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Bobug wrote: This thread is pretty much boiling down to "i like this faction more, so they win" :s
This is pretty much point of WH40k. There's no "official" canon, just pieces and everyone creates their own "official" version of canon.
Bobug wrote: Has anyone read the 3rd edition tau codex? it has quite a bit of information on tau technology AND it is presented from an imperial point of view. There is even a letter from a tech priest where he admits that tau technology "matches and occasionally exceeds imperial manufacture.." but he quickly justifies it with "It displays none of the proper obesiances to the holy spirit of the machine god" He then goes on to recommend that tau technology is immediately destroyed if captured. Perhaps this is the reason for the lack of tau reverse engineering? Maybe they present the most danger to tech heresy because their tech works in the most logical way to humans, without the speudoscience of the necrons and the psychic do-hickery of the eldar.
Just pointing out that it depends on Tech Priest, as some are more liberal than others. Some view tech other than STC completely heretical, whereas some convert xenos tech to Imperial use (This may also be due to the lack of official stance from GW writers).
Bobug wrote: Crisis armour DOES afford more protection than power armour. However the standard XV8 model does not contain the life support facilities that I believe is present in power armour, although the coldstar and the vanguard (which does exist, it is a battlesuit given to teams exploring space hulks) Do. All suits do have a more advanced sensor/scanner suite than astartes power armour however.
I believe the statement that Crisis battlesuits offer the same amount of protection as Power Armor was derived from the fact that both confer a 3+ armor save. While I am not generally fond of using game stats in terms of fluff (PA doesn't randomly fail one time out of three), I would say that weapon and armor values are good for making rough comparisons between wargear.
When the only tool you have is a Skyhammer, every army begins to resemble a nail.
You clearly don't understand how Imperial technology works. Its not as simple as welding on a SAM rack and a radar onto a Rhino. If you just took a random piece of radar technology and a random SAM system and did that you are likely to offend the Rhino's machine spirit causing the new invention to not work at all, explode when you try to fire it or even have it turn on it's creators. Innovations in the Imperium have to be carefully considered by the AdMech otherwise it could lead to disastrous results. If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
Not really. 99% of all mentions of tech spirits in Imperial fluff is a tongue-in-cheek dig at the deeply superstitious nature of the 40k humans.
The situation is just confusing as there are actual "tech spirits" mentioned like the controlling mechanism of the land-raider, which can actually operate semi-autonomously for periods. But most Imperial malfunctions are attributed to angered spirits just like how midieval humans thought evil spirits caused horrible things to happen, from broken swords to sickness.
The whole issue is a fault of the writers using 'machine/tech' spirits interchangeably for multiple things for 35 years.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
EmpNortonII wrote: No, I wasn't. It's straight out of the last Marine codex. They couldn't invent it and had to find an STC for it.
Land Raider Crusader. No, wait.
Land Raider Aries. How does that fit into your neat little fiction?
Made from spare Vindicator parts that may have been designed with cross-compatibility in mind to begin with? It shows where the boundary is between "what the most competent engineers in the Imperium can do under pressure" and "this is too hard for the Imperium to ever manage without an STC (Whirlwind Hunter)."
You clearly don't understand how Imperial technology works. Its not as simple as welding on a SAM rack and a radar onto a Rhino. If you just took a random piece of radar technology and a random SAM system and did that you are likely to offend the Rhino's machine spirit causing the new invention to not work at all, explode when you try to fire it or even have it turn on it's creators. Innovations in the Imperium have to be carefully considered by the AdMech otherwise it could lead to disastrous results. If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
Not really. 99% of all mentions of tech spirits in Imperial fluff is a tongue-in-cheek dig at the deeply superstitious nature of the 40k humans.
The situation is just confusing as there are actual "tech spirits" mentioned like the controlling mechanism of the land-raider, which can actually operate semi-autonomously for periods. But most Imperial malfunctions are attributed to angered spirits just like how midieval humans thought evil spirits caused horrible things to happen, from broken swords to sickness.
The whole issue is a fault of the writers using 'machine/tech' spirits interchangeably for multiple things for 35 years.
What if...everything does have a tech spirit? Don't they just mass produce everything based on a STC, without really knowing what they contain? Perhaps the simple lasgun does have some rudimentary AI, that assists with targeting, heating ect.
Or it could be that the techpriests simply don't know what has a techspirit and what doesn't, so to play it safe they treat everything as though it has a spirit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/17 16:36:36
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
I think its more like taking the inscription of Viking futhark runes into weapons to please the weapon's 'spirit' into doing what you need in battle, but applying them to an Abrams tank on the skirting/engine/cannon for the desired results. Not because it works mechanically, but because millenia of dogmatic belief makes you fear what might happen the one time you DON'T do it.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
You clearly don't understand how Imperial technology works. Its not as simple as welding on a SAM rack and a radar onto a Rhino. If you just took a random piece of radar technology and a random SAM system and did that you are likely to offend the Rhino's machine spirit causing the new invention to not work at all, explode when you try to fire it or even have it turn on it's creators. Innovations in the Imperium have to be carefully considered by the AdMech otherwise it could lead to disastrous results. If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
Not really. 99% of all mentions of tech spirits in Imperial fluff is a tongue-in-cheek dig at the deeply superstitious nature of the 40k humans.
The situation is just confusing as there are actual "tech spirits" mentioned like the controlling mechanism of the land-raider, which can actually operate semi-autonomously for periods. But most Imperial malfunctions are attributed to angered spirits just like how midieval humans thought evil spirits caused horrible things to happen, from broken swords to sickness.
The whole issue is a fault of the writers using 'machine/tech' spirits interchangeably for multiple things for 35 years.
Alright, but my point still stands. You can't just add machine parts together with Imperial tech willy nilly. It could end really badly if you tried to do that which is why the AdMech discourages such things.
EmpNortonII wrote: No, I wasn't. It's straight out of the last Marine codex. They couldn't invent it and had to find an STC for it.
Land Raider Crusader. No, wait.
Land Raider Aries. How does that fit into your neat little fiction?
Made from spare Vindicator parts that may have been designed with cross-compatibility in mind to begin with? It shows where the boundary is between "what the most competent engineers in the Imperium can do under pressure" and "this is too hard for the Imperium to ever manage without an STC (Whirlwind Hunter)."
The Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Macharius are still counterexamples even if that was true.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/17 16:47:50
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
dusara217 wrote: WHY DO THEY ONLY USE 2 GUNS ON A PLATFORM THAT COULD FIT DOZENS OF THEM.
Because there's more to weapon choices than "how many square inches does this have, and how many guns can I bolt to them". Power consumption, ammo storage, etc, are much more relevant than how many guns a unit is physically capable of carrying.
