I can't, practically speaking, see a reason for the Mechanicus not to appropriate and reverse-engineer xeno-tech when it is more advanced than what the Imperium has. Yes, I know that's explicitly forbidden by the Machine Cult. Yes, I know it makes the setting more grimdark. But I'm not a fan of grimderp, which is to say grimdarkness for the sake of grimdarkness. This isn't something that falls under that "The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology..." post that I'm sure many of us have read, at least as far as I am aware; it's not going to cause another Age of Strife, and no daemons are going to possess the tech if it's sanctified like everything else. The only real threat I see is retaliation from whatever xenos species you've chosen to picpocket, which is a nonissue if you pick your battles.
Case in point: the Tau. They've got an empire barely the size of Ultramar, with tech that's in several ways superior to what the Imperium can currently mass-produce. It would be a trivial matter to roll over them, send in the Inquisition to work with the Tau scientists to speed up the reverse-engineering before executing them, and start disseminating the tech into the greater Imperium, advertising it as a new STC.
If I'm wrong about any of this, feel free to explain why I am a blathering idiot.
It seems we have an other corrupted explorator over here. Can someone purge this heretic, and we are at it could we also purge those filthy space monkey lovers. We don't need no inferior Xenos tech, all we need is to revive the Akashic Reader.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is an interesting discussion
The problem isn't that they can't reverse engineer the tech but that there is the huge likelihood that you would be labeled a heretic and die a horrible death. The Imperium is basically under the control of a multitude of people operating under a strict theocracy of sorts. No one person is truly in charge and any person proposing radical changes in policy would open themselves to being labeled as heretical risking their life and standing. A single inquisitor or tech priest might be able to study some xenos tech in secret but its a completely different to incorporate this tech outside your own personal retinue. The Imperium's hands are tied by their own ideology and general mistrust of all things different and unknown.
asorel wrote: I can't, practically speaking, see a reason for the Mechanicus not to appropriate and reverse-engineer xeno-tech when it is more advanced than what the Imperium has. Yes, I know that's explicitly forbidden by the Machine Cult. Yes, I know it makes the setting more grimdark. But I'm not a fan of grimderp, which is to say grimdarkness for the sake of grimdarkness. This isn't something that falls under that "The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology..." post that I'm sure many of us have read, at least as far as I am aware; it's not going to cause another Age of Strife, and no daemons are going to possess the tech if it's sanctified like everything else. The only real threat I see is retaliation from whatever xenos species you've chosen to picpocket, which is a nonissue if you pick your battles.
Case in point: the Tau. They've got an empire barely the size of Ultramar, with tech that's in several ways superior to what the Imperium can currently mass-produce. It would be a trivial matter to roll over them, send in the Inquisition to work with the Tau scientists to speed up the reverse-engineering before executing them, and start disseminating the tech into the greater Imperium, advertising it as a new STC.
If I'm wrong about any of this, feel free to explain why I am a blathering idiot.
The Tau may look and sound advanced, but they really aren't. They do not have wide spread use of portable direct energy weapons, for example; they use rail technology, which is a different beast entirely. The "plasma" is really just a super-heated projectile, much easier to accomplish tech wise than a lethal direct energy weapon. The Imperium can even mass produce such weapons.
Most of this view of the Tau being technologically advanced is due to not understanding the difference in logistics or ideologies; the Imperium has a much larger army spread out over a wider distance than the Tau, and as such favors durable and easy to produce equipment. The Tau has a much smaller army over a distance, and as such can afford to give their soldiers the best equipment possible.
The Imperium has a cultural fear of AI, due to the Man of Iron incident. The Tau has not yet experienced such a disaster. There's also the fact that the Ad Mech has a great hatred of any non-human tech, and as such would be reluctant to adapt it for human use. They are not above researching it, however, to find any exploitable weaknesses.
asorel wrote: I can't, practically speaking, see a reason for the Mechanicus not to appropriate and reverse-engineer xeno-tech when it is more advanced than what the Imperium has. Yes, I know that's explicitly forbidden by the Machine Cult. Yes, I know it makes the setting more grimdark. But I'm not a fan of grimderp, which is to say grimdarkness for the sake of grimdarkness. This isn't something that falls under that "The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology..." post that I'm sure many of us have read, at least as far as I am aware; it's not going to cause another Age of Strife, and no daemons are going to possess the tech if it's sanctified like everything else. The only real threat I see is retaliation from whatever xenos species you've chosen to picpocket, which is a nonissue if you pick your battles.
Case in point: the Tau. They've got an empire barely the size of Ultramar, with tech that's in several ways superior to what the Imperium can currently mass-produce. It would be a trivial matter to roll over them, send in the Inquisition to work with the Tau scientists to speed up the reverse-engineering before executing them, and start disseminating the tech into the greater Imperium, advertising it as a new STC.
If I'm wrong about any of this, feel free to explain why I am a blathering idiot.
The Tau may look and sound advanced, but they really aren't.
They do not have wide spread use of portable direct energy weapons, for example; they use rail technology, which is a different beast entirely.
The "plasma" is really just a super-heated projectile, much easier to accomplish tech wise than a lethal direct energy weapon.
The Imperium can even mass produce such weapons.
Most of this view of the Tau being technologically advanced is due to not understanding the difference in logistics or ideologies; the Imperium has a much larger army spread out over a wider distance than the Tau, and as such favors durable and easy to produce equipment. The Tau has a much smaller army over a distance, and as such can afford to give their soldiers the best equipment possible.
The Imperium has a cultural fear of AI, due to the Man of Iron incident. The Tau has not yet experienced such a disaster.
There's also the fact that the Ad Mech has a great hatred of any non-human tech, and as such would be reluctant to adapt it for human use. They are not above researching it, however, to find any exploitable weaknesses.
Do the tau actually use AI? I thought their drones were of the remote-controlled variety.
Edit: Lexicanum claims that Tau pulse rifles are in fact a form of plasma weaponry, and the plasma rifle is undeniably plasma-based.
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Vankraken wrote: The problem isn't that they can't reverse engineer the tech but that there is the huge likelihood that you would be labeled a heretic and die a horrible death. The Imperium is basically under the control of a multitude of people operating under a strict theocracy of sorts. No one person is truly in charge and any person proposing radical changes in policy would open themselves to being labeled as heretical risking their life and standing. A single inquisitor or tech priest might be able to study some xenos tech in secret but its a completely different to incorporate this tech outside your own personal retinue. The Imperium's hands are tied by their own ideology and general mistrust of all things different and unknown.
I'd say the number of radical Inquisitors and AdMech priests are sufficient to pull this off. I'd argue that something similar has happened at least once before, though in this case it was something that was likely invented instead of scavenged. Space Marine Centurion armor is said to have come from an STC. This is obviously false, as Space Marines came a good five thousand years after STCs were active.
curran12 wrote: So wait, if the Tau is vastly superior to the Imperium, how come "It would be a trivial matter to roll over them"?
If it was superior, why can what the Imperium has roll over it?
/devilsadvocate
Because it's superior, but not vastly superior. And the Imperium has numbers, not to mention advances in other areas.
What's superior about it exactly? Examples, sources, direct comparisons.
The primary direct advantage is more one of reliability and distribution. Tau pulse rifles, for instance, hit harder than a standard boltgun and have better range. Unlike bolt weapons, however, these weapons are mass-produced and are standard issue for basic infantry, not the elite of the elite.
After that it's accuracy and target acquisition. Markerlights, precision guided missiles, and so on.
Then there are the multiple variations of stealthsuits fielded by them.
Finally, it's that Tau have a more-than-practical understanding of their tech, given that they haven't scavenged it from old STCs. This knowledge could be captured as well, though it wouldn't have as significant immediate effect as quick and dirty reverse engineering.
The Tau empire is a fraction of the size of the Imperium. Let me know how their distribution works on a scale of the galaxy, and not their collection of 3-5 sectors. Comparing it to something that spans the whole length of the galaxy is a poor comparison, because it removes all discussion of context.
The pulse rifle itself hits harder, yes. But has less armor penetration and also relies on constant resupply. Which is fine when you are on a micro scale that the Tau empire is in. But when you are spread across the galaxy, a weapon that you can reload by tossing its cells into a campfire (the lasgun, which is the far more common Imperium weapon) trumps it in durability, ruggedness and independence.
curran12 wrote: The Tau empire is a fraction of the size of the Imperium. Let me know how their distribution works on a scale of the galaxy, and not their collection of 3-5 sectors. Comparing it to something that spans the whole length of the galaxy is a poor comparison, because it removes all discussion of context.
The pulse rifle itself hits harder, yes. But has less armor penetration and also relies on constant resupply. Which is fine when you are on a micro scale that the Tau empire is in. But when you are spread across the galaxy, a weapon that you can reload by tossing its cells into a campfire (the lasgun, which is the far more common Imperium weapon) trumps it in durability, ruggedness and independence.
Replacing the lasgun would be a waste, as the entire point of such a weapon is its expendability. However, pulse weaponry (S5 AP5 30") is an excellent replacement for bolt weapons (S4 AP5 24"), more reliable, and easier to produce to boot. As for distribution, note that the Tau also have fewer manufacturing centers, and I doubt what they have is comparable to the single-mindedness and population density of a Forge World.
First all, drop game stats. We're talking fluff, not rules. The rules are abstractions.
Second, you prove my point. The Tau work on a -micro- scale. They can distribute and produce effectively in a scale of the Tau Empire. Which is the tiniest of tiny fragments when comparing it to the Imperium. Does it work better there? Absolutely. But we're talking galaxy-scale here.
Also, how are pulse rifles more reliable and easier to produce? Citation needed.
curran12 wrote: First all, drop game stats. We're talking fluff, not rules. The rules are abstractions.
Second, you prove my point. The Tau work on a -micro- scale. They can distribute and produce effectively in a scale of the Tau Empire. Which is the tiniest of tiny fragments when comparing it to the Imperium. Does it work better there? Absolutely. But we're talking galaxy-scale here.
Also, how are pulse rifles more reliable and easier to produce? Citation needed.
It's not so much a quality of the pulse rifle as it is a drawback of bolters. I was under the impression that bolt weapons are notoriously cantankerous, and requite constant cleaning and maintenance to function properly.
curran12 wrote: Not really, I don't remember anything that says bolt weapons are cantankerous. Got a source?
Only something from warhammer40k.wikia, which I understand is less reputable than Lexicanum:
The Bolter is complex to produce and requires dedicated maintenance, which prevents it from being issued more widely throughout the Imperial Guard.
Also, the Hammer of the Emperor supplement to Only War refers to the mk 38 bolt pistol as "difficult to maintain even when compared to bolters," which implies that the regular godwyn pattern needs lots of attention to keep it functional.
Without sources, I would think it's not an unreasonable assumption to make, given how many steps there are between pulling the trigger and the bolt firing.
Yes, but that also ignores the complete lack of fluff and development in terms of pulse rifles. There's a lot of material about bolters given there are multiple games and rpgs that use bolters and give them fluff. How many do the same for the Tau? Lack of evidence is not proof.
Also, as mentioned before, you are comparing the mass-issue infantry rifle of the Tau with the standard-issue for the super elite Space Marines. The fair comparison is with the lasgun, as that is the main line Imperium gun.
curran12 wrote: Yes, but that also ignores the complete lack of fluff and development in terms of pulse rifles. There's a lot of material about bolters given there are multiple games and rpgs that use bolters and give them fluff. How many do the same for the Tau? Lack of evidence is not proof.
Also, as mentioned before, you are comparing the mass-issue infantry rifle of the Tau with the standard-issue for the super elite Space Marines. The fair comparison is with the lasgun, as that is the main line Imperium gun.
Then let's drop ease of manufacture from the discussion. As I also mentioned, Tau facilities aren't comparable to Forge Worlds, who may well be able to churn out pulse weapons as often as, say, meltaguns given the specifications. But we don't have enough data on either pulse weapons or Tau facilities to make a definitive statement.
I'd say the Tempestus are a better direct comparison to the Fire Warriors. Both are trained/designated from birth, and neither relies on human wave tactics the way certain regiments of the Guard do. Lasguns may be the default in the same way the pulse rifle is the default, but Guardsmen blobs aren't used on the battlefield in the same way Tau cadres are. Also, I fail to see how comparing Imperium units to Tau units is relevant to the practicality of introducing such tech to the Imperium. If the pulse rifle serves the special forces better than it serves the basic infantry, there's no reason to give it to the latter just because that's what the original owners did.
Krellnus wrote: Isn't one of the mechanicum's tenets:
The alien mechanism is a perversion of the true path, but by studying it the true path can be revealed?
It words to that effect at least.
To quote the OP: "Yes, I know that's explicitly forbidden by the Machine Cult."
It's the ninth Universal Law of the AdMech, The alien mechanism is a perversion of the True Path.
One could, however, interpret this to mean that the alien mechanism should be brought to the True Path by adapting it and improving upon it. At least, that's what the radicals tell themselves. However, this thread is meant to be an exploration of the practical limitations of such acts, not theological ones.
If I was going to pick one grab of tech to steal, it would have to be the stealth fields. It might actually make the concept of SM stealth not so laughable.
Which is their only restriction, the imperium is an organization whose only limit on resources is the time it takes to move them from point a to b. The only real restriction they have on reverse engineering is a tenuous theological one.
Krellnus wrote: Which is their only restriction, the imperium is an organization whose only limit on resources is the time it takes to move them from point a to b. The only real restriction they have on reverse engineering is a tenuous theological one.
Taking things from Eldar (to a small extent), Necrons, and anything else that has the potential to give the Imperium a large amount of pain for stealing their secrets. Not enough to pose a serious threat to humanity on its own, but enough personal, immediate that most people wouldn't bother trying.
The reason it does not happen on a large scale is twofold, both related to the AdMechs religion (remember they are more then engineers they are priests). First they see everything made by humans as holy and blessed by the Machine God and second everything Xenos is unholy and blasphemous to the Machine God. Yes there are outliners who will go against this but they are a very small minority. To the majority there is no need to reverse engineer xeno tech because everything of value has already been created by man they just need to find it and to suggest otherwise is heresy. I know you said you hate grimderp, and do too, but sometimes that's the point. The people of this time don't think like us and will do stupid thing for little reason and that's the tragedy of the setting.
asorel wrote: Yes, I know it makes the setting more grimdark.
But that's not what this is. It's an inherent part of what defines the Imperium. Asking why they don't reverse-engineer Tau technology is like asking why Muslims don't eat bacon. The Imperium is not a rational and pragmatic organization, they're an insane theocracy that just happened to be lucky enough to inherit the power of a better society.
Rogue trader core rule book wrote:Ghost Field. .. ... To posses it is to invite damnation, but even crudely and imperfectly installed aboard a ship...
Rogue trader core rule book wrote: Runecaster. Another example of Eldar technology, Runecasters are often housed in large, vaulted chambers... ... Xeno-tech researchers have re-appropriated the devices from their previous, unknown purposes. Through some incomprehensible means the device is almost prescient - Aiding Navigators in avoiding the worst storms of the Immaterium
codex inquisition wrote:SCYTHIAN VENOM TALON... ... Quite how the Inquisition have come to acquire
such weapons is perhaps best left to the imagination.
codex inquisition wrote:The needle pistol is a small and elegant weapon of clouded origins
They tried to capture the soulspear to reverse engineer it.
Then there are the null rods and the dread knights
Now tell me where the rest of you xenophiles are to host a nice convention.
Also, the Hammer of the Emperor supplement to Only War refers to the mk 38 bolt pistol as "difficult to maintain even when compared to bolters," which implies that the regular godwyn pattern needs lots of attention to keep it functional.
Without sources, I would think it's not an unreasonable assumption to make, given how many steps there are between pulling the trigger and the bolt firing.
Again, if we're pulling in FFG background, bear in mind that astartes-calibre bolt weapons hit harder than pulse weapons - there's a distinct gap in capability between Astartes/Legion bolt weaponry and everyone else's.
Rolling over the Tau Empire isn't a 'trivial matter' - the Imperium tried, but the Damocles Gulf crusade got bogged down. It probably would have won, if they'd kept feeding regiments and chapters into it, but Tyranids.
Plus, reverse-engineering hardware - at least to an extent that you can produce it on an industrial scale - takes years, because even if you know how it works you've got to figure out how to make machines to make the machines to make the bits.
The imperium does snatch, grab and develop unique bits of technology on a regular basis - special ammunition for the deathwatch, stealth tech based on tau battlesuit hardware, necron phase tech for the assassinorium, etc, etc, but it's all hand-made by magos.
The whole master/apprentice/personal forge-fief structure of the upper mechanicus is set up very well to produce one-off items at ridiculous technology levels, which is great if you want to produce master-crafted weapons for half a dozen chapter masters. It's not so great if you want to arm the entire chapter with something other than a Godwyn Mk6.
While you could reverse-engineer that Pulse Rifle and start production pretty soon (as the IoM sees time) you do run into other practical problems. Such as you already having the facilities to produce lasguns and bolters, customers for those and a long chain of providers that bring in the materials for those weapons, all bound by feudal contracts millenia old. It would upset the balance. A lot of new contracts would have to be negotiated, production lines rebuilt, material-producing colonies refocused and processing plants reset.
And ofc, a huge number of TechPriests etc would have to be recalled to Mars so you could teach them how to service the new weapons. Take them all at once and everything in every Imperial Army will be left without service!
Spetulhu wrote: While you could reverse-engineer that Pulse Rifle and start production pretty soon (as the IoM sees time) you do run into other practical problems. Such as you already having the facilities to produce lasguns and bolters, customers for those and a long chain of providers that bring in the materials for those weapons, all bound by feudal contracts millenia old. It would upset the balance. A lot of new contracts would have to be negotiated, production lines rebuilt, material-producing colonies refocused and processing plants reset.
And ofc, a huge number of TechPriests etc would have to be recalled to Mars so you could teach them how to service the new weapons. Take them all at once and everything in every Imperial Army will be left without service!
Thus my previous idea of a Loyalist chapter possessing hidden research facilities studying xeno weaponry (Coming from a schism within the Mechanicus itself) and fielding such weapons when Inquisitors are looking the other way.
asorel wrote:
Do the tau actually use AI? I thought their drones were of the remote-controlled variety.
No, Tau Drones are networked dumb AI that, when enough units join the network, they become true AI. The 'Drone Controller' support system effectively lets a Tau brain interface with the Drone network, which has the same effect as adding lots and lots of drones to it, while at the same time giving the Tau direct control over the drones, since their 'brain' is effectively also part of his or her 'brain'.
Edit: Lexicanum claims that Tau pulse rifles are in fact a form of plasma weaponry, and the plasma rifle is undeniably plasma-based.
Yes, sort of - Tau Plasma Pulse weaponry works by subjecting a solid metal projectile to stresses that cause it to go to energy state four as it leaves the barrel. However, this doesn't burn nearly as hot as 'true' plasma weaponry, which uses mixed gasses then ignites them to create star-like projectiles.
While technically the Pulse weaponry is a better use of the word plasma, it's on an entirely different level of heat and damage than the standard 'plasma' weaponry.
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Vankraken wrote: The problem isn't that they can't reverse engineer the tech but that there is the huge likelihood that you would be labeled a heretic and die a horrible death. The Imperium is basically under the control of a multitude of people operating under a strict theocracy of sorts. No one person is truly in charge and any person proposing radical changes in policy would open themselves to being labeled as heretical risking their life and standing. A single inquisitor or tech priest might be able to study some xenos tech in secret but its a completely different to incorporate this tech outside your own personal retinue. The Imperium's hands are tied by their own ideology and general mistrust of all things different and unknown.
I'd say the number of radical Inquisitors and AdMech priests are sufficient to pull this off. I'd argue that something similar has happened at least once before, though in this case it was something that was likely invented instead of scavenged. Space Marine Centurion armor is said to have come from an STC. This is obviously false, as Space Marines came a good five thousand years after STCs were active.
curran12 wrote:Not really, I don't remember anything that says bolt weapons are cantankerous. Got a source?
locarno24 wrote:Also, the Hammer of the Emperor supplement to Only War refers to the mk 38 bolt pistol as "difficult to maintain even when compared to bolters," which implies that the regular godwyn pattern needs lots of attention to keep it functional.
Bolters have always been noted as being unreliable - look at the fluff for Necromunda, where a bolter is considered a powerful, but inefficient status symbol. Kind of like a gangster with a Desert Eagle. It's big, it's powerful, but it's not sensible and is going to jam more often than it fires because you don't know how to maintain it properly.
Plus, reverse-engineering hardware - at least to an extent that you can produce it on an industrial scale - takes years, because even if you know how it works you've got to figure out how to make machines to make the machines to make the bits.
The imperium does snatch, grab and develop unique bits of technology on a regular basis - special ammunition for the deathwatch, stealth tech based on tau battlesuit hardware, necron phase tech for the assassinorium, etc, etc, but it's all hand-made by magos.
Not exactly - all Assassinorium Phase Weaponry is stolen, the Imperium are not capable of producing it and never have been.
No, the main problem with the AdMech reverse-engineering things is actually not their dogma or their technology base.
The main problem with the AdMech trying to reverse engineer things is that their entire knowledge about how technology works is based off remembering songs and prayers that were derived from the user manuals.
Imagine if someone gave you a disassembled computer with a couple of cracked boards and the user manual for it, then without telling you what a cable is, asked you to put it together, then figure out how to make more of them once you've got it working.
That is the kind of problem the AdMech face every time they try to investigate new technology. When you realise that, it becomes obvious that aside from some information-sharing difficulties, what the AdMech have achieved in the last ten thousand years? It's fricken impressive.
One other problem with trying to reverse-engineer xenos technology is that it still doesn't change the fundamental problem: the admech are a cargo cult that rejects the entire concept of engineering. Their problem isn't a lack of artifacts to study, it's that they consider the idea of "make something, see how it works, and make it better" to be heresy. According to their religious beliefs perfect technology has already been invented, and the only acceptable method of progress is recovering that previous work. So even if they didn't have a religious objection to looting xenos technology they'd never be able to understand it. They might be able to follow the blueprints and mount a railgun on a LRBT, but they'd never be able to build a bigger railgun to mount on a Baneblade or a small railgun to replace bolters.
Because it's, you know, blatantly bullgak, because adapting existing technology into new forms is the acceptable way to create new things - like Land Raider Crusaders and Stormblade super-heavies. They squabbled over it, sure, but then someone says: "It's not invention, it's adaption, that's fine isn't it?"
And they looked at the books, and decided; "Yeah, actually that one's acceptable."
