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Why in the name of Cegorach would the Harlequins turn on the Eldar to save the Tau?

I'm pretty sure Cegorach has plotted much worse in the name of a good joke.

It's still extremely far-fetched. And I seriously doubt there is a single example in fluff of the Harlequins openly fighting Craftworld Eldar to protect another species.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:


So the Tau last resort is to blow up suns in their own space. Okay. And the Eldar, with all their Farseers gathered, would not see anything of the sort coming and would not hop back in the Webway. Also, they would park all their Craftworlds next to these suns for the Tau to blow up.

Brilliant plan.

Anything that keeps the Eldar from committing enough vessels to win a fight ends in a Tau victory.

The Tau can make new warships. I'm not sure the Eldar still can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
The aforementioned example was six Craftworlds working together. This is every Craftworld working together.

Unless you can site a source that indicates it is an event they can repeat, I think we can safely assume that they can't, given that they haven't since. Six craftworlds, by your description, could effortlessly jump around the galaxy nuking tyranids, Necrons, and Chaos incursions before they gain traction.

... and yet, they don't...

Probably because they can't repeat the feat. One-time use of a now-gone Old One weapon. Easy explanation of what happened.

A single bonesinger, working alone, can make the entire airframe of a wave serpent in less than a day. Well under a day actually, less than half a day. So the idea that the Eldar can no longer make starships is a non-starter. They can actually produce vessels FASTER than the Tau can if the amount of tonnage a single bonesinger can produce per hour is any indication, which it likely is.

How do you get around the fact that the Eldar can just read the skeins of fate and avoid your super weapon? They can literally see the future. What are you going to do about that? You do realize that your sun exploder is a net liability, right? The eldar specialize in seeing the future and then manipulating events subtly to bring about a change. That's their entire shtick. So the chance that sun exploder is going to go off, in a way the Tau really, really don't want it to (IE on T'au, with no Eldar nearby except maybe a few squads of pathfinders and striking scorpions) is exponentially higher than the Tau somehow pulling a fast one on the guys that can, you know, see the future.

What source needs to be cited? They somehow, facing no obvious threat, destroyed a 60 light year swath with less than 1/3 of the resources that would be dedicated to this campaign. 250 years ago. 250 years ago is a heartbeat to the Eldar as a whole. It is far more likely that since then, there has not been the confluence or particular need to repeat the event. You're drawing the wrong conclusion from it. It's not, oh, they did that once, so obviously they can never do it again (your..."logic") It's Wow, they did something that we didn't even know was possible, with no warning, for no obvious reason. It is included in the background to show Eldar caprice and lethality, not to be an accounting of their weapon stockpile.

What 'doomsday' weapons of the eldar are one use only? The only doomsday weapons mentioned in the background are the spear of twilight and the blackstone fortresses. Both of which are reusable as many times as you want. I'll need to see your source that indicates eldar doomsday weapons are one use only.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
It sure wouldn't hurt to have the 'quins sabotage the Eldar in the webway or have Tzeentch give the Nicaussar a map of them or an exact timeline of the Eldar invasion.

Why in the name of Cegorach would the Harlequins turn on the Eldar to save the Tau? Are you aware the Harlequins are Eldar too? Sabotage the Eldar in the Webway? Really? You don't think that's extremely far-fetched?

The Harlequins also protect the Black Library, which is... (*gasp*) a Craftworld. And Cegorach is an Eldar deity. There's no valid fluff reason why the Harlequins would support the Tau over the rest of the Craftworlds.

If the Tau are a 'Quinn experiment to create a race that can fight Chaos while starving them, then the Quinns would intervene to protect their pet project. The Craftworlders may die... but the Eldar will survive while That Bitch Slaanesh dies of hunger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silverthorne wrote:


How do you get around the fact that the Eldar can just read the skeins of fate and avoid your super weapon? They can literally see the future. What are you going to do about that? You do realize that your sun exploder is a net liability, right? The eldar specialize in seeing the future and then manipulating events subtly to bring about a change. That's their entire shtick. So the chance that sun exploder is going to go off, in a way the Tau really, really don't want it to (IE on T'au, with no Eldar nearby except maybe a few squads of pathfinders and striking scorpions) is exponentially higher than the Tau somehow pulling a fast one on the guys that can, you know, see the future.

