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One other problem with trying to reverse-engineer xenos technology is that it still doesn't change the fundamental problem: the admech are a cargo cult that rejects the entire concept of engineering. Their problem isn't a lack of artifacts to study, it's that they consider the idea of "make something, see how it works, and make it better" to be heresy. According to their religious beliefs perfect technology has already been invented, and the only acceptable method of progress is recovering that previous work. So even if they didn't have a religious objection to looting xenos technology they'd never be able to understand it. They might be able to follow the blueprints and mount a railgun on a LRBT, but they'd never be able to build a bigger railgun to mount on a Baneblade or a small railgun to replace bolters.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Because it's, you know, blatantly bullgak, because adapting existing technology into new forms is the acceptable way to create new things - like Land Raider Crusaders and Stormblade super-heavies. They squabbled over it, sure, but then someone says: "It's not invention, it's adaption, that's fine isn't it?"
And they looked at the books, and decided; "Yeah, actually that one's acceptable."
The AdMech are not adverse to engineering. They are adverse to invention.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Furyou Miko wrote: The AdMech are not adverse to engineering. They are adverse to invention.
Yeah, individually they don't want to be labelled as heretics and collectively they don't want to bring about another Dark Age.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The HH books state that Volkite weaponry was the standard for early Marines, until demand outstripped supply and then it was simply easier to give them bolters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/13 08:56:59
Furyou Miko wrote: Because it's, you know, blatantly bullgak, because adapting existing technology into new forms is the acceptable way to create new things - like Land Raider Crusaders and Stormblade super-heavies. They squabbled over it, sure, but then someone says: "It's not invention, it's adaption, that's fine isn't it?"
Bolting a new gun to the side of a tank barely counts as progress, especially when it takes hundreds of years of fighting over whether the sacred STC data grants permission to do it. And the Stormblade is a 30k-era tank.
The AdMech are not adverse to engineering. They are adverse to invention.
Engineering and invention are the same thing.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
No, engineering and invention are *not* the same thing.
An engineer can look at a set of design schematics and say "Yeah, I can build that thing" and then go out and build that thing. The Engineer can even take an incomplete schematic and say "It looks like we can replace Missing Part A with Known Part B from this other thing I can build", and so they do that.
The Inventor says, "I thought up this totally new thing that improves combat effectiveness by 5%". The Engineer says, "Yeah? I'm trying to recover something we used to know how to build that would improve combat effectiveness by 50,000%".
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Invention often requires skill in engineering, but it is not, in fact, simply engineering rebranded.
"bolting another gun to the side" does require engineering, and is not invention. You need to figure out compatibility issues, sort out a whole new targetting and ammunition feed system, calculate the stresses on the fastenings... it's actually a very involved job.
Here's some perspective for you, oh disparager of engineers;
Lawyers study for five years to get their Bachelor's Degree.
Architectural Engineers study for seven.
As for the stormblade, fine, bad example. I meant the Stormsword. You can forgive me for a little mistake, right, big man?
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Psienesis wrote: An engineer can look at a set of design schematics and say "Yeah, I can build that thing" and then go out and build that thing. The Engineer can even take an incomplete schematic and say "It looks like we can replace Missing Part A with Known Part B from this other thing I can build", and so they do that.
Speaking as an engineer you're completely wrong about this. A person who can look at a design and assemble it is a factory worker, not an engineer. An engineer is the person who creates that schematic in the first place.
The Inventor says, "I thought up this totally new thing that improves combat effectiveness by 5%".
No, that's what an engineer does. They take a problem ("we need more combat effectiveness in {area}"), apply their knowledge to design a solution, and then refine that solution until they have a finished product that is ready to use. And then they had the design to the factory workers and say "build a bunch of copies of this".
The Engineer says, "Yeah? I'm trying to recover something we used to know how to build that would improve combat effectiveness by 50,000%".
No, that's what a library researcher does. The whole point of engineering is that you know how things work and you don't need to limit yourself to reproducing work that someone has already done.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: "bolting another gun to the side" does require engineering, and is not invention. You need to figure out compatibility issues, sort out a whole new targetting and ammunition feed system, calculate the stresses on the fastenings... it's actually a very involved job.
You're right. It is engineering/invention, and I acknowledged that it is. What I actually said was that it barely counts. It's a very, very limited accomplishment compared to designing an entire new gun to go in a new turret mount, especially when that small task requires centuries of arguing about whether it should be allowed or not. Or compared to designing a new tank, something real-world engineers are capable of but the Imperium is not.
Here's some perspective for you, oh disparager of engineers;
Er, lol? I am an engineer, and pointing out that the Imperium rejects the fundamental principles of engineering does not mean disparaging engineers at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/14 02:53:49
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Vankraken wrote: The problem isn't that they can't reverse engineer the tech .