Right, because sticking a few shoulder-mounted missile launchers onto (a la Tau Battlesuit) would really cause the entire machine to malfunction and murder its wearer.
-Crisis suits are only as protective as Power Armour, as they only protect against small arms fire, much like Imperial Power Armour does (Battlesuits). They're meant to be the Tau all-around Battlesuit, but aren't nearly as agile and versatile as standard Space Marine Power Armour (which is less bulky,
Remember the part where they can fly? How exactly is that less agile than power armor? And where did you get the idea that they're no more durable than power armor? Compared to a space marine the crisis suit is faster, vastly more mobile, more durable, and armed with much more powerful weapons.
I don't think that you understand the concept of "agility". Here, let me explain it to you. It's akin to being deft, nimble, well-coordinated. The Crisis Battlesuit is too bulky and cumbersome to be as agile as Imperial Power Armour, though it does provide better strength. It also is no better at flying as Power Armour, as Power Armour was designed to have attachments such as jump packs, or maneuvering jets for EVA space walks. Also, ]Crisis Battlesuits.
Although the armour provides superior protection against most small arms, it is no defence against heavier weapons such assault cannons and lascannons which penetrate right through.[4]
It's cited, which means that it's probably true.
-The Stealth Battlesuit utilizes holographs to make them harder to see. This could easily be done by Imperials, they just don't do it, because Camo-Cloaks already get the job done quite well. They really do the same thing as Camo Cloaks, just using a different means of doing so.
Stealth fields make the unit invisible. As in, there's a Remora done hovering nearby aiming its guns at you, and you'll never know until you're already dead. Camo cloaks just make you harder to spot, and only if you're stationary and hiding under the cloak.
As with other battlesuits the XV15 incorporates multi-spectrum sensors and recoil absorption technology, but in addition it is also equipped with a jetpack and stealth field generator, a holographic disruption field making the suit harder to spot.
Broadside Battlesuits are just Crisis Suits with more heavy weapons. That means that they are no more protective than Space Marine Power Armour. A bit like a glass cannon, really.
The suit's integrated holographic disruption field achieves its effects through a number of disruptor emitter nodes arrayed all over the Battlesuit's armour.
Camo-cloaks are hooded cloaks composed of a mesh backing, woven with thousands of ribbons of colour shifting and light-absorbing material,[3] weaved for its durability and ability to help hide the wearer. The Camo Cloak is coated with an absorbent material called Cameoline which takes on the colouration of the surroundings giving, the wearer a great deal of individual concealment and when used by elite stealth experts such as Chief Scout Sergeant Oan Mkoll can give the wearer near perfect concealment.[1]
Why did I use the Wiki? Because it may be unreliable, but it's unlikely that both Lexicanum and Wiki will concur and still be wrong. If they are, then prove them wrong. Where's your source?
Spoiler:
Broadsides are more durable than crisis suits. The extra armor is part of why they don't have jetpacks.
I re-read up on that, and it's more like Terminator Armour than Power Armour, in terms of protection (surviving autocannons, and the like). My mistake.
- Riptide: The most expensive walker of all time. It's basically just a flying Terminator (from what I've read on various websites).
...
No, it's way bigger and tougher than a terminator, and carries a much more powerful weapon.
Really? Because it's stats are the same (tabletop wise), and both virtually identical feats under their belt (such as surviving direct armour-piercing missile blasts or Plasma shots to the face). If I'm wrong, then prove it. Stop making wild assertions without backing them up. What's your source?
- Vanguard Void Battlesuit: Battlesuit meant for Void infantry combat. Yet more evidence of the Crisis Battlesuit's lack of versatility (in comparison to Imperial Power Armour)
It's no such thing. Standard power armor is worthless for void combat because it has no maneuvering thrusters. So if you want to fight effectively in space (and not just places where you can't breathe the air) you need power armor variants.
Yeah, right, because Power Armour definitely wasn't designed with Mag-Lock Boots, hours of oxygen, power sources for jump packs/ maneuverability jets at all. Oh, wait, yes it was!
-Ta-unar Supremacy Armour: A really slow Tau version of a Titan. It's got the biggest guns they can fit on a mobile land vehicle, with the best protection they can give a mobile land vehicle. It's the best the Tau can do, and it's basically just a really slow Warhound Titan. Seriously. This is the best that the Tau can do. Even the Warhound, the literal weakest of Imperial Battletitans, isn't weaker than this. It's weapons are basically just Warhound weapons that use different technologies to accomplish the same results, only with less versatility.
Ever hear of the Manta? The Tau don't waste resources on bigger titans, they just bring down spacecraft from orbit and kill you with them. You really shouldn't be praising the Imperium's idiotic obsession with making giant walking cathedrals.
Few points, Volkatie weaponry is really nothing like pulse tech. Vokite is more similar to ion weaponry than anything. Although, IIRC, they stopped equipping SMs with them sometime after(?) the great crusade because they couldn't keep up with demand..
Volkite weapons were fazed out during the Great Crusade because of their difficulty of manufacture. And, while Volkite weapons aren't really an equivalent of Pulse Rifles (poor comparison, I know), but humans already have significantly more powerful Plasma weaponry, it would be a simple matter to simply utilize smaller amounts of matter in said plasma weaponry, and thus have less Plasma
Oh, yes, they definitly have more powerful stuff, there is not denying that. The imperiums maximum tech level is far beyond the tau's. I just thought it wasn't a really good comparison.
Source on harder to manufacture or less understood? It's plasma tech, it's pretty well understood. And I seriously doubt the tau invest more in their FWs than the imperium does in SMs.
Are you seriously going to argue this point? Lasguns are the easiest weapons to manufacture ever, that's the whole premise of the lasgun.
you said bolt weapons, not lasguns. A mis-type on your part?
Camo-cloaks really aren't like tau stealth tech at all. Camo-cloaks are active camo, tau stealth tech has light being bend around you, complete invisibility, with jammers playing havoc with the full EM spectrum, blocking almost all detection. They are similar in purpose, but not how they work. Not really a direct comparison at all. I'm unsure if tau have any active camo, at the very least it was never mentioned. Although they probably do, I mean we are working on it now.
You must have misread my post. People said that Imperials did not have stealth technology, while the Tau did. I countered that by using Camo-Cloaks as an example of Imperial stealth tech.
Ah, my mistake
Tau warp tech is gak, and will always be gak, but that's more a physiological problem than a technology one. Without navigators, the imperium is in the same place as the tau, warp-wise.
This has never been an issue, why did you even bring it up?
Well, you did, essentialy. I was just responding.
As far as walkers go, they are about evenly matched, although the imperium does tend to go the bigger is better route (I'm convinced that the emperor is was compensating for something ). Although tau stuff is certainly more common, relatively speaking, as there a few SMs, and even fewer SM walkers. The real comparison would be walkers like sentinels, but they serve a different purpose, so are not really comparable.