What source needs to be cited? They somehow, facing no obvious threat, destroyed a 60 light year swath with less than 1/3 of the resources that would be dedicated to this campaign. 250 years ago. 250 years ago is a heartbeat to the Eldar as a whole. It is far more likely that since then, there has not been the confluence or particular need to repeat the event. You're drawing the wrong conclusion from it. It's not, oh, they did that once, so obviously they can never do it again (your..."logic") It's Wow, they did something that we didn't even know was possible, with no warning, for no obvious reason. It is included in the background to show Eldar caprice and lethality, not to be an accounting of their weapon stockpile.

What 'doomsday' weapons of the eldar are one use only? The only doomsday weapons mentioned in the background are the spear of twilight and the blackstone fortresses. Both of which are reusable as many times as you want. I'll need to see your source that indicates eldar doomsday weapons are one use only.

Remind me why the Eldar haven't won 40k already?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
It sure wouldn't hurt to have the 'quins sabotage the Eldar in the webway or have Tzeentch give the Nicaussar a map of them or an exact timeline of the Eldar invasion.

Why in the name of Cegorach would the Harlequins turn on the Eldar to save the Tau? Are you aware the Harlequins are Eldar too? Sabotage the Eldar in the Webway? Really? You don't think that's extremely far-fetched?

The Harlequins also protect the Black Library, which is... (*gasp*) a Craftworld. And Cegorach is an Eldar deity. There's no valid fluff reason why the Harlequins would support the Tau over the rest of the Craftworlds.

If the Tau are a 'Quinn experiment to create a race that can fight Chaos while starving them, then the Quinns would intervene to protect their pet project. The Craftworlders may die... but the Eldar will survive while That Bitch Slaanesh dies of hunger.

Per the Harlequin codex Cegorach's plan is to save the Eldar race by tricking Slaneesh in to expending all of her power. So killing all the Craftworld Eldar to save the Tau would be a significant setback to say the least. Honestly, its absurd.

At any rate, this was CWE vs Tau, not CWE vs Tau(and supposed creators or whatever). When you try so desperately to add harlequins to the Tau you are just highlighting what a minor power the Tau are. The number of craftwords discussed in this thread is also the minimum. The count only includes GW/FW named ones. There are many more, even if they are less significant. The Tau as race are like the best minor league players, but they can't compete with a major league player. A fairer fight would be Tau vs Dark Eldar, and then only because the DE don't fight those kinds of wars.

I think some of you might be playing up the Eldar's strengths a little too much. I think that they would win too, but some of this is a little absurd.

While the eldar can predict the future, they can't literally see it, or they would never lose a battle, ever. They can see what the future 'might' bring, and act according to what they think will most likely happen, or to bring about the possible future (of which there are many!) that benefits them the most. They can also *gasp* get it wrong! In 'path of the seer' (memory might be a little rusty), the seer council are ready to dismiss Thirianna's visions due to her short time on the path, and only catch on that she is actually right in the nick of time. I'll accept that it's an advantage that the tau can't reliably counter, but lets not lay it on too thick.

I feel that the main reason the Tau can't compete in this fight is due to their small size. They're one of the few races in the galaxy that might actually be outnumbered by the eldar. Their strengths of adaptability, smart and incredibly close knit squads of soldiers, as well as their advancing technology (seem to be the only race in the galaxy actually doing this) are simply eclipsed by the fact that they can't bring them to bear if they've been quickly overwhelmed. If any faction was in the same sized boat, they'd get squished too.

The whole 'can't fight back' thing is obviously massive too, but it is only a matter of time before the Tau figure out a way around that.

Having said that, at the moment, they plainly cannot win the fight. If the tau follow their theme of progression and adaptability though, I'm sure they could match the Eldar in the future (as if GW will advance the timeline).