Not true. For six THOUSAND years, no one was able to figure out how to solder a radar and some SAMs onto the top of a Rhino.
We've been over this. You were wrong about Imperial engineering before, and you're wrong about Imperial Engineering now.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
curran12 wrote:The Tau empire is a fraction of the size of the Imperium. Let me know how their distribution works on a scale of the galaxy, and not their collection of 3-5 sectors. Comparing it to something that spans the whole length of the galaxy is a poor comparison, because it removes all discussion of context.
The pulse rifle itself hits harder, yes. But has less armor penetration and also relies on constant resupply. Which is fine when you are on a micro scale that the Tau empire is in. But when you are spread across the galaxy, a weapon that you can reload by tossing its cells into a campfire (the lasgun, which is the far more common Imperium weapon) trumps it in durability, ruggedness and independence.
curran12 wrote: So wait, if the Tau is vastly superior to the Imperium, how come "It would be a trivial matter to roll over them"?
If it was superior, why can what the Imperium has roll over it?
/devilsadvocate
Because it's superior, but not vastly superior. And the Imperium has numbers, not to mention advances in other areas.
What's superior about it exactly? Examples, sources, direct comparisons.
The primary direct advantage is more one of reliability and distribution. Tau pulse rifles, for instance, hit harder than a standard boltgun and have better range. Unlike bolt weapons, however, these weapons are mass-produced and are standard issue for basic infantry, not the elite of the elite.
After that it's accuracy and target acquisition. Markerlights, precision guided missiles, and so on.
Then there are the multiple variations of stealthsuits fielded by them.
Finally, it's that Tau have a more-than-practical understanding of their tech, given that they haven't scavenged it from old STCs. This knowledge could be captured as well, though it wouldn't have as significant immediate effect as quick and dirty reverse engineering.
nomotog wrote:If I was going to pick one grab of tech to steal, it would have to be the stealth fields. It might actually make the concept of SM stealth not so laughable.
The Imperium can already make Pulse Weaponry. It's a little something called Volkite weaponry, and it is vastly superior to both Pulse Rifles and Bolt weapons. Unfortunately, it is incredibly difficult to reproduce, and thus fell out of favor in the face of the Bolter's relative ease of manufacture. There are thousands] of Forge Worlds that had this STC during the GC, so it would stand to reason that at least a few still have it.
Let's see here:
- Pulse Weaponry: harder to manufacture than the Bolt Gun, less understood, and less effective for the shock 'n awe warfare that Space Marines regularly take part in (the Bolter was designed to be able to effectively deal significant damage to large aliens and inspire crap-you-pants level of terror in humans and lesser Xenos; something which is not reflected on the tabletop), and significantly more difficult to reproduce than Las Weaponry, and insanely difficult to maintain in comparison to Las weaponry... I'll pass
- Tau stealth technology is already countered by tried and true Imperial stealth technology - Tau Void capabilities are already outstripped by Imperial Void technology, as we all know
- Tau battlesuits and the like are already countered by things like Dreadnoughts, Centurions, etc.
Plus, reverse-engineering hardware - at least to an extent that you can produce it on an industrial scale - takes years, because even if you know how it works you've got to figure out how to make machines to make the machines to make the bits.
The imperium does snatch, grab and develop unique bits of technology on a regular basis - special ammunition for the deathwatch, stealth tech based on tau battlesuit hardware, necron phase tech for the assassinorium, etc, etc, but it's all hand-made by magos.
Not exactly - all Assassinorium Phase Weaponry is stolen, the Imperium are not capable of producing it and never have been.
No, the main problem with the AdMech reverse-engineering things is actually not their dogma or their technology base.
The main problem with the AdMech trying to reverse engineer things is that their entire knowledge about how technology works is based off remembering songs and prayers that were derived from the user manuals.
Imagine if someone gave you a disassembled computer with a couple of cracked boards and the user manual for it, then without telling you what a cable is, asked you to put it together, then figure out how to make more of them once you've got it working.
That is the kind of problem the AdMech face every time they try to investigate new technology. When you realise that, it becomes obvious that aside from some information-sharing difficulties, what the AdMech have achieved in the last ten thousand years? It's fricken impressive.
This. Sheer belief has made AdMech dogma become slightly truer (machine spirits), but it still has prevented from actually learning how many of their technology works.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/16 16:34:11
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
LethalShade wrote: Well, Volkite weaponry is from the Dark Age of Technology/Age of Strife, as are many Imperial OPplznerf weapons.
Imperial Stealth technology is inferior to Tau one, because you actually need to wear the cloak, which restricts your movements.