Imperial exoskeletons are way more advanced than that of the Tau. They have exoskeletons for virtually every every situation. Let's see here:
- Power Armour: Highly versatile, great for combat in hostile environments, protection from 99% of small arms fire, including some Armor Piercing weapons. You can even use this stuff as a Space Suit or for Void Ship maintenance. AdMech idiocy being what it is, they opted against adding shoulder-mounted Plasma guns or rocket launchers or Iron Man missile launcher wrists. Because grimderp.
- Plasma Reactor Maintenance Suits: These are exoskeletons used to go inside of the reactor cores of Plasma Reactors. These are basically the original Terminator suits
- Tactical Dreadnought Armour: A form of the plasma reactor suit that was adapted for warfare. It can literally withstand temperatures that are literally impossible to be withstood by any kind of real life metallic alloys. This thing should be impenetrable by anything but Necron Gauss weapons, because those deconstruct the very molecules of the armour. Not only that, Imperial Power Armour technology is incorporated, as well, and it significantly enhances strength of the wearer, and ( (if Fulgrim is to be believed)still allows Space Marines to be extremely agile while wearing them. The Imperium being as idiotic as it is, they decided not to give it some awesome shoulder-mounted Plasma Cannons and arm-Assault-Cannons, because grimderp. Stoopid GW...
- Dreadnought Armour: A tank with legs. This is basically just intended to make those poor quadriplegic Space Marines feel less useless. Everything a dreadnought does, a tank or a Knight Titan can do better. This is just a Space Marine wheelchair with armour plating and explosives.
- Exo-Armour: Power Armour for midgets. This was designed for use in underground tunnels.
- Centurion Armour: fills the niche between TDA and Dreadnoughts. This is the armour intended to make Space Marines into walking tanks. Basically, Space Marines are bigger, badder, with bigger guns. Like, this should be able to allow Space Marines to dual-wield Assault Cannons while firing shoulder-mounted Plasma Cannons and wrist-mounted Storm Bolters. But it doesn't, because GW writers are idiots, and don't comprehend the fact that these are tanks with multiple limbs. Seriously. There should be dozens of guns on these things. WHY DO THEY ONLY USE 2 GUNS ON A PLATFORM THAT COULD FIT DOZENS OF THEM. JUST. WHY?!?!?!
- Dragon Scale Power Armour: The only Power Armour that the AdMech actually decided to pimp out. It's powered by the wearer's own implants; making it usable only by members of the Martian priesthood, or people with a gak-ton of expensive-ass implants. Of course, it's used exclusively used by ordinary humans, so it's not nearly as powerful or protective as any of the afore-mentioned types of Power Armour.
LethalShade wrote: Well, Volkite weaponry is from the Dark Age of Technology/Age of Strife, as are many Imperial OPplznerf weapons.
Imperial Stealth technology is inferior to Tau one, because you actually need to wear the cloak, which restricts your movements.
Tau battlesuits are way more agile than Dreadnoughts.
Tau Battlesuits don't even come close to being on par with Dreadnoughts. That's like comparing an APC to a Tank.
Not really. Not at all in fact. In fact, battlesuits can pack some pretty powerful weaponry, and the broadsides trades jetpacks to be just as tough as dreadnoughts, with guns that put some actual tank weapons to shame (at least in fluff, the HRR is pretty gak in TT). But without that whole "nearly dead SM" thing. And then you look at stuff like XV9s, XV10s, ect.
Spoiler:
After brushing up on my Battlesuit fluff, I've realized that every model of Battlesuit is incredibly specialized.
-Crisis suits are only as protective as Power Armour, as they only protect against small arms fire, much like Imperial Power Armour does (Battlesuits). They're meant to be the Tau all-around Battlesuit, but aren't nearly as agile and versatile as standard Space Marine
Power Armour (which is less bulky,
Similar, but a bit differnt. They it's less powered armor, and more mini-meh, directly linked into the piolet. Plus jetpacks will make them more agile then SMs, if not as reactive.
-The Stealth Battlesuit utilizes holographs to make them harder to see. This could easily be done by Imperials, they just don't do it, because Camo-Cloaks already get the job done quite well. They really do the same thing as Camo Cloaks, just using a different means of doing so.
It's a bit more than hologaphs, but it's the general idea. The main thing is that imperials do not have some really availablr now. At least as far as the fluff I have read is conserned. They will heve definitly ha is at some powint (STCs and what have you), but I doubt they have the ability to make it now.
- Broadside Battlesuits are just Crisis Suits with more heavy weapons. That means that they are no more protective than Space Marine Power Armour. A bit like a glass cannon, really.
No, ther armour is as protective as terminator armour. They gave it an extra layer of plating because it coult not avoid shots like the crisis
- Hazard Close Support Armour: It's basically a Broadside with better armour. This is comparable with Space Marine Centurion Armour. It features a reinforcorced chassis, so less of a glass cannon, and short-ranged, really powerful weaponry.
ehh, sort of? IT's tougher, but doesn't have as good armour.
- Riptide: The most expensive walker of all time. It's basically just a flying Terminator (from what I've read on various websites).
actually, quite a bit more. This things is like a small knight. Not quit as tough, but that's the general idea. They have been known to tank deathstrike missiles.
- R'vana: Fast Dreadnoughts. Plain and simple.
- Vanguard Void Battlesuit: Battlesuit meant for Void infantry combat. Yet more evidence of the Crisis Battlesuit's lack of versatility (in comparison to Imperial Power Armour)
Not reall, you also have o bring up the new crisis verinent built for space, the coldstar. The only real differnce is that they had to instal 360 thrusters so it could still use it's jetpack. the vangaurd is designed for spacehulks, it's basicaly a tau terminaor is a metric butt-load of guns
- Stormsurge: A walking cannon. With power issues that no Imperial walker
power issues. I'm unsure, but I don't think so. The only one that seems to have any is the ruptide, and that's only when you overcharge it.
-Ta-unar Supremacy Armour: A really slow Tau version of a Titan. It's got the biggest guns they can fit on a mobile land vehicle, with the best protection they can give a mobile land vehicle. It's the best the Tau can do, and it's basically just a really slow Warhound Titan. Seriously. This is the best that the Tau can do. Even the Warhound, the literal weakest of Imperial Battletitans, isn't weaker than this. It's weapons are basically just Warhound weapons that use different technologies to accomplish the same results, only with less versatility.