I assume the question means now, and not in a thousand years or so, so the answer is Eldar!

..........

FOR NOW!

Eldar - no doubt about it. The assaults on the Tau worlds may be somewhat costly, but the vastly superior Eldar Navy means that this confrontation would be theirs.

 Silverthorne wrote:
What source needs to be cited? They somehow, facing no obvious threat, destroyed a 60 light year swath with less than 1/3 of the resources that would be dedicated to this campaign. 250 years ago. 250 years ago is a heartbeat to the Eldar as a whole. It is far more likely that since then, there has not been the confluence or particular need to repeat the event. You're drawing the wrong conclusion from it. It's not, oh, they did that once, so obviously they can never do it again (your..."logic") It's Wow, they did something that we didn't even know was possible, with no warning, for no obvious reason. It is included in the background to show Eldar caprice and lethality, not to be an accounting of their weapon stockpile.

Yea, that's how I see the event as well. It highlights Eldar caprice and lethality. Good way of putting it!

Trystis wrote:
A fairer fight would be Tau vs Dark Eldar, and then only because the DE don't fight those kinds of wars.

Eh, I actually think a Dark Eldar vs Tau fight would end with the Tau coming out much worse for wear than this fight. The DE actually have pretty huge numbers compared to the Craftworld Eldar. And they have thoroughly outwitted and toyed with the Tau in their encounters so far.

 Tarvitz77 wrote:
Having said that, at the moment, they plainly cannot win the fight. If the tau follow their theme of progression and adaptability though, I'm sure they could match the Eldar in the future (as if GW will advance the timeline).

I assume the question means now, and not in a thousand years or so, so the answer is Eldar!

..........

FOR NOW!

Well, for the scope of this discussion I think it's logical to assume the fight starts as soon as possible. So yea, not in a thousand years, in 50k, or when GW advances the timeline.

And that involves the Eldar coming to the Tau so the ball is in Eldar hands. They can attack when, where, and how they choose. The Tau are entirely on the defensive in this scenario.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Remind me why the Eldar haven't won 40k already?

No need to make a spin-off thread about the same topic because you're bitter. There must be other reasons for you to like the Tau than thinking they're superior and can beat every other 40k faction in a straight up fight.

EmpNortonII wrote:

Remind me why the Eldar haven't won 40k already?

Differing objectives, enemies of equivalent power and lack of cohesion.

Objectives: The Eldars' 'victory' does not involve conquering the galaxy and wiping out the other races. Eldar victory involves destroying Slaanesh, keeping the C'tan sealed, and reinvigorating their population.

Enemies: Slaanesh, their current main enemy, exists outside time and is experiencing the future concurrently. Necrons can time-travel, which is almost as good as reading the skeins. In comparison, the Tau don't even understand the concepts against which the Eldar battle - their enemies are of a much lower power level themselves (The Imperium, the Orks).

Cohesion: In canon 40k, such as it exists, different farseers see different parts of the skein and try to engineer different futures for different parts of the galaxy. Sometimes this has knock-on effects outside the boundaries of their foresight - such as Biel-tan giving Aurelia to the Orks to prevent a Tyranid invasion then resulting in the corruption of almost the entire Blood Raven chapter, meaning that when the Il-kaithe (for example) needs the Blood Ravens to be at full strength to block a Necron awakening, there aren't enough of them left to succeed.

However, in the scenario posited, all the Eldar are working together to achieve the same objectives in the same tiny area of space. Their visions won't conflict because they'll be seeing the same thing... of course, eliminating the Tau would potentially result in a Tyranid roll-over, which is another issue entirely.

This is fight that has no path to victory for the Tau.

On the Tabletop, the Eldar annihilate the Tau.

In the fluff, its even worse. The Eldar outnumber the Tau, they out technology the Tau, they out Void fight the Tau, they out ground fight the Tau, they out shoot the Tau, they out CC the Tau.

The Tau have nothing in the face of the full might of the Eldar.

 PhillyT wrote:
The Tau have nothing in the face of the full might of the Eldar.