Tau battlesuits are way more agile than Dreadnoughts.
Tau Battlesuits don't even come close to being on par with Dreadnoughts. That's like comparing an APC to a Tank. Also, how would wearing the cloak restrict your movements? That's like saying wearing clothes restricts your movements.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Xenos are heresy! -Looks at my Jokaero weaponsmith- except this little bundle of fun
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
It is for the same reasons muslims do not eat pork. It is forbidden by their religion. You don't just go against your religion. You can talk about practical limits all you want, but the AdMech is a theocracy. They do not distinguish between religion and practice, everything is religion, and all of their logic and acts are motivated by religion.
That said, there are several groups in the AdMech that have a more liberal interpretation of the religious scriptures, but more orthodox groups regard them as borderline heretics.
Most AdMech are of the opinion that reverse-engineering xeno tech is not only heresy, but also a waste of time. Their time is better spend searching for the STC, for should they ever find it, they will instantly be able to return to DAoT levels of tech, which are above anything xenos or men have ever made, save for the near-magical tech of the Necrons or the most advanced ancient Eldar constructs.
There are hints however that even if they did find a full STC system, they would not be able to do much with it. In Index Astartes: Centurions it is mentioned that the AdMech has recovered several STC copies that proved impossible to produce with their current level of tech.
Another problem is that, in the 40k universe, there actually are corrupting influences at work in much of the Xenotech encountered.
Chaos technology can turn you into a flesh-changed pustule, or make you sprout tentacles, simply by studying it. The threat to the soul is quite literally real, whether operating or (especially) attempting to research and understand it. There literally is a Dark Side with warp tech that will inevitably corrupt whoever associates with it.
Eldar tech is seductive in a different way. Wraithbone's sleek outward appearance masks a subtle psychic component; not only do most humans lack the passive psychic potential to operate it, but the psychic component is a two-way circuit that influences the operator (or researcher) even as s/he seeks to activate it. The influence is more subtle than Chaos, but over time the effect is cumulative.
Dark Eldar tech, being perverted by their obsession with pain and terror, is even more likely to subvert the minds and soul of an unwary researcher than the Craftworld/Exodite variety.
Ork Tek is often disregarded for it's crudeness, but realistically it, too may (or may not) require some psychokinetic ability to activate. In addition, the inherent unreliability and outright danger of more advanced Ork tek makes it unattractive to research, despite the dramatic results it can achieve. Finally, because Ork Tek is invariably hand-built and heavily kustomized it's unsuitable for mass production by Imperial manufactora or employment by the military.
Necron tech is simply too dangerous and alien for humans to understand. While the Mechanicum would never admit it, Necrotech is too advanced for humans to understand. Techpriest investigations are akin to a six year old initiating a cold fusion reaction. In addition, Necron tech is not designed for use by biological operators. There is no need for extensive shielding when the users are expendable cogs composed of essentially immortal Necrodermis. The side effects of normal operation can be lethal to humans. Finally, Necron tech deals with advanced manipulation of time and space that was theoretical for humans during the Dark Age of Technology... the impact on humans and the environment is very poorly understood.
Tyranid 'tech' is forced bio-evolution and not technology in the human sense. Like the Necrons it's beyond human grasp. For all the gene engineering that went into Space Marines (which is largely lost) Humans don't even understand the theory that might lead to something like the Tyranids employ. The Anphelion Project is a classic example of what happens when humans inquire too deeply into Tyranid Xenos.
Tau tech might be adaptable to Imperial needs, being based on known scientific principles and lacking psychic and/or corrupting influences. However, in light of the catastrophic results of meddling with other Xenotech the Imperium is understandably leery of researching Tau tech willy-nilly, without careful, deliberate procedures and without extensive safeguards.
The Imperium as a whole has learned to forbid inquiry. It is rabidly risk-avoidant, and with good reason; beyond merely destroying you, Xenotech can corrupt you into the 'enemy within'. The existence of the Inquisition, Exterminatus and the Mechanicum's own strictures against the heresies of experimentation and curiosity are clear evidence of this.
There are sanctioned investigators who study Xenotech in order to develop countermeasures. They move at a snail's pace, with elaborate safeguards, constant oversight and a watchful eye to prevent deviation from good, clean human influences. They are more interested in developing human tech counters to xeno threats, such as armor and shields attuned to resist enemy weapons (or human weapons attuned to penetrate xeno defenses), jammers to block enemy communication and the like. They do not try to develop a human pulse rifle or Shuriken catapult, because those alien weapons are disgustingly un-human and dangerous.
Do some tech priests, inquisitors, rogue traders, etc. take risks and study Xenotech? Sure, but it's heresy, punishable by extermination. Just studying Xenotech is dangerous, literally, to body and soul and sanity.