This I will agree. But, at least for a long time, it was a matter of the tau code of war. Tau didn't make big walkers, even the riptide and it's variants were a stretch, and this was completely out of the blue. We may, eventually see larger, but at this point the tau'nar is very new both in reality and the fluff. It's them essentualy testing if big walkers will work for them
See red text.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
@Co'tor Shas: Terminators can literally survive the heat of a sun. The chassis it's based upon was designed to be impervious to Plasma. Basically, TDA and Riptides have the same stats tabletop-wise, and have equivalent feats in the lore. As for Stormsurges: Yes, I was mistaken about that one. I misread an articles or two. Turns out it's just got a couple of reactors that take an age and a half to recharge or power up. Also, I compared both Boltguns and Lasguns to Pulse Weapons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/17 18:34:58
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
dusara217 wrote: @Co'tor Shas: Terminators can literally survive the heat of a sun. The chassis it's based upon was designed to be impervious to Plasma. Basically, TDA and Riptides have the same stats tabletop-wise, and have equivalent feats in the lore.
As for Stormsurges: Yes, I was mistaken about that one. I misread an articles or two. Turns out it's just got a couple of reactors that take an age and a half to recharge or power up.
Also, I compared both Boltguns and Lasguns to Pulse Weapons.
Well, armour wise TDA and Riptides are about the same. Everywhere else. no. It takes a hell of a lot more to bring down riptides (as most of it is mechnaical, unlike TDA where you still have only a space marine underneath. And riptides have a pretty devastating arsenal.
For storm surges, still, where are you getting this info? I don't think we even had the WD yet, do we?
Ah, I only say the boltgun. I'd say produciton wise they are between lasguns (dirt cheap and easy to make) and boltguns (relics who can have histories dating back thousands of years), but that could be said of most weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm going to say this again, as I have said a thouand times at this point, the imperium has a far higher base tech than the tau, but a lower median tech level.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/17 18:46:26
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
TheCustomLime wrote: You clearly don't understand how Imperial technology works. Its not as simple as welding on a SAM rack and a radar onto a Rhino. If you just took a random piece of radar technology and a random SAM system and did that you are likely to offend the Rhino's machine spirit causing the new invention to not work at all, explode when you try to fire it or even have it turn on it's creators.
Which is a pretty clear concession that Imperial technology sucks.
If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
If that's the best examples you can provide then I think we've finished this debate. The Macharius took centuries of work to get a tank that would be obsolete by WWII standards. The Predator Annihilator is just a regular Predator with its gun swapped for lascannons. The LR Crusader/Redeemer are just regular Land Raiders with different guns in their sponson mounts. The Razorback is just a Rhino with a sentry gun bolted to the roof (quite literally, if you use the FW Razorback turrets). The fact that these are considered major accomplishments by Imperial standards pretty strongly suggests that the Imperium isn't capable of doing anything more difficult.
dusara217 wrote: Right, because sticking a few shoulder-mounted missile launchers onto (a la Tau Battlesuit) would really cause the entire machine to malfunction and murder its wearer.
How much do those launchers weigh? How much ammunition can you carry for them? Will a bulky box of missiles restrict the armor's movement? Is it a good idea to put all of your eggs in one basket, or should those missiles be given to a different unit instead? Again, there's much more to how you choose weapons than "how many square inches of space does this have", and there's a reason why real-world tanks don't have weapons bolted to every possible surface.
{stealth tech} Where's your source?
The Aeronautica Imperialis book where the Remora stealth drone was introduced mentions them being invisible in clear skies. No terrain to hide behind or blend in with, and you still can't see the Remora. And, unlike camo cloaks, Tau stealth fields don't require any skill from the user to blend in with their surroundings. You simply switch it on, and suddenly your unit is invisible.
Really? Because it's stats are the same (tabletop wise), and both virtually identical feats under their belt (such as surviving direct armour-piercing missile blasts or Plasma shots to the face). If I'm wrong, then prove it. Stop making wild assertions without backing them up. What's your source?
...
Have you even read the Tau codex? The Riptide is a T6 MC, the terminator is a one-wound infantry model with a better armor save. If you're seriously disputing the fact that Riptides are tougher than terminators then I don't really know what to say.
Yeah, right, because Power Armour definitely wasn't designed with Mag-Lock Boots, hours of oxygen, power sources for jump packs/ maneuverability jets at all. Oh, wait, yes it was!
The point is that those things aren't standard equipment. And magnetic boots aren't all that impressive in void combat, where you need to be able to maneuver in all three dimensions and not be constrained to walking on an appropriate surface.
I said they don't make larger titans. Unfortunately we're stuck with this one, but fluff-wise it's explicitly a very rare unit produced in limited numbers by one rogue engineer. The primary titan-scale units for the Tau are the railgun Tigershark and the Manta. And let's not forget that the railgun Tigershark is capable of blowing away a Warhound in one strafing run. Or that the Manta is a small spacecraft (complete with independent FTL, etc) armed with railguns intended to engage starships, not mere titans. The fact that the Tau aren't stupid enough to make a bunch of giant walking cathedrals does not mean that they are unable to match Imperial titans.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/17 19:47:29
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Oh yeah, Imperial tech sucks and is totally bass ackwards. I was just saying that it isn't as easy to innovate as EmpNorton makes it out to be and that the Imperium has done innovation. Just very slowly.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
The Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Macharius are still counterexamples even if that was true.
Everything I've seen about the development of the Crusader indicates that some sort of "techno-arcana" whatever the hell that is, was required to create the Crusader. Simagus was not smart enough to do it without some sort of outside non-imperial interference. Point, me.
The Redeemer... I don't have IA 2 to look.
The Macharius was a lifelong project of a brilliant man WHO ALREADY HAD PARTIAL BLUEPRINTS FOR IT!!! Two points, me.
Maybe I'll see about obtaining IA2 so I can finish rubbing your nose in it, but this happens every time this discussion comes up. People say, "But what about X," and I find that it came from an STC or there were blueprints or otherwise there was no original invention. It's PART OF THE SETTING that innovation is beyond humanity in its current state. I don't know why people fight it so hard when its part of the beauty of the setting.
I know this may be asking a bit much, but could people PLEASE look up to origin of their favorite Imperial toy before suggesting it was invented, rather than found? Does it REALLY need to be my responsibility to educate you people in the ignorance of the Imperium?
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Yeah, there's not really any point of inventing and innovating when you know there is something much, much better than anything you can design out there.
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TheCustomLime wrote: Oh yeah, Imperial tech sucks and is totally bass ackwards. I was just saying that it isn't as easy to innovate as EmpNorton makes it out to be and that the Imperium has done innovation. Just very slowly.
For example, attaching some extra plates to SM power armor to protect weak spots in the joints took thousands of years to accomplish.