Except the faith "For the Greater Good"


I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.

 StarDrop wrote:

I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.

My gaming group once brainstormed the idea of Water caste diplomats doing their thing with a psychic race. We concluded that even the most gifted negotiators can do only so much when the opposition can literally read their minds... So this would lead to nowhere, or even backfire disastrously, depending on the nature of the initial approach (being honest/deceitful).

 StarDrop wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
The Tau have nothing in the face of the full might of the Eldar.

Except the faith "For the Greater Good"


I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.

That is outside the scope of the scenario. Given the parameters provided, this is a point after the Water Caste has failed to negotiate with the Eldar... probably because the Tau have nothing to offer them.

Really, what could the Tau offer the Eldar? The Eldar are far beyond the comprehension of the Tau. They are old and tired, understanding that the newness and zeal of the Tau will likely end in destruction against the waves that lay beyond their tiny area of space.

Or at least, thats what they think will likely happen since even their empire gave in to those pressures.

I tend to think DE will somehow "win 40k" since they are a surprisingly successful species in the lore and having the nutjob sadists winning is grimdark.

That being said,on a fluff perspective i tend to think tau v eldar would lead to both dying out. Eldar cant reproduce very quickly so each loss hits them like a train. The tau suffer from being in a galactic corner already and easily driven out of the galaxy. The tau would win in numbers and growth as well as mechanization (some of you are overestimating how much the eldar can build from wraithbone, if they could build as much as you are saying, they should have already won. Period.). The eldar would do their xenos trickery and try leading orks and tyranids to help them fight the tau, but they would risk and suffer losses in the meanwhile.

Im guessing the conflict would end with tau space being a wasteland of Ork and Tyranid with one, maybe 2 craftworld left, and the powers of chaos taking advantage of that.

 StarDrop wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
The Tau have nothing in the face of the full might of the Eldar.

Except the faith "For the Greater Good"


I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.

I would be interested to know what the Water-caste could possibly offer the Eldar as incentive to betray the Craftworlds. From the descriptions of the Craftworlds given in the novels and the stranded of living an Eldar can expect to have on a Craftworld i just can’t see them accepting anything the Tau could offer them?

Brother-Redemptor wrote:

 StarDrop wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
The Tau have nothing in the face of the full might of the Eldar.

Except the faith "For the Greater Good"


I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.

I would be interested to know what the Water-caste could possibly offer the Eldar as incentive to betray the Craftworlds. From the descriptions of the Craftworlds given in the novels and the stranded of living an Eldar can expect to have on a Craftworld i just can’t see them accepting anything the Tau could offer them?

Indeed. The Eldar basically live in a post-scarcity society. Which was what lead to their hedonism that caused Slannesh's birth and they now practice intense mental control to stop that from happening again, but they still live in a post-scarcity society and thus have no want of anything.

Tankman131 wrote:
I tend to think DE will somehow "win 40k" since they are a surprisingly successful species in the lore and having the nutjob sadists winning is grimdark.

That being said,on a fluff perspective i tend to think tau v eldar would lead to both dying out. Eldar cant reproduce very quickly so each loss hits them like a train. The tau suffer from being in a galactic corner already and easily driven out of the galaxy. The tau would win in numbers and growth as well as mechanization (some of you are overestimating how much the eldar can build from wraithbone, if they could build as much as you are saying, they should have already won. Period.). The eldar would do their xenos trickery and try leading orks and tyranids to help them fight the tau, but they would risk and suffer losses in the meanwhile.

Im guessing the conflict would end with tau space being a wasteland of Ork and Tyranid with one, maybe 2 craftworld left, and the powers of chaos taking advantage of that.

The Eldar outnumber the Tau by a significant margin. The war would also last such a short period of time in the OP scenario that birth rates aren't relevant. It is essentially a battle royale with all forces hurled against each other.

 PhillyT wrote:

Tankman131 wrote:
I tend to think DE will somehow "win 40k" since they are a surprisingly successful species in the lore and having the nutjob sadists winning is grimdark.