Most 40k fans just don't get that fear of Xenotech isn't just a sign of how myopic, insular and stubbornly human-centric the IOM is (though all that is certainly true). In the 40k millieu Xenotech really CAN twist your body and soul into something inhuman, irredeemably evil and stark, raving mad. There really ARE Secrets Man Was Not Meant To Know.
The Imperium can already make Pulse Weaponry. It's a little something called Volkite weaponry, and it is vastly superior to both Pulse Rifles and Bolt weapons. Unfortunately, it is incredibly difficult to reproduce, and thus fell out of favor in the face of the Bolter's relative ease of manufacture. There are thousands] of Forge Worlds that had this STC during the GC, so it would stand to reason that at least a few still have it.
Let's see here:
- Pulse Weaponry: harder to manufacture than the Bolt Gun, less understood, and less effective for the shock 'n awe warfare that Space Marines regularly take part in (the Bolter was designed to be able to effectively deal significant damage to large aliens and inspire crap-you-pants level of terror in humans and lesser Xenos; something which is not reflected on the tabletop), and significantly more difficult to reproduce than Las Weaponry, and insanely difficult to maintain in comparison to Las weaponry... I'll pass
- Tau stealth technology is already countered by tried and true Imperial stealth technology - Tau Void capabilities are already outstripped by Imperial Void technology, as we all know
- Tau battlesuits and the like are already countered by things like Dreadnoughts, Centurions, etc.
Few points, Volkatie weaponry is really nothing like pulse tech. Vokite is more similar to ion weaponry than anything. Although, IIRC, they stopped equipping SMs with them sometime after(?) the great crusade because they couldn't keep up with demand. So they switched to bold weaponry, which was originally designed so that regular humans could hit with equal power to stuff like orks.
Source on harder to manufacture or less understood? It's plasma tech, it's pretty well understood. And I seriously doubt the tau invest more in their FWs than the imperium does in SMs.
Camo-cloaks really aren't like tau stealth tech at all. Camo-cloaks are active camo, tau stealth tech has light being bend around you, complete invisibility, with jammers playing havoc with the full EM spectrum, blocking almost all detection. They are similar in purpose, but not how they work. Not really a direct comparison at all. I'm unsure if tau have any active camo, at the very least it was never mentioned. Although they probably do, I mean we are working on it now.
Tau warp tech is gak, and will always be gak, but that's more a physiological problem than a technology one. Without navigators, the imperium is in the same place as the tau, warp-wise.
As far as walkers go, they are about evenly matched, although the imperium does tend to go the bigger is better route (I'm convinced that the emperor is was compensating for something ). Although tau stuff is certainly more common, relatively speaking, as there a few SMs, and even fewer SM walkers. The real comparison would be walkers like sentinels, but they serve a different purpose, so are not really comparable.
LethalShade wrote: Well, Volkite weaponry is from the Dark Age of Technology/Age of Strife, as are many Imperial OPplznerf weapons.
Imperial Stealth technology is inferior to Tau one, because you actually need to wear the cloak, which restricts your movements.
Tau battlesuits are way more agile than Dreadnoughts.
Tau Battlesuits don't even come close to being on par with Dreadnoughts. That's like comparing an APC to a Tank.
Not really. Not at all in fact. In fact, battlesuits can pack some pretty powerful weaponry, and the broadsides trades jetpacks to be just as tough as dreadnoughts, with guns that put some actual tank weapons to shame (at least in fluff, the HRR is pretty gak in TT). But without that whole "nearly dead SM" thing. And then you look at stuff like XV9s, XV10s, ect.
Another problem is that, in the 40k universe, there actually are corrupting influences at work in much of the Xenotech encountered.
Chaos technology can turn you into a flesh-changed pustule, or make you sprout tentacles, simply by studying it. The threat to the soul is quite literally real, whether operating or (especially) attempting to research and understand it. There literally is a Dark Side with warp tech that will inevitably corrupt whoever associates with it.
Eldar tech is seductive in a different way. Wraithbone's sleek outward appearance masks a subtle psychic component; not only do most humans lack the passive psychic potential to operate it, but the psychic component is a two-way circuit that influences the operator (or researcher) even as s/he seeks to activate it. The influence is more subtle than Chaos, but over time the effect is cumulative.
Dark Eldar tech, being perverted by their obsession with pain and terror, is even more likely to subvert the minds and soul of an unwary researcher than the Craftworld/Exodite variety.
