But those who have told me that were Tau, Eldar and Cron players. Essentially my best friends (lol)
Being a CSM player these days seems to bring out the utter hatred I have for this army and utmost respect I have for anyone else I see around, playing CSM of any variant. I hate it, hate it so much I have even contemplated ridding myself of my most worked on, most loved faction within the 40k universe and picking up my Tau again. But where would I be as a general amongst my friends if I were to do that? Another FOTM player? I've spent upwards of 4k dollars on all my CSM and Daemons now and though I haven't quite gotten through painting it all, it makes me happy to come home after a long week to my work desk so I can paint them.
Is it just me? I cannot be the only one out there that looks at CSM as a faction and wonder "Why do they still exist if GW refuses to bring them up to par with even the most basic of equipment" I sometimes wonder if they should (Dare I say it) get Squated and be done with as a faction.
If I ever play my CSM I'm at a monetary loss on equal point value simply because by playing CSM I require FW in order to be competitive. Every time I throw out a FW model, I am peppered with "Really bro?" "Are you serious?" & "Why bring FW, aren't you skilled enough without that?" Sorry but last I checked my 35 cultists won't be tabling you on their own. This can be from a friend who generally collects FW models himself (As Tau, owning 2 R'Varna and 2 Riptides and a Y'Varna) but would roll his eyes when the notion of a Fire Raptor Gunship would cross my mind for todays game.
Someone just PM me when the next CSM dex comes out please. I'm getting sick of Chaos being gimp and relying on $200 FW books and $250 FW variant tanks just to be on par with Loyalist factions.
MarsNZ wrote: Your friends sound like idiots and CSM aren't going anywhere, they're the result of probably the most significant event in the ingame lore.
Very true. Also a far more entertaining way to enjoy your minis (Playing them in the aforementioned events ruleset)
The next time your "friend" calls you out for bringing FW units, bring a dictionary with you (or find one online) and show him the definition of hypocrisy.
Aren't forgeworld books hard backed? Just beat him with it until he apologises.
Joking aside, the only way to play CSM competitively is to use forge world. The best lists you can come up with, are probably over half forgeworld. And we don't even have any of that overpowered stuff. (Except maybe that fast attack fighter with a weird name)
And make sure to maintain an embittered, anti establishment persona while playing, it will make those challenges your forced to issue all that much more immersive for your characters!
If you hate an army, the best thing to do is create stupid and funny lists that in no way would work
then if you win a game with that list, you will lessen your hatred if it.
E.G Funny list for CSM Typhus
210 Cultists
(consider adding in some sorcerors to make the list 1500 points)
It works 100% of the time for me!
But those who have told me that were Tau, Eldar and Cron players. Essentially my best friends (lol)
Being a CSM player these days seems to bring out the utter hatred I have for this army and utmost respect I have for anyone else I see around, playing CSM of any variant. I hate it, hate it so much I have even contemplated ridding myself of my most worked on, most loved faction within the 40k universe and picking up my Tau again. But where would I be as a general amongst my friends if I were to do that? Another FOTM player? I've spent upwards of 4k dollars on all my CSM and Daemons now and though I haven't quite gotten through painting it all, it makes me happy to come home after a long week to my work desk so I can paint them.
Is it just me? I cannot be the only one out there that looks at CSM as a faction and wonder "Why do they still exist if GW refuses to bring them up to par with even the most basic of equipment" I sometimes wonder if they should (Dare I say it) get Squated and be done with as a faction.
If I ever play my CSM I'm at a monetary loss on equal point value simply because by playing CSM I require FW in order to be competitive. Every time I throw out a FW model, I am peppered with "Really bro?" "Are you serious?" & "Why bring FW, aren't you skilled enough without that?" Sorry but last I checked my 35 cultists won't be tabling you on their own. This can be from a friend who generally collects FW models himself (As Tau, owning 2 R'Varna and 2 Riptides and a Y'Varna) but would roll his eyes when the notion of a Fire Raptor Gunship would cross my mind for todays game.
Someone just PM me when the next CSM dex comes out please. I'm getting sick of Chaos being gimp and relying on $200 FW books and $250 FW variant tanks just to be on par with Loyalist factions.
</3 CSM>
Dark Eldar players who were 12 years without a codex update and with little to no FW support would like to have a word with you.
Good lord man, clobber them with the FW book. It's 7th edition 40k, you shouldn't be getting whinged at for bringing legitimate units for your force.