The AdMech are not adverse to engineering. They are adverse to invention.
Furyou Miko wrote: The AdMech are not adverse to engineering. They are adverse to invention.
Yeah, individually they don't want to be labelled as heretics and collectively they don't want to bring about another Dark Age.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The HH books state that Volkite weaponry was the standard for early Marines, until demand outstripped supply and then it was simply easier to give them bolters.
Furyou Miko wrote: Because it's, you know, blatantly bullgak, because adapting existing technology into new forms is the acceptable way to create new things - like Land Raider Crusaders and Stormblade super-heavies. They squabbled over it, sure, but then someone says: "It's not invention, it's adaption, that's fine isn't it?"
Bolting a new gun to the side of a tank barely counts as progress, especially when it takes hundreds of years of fighting over whether the sacred STC data grants permission to do it. And the Stormblade is a 30k-era tank.
The AdMech are not adverse to engineering. They are adverse to invention.
No, engineering and invention are *not* the same thing.
An engineer can look at a set of design schematics and say "Yeah, I can build that thing" and then go out and build that thing. The Engineer can even take an incomplete schematic and say "It looks like we can replace Missing Part A with Known Part B from this other thing I can build", and so they do that.
The Inventor says, "I thought up this totally new thing that improves combat effectiveness by 5%". The Engineer says, "Yeah? I'm trying to recover something we used to know how to build that would improve combat effectiveness by 50,000%".
Invention often requires skill in engineering, but it is not, in fact, simply engineering rebranded.
"bolting another gun to the side" does require engineering, and is not invention. You need to figure out compatibility issues, sort out a whole new targetting and ammunition feed system, calculate the stresses on the fastenings... it's actually a very involved job.
Here's some perspective for you, oh disparager of engineers;
Lawyers study for five years to get their Bachelor's Degree.
Architectural Engineers study for seven.
As for the stormblade, fine, bad example. I meant the Stormsword. You can forgive me for a little mistake, right, big man?
Psienesis wrote: An engineer can look at a set of design schematics and say "Yeah, I can build that thing" and then go out and build that thing. The Engineer can even take an incomplete schematic and say "It looks like we can replace Missing Part A with Known Part B from this other thing I can build", and so they do that.
Speaking as an engineer you're completely wrong about this. A person who can look at a design and assemble it is a factory worker, not an engineer. An engineer is the person who creates that schematic in the first place.
The Inventor says, "I thought up this totally new thing that improves combat effectiveness by 5%".
No, that's what an engineer does. They take a problem ("we need more combat effectiveness in {area}"), apply their knowledge to design a solution, and then refine that solution until they have a finished product that is ready to use. And then they had the design to the factory workers and say "build a bunch of copies of this".
The Engineer says, "Yeah? I'm trying to recover something we used to know how to build that would improve combat effectiveness by 50,000%".
No, that's what a library researcher does. The whole point of engineering is that you know how things work and you don't need to limit yourself to reproducing work that someone has already done.
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Furyou Miko wrote: "bolting another gun to the side" does require engineering, and is not invention. You need to figure out compatibility issues, sort out a whole new targetting and ammunition feed system, calculate the stresses on the fastenings... it's actually a very involved job.
You're right. It is engineering/invention, and I acknowledged that it is. What I actually said was that it barely counts. It's a very, very limited accomplishment compared to designing an entire new gun to go in a new turret mount, especially when that small task requires centuries of arguing about whether it should be allowed or not. Or compared to designing a new tank, something real-world engineers are capable of but the Imperium is not.
Here's some perspective for you, oh disparager of engineers;
Er, lol? I am an engineer, and pointing out that the Imperium rejects the fundamental principles of engineering does not mean disparaging engineers at all.
curran12 wrote:The Tau empire is a fraction of the size of the Imperium. Let me know how their distribution works on a scale of the galaxy, and not their collection of 3-5 sectors. Comparing it to something that spans the whole length of the galaxy is a poor comparison, because it removes all discussion of context.
The pulse rifle itself hits harder, yes. But has less armor penetration and also relies on constant resupply. Which is fine when you are on a micro scale that the Tau empire is in. But when you are spread across the galaxy, a weapon that you can reload by tossing its cells into a campfire (the lasgun, which is the far more common Imperium weapon) trumps it in durability, ruggedness and independence.
curran12 wrote: So wait, if the Tau is vastly superior to the Imperium, how come "It would be a trivial matter to roll over them"?
If it was superior, why can what the Imperium has roll over it?
/devilsadvocate
Because it's superior, but not vastly superior. And the Imperium has numbers, not to mention advances in other areas.
What's superior about it exactly? Examples, sources, direct comparisons.
The primary direct advantage is more one of reliability and distribution. Tau pulse rifles, for instance, hit harder than a standard boltgun and have better range. Unlike bolt weapons, however, these weapons are mass-produced and are standard issue for basic infantry, not the elite of the elite.
After that it's accuracy and target acquisition. Markerlights, precision guided missiles, and so on.
Then there are the multiple variations of stealthsuits fielded by them.
Finally, it's that Tau have a more-than-practical understanding of their tech, given that they haven't scavenged it from old STCs. This knowledge could be captured as well, though it wouldn't have as significant immediate effect as quick and dirty reverse engineering.
nomotog wrote:If I was going to pick one grab of tech to steal, it would have to be the stealth fields. It might actually make the concept of SM stealth not so laughable.
The Imperium can already make Pulse Weaponry. It's a little something called Volkite weaponry, and it is vastly superior to both Pulse Rifles and Bolt weapons. Unfortunately, it is incredibly difficult to reproduce, and thus fell out of favor in the face of the Bolter's relative ease of manufacture. There are thousands] of Forge Worlds that had this STC during the GC, so it would stand to reason that at least a few still have it.
Let's see here:
- Pulse Weaponry: harder to manufacture than the Bolt Gun, less understood, and less effective for the shock 'n awe warfare that Space Marines regularly take part in (the Bolter was designed to be able to effectively deal significant damage to large aliens and inspire crap-you-pants level of terror in humans and lesser Xenos; something which is not reflected on the tabletop), and significantly more difficult to reproduce than Las Weaponry, and insanely difficult to maintain in comparison to Las weaponry... I'll pass
- Tau stealth technology is already countered by tried and true Imperial stealth technology - Tau Void capabilities are already outstripped by Imperial Void technology, as we all know
- Tau battlesuits and the like are already countered by things like Dreadnoughts, Centurions, etc.
Plus, reverse-engineering hardware - at least to an extent that you can produce it on an industrial scale - takes years, because even if you know how it works you've got to figure out how to make machines to make the machines to make the bits.
The imperium does snatch, grab and develop unique bits of technology on a regular basis - special ammunition for the deathwatch, stealth tech based on tau battlesuit hardware, necron phase tech for the assassinorium, etc, etc, but it's all hand-made by magos.
Not exactly - all Assassinorium Phase Weaponry is stolen, the Imperium are not capable of producing it and never have been.
No, the main problem with the AdMech reverse-engineering things is actually not their dogma or their technology base.
The main problem with the AdMech trying to reverse engineer things is that their entire knowledge about how technology works is based off remembering songs and prayers that were derived from the user manuals.
Imagine if someone gave you a disassembled computer with a couple of cracked boards and the user manual for it, then without telling you what a cable is, asked you to put it together, then figure out how to make more of them once you've got it working.
That is the kind of problem the AdMech face every time they try to investigate new technology. When you realise that, it becomes obvious that aside from some information-sharing difficulties, what the AdMech have achieved in the last ten thousand years? It's fricken impressive.
This. Sheer belief has made AdMech dogma become slightly truer (machine spirits), but it still has prevented from actually learning how many of their technology works.
LethalShade wrote: Well, Volkite weaponry is from the Dark Age of Technology/Age of Strife, as are many Imperial OPplznerf weapons.
Imperial Stealth technology is inferior to Tau one, because you actually need to wear the cloak, which restricts your movements.
Tau battlesuits are way more agile than Dreadnoughts.
Tau Battlesuits don't even come close to being on par with Dreadnoughts. That's like comparing an APC to a Tank. Also, how would wearing the cloak restrict your movements? That's like saying wearing clothes restricts your movements.
It is for the same reasons muslims do not eat pork. It is forbidden by their religion. You don't just go against your religion. You can talk about practical limits all you want, but the AdMech is a theocracy. They do not distinguish between religion and practice, everything is religion, and all of their logic and acts are motivated by religion.
That said, there are several groups in the AdMech that have a more liberal interpretation of the religious scriptures, but more orthodox groups regard them as borderline heretics.
Most AdMech are of the opinion that reverse-engineering xeno tech is not only heresy, but also a waste of time. Their time is better spend searching for the STC, for should they ever find it, they will instantly be able to return to DAoT levels of tech, which are above anything xenos or men have ever made, save for the near-magical tech of the Necrons or the most advanced ancient Eldar constructs.
There are hints however that even if they did find a full STC system, they would not be able to do much with it. In Index Astartes: Centurions it is mentioned that the AdMech has recovered several STC copies that proved impossible to produce with their current level of tech.
Another problem is that, in the 40k universe, there actually are corrupting influences at work in much of the Xenotech encountered.
Chaos technology can turn you into a flesh-changed pustule, or make you sprout tentacles, simply by studying it. The threat to the soul is quite literally real, whether operating or (especially) attempting to research and understand it. There literally is a Dark Side with warp tech that will inevitably corrupt whoever associates with it.
Eldar tech is seductive in a different way. Wraithbone's sleek outward appearance masks a subtle psychic component; not only do most humans lack the passive psychic potential to operate it, but the psychic component is a two-way circuit that influences the operator (or researcher) even as s/he seeks to activate it. The influence is more subtle than Chaos, but over time the effect is cumulative.
Dark Eldar tech, being perverted by their obsession with pain and terror, is even more likely to subvert the minds and soul of an unwary researcher than the Craftworld/Exodite variety.
Ork Tek is often disregarded for it's crudeness, but realistically it, too may (or may not) require some psychokinetic ability to activate. In addition, the inherent unreliability and outright danger of more advanced Ork tek makes it unattractive to research, despite the dramatic results it can achieve. Finally, because Ork Tek is invariably hand-built and heavily kustomized it's unsuitable for mass production by Imperial manufactora or employment by the military.
Necron tech is simply too dangerous and alien for humans to understand. While the Mechanicum would never admit it, Necrotech is too advanced for humans to understand. Techpriest investigations are akin to a six year old initiating a cold fusion reaction. In addition, Necron tech is not designed for use by biological operators. There is no need for extensive shielding when the users are expendable cogs composed of essentially immortal Necrodermis. The side effects of normal operation can be lethal to humans. Finally, Necron tech deals with advanced manipulation of time and space that was theoretical for humans during the Dark Age of Technology... the impact on humans and the environment is very poorly understood.
Tyranid 'tech' is forced bio-evolution and not technology in the human sense. Like the Necrons it's beyond human grasp. For all the gene engineering that went into Space Marines (which is largely lost) Humans don't even understand the theory that might lead to something like the Tyranids employ. The Anphelion Project is a classic example of what happens when humans inquire too deeply into Tyranid Xenos.
Tau tech might be adaptable to Imperial needs, being based on known scientific principles and lacking psychic and/or corrupting influences. However, in light of the catastrophic results of meddling with other Xenotech the Imperium is understandably leery of researching Tau tech willy-nilly, without careful, deliberate procedures and without extensive safeguards.
The Imperium as a whole has learned to forbid inquiry. It is rabidly risk-avoidant, and with good reason; beyond merely destroying you, Xenotech can corrupt you into the 'enemy within'. The existence of the Inquisition, Exterminatus and the Mechanicum's own strictures against the heresies of experimentation and curiosity are clear evidence of this.
There are sanctioned investigators who study Xenotech in order to develop countermeasures. They move at a snail's pace, with elaborate safeguards, constant oversight and a watchful eye to prevent deviation from good, clean human influences. They are more interested in developing human tech counters to xeno threats, such as armor and shields attuned to resist enemy weapons (or human weapons attuned to penetrate xeno defenses), jammers to block enemy communication and the like. They do not try to develop a human pulse rifle or Shuriken catapult, because those alien weapons are disgustingly un-human and dangerous.
Do some tech priests, inquisitors, rogue traders, etc. take risks and study Xenotech? Sure, but it's heresy, punishable by extermination. Just studying Xenotech is dangerous, literally, to body and soul and sanity.
Most 40k fans just don't get that fear of Xenotech isn't just a sign of how myopic, insular and stubbornly human-centric the IOM is (though all that is certainly true). In the 40k millieu Xenotech really CAN twist your body and soul into something inhuman, irredeemably evil and stark, raving mad. There really ARE Secrets Man Was Not Meant To Know.
The Imperium can already make Pulse Weaponry. It's a little something called Volkite weaponry, and it is vastly superior to both Pulse Rifles and Bolt weapons. Unfortunately, it is incredibly difficult to reproduce, and thus fell out of favor in the face of the Bolter's relative ease of manufacture. There are thousands] of Forge Worlds that had this STC during the GC, so it would stand to reason that at least a few still have it.
Let's see here:
- Pulse Weaponry: harder to manufacture than the Bolt Gun, less understood, and less effective for the shock 'n awe warfare that Space Marines regularly take part in (the Bolter was designed to be able to effectively deal significant damage to large aliens and inspire crap-you-pants level of terror in humans and lesser Xenos; something which is not reflected on the tabletop), and significantly more difficult to reproduce than Las Weaponry, and insanely difficult to maintain in comparison to Las weaponry... I'll pass
- Tau stealth technology is already countered by tried and true Imperial stealth technology - Tau Void capabilities are already outstripped by Imperial Void technology, as we all know
- Tau battlesuits and the like are already countered by things like Dreadnoughts, Centurions, etc.
Few points, Volkatie weaponry is really nothing like pulse tech. Vokite is more similar to ion weaponry than anything. Although, IIRC, they stopped equipping SMs with them sometime after(?) the great crusade because they couldn't keep up with demand. So they switched to bold weaponry, which was originally designed so that regular humans could hit with equal power to stuff like orks.
Source on harder to manufacture or less understood? It's plasma tech, it's pretty well understood. And I seriously doubt the tau invest more in their FWs than the imperium does in SMs.
Camo-cloaks really aren't like tau stealth tech at all. Camo-cloaks are active camo, tau stealth tech has light being bend around you, complete invisibility, with jammers playing havoc with the full EM spectrum, blocking almost all detection. They are similar in purpose, but not how they work. Not really a direct comparison at all. I'm unsure if tau have any active camo, at the very least it was never mentioned. Although they probably do, I mean we are working on it now.
Tau warp tech is gak, and will always be gak, but that's more a physiological problem than a technology one. Without navigators, the imperium is in the same place as the tau, warp-wise.
As far as walkers go, they are about evenly matched, although the imperium does tend to go the bigger is better route (I'm convinced that the emperor is was compensating for something ). Although tau stuff is certainly more common, relatively speaking, as there a few SMs, and even fewer SM walkers. The real comparison would be walkers like sentinels, but they serve a different purpose, so are not really comparable.
LethalShade wrote: Well, Volkite weaponry is from the Dark Age of Technology/Age of Strife, as are many Imperial OPplznerf weapons.
Imperial Stealth technology is inferior to Tau one, because you actually need to wear the cloak, which restricts your movements.
Tau battlesuits are way more agile than Dreadnoughts.
Tau Battlesuits don't even come close to being on par with Dreadnoughts. That's like comparing an APC to a Tank.
Not really. Not at all in fact. In fact, battlesuits can pack some pretty powerful weaponry, and the broadsides trades jetpacks to be just as tough as dreadnoughts, with guns that put some actual tank weapons to shame (at least in fluff, the HRR is pretty gak in TT). But without that whole "nearly dead SM" thing. And then you look at stuff like XV9s, XV10s, ect.
Another problem is that, in the 40k universe, there actually are corrupting influences at work in much of the Xenotech encountered.
Chaos technology can turn you into a flesh-changed pustule, or make you sprout tentacles, simply by studying it. The threat to the soul is quite literally real, whether operating or (especially) attempting to research and understand it. There literally is a Dark Side with warp tech that will inevitably corrupt whoever associates with it.
Eldar tech is seductive in a different way. Wraithbone's sleek outward appearance masks a subtle psychic component; not only do most humans lack the passive psychic potential to operate it, but the psychic component is a two-way circuit that influences the operator (or researcher) even as s/he seeks to activate it. The influence is more subtle than Chaos, but over time the effect is cumulative.
Dark Eldar tech, being perverted by their obsession with pain and terror, is even more likely to subvert the minds and soul of an unwary researcher than the Craftworld/Exodite variety.
Ork Tek is often disregarded for it's crudeness, but realistically it, too may (or may not) require some psychokinetic ability to activate. In addition, the inherent unreliability and outright danger of more advanced Ork tek makes it unattractive to research, despite the dramatic results it can achieve. Finally, because Ork Tek is invariably hand-built and heavily kustomized it's unsuitable for mass production by Imperial manufactora or employment by the military.
Necron tech is simply too dangerous and alien for humans to understand. While the Mechanicum would never admit it, Necrotech is too advanced for humans to understand. Techpriest investigations are akin to a six year old initiating a cold fusion reaction. In addition, Necron tech is not designed for use by biological operators. There is no need for extensive shielding when the users are expendable cogs composed of essentially immortal Necrodermis. The side effects of normal operation can be lethal to humans. Finally, Necron tech deals with advanced manipulation of time and space that was theoretical for humans during the Dark Age of Technology... the impact on humans and the environment is very poorly understood.
Tyranid 'tech' is forced bio-evolution and not technology in the human sense. Like the Necrons it's beyond human grasp. For all the gene engineering that went into Space Marines (which is largely lost) Humans don't even understand the theory that might lead to something like the Tyranids employ. The Anphelion Project is a classic example of what happens when humans inquire too deeply into Tyranid Xenos.
Tau tech might be adaptable to Imperial needs, being based on known scientific principles and lacking psychic and/or corrupting influences. However, in light of the catastrophic results of meddling with other Xenotech the Imperium is understandably leery of researching Tau tech willy-nilly, without careful, deliberate procedures and without extensive safeguards.
The Imperium as a whole has learned to forbid inquiry. It is rabidly risk-avoidant, and with good reason; beyond merely destroying you, Xenotech can corrupt you into the 'enemy within'. The existence of the Inquisition, Exterminatus and the Mechanicum's own strictures against the heresies of experimentation and curiosity are clear evidence of this.
There are sanctioned investigators who study Xenotech in order to develop countermeasures. They move at a snail's pace, with elaborate safeguards, constant oversight and a watchful eye to prevent deviation from good, clean human influences. They are more interested in developing human tech counters to xeno threats, such as armor and shields attuned to resist enemy weapons (or human weapons attuned to penetrate xeno defenses), jammers to block enemy communication and the like. They do not try to develop a human pulse rifle or Shuriken catapult, because those alien weapons are disgustingly un-human and dangerous.
Do some tech priests, inquisitors, rogue traders, etc. take risks and study Xenotech? Sure, but it's heresy, punishable by extermination. Just studying Xenotech is dangerous, literally, to body and soul and sanity.
Most 40k fans just don't get that fear of Xenotech isn't just a sign of how myopic, insular and stubbornly human-centric the IOM is (though all that is certainly true). In the 40k millieu Xenotech really CAN twist your body and soul into something inhuman, irredeemably evil and stark, raving mad. There really ARE Secrets Man Was Not Meant To Know.
Few points, Volkatie weaponry is really nothing like pulse tech. Vokite is more similar to ion weaponry than anything. Although, IIRC, they stopped equipping SMs with them sometime after(?) the great crusade because they couldn't keep up with demand..
Volkite weapons were fazed out during the Great Crusade because of their difficulty of manufacture. And, while Volkite weapons aren't really an equivalent of Pulse Rifles (poor comparison, I know), but humans already have significantly more powerful Plasma weaponry, it would be a simple matter to simply utilize smaller amounts of matter in said plasma weaponry, and thus have less Plasma
Source on harder to manufacture or less understood? It's plasma tech, it's pretty well understood. And I seriously doubt the tau invest more in their FWs than the imperium does in SMs.
Are you seriously going to argue this point? Lasguns are the easiest weapons to manufacture ever, that's the whole premise of the lasgun.
Camo-cloaks really aren't like tau stealth tech at all. Camo-cloaks are active camo, tau stealth tech has light being bend around you, complete invisibility, with jammers playing havoc with the full EM spectrum, blocking almost all detection. They are similar in purpose, but not how they work. Not really a direct comparison at all. I'm unsure if tau have any active camo, at the very least it was never mentioned. Although they probably do, I mean we are working on it now.
You must have misread my post. People said that Imperials did not have stealth technology, while the Tau did. I countered that by using Camo-Cloaks as an example of Imperial stealth tech.
Tau warp tech is gak, and will always be gak, but that's more a physiological problem than a technology one. Without navigators, the imperium is in the same place as the tau, warp-wise.
This has never been an issue, why did you even bring it up?
As far as walkers go, they are about evenly matched, although the imperium does tend to go the bigger is better route (I'm convinced that the emperor is was compensating for something ). Although tau stuff is certainly more common, relatively speaking, as there a few SMs, and even fewer SM walkers. The real comparison would be walkers like sentinels, but they serve a different purpose, so are not really comparable.
Imperial exoskeletons are way more advanced than that of the Tau. They have exoskeletons for virtually every every situation. Let's see here:
- Power Armour: Highly versatile, great for combat in hostile environments, protection from 99% of small arms fire, including some Armor Piercing weapons. You can even use this stuff as a Space Suit or for Void Ship maintenance. AdMech idiocy being what it is, they opted against adding shoulder-mounted Plasma guns or rocket launchers or Iron Man missile launcher wrists. Because grimderp.
- Plasma Reactor Maintenance Suits: These are exoskeletons used to go inside of the reactor cores of Plasma Reactors. These are basically the original Terminator suits
- Tactical Dreadnought Armour: A form of the plasma reactor suit that was adapted for warfare. It can literally withstand temperatures that are literally impossible to be withstood by any kind of real life metallic alloys. This thing should be impenetrable by anything but Necron Gauss weapons, because those deconstruct the very molecules of the armour. Not only that, Imperial Power Armour technology is incorporated, as well, and it significantly enhances strength of the wearer, and ( (if Fulgrim is to be believed)still allows Space Marines to be extremely agile while wearing them. The Imperium being as idiotic as it is, they decided not to give it some awesome shoulder-mounted Plasma Cannons and arm-Assault-Cannons, because grimderp. Stoopid GW...