Ork Tek is often disregarded for it's crudeness, but realistically it, too may (or may not) require some psychokinetic ability to activate. In addition, the inherent unreliability and outright danger of more advanced Ork tek makes it unattractive to research, despite the dramatic results it can achieve. Finally, because Ork Tek is invariably hand-built and heavily kustomized it's unsuitable for mass production by Imperial manufactora or employment by the military.
Necron tech is simply too dangerous and alien for humans to understand. While the Mechanicum would never admit it, Necrotech is too advanced for humans to understand. Techpriest investigations are akin to a six year old initiating a cold fusion reaction. In addition, Necron tech is not designed for use by biological operators. There is no need for extensive shielding when the users are expendable cogs composed of essentially immortal Necrodermis. The side effects of normal operation can be lethal to humans. Finally, Necron tech deals with advanced manipulation of time and space that was theoretical for humans during the Dark Age of Technology... the impact on humans and the environment is very poorly understood.
Tyranid 'tech' is forced bio-evolution and not technology in the human sense. Like the Necrons it's beyond human grasp. For all the gene engineering that went into Space Marines (which is largely lost) Humans don't even understand the theory that might lead to something like the Tyranids employ. The Anphelion Project is a classic example of what happens when humans inquire too deeply into Tyranid Xenos.
Tau tech might be adaptable to Imperial needs, being based on known scientific principles and lacking psychic and/or corrupting influences. However, in light of the catastrophic results of meddling with other Xenotech the Imperium is understandably leery of researching Tau tech willy-nilly, without careful, deliberate procedures and without extensive safeguards.
The Imperium as a whole has learned to forbid inquiry. It is rabidly risk-avoidant, and with good reason; beyond merely destroying you, Xenotech can corrupt you into the 'enemy within'. The existence of the Inquisition, Exterminatus and the Mechanicum's own strictures against the heresies of experimentation and curiosity are clear evidence of this.
There are sanctioned investigators who study Xenotech in order to develop countermeasures. They move at a snail's pace, with elaborate safeguards, constant oversight and a watchful eye to prevent deviation from good, clean human influences. They are more interested in developing human tech counters to xeno threats, such as armor and shields attuned to resist enemy weapons (or human weapons attuned to penetrate xeno defenses), jammers to block enemy communication and the like. They do not try to develop a human pulse rifle or Shuriken catapult, because those alien weapons are disgustingly un-human and dangerous.
Do some tech priests, inquisitors, rogue traders, etc. take risks and study Xenotech? Sure, but it's heresy, punishable by extermination. Just studying Xenotech is dangerous, literally, to body and soul and sanity.
Most 40k fans just don't get that fear of Xenotech isn't just a sign of how myopic, insular and stubbornly human-centric the IOM is (though all that is certainly true). In the 40k millieu Xenotech really CAN twist your body and soul into something inhuman, irredeemably evil and stark, raving mad. There really ARE Secrets Man Was Not Meant To Know.
It's just more grimdark that way.
My two cents.
Well said.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/17 02:38:47
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Few points, Volkatie weaponry is really nothing like pulse tech. Vokite is more similar to ion weaponry than anything. Although, IIRC, they stopped equipping SMs with them sometime after(?) the great crusade because they couldn't keep up with demand..
Volkite weapons were fazed out during the Great Crusade because of their difficulty of manufacture. And, while Volkite weapons aren't really an equivalent of Pulse Rifles (poor comparison, I know), but humans already have significantly more powerful Plasma weaponry, it would be a simple matter to simply utilize smaller amounts of matter in said plasma weaponry, and thus have less Plasma
Source on harder to manufacture or less understood? It's plasma tech, it's pretty well understood. And I seriously doubt the tau invest more in their FWs than the imperium does in SMs.
Are you seriously going to argue this point? Lasguns are the easiest weapons to manufacture ever, that's the whole premise of the lasgun.
Camo-cloaks really aren't like tau stealth tech at all. Camo-cloaks are active camo, tau stealth tech has light being bend around you, complete invisibility, with jammers playing havoc with the full EM spectrum, blocking almost all detection. They are similar in purpose, but not how they work. Not really a direct comparison at all. I'm unsure if tau have any active camo, at the very least it was never mentioned. Although they probably do, I mean we are working on it now.
You must have misread my post. People said that Imperials did not have stealth technology, while the Tau did. I countered that by using Camo-Cloaks as an example of Imperial stealth tech.
Tau warp tech is gak, and will always be gak, but that's more a physiological problem than a technology one. Without navigators, the imperium is in the same place as the tau, warp-wise.
This has never been an issue, why did you even bring it up?
As far as walkers go, they are about evenly matched, although the imperium does tend to go the bigger is better route (I'm convinced that the emperor is was compensating for something ). Although tau stuff is certainly more common, relatively speaking, as there a few SMs, and even fewer SM walkers. The real comparison would be walkers like sentinels, but they serve a different purpose, so are not really comparable.