Alternatively, if you want to really induce rage (both in your opponents who for some reason hate FW as well as cause rage in yourself when you realise how poor the Codex is compared to a 30k Legion force), buy these:
Then put together a Word Bearers force with allied Dæmons, a Mhara Gal, Val Gorbak, a Diabolist and then rage some more at how GW got it so wrong and FW got it so right in a much simpler manner.
-v10mega wrote: Take your chaos space marines and build a demi company and say they are chaos then apocalypse allies with the daemons
This is sadly the best option if you don't mind being generic. Playing Alpha legion? Pick up the Raven Guard rules. Iron Warriors? Use Iron hands perhaps with impguard allies for artillary. Only army that doesn't work for is possibly Night lords unless there's a jump pack formation for SM
But those who have told me that were Tau, Eldar and Cron players. Essentially my best friends (lol)
Being a CSM player these days seems to bring out the utter hatred I have for this army and utmost respect I have for anyone else I see around, playing CSM of any variant. I hate it, hate it so much I have even contemplated ridding myself of my most worked on, most loved faction within the 40k universe and picking up my Tau again. But where would I be as a general amongst my friends if I were to do that? Another FOTM player? I've spent upwards of 4k dollars on all my CSM and Daemons now and though I haven't quite gotten through painting it all, it makes me happy to come home after a long week to my work desk so I can paint them.
Is it just me? I cannot be the only one out there that looks at CSM as a faction and wonder "Why do they still exist if GW refuses to bring them up to par with even the most basic of equipment" I sometimes wonder if they should (Dare I say it) get Squated and be done with as a faction.
If I ever play my CSM I'm at a monetary loss on equal point value simply because by playing CSM I require FW in order to be competitive. Every time I throw out a FW model, I am peppered with "Really bro?" "Are you serious?" & "Why bring FW, aren't you skilled enough without that?" Sorry but last I checked my 35 cultists won't be tabling you on their own. This can be from a friend who generally collects FW models himself (As Tau, owning 2 R'Varna and 2 Riptides and a Y'Varna) but would roll his eyes when the notion of a Fire Raptor Gunship would cross my mind for todays game.
Someone just PM me when the next CSM dex comes out please. I'm getting sick of Chaos being gimp and relying on $200 FW books and $250 FW variant tanks just to be on par with Loyalist factions.
</3 CSM>
Dark Eldar players who were 12 years without a codex update and with little to no FW support would like to have a word with you.
Meh. I'm a DE player. I'd trade in our "update" for 5th Dex anyday. Without even blinking.
Is it just me? I cannot be the only one out there that looks at CSM as a faction and wonder "Why do they still exist if GW refuses to bring them up to par with even the most basic of equipment" I sometimes wonder if they should (Dare I say it) get Squated and be done with as a faction.
40kCSM: Crap rules, crap models, crap fluff, no support, epic characters have worse TT performance than some armies' basic infantry choices.
But those who have told me that were Tau, Eldar and Cron players. Essentially my best friends (lol)
Being a CSM player these days seems to bring out the utter hatred I have for this army and utmost respect I have for anyone else I see around, playing CSM of any variant. I hate it, hate it so much I have even contemplated ridding myself of my most worked on, most loved faction within the 40k universe and picking up my Tau again. But where would I be as a general amongst my friends if I were to do that? Another FOTM player? I've spent upwards of 4k dollars on all my CSM and Daemons now and though I haven't quite gotten through painting it all, it makes me happy to come home after a long week to my work desk so I can paint them.
Is it just me? I cannot be the only one out there that looks at CSM as a faction and wonder "Why do they still exist if GW refuses to bring them up to par with even the most basic of equipment" I sometimes wonder if they should (Dare I say it) get Squated and be done with as a faction.
If I ever play my CSM I'm at a monetary loss on equal point value simply because by playing CSM I require FW in order to be competitive. Every time I throw out a FW model, I am peppered with "Really bro?" "Are you serious?" & "Why bring FW, aren't you skilled enough without that?" Sorry but last I checked my 35 cultists won't be tabling you on their own. This can be from a friend who generally collects FW models himself (As Tau, owning 2 R'Varna and 2 Riptides and a Y'Varna) but would roll his eyes when the notion of a Fire Raptor Gunship would cross my mind for todays game.
Someone just PM me when the next CSM dex comes out please. I'm getting sick of Chaos being gimp and relying on $200 FW books and $250 FW variant tanks just to be on par with Loyalist factions.