- Dreadnought Armour: A tank with legs. This is basically just intended to make those poor quadriplegic Space Marines feel less useless. Everything a dreadnought does, a tank or a Knight Titan can do better. This is just a Space Marine wheelchair with armour plating and explosives.
- Exo-Armour: Power Armour for midgets. This was designed for use in underground tunnels.
- Centurion Armour: fills the niche between TDA and Dreadnoughts. This is the armour intended to make Space Marines into walking tanks. Basically, Space Marines are bigger, badder, with bigger guns. Like, this should be able to allow Space Marines to dual-wield Assault Cannons while firing shoulder-mounted Plasma Cannons and wrist-mounted Storm Bolters. But it doesn't, because GW writers are idiots, and don't comprehend the fact that these are tanks with multiple limbs. Seriously. There should be dozens of guns on these things. WHY DO THEY ONLY USE 2 GUNS ON A PLATFORM THAT COULD FIT DOZENS OF THEM. JUST. WHY?!?!?!
- Dragon Scale Power Armour: The only Power Armour that the AdMech actually decided to pimp out. It's powered by the wearer's own implants; making it usable only by members of the Martian priesthood, or people with a gak-ton of expensive-ass implants. Of course, it's used exclusively used by ordinary humans, so it's not nearly as powerful or protective as any of the afore-mentioned types of Power Armour.
LethalShade wrote: Well, Volkite weaponry is from the Dark Age of Technology/Age of Strife, as are many Imperial OPplznerf weapons.
Imperial Stealth technology is inferior to Tau one, because you actually need to wear the cloak, which restricts your movements.
Tau battlesuits are way more agile than Dreadnoughts.
Tau Battlesuits don't even come close to being on par with Dreadnoughts. That's like comparing an APC to a Tank.
Not really. Not at all in fact. In fact, battlesuits can pack some pretty powerful weaponry, and the broadsides trades jetpacks to be just as tough as dreadnoughts, with guns that put some actual tank weapons to shame (at least in fluff, the HRR is pretty gak in TT). But without that whole "nearly dead SM" thing. And then you look at stuff like XV9s, XV10s, ect.
Spoiler:
After brushing up on my Battlesuit fluff, I've realized that every model of Battlesuit is incredibly specialized.
-Crisis suits are only as protective as Power Armour, as they only protect against small arms fire, much like Imperial Power Armour does (Battlesuits). They're meant to be the Tau all-around Battlesuit, but aren't nearly as agile and versatile as standard Space Marine Power Armour (which is less bulky,
-The Stealth Battlesuit utilizes holographs to make them harder to see. This could easily be done by Imperials, they just don't do it, because Camo-Cloaks already get the job done quite well. They really do the same thing as Camo Cloaks, just using a different means of doing so.
- Broadside Battlesuits are just Crisis Suits with more heavy weapons. That means that they are no more protective than Space Marine Power Armour. A bit like a glass cannon, really.
- Hazard Close Support Armour: It's basically a Broadside with better armour. This is comparable with Space Marine Centurion Armour. It features a reinforcorced chassis, so less of a glass cannon, and short-ranged, really powerful weaponry.
- Riptide: The most expensive walker of all time. It's basically just a flying Terminator (from what I've read on various websites).
- R'vana: Fast Dreadnoughts. Plain and simple.
- Vanguard Void Battlesuit: Battlesuit meant for Void infantry combat. Yet more evidence of the Crisis Battlesuit's lack of versatility (in comparison to Imperial Power Armour)
- Stormsurge: A walking cannon. With power issues that no Imperial walker
-Ta-unar Supremacy Armour: A really slow Tau version of a Titan. It's got the biggest guns they can fit on a mobile land vehicle, with the best protection they can give a mobile land vehicle. It's the best the Tau can do, and it's basically just a really slow Warhound Titan. Seriously. This is the best that the Tau can do. Even the Warhound, the literal weakest of Imperial Battletitans, isn't weaker than this. It's weapons are basically just Warhound weapons that use different technologies to accomplish the same results, only with less versatility.
dusara217 wrote: WHY DO THEY ONLY USE 2 GUNS ON A PLATFORM THAT COULD FIT DOZENS OF THEM.
Because there's more to weapon choices than "how many square inches does this have, and how many guns can I bolt to them". Power consumption, ammo storage, etc, are much more relevant than how many guns a unit is physically capable of carrying.
-Crisis suits are only as protective as Power Armour, as they only protect against small arms fire, much like Imperial Power Armour does (Battlesuits). They're meant to be the Tau all-around Battlesuit, but aren't nearly as agile and versatile as standard Space Marine Power Armour (which is less bulky,
Remember the part where they can fly? How exactly is that less agile than power armor? And where did you get the idea that they're no more durable than power armor? Compared to a space marine the crisis suit is faster, vastly more mobile, more durable, and armed with much more powerful weapons.
-The Stealth Battlesuit utilizes holographs to make them harder to see. This could easily be done by Imperials, they just don't do it, because Camo-Cloaks already get the job done quite well. They really do the same thing as Camo Cloaks, just using a different means of doing so.
Stealth fields make the unit invisible. As in, there's a Remora done hovering nearby aiming its guns at you, and you'll never know until you're already dead. Camo cloaks just make you harder to spot, and only if you're stationary and hiding under the cloak.
Broadside Battlesuits are just Crisis Suits with more heavy weapons. That means that they are no more protective than Space Marine Power Armour. A bit like a glass cannon, really.
Broadsides are more durable than crisis suits. The extra armor is part of why they don't have jetpacks.
- Riptide: The most expensive walker of all time. It's basically just a flying Terminator (from what I've read on various websites).
...
No, it's way bigger and tougher than a terminator, and carries a much more powerful weapon.
- Vanguard Void Battlesuit: Battlesuit meant for Void infantry combat. Yet more evidence of the Crisis Battlesuit's lack of versatility (in comparison to Imperial Power Armour)
It's no such thing. Standard power armor is worthless for void combat because it has no maneuvering thrusters. So if you want to fight effectively in space (and not just places where you can't breathe the air) you need power armor variants.
-Ta-unar Supremacy Armour: A really slow Tau version of a Titan. It's got the biggest guns they can fit on a mobile land vehicle, with the best protection they can give a mobile land vehicle. It's the best the Tau can do, and it's basically just a really slow Warhound Titan. Seriously. This is the best that the Tau can do. Even the Warhound, the literal weakest of Imperial Battletitans, isn't weaker than this. It's weapons are basically just Warhound weapons that use different technologies to accomplish the same results, only with less versatility.
Ever hear of the Manta? The Tau don't waste resources on bigger titans, they just bring down spacecraft from orbit and kill you with them. You really shouldn't be praising the Imperium's idiotic obsession with making giant walking cathedrals.
1. There's nothing Tau has that Imperium doesn't already have access to, or have superior version of.
2. Mechanicus is constantly researching and applying xenos tech to Imperial use. It's just that a lot of that tech never leaves the Mechanicus because of constant politicizing and power struggle. Remember that Mechanicus is it's own organization, not subsidiary of the Imperium.
3. Imperium's supply demands are way beyond what Tau could even hope to produce. If Imperium was the size of Tau Empire, you can bet they would have better tech in use. It's also not cheap to put up new production lines in the scale that Imperium requires, that's why most of the stuff is mainly patterns and modifications to existing models.
Co'tor Shas wrote:IIRC, they stopped equipping SMs with them sometime after(?) the great crusade because they couldn't keep up with demand. So they switched to bolt weaponry, which was originally designed so that regular humans could hit with equal power to stuff like orks.
They switched to bolt weapons because volkite weapons were worse at penetrating armor. Bolt weapons were also tactically more flexible and easier/cheaper to produce.
Finlandiaperkele wrote: 1. There's nothing Tau has that Imperium doesn't already have access to, or have superior version of.
Safe warp travel and AI would be two obvious counter-examples. Plus, most of the Tau technology that the Imperium does have access to is available in name only. There might be some Imperial version of a crisis suit locked away in storage somewhere, but it's not going to be available for anyone to use.
Vankraken wrote: The problem isn't that they can't reverse engineer the tech .
Not true. For six THOUSAND years, no one was able to figure out how to solder a radar and some SAMs onto the top of a Rhino.
We've been over this. You were wrong about Imperial engineering before, and you're wrong about Imperial Engineering now.
No, I wasn't. It's straight out of the last Marine codex. They couldn't invent it and had to find an STC for it.
You clearly don't understand how Imperial technology works. Its not as simple as welding on a SAM rack and a radar onto a Rhino. If you just took a random piece of radar technology and a random SAM system and did that you are likely to offend the Rhino's machine spirit causing the new invention to not work at all, explode when you try to fire it or even have it turn on it's creators. Innovations in the Imperium have to be carefully considered by the AdMech otherwise it could lead to disastrous results. If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
Remember the part where they can fly? How exactly is that less agile than power armor? And where did you get the idea that they're no more durable than power armor? Compared to a space marine the crisis suit is faster, vastly more mobile, more durable, and armed with much more powerful weapons.
Imperial Power Armor is also much smaller and offers the same amount of protection.
Power Armor can also "fly" with the addition of a Jump Jet, which appears to be faster than a jet pack.
That does not make the PA "better" per se, but wouldn't that mean that the Power Armor is more advanced, as it provides amble amounts of protection for its relative size, as well as increasing the user's strength?
The strength boost provided by power armour is neglible compared to the strength boost provided by Crisis armour, though.
Ultimately they're two different evolutions of the same concept - the Tau version is, ironically, closer to the book version of the Starship Troopers power armour that started the whole thing.
Furyou Miko wrote: The strength boost provided by power armour is neglible compared to the strength boost provided by Crisis armour, though.
Ultimately they're two different evolutions of the same concept - the Tau version is, ironically, closer to the book version of the Starship Troopers power armour that started the whole thing.
Well yeah, crisis suits are bigger It would be interesting to see the ratio between weight and strength provided.
Yep, Crisis Suits are more like the MI than the Space Marines.
No nuke launchers though.
Finlandiaperkele wrote: 1. There's nothing Tau has that Imperium doesn't already have access to, or have superior version of.
Safe warp travel and AI would be two obvious counter-examples. Plus, most of the Tau technology that the Imperium does have access to is available in name only. There might be some Imperial version of a crisis suit locked away in storage somewhere, but it's not going to be available for anyone to use.
Tau warp travel is safe only because they don't fully enter the warp. This makes their travel time slower, and distances shorter. Imperium can fully enter the warp, giving them much more distance and speed. IIRC, Imperial ships are also able to do this. Also, most of the time Imperial warp transportation is perfectly safe.
Imperium has no need for fully sentient AI, also there's that little thing called Men of Iron that still haunts humanity. Imperium uses logic engines and machine spirit to do the same thing. Also there's the reprogrammed brains thing as well.
Crisis suit is just more cumbersome version of Astartes PA, so there's no need for that. I highly doubt that someone could use it in the first place, due to differences in human/tau physiology.
This thread is pretty much boiling down to "i like this faction more, so they win" :s
Has anyone read the 3rd edition tau codex? it has quite a bit of information on tau technology AND it is presented from an imperial point of view. There is even a letter from a tech priest where he admits that tau technology "matches and occasionally exceeds imperial manufacture.." but he quickly justifies it with "It displays none of the proper obesiances to the holy spirit of the machine god" He then goes on to recommend that tau technology is immediately destroyed if captured. Perhaps this is the reason for the lack of tau reverse engineering? Maybe they present the most danger to tech heresy because their tech works in the most logical way to humans, without the speudoscience of the necrons and the psychic do-hickery of the eldar.
Also, just to throw it in,
Crisis armour DOES afford more protection than power armour. However the standard XV8 model does not contain the life support facilities that I believe is present in power armour, although the coldstar and the vanguard (which does exist, it is a battlesuit given to teams exploring space hulks) Do. All suits do have a more advanced sensor/scanner suite than astartes power armour however.
Broadsides armour removes the jetpack due to heavier armour and stabilisers being mounted.
Bobug wrote: This thread is pretty much boiling down to "i like this faction more, so they win" :s
This is pretty much point of WH40k. There's no "official" canon, just pieces and everyone creates their own "official" version of canon.
Bobug wrote: Has anyone read the 3rd edition tau codex? it has quite a bit of information on tau technology AND it is presented from an imperial point of view. There is even a letter from a tech priest where he admits that tau technology "matches and occasionally exceeds imperial manufacture.." but he quickly justifies it with "It displays none of the proper obesiances to the holy spirit of the machine god" He then goes on to recommend that tau technology is immediately destroyed if captured. Perhaps this is the reason for the lack of tau reverse engineering? Maybe they present the most danger to tech heresy because their tech works in the most logical way to humans, without the speudoscience of the necrons and the psychic do-hickery of the eldar.
Just pointing out that it depends on Tech Priest, as some are more liberal than others. Some view tech other than STC completely heretical, whereas some convert xenos tech to Imperial use (This may also be due to the lack of official stance from GW writers).
Bobug wrote: Crisis armour DOES afford more protection than power armour. However the standard XV8 model does not contain the life support facilities that I believe is present in power armour, although the coldstar and the vanguard (which does exist, it is a battlesuit given to teams exploring space hulks) Do. All suits do have a more advanced sensor/scanner suite than astartes power armour however.
I believe the statement that Crisis battlesuits offer the same amount of protection as Power Armor was derived from the fact that both confer a 3+ armor save. While I am not generally fond of using game stats in terms of fluff (PA doesn't randomly fail one time out of three), I would say that weapon and armor values are good for making rough comparisons between wargear.
You clearly don't understand how Imperial technology works. Its not as simple as welding on a SAM rack and a radar onto a Rhino. If you just took a random piece of radar technology and a random SAM system and did that you are likely to offend the Rhino's machine spirit causing the new invention to not work at all, explode when you try to fire it or even have it turn on it's creators. Innovations in the Imperium have to be carefully considered by the AdMech otherwise it could lead to disastrous results. If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
Not really. 99% of all mentions of tech spirits in Imperial fluff is a tongue-in-cheek dig at the deeply superstitious nature of the 40k humans.
The situation is just confusing as there are actual "tech spirits" mentioned like the controlling mechanism of the land-raider, which can actually operate semi-autonomously for periods. But most Imperial malfunctions are attributed to angered spirits just like how midieval humans thought evil spirits caused horrible things to happen, from broken swords to sickness.
The whole issue is a fault of the writers using 'machine/tech' spirits interchangeably for multiple things for 35 years.
EmpNortonII wrote: No, I wasn't. It's straight out of the last Marine codex. They couldn't invent it and had to find an STC for it.
Land Raider Crusader. No, wait.
Land Raider Aries. How does that fit into your neat little fiction?
Made from spare Vindicator parts that may have been designed with cross-compatibility in mind to begin with? It shows where the boundary is between "what the most competent engineers in the Imperium can do under pressure" and "this is too hard for the Imperium to ever manage without an STC (Whirlwind Hunter)."
You clearly don't understand how Imperial technology works. Its not as simple as welding on a SAM rack and a radar onto a Rhino. If you just took a random piece of radar technology and a random SAM system and did that you are likely to offend the Rhino's machine spirit causing the new invention to not work at all, explode when you try to fire it or even have it turn on it's creators. Innovations in the Imperium have to be carefully considered by the AdMech otherwise it could lead to disastrous results. If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
Not really. 99% of all mentions of tech spirits in Imperial fluff is a tongue-in-cheek dig at the deeply superstitious nature of the 40k humans.
The situation is just confusing as there are actual "tech spirits" mentioned like the controlling mechanism of the land-raider, which can actually operate semi-autonomously for periods. But most Imperial malfunctions are attributed to angered spirits just like how midieval humans thought evil spirits caused horrible things to happen, from broken swords to sickness.
The whole issue is a fault of the writers using 'machine/tech' spirits interchangeably for multiple things for 35 years.
What if...everything does have a tech spirit? Don't they just mass produce everything based on a STC, without really knowing what they contain? Perhaps the simple lasgun does have some rudimentary AI, that assists with targeting, heating ect.
Or it could be that the techpriests simply don't know what has a techspirit and what doesn't, so to play it safe they treat everything as though it has a spirit.
I think its more like taking the inscription of Viking futhark runes into weapons to please the weapon's 'spirit' into doing what you need in battle, but applying them to an Abrams tank on the skirting/engine/cannon for the desired results. Not because it works mechanically, but because millenia of dogmatic belief makes you fear what might happen the one time you DON'T do it.
You clearly don't understand how Imperial technology works. Its not as simple as welding on a SAM rack and a radar onto a Rhino. If you just took a random piece of radar technology and a random SAM system and did that you are likely to offend the Rhino's machine spirit causing the new invention to not work at all, explode when you try to fire it or even have it turn on it's creators. Innovations in the Imperium have to be carefully considered by the AdMech otherwise it could lead to disastrous results. If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
Not really. 99% of all mentions of tech spirits in Imperial fluff is a tongue-in-cheek dig at the deeply superstitious nature of the 40k humans.
The situation is just confusing as there are actual "tech spirits" mentioned like the controlling mechanism of the land-raider, which can actually operate semi-autonomously for periods. But most Imperial malfunctions are attributed to angered spirits just like how midieval humans thought evil spirits caused horrible things to happen, from broken swords to sickness.
The whole issue is a fault of the writers using 'machine/tech' spirits interchangeably for multiple things for 35 years.
Alright, but my point still stands. You can't just add machine parts together with Imperial tech willy nilly. It could end really badly if you tried to do that which is why the AdMech discourages such things.
EmpNortonII wrote: No, I wasn't. It's straight out of the last Marine codex. They couldn't invent it and had to find an STC for it.
Land Raider Crusader. No, wait.
Land Raider Aries. How does that fit into your neat little fiction?
Made from spare Vindicator parts that may have been designed with cross-compatibility in mind to begin with? It shows where the boundary is between "what the most competent engineers in the Imperium can do under pressure" and "this is too hard for the Imperium to ever manage without an STC (Whirlwind Hunter)."
The Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Macharius are still counterexamples even if that was true.
dusara217 wrote: WHY DO THEY ONLY USE 2 GUNS ON A PLATFORM THAT COULD FIT DOZENS OF THEM.
Because there's more to weapon choices than "how many square inches does this have, and how many guns can I bolt to them". Power consumption, ammo storage, etc, are much more relevant than how many guns a unit is physically capable of carrying.
Right, because sticking a few shoulder-mounted missile launchers onto (a la Tau Battlesuit) would really cause the entire machine to malfunction and murder its wearer.
-Crisis suits are only as protective as Power Armour, as they only protect against small arms fire, much like Imperial Power Armour does (Battlesuits). They're meant to be the Tau all-around Battlesuit, but aren't nearly as agile and versatile as standard Space Marine Power Armour (which is less bulky,
Remember the part where they can fly? How exactly is that less agile than power armor? And where did you get the idea that they're no more durable than power armor? Compared to a space marine the crisis suit is faster, vastly more mobile, more durable, and armed with much more powerful weapons.
I don't think that you understand the concept of "agility". Here, let me explain it to you. It's akin to being deft, nimble, well-coordinated. The Crisis Battlesuit is too bulky and cumbersome to be as agile as Imperial Power Armour, though it does provide better strength. It also is no better at flying as Power Armour, as Power Armour was designed to have attachments such as jump packs, or maneuvering jets for EVA space walks. Also, ]Crisis Battlesuits.
Although the armour provides superior protection against most small arms, it is no defence against heavier weapons such assault cannons and lascannons which penetrate right through.[4]
It's cited, which means that it's probably true.
-The Stealth Battlesuit utilizes holographs to make them harder to see. This could easily be done by Imperials, they just don't do it, because Camo-Cloaks already get the job done quite well. They really do the same thing as Camo Cloaks, just using a different means of doing so.
Stealth fields make the unit invisible. As in, there's a Remora done hovering nearby aiming its guns at you, and you'll never know until you're already dead. Camo cloaks just make you harder to spot, and only if you're stationary and hiding under the cloak.
As with other battlesuits the XV15 incorporates multi-spectrum sensors and recoil absorption technology, but in addition it is also equipped with a jetpack and stealth field generator, a holographic disruption field making the suit harder to spot.
Broadside Battlesuits are just Crisis Suits with more heavy weapons. That means that they are no more protective than Space Marine Power Armour. A bit like a glass cannon, really.
The suit's integrated holographic disruption field achieves its effects through a number of disruptor emitter nodes arrayed all over the Battlesuit's armour.
Camo-cloaks are hooded cloaks composed of a mesh backing, woven with thousands of ribbons of colour shifting and light-absorbing material,[3] weaved for its durability and ability to help hide the wearer. The Camo Cloak is coated with an absorbent material called Cameoline which takes on the colouration of the surroundings giving, the wearer a great deal of individual concealment and when used by elite stealth experts such as Chief Scout Sergeant Oan Mkoll can give the wearer near perfect concealment.[1]
Why did I use the Wiki? Because it may be unreliable, but it's unlikely that both Lexicanum and Wiki will concur and still be wrong. If they are, then prove them wrong. Where's your source?
Spoiler:
Broadsides are more durable than crisis suits. The extra armor is part of why they don't have jetpacks.
I re-read up on that, and it's more like Terminator Armour than Power Armour, in terms of protection (surviving autocannons, and the like). My mistake.
- Riptide: The most expensive walker of all time. It's basically just a flying Terminator (from what I've read on various websites).
...
No, it's way bigger and tougher than a terminator, and carries a much more powerful weapon.
Really? Because it's stats are the same (tabletop wise), and both virtually identical feats under their belt (such as surviving direct armour-piercing missile blasts or Plasma shots to the face). If I'm wrong, then prove it. Stop making wild assertions without backing them up. What's your source?
- Vanguard Void Battlesuit: Battlesuit meant for Void infantry combat. Yet more evidence of the Crisis Battlesuit's lack of versatility (in comparison to Imperial Power Armour)
It's no such thing. Standard power armor is worthless for void combat because it has no maneuvering thrusters. So if you want to fight effectively in space (and not just places where you can't breathe the air) you need power armor variants.
Yeah, right, because Power Armour definitely wasn't designed with Mag-Lock Boots, hours of oxygen, power sources for jump packs/ maneuverability jets at all. Oh, wait, yes it was!
-Ta-unar Supremacy Armour: A really slow Tau version of a Titan. It's got the biggest guns they can fit on a mobile land vehicle, with the best protection they can give a mobile land vehicle. It's the best the Tau can do, and it's basically just a really slow Warhound Titan. Seriously. This is the best that the Tau can do. Even the Warhound, the literal weakest of Imperial Battletitans, isn't weaker than this. It's weapons are basically just Warhound weapons that use different technologies to accomplish the same results, only with less versatility.