Imperial exoskeletons are way more advanced than that of the Tau. They have exoskeletons for virtually every every situation. Let's see here:
- Power Armour: Highly versatile, great for combat in hostile environments, protection from 99% of small arms fire, including some Armor Piercing weapons. You can even use this stuff as a Space Suit or for Void Ship maintenance. AdMech idiocy being what it is, they opted against adding shoulder-mounted Plasma guns or rocket launchers or Iron Man missile launcher wrists. Because grimderp.
- Plasma Reactor Maintenance Suits: These are exoskeletons used to go inside of the reactor cores of Plasma Reactors. These are basically the original Terminator suits
- Tactical Dreadnought Armour: A form of the plasma reactor suit that was adapted for warfare. It can literally withstand temperatures that are literally impossible to be withstood by any kind of real life metallic alloys. This thing should be impenetrable by anything but Necron Gauss weapons, because those deconstruct the very molecules of the armour. Not only that, Imperial Power Armour technology is incorporated, as well, and it significantly enhances strength of the wearer, and ( (if Fulgrim is to be believed)still allows Space Marines to be extremely agile while wearing them. The Imperium being as idiotic as it is, they decided not to give it some awesome shoulder-mounted Plasma Cannons and arm-Assault-Cannons, because grimderp. Stoopid GW...
- Dreadnought Armour: A tank with legs. This is basically just intended to make those poor quadriplegic Space Marines feel less useless. Everything a dreadnought does, a tank or a Knight Titan can do better. This is just a Space Marine wheelchair with armour plating and explosives.
- Exo-Armour: Power Armour for midgets. This was designed for use in underground tunnels.
- Centurion Armour: fills the niche between TDA and Dreadnoughts. This is the armour intended to make Space Marines into walking tanks. Basically, Space Marines are bigger, badder, with bigger guns. Like, this should be able to allow Space Marines to dual-wield Assault Cannons while firing shoulder-mounted Plasma Cannons and wrist-mounted Storm Bolters. But it doesn't, because GW writers are idiots, and don't comprehend the fact that these are tanks with multiple limbs. Seriously. There should be dozens of guns on these things. WHY DO THEY ONLY USE 2 GUNS ON A PLATFORM THAT COULD FIT DOZENS OF THEM. JUST. WHY?!?!?!
- Dragon Scale Power Armour: The only Power Armour that the AdMech actually decided to pimp out. It's powered by the wearer's own implants; making it usable only by members of the Martian priesthood, or people with a gak-ton of expensive-ass implants. Of course, it's used exclusively used by ordinary humans, so it's not nearly as powerful or protective as any of the afore-mentioned types of Power Armour.
LethalShade wrote: Well, Volkite weaponry is from the Dark Age of Technology/Age of Strife, as are many Imperial OPplznerf weapons.
Imperial Stealth technology is inferior to Tau one, because you actually need to wear the cloak, which restricts your movements.
Tau battlesuits are way more agile than Dreadnoughts.
Tau Battlesuits don't even come close to being on par with Dreadnoughts. That's like comparing an APC to a Tank.
Not really. Not at all in fact. In fact, battlesuits can pack some pretty powerful weaponry, and the broadsides trades jetpacks to be just as tough as dreadnoughts, with guns that put some actual tank weapons to shame (at least in fluff, the HRR is pretty gak in TT). But without that whole "nearly dead SM" thing. And then you look at stuff like XV9s, XV10s, ect.
Spoiler:
After brushing up on my Battlesuit fluff, I've realized that every model of Battlesuit is incredibly specialized.
-Crisis suits are only as protective as Power Armour, as they only protect against small arms fire, much like Imperial Power Armour does (Battlesuits). They're meant to be the Tau all-around Battlesuit, but aren't nearly as agile and versatile as standard Space Marine Power Armour (which is less bulky,
-The Stealth Battlesuit utilizes holographs to make them harder to see. This could easily be done by Imperials, they just don't do it, because Camo-Cloaks already get the job done quite well. They really do the same thing as Camo Cloaks, just using a different means of doing so.
- Broadside Battlesuits are just Crisis Suits with more heavy weapons. That means that they are no more protective than Space Marine Power Armour. A bit like a glass cannon, really.
- Hazard Close Support Armour: It's basically a Broadside with better armour. This is comparable with Space Marine Centurion Armour. It features a reinforcorced chassis, so less of a glass cannon, and short-ranged, really powerful weaponry.
- Riptide: The most expensive walker of all time. It's basically just a flying Terminator (from what I've read on various websites).
- R'vana: Fast Dreadnoughts. Plain and simple.