</3 CSM>
Dark Eldar players who were 12 years without a codex update and with little to no FW support would like to have a word with you. [/quote
]
Meh. I'm a DE player. I'd trade in our "update" for 5th Dex anyday. Without even blinking.
They sound like whiners. Unless youre brining a Titan to a 1,500 or less just standard game FW doesnt matter anymore. I used to abhore the idea of FW even in 6th and now with 7th it is just obvious GW doesnt care about rules so why should I?
CSM is outdated in every possible way. Even the FW stuff isnt crazy. I use the Laser Destroyer Vindicator because a normal Vind is worthless at 24" range. My friends dont care and just blow it up from 72" away.
I bought a Glotkin Ghurk to be my Chaos Imperial Knight, havent played it yet but at 500ish points it isnt cheesy. Im assuming he too will just end up dying in some range of 24" to 36" away.
But those who have told me that were Tau, Eldar and Cron players. Essentially my best friends (lol)
Being a CSM player these days seems to bring out the utter hatred I have for this army and utmost respect I have for anyone else I see around, playing CSM of any variant. I hate it, hate it so much I have even contemplated ridding myself of my most worked on, most loved faction within the 40k universe and picking up my Tau again. But where would I be as a general amongst my friends if I were to do that? Another FOTM player? I've spent upwards of 4k dollars on all my CSM and Daemons now and though I haven't quite gotten through painting it all, it makes me happy to come home after a long week to my work desk so I can paint them.
Is it just me? I cannot be the only one out there that looks at CSM as a faction and wonder "Why do they still exist if GW refuses to bring them up to par with even the most basic of equipment" I sometimes wonder if they should (Dare I say it) get Squated and be done with as a faction.
If I ever play my CSM I'm at a monetary loss on equal point value simply because by playing CSM I require FW in order to be competitive. Every time I throw out a FW model, I am peppered with "Really bro?" "Are you serious?" & "Why bring FW, aren't you skilled enough without that?" Sorry but last I checked my 35 cultists won't be tabling you on their own. This can be from a friend who generally collects FW models himself (As Tau, owning 2 R'Varna and 2 Riptides and a Y'Varna) but would roll his eyes when the notion of a Fire Raptor Gunship would cross my mind for todays game.
Someone just PM me when the next CSM dex comes out please. I'm getting sick of Chaos being gimp and relying on $200 FW books and $250 FW variant tanks just to be on par with Loyalist factions.
</3 CSM>
Finally! some one who shares my pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It took nearly 6 years for someone to admit it!!!!!
The CSM models are so wicked sick cool looking but the rules suck.
You gotta know your place. as CSM or Ork, your job is to die for the good guy snow flakes and eldars.
My only recommendation is to not buy 5 imperial knights...
Eldarain wrote: It's just GW helping us Forge the Narrative of being wretched twisted bitter exiles living in a constant hellscape.
Really their best work when you think about it.
This is exactly how I feel. I had such high hopes GW would right the wrongs of 4e. Then the 6e CSM codex and models dropped. The utter disappointment I felt was beyond description. That wound festered for years and grew as the slights mounted, until finally I quit 40k entirely. Yet I remain lurking on forums, waging a perpetual shadow war against the gaming empire that betrayed me, fueled by never-ending bitterness and hatred.
Eldarain wrote: It's just GW helping us Forge the Narrative of being wretched twisted bitter exiles living in a constant hellscape.
Really their best work when you think about it.
This is exactly how I feel. I had such high hopes GW would right the wrongs of 4e. Then the 6e CSM codex and models dropped. The utter disappointment I felt was beyond description. That wound festered for years and grew as the slights mounted, until finally I quit 40k entirely. Yet I remain lurking on forums, waging a perpetual shadow war against the gaming empire that betrayed me, fueled by never-ending bitterness and hatred.
Chaos marines, I can empathize.
I don't even have my CSM army anymore, and I still complain like an asshat about the state of CSM.
I have my DP on a shelf, facing my bed. He has a long history of just staring at me.
Total badass in 5E, soloed half an IG gunline on multiple occasions due to luck and positioning, and regularly had duels with Yarrick.
Hey guys I got some great news! It looks like GW has heard our complaints about the codex creep loud and clear and are dialing everything back starting with Tau! In fact it sounds like the Tau codex isn't changing much of anything, just adding a few units and formations. I think we all know what this means...
It means we can expect to continue to enjoy the nice balanced codex we've come to know and love for many years to come!!!