It doesn't matter if the Crusader, Redeemer or Macharius are based partially on previously existimg tech. These are Imperial innovations. And yeah innovation is done slowly. I never said it wasn't.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
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The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
The Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Macharius are still counterexamples even if that was true.
Everything I've seen about the development of the Crusader indicates that some sort of "techno-arcana" whatever the hell that is, was required to create the Crusader. Simagus was not smart enough to do it without some sort of outside non-imperial interference. Point, me.
Well, according to the 4th edition Codex: Black Templars that introduced the Crusader, it was an on-the-fly battlefield modification to get disarmed land raiders back into the fray using the most commonly available wargear. Dunno what bullgak they've made up since then though.
Land Raider Aries, same deal, except that it was Dark Angels needing a more heavily armoured siege unit after their Vindicators all got blown up who managed to mount a Demolisher Cannon securely enough to fire it multiple times in the troop bay of a Land Raider.
These are random techmarines - in AdMech terms, really low ranked - who are performing battlefield modifications of technology with limited resource and innovating as they do it.
So... points to me. All of them. I have all of the points.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Effectively. It's kind of a Zen thing. I am all things and no things simultaneously.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
If that's the best examples you can provide then I think we've finished this debate. The Macharius took centuries of work to get a tank that would be obsolete by WWII standards. The Predator Annihilator is just a regular Predator with its gun swapped for lascannons. The LR Crusader/Redeemer are just regular Land Raiders with different guns in their sponson mounts. The Razorback is just a Rhino with a sentry gun bolted to the roof (quite literally, if you use the FW Razorback turrets). The fact that these are considered major accomplishments by Imperial standards pretty strongly suggests that the Imperium isn't capable of doing anything more difficult.
Imperial innovation isn't there to improve already existing constructs. Imperials invent new weapons and machinery by finding a heavily-fragmented STC and filling in the blanks how they think it should be; anything else is heresy. This is a well-documented fact, and can actually end up with something completely different from the original STC.
On the Macharius Super-Heavy Tank: The Macharius Super-Heavy Tank is just a Baneblade's little brother. It features powerful armour that is well beyond anything we could hope of having today (or in WWII) composed of alloys that are of much higher quality than what we could hope for today (or in WWII). The whole thing has the firepower of two of today's tanks combined, with 2 Battle Cannons (which are refined far beyond what we have today), 2 Heavy Stubbers, and 2 Heavy Bolters. It's engine is well beyond anything we have today. It's an all-around solid tank, it just so happens that GW decided against using a design that's actually realistic for a tank built in 30 thousand years (for instance, 360 degree movement).
dusara217 wrote: Right, because sticking a few shoulder-mounted missile launchers onto (a la Tau Battlesuit) would really cause the entire machine to malfunction and murder its wearer.
How much do those launchers weigh? How much ammunition can you carry for them? Will a bulky box of missiles restrict the armor's movement? Is it a good idea to put all of your eggs in one basket, or should those missiles be given to a different unit instead? Again, there's much more to how you choose weapons than "how many square inches of space does this have", and there's a reason why real-world tanks don't have weapons bolted to every possible surface.
The Aeronautica Imperialis book where the Remora stealth drone was introduced mentions them being invisible in clear skies. No terrain to hide behind or blend in with, and you still can't see the Remora. And, unlike camo cloaks, Tau stealth fields don't require any skill from the user to blend in with their surroundings. You simply switch it on, and suddenly your unit is invisible.
Okay, I think that this portion of the argument got a little misconstrued. My point was that Imperials already had the technology to make people invisible the way the Tau do, they just don't have an ounce of ingenuity, and so they don't use it that way. Case in point:
stealth field generator, a holographic disruption field making the suit harder to spot.
The technology for making them invisible is a form of holographic technology, which humans mastered 15k+ years ago.
Really? Because it's stats are the same (tabletop wise), and both virtually identical feats under their belt (such as surviving direct armour-piercing missile blasts or Plasma shots to the face). If I'm wrong, then prove it. Stop making wild assertions without backing them up. What's your source?
Have you even read the Tau codex? The Riptide is a T6 MC, the terminator is a one-wound infantry model with a better armor save. If you're seriously disputing the fact that Riptides are tougher than terminators then I don't really know what to say.
Unfortunately, no. I have not read the Tau 'dex. Most of my knowledge regarding the Tau comes from hours upon hours of internet reading, much of it from Lexicanum and 1d4chan (those guys really know how to make a topic fun to read about, even if it isn't always reliable), tacticas for the tabletop game, and random googling when I become curious about things (which usually leads to a forum like belloflostsouls or dakka or B&C, which cite sources 80% of the time). Armour-wise, the Terminator and the Riptide are on par. However, the Riptide includes a portable shield generator alongside much thicker armour (though not really higher quality armour), accounting for its invulnerability save, additional toughness, and additional wounds.
Yeah, right, because Power Armour definitely wasn't designed with Mag-Lock Boots, hours of oxygen, power sources for jump packs/ maneuverability jets at all. Oh, wait, yes it was!
The point is that those things aren't standard equipment. And magnetic boots aren't all that impressive in void combat, where you need to be able to maneuver in all three dimensions and not be constrained to walking on an appropriate surface.
Uh, yes, yes they are [standard equipment]. Not only that, they are also required equipment for infantry Void warfare. Why? Because infantry Void warfare consists of boarding other spacecraft and repelling enemy boarding parties. 360 degree movement is for things like fighters and drones, not infantry. When the Emperor's Children assaulted an Ork space station, the use of magnetic boots alongside with their armours' life support systems proved critical for taking it (Fulgrim). Assault Squads are the bread and butter of the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers; meaning Jump Packs are, in fact, standard issue (for Assault Marines, at least, but it's not like you'd want a Tactical Marine with a Jump Pack, he would be too bulky to deploy in most situations). The Space Wolves have so many Jump Packs they give them to their new recruits (as seen in Codex: Space Wolves). Power Armour has built-in life support systems, Mag-Lock Boots, Hours of Oxygen when the suit is sealed, interfaces for attachments like Jump Packs that are very widely used, and all Space Marines are trained in the use of. Also, magnetic boots are critical in Void combat, when their only use is keeping you on the ship so that you don't get vaporized or lost in space. In Fear to Treat, a pack of Space Wolves shoot a missile out of the Red Tear's hull specifically because they know that the Space Marines have magnetic boots, and the explosive decompression will suck out the Daemons they're fighting.
I said they don't make larger titans. Unfortunately we're stuck with this one, but fluff-wise it's explicitly a very rare unit produced in limited numbers by one rogue engineer. The primary titan-scale units for the Tau are the railgun Tigershark and the Manta. And let's not forget that the railgun Tigershark is capable of blowing away a Warhound in one strafing run. Or that the Manta is a small spacecraft (complete with independent FTL, etc) armed with railguns intended to engage starships, not mere titans.The fact that the Tau aren't stupid enough to make a bunch of giant walking cathedrals does not mean that they are unable to match Imperial titans.