Ever hear of the Manta? The Tau don't waste resources on bigger titans, they just bring down spacecraft from orbit and kill you with them. You really shouldn't be praising the Imperium's idiotic obsession with making giant walking cathedrals.
Few points, Volkatie weaponry is really nothing like pulse tech. Vokite is more similar to ion weaponry than anything. Although, IIRC, they stopped equipping SMs with them sometime after(?) the great crusade because they couldn't keep up with demand..
Volkite weapons were fazed out during the Great Crusade because of their difficulty of manufacture. And, while Volkite weapons aren't really an equivalent of Pulse Rifles (poor comparison, I know), but humans already have significantly more powerful Plasma weaponry, it would be a simple matter to simply utilize smaller amounts of matter in said plasma weaponry, and thus have less Plasma
Oh, yes, they definitly have more powerful stuff, there is not denying that. The imperiums maximum tech level is far beyond the tau's. I just thought it wasn't a really good comparison.
Source on harder to manufacture or less understood? It's plasma tech, it's pretty well understood. And I seriously doubt the tau invest more in their FWs than the imperium does in SMs.
Are you seriously going to argue this point? Lasguns are the easiest weapons to manufacture ever, that's the whole premise of the lasgun.
you said bolt weapons, not lasguns. A mis-type on your part?
Camo-cloaks really aren't like tau stealth tech at all. Camo-cloaks are active camo, tau stealth tech has light being bend around you, complete invisibility, with jammers playing havoc with the full EM spectrum, blocking almost all detection. They are similar in purpose, but not how they work. Not really a direct comparison at all. I'm unsure if tau have any active camo, at the very least it was never mentioned. Although they probably do, I mean we are working on it now.
You must have misread my post. People said that Imperials did not have stealth technology, while the Tau did. I countered that by using Camo-Cloaks as an example of Imperial stealth tech.
Ah, my mistake
Tau warp tech is gak, and will always be gak, but that's more a physiological problem than a technology one. Without navigators, the imperium is in the same place as the tau, warp-wise.
This has never been an issue, why did you even bring it up?
Well, you did, essentialy. I was just responding.
As far as walkers go, they are about evenly matched, although the imperium does tend to go the bigger is better route (I'm convinced that the emperor is was compensating for something ). Although tau stuff is certainly more common, relatively speaking, as there a few SMs, and even fewer SM walkers. The real comparison would be walkers like sentinels, but they serve a different purpose, so are not really comparable.
Imperial exoskeletons are way more advanced than that of the Tau. They have exoskeletons for virtually every every situation. Let's see here:
- Power Armour: Highly versatile, great for combat in hostile environments, protection from 99% of small arms fire, including some Armor Piercing weapons. You can even use this stuff as a Space Suit or for Void Ship maintenance. AdMech idiocy being what it is, they opted against adding shoulder-mounted Plasma guns or rocket launchers or Iron Man missile launcher wrists. Because grimderp.
- Plasma Reactor Maintenance Suits: These are exoskeletons used to go inside of the reactor cores of Plasma Reactors. These are basically the original Terminator suits
- Tactical Dreadnought Armour: A form of the plasma reactor suit that was adapted for warfare. It can literally withstand temperatures that are literally impossible to be withstood by any kind of real life metallic alloys. This thing should be impenetrable by anything but Necron Gauss weapons, because those deconstruct the very molecules of the armour. Not only that, Imperial Power Armour technology is incorporated, as well, and it significantly enhances strength of the wearer, and ( (if Fulgrim is to be believed)still allows Space Marines to be extremely agile while wearing them. The Imperium being as idiotic as it is, they decided not to give it some awesome shoulder-mounted Plasma Cannons and arm-Assault-Cannons, because grimderp. Stoopid GW...
- Dreadnought Armour: A tank with legs. This is basically just intended to make those poor quadriplegic Space Marines feel less useless. Everything a dreadnought does, a tank or a Knight Titan can do better. This is just a Space Marine wheelchair with armour plating and explosives.
- Exo-Armour: Power Armour for midgets. This was designed for use in underground tunnels.
- Centurion Armour: fills the niche between TDA and Dreadnoughts. This is the armour intended to make Space Marines into walking tanks. Basically, Space Marines are bigger, badder, with bigger guns. Like, this should be able to allow Space Marines to dual-wield Assault Cannons while firing shoulder-mounted Plasma Cannons and wrist-mounted Storm Bolters. But it doesn't, because GW writers are idiots, and don't comprehend the fact that these are tanks with multiple limbs. Seriously. There should be dozens of guns on these things. WHY DO THEY ONLY USE 2 GUNS ON A PLATFORM THAT COULD FIT DOZENS OF THEM. JUST. WHY?!?!?!
- Dragon Scale Power Armour: The only Power Armour that the AdMech actually decided to pimp out. It's powered by the wearer's own implants; making it usable only by members of the Martian priesthood, or people with a gak-ton of expensive-ass implants. Of course, it's used exclusively used by ordinary humans, so it's not nearly as powerful or protective as any of the afore-mentioned types of Power Armour.
LethalShade wrote: Well, Volkite weaponry is from the Dark Age of Technology/Age of Strife, as are many Imperial OPplznerf weapons.
Imperial Stealth technology is inferior to Tau one, because you actually need to wear the cloak, which restricts your movements.
Tau battlesuits are way more agile than Dreadnoughts.
Tau Battlesuits don't even come close to being on par with Dreadnoughts. That's like comparing an APC to a Tank.
Not really. Not at all in fact. In fact, battlesuits can pack some pretty powerful weaponry, and the broadsides trades jetpacks to be just as tough as dreadnoughts, with guns that put some actual tank weapons to shame (at least in fluff, the HRR is pretty gak in TT). But without that whole "nearly dead SM" thing. And then you look at stuff like XV9s, XV10s, ect.
Spoiler:
After brushing up on my Battlesuit fluff, I've realized that every model of Battlesuit is incredibly specialized.
-Crisis suits are only as protective as Power Armour, as they only protect against small arms fire, much like Imperial Power Armour does (Battlesuits). They're meant to be the Tau all-around Battlesuit, but aren't nearly as agile and versatile as standard Space Marine
Power Armour (which is less bulky,
Similar, but a bit differnt. They it's less powered armor, and more mini-meh, directly linked into the piolet. Plus jetpacks will make them more agile then SMs, if not as reactive.
-The Stealth Battlesuit utilizes holographs to make them harder to see. This could easily be done by Imperials, they just don't do it, because Camo-Cloaks already get the job done quite well. They really do the same thing as Camo Cloaks, just using a different means of doing so.
It's a bit more than hologaphs, but it's the general idea. The main thing is that imperials do not have some really availablr now. At least as far as the fluff I have read is conserned. They will heve definitly ha is at some powint (STCs and what have you), but I doubt they have the ability to make it now.
- Broadside Battlesuits are just Crisis Suits with more heavy weapons. That means that they are no more protective than Space Marine Power Armour. A bit like a glass cannon, really.
No, ther armour is as protective as terminator armour. They gave it an extra layer of plating because it coult not avoid shots like the crisis
- Hazard Close Support Armour: It's basically a Broadside with better armour. This is comparable with Space Marine Centurion Armour. It features a reinforcorced chassis, so less of a glass cannon, and short-ranged, really powerful weaponry.
ehh, sort of? IT's tougher, but doesn't have as good armour.
- Riptide: The most expensive walker of all time. It's basically just a flying Terminator (from what I've read on various websites).
actually, quite a bit more. This things is like a small knight. Not quit as tough, but that's the general idea. They have been known to tank deathstrike missiles.
- R'vana: Fast Dreadnoughts. Plain and simple.
- Vanguard Void Battlesuit: Battlesuit meant for Void infantry combat. Yet more evidence of the Crisis Battlesuit's lack of versatility (in comparison to Imperial Power Armour)
Not reall, you also have o bring up the new crisis verinent built for space, the coldstar. The only real differnce is that they had to instal 360 thrusters so it could still use it's jetpack. the vangaurd is designed for spacehulks, it's basicaly a tau terminaor is a metric butt-load of guns
- Stormsurge: A walking cannon. With power issues that no Imperial walker
power issues. I'm unsure, but I don't think so. The only one that seems to have any is the ruptide, and that's only when you overcharge it.
-Ta-unar Supremacy Armour: A really slow Tau version of a Titan. It's got the biggest guns they can fit on a mobile land vehicle, with the best protection they can give a mobile land vehicle. It's the best the Tau can do, and it's basically just a really slow Warhound Titan. Seriously. This is the best that the Tau can do. Even the Warhound, the literal weakest of Imperial Battletitans, isn't weaker than this. It's weapons are basically just Warhound weapons that use different technologies to accomplish the same results, only with less versatility.
This I will agree. But, at least for a long time, it was a matter of the tau code of war. Tau didn't make big walkers, even the riptide and it's variants were a stretch, and this was completely out of the blue. We may, eventually see larger, but at this point the tau'nar is very new both in reality and the fluff. It's them essentualy testing if big walkers will work for them
@Co'tor Shas: Terminators can literally survive the heat of a sun. The chassis it's based upon was designed to be impervious to Plasma. Basically, TDA and Riptides have the same stats tabletop-wise, and have equivalent feats in the lore. As for Stormsurges: Yes, I was mistaken about that one. I misread an articles or two. Turns out it's just got a couple of reactors that take an age and a half to recharge or power up. Also, I compared both Boltguns and Lasguns to Pulse Weapons.
dusara217 wrote: @Co'tor Shas: Terminators can literally survive the heat of a sun. The chassis it's based upon was designed to be impervious to Plasma. Basically, TDA and Riptides have the same stats tabletop-wise, and have equivalent feats in the lore.
As for Stormsurges: Yes, I was mistaken about that one. I misread an articles or two. Turns out it's just got a couple of reactors that take an age and a half to recharge or power up.
Also, I compared both Boltguns and Lasguns to Pulse Weapons.
Well, armour wise TDA and Riptides are about the same. Everywhere else. no. It takes a hell of a lot more to bring down riptides (as most of it is mechnaical, unlike TDA where you still have only a space marine underneath. And riptides have a pretty devastating arsenal.
For storm surges, still, where are you getting this info? I don't think we even had the WD yet, do we?
Ah, I only say the boltgun. I'd say produciton wise they are between lasguns (dirt cheap and easy to make) and boltguns (relics who can have histories dating back thousands of years), but that could be said of most weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm going to say this again, as I have said a thouand times at this point, the imperium has a far higher base tech than the tau, but a lower median tech level.
TheCustomLime wrote: You clearly don't understand how Imperial technology works. Its not as simple as welding on a SAM rack and a radar onto a Rhino. If you just took a random piece of radar technology and a random SAM system and did that you are likely to offend the Rhino's machine spirit causing the new invention to not work at all, explode when you try to fire it or even have it turn on it's creators.
Which is a pretty clear concession that Imperial technology sucks.
If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
If that's the best examples you can provide then I think we've finished this debate. The Macharius took centuries of work to get a tank that would be obsolete by WWII standards. The Predator Annihilator is just a regular Predator with its gun swapped for lascannons. The LR Crusader/Redeemer are just regular Land Raiders with different guns in their sponson mounts. The Razorback is just a Rhino with a sentry gun bolted to the roof (quite literally, if you use the FW Razorback turrets). The fact that these are considered major accomplishments by Imperial standards pretty strongly suggests that the Imperium isn't capable of doing anything more difficult.
dusara217 wrote: Right, because sticking a few shoulder-mounted missile launchers onto (a la Tau Battlesuit) would really cause the entire machine to malfunction and murder its wearer.
How much do those launchers weigh? How much ammunition can you carry for them? Will a bulky box of missiles restrict the armor's movement? Is it a good idea to put all of your eggs in one basket, or should those missiles be given to a different unit instead? Again, there's much more to how you choose weapons than "how many square inches of space does this have", and there's a reason why real-world tanks don't have weapons bolted to every possible surface.
{stealth tech} Where's your source?
The Aeronautica Imperialis book where the Remora stealth drone was introduced mentions them being invisible in clear skies. No terrain to hide behind or blend in with, and you still can't see the Remora. And, unlike camo cloaks, Tau stealth fields don't require any skill from the user to blend in with their surroundings. You simply switch it on, and suddenly your unit is invisible.
Really? Because it's stats are the same (tabletop wise), and both virtually identical feats under their belt (such as surviving direct armour-piercing missile blasts or Plasma shots to the face). If I'm wrong, then prove it. Stop making wild assertions without backing them up. What's your source?
...
Have you even read the Tau codex? The Riptide is a T6 MC, the terminator is a one-wound infantry model with a better armor save. If you're seriously disputing the fact that Riptides are tougher than terminators then I don't really know what to say.
Yeah, right, because Power Armour definitely wasn't designed with Mag-Lock Boots, hours of oxygen, power sources for jump packs/ maneuverability jets at all. Oh, wait, yes it was!
The point is that those things aren't standard equipment. And magnetic boots aren't all that impressive in void combat, where you need to be able to maneuver in all three dimensions and not be constrained to walking on an appropriate surface.
I said they don't make larger titans. Unfortunately we're stuck with this one, but fluff-wise it's explicitly a very rare unit produced in limited numbers by one rogue engineer. The primary titan-scale units for the Tau are the railgun Tigershark and the Manta. And let's not forget that the railgun Tigershark is capable of blowing away a Warhound in one strafing run. Or that the Manta is a small spacecraft (complete with independent FTL, etc) armed with railguns intended to engage starships, not mere titans. The fact that the Tau aren't stupid enough to make a bunch of giant walking cathedrals does not mean that they are unable to match Imperial titans.
Oh yeah, Imperial tech sucks and is totally bass ackwards. I was just saying that it isn't as easy to innovate as EmpNorton makes it out to be and that the Imperium has done innovation. Just very slowly.
The Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Macharius are still counterexamples even if that was true.
Everything I've seen about the development of the Crusader indicates that some sort of "techno-arcana" whatever the hell that is, was required to create the Crusader. Simagus was not smart enough to do it without some sort of outside non-imperial interference. Point, me.
The Redeemer... I don't have IA 2 to look.
The Macharius was a lifelong project of a brilliant man WHO ALREADY HAD PARTIAL BLUEPRINTS FOR IT!!! Two points, me.
Maybe I'll see about obtaining IA2 so I can finish rubbing your nose in it, but this happens every time this discussion comes up. People say, "But what about X," and I find that it came from an STC or there were blueprints or otherwise there was no original invention. It's PART OF THE SETTING that innovation is beyond humanity in its current state. I don't know why people fight it so hard when its part of the beauty of the setting.
I know this may be asking a bit much, but could people PLEASE look up to origin of their favorite Imperial toy before suggesting it was invented, rather than found? Does it REALLY need to be my responsibility to educate you people in the ignorance of the Imperium?
Yeah, there's not really any point of inventing and innovating when you know there is something much, much better than anything you can design out there.
TheCustomLime wrote: Oh yeah, Imperial tech sucks and is totally bass ackwards. I was just saying that it isn't as easy to innovate as EmpNorton makes it out to be and that the Imperium has done innovation. Just very slowly.
For example, attaching some extra plates to SM power armor to protect weak spots in the joints took thousands of years to accomplish.
It doesn't matter if the Crusader, Redeemer or Macharius are based partially on previously existimg tech. These are Imperial innovations. And yeah innovation is done slowly. I never said it wasn't.
The Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Macharius are still counterexamples even if that was true.
Everything I've seen about the development of the Crusader indicates that some sort of "techno-arcana" whatever the hell that is, was required to create the Crusader. Simagus was not smart enough to do it without some sort of outside non-imperial interference. Point, me.
Well, according to the 4th edition Codex: Black Templars that introduced the Crusader, it was an on-the-fly battlefield modification to get disarmed land raiders back into the fray using the most commonly available wargear. Dunno what bullgak they've made up since then though.
Land Raider Aries, same deal, except that it was Dark Angels needing a more heavily armoured siege unit after their Vindicators all got blown up who managed to mount a Demolisher Cannon securely enough to fire it multiple times in the troop bay of a Land Raider.
These are random techmarines - in AdMech terms, really low ranked - who are performing battlefield modifications of technology with limited resource and innovating as they do it.
So... points to me. All of them. I have all of the points.
If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
If that's the best examples you can provide then I think we've finished this debate. The Macharius took centuries of work to get a tank that would be obsolete by WWII standards. The Predator Annihilator is just a regular Predator with its gun swapped for lascannons. The LR Crusader/Redeemer are just regular Land Raiders with different guns in their sponson mounts. The Razorback is just a Rhino with a sentry gun bolted to the roof (quite literally, if you use the FW Razorback turrets). The fact that these are considered major accomplishments by Imperial standards pretty strongly suggests that the Imperium isn't capable of doing anything more difficult.
Imperial innovation isn't there to improve already existing constructs. Imperials invent new weapons and machinery by finding a heavily-fragmented STC and filling in the blanks how they think it should be; anything else is heresy. This is a well-documented fact, and can actually end up with something completely different from the original STC.
On the Macharius Super-Heavy Tank: The Macharius Super-Heavy Tank is just a Baneblade's little brother. It features powerful armour that is well beyond anything we could hope of having today (or in WWII) composed of alloys that are of much higher quality than what we could hope for today (or in WWII). The whole thing has the firepower of two of today's tanks combined, with 2 Battle Cannons (which are refined far beyond what we have today), 2 Heavy Stubbers, and 2 Heavy Bolters. It's engine is well beyond anything we have today. It's an all-around solid tank, it just so happens that GW decided against using a design that's actually realistic for a tank built in 30 thousand years (for instance, 360 degree movement).
dusara217 wrote: Right, because sticking a few shoulder-mounted missile launchers onto (a la Tau Battlesuit) would really cause the entire machine to malfunction and murder its wearer.
How much do those launchers weigh? How much ammunition can you carry for them? Will a bulky box of missiles restrict the armor's movement? Is it a good idea to put all of your eggs in one basket, or should those missiles be given to a different unit instead? Again, there's much more to how you choose weapons than "how many square inches of space does this have", and there's a reason why real-world tanks don't have weapons bolted to every possible surface.
The Aeronautica Imperialis book where the Remora stealth drone was introduced mentions them being invisible in clear skies. No terrain to hide behind or blend in with, and you still can't see the Remora. And, unlike camo cloaks, Tau stealth fields don't require any skill from the user to blend in with their surroundings. You simply switch it on, and suddenly your unit is invisible.
Okay, I think that this portion of the argument got a little misconstrued. My point was that Imperials already had the technology to make people invisible the way the Tau do, they just don't have an ounce of ingenuity, and so they don't use it that way. Case in point:
stealth field generator, a holographic disruption field making the suit harder to spot.
The technology for making them invisible is a form of holographic technology, which humans mastered 15k+ years ago.
Really? Because it's stats are the same (tabletop wise), and both virtually identical feats under their belt (such as surviving direct armour-piercing missile blasts or Plasma shots to the face). If I'm wrong, then prove it. Stop making wild assertions without backing them up. What's your source?
Have you even read the Tau codex? The Riptide is a T6 MC, the terminator is a one-wound infantry model with a better armor save. If you're seriously disputing the fact that Riptides are tougher than terminators then I don't really know what to say.
Unfortunately, no. I have not read the Tau 'dex. Most of my knowledge regarding the Tau comes from hours upon hours of internet reading, much of it from Lexicanum and 1d4chan (those guys really know how to make a topic fun to read about, even if it isn't always reliable), tacticas for the tabletop game, and random googling when I become curious about things (which usually leads to a forum like belloflostsouls or dakka or B&C, which cite sources 80% of the time). Armour-wise, the Terminator and the Riptide are on par. However, the Riptide includes a portable shield generator alongside much thicker armour (though not really higher quality armour), accounting for its invulnerability save, additional toughness, and additional wounds.
Yeah, right, because Power Armour definitely wasn't designed with Mag-Lock Boots, hours of oxygen, power sources for jump packs/ maneuverability jets at all. Oh, wait, yes it was!
The point is that those things aren't standard equipment. And magnetic boots aren't all that impressive in void combat, where you need to be able to maneuver in all three dimensions and not be constrained to walking on an appropriate surface.
Uh, yes, yes they are [standard equipment]. Not only that, they are also required equipment for infantry Void warfare. Why? Because infantry Void warfare consists of boarding other spacecraft and repelling enemy boarding parties. 360 degree movement is for things like fighters and drones, not infantry. When the Emperor's Children assaulted an Ork space station, the use of magnetic boots alongside with their armours' life support systems proved critical for taking it (Fulgrim). Assault Squads are the bread and butter of the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers; meaning Jump Packs are, in fact, standard issue (for Assault Marines, at least, but it's not like you'd want a Tactical Marine with a Jump Pack, he would be too bulky to deploy in most situations). The Space Wolves have so many Jump Packs they give them to their new recruits (as seen in Codex: Space Wolves). Power Armour has built-in life support systems, Mag-Lock Boots, Hours of Oxygen when the suit is sealed, interfaces for attachments like Jump Packs that are very widely used, and all Space Marines are trained in the use of. Also, magnetic boots are critical in Void combat, when their only use is keeping you on the ship so that you don't get vaporized or lost in space. In Fear to Treat, a pack of Space Wolves shoot a missile out of the Red Tear's hull specifically because they know that the Space Marines have magnetic boots, and the explosive decompression will suck out the Daemons they're fighting.
I said they don't make larger titans. Unfortunately we're stuck with this one, but fluff-wise it's explicitly a very rare unit produced in limited numbers by one rogue engineer. The primary titan-scale units for the Tau are the railgun Tigershark and the Manta. And let's not forget that the railgun Tigershark is capable of blowing away a Warhound in one strafing run. Or that the Manta is a small spacecraft (complete with independent FTL, etc) armed with railguns intended to engage starships, not mere titans.The fact that the Tau aren't stupid enough to make a bunch of giant walking cathedrals does not mean that they are unable to match Imperial titans.
I never said that. I simply said that the vehicle that the Tau designed specifically for killing Titans and Titan-sized opponents wasn't even on-par with the weakest of Imperial Battletitans. The literal best that the Tau Empire can do (in that department) and it could get pulverized by a Warhound in a straight-up fight, which is just sad (considering the fact that Warhounds were intended to be used for ambushing other Titans and/or scouting ahead of the rest of the Legio).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well, I was going the math angle. A circle is formed form an infinite number of points originating from a center "point".