- Vanguard Void Battlesuit: Battlesuit meant for Void infantry combat. Yet more evidence of the Crisis Battlesuit's lack of versatility (in comparison to Imperial Power Armour)
- Stormsurge: A walking cannon. With power issues that no Imperial walker
-Ta-unar Supremacy Armour: A really slow Tau version of a Titan. It's got the biggest guns they can fit on a mobile land vehicle, with the best protection they can give a mobile land vehicle. It's the best the Tau can do, and it's basically just a really slow Warhound Titan. Seriously. This is the best that the Tau can do. Even the Warhound, the literal weakest of Imperial Battletitans, isn't weaker than this. It's weapons are basically just Warhound weapons that use different technologies to accomplish the same results, only with less versatility.
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To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
dusara217 wrote: WHY DO THEY ONLY USE 2 GUNS ON A PLATFORM THAT COULD FIT DOZENS OF THEM.
Because there's more to weapon choices than "how many square inches does this have, and how many guns can I bolt to them". Power consumption, ammo storage, etc, are much more relevant than how many guns a unit is physically capable of carrying.
-Crisis suits are only as protective as Power Armour, as they only protect against small arms fire, much like Imperial Power Armour does (Battlesuits). They're meant to be the Tau all-around Battlesuit, but aren't nearly as agile and versatile as standard Space Marine Power Armour (which is less bulky,
Remember the part where they can fly? How exactly is that less agile than power armor? And where did you get the idea that they're no more durable than power armor? Compared to a space marine the crisis suit is faster, vastly more mobile, more durable, and armed with much more powerful weapons.
-The Stealth Battlesuit utilizes holographs to make them harder to see. This could easily be done by Imperials, they just don't do it, because Camo-Cloaks already get the job done quite well. They really do the same thing as Camo Cloaks, just using a different means of doing so.
Stealth fields make the unit invisible. As in, there's a Remora done hovering nearby aiming its guns at you, and you'll never know until you're already dead. Camo cloaks just make you harder to spot, and only if you're stationary and hiding under the cloak.
Broadside Battlesuits are just Crisis Suits with more heavy weapons. That means that they are no more protective than Space Marine Power Armour. A bit like a glass cannon, really.
Broadsides are more durable than crisis suits. The extra armor is part of why they don't have jetpacks.
- Riptide: The most expensive walker of all time. It's basically just a flying Terminator (from what I've read on various websites).
...
No, it's way bigger and tougher than a terminator, and carries a much more powerful weapon.
- Vanguard Void Battlesuit: Battlesuit meant for Void infantry combat. Yet more evidence of the Crisis Battlesuit's lack of versatility (in comparison to Imperial Power Armour)
It's no such thing. Standard power armor is worthless for void combat because it has no maneuvering thrusters. So if you want to fight effectively in space (and not just places where you can't breathe the air) you need power armor variants.
-Ta-unar Supremacy Armour: A really slow Tau version of a Titan. It's got the biggest guns they can fit on a mobile land vehicle, with the best protection they can give a mobile land vehicle. It's the best the Tau can do, and it's basically just a really slow Warhound Titan. Seriously. This is the best that the Tau can do. Even the Warhound, the literal weakest of Imperial Battletitans, isn't weaker than this. It's weapons are basically just Warhound weapons that use different technologies to accomplish the same results, only with less versatility.
Ever hear of the Manta? The Tau don't waste resources on bigger titans, they just bring down spacecraft from orbit and kill you with them. You really shouldn't be praising the Imperium's idiotic obsession with making giant walking cathedrals.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
1. There's nothing Tau has that Imperium doesn't already have access to, or have superior version of.
2. Mechanicus is constantly researching and applying xenos tech to Imperial use. It's just that a lot of that tech never leaves the Mechanicus because of constant politicizing and power struggle. Remember that Mechanicus is it's own organization, not subsidiary of the Imperium.
3. Imperium's supply demands are way beyond what Tau could even hope to produce. If Imperium was the size of Tau Empire, you can bet they would have better tech in use. It's also not cheap to put up new production lines in the scale that Imperium requires, that's why most of the stuff is mainly patterns and modifications to existing models.
Co'tor Shas wrote:IIRC, they stopped equipping SMs with them sometime after(?) the great crusade because they couldn't keep up with demand. So they switched to bolt weaponry, which was originally designed so that regular humans could hit with equal power to stuff like orks.
They switched to bolt weapons because volkite weapons were worse at penetrating armor. Bolt weapons were also tactically more flexible and easier/cheaper to produce.
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Finlandiaperkele wrote: 1. There's nothing Tau has that Imperium doesn't already have access to, or have superior version of.