I never said that. I simply said that the vehicle that the Tau designed specifically for killing Titans and Titan-sized opponents wasn't even on-par with the weakest of Imperial Battletitans. The literal best that the Tau Empire can do (in that department) and it could get pulverized by a Warhound in a straight-up fight, which is just sad (considering the fact that Warhounds were intended to be used for ambushing other Titans and/or scouting ahead of the rest of the Legio).
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Co'tor Shas wrote: Well, I was going the math angle. A circle is formed form an infinite number of points originating from a center "point".
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Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
dusara217 wrote: Imperial innovation isn't there to improve already existing constructs. Imperials invent new weapons and machinery by finding a heavily-fragmented STC and filling in the blanks how they think it should be; anything else is heresy. This is a well-documented fact, and can actually end up with something completely different from the original STC.
Yes, exactly, this is why Imperial "innovation" is such a joke. They have little or no ability to develop anything on their own, they have to find STC data that someone else produced before they can design something as simple as a tank like the Macharius.
On the Macharius Super-Heavy Tank: The Macharius Super-Heavy Tank is just a Baneblade's little brother. It features powerful armour that is well beyond anything we could hope of having today (or in WWII) composed of alloys that are of much higher quality than what we could hope for today (or in WWII). The whole thing has the firepower of two of today's tanks combined, with 2 Battle Cannons (which are refined far beyond what we have today), 2 Heavy Stubbers, and 2 Heavy Bolters. It's engine is well beyond anything we have today. It's an all-around solid tank, it just so happens that GW decided against using a design that's actually realistic for a tank built in 30 thousand years (for instance, 360 degree movement).
Citation needed for this "everything is superior to modern tanks" claim. I don't see anything in the description of the Macharius that makes that comparison, and if we look at the model we see a poorly-designed tank with no suspension and vastly excessive size and weight.
Err, your picture doesn't clarify anything about what you're saying. Nor does it do anything to answer the point I made about how there's way more to weapon choices than "how many square inches of surface area do I have".
Okay, I think that this portion of the argument got a little misconstrued. My point was that Imperials already had the technology to make people invisible the way the Tau do, they just don't have an ounce of ingenuity, and so they don't use it that way.
Except you're ignoring the fluff here. Camo cloaks are a really good version of those "spot the sniper" pictures. It's a sheet of fabric that adapts to match the color of the surrounding terrain, so if you're motionless in a good hiding spot it breaks up your outline and makes you very difficult to spot. But if you're moving or out in the middle of an open field it's not going to help you very much. Tau stealth fields, on the other hand, bend light around the unit and make it literally invisible. As in you can have a Remora drone flying at 500mph through open sky with no cover at all to hide behind and nobody can see it.
Uh, yes, yes they are [standard equipment].
No they aren't. Generic tactical marines (the most basic form of power armor) do not have maneuvering thrusters for void combat. Only specialized jump pack units have the ability to fly.
Because infantry Void warfare consists of boarding other spacecraft and repelling enemy boarding parties. 360 degree movement is for things like fighters and drones, not infantry.
Sounds like you just have very little imagination. Void warfare is anything that happens in space. Maybe that's fighting inside a ship you're boarding, or maybe it's fighting in the shattered remains of a space hulk where there are "islands" of debris and vast open spaces. Having the ability to maneuver in any direction you want is far more useful than mere magnetic boots.
Assault Squads are the bread and butter of the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers; meaning Jump Packs are, in fact, standard issue (for Assault Marines, at least, but it's not like you'd want a Tactical Marine with a Jump Pack, he would be too bulky to deploy in most situations).
Exactly, they're standard issue for assault squads. They're an add-on to the basic power armor that is only used by specialized units. And even those jump packs fall well short of what the Tau use. Assault marine jump packs are purely designed for moving as fast as possible in one direction (preferably directly at the enemy). Tau crisis suits can hover, fly in an out of cover while shooting, etc. That's a lot more finesse than merely flinging a screaming guy with a chainsaw at the enemy as fast as possible.
I never said that. I simply said that the vehicle that the Tau designed specifically for killing Titans and Titan-sized opponents wasn't even on-par with the weakest of Imperial Battletitans.
{citation needed}
Game stats are not fluff. The fact that the Warhound's turbolasers are a blatant game design mistake does not mean that the "real" Warhound is an unstoppable god of battle.
Also, the Tau vehicle designed specifically for killing titans is the railgun Tigershark. In its first appearance it blows away a Warhound in one pass, before the Imperial side even has time to realize what's happening. The other titan killer, which is designed for killing starships and just happens to be used for ground attack, is the Manta. The KX139 is the creation of one rogue engineer who has an unhealthy obsession with trying to copy other giant walkers, not a standard Tau unit.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
On the Macharius Super-Heavy Tank: The Macharius Super-Heavy Tank is just a Baneblade's little brother. It features powerful armour that is well beyond anything we could hope of having today (or in WWII) composed of alloys that are of much higher quality than what we could hope for today (or in WWII). The whole thing has the firepower of two of today's tanks combined, with 2 Battle Cannons (which are refined far beyond what we have today), 2 Heavy Stubbers, and 2 Heavy Bolters. It's engine is well beyond anything we have today. It's an all-around solid tank, it just so happens that GW decided against using a design that's actually realistic for a tank built in 30 thousand years (for instance, 360 degree movement).
Citation needed for this "everything is superior to modern tanks" claim. I don't see anything in the description of the Macharius that makes that comparison, and if we look at the model we see a poorly-designed tank with no suspension and vastly excessive size and weight.
So, you expect me to believe that a tank made of Adamantium is easier to penetrate than a tank made of titanium or steel? That 15k+ years of innovation would create an engine that is inferior to what we have today? Yeah, you do that. I'll just be over here, in logic land.
Err, your picture doesn't clarify anything about what you're saying. Nor does it do anything to answer the point I made about how there's way more to weapon choices than "how many square inches of surface area do I have".
I swear, do I have to spell everything out in clearly defined, blatant lettering with no subtlety whatsoever? Some Crisis Battlesuits (as seen in the picture) utilize small, shoulder-mounted missile launchers. Terminators could quite easily utilize similar weaponry without causing the whole thing to spontaneously combust and murder its wearer. They are known to use wrist mounted Storm Bolters, it would be a simple matter to put self-propelled weaponry, like missiles, onto the shoulders. You wouldn't have to worry about the recoil knocking the wearer off balance (like a Bolter or Stubber), you wouldn't have to worry about Power Issues (It would just need to have the ability to swivel side-to-side and up-down), and you wouldn't have to spend a century and half coding the programmes for it into the TDA's cogitator engines (it would be simple targeting software, much like that used on Wrist-Mounted weaponry, and a launch command). It wouldn't be that difficult.