That being said,on a fluff perspective i tend to think tau v eldar would lead to both dying out. Eldar cant reproduce very quickly so each loss hits them like a train. The tau suffer from being in a galactic corner already and easily driven out of the galaxy. The tau would win in numbers and growth as well as mechanization (some of you are overestimating how much the eldar can build from wraithbone, if they could build as much as you are saying, they should have already won. Period.). The eldar would do their xenos trickery and try leading orks and tyranids to help them fight the tau, but they would risk and suffer losses in the meanwhile.

Im guessing the conflict would end with tau space being a wasteland of Ork and Tyranid with one, maybe 2 craftworld left, and the powers of chaos taking advantage of that.

The Eldar outnumber the Tau by a significant margin. The war would also last such a short period of time in the OP scenario that birth rates aren't relevant. It is essentially a battle royale with all forces hurled against each other.

Are you sure? If you included DE yes, but I think you might overestimate the number of CE, and underestimate the number of tau. Thy tau are masters of terraforming, so that mean 4-5 habitable planets per system. With populations probably in the 10 billion range or so, even more so on some planets (I think the main sept world of bor'kan (at least I think it was bor'kan) is basicaly one giant planet-covering city. A tau version of a hive world, just sperad out so it's not so inhospitable.

And Eldar are supposed to have a very small population (at least of living eldar).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

Tankman131 wrote:
I tend to think DE will somehow "win 40k" since they are a surprisingly successful species in the lore and having the nutjob sadists winning is grimdark.

That being said,on a fluff perspective i tend to think tau v eldar would lead to both dying out. Eldar cant reproduce very quickly so each loss hits them like a train. The tau suffer from being in a galactic corner already and easily driven out of the galaxy. The tau would win in numbers and growth as well as mechanization (some of you are overestimating how much the eldar can build from wraithbone, if they could build as much as you are saying, they should have already won. Period.). The eldar would do their xenos trickery and try leading orks and tyranids to help them fight the tau, but they would risk and suffer losses in the meanwhile.

Im guessing the conflict would end with tau space being a wasteland of Ork and Tyranid with one, maybe 2 craftworld left, and the powers of chaos taking advantage of that.

The Eldar outnumber the Tau by a significant margin. The war would also last such a short period of time in the OP scenario that birth rates aren't relevant. It is essentially a battle royale with all forces hurled against each other.

Are you sure? If you included DE yes, but I think you might overestimate the number of CE, and underestimate the number of tau. Thy tau are masters of terraforming, so that mean 4-5 habitable planets per system. With populations probably in the 10 billion range or so, even more so on some planets (I think the main sept world of bor'kan (at least I think it was bor'kan) is basicaly one giant planet-covering city. A tau version of a hive world, just sperad out so it's not so inhospitable.

And Eldar are supposed to have a very small population (at least of living eldar).

I myself dont consider DE in the population as they would not fight alongside CW eldar, neither would the exodites. Tau has their fully populated planets along with gue'vesa, vespids, kroot, etc who commonly fight alongside or for the tau whether for communism or for money as the kroots do.

I also thought about it and realized that a protracted engaged such as would be necessary for eldar to take and defeat tau worlds would make slaanesh salivate. Eldar would have to deal with tau in the front and slaanesh sneaking up for tasty soul pop rocks. That in itself would decimate the number of wraithbone constructs.

Tankman131 wrote:
I myself dont consider DE in the population as they would not fight alongside CW eldar, neither would the exodites. Tau has their fully populated planets along with gue'vesa, vespids, kroot, etc who commonly fight alongside or for the tau whether for communism or for money as the kroots do.

I also thought about it and realized that a protracted engaged such as would be necessary for eldar to take and defeat tau worlds would make slaanesh salivate. Eldar would have to deal with tau in the front and slaanesh sneaking up for tasty soul pop rocks. That in itself would decimate the number of wraithbone constructs.