Also, let it be known that your profile picture is glorious. Absolutely glorious.
dusara217 wrote: Imperial innovation isn't there to improve already existing constructs. Imperials invent new weapons and machinery by finding a heavily-fragmented STC and filling in the blanks how they think it should be; anything else is heresy. This is a well-documented fact, and can actually end up with something completely different from the original STC.
Yes, exactly, this is why Imperial "innovation" is such a joke. They have little or no ability to develop anything on their own, they have to find STC data that someone else produced before they can design something as simple as a tank like the Macharius.
On the Macharius Super-Heavy Tank: The Macharius Super-Heavy Tank is just a Baneblade's little brother. It features powerful armour that is well beyond anything we could hope of having today (or in WWII) composed of alloys that are of much higher quality than what we could hope for today (or in WWII). The whole thing has the firepower of two of today's tanks combined, with 2 Battle Cannons (which are refined far beyond what we have today), 2 Heavy Stubbers, and 2 Heavy Bolters. It's engine is well beyond anything we have today. It's an all-around solid tank, it just so happens that GW decided against using a design that's actually realistic for a tank built in 30 thousand years (for instance, 360 degree movement).
Citation needed for this "everything is superior to modern tanks" claim. I don't see anything in the description of the Macharius that makes that comparison, and if we look at the model we see a poorly-designed tank with no suspension and vastly excessive size and weight.
Err, your picture doesn't clarify anything about what you're saying. Nor does it do anything to answer the point I made about how there's way more to weapon choices than "how many square inches of surface area do I have".
Okay, I think that this portion of the argument got a little misconstrued. My point was that Imperials already had the technology to make people invisible the way the Tau do, they just don't have an ounce of ingenuity, and so they don't use it that way.
Except you're ignoring the fluff here. Camo cloaks are a really good version of those "spot the sniper" pictures. It's a sheet of fabric that adapts to match the color of the surrounding terrain, so if you're motionless in a good hiding spot it breaks up your outline and makes you very difficult to spot. But if you're moving or out in the middle of an open field it's not going to help you very much. Tau stealth fields, on the other hand, bend light around the unit and make it literally invisible. As in you can have a Remora drone flying at 500mph through open sky with no cover at all to hide behind and nobody can see it.
Uh, yes, yes they are [standard equipment].
No they aren't. Generic tactical marines (the most basic form of power armor) do not have maneuvering thrusters for void combat. Only specialized jump pack units have the ability to fly.
Because infantry Void warfare consists of boarding other spacecraft and repelling enemy boarding parties. 360 degree movement is for things like fighters and drones, not infantry.
Sounds like you just have very little imagination. Void warfare is anything that happens in space. Maybe that's fighting inside a ship you're boarding, or maybe it's fighting in the shattered remains of a space hulk where there are "islands" of debris and vast open spaces. Having the ability to maneuver in any direction you want is far more useful than mere magnetic boots.
Assault Squads are the bread and butter of the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers; meaning Jump Packs are, in fact, standard issue (for Assault Marines, at least, but it's not like you'd want a Tactical Marine with a Jump Pack, he would be too bulky to deploy in most situations).
Exactly, they're standard issue for assault squads. They're an add-on to the basic power armor that is only used by specialized units. And even those jump packs fall well short of what the Tau use. Assault marine jump packs are purely designed for moving as fast as possible in one direction (preferably directly at the enemy). Tau crisis suits can hover, fly in an out of cover while shooting, etc. That's a lot more finesse than merely flinging a screaming guy with a chainsaw at the enemy as fast as possible.
I never said that. I simply said that the vehicle that the Tau designed specifically for killing Titans and Titan-sized opponents wasn't even on-par with the weakest of Imperial Battletitans.
{citation needed}
Game stats are not fluff. The fact that the Warhound's turbolasers are a blatant game design mistake does not mean that the "real" Warhound is an unstoppable god of battle.
Also, the Tau vehicle designed specifically for killing titans is the railgun Tigershark. In its first appearance it blows away a Warhound in one pass, before the Imperial side even has time to realize what's happening. The other titan killer, which is designed for killing starships and just happens to be used for ground attack, is the Manta. The KX139 is the creation of one rogue engineer who has an unhealthy obsession with trying to copy other giant walkers, not a standard Tau unit.
On the Macharius Super-Heavy Tank: The Macharius Super-Heavy Tank is just a Baneblade's little brother. It features powerful armour that is well beyond anything we could hope of having today (or in WWII) composed of alloys that are of much higher quality than what we could hope for today (or in WWII). The whole thing has the firepower of two of today's tanks combined, with 2 Battle Cannons (which are refined far beyond what we have today), 2 Heavy Stubbers, and 2 Heavy Bolters. It's engine is well beyond anything we have today. It's an all-around solid tank, it just so happens that GW decided against using a design that's actually realistic for a tank built in 30 thousand years (for instance, 360 degree movement).
Citation needed for this "everything is superior to modern tanks" claim. I don't see anything in the description of the Macharius that makes that comparison, and if we look at the model we see a poorly-designed tank with no suspension and vastly excessive size and weight.
So, you expect me to believe that a tank made of Adamantium is easier to penetrate than a tank made of titanium or steel? That 15k+ years of innovation would create an engine that is inferior to what we have today? Yeah, you do that. I'll just be over here, in logic land.
Err, your picture doesn't clarify anything about what you're saying. Nor does it do anything to answer the point I made about how there's way more to weapon choices than "how many square inches of surface area do I have".
I swear, do I have to spell everything out in clearly defined, blatant lettering with no subtlety whatsoever? Some Crisis Battlesuits (as seen in the picture) utilize small, shoulder-mounted missile launchers. Terminators could quite easily utilize similar weaponry without causing the whole thing to spontaneously combust and murder its wearer. They are known to use wrist mounted Storm Bolters, it would be a simple matter to put self-propelled weaponry, like missiles, onto the shoulders. You wouldn't have to worry about the recoil knocking the wearer off balance (like a Bolter or Stubber), you wouldn't have to worry about Power Issues (It would just need to have the ability to swivel side-to-side and up-down), and you wouldn't have to spend a century and half coding the programmes for it into the TDA's cogitator engines (it would be simple targeting software, much like that used on Wrist-Mounted weaponry, and a launch command). It wouldn't be that difficult.
Okay, I think that this portion of the argument got a little misconstrued. My point was that Imperials already had the technology to make people invisible the way the Tau do, they just don't have an ounce of ingenuity, and so they don't use it that way.
Except you're ignoring the fluff here. Camo cloaks are a really good version of those "spot the sniper" pictures. It's a sheet of fabric that adapts to match the color of the surrounding terrain, so if you're motionless in a good hiding spot it breaks up your outline and makes you very difficult to spot. But if you're moving or out in the middle of an open field it's not going to help you very much. Tau stealth fields, on the other hand, bend light around the unit and make it literally invisible. As in you can have a Remora drone flying at 500mph through open sky with no cover at all to hide behind and nobody can see it.
Eh, no. Tau stealth technology uses holographics to hide the user (as has been stated repeatedly on many of my quotes and websites that I provided. Where's your source?). Refracting light stealth technology is stuff that we're working on today, but it is not what Tau or Imperial Stealth tech is based upon. If I'm wrong, then pull out the fething 'dex and give me a quote instead of making assertions with nothing to support them.
Uh, yes, yes they are [standard equipment].
No they aren't. Generic tactical marines (the most basic form of power armor) do not have maneuvering thrusters for void combat. Only specialized jump pack units have the ability to fly.
Okay, so you're saying that, in WWII, because it was only issued to specific individuals, the Thompson Submachine gun was not a standard piece of equipment in the US Army? Or that, becaues Navy Seals don't spend every mission underwater, water equipment is not standard equpiment for them? Because that makes about as much sense as what you just said. Space Marine Power Armour was designed to be outfitted for the mission at hand. If the mission demanded flight, then the wearer can attach a Jump Pack with minimal fuss (Blood Angel Omnibus). If the wearer needs to fight underwater, then the wearer can attach additional oxygen tanks (Codex: Space Wolves), if the wearer needs to fight in space with maneuvering jets, then you can put fething maneuvering jets onto it. That is why Power Armour is so versatile. If it came with extra oxygen to every fight, it would get blown to smitherines. If it wore a Jump Pack to every fight, it would be incapable of fighting underground or boarding a Space Hulk. The Tau specialized suits is all well and good, but its more expensive than the Imperial way of doing things. You have one chassis (Power Armour) that can be used in a trillion different situations and environments with only minimal changes to it (things that your average team of Chapter Serfs could do). This is standard equipment, regardless of whether or not you risk precious technology by throwing it into a fight that it will only be a burden in, or will do nothing useful in. Space Marines have their own brand of common sense, and this happens to be part of it.
Because infantry Void warfare consists of boarding other spacecraft and repelling enemy boarding parties. 360 degree movement is for things like fighters and drones, not infantry.
Sounds like you just have very little imagination. Void warfare is anything that happens in space. Maybe that's fighting inside a ship you're boarding, or maybe it's fighting in the shattered remains of a space hulk where there are "islands" of debris and vast open spaces. Having the ability to maneuver in any direction you want is far more useful than mere magnetic boots.
90% of the time, Infantry Void Warfare is boarding actions, which is why Space Marines' standard armour is perfectly suited for them.
Assault Squads are the bread and butter of the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers; meaning Jump Packs are, in fact, standard issue (for Assault Marines, at least, but it's not like you'd want a Tactical Marine with a Jump Pack, he would be too bulky to deploy in most situations).
Exactly, they're standard issue for assault squads. They're an add-on to the basic power armor that is only used by specialized units. And even those jump packs fall well short of what the Tau use. Assault marine jump packs are purely designed for moving as fast as possible in one direction (preferably directly at the enemy). Tau crisis suits can hover, fly in an out of cover while shooting, etc. That's a lot more finesse than merely flinging a screaming guy with a chainsaw at the enemy as fast as possible.
The entire premise of Space Marine combat doctrine is shock 'n awe. You hit fast, you hit hard, you [literally] scare the living crap out of those traitor Guardsmen, and go back to base. That's why they have Bolters instead of a more effective but less scary weapon. It's why they use fething chainsaws instead more effective weapons. And it's why they're called the Angels of Death.
I never said that. I simply said that the vehicle that the Tau designed specifically for killing Titans and Titan-sized opponents wasn't even on-par with the weakest of Imperial Battletitans.
{citation needed}
Game stats are not fluff. The fact that the Warhound's turbolasers are a blatant game design mistake does not mean that the "real" Warhound is an unstoppable god of battle.
Also, the Tau vehicle designed specifically for killing titans is the railgun Tigershark. In its first appearance it blows away a Warhound in one pass, before the Imperial side even has time to realize what's happening. The other titan killer, which is designed for killing starships and just happens to be used for ground attack, is the Manta. The KX139 is the creation of one rogue engineer who has an unhealthy obsession with trying to copy other giant walkers, not a standard Tau unit.
Here ya go, from the creators themselves (read the description for the fluff). And the site I originally cited . Here's a tactica that quotes the fluff (read the first couple paragraphs). Need I gather more sources? You know what, of course I will. How about this one: google. If you think that I'm wrong, then find something to support your position.
A simple comparison of the weaponry given to the Warhound and to the Supremacy Suit finds them to be roughly equivalent in firepower. The Warhound is larger, stealthier, and faster than the Supremacy Armour, however; giving it the edge.
I'm not going to reply to anything else (as either I agree with it, or is a semantics issue), but, current tau stealth fields are not holographics. The old XV15 stealth fields, however, were, which may be where the confusion lies. What's interesting is that the reason for the switch to the XV25, instead of the planned switch to the XV22, was that the imerium go their hands on a set of XV15 stealth armour, compromising it's viability as a stealth platform, meaning they had to rush the XV25 into production, instead of being able to test and switch to the more advanced XV22.
Sadly, for such an awesome piece of equipment, it gets very little said about it. I find stealth suits in general to be depressingly under-appreciated, both in fluff and in game (because they are super over-priced).
dusara217 wrote: So, you expect me to believe that a tank made of Adamantium is easier to penetrate than a tank made of titanium or steel?
Given that "adamantium" is an entirely fictional material I think YOU have the burden of demonstrating that the Macharius has better armor than real-world tanks.
That 15k+ years of innovation would create an engine that is inferior to what we have today? Yeah, you do that. I'll just be over here, in logic land.
Well, given that the engine is built by the same people who don't understand why you should put a suspension on your tanks and have more than an inch of ground clearance, I don't think it's safe to assume that it's better than what we can build now.
I swear, do I have to spell everything out in clearly defined, blatant lettering with no subtlety whatsoever? Some Crisis Battlesuits (as seen in the picture) utilize small, shoulder-mounted missile launchers. Terminators could quite easily utilize similar weaponry without causing the whole thing to spontaneously combust and murder its wearer. They are known to use wrist mounted Storm Bolters, it would be a simple matter to put self-propelled weaponry, like missiles, onto the shoulders. You wouldn't have to worry about the recoil knocking the wearer off balance (like a Bolter or Stubber), you wouldn't have to worry about Power Issues (It would just need to have the ability to swivel side-to-side and up-down), and you wouldn't have to spend a century and half coding the programmes for it into the TDA's cogitator engines (it would be simple targeting software, much like that used on Wrist-Mounted weaponry, and a launch command). It wouldn't be that difficult.
And, again, missiles don't have zero weight. Missiles don't have zero cost. Missiles potentially interfere with range of motion. Missiles potentially require CPU time that the armor's targeting systems don't have to spare. Etc. Missiles that work fine on a crisis suit may not work as well on a smaller set of terminator armor for a variety of reasons. The fact that crisis suits put a weapon in that spot doesn't mean that any random set of armor should do the same.
Also, remember cyclone missile racks? That's what you're looking for if you want terminators with missiles.
Eh, no. Tau stealth technology uses holographics to hide the user (as has been stated repeatedly on many of my quotes and websites that I provided. Where's your source?). Refracting light stealth technology is stuff that we're working on today, but it is not what Tau or Imperial Stealth tech is based upon. If I'm wrong, then pull out the fething 'dex and give me a quote instead of making assertions with nothing to support them.
Look, forget about arguing about what technobabble "explanation" is given and look at how they operate. Camo cloaks are just a sheet of color-changing fabric that acts like real-world sniper suits. It provides a cover for the wearer that looks similar to the terrain, and with the right skill in choosing a place to hide it can make the wearer very difficult to spot. Stealth fields simply make the object invisible. They don't just paint a stealth suit/drone/whatever the same color as the background and act as really effectively camouflage, they make it disappear.
Okay, so you're saying that, in WWII, because it was only issued to specific individuals, the Thompson Submachine gun was not a standard piece of equipment in the US Army? Or that, becaues Navy Seals don't spend every mission underwater, water equipment is not standard equpiment for them? Because that makes about as much sense as what you just said.
Oh FFS, can you stop nitpicking the exact definition of "standard issue"? Most power armor does not have a jetpack or zero-g maneuvering thrusters. Tactical squads don't have it. Devastator squads don't have it. Assault marines deploying from drop pods don't have it. Terminators don't have it. Etc. The only units that have any kind of flight ability are assault and vanguard squads that have been issued jump packs. And even those units have much less maneuverability than crisis suits (or Eldar warp spiders, etc).
Here ya go, from the creators themselves (read the description for the fluff). And the site I originally cited . Here's a tactica that quotes the fluff (read the first couple paragraphs). Need I gather more sources? You know what, of course I will. How about this one: google. If you think that I'm wrong, then find something to support your position.
Sigh. Maybe you should actually try to understand the fluff you're reading instead of just picking single sources that support your position? See that Fio’o Ke’lshan Sho’aun guy mentioned in the KX139's description? If you read the descriptions of the R'Varna and Y'Vahra Riptide variants you'll see that it says he's a rogue engineer who is ignoring orders from the ethereals and building his own pet projects. These are NOT standard Tau designs.
And, again, please stop ignoring the existence of the Tigershark and Manta and their demonstrated ability to destroy titans. The KX139 is not the only Tau titan killer.
A simple comparison of the weaponry given to the Warhound and to the Supremacy Suit finds them to be roughly equivalent in firepower. The Warhound is larger, stealthier, and faster than the Supremacy Armour, however; giving it the edge.[/spoiler]
Again, game mechanics and fluff are not the same. The Warhound wins because its dual turbolasers are a blatant balance mistake by GW, not because the fluff says it beats a KX139. And the fluff says absolutely nothing about the Warhound being faster or stealthier (as if "stealthy" could even apply to either unit).
Co'tor Shas wrote: Peregrine, are you seriously arguing that 40k tanks are not as tough as modern day stuff?
I'm saying that the claim that they are has not been supported, at least in the case of the Macharius. 40k tanks suffer from various design flaws that no modern tank designer would even consider, so why assume that their armor is any better? You certainly can't just appeal to "it's adamantium" since adamantium is a completely fictional material. It could be nothing more than the 40k name for a certain kind of steel.
I think a good example would be what they have to withstand. Some of the really heavy vehicles have been known to tank ( ) metla shots, and those are hot enough to vaporize titanium and steel. So at the very least they have higher heat resistance. And think of all the other things they are up against. Infantry firing .75 cal self-propelled, armour piercing grenades. Lasers powerful enough to blast through steel like it's nothing. All sorts of assorted shells and rockets.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I think a good example would be what they have to withstand. Some of the really heavy vehicles have been known to tank ( ) metla shots, and those are hot enough to vaporize titanium and steel. So at the very least they have higher heat resistance. And think of all the other things they are up against. Infantry firing .75 cal self-propelled, armour piercing grenades. Lasers powerful enough to blast through steel like it's nothing. All sorts of assorted shells and rockets.
Other things to consider is crew layout and crew jobs. With so many weapons to crew and man that leaves a lot that can go wrong. Another thing to consider is how awful being an Imperial Tank commander must be in the 40k.
So many guns to co ordinate, very few vision slits from memory, very big targets (they are gonna be shaken up ALOT) and whats worse is how huge these guns are. The kick back and the noise would be huge in these tanks.
"Power" is a very simple way of looking at it, but practicality is also a major factor. At the end of the day a balance of practicality, protection and offensive ability is needed in a good tank. Imperial Tanks have offensive power, mediocre protection (armoured apparently but huge targets and not very well designed to take a hit) and completely lack practicality. So really these tanks would not likely be used in a "real" situation as all it takes is one RPG and these guys are in a lot of trouble.
In "real" war usually the tank that wins is the tank that saw the other tank first. As a result tanks have got lower and lower while optics on tanks get better and better. Communication also improves so that tanks can keep updated with other teams on locations and so on. In 40k tanks have very few vision spots (that I can see), terrible silhouette (gonna be seen very quickly) and communication in a tank that has up to 5 guns or more means whatever the tank does is gonna be very tough to communicate.
At the end of the day, it's easy to compare simply guns and armour, but there is so much more to a tank (in my brief knowledge) that makes 40k Imperial tank designs a huge failure in comparison to the majority of real life tanks.
Oh, yes, definitely. 40k tanks, or at least imperial ones, while having the edge of firepower and armour, are pretty badly designed. Most can get away with it because AI, but you have a lot less of that in the imperium, and even then it;s generally created with actual human brains.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just thinking about tau stuff in relation to that, their MBT, the hammer head is pretty tall, but at the same time can have stuff like the d-pod, which can make them very hard to get a good solid shot on. They have some pretty good optical/scanner tech, and are often simply out-maneuver and out-range opponents. With regards to crew, they have a 3 man crew, a driver, gunner, and commander, but thanks to a "glass cockpit" setup, any member can do the job of the others, meaning that , theoretically, a skilled individual can operate the tank by themselves, although with decreased effectiveness. They are quite well armoured, but not as much as imperial ones due to weight restrictions on their grav-tech. On the flip-side, what with that and sensor spines, they can operate in almost any terrain with no decrease in effectiveness. Their main gun is rightly feared (in the fluff, sadly strong single shots are no where as good as med, high ROF now), fast, powerful, and accurate. And their submunitions can deal with infantry with ease. They also have their secondary weapons, gun drones, whihc can also be used for scouting, or to help other troops, burst cannons, which cut through infantry like nothing (think two tank mounted vulcans), and the SMS, which can effectively deal with enemies in cover, or take out drenched enmities in buildings. It does have a major weakness, however. it's engines. Destroy those and it can only float in place, immobile, reduced to a static turret. It can deal with minor damage with repair drones, but they would have limited effectiveness with more major damage.
Oh FFS, can you stop nitpicking the exact definition of "standard issue"? Most power armor does not have a jetpack or zero-g maneuvering thrusters. Tactical squads don't have it. Devastator squads don't have it. Assault marines deploying from drop pods don't have it. Terminators don't have it. Etc. The only units that have any kind of flight ability are assault and vanguard squads that have been issued jump packs. And even those units have much less maneuverability than crisis suits (or Eldar warp spiders, etc).
Uh, the exhaust nozzles on the standard space marine backpack are fully equipped to allow for vector control in zero-gravity environments. That's their main purpose;
Oh FFS, can you stop nitpicking the exact definition of "standard issue"? Most power armor does not have a jetpack or zero-g maneuvering thrusters. Tactical squads don't have it. Devastator squads don't have it. Assault marines deploying from drop pods don't have it. Terminators don't have it. Etc. The only units that have any kind of flight ability are assault and vanguard squads that have been issued jump packs. And even those units have much less maneuverability than crisis suits (or Eldar warp spiders, etc).
Uh, the exhaust nozzles on the standard space marine backpack are fully equipped to allow for vector control in zero-gravity environments. That's their main purpose;
Don't mind me, just fixing a post. But yeah, I'm pretty sure it was clearly stated somewhere that Adeptus Astartes armor was designed primarily for space combat. Hence the term, "Space Marine"
But yes. Space Marines don't have "flight capability" because they need extra boosters to maneuver in atmosphere - but in zero gravity, they're fully capable of operating, between their void-sealed suits (one of the systems specifically noted as not being included in Sororitas power armour - which also doesn't have the jet vents), maneuvering thrusters and built-in magnetic boots, a Space Marine is perfectly happy fighting on the hull of a space ship or even jumping from one ship to another.
From what i gather is not that the Imperium can't innovate and more that they won't since it goes against their dogma and the small things they "invent" is bending the rules and not be branded as a heretic. I think it's a lot like the Dwarves in WHFB.
lyrken wrote: From what i gather is not that the Imperium can't innovate and more that they won't since it goes against their dogma and the small things they "invent" is bending the rules and not be branded as a heretic. I think it's a lot like the Dwarves in WHFB.