Okay, I think that this portion of the argument got a little misconstrued. My point was that Imperials already had the technology to make people invisible the way the Tau do, they just don't have an ounce of ingenuity, and so they don't use it that way.
Except you're ignoring the fluff here. Camo cloaks are a really good version of those "spot the sniper" pictures. It's a sheet of fabric that adapts to match the color of the surrounding terrain, so if you're motionless in a good hiding spot it breaks up your outline and makes you very difficult to spot. But if you're moving or out in the middle of an open field it's not going to help you very much. Tau stealth fields, on the other hand, bend light around the unit and make it literally invisible. As in you can have a Remora drone flying at 500mph through open sky with no cover at all to hide behind and nobody can see it.
Eh, no. Tau stealth technology uses holographics to hide the user (as has been stated repeatedly on many of my quotes and websites that I provided. Where's your source?). Refracting light stealth technology is stuff that we're working on today, but it is not what Tau or Imperial Stealth tech is based upon. If I'm wrong, then pull out the fething 'dex and give me a quote instead of making assertions with nothing to support them.
Uh, yes, yes they are [standard equipment].
No they aren't. Generic tactical marines (the most basic form of power armor) do not have maneuvering thrusters for void combat. Only specialized jump pack units have the ability to fly.
Okay, so you're saying that, in WWII, because it was only issued to specific individuals, the Thompson Submachine gun was not a standard piece of equipment in the US Army? Or that, becaues Navy Seals don't spend every mission underwater, water equipment is not standard equpiment for them? Because that makes about as much sense as what you just said. Space Marine Power Armour was designed to be outfitted for the mission at hand. If the mission demanded flight, then the wearer can attach a Jump Pack with minimal fuss (Blood Angel Omnibus). If the wearer needs to fight underwater, then the wearer can attach additional oxygen tanks (Codex: Space Wolves), if the wearer needs to fight in space with maneuvering jets, then you can put fething maneuvering jets onto it. That is why Power Armour is so versatile. If it came with extra oxygen to every fight, it would get blown to smitherines. If it wore a Jump Pack to every fight, it would be incapable of fighting underground or boarding a Space Hulk. The Tau specialized suits is all well and good, but its more expensive than the Imperial way of doing things. You have one chassis (Power Armour) that can be used in a trillion different situations and environments with only minimal changes to it (things that your average team of Chapter Serfs could do). This is standard equipment, regardless of whether or not you risk precious technology by throwing it into a fight that it will only be a burden in, or will do nothing useful in. Space Marines have their own brand of common sense, and this happens to be part of it.
Because infantry Void warfare consists of boarding other spacecraft and repelling enemy boarding parties. 360 degree movement is for things like fighters and drones, not infantry.
Sounds like you just have very little imagination. Void warfare is anything that happens in space. Maybe that's fighting inside a ship you're boarding, or maybe it's fighting in the shattered remains of a space hulk where there are "islands" of debris and vast open spaces. Having the ability to maneuver in any direction you want is far more useful than mere magnetic boots.
90% of the time, Infantry Void Warfare is boarding actions, which is why Space Marines' standard armour is perfectly suited for them.
Assault Squads are the bread and butter of the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers; meaning Jump Packs are, in fact, standard issue (for Assault Marines, at least, but it's not like you'd want a Tactical Marine with a Jump Pack, he would be too bulky to deploy in most situations).
Exactly, they're standard issue for assault squads. They're an add-on to the basic power armor that is only used by specialized units. And even those jump packs fall well short of what the Tau use. Assault marine jump packs are purely designed for moving as fast as possible in one direction (preferably directly at the enemy). Tau crisis suits can hover, fly in an out of cover while shooting, etc. That's a lot more finesse than merely flinging a screaming guy with a chainsaw at the enemy as fast as possible.
The entire premise of Space Marine combat doctrine is shock 'n awe. You hit fast, you hit hard, you [literally] scare the living crap out of those traitor Guardsmen, and go back to base. That's why they have Bolters instead of a more effective but less scary weapon. It's why they use fething chainsaws instead more effective weapons. And it's why they're called the Angels of Death.
I never said that. I simply said that the vehicle that the Tau designed specifically for killing Titans and Titan-sized opponents wasn't even on-par with the weakest of Imperial Battletitans.
{citation needed}
Game stats are not fluff. The fact that the Warhound's turbolasers are a blatant game design mistake does not mean that the "real" Warhound is an unstoppable god of battle.
Also, the Tau vehicle designed specifically for killing titans is the railgun Tigershark. In its first appearance it blows away a Warhound in one pass, before the Imperial side even has time to realize what's happening. The other titan killer, which is designed for killing starships and just happens to be used for ground attack, is the Manta. The KX139 is the creation of one rogue engineer who has an unhealthy obsession with trying to copy other giant walkers, not a standard Tau unit.
Here ya go, from the creators themselves (read the description for the fluff). And the site I originally cited . Here's a tactica that quotes the fluff (read the first couple paragraphs). Need I gather more sources? You know what, of course I will. How about this one: google. If you think that I'm wrong, then find something to support your position.
A simple comparison of the weaponry given to the Warhound and to the Supremacy Suit finds them to be roughly equivalent in firepower. The Warhound is larger, stealthier, and faster than the Supremacy Armour, however; giving it the edge.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/18 07:32:24
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
I'm not going to reply to anything else (as either I agree with it, or is a semantics issue), but, current tau stealth fields are not holographics. The old XV15 stealth fields, however, were, which may be where the confusion lies. What's interesting is that the reason for the switch to the XV25, instead of the planned switch to the XV22, was that the imerium go their hands on a set of XV15 stealth armour, compromising it's viability as a stealth platform, meaning they had to rush the XV25 into production, instead of being able to test and switch to the more advanced XV22.
Sadly, for such an awesome piece of equipment, it gets very little said about it. I find stealth suits in general to be depressingly under-appreciated, both in fluff and in game (because they are super over-priced).
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sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
dusara217 wrote: So, you expect me to believe that a tank made of Adamantium is easier to penetrate than a tank made of titanium or steel?
Given that "adamantium" is an entirely fictional material I think YOU have the burden of demonstrating that the Macharius has better armor than real-world tanks.
That 15k+ years of innovation would create an engine that is inferior to what we have today? Yeah, you do that. I'll just be over here, in logic land.
Well, given that the engine is built by the same people who don't understand why you should put a suspension on your tanks and have more than an inch of ground clearance, I don't think it's safe to assume that it's better than what we can build now.