Oh for the love of.... it's just Craftworld Eldar vs Tau, not Craftworld Eldar vs Tau + Slaanesh or CwE vs Tau + Harlequins or CwE vs Tau + Tzeentch, or any other scenario. And no, Dark Eldar are not Craftworld Eldar.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

Tankman131 wrote:
I tend to think DE will somehow "win 40k" since they are a surprisingly successful species in the lore and having the nutjob sadists winning is grimdark.

That being said,on a fluff perspective i tend to think tau v eldar would lead to both dying out. Eldar cant reproduce very quickly so each loss hits them like a train. The tau suffer from being in a galactic corner already and easily driven out of the galaxy. The tau would win in numbers and growth as well as mechanization (some of you are overestimating how much the eldar can build from wraithbone, if they could build as much as you are saying, they should have already won. Period.). The eldar would do their xenos trickery and try leading orks and tyranids to help them fight the tau, but they would risk and suffer losses in the meanwhile.

Im guessing the conflict would end with tau space being a wasteland of Ork and Tyranid with one, maybe 2 craftworld left, and the powers of chaos taking advantage of that.

The Eldar outnumber the Tau by a significant margin. The war would also last such a short period of time in the OP scenario that birth rates aren't relevant. It is essentially a battle royale with all forces hurled against each other.

Are you sure? If you included DE yes, but I think you might overestimate the number of CE, and underestimate the number of tau. Thy tau are masters of terraforming, so that mean 4-5 habitable planets per system. With populations probably in the 10 billion range or so, even more so on some planets (I think the main sept world of bor'kan (at least I think it was bor'kan) is basicaly one giant planet-covering city. A tau version of a hive world, just sperad out so it's not so inhospitable.

And Eldar are supposed to have a very small population (at least of living eldar).

The exact size of a Craftworlds population is always going to be up for debate as no two Craftworlds are exactly the same. But considering their size and the number of known and unknown ones out there compared to the number of inhabited planets within the Tau Empire it’s not out of the question to assume that the total overall size of each race’s population will be very close to each other, enough to make the difference negligible.

I think the Eldar have a pretty good chance of beating the Tau. I think the only way the Tau would really "win" is based entirely on what the victory conditions actually are (which unless I'm missing something, is a little bit vague). If it's complete extermination, then of course the Eldar win due to the fact that they will easily win in space combat, and then they can do everything they want to with regards to destroying planets.

If the victory condition was to obtain all the other sides planets/ craftworlds, then again the Eldar will win easily, but due to the whole Tau policy of "What's the point of fighting to own terrain", there would be a mass exodus from the Tau worlds. I'm not saying it would be massively successful, more they'd still be some Tau kicking around after the Eldar had moved in.

If the victory conditions are more "Who would win if they both sides fight without deploying doomsday weapons and the like," then the Eldar will still have a very good chance of winning, but the Tau do have a tiny chance of winning.

In space, I think we can all agree that the Tau loose pretty badly. They might get lucky and be able to knock out Eldar vessels by hiding them under the sand

On the ground, again, conventional warfare is in the Eldar's favour. The Eldar can beat the Tau in pretty much any style of fighting through sheer numbers, let alone technology or psychic abilities. The only way I can see the Tau winning is by using really unconventional means, but I'm not even sure how they'd do that outside of mass deployment of Seismic Fibrillator Nodes (and I don't imagine the anti-grav eldar stuff will get affected by Earthquakes). The only advantage that the Tau have is that I don't imagine the Eldar would deploy all of their forces. I'd argue that despite external factors being ignored, the Eldar still wouldn't want to throw away their lives recklessly. If we consider the difference in power levels, then there's no point in throwing that much force at the Tau.

I'd also like to point out with regards to technology, that The Tau have shown some ability in actually adapting to their opponents. Even if the Tau couldn't reverse engineer anything that is created with psychic "technology?", what's to stop them from understanding Bright Light, of figuring out how Holo-fields work for example. If they can reverse engineer some of that technology, then their chance of winning might go as far as 1%, and at the very least they would be able to inflict more casualties.

Tarvitz77
In 'path of the seer' (memory might be a little rusty), the seer council are ready to dismiss Thirianna's visions due to her short time on the path, and only catch on that she is actually right in the nick of time.