There are clearly some things they invent that are then passed off as STCs. As mentioned before, Space Marine Centurion armor is a prime example. It can't possibly have come from an STC, as Astartes were created after the Age of Strife.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I think a good example would be what they have to withstand. Some of the really heavy vehicles have been known to tank ( ) metla shots, and those are hot enough to vaporize titanium and steel. So at the very least they have higher heat resistance. And think of all the other things they are up against. Infantry firing .75 cal self-propelled, armour piercing grenades. Lasers powerful enough to blast through steel like it's nothing. All sorts of assorted shells and rockets.
Other things to consider is crew layout and crew jobs. With so many weapons to crew and man that leaves a lot that can go wrong. Another thing to consider is how awful being an Imperial Tank commander must be in the 40k.
So many guns to co ordinate, very few vision slits from memory, very big targets (they are gonna be shaken up ALOT) and whats worse is how huge these guns are. The kick back and the noise would be huge in these tanks.
"Power" is a very simple way of looking at it, but practicality is also a major factor. At the end of the day a balance of practicality, protection and offensive ability is needed in a good tank. Imperial Tanks have offensive power, mediocre protection (armoured apparently but huge targets and not very well designed to take a hit) and completely lack practicality. So really these tanks would not likely be used in a "real" situation as all it takes is one RPG and these guys are in a lot of trouble.
In "real" war usually the tank that wins is the tank that saw the other tank first. As a result tanks have got lower and lower while optics on tanks get better and better. Communication also improves so that tanks can keep updated with other teams on locations and so on. In 40k tanks have very few vision spots (that I can see), terrible silhouette (gonna be seen very quickly) and communication in a tank that has up to 5 guns or more means whatever the tank does is gonna be very tough to communicate.
At the end of the day, it's easy to compare simply guns and armour, but there is so much more to a tank (in my brief knowledge) that makes 40k Imperial tank designs a huge failure in comparison to the majority of real life tanks.
If you want to stop a Leman Russ/Chimera all you need to do is to create muddy fields. Those tanks have such poor clearance that all it takes is a few inches of mud before they are stopped dead. The Imperial Guard would've had a horrible time invading the Soviet Union!
asorel wrote: I can't, practically speaking, see a reason for the Mechanicus not to appropriate and reverse-engineer xeno-tech when it is more advanced than what the Imperium has. Yes, I know that's explicitly forbidden by the Machine Cult. Yes, I know it makes the setting more grimdark. But I'm not a fan of grimderp, which is to say grimdarkness for the sake of grimdarkness. This isn't something that falls under that "The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology..." post that I'm sure many of us have read, at least as far as I am aware; it's not going to cause another Age of Strife, and no daemons are going to possess the tech if it's sanctified like everything else. The only real threat I see is retaliation from whatever xenos species you've chosen to picpocket, which is a nonissue if you pick your battles.
Case in point: the Tau. They've got an empire barely the size of Ultramar, with tech that's in several ways superior to what the Imperium can currently mass-produce. It would be a trivial matter to roll over them, send in the Inquisition to work with the Tau scientists to speed up the reverse-engineering before executing them, and start disseminating the tech into the greater Imperium, advertising it as a new STC.
If I'm wrong about any of this, feel free to explain why I am a blathering idiot.
First off you are completely wrong about the Tau having any superior tech. Everything the Tau have has far superior equivalents in the Imperium's technology. What the issue is the Imperium/Ad Mech doesn't disseminate the tech they have as much as they could. This is for several reasons.
1) Much of the high end technology would require very rare resources. And thus be expensive to produce and maintain. This means they couldn't arm near as many soldiers. Its better to have a million soldiers with lasguns and flak vests than 1000 soldiers with plasma guns and light power armor. Its better to have a million LRBTs than to have 100 Hammerheads. The Imperium could put railguns on their tanks if they wanted, but that would be very expensive and have diminishing returns.
2) Deep in the past, Mankind was almost wiped out by sentient AI. This has left a deep impact on the human psyche. A fear based on a very dangerous and ever present reality. The danger of a robot uprising. This has led to a healthy fear of technology. Its better to be slightly less powerful, but still alive, then to be so advanced you get pushed to extinction by your toaster.
I think to truly understand this question, you need to take a look at how the Mechanicus actually functions. It is not a component of the Imperium in the sense that the Astra Militarum or Adeptus Ministorum are. It is an entirely separate organisation dedicated to the reverence of the Machine God/Omnissiah/Space Jesus (ie Big E) that simply works with the Imperium out of a mutually beneficial partnership. The Mechanicus does not have the manpower to keep the combined forces of heretics, xenos, and chaos at bay. The Imperium does not have the technology to even get their men where they're needed and are thus powerless against external threats. Only together do the two become something that is greater than the sum of their parts, which still isn't enough judging by how humanity's efforts are going so far.
The Mechanicus itself runs on a set of core principles that every tech-adept is taught upon induction and is drilled with day and night since the beginning of their training upon pain of being lobotomised and recycled as a servitor, which is admittedly a fate worse than death. These are the Mysteries and the Warnings:
The Mysteries 01. Life is directed motion.
02. The spirit is the spark of life.
03. Sentience is the ability to learn the value of knowledge.
04. Intellect is the understanding of knowledge.
05. Sentience is the basest form of Intellect.
06. Understanding is the True Path to Comprehension.
07. Comprehension is the key to all things.
08. The Omnissiah knows all, comprehends all.
The Warnings 09. The alien mechanism is a perversion of the true path.
10. The soul is the conscience of sentience.
11. A soul can be bestowed only by the Omnissiah.
12. The Soulless sentience is the enemy of all.
13. The knowledge of the ancients stands beyond question.
14. The machine spirit guards the knowledge of the ancients.
15. Flesh is fallible, but ritual honors the machine spirit.
16. To break with ritual is to break with faith.
These core principles are the result of the Mechanicus getting beaten into the ground not once, but twice over the course of fifteen thousand years. The first such time was the Iron Men, which inspired Rule Twelve, as AI is considered sentience, but without a conscience that drives it. Admittedly this all could have been avoided by something as simple as Asimov's Laws which seem to be conveniently absent in any Sci-Fi setting that involves rogue AI or simply teaching it the value of morality and life but that's not the point. The point here is that it is forbidden because the war with the Iron Men was absolutely devastating for Mankind and they are loathe to allow such a calamity to befall them once again. The second time was the Horus Heresy, and that's what hammered the final nail into the coffin and made them fully convert to a religious take on the Machine when they had their own greatest creations turned against them. Mars became a battleground of Imperators and Warlords utilising terrible weaponry against each other and permanently scoring the surface of the planet with plasma, lasers, and fire.
This is why they have a problem with a lot of Tau tech, incidentally. A lot of it involves AI, and the Mechanicus are not willing to risk their existence on something that has tried to exterminate them once before. Say what you will about reason and logic, but a genocidal campaign conducted against your species is a damn good reason not to trust the thing that initiated said campaign in the first place. Even if they are dumb AI, Tau drones are set up so that more of them successfully connected to the same network become smarter, much like Geth. A single unit is rather simplistic in function and can perform basic tasks. A whole platoon of them are capable of advanced combat tactics that can outsmart even the most devious of foes simply by calculating the best approach to a given situation. You can find this here. Imagine if that suddenly turned on you? How screwed would you be? That is the Iron Men incident in a nutshell, and the Mechanicus have firmly decided that attempting it again is a frakking stupid idea that will only lead to their damnation, hence most of the warnings about Machine Spirits. I will address these later. However, the Tau Drone Control Systems are much more in line with Imperial Acceptable Use standards, as they're slaved to the brain of a human operator which can act as their conscience, their direction (Rules One and Two), hence why servitors are a thing.
As for why the don't reverse engineer technology, take a look at Rule Nine. When they refer to the Alien Mechanism, Alien is a catch-all term for anything not made by humans. Why? Because it will have been the first Magos to experiment with Xenos tech, the first to mess around with the horrors of the Warp, the first to study the evil that is Chaos itself that fell to the influence of the Ruinous Powers, the Big Four, those frakking gakheads who are truly only there to screw everyone over, and resulted in them (the Loyalist Mechanicus) being murdered by the millions with the same technology they built to defend themselves with. Innocent experiments with a Tau Pulse Rifle could lead to something much more sinister, like integrating warp energies into existing technology and making it temperamental, or even worse, daemonic. The Mechanicus decided that to avoid this entirely they would simply say 'no xenos or chaotic tech at all, ever' and then translate that into a format that humans can easily understand: fear and revulsion. Religion itself is built upon fear. The fear of what will happen should you not obey. This is what the Mechanicus and the Imperium run on and it is there to save them from damnation. It was the best solution to a problem that could only be described as heart-stoppingly terrifying should it ever actually come about. The enslavement of all humanity is nothing to sniff at.
This is why reverse engineering tech is bad. This is why Machine Spirits exist. They are there to dissuade the inquisitive from biting off more than they can chew, and in this grim, dark future, the agonising irony of it all is that it may be the only way to save them from total destruction against the very forces that they are forbidden from interacting with.
DevoutGuardsman wrote:Readdressing the issue raised by the OP:
I think to truly understand this question, you need to take a look at how the Mechanicus actually functions. It is not a component of the Imperium in the sense that the Astra Militarum or Adeptus Ministorum are. It is an entirely separate organisation dedicated to the reverence of the Machine God/Omnissiah/Space Jesus (ie Big E) that simply works with the Imperium out of a mutually beneficial partnership. The Mechanicus does not have the manpower to keep the combined forces of heretics, xenos, and chaos at bay. The Imperium does not have the technology to even get their men where they're needed and are thus powerless against external threats. Only together do the two become something that is greater than the sum of their parts, which still isn't enough judging by how humanity's efforts are going so far.
The Mechanicus itself runs on a set of core principles that every tech-adept is taught upon induction and is drilled with day and night since the beginning of their training upon pain of being lobotomised and recycled as a servitor, which is admittedly a fate worse than death. These are the Mysteries and the Warnings:
The Mysteries 01. Life is directed motion.
02. The spirit is the spark of life.
03. Sentience is the ability to learn the value of knowledge.
04. Intellect is the understanding of knowledge.
05. Sentience is the basest form of Intellect.
06. Understanding is the True Path to Comprehension.
07. Comprehension is the key to all things.
08. The Omnissiah knows all, comprehends all.
The Warnings 09. The alien mechanism is a perversion of the true path.
10. The soul is the conscience of sentience.
11. A soul can be bestowed only by the Omnissiah.
12. The Soulless sentience is the enemy of all.
13. The knowledge of the ancients stands beyond question.
14. The machine spirit guards the knowledge of the ancients.
15. Flesh is fallible, but ritual honors the machine spirit.
16. To break with ritual is to break with faith.
These core principles are the result of the Mechanicus getting beaten into the ground not once, but twice over the course of fifteen thousand years. The first such time was the Iron Men, which inspired Rule Twelve, as AI is considered sentience, but without a conscience that drives it. Admittedly this all could have been avoided by something as simple as Asimov's Laws which seem to be conveniently absent in any Sci-Fi setting that involves rogue AI or simply teaching it the value of morality and life but that's not the point. The point here is that it is forbidden because the war with the Iron Men was absolutely devastating for Mankind and they are loathe to allow such a calamity to befall them once again. The second time was the Horus Heresy, and that's what hammered the final nail into the coffin and made them fully convert to a religious take on the Machine when they had their own greatest creations turned against them. Mars became a battleground of Imperators and Warlords utilising terrible weaponry against each other and permanently scoring the surface of the planet with plasma, lasers, and fire.
This is why they have a problem with a lot of Tau tech, incidentally. A lot of it involves AI, and the Mechanicus are not willing to risk their existence on something that has tried to exterminate them once before. Say what you will about reason and logic, but a genocidal campaign conducted against your species is a damn good reason not to trust the thing that initiated said campaign in the first place. Even if they are dumb AI, Tau drones are set up so that more of them successfully connected to the same network become smarter, much like Geth. A single unit is rather simplistic in function and can perform basic tasks. A whole platoon of them are capable of advanced combat tactics that can outsmart even the most devious of foes simply by calculating the best approach to a given situation. You can find this here. Imagine if that suddenly turned on you? How screwed would you be? That is the Iron Men incident in a nutshell, and the Mechanicus have firmly decided that attempting it again is a frakking stupid idea that will only lead to their damnation, hence most of the warnings about Machine Spirits. I will address these later. However, the Tau Drone Control Systems are much more in line with Imperial Acceptable Use standards, as they're slaved to the brain of a human operator which can act as their conscience, their direction (Rules One and Two), hence why servitors are a thing.
As for why the don't reverse engineer technology, take a look at Rule Nine. When they refer to the Alien Mechanism, Alien is a catch-all term for anything not made by humans. Why? Because it will have been the first Magos to experiment with Xenos tech, the first to mess around with the horrors of the Warp, the first to study the evil that is Chaos itself that fell to the influence of the Ruinous Powers, the Big Four, those frakking gakheads who are truly only there to screw everyone over, and resulted in them (the Loyalist Mechanicus) being murdered by the millions with the same technology they built to defend themselves with. Innocent experiments with a Tau Pulse Rifle could lead to something much more sinister, like integrating warp energies into existing technology and making it temperamental, or even worse, daemonic. The Mechanicus decided that to avoid this entirely they would simply say 'no xenos or chaotic tech at all, ever' and then translate that into a format that humans can easily understand: fear and revulsion. Religion itself is built upon fear. The fear of what will happen should you not obey. This is what the Mechanicus and the Imperium run on and it is there to save them from damnation. It was the best solution to a problem that could only be described as heart-stoppingly terrifying should it ever actually come about. The enslavement of all humanity is nothing to sniff at.
This is why reverse engineering tech is bad. This is why Machine Spirits exist. They are there to dissuade the inquisitive from biting off more than they can chew, and in this grim, dark future, the agonising irony of it all is that it may be the only way to save them from total destruction against the very forces that they are forbidden from interacting with.
Not touching daemonic or warp tech makes sense, same with AI. That's why I didn't mention either of those specifically. The Tau have no Warp presence, and thus their tech is unlikely to be tainted by anything warpy.
Grey Templar wrote:
First off you are completely wrong about the Tau having any superior tech. Everything the Tau have has far superior equivalents in the Imperium's technology. What the issue is the Imperium/Ad Mech doesn't disseminate the tech they have as much as they could. This is for several reasons.
1) Much of the high end technology would require very rare resources. And thus be expensive to produce and maintain. This means they couldn't arm near as many soldiers. Its better to have a million soldiers with lasguns and flak vests than 1000 soldiers with plasma guns and light power armor. Its better to have a million LRBTs than to have 100 Hammerheads. The Imperium could put railguns on their tanks if they wanted, but that would be very expensive and have diminishing returns.
2) Deep in the past, Mankind was almost wiped out by sentient AI. This has left a deep impact on the human psyche. A fear based on a very dangerous and ever present reality. The danger of a robot uprising. This has led to a healthy fear of technology. Its better to be slightly less powerful, but still alive, then to be so advanced you get pushed to extinction by your toaster.
The Imperial Guard may be the most important fighting force in the IoM, but certainly not the only one. Smaller, more elite factions such as Storm Troopers, the Inquisition, and the Adeptus Astartes would certainly benefit from a boost, as they already follow the paradigm of better, more expensive wargear. Additionally, what does and dose not qualify as "more advanced," and what is and isn't available to the Imperium is a matter of some debate, of whichthis thread's argument over stealth technology is indicative.
But yes. Space Marines don't have "flight capability" because they need extra boosters to maneuver in atmosphere - but in zero gravity, they're fully capable of operating, between their void-sealed suits (one of the systems specifically noted as not being included in Sororitas power armour - which also doesn't have the jet vents), maneuvering thrusters and built-in magnetic boots, a Space Marine is perfectly happy fighting on the hull of a space ship or even jumping from one ship to another.
I'm with you on this one, and so is the fluff.
In Macragge's Honour you have marines in their normal power armour who fight on the outer hull of the ship while activating the "mag-lock plates" in their boots:
Spoiler:
There's more examples of fighting in space in the comic. You can also see them doing the same in Know No Fear (as seen on the cover):
Spoiler:
Both examples are from 30k but I'm sure there's 40k examples as well. Just using images here but I'm sure someone more studious can dig up written examples. The HH series as well as the Forge World series probably has examples as well.
I swear, do I have to spell everything out in clearly defined, blatant lettering with no subtlety whatsoever? Some Crisis Battlesuits (as seen in the picture) utilize small, shoulder-mounted missile launchers. Terminators could quite easily utilize similar weaponry without causing the whole thing to spontaneously combust and murder its wearer. They are known to use wrist mounted Storm Bolters, it would be a simple matter to put self-propelled weaponry, like missiles, onto the shoulders. You wouldn't have to worry about the recoil knocking the wearer off balance (like a Bolter or Stubber), you wouldn't have to worry about Power Issues (It would just need to have the ability to swivel side-to-side and up-down), and you wouldn't have to spend a century and half coding the programmes for it into the TDA's cogitator engines (it would be simple targeting software, much like that used on Wrist-Mounted weaponry, and a launch command). It wouldn't be that difficult.
And, again, missiles don't have zero weight. Missiles don't have zero cost. Missiles potentially interfere with range of motion. Missiles potentially require CPU time that the armor's targeting systems don't have to spare. Etc. Missiles that work fine on a crisis suit may not work as well on a smaller set of terminator armor for a variety of reasons. The fact that crisis suits put a weapon in that spot doesn't mean that any random set of armor should do the same.
Also, remember cyclone missile racks? That's what you're looking for if you want terminators with missiles.
Now you're just arguing to argue. By you're own admission, you're wrong.
Eh, no. Tau stealth technology uses holographics to hide the user (as has been stated repeatedly on many of my quotes and websites that I provided. Where's your source?). Refracting light stealth technology is stuff that we're working on today, but it is not what Tau or Imperial Stealth tech is based upon. If I'm wrong, then pull out the fething 'dex and give me a quote instead of making assertions with nothing to support them.
Look, forget about arguing about what technobabble "explanation" is given and look at how they operate. Camo cloaks are just a sheet of color-changing fabric that acts like real-world sniper suits. It provides a cover for the wearer that looks similar to the terrain, and with the right skill in choosing a place to hide it can make the wearer very difficult to spot. Stealth fields simply make the object invisible. They don't just paint a stealth suit/drone/whatever the same color as the background and act as really effectively camouflage, they make it disappear.
So, what, forget about the actual technology? In an argument about technology? Do you even logic?
Also, ghillie suits have very little in common with the technology of camo cloaks. Ghillie suits are fixed comouflage that require very specific locations to work correctly. However, with Camo cloaks, you could literally stand up against a wall and turn the exact color, texture, etc. of the wall. At night, you would be as black as the area around you, or as foliage-like as the foliage you need to hide in.
Okay, so you're saying that, in WWII, because it was only issued to specific individuals, the Thompson Submachine gun was not a standard piece of equipment in the US Army? Or that, becaues Navy Seals don't spend every mission underwater, water equipment is not standard equpiment for them? Because that makes about as much sense as what you just said.
Oh FFS, can you stop nitpicking the exact definition of "standard issue"? Most power armor does not have a jetpack or zero-g maneuvering thrusters. Tactical squads don't have it. Devastator squads don't have it. Assault marines deploying from drop pods don't have it. Terminators don't have it. Etc. The only units that have any kind of flight ability are assault and vanguard squads that have been issued jump packs. And even those units have much less maneuverability than crisis suits (or Eldar warp spiders, etc).
Again with the argument for argument's sake.
Here ya go, from the creators themselves (read the description for the fluff). And the site I originally cited . Here's a tactica that quotes the fluff (read the first couple paragraphs). Need I gather more sources? You know what, of course I will. How about this one: google. If you think that I'm wrong, then find something to support your position.
Sigh. Maybe you should actually try to understand the fluff you're reading instead of just picking single sources that support your position? See that Fio’o Ke’lshan Sho’aun guy mentioned in the KX139's description? If you read the descriptions of the R'Varna and Y'Vahra Riptide variants you'll see that it says he's a rogue engineer who is ignoring orders from the ethereals and building his own pet projects. These are NOT standard Tau designs.
And, again, please stop ignoring the existence of the Tigershark and Manta and their demonstrated ability to destroy titans. The KX139 is not the only Tau titan killer.
R'varna and Y'vahra Riptide variants mention that. Not the Supremacy Armour (Forgeworld did not mention this, nor did Lexicanum). All that is said regarding the Supremacy Armour is that the afore-mentioned engineer created it; not that it he went rogue and did it illegally. In fact, the entries make the Supremacy Armour seem like the Tau military's go-to anti-Titan vehicle.
Also, I ignored the Tigershark/Manta because those were not the points of debate. Those are effective Titan-killers, but they were designed for other things, and the Tau titan wasn't even up to snuff with the weakest of Imperial battletitans (which it was specifically designed to take down).
A simple comparison of the weaponry given to the Warhound and to the Supremacy Suit finds them to be roughly equivalent in firepower. The Warhound is larger, stealthier, and faster than the Supremacy Armour, however; giving it the edge.
Again, game mechanics and fluff are not the same. The Warhound wins because its dual turbolasers are a blatant balance mistake by GW, not because the fluff says it beats a KX139. And the fluff says absolutely nothing about the Warhound being faster or stealthier (as if "stealthy" could even apply to either unit).
Game mechanics have nothing to do with it. A simple comparison of the fluffy Warhound shows its armaments to be roughly equivalent with the Supremacy Armour, while it is also the fastest Imperial Titan (whereas the Supremacy Armour is specifically mentioned to be incredibly slow)
Co'tor Shas wrote: I think a good example would be what they have to withstand. Some of the really heavy vehicles have been known to tank ( ) metla shots, and those are hot enough to vaporize titanium and steel. So at the very least they have higher heat resistance. And think of all the other things they are up against. Infantry firing .75 cal self-propelled, armour piercing grenades. Lasers powerful enough to blast through steel like it's nothing. All sorts of assorted shells and rockets.
Other things to consider is crew layout and crew jobs. With so many weapons to crew and man that leaves a lot that can go wrong. Another thing to consider is how awful being an Imperial Tank commander must be in the 40k.
So many guns to co ordinate, very few vision slits from memory, very big targets (they are gonna be shaken up ALOT) and whats worse is how huge these guns are. The kick back and the noise would be huge in these tanks.
