eldar wouldn't be able to see into the tau's future unless observing them through another entity
If the Tau were to deliberately engage the Eldar, the Eldar would see that their future included attacks by Null forces. Same thing if they saw huge death and destruction of Imperials / Orks / whatever by Null forces. The Eldar surely know where the Tau are, so it's not hard for them to put 2+2 together and understand who's doing it. It's not like the Eldar don't have experience with similar forces (Pariah, Culexus, Shadow of the Warp, etc.).
Eastern_Empire wrote: I agree that there is really no motive for either race to engage in a full on war like that but because the tau have no psycic signature and no presence in the warp doesn't it make sense that any engagement with the tau would be difficult if not impossible to predict for the eldar and that the eldar wouldn't be able to see into the tau's future unless observing them through another entity
People keep saying this - unless the fluff has chnaged the tau have a small psychic signature - they are "Blunt" not "Bank". Major difference.
Tau technology and strategy adapts very quickly to new threats. I'm sure the full might of the Eldar would wipe out the Tau but the Eldar would doom themselves in the process.
Think of all the souls Slaanesh would be receiving?
As a Tau player, the Eldar would win. Their craftworlds are massive warships that could probably beat almost every army out there, while Tau are still a growing civilizations, so it's not exactly fair.
You might as well ask who would win, a Deathstar or some Civil Era ironclads.
Eastern_Empire wrote: I agree that there is really no motive for either race to engage in a full on war like that but because the tau have no psycic signature and no presence in the warp doesn't it make sense that any engagement with the tau would be difficult if not impossible to predict for the eldar and that the eldar wouldn't be able to see into the tau's future unless observing them through another entity
Wrong in every way possible.
-Tau are not Blanks, they are described as blunt.
-Eldar can predict blanks, they have tracked down the Culexus Temple down and had a psychic vision that destroying it would be their downfall.
-The motive doesn't matter, this is just a hypothetical.
Medium of Death wrote: Tau technology and strategy adapts very quickly to new threats. I'm sure the full might of the Eldar would wipe out the Tau but the Eldar would doom themselves in the process.
Think of all the souls Slaanesh would be receiving?
Slaanesh wouldn't receive any souls unless the spirit stones are destroyed with the warrior.
) the main weapons on a Craftworld are definitely something to be feared.
), and tau of all races would be skilled in alternative, "free", energies (tidal, geothermal, ect). And as far as breeding is concern, sterilization in itself appears to not be a thing, but we do know that tau do not form couples like humans, nor even race the children themselves. They are selected for breeding, orders to do their thing, and the baby is then taken care of by professionals, raised in the life-to-death training system the defines the tau.
I field tau so call me biased but as far as I can tell everyone is looking at this as the tau being on the offensive which in my opinion is kinda unlikely seeing as they don't have decent warp travel where they can hold their own when defending against ground troops and orbitals which would make waiting and preparing a better tactic