Path of the Seer does give a good insight into the Eldar's divination abilities, and it really shows that although they can see pretty much every scenario, they can't "process" anywhere near all of them so to speak. It also shows that they are just as likely to change fate as they are to be the cause of it.

Out of interest, for ground warfare, would large scale application of Drones cause problems for the Eldar? The Eldar could only really use their damage based psychic powers, and I imagine that the Tau would develop Anti-Shuriken defences, which might nullify a decent proportion of the Eldar's firepower. If it causes them to have to deploy heavy weaponry to take out Drones, then the Eldar aren't exactly dominating the war.

Just want to point out the Eldar would still win pretty much every scenario I can think of, its more how much damage can the Tau do before they die. I would love to see a fight between Farsight versus Prince Yriel, or Shadowsun versus Illic

 AtoMaki wrote:

 StarDrop wrote:

I did go thru this thread, but did anybody mention the Water-caste negotiation skills? CraftWorlds are in decay. I believe that some of the Eldar forces might be tempted to save themselves (to continue fight against Slaanesh and C'Tans) and make alliances with Tau.

My gaming group once brainstormed the idea of Water caste diplomats doing their thing with a psychic race. We concluded that even the most gifted negotiators can do only so much when the opposition can literally read their minds... So this would lead to nowhere, or even backfire disastrously, depending on the nature of the initial approach (being honest/deceitful).

True, true...

Co'tor Shas wrote:
Are you sure? If you included DE yes, but I think you might overestimate the number of CE, and underestimate the number of tau. Thy tau are masters of terraforming, so that mean 4-5 habitable planets per system. With populations probably in the 10 billion range or so, even more so on some planets (I think the main sept world of bor'kan (at least I think it was bor'kan) is basicaly one giant planet-covering city. A tau version of a hive world, just sperad out so it's not so inhospitable.

And Eldar are supposed to have a very small population (at least of living eldar).

Yes, but then you need to take into account the different abilities to mobilise.

The Tau can only mobilise maybe a third of their population - and a third of that will be aerospace pilots who can't hope to keep up with their Eldar equivalents - due to their caste system. Water, Earth and Ethereal are noncombatants. Most Air caste are also noncombatants.

The Eldar can mobilise their entire population if they need to. The Aspect Warriors are their equivalent to the Fire Caste, but unlike the Tau, all Eldar are combat-trained. Every artist, farmer, bonesinger, physicist, scullery maid on the Craftworld has combat training and superior physiology to the point where, brute strength aside, they're equal to Space Marines.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Co'tor Shas wrote:
Are you sure? If you included DE yes, but I think you might overestimate the number of CE, and underestimate the number of tau. Thy tau are masters of terraforming, so that mean 4-5 habitable planets per system. With populations probably in the 10 billion range or so, even more so on some planets (I think the main sept world of bor'kan (at least I think it was bor'kan) is basicaly one giant planet-covering city. A tau version of a hive world, just sperad out so it's not so inhospitable.

And Eldar are supposed to have a very small population (at least of living eldar).

Yes, but then you need to take into account the different abilities to mobilise.

The Tau can only mobilise maybe a third of their population - and a third of that will be aerospace pilots who can't hope to keep up with their Eldar equivalents - due to their caste system. Water, Earth and Ethereal are noncombatants. Most Air caste are also noncombatants.

The Eldar can mobilise their entire population if they need to. The Aspect Warriors are their equivalent to the Fire Caste, but unlike the Tau, all Eldar are combat-trained. Every artist, farmer, bonesinger, physicist, scullery maid on the Craftworld has combat training and superior physiology to the point where, brute strength aside, they're equal to Space Marines.

Oh, I agree completely, I just disagreed that there were more CE than Tau.

Basically, tau are fethed. Unless they can figure out how to mass produce those warp power canceling medallions that farsight has, they stand no chance. Even if they do figure out how to do that, it will the be the hardest fight they will have ever had, and will probably enough to break them to the point of near collepse even if they do win. The imperium could just steamroll them at that point, would have two enemies out of the way.