"Power" is a very simple way of looking at it, but practicality is also a major factor. At the end of the day a balance of practicality, protection and offensive ability is needed in a good tank. Imperial Tanks have offensive power, mediocre protection (armoured apparently but huge targets and not very well designed to take a hit) and completely lack practicality. So really these tanks would not likely be used in a "real" situation as all it takes is one RPG and these guys are in a lot of trouble.
In "real" war usually the tank that wins is the tank that saw the other tank first. As a result tanks have got lower and lower while optics on tanks get better and better. Communication also improves so that tanks can keep updated with other teams on locations and so on. In 40k tanks have very few vision spots (that I can see), terrible silhouette (gonna be seen very quickly) and communication in a tank that has up to 5 guns or more means whatever the tank does is gonna be very tough to communicate.
At the end of the day, it's easy to compare simply guns and armour, but there is so much more to a tank (in my brief knowledge) that makes 40k Imperial tank designs a huge failure in comparison to the majority of real life tanks.
If you want to stop a Leman Russ/Chimera all you need to do is to create muddy fields. Those tanks have such poor clearance that all it takes is a few inches of mud before they are stopped dead. The Imperial Guard would've had a horrible time invading the Soviet Union!
Dirt moves out of the way of the Emperor's Tanks if it knows what's good for it.
Furyou Miko wrote: Supremacy Armour is noted as being slow by the Tau - that could just mean in comparison to, say, a Riptide.
That is a point. Tau very mobility very highly, even more than the space marines. They don't even fight over ground the same way, prefering to choose their own battles. Honestly, though, we know next to nothing about the Tau'nar, the only information is a single paragraph on the data-sheet.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I think a good example would be what they have to withstand. Some of the really heavy vehicles have been known to tank ( ) metla shots, and those are hot enough to vaporize titanium and steel. So at the very least they have higher heat resistance. And think of all the other things they are up against. Infantry firing .75 cal self-propelled, armour piercing grenades. Lasers powerful enough to blast through steel like it's nothing. All sorts of assorted shells and rockets.
Other things to consider is crew layout and crew jobs. With so many weapons to crew and man that leaves a lot that can go wrong. Another thing to consider is how awful being an Imperial Tank commander must be in the 40k.
So many guns to co ordinate, very few vision slits from memory, very big targets (they are gonna be shaken up ALOT) and whats worse is how huge these guns are. The kick back and the noise would be huge in these tanks.
"Power" is a very simple way of looking at it, but practicality is also a major factor. At the end of the day a balance of practicality, protection and offensive ability is needed in a good tank. Imperial Tanks have offensive power, mediocre protection (armoured apparently but huge targets and not very well designed to take a hit) and completely lack practicality. So really these tanks would not likely be used in a "real" situation as all it takes is one RPG and these guys are in a lot of trouble.
In "real" war usually the tank that wins is the tank that saw the other tank first. As a result tanks have got lower and lower while optics on tanks get better and better. Communication also improves so that tanks can keep updated with other teams on locations and so on. In 40k tanks have very few vision spots (that I can see), terrible silhouette (gonna be seen very quickly) and communication in a tank that has up to 5 guns or more means whatever the tank does is gonna be very tough to communicate.
At the end of the day, it's easy to compare simply guns and armour, but there is so much more to a tank (in my brief knowledge) that makes 40k Imperial tank designs a huge failure in comparison to the majority of real life tanks.
If you want to stop a Leman Russ/Chimera all you need to do is to create muddy fields. Those tanks have such poor clearance that all it takes is a few inches of mud before they are stopped dead. The Imperial Guard would've had a horrible time invading the Soviet Union!
Dirt moves out of the way of the Emperor's Tanks if it knows what's good for it.
That might have been the most funny thing that I've read on Dakka Chuck Norris wishes he was the at awesomeXD
*Sigh* why do people insist on comparing ww1/ww2/modern tanks to those in 40k....
Obvious plot holes exist to why tanks are in the 40k universe at all.
Personal AT weapons capable of being just as effective as vehicle mounted AT weapons.... unless you get to titan killer size. No real reason mini nukes are not used constantly, and no explanation why aircraft and heli's are not wide spread tank killers.
Arguably you could claim vehicles got so heavily armoured to the point and armed they helped negate these things. IIRC most "tanks" in the 40k universe really are light vehicles used en mass and not even originally designed for combat in most cases, while the superheavies were also light/medium vehicles prior to the imperium using them.
Also why does this rumour of non-suspension for imperium vehicles come from? A) In IA1SE you can clearly see coil spring suspension/shock absorbers for the leman russ. B) Torsion Bars anyone? Plus the ride in massive vehicles will be pretty bad anyway, as in the super heavies case I don't think it's such an issue.
Peregrine wrote: I'm saying that the claim that they are has not been supported, at least in the case of the Macharius. 40k tanks suffer from various design flaws that no modern tank designer would even consider, so why assume that their armor is any better? You certainly can't just appeal to "it's adamantium" since adamantium is a completely fictional material. It could be nothing more than the 40k name for a certain kind of steel.
Look at the russ, and most other non SH imperial 40k vehicles, the vast majority were never intended to be combat vehicles during their initial creation. Even then while the average LR uses ww2 style ammo, the vanquisher however most defiantly uses ammo akin to modern ammunition, with one specific round being even more advanced. Then you have the issue why hull mounted guns were removed from modern vehicles..... they were originally the main weapon, as such the 'main' weapon is better in the turret. However having weapons such as a lascannon or heavy bolter which fluff wise are about as easy to use as a heavy machinegun, well why not have your radio operator use them etc?
The main reason multi turreted tanks failed was an inability to armour them, which on superheavies is no longer an issue. Second issue, shared by sponsons and not just turrets, it that it is wasting crew members, when the system is automated and two extra crew specifically added for the job (aka Russ), again it's a none issue as long as you still have your main weapon on the turret. Real life sponsons, such as on the LEE did not have these issues, it's weakness was that it was at a disadvantage vs vehicles with the main gun in the turret.
The only "real" weakness is the high profile in the case of vehicles like leman russes, but alas, it was never intended to be a tank originally.
Lets not forget that one of the big grimdark aspects of Tau are their naivety about the nature of the universe. (Not even considering they are all chemically brainwashed slaves to the ethereals.)
Tau headed toward producing AI which will revolt and cause their own war of Iron Men.
Tau will eventually discover the warp, and the warp will discover them. Tau are too small to have any imprint on the warp but as they grow that will change.
Tau are so small they could at any time become a speed bump for any number of alien factions.
Tau technology in the hands of the Imperium is not impervious to the taint of chaos. Admech has no way of knowing which xenos technology has built in safeguards to destroy, corrupt or disease non-natives who would try to use it. The official doctrine forbids all alien tech, but those with enough power and the desire to risk it and at least think they know better can use alien tech. Lots of times it doesn't do anything harmful. Sometimes it does. There is definitely no way to say "this is Tau so it's safe to use".
Nemesor Dave wrote: Admech has no way of knowing which xenos technology has built in safeguards to destroy, corrupt or disease non-natives who would try to use it. The official doctrine forbids all alien tech, but those with enough power and the desire to risk it and at least think they know better can use alien tech. Lots of times it doesn't do anything harmful. Sometimes it does. There is definitely no way to say "this is Tau so it's safe to use".
Tau occasionally hand out their weapon tech to Kroot and Gue'Vesa, so it's clear their tech isn't gene-locked.
There's also a path worth thinking down, which is that the Mechanicus is actually right. E.g., performing the Rite of Contrition correctly does magically make tech work. Not just for the ignition to flip over, but for all of the various nightmares of psykers, magic, and the Warp to not cause the ignition to flip (the whole tank) over.
It's clearly set up to be a 'haha, those dumb ol' future savages,' but it's entirely feasible that in the 40K setting thumping a logic engine according to the Rites actually makes the computer work better.
In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.
deadairis wrote: In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.
This argument fails when you consider the Necrons, who have a similar lack of concern for turning technology into religious rituals but have been ignoring the supposed consequences for longer than humanity has existed. The obvious answer here is that sensible engineering works just fine in 40k, and the Imperium is just too stupid to do it.
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Baldeagle91 wrote: Also why does this rumour of non-suspension for imperium vehicles come from? A) In IA1SE you can clearly see coil spring suspension/shock absorbers for the leman russ. B) Torsion Bars anyone? Plus the ride in massive vehicles will be pretty bad anyway, as in the super heavies case I don't think it's such an issue.
It comes from looking at the model. There's simply no room for the tracks to move upward along those springs because as soon as they move more than an inch or so they pass beyond the edge of the tank's side armor plates and the hull starts to drag on the ground. You can't have a functioning suspension with an inch of ground clearance, no matter how many springs you attach to it.
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dusara217 wrote: Now you're just arguing to argue. By you're own admission, you're wrong.
I really have no idea what you're talking about. Mentioning cyclone missile racks is not an admission that your bizarre "every surface of a suit of power armor should be covered in guns" theory is correct.
Also, ghillie suits have very little in common with the technology of camo cloaks. Ghillie suits are fixed comouflage that require very specific locations to work correctly. However, with Camo cloaks, you could literally stand up against a wall and turn the exact color, texture, etc. of the wall. At night, you would be as black as the area around you, or as foliage-like as the foliage you need to hide in.
Sigh. The point is that they function the same. They're more advanced because they can change colors to work in different environments instead of being a single suit that is worthless when you go from a forest into a ruined building. But they still work like real-world camo gear, they make you the same color as your background so you blend in better. This is supported by your own quotes, where it talks about how skilled users can be nearly invisible. If camo cloaks worked like Tau stealth fields then skill would be irrelevant, you simply turn it on and disappear. A Remora drone isn't a highly-trained stealth specialist, it's a floating automated gun platform with a stealth field bolted on.
R'varna and Y'vahra Riptide variants mention that. Not the Supremacy Armour (Forgeworld did not mention this, nor did Lexicanum). All that is said regarding the Supremacy Armour is that the afore-mentioned engineer created it; not that it he went rogue and did it illegally.
Given that the engineer is in trouble for making other giant anime robots I think it's a pretty safe bet that the biggest one is one more in the trend.
In fact, the entries make the Supremacy Armour seem like the Tau military's go-to anti-Titan vehicle.
And this is the problem with trying to look at single quotes out of context without really understanding them. Other Tau fluff specifically mentions that the Tigershark and Manta are the primary Tau answers to titans, and they're quite good at it. A Tigershark is capable of blowing away a Warhound in a single strafing run.
Also, I ignored the Tigershark/Manta because those were not the points of debate.
They're absolutely part of the debate. Your argument here is essentially "lol Tau can't beat titans", and you're trying to ignore explicit fluff examples of the Tau not only defeating titans, but crushing them so utterly that the Imperium ran away from the fight to avoid suffering even more titan losses.
Those are effective Titan-killers, but they were designed for other things
You're partially right. The Manta is designed to kill starships, and just happens to be useful in ground combat. However, the railgun Tigershark is explicitly stated to be a dedicated titan killer, and it's very good at its job.
and the Tau titan wasn't even up to snuff with the weakest of Imperial battletitans (which it was specifically designed to take down).
{citation needed}
Given that there are no fluff examples of fights between the two units I have no idea how you are coming to this conclusion, other than a comparison of game mechanics where the Warhound wins because its rules are blatantly overpowered.
deadairis wrote: In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.
This argument fails when you consider the Necrons, who have a similar lack of concern for turning technology into religious rituals but have been ignoring the supposed consequences for longer than humanity has existed. The obvious answer here is that sensible engineering works just fine in 40k, and the Imperium is just too stupid to do it.
Not stupid, as discussed, but afraid.
Also, Necrons are a completely different kettle of fish, who actually had the gods of the material universe on their side. A rather large advantage to the Imperium, even if we are referring to DAOT humanity.
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Baldeagle91 wrote: Also why does this rumour of non-suspension for imperium vehicles come from? A) In IA1SE you can clearly see coil spring suspension/shock absorbers for the leman russ. B) Torsion Bars anyone? Plus the ride in massive vehicles will be pretty bad anyway, as in the super heavies case I don't think it's such an issue.
It comes from looking at the model. There's simply no room for the tracks to move upward along those springs because as soon as they move more than an inch or so they pass beyond the edge of the tank's side armor plates and the hull starts to drag on the ground. You can't have a functioning suspension with an inch of ground clearance, no matter how many springs you attach to it.
Again, the model and rules are not canon specifically. Unless we start saying that guardsmen and marines are the same sides, ten marines can't fit in a Rhino and that Creed has a collar taller than his head? It's a facsimile of reality, not an accurate representation.
R'varna and Y'vahra Riptide variants mention that. Not the Supremacy Armour (Forgeworld did not mention this, nor did Lexicanum). All that is said regarding the Supremacy Armour is that the afore-mentioned engineer created it; not that it he went rogue and did it illegally.
Given that the engineer is in trouble for making other giant anime robots I think it's a pretty safe bet that the biggest one is one more in the trend.
Not necessarily. If the suit is used somewhat frequently, then it could also be assumed it was done legally, or even supported by the Ethereal Caste for reasons unknown. It may be common as it is the only one of it's class. The other two are variants of an existing design that works well. The Supremacy Suit is completely new to the Tau.
In fact, the entries make the Supremacy Armour seem like the Tau military's go-to anti-Titan vehicle.
And this is the problem with trying to look at single quotes out of context without really understanding them. Other Tau fluff specifically mentions that the Tigershark and Manta are the primary Tau answers to titans, and they're quite good at it. A Tigershark is capable of blowing away a Warhound in a single strafing run.
Quote please? A single strafing run? I'm not doubting, but I'd like to see this fluff.
Those are effective Titan-killers, but they were designed for other things
You're partially right. The Manta is designed to kill starships, and just happens to be useful in ground combat. However, the railgun Tigershark is explicitly stated to be a dedicated titan killer, and it's very good at its job.
Is it better or worse than the Supremacy, though?
and the Tau titan wasn't even up to snuff with the weakest of Imperial battletitans (which it was specifically designed to take down).
{citation needed}
Given that there are no fluff examples of fights between the two units I have no idea how you are coming to this conclusion, other than a comparison of game mechanics where the Warhound wins because its rules are blatantly overpowered.
Can't comment without seeing some fluff on a fight between these two titans, so I'll agree there.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Again, the model and rules are not canon specifically. Unless we start saying that guardsmen and marines are the same sides, ten marines can't fit in a Rhino and that Creed has a collar taller than his head? It's a facsimile of reality, not an accurate representation.
Then why do fluff pictures of the LRBT have the same flaw? Even the FW cutway drawing that was cited as evidence for the LRBT having a suspension has the exact same problem as the model.
Not necessarily. If the suit is used somewhat frequently, then it could also be assumed it was done legally, or even supported by the Ethereal Caste for reasons unknown. It may be common as it is the only one of it's class. The other two are variants of an existing design that works well. The Supremacy Suit is completely new to the Tau.
You could assume that. Or you could just accept the obvious interpretation that FW has presented, even if they didn't explicitly state it in one product description. There's a very clear theme that these units are all the pet projects of a rogue engineer.
Quote please? A single strafing run? I'm not doubting, but I'd like to see this fluff.
IA3, the only battle where titans are deployed. The Tigershark comes in out of nowhere, kills a Warhound in one pass, and disappears again as the Imperium pulls their titans out of the fight.
Is it better or worse than the Supremacy, though?
It's explicitly stated to be able to fight the larger classes of titans, and its primary role is killing starships that are much tougher than any titan. And given that it's a much bigger unit it's a safe bet that it has much greater firepower as well.
dusara217 wrote: Now you're just arguing to argue. By you're own admission, you're wrong.
I really have no idea what you're talking about. Mentioning cyclone missile racks is not an admission that your bizarre "every surface of a suit of power armor should be covered in guns" theory is correct.
First of all, it's a hypothesis; I have no experimental data to back it up (I don't know why that distinction bugs me, but it REALLY irks me when people make that mistake). Second of all, at no point did I say taht every surface of Power Armour should be covered in guns. I said that Tactical Dreadnought Armour would be more than capable of fitting additional weapons onto the suit itself. Which you seem to be arguing against without actually giving any arguments that say it wouldn't work. Yes, it would take a lot of work to fit on additional weaponry. Yes, it would take a boatload of man hours. Yes, there are no technical specifications about the suit, which would alert us to the incompatibility of the suit with chassis-mounted weaponry. However, none of this mean that it isn't possible.
Also, ghillie suits have very little in common with the technology of camo cloaks. Ghillie suits are fixed comouflage that require very specific locations to work correctly. However, with Camo cloaks, you could literally stand up against a wall and turn the exact color, texture, etc. of the wall. At night, you would be as black as the area around you, or as foliage-like as the foliage you need to hide in.
Sigh. The point is that they function the same. They're more advanced because they can change colors to work in different environments instead of being a single suit that is worthless when you go from a forest into a ruined building. But they still work like real-world camo gear, they make you the same color as your background so you blend in better. This is supported by your own quotes, where it talks about how skilled users can be nearly invisible. If camo cloaks worked like Tau stealth fields then skill would be irrelevant, you simply turn it on and disappear. A Remora drone isn't a highly-trained stealth specialist, it's a floating automated gun platform with a stealth field bolted on.
No, skill most definitely is relevant. When you see that invisible guy making boot-prints in the dirt, and you know that this technology exists, it's pretty dang obvious what's going on. When somebody's trying to be stealthy, and they don't know how to move quietly, they will, more than likely, be discovered (as there is nothing stated about the Tau Stealth tech that mentions avoiding Thermals imaging, infrared, etc.). However, I do see your point about the camouflage being camouflage regardless of how advanced it is.
Given that there are no fluff examples of fights between the two units I have no idea how you are coming to this conclusion, other than a comparison of game mechanics where the Warhound wins because its rules are blatantly overpowered.
I'm just going to sum up everything about the Tau Titan right here:
1.) my mistake about the engineer
2.) I'm starting to feel like you aren't reading the arguments of the person you are arguing with. I specifically said that I compared the in-fluff weapons given to the Warhound and the Supremacy Armour, I compared the in-fluff cited speeds of them ("slow" compared with "fastest Imperial Titan" (if Mechanicum is a good source, or the Priests of Mars)), in-fluff cited armour levels, and in-fluff cited weaponry. They've got comparable in-fluff weaponry. Comparable armour. However, the Warhound's ambush capabilities and speed give it the edge
deadairis wrote: In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.
This argument fails when you consider the Necrons, who have a similar lack of concern for turning technology into religious rituals but have been ignoring the supposed consequences for longer than humanity has existed. The obvious answer here is that sensible engineering works just fine in 40k, and the Imperium is just too stupid to do it.
Yes, it seems highly unlikley that Xenso tech is like this, considering the fact that the Eldar have never worshiped their tech for 65 Million Years without any negative repurcussions.
Considering how the Warp works, however, the sheer energies given off from worshiping the objects would more than likely provide Machine Spirits for most of them, which could, more than likely, cause issues with the machinery itself, should you fail to properly praise it. Which means that the simple act of the AdMech's worshiping causes machine-spirits to appear, and makes their lore true.
dusara217 wrote: Now you're just arguing to argue. By you're own admission, you're wrong.
I really have no idea what you're talking about. Mentioning cyclone missile racks is not an admission that your bizarre "every surface of a suit of power armor should be covered in guns" theory is correct.
First of all, it's a hypothesis; I have no experimental data to back it up (I don't know why that distinction bugs me, but it REALLY irks me when people make that mistake). Second of all, at no point did I say taht every surface of Power Armour should be covered in guns. I said that Tactical Dreadnought Armour would be more than capable of fitting additional weapons onto the suit itself. Which you seem to be arguing against without actually giving any arguments that say it wouldn't work. Yes, it would take a lot of work to fit on additional weaponry. Yes, it would take a boatload of man hours. Yes, there are no technical specifications about the suit, which would alert us to the incompatibility of the suit with chassis-mounted weaponry. However, none of this mean that it isn't possible.
Also, ghillie suits have very little in common with the technology of camo cloaks. Ghillie suits are fixed comouflage that require very specific locations to work correctly. However, with Camo cloaks, you could literally stand up against a wall and turn the exact color, texture, etc. of the wall. At night, you would be as black as the area around you, or as foliage-like as the foliage you need to hide in.
Sigh. The point is that they function the same. They're more advanced because they can change colors to work in different environments instead of being a single suit that is worthless when you go from a forest into a ruined building. But they still work like real-world camo gear, they make you the same color as your background so you blend in better. This is supported by your own quotes, where it talks about how skilled users can be nearly invisible. If camo cloaks worked like Tau stealth fields then skill would be irrelevant, you simply turn it on and disappear. A Remora drone isn't a highly-trained stealth specialist, it's a floating automated gun platform with a stealth field bolted on.
No, skill most definitely is relevant. When you see that invisible guy making boot-prints in the dirt, and you know that this technology exists, it's pretty dang obvious what's going on. When somebody's trying to be stealthy, and they don't know how to move quietly, they will, more than likely, be discovered (as there is nothing stated about the Tau Stealth tech that mentions avoiding Thermals imaging, infrared, etc.). However, I do see your point about the camouflage being camouflage regardless of how advanced it is.
Given that there are no fluff examples of fights between the two units I have no idea how you are coming to this conclusion, other than a comparison of game mechanics where the Warhound wins because its rules are blatantly overpowered.
I'm just going to sum up everything about the Tau Titan right here:
1.) my mistake about the engineer
2.) I'm starting to feel like you aren't reading the arguments of the person you are arguing with. I specifically said that I compared the in-fluff weapons given to the Warhound and the Supremacy Armour, I compared the in-fluff cited speeds of them ("slow" compared with "fastest Imperial Titan" (if Mechanicum is a good source, or the Priests of Mars)), in-fluff cited armour levels, and in-fluff cited weaponry. They've got comparable in-fluff weaponry. Comparable armour. However, the Warhound's ambush capabilities and speed give it the edge
deadairis wrote: In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.
This argument fails when you consider the Necrons, who have a similar lack of concern for turning technology into religious rituals but have been ignoring the supposed consequences for longer than humanity has existed. The obvious answer here is that sensible engineering works just fine in 40k, and the Imperium is just too stupid to do it.
Yes, it seems highly unlikley that Xenso tech is like this, considering the fact that the Eldar have never worshiped their tech for 65 Million Years without any negative repurcussions.
Considering how the Warp works, however, the sheer energies given off from worshiping the objects would more than likely provide Machine Spirits for most of them, which could, more than likely, cause issues with the machinery itself, should you fail to properly praise it. Which means that the simple act of the AdMech's worshiping causes machine-spirits to appear, and makes their lore true.