Safe warp travel and AI would be two obvious counter-examples. Plus, most of the Tau technology that the Imperium does have access to is available in name only. There might be some Imperial version of a crisis suit locked away in storage somewhere, but it's not going to be available for anyone to use.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Vankraken wrote: The problem isn't that they can't reverse engineer the tech .
Not true. For six THOUSAND years, no one was able to figure out how to solder a radar and some SAMs onto the top of a Rhino.
We've been over this. You were wrong about Imperial engineering before, and you're wrong about Imperial Engineering now.
No, I wasn't. It's straight out of the last Marine codex. They couldn't invent it and had to find an STC for it.
You clearly don't understand how Imperial technology works. Its not as simple as welding on a SAM rack and a radar onto a Rhino. If you just took a random piece of radar technology and a random SAM system and did that you are likely to offend the Rhino's machine spirit causing the new invention to not work at all, explode when you try to fire it or even have it turn on it's creators. Innovations in the Imperium have to be carefully considered by the AdMech otherwise it could lead to disastrous results. If you want examples of Imperial innovation check out the Macharius, the Predator Annhilator, the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer and the Razorback.
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EmpNortonII wrote: No, I wasn't. It's straight out of the last Marine codex. They couldn't invent it and had to find an STC for it.
Land Raider Crusader. No, wait.
Land Raider Aries. How does that fit into your neat little fiction?
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Remember the part where they can fly? How exactly is that less agile than power armor? And where did you get the idea that they're no more durable than power armor? Compared to a space marine the crisis suit is faster, vastly more mobile, more durable, and armed with much more powerful weapons.
Imperial Power Armor is also much smaller and offers the same amount of protection.
Power Armor can also "fly" with the addition of a Jump Jet, which appears to be faster than a jet pack.
That does not make the PA "better" per se, but wouldn't that mean that the Power Armor is more advanced, as it provides amble amounts of protection for its relative size, as well as increasing the user's strength?
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The strength boost provided by power armour is neglible compared to the strength boost provided by Crisis armour, though.
Ultimately they're two different evolutions of the same concept - the Tau version is, ironically, closer to the book version of the Starship Troopers power armour that started the whole thing.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Furyou Miko wrote: The strength boost provided by power armour is neglible compared to the strength boost provided by Crisis armour, though.
Ultimately they're two different evolutions of the same concept - the Tau version is, ironically, closer to the book version of the Starship Troopers power armour that started the whole thing.
Well yeah, crisis suits are bigger It would be interesting to see the ratio between weight and strength provided.
Yep, Crisis Suits are more like the MI than the Space Marines.
No nuke launchers though.
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Finlandiaperkele wrote: 1. There's nothing Tau has that Imperium doesn't already have access to, or have superior version of.
Safe warp travel and AI would be two obvious counter-examples. Plus, most of the Tau technology that the Imperium does have access to is available in name only. There might be some Imperial version of a crisis suit locked away in storage somewhere, but it's not going to be available for anyone to use.
Tau warp travel is safe only because they don't fully enter the warp. This makes their travel time slower, and distances shorter. Imperium can fully enter the warp, giving them much more distance and speed. IIRC, Imperial ships are also able to do this. Also, most of the time Imperial warp transportation is perfectly safe.
Imperium has no need for fully sentient AI, also there's that little thing called Men of Iron that still haunts humanity. Imperium uses logic engines and machine spirit to do the same thing. Also there's the reprogrammed brains thing as well.
Crisis suit is just more cumbersome version of Astartes PA, so there's no need for that. I highly doubt that someone could use it in the first place, due to differences in human/tau physiology.
This thread is pretty much boiling down to "i like this faction more, so they win" :s
Has anyone read the 3rd edition tau codex? it has quite a bit of information on tau technology AND it is presented from an imperial point of view. There is even a letter from a tech priest where he admits that tau technology "matches and occasionally exceeds imperial manufacture.." but he quickly justifies it with "It displays none of the proper obesiances to the holy spirit of the machine god" He then goes on to recommend that tau technology is immediately destroyed if captured. Perhaps this is the reason for the lack of tau reverse engineering? Maybe they present the most danger to tech heresy because their tech works in the most logical way to humans, without the speudoscience of the necrons and the psychic do-hickery of the eldar.
Also, just to throw it in,
Crisis armour DOES afford more protection than power armour. However the standard XV8 model does not contain the life support facilities that I believe is present in power armour, although the coldstar and the vanguard (which does exist, it is a battlesuit given to teams exploring space hulks) Do. All suits do have a more advanced sensor/scanner suite than astartes power armour however.
Broadsides armour removes the jetpack due to heavier armour and stabilisers being mounted.
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bag!"
). Although tau stuff is certainly more common, relatively speaking, as there a few 
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