Firstly, it needs to be considered what the respective faction's goal in such a war is, but given the OP I think the sprit of the discussion is that each faction is seeking the total annihilation/conquest of the opposing faction, so we'll work with that.

As for who would 'win'; just on the face of it; it's hard to say for sure. There are a number of significant factors that would have an effect, that we just don't have hard info on. There are 2 big ones that stand out to me.

POPULATION:
Hard numbers on both the Tau and the Eldar are difficulty (or impossible) to find. Particularly as some information imply/suggests numbers that contradict themselves. For instance; the 'Tau Empire' map in the codex, simultaneously implies that Septs can cover multiple nearby star systems, and that they are limited to one star-system each. Personally I interpret Tau space as being densely populated, & their numbers a being reasonably high, higher, by a reasonable margin, than the Eldar, but the opposite interpretation is just as easy to make.

INTERSTELLAR ACCESS:
Eldar FTL (the webway + small, temp, webway tunnels) is considerably faster than TAU FTL (Warp skimming). However, though the Webway is a great advantage, it is also a significant hamstring. It doesn't reach everywhere, and the Eldar have no alternative FTL. According to the Eldar Codex, it reaches to 'Thousands of locations' . . . in a galaxy of hundreds of billions of Stars. Even if that is a gross underestimate; it's still safe to assume there would be large numbers of whole star systems that they are cut off from. We don't know if the Eldar can access all the Tau Systems, if they can't, then a 'win' (i.e. annihilation of the Tau) is almost impossible.

Of course, by the same token, the only way the Tau have a chance at 'victory' (i.e. annihilation of the Eldar) is if they can attack the Craftwords directly, and they would only be able to do that if the Eldar were stupid enough to bring them within reach (which they have no reason to do).

Honestly; I haven't voted in the poll, as I think a stalemate is the most likely outcome, given my own interpretation of the universe.

I'll call an end to this one. Seems eldar win this battle.

-eldar can see paths of fate, but don't know which ones are true, often they can change 'fate' by manipulating events, however this is far from 'seeing the future' often they succeed, largely with some complications though.


But it does seem consensus is to eldar, continue the debate if you wish but it seems fairly one-sided on the poll.

 raiden wrote:
I'll call an end to this one. Seems eldar win this battle.

-eldar can see paths of fate, but don't know which ones are true, often they can change 'fate' by manipulating events, however this is far from 'seeing the future' often they succeed, largely with some complications though.


But it does seem consensus is to eldar, continue the debate if you wish but it seems fairly one-sided on the poll.

The downplaying of the Farseer’s prophetic abilities seems a bit odd; they aren’t some cheap carnival act relying on dumb luck and simple guess work. A perfect prediction is always going to be a nearly impossible task given that the future is always in a state of flux, which is why it is normal practice for Farseer’s to consult with their peers before acting on their visions. Farseer’s will and have acted independently when other Seers have dismissed their visions but this is the exception not the norm and generally ends very badly for everyone involved. In this scenario all of the Craftworld’s Farseer’s are working together to battle a single enemy, the combined effort of their collective minds will almost certainly reduce any mistakes or oversights to a bare minimum.

 StarDrop wrote:
CraftWorlds are in decay.

Source please? From what I've read, Eldar Bonesingers are more than capable of maintaining Craftworlds, which have populations of hundreds of millions or billions.

They are now approximately 10 to 100 times bigger in volume than they were before the Fall.

They were originally Rogue Traders on steroids, now they're full-blown synthetic planets. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Craftworld)


Assuming that all 28 known GW Craftworlds were to unite, they would have a.)a higher population b.)doomsday weapons from before the Fall c.)Void superiority due to numerically/technologically superior Void craft (see: 50 fething million years as an empire that was continually developing technology) d.) higher industrial capability (see: the speed at which Bonesingers build ships) e.) unmatched psychic prowess (unmatched by any but Alpha Psykers and/or Greater Daemons) and, last, but not least, f.) a gak-ton of robots