Alternatively, machine spirits exist as AI fragments from the DAoT, and have incorporated themselves into STC patterns, which is why every machine has a spirit, and not just the older, more powerful ones.
dusara217 wrote: Now you're just arguing to argue. By you're own admission, you're wrong.
I really have no idea what you're talking about. Mentioning cyclone missile racks is not an admission that your bizarre "every surface of a suit of power armor should be covered in guns" theory is correct.
First of all, it's a hypothesis; I have no experimental data to back it up (I don't know why that distinction bugs me, but it REALLY irks me when people make that mistake). Second of all, at no point did I say taht every surface of Power Armour should be covered in guns. I said that Tactical Dreadnought Armour would be more than capable of fitting additional weapons onto the suit itself. Which you seem to be arguing against without actually giving any arguments that say it wouldn't work. Yes, it would take a lot of work to fit on additional weaponry. Yes, it would take a boatload of man hours. Yes, there are no technical specifications about the suit, which would alert us to the incompatibility of the suit with chassis-mounted weaponry. However, none of this mean that it isn't possible.
Also, ghillie suits have very little in common with the technology of camo cloaks. Ghillie suits are fixed comouflage that require very specific locations to work correctly. However, with Camo cloaks, you could literally stand up against a wall and turn the exact color, texture, etc. of the wall. At night, you would be as black as the area around you, or as foliage-like as the foliage you need to hide in.
Sigh. The point is that they function the same. They're more advanced because they can change colors to work in different environments instead of being a single suit that is worthless when you go from a forest into a ruined building. But they still work like real-world camo gear, they make you the same color as your background so you blend in better. This is supported by your own quotes, where it talks about how skilled users can be nearly invisible. If camo cloaks worked like Tau stealth fields then skill would be irrelevant, you simply turn it on and disappear. A Remora drone isn't a highly-trained stealth specialist, it's a floating automated gun platform with a stealth field bolted on.
No, skill most definitely is relevant. When you see that invisible guy making boot-prints in the dirt, and you know that this technology exists, it's pretty dang obvious what's going on. When somebody's trying to be stealthy, and they don't know how to move quietly, they will, more than likely, be discovered (as there is nothing stated about the Tau Stealth tech that mentions avoiding Thermals imaging, infrared, etc.). However, I do see your point about the camouflage being camouflage regardless of how advanced it is.
Given that there are no fluff examples of fights between the two units I have no idea how you are coming to this conclusion, other than a comparison of game mechanics where the Warhound wins because its rules are blatantly overpowered.
I'm just going to sum up everything about the Tau Titan right here:
1.) my mistake about the engineer
2.) I'm starting to feel like you aren't reading the arguments of the person you are arguing with. I specifically said that I compared the in-fluff weapons given to the Warhound and the Supremacy Armour, I compared the in-fluff cited speeds of them ("slow" compared with "fastest Imperial Titan" (if Mechanicum is a good source, or the Priests of Mars)), in-fluff cited armour levels, and in-fluff cited weaponry. They've got comparable in-fluff weaponry. Comparable armour. However, the Warhound's ambush capabilities and speed give it the edge
deadairis wrote: In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.
This argument fails when you consider the Necrons, who have a similar lack of concern for turning technology into religious rituals but have been ignoring the supposed consequences for longer than humanity has existed. The obvious answer here is that sensible engineering works just fine in 40k, and the Imperium is just too stupid to do it.
Yes, it seems highly unlikley that Xenso tech is like this, considering the fact that the Eldar have never worshiped their tech for 65 Million Years without any negative repurcussions.
Considering how the Warp works, however, the sheer energies given off from worshiping the objects would more than likely provide Machine Spirits for most of them, which could, more than likely, cause issues with the machinery itself, should you fail to properly praise it. Which means that the simple act of the AdMech's worshiping causes machine-spirits to appear, and makes their lore true.
Alternatively, machine spirits exist as AI fragments from the DAoT, and have incorporated themselves into STC patterns, which is why every machine has a spirit, and not just the older, more powerful ones.
Alternatively, machine spirits exist as AI fragments from the DAoT, and have incorporated themselves into STC patterns, which is why every machine has a spirit, and not just the older, more powerful ones.
Honestly, this pretty much sums up my headcanon on Machine Spirits.
A machine spirit is not necessarily an AI, just a fragment of one or a very basic imitation of one that has the potential to become a fully fledged AI should it gain the processing power needed to sustain higher level thought functions. They are built into the STCs themselves as an integrated micromanagement system. Why let the operator worry about the internals when you can have a self-correcting intelligent program do it for you? Those one-in-a-million shots you get from random guardsmen who are trying to hold the line against impossible odds? That's the Lasgun's machine spirit pulling just enough processing power out of the integrated cogitators to help said guardsman put a beam solidly through a Hive Tyrant's eye socket and fry its entire brain. A machine spirit is intensely, fiercely loyal to the person who looks after it, and will do its best to ensure that its owner will survive no matter what. Very optimistic and full of speculation, I know, but this - to me - makes sense.
The story behind this headcanon is probably not fit for this board so I'll stick it somewhere else when I get the time but long story short one of the guys I RP with is a Techpriest and basically makes up gak like this to explain away inconsistencies and nonsense that occur from fluff conflict and he's really rather good at it
Alternatively, machine spirits exist as AI fragments from the DAoT, and have incorporated themselves into STC patterns, which is why every machine has a spirit, and not just the older, more powerful ones.
Honestly, this pretty much sums up my headcanon on Machine Spirits.
A machine spirit is not necessarily an AI, just a fragment of one or a very basic imitation of one that has the potential to become a fully fledged AI should it gain the processing power needed to sustain higher level thought functions. They are built into the STCs themselves as an integrated micromanagement system. Why let the operator worry about the internals when you can have a self-correcting intelligent program do it for you? Those one-in-a-million shots you get from random guardsmen who are trying to hold the line against impossible odds? That's the Lasgun's machine spirit pulling just enough processing power out of the integrated cogitators to help said guardsman put a beam solidly through a Hive Tyrant's eye socket and fry its entire brain. A machine spirit is intensely, fiercely loyal to the person who looks after it, and will do its best to ensure that its owner will survive no matter what. Very optimistic and full of speculation, I know, but this - to me - makes sense.
The story behind this headcanon is probably not fit for this board so I'll stick it somewhere else when I get the time but long story short one of the guys I RP with is a Techpriest and basically makes up gak like this to explain away inconsistencies and nonsense that occur from fluff conflict and he's really rather good at it
That is a tad optimistic, especially with the stories we have already of corrupted STCs that backfire on creators. Tanks that immediately fire at anything that move once activated, lasguns that explode in the bearer's hands, and so on. I view machine spirits as a lesser form of this corruption.
Alternatively, machine spirits exist as AI fragments from the DAoT, and have incorporated themselves into STC patterns, which is why every machine has a spirit, and not just the older, more powerful ones.
Honestly, this pretty much sums up my headcanon on Machine Spirits.
A machine spirit is not necessarily an AI, just a fragment of one or a very basic imitation of one that has the potential to become a fully fledged AI should it gain the processing power needed to sustain higher level thought functions. They are built into the STCs themselves as an integrated micromanagement system. Why let the operator worry about the internals when you can have a self-correcting intelligent program do it for you? Those one-in-a-million shots you get from random guardsmen who are trying to hold the line against impossible odds? That's the Lasgun's machine spirit pulling just enough processing power out of the integrated cogitators to help said guardsman put a beam solidly through a Hive Tyrant's eye socket and fry its entire brain. A machine spirit is intensely, fiercely loyal to the person who looks after it, and will do its best to ensure that its owner will survive no matter what. Very optimistic and full of speculation, I know, but this - to me - makes sense.
The story behind this headcanon is probably not fit for this board so I'll stick it somewhere else when I get the time but long story short one of the guys I RP with is a Techpriest and basically makes up gak like this to explain away inconsistencies and nonsense that occur from fluff conflict and he's really rather good at it
That is a tad optimistic, especially with the stories we have already of corrupted STCs that backfire on creators. Tanks that immediately fire at anything that move once activated, lasguns that explode in the bearer's hands, and so on. I view machine spirits as a lesser form of this corruption.
Yes, we have stories of Machine Spirits getting pissy and going into full rape-mode (like the Titans in Priests of Mars), but we also have stories of Machine Spirits "loving" their owners and being loyal to them, to a degree (source: Mechanicum,Priests of Mars). This is why the Mechanicum tries to supplicate machine-spirits; they can give you a glorious headshot or explode in your hands because you said the prayer wrong.
Alternatively, machine spirits exist as AI fragments from the DAoT, and have incorporated themselves into STC patterns, which is why every machine has a spirit, and not just the older, more powerful ones.
Honestly, this pretty much sums up my headcanon on Machine Spirits.
A machine spirit is not necessarily an AI, just a fragment of one or a very basic imitation of one that has the potential to become a fully fledged AI should it gain the processing power needed to sustain higher level thought functions. They are built into the STCs themselves as an integrated micromanagement system. Why let the operator worry about the internals when you can have a self-correcting intelligent program do it for you? Those one-in-a-million shots you get from random guardsmen who are trying to hold the line against impossible odds? That's the Lasgun's machine spirit pulling just enough processing power out of the integrated cogitators to help said guardsman put a beam solidly through a Hive Tyrant's eye socket and fry its entire brain. A machine spirit is intensely, fiercely loyal to the person who looks after it, and will do its best to ensure that its owner will survive no matter what. Very optimistic and full of speculation, I know, but this - to me - makes sense.
The story behind this headcanon is probably not fit for this board so I'll stick it somewhere else when I get the time but long story short one of the guys I RP with is a Techpriest and basically makes up gak like this to explain away inconsistencies and nonsense that occur from fluff conflict and he's really rather good at it
That is a tad optimistic, especially with the stories we have already of corrupted STCs that backfire on creators. Tanks that immediately fire at anything that move once activated, lasguns that explode in the bearer's hands, and so on. I view machine spirits as a lesser form of this corruption.
Yes, we have stories of Machine Spirits getting pissy and going into full rape-mode (like the Titans in Priests of Mars), but we also have stories of Machine Spirits "loving" their owners and being loyal to them, to a degree (source: Mechanicum,Priests of Mars). This is why the Mechanicum tries to supplicate machine-spirits; they can give you a glorious headshot or explode in your hands because you said the prayer wrong.
That and said prayer may also be the instructions on how to put the damn thing back together after disassembling it to replace a focusing lens. The Mechanicus lost the manuals several millennia ago. Reciting prayers may be the only way they have of remembering how to put complex machines back together or swapping parts out, in addition to appeasing whatever AI might inhabit the device.
There's a delicious irony to the 'Machine Spirit = Benign AI' theory: the very things the Mechanicus and the Imperium have stated are to be destroyed on discovery are the same things that drive almost every last one of their vehicles, weapons, and possibly even their manufactorums and databases.
That and said prayer may also be the instructions on how to put the damn thing back together after disassembling it to replace a focusing lens. The Mechanicus lost the manuals several millennia ago. Reciting prayers may be the only way they have of remembering how to put complex machines back together or swapping parts out, in addition to appeasing whatever AI might inhabit the device.
There's no maybe about it - it was outright stated that most Mechanicus prayers and rites are the maintenance manuals turned into oral form as a ward against societal collapse.
dusara217 wrote: Now you're just arguing to argue. By you're own admission, you're wrong.
I really have no idea what you're talking about. Mentioning cyclone missile racks is not an admission that your bizarre "every surface of a suit of power armor should be covered in guns" theory is correct.
First of all, it's a hypothesis; I have no experimental data to back it up (I don't know why that distinction bugs me, but it REALLY irks me when people make that mistake). Second of all, at no point did I say taht every surface of Power Armour should be covered in guns. I said that Tactical Dreadnought Armour would be more than capable of fitting additional weapons onto the suit itself. Which you seem to be arguing against without actually giving any arguments that say it wouldn't work. Yes, it would take a lot of work to fit on additional weaponry. Yes, it would take a boatload of man hours. Yes, there are no technical specifications about the suit, which would alert us to the incompatibility of the suit with chassis-mounted weaponry. However, none of this mean that it isn't possible.
Also, ghillie suits have very little in common with the technology of camo cloaks. Ghillie suits are fixed comouflage that require very specific locations to work correctly. However, with Camo cloaks, you could literally stand up against a wall and turn the exact color, texture, etc. of the wall. At night, you would be as black as the area around you, or as foliage-like as the foliage you need to hide in.
Sigh. The point is that they function the same. They're more advanced because they can change colors to work in different environments instead of being a single suit that is worthless when you go from a forest into a ruined building. But they still work like real-world camo gear, they make you the same color as your background so you blend in better. This is supported by your own quotes, where it talks about how skilled users can be nearly invisible. If camo cloaks worked like Tau stealth fields then skill would be irrelevant, you simply turn it on and disappear. A Remora drone isn't a highly-trained stealth specialist, it's a floating automated gun platform with a stealth field bolted on.
No, skill most definitely is relevant. When you see that invisible guy making boot-prints in the dirt, and you know that this technology exists, it's pretty dang obvious what's going on. When somebody's trying to be stealthy, and they don't know how to move quietly, they will, more than likely, be discovered (as there is nothing stated about the Tau Stealth tech that mentions avoiding Thermals imaging, infrared, etc.). However, I do see your point about the camouflage being camouflage regardless of how advanced it is.
Given that there are no fluff examples of fights between the two units I have no idea how you are coming to this conclusion, other than a comparison of game mechanics where the Warhound wins because its rules are blatantly overpowered.
I'm just going to sum up everything about the Tau Titan right here:
1.) my mistake about the engineer
2.) I'm starting to feel like you aren't reading the arguments of the person you are arguing with. I specifically said that I compared the in-fluff weapons given to the Warhound and the Supremacy Armour, I compared the in-fluff cited speeds of them ("slow" compared with "fastest Imperial Titan" (if Mechanicum is a good source, or the Priests of Mars)), in-fluff cited armour levels, and in-fluff cited weaponry. They've got comparable in-fluff weaponry. Comparable armour. However, the Warhound's ambush capabilities and speed give it the edge
deadairis wrote: In which case the lack of immediate issues from using alien tech, the lack of immediate come-uppance for races like the Tau, is no more a sign that there are no consequences for their tech-heresies than the lack of immediate issues from the first few cigarettes.
This argument fails when you consider the Necrons, who have a similar lack of concern for turning technology into religious rituals but have been ignoring the supposed consequences for longer than humanity has existed. The obvious answer here is that sensible engineering works just fine in 40k, and the Imperium is just too stupid to do it.
Yes, it seems highly unlikley that Xenso tech is like this, considering the fact that the Eldar have never worshiped their tech for 65 Million Years without any negative repurcussions.
Considering how the Warp works, however, the sheer energies given off from worshiping the objects would more than likely provide Machine Spirits for most of them, which could, more than likely, cause issues with the machinery itself, should you fail to properly praise it. Which means that the simple act of the AdMech's worshiping causes machine-spirits to appear, and makes their lore true.
Alternatively, machine spirits exist as AI fragments from the DAoT, and have incorporated themselves into STC patterns, which is why every machine has a spirit, and not just the older, more powerful ones.
And also considering how the warp/psykers work, if humanity (which appears to be the most exposed to Warp issues) builds their entire technology base to ensure that it works even when, say, actual literal daemonic possession tries to take it over, they probably have the most to gain.
Other folks have already pointed out that comparisons to the Necrons are false friends because of the 'backed by gods' technology backend. E.g., sure, they don't have rituals -- just one big one, where their technology consumes an entire race's soul. Eldar, similarly, don't operate on a technology base which appears to be vulnerable in the same way which human technology is. Interesting to note that their technology isn't built around 'better science,' though, but simply by saying 'yeah, ghosts. Magic. Psychics. That's technology for you.'
There's no technology that makes it out into 10,000+ years of existence in the setting that doesn't get hit in the face with some need to deal with the fact that 40K is a high magic setting.
Necrons had incredibly technology before they made a deal with the C'tan. They had the ability to build necrodermis, travel to the sun, and communicate with a pure energy being at the very least.
Also, as it says in the Lathes expansion of the RPG and the Ordo Reductor section in Book 4 is that the Mechanicum lost a fair amount of intellectual capability post heresy.
This is due to the large amount of oversight the Inquistion caused, along with the follow on chilling effect. Much like political correctness today limits thought and investigation into certain areas of science (try questioning global warming for one) much of the Mechanicum's progress has been stymed because they are politically incapable of investigating the issue.
Black ops units may exist, but other then the Ordo Reductor their innovations will never be adopted over a wide area.
Martian Ray weapons are superior to Tau pulse weaponry, Legio Cybernetica have superior robots to Tau crisis suits, Myrmadons are statwise walking Broadsides.
Even post heresy the Admech have superior weapons to the Tau. These weapons however are politically reserved for the admech and would never be given to the wider Imperium.
A magos might get a Tau pulse rifle and examine it, but he won't see any reason to replicate it. He already has access to better weapons (hello death rays!). The magos might consider equipping his personal guard with better weapons like the Lathe System lords did, but it is a costly endevor and just isn't done for the wider imperium. That is why the imperium won't ever get better guns.
Durandal wrote: Also, as it says in the Lathes expansion of the RPG and the Ordo Reductor section in Book 4 is that the Mechanicum lost a fair amount of intellectual capability post heresy.
This is due to the large amount of oversight the Inquistion caused, along with the follow on chilling effect. Much like political correctness today limits thought and investigation into certain areas of science (try questioning global warming for one) much of the Mechanicum's progress has been stymed because they are politically incapable of investigating the issue.
Black ops units may exist, but other then the Ordo Reductor their innovations will never be adopted over a wide area.
Martian Ray weapons are superior to Tau pulse weaponry, Legio Cybernetica have superior robots to Tau crisis suits, Myrmadons are statwise walking Broadsides.
Even post heresy the Admech have superior weapons to the Tau. These weapons however are politically reserved for the admech and would never be given to the wider Imperium.
A magos might get a Tau pulse rifle and examine it, but he won't see any reason to replicate it. He already has access to better weapons (hello death rays!). The magos might consider equipping his personal guard with better weapons like the Lathe System lords did, but it is a costly endevor and just isn't done for the wider imperium. That is why the imperium won't ever get better guns.
You make some very valid points (I particularly liked the SocJust parallel), but the Inquisition has very little jurisdiction over the Mechanicus. As the Mars and the other forgeworlds are technically a state of their own, separate from the Imperium, Inquisitorial meddling is not actually legal. That rarely stops Inquisitors, to be sure, but prevents them from using their status to make demands, requisition information or equipment, and so on. The Mechanicus is itself a very religious organization, and has a self-regulatory Inquisitorial equivalent in the form of the Magos Juris. The biggest reason for the loss of tech after the Heresy was the Schism of Mars. The Dark Mechanicus wrecked anything advanced they couldn't take with them, resulting in the loss of a great amount of archeotech. In turn, the loyalist AdMech became much more secretive with their most advanced tech. The reason there are so few Baneblades in the 41st Millennium versus the 31st Millennium, for instance, is because only a select few forgeworlds are given its STC. Potentially, it could be given out to more worlds, but the AdMech don't wish to give out advanced STCs to any entity that has even the smallest chance to turn traitor, as their doing so would bring this technology back into the hands of Chaos forces.
You make some very valid points (I particularly liked the SocJust parallel), but the Inquisition has very little jurisdiction over the Mechanicus. As the Mars and the other forgeworlds are technically a state of their own, separate from the Imperium, Inquisitorial meddling is not actually legal. That rarely stops Inquisitors, to be sure, but prevents them from using their status to make demands, requisition information or equipment, and so on. The Mechanicus is itself a very religious organization, and has a self-regulatory Inquisitorial equivalent in the form of the Magos Juris. The biggest reason for the loss of tech after the Heresy was the Schism of Mars. The Dark Mechanicus wrecked anything advanced they couldn't take with them, resulting in the loss of a great amount of archeotech. In turn, the loyalist AdMech became much more secretive with their most advanced tech. The reason there are so few Baneblades in the 41st Millennium versus the 31st Millennium, for instance, is because only a select few forgeworlds are given its STC. Potentially, it could be given out to more worlds, but the AdMech don't wish to give out advanced STCs to any entity that has even the smallest chance to turn traitor, as their doing so would bring this technology back into the hands of Chaos forces.
The mechanicum's independence eroded with the heresy. The fact that a slight majority of forge worlds favored Horus's cause weakened the remaining loyalist Ad Mech when the imperium was reforged in the scouring, both from a military and political perspective.
From Dark Heresy, the Lathes "…Some of the autonomy of the Adeptus Mechanicus has also been eroded over the millennia. The events of the heresy… have made forge worlds subject to inquisitorial scrutiny on a level unthinkable in the earliest days..Fear of accusations of heresy have limited the dissuasion of ideas to safely prescribed paths."
So there is some level of jurisdiction over the wider Mechanicum in 40k. Either by external forces such as the Inquisiton, or by internal forces like the Lords Dragon, all of which are meant to root out and prevent a second schism. The fear of that schism, and the subsequent loss of what data remains, is why the greater mechanicum accepted such oversight at first, and allowed it to become codified into the general attitudes of the mechanicum. Of course some level of rivalry still exists, and that may inhibit wider dissemination of knowledge, but the question is why wouldn't the Ad Mech take xenos weapons, such as the Tau pulse rifle or Necron gauss guns, and manufacture them on a wide scale. Again, the answer is a combination of the following:
1. Magos have access to superior weapons, and see no need to use Xenos ones.
2. Xenos tech is prohibited due to religious reasons. (Alien tech is not without risks in 40k, much like parasites in pigs back in B.C.)
3. Using Xenos tech is admitting it is superior to mankind, an idea that is considered heretical by the Mechanicus and wider Imperium and violates the Universal Laws.
4. Using Xenos tech attracts Inquisitional attention, which is also bad for your health in the wider imperium.
5. Producing Xenos tech requires "perversion" of sacred forges and autofacs to manufacture "unclean" designs rather then blessed designs.
6. Xenos designs have unknown rituals of maintenance and operation. Tau Auxiliaries can use Tau weapons, but when your gun can eat your soul, you get picky about which one you use.
So while there are small groups that study and innovate, they are a tiny fraction compared to the wider imperium and Ad Mech.
The reason is that technology as we know it (= the manipulation of natural laws to produce a desired result) does not exist in 40K, except for open or closet heretics. The functioning of machines is seen as the operation of supernatural forces, not natural ones. So this is asking why Christians do not try to reverse engineer demons.
). Although tau stuff is certainly more common, relatively speaking, as there a few 