I swear, do I have to spell everything out in clearly defined, blatant lettering with no subtlety whatsoever? Some Crisis Battlesuits (as seen in the picture) utilize small, shoulder-mounted missile launchers. Terminators could quite easily utilize similar weaponry without causing the whole thing to spontaneously combust and murder its wearer. They are known to use wrist mounted Storm Bolters, it would be a simple matter to put self-propelled weaponry, like missiles, onto the shoulders. You wouldn't have to worry about the recoil knocking the wearer off balance (like a Bolter or Stubber), you wouldn't have to worry about Power Issues (It would just need to have the ability to swivel side-to-side and up-down), and you wouldn't have to spend a century and half coding the programmes for it into the TDA's cogitator engines (it would be simple targeting software, much like that used on Wrist-Mounted weaponry, and a launch command). It wouldn't be that difficult.
And, again, missiles don't have zero weight. Missiles don't have zero cost. Missiles potentially interfere with range of motion. Missiles potentially require CPU time that the armor's targeting systems don't have to spare. Etc. Missiles that work fine on a crisis suit may not work as well on a smaller set of terminator armor for a variety of reasons. The fact that crisis suits put a weapon in that spot doesn't mean that any random set of armor should do the same.
Also, remember cyclone missile racks? That's what you're looking for if you want terminators with missiles.
Eh, no. Tau stealth technology uses holographics to hide the user (as has been stated repeatedly on many of my quotes and websites that I provided. Where's your source?). Refracting light stealth technology is stuff that we're working on today, but it is not what Tau or Imperial Stealth tech is based upon. If I'm wrong, then pull out the fething 'dex and give me a quote instead of making assertions with nothing to support them.
Look, forget about arguing about what technobabble "explanation" is given and look at how they operate. Camo cloaks are just a sheet of color-changing fabric that acts like real-world sniper suits. It provides a cover for the wearer that looks similar to the terrain, and with the right skill in choosing a place to hide it can make the wearer very difficult to spot. Stealth fields simply make the object invisible. They don't just paint a stealth suit/drone/whatever the same color as the background and act as really effectively camouflage, they make it disappear.
Okay, so you're saying that, in WWII, because it was only issued to specific individuals, the Thompson Submachine gun was not a standard piece of equipment in the US Army? Or that, becaues Navy Seals don't spend every mission underwater, water equipment is not standard equpiment for them? Because that makes about as much sense as what you just said.
Oh FFS, can you stop nitpicking the exact definition of "standard issue"? Most power armor does not have a jetpack or zero-g maneuvering thrusters. Tactical squads don't have it. Devastator squads don't have it. Assault marines deploying from drop pods don't have it. Terminators don't have it. Etc. The only units that have any kind of flight ability are assault and vanguard squads that have been issued jump packs. And even those units have much less maneuverability than crisis suits (or Eldar warp spiders, etc).
Here ya go, from the creators themselves (read the description for the fluff). And the site I originally cited . Here's a tactica that quotes the fluff (read the first couple paragraphs). Need I gather more sources? You know what, of course I will. How about this one: google. If you think that I'm wrong, then find something to support your position.
Sigh. Maybe you should actually try to understand the fluff you're reading instead of just picking single sources that support your position? See that Fio’o Ke’lshan Sho’aun guy mentioned in the KX139's description? If you read the descriptions of the R'Varna and Y'Vahra Riptide variants you'll see that it says he's a rogue engineer who is ignoring orders from the ethereals and building his own pet projects. These are NOT standard Tau designs.
And, again, please stop ignoring the existence of the Tigershark and Manta and their demonstrated ability to destroy titans. The KX139 is not the only Tau titan killer.
A simple comparison of the weaponry given to the Warhound and to the Supremacy Suit finds them to be roughly equivalent in firepower. The Warhound is larger, stealthier, and faster than the Supremacy Armour, however; giving it the edge.[/spoiler]
Again, game mechanics and fluff are not the same. The Warhound wins because its dual turbolasers are a blatant balance mistake by GW, not because the fluff says it beats a KX139. And the fluff says absolutely nothing about the Warhound being faster or stealthier (as if "stealthy" could even apply to either unit).
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Peregrine, are you seriously arguing that 40k tanks are not as tough as modern day stuff?
I'm saying that the claim that they are has not been supported, at least in the case of the Macharius. 40k tanks suffer from various design flaws that no modern tank designer would even consider, so why assume that their armor is any better? You certainly can't just appeal to "it's adamantium" since adamantium is a completely fictional material. It could be nothing more than the 40k name for a certain kind of steel.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I think a good example would be what they have to withstand. Some of the really heavy vehicles have been known to tank ( ) metla shots, and those are hot enough to vaporize titanium and steel. So at the very least they have higher heat resistance. And think of all the other things they are up against. Infantry firing .75 cal self-propelled, armour piercing grenades. Lasers powerful enough to blast through steel like it's nothing. All sorts of assorted shells and rockets.
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Co'tor Shas wrote: I think a good example would be what they have to withstand. Some of the really heavy vehicles have been known to tank ( ) metla shots, and those are hot enough to vaporize titanium and steel. So at the very least they have higher heat resistance. And think of all the other things they are up against. Infantry firing .75 cal self-propelled, armour piercing grenades. Lasers powerful enough to blast through steel like it's nothing. All sorts of assorted shells and rockets.
Other things to consider is crew layout and crew jobs. With so many weapons to crew and man that leaves a lot that can go wrong. Another thing to consider is how awful being an Imperial Tank commander must be in the 40k.
So many guns to co ordinate, very few vision slits from memory, very big targets (they are gonna be shaken up ALOT) and whats worse is how huge these guns are. The kick back and the noise would be huge in these tanks.
"Power" is a very simple way of looking at it, but practicality is also a major factor. At the end of the day a balance of practicality, protection and offensive ability is needed in a good tank. Imperial Tanks have offensive power, mediocre protection (armoured apparently but huge targets and not very well designed to take a hit) and completely lack practicality. So really these tanks would not likely be used in a "real" situation as all it takes is one RPG and these guys are in a lot of trouble.
In "real" war usually the tank that wins is the tank that saw the other tank first. As a result tanks have got lower and lower while optics on tanks get better and better. Communication also improves so that tanks can keep updated with other teams on locations and so on. In 40k tanks have very few vision spots (that I can see), terrible silhouette (gonna be seen very quickly) and communication in a tank that has up to 5 guns or more means whatever the tank does is gonna be very tough to communicate.
At the end of the day, it's easy to compare simply guns and armour, but there is so much more to a tank (in my brief knowledge) that makes 40k Imperial tank designs a huge failure in comparison to the majority of real life tanks.
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). Although tau stuff is certainly more common, relatively speaking, as there a few 