I'm sure you'll all agree this is great news. My friends who play Eldar and Space Marines are always complementing our codex for how nice and balanced it is. They love it! I usually take big 20 man squads of Khorne Berserkers and Possessed backed up by some Mutilators and Warp Talons and just charge them straight across the battlefield! I always get shot to pieces but I find it really helps to Forge the Narrative. We're Chaos afterall - we don't need tactics! Raargh!!! Glory to Chaos!!! Nice and balanced!
Of course I'm sure we can expect some changes. We'll probably get a nice decurion-style formation of some kind. Maybe one that lets our champions reroll their Chaos Boon table result provided we take enough Possessed and Warp Talons. So nice! So balanced! I can hardly wait!!!
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Hey guys I got some great news! It looks like GW has heard our complaints about the codex creep loud and clear and are dialing everything back starting with Tau! In fact it sounds like the Tau codex isn't changing much of anything, just adding a few units and formations. I think we all know what this means...
It means we can expect to continue to enjoy the nice balanced codex we've come to know and love for many years to come!!!
I'm sure you'll all agree this is great news. My friends who play Eldar and Space Marines are always complementing our codex for how nice and balanced it is. They love it! I usually take big 20 man squads of Khorne Berserkers and Possessed backed up by some Mutilators and Warp Talons and just charge them straight across the battlefield! I always get shot to pieces but I find it really helps to Forge the Narrative. We're Chaos afterall - we don't need tactics! Raargh!!! Glory to Chaos!!! Nice and balanced!
Of course I'm sure we can expect some changes. We'll probably get a nice decurion-style formation of some kind. Maybe one that lets our champions reroll their Chaos Boon table result provided we take enough Possessed and Warp Talons. So nice! So balanced! I can hardly wait!!!
What kind of heretical nonsense is this? Tau? Balanced? Blasphemy!
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Hey guys I got some great news! It looks like GW has heard our complaints about the codex creep loud and clear and are dialing everything back starting with Tau! In fact it sounds like the Tau codex isn't changing much of anything, just adding a few units and formations. I think we all know what this means...
It means we can expect to continue to enjoy the nice balanced codex we've come to know and love for many years to come!!!
I'm sure you'll all agree this is great news. My friends who play Eldar and Space Marines are always complementing our codex for how nice and balanced it is. They love it! I usually take big 20 man squads of Khorne Berserkers and Possessed backed up by some Mutilators and Warp Talons and just charge them straight across the battlefield! I always get shot to pieces but I find it really helps to Forge the Narrative. We're Chaos afterall - we don't need tactics! Raargh!!! Glory to Chaos!!! Nice and balanced!
Of course I'm sure we can expect some changes. We'll probably get a nice decurion-style formation of some kind. Maybe one that lets our champions reroll their Chaos Boon table result provided we take enough Possessed and Warp Talons. So nice! So balanced! I can hardly wait!!!
What kind of heretical nonsense is this? Tau? Balanced? Blasphemy!
Sorry, I was referring ton what will happen when Chaos gets the same treatment. No doubt good times will be had by all.
zedmeister wrote: Good lord man, clobber them with the FW book. It's 7th edition 40k, you shouldn't be getting whinged at for bringing legitimate units for your force.
Alternatively, if you want to really induce rage (both in your opponents who for some reason hate FW as well as cause rage in yourself when you realise how poor the Codex is compared to a 30k Legion force), buy these:
Then put together a Word Bearers force with allied Dæmons, a Mhara Gal, Val Gorbak, a Diabolist and then rage some more at how GW got it so wrong and FW got it so right in a much simpler manner.
I play word bearers, and love them with a passion, but have never heard of any of that stuff. Where would i find the rules for it?
I think my all time favourite complaint from Loyalist dogs is having to put with the whining about how OP/broken it is that we can take 2x special weapons on our basic squads, and run 4-5 Plasma guns in squads of Chosen/Havocs...
But Grav is totally balanced and a subtly ingenious new mechanic of course.
Also, I still haven't bought a Helldrake yet as using one would automatically make me a donkeycave WaaC scumbag, and Oblits are apparently better than Grav Cents because they get to tailor their weapons.
I'm pretty sure that if we ever were to get an update, Loyalist players would petition to have all Chaos players banned from events because... "Reasons"
I only run a squad of 2 Obliterators, but I'm thinking of dropping my Havoc squad with 4x autocannons and taking 2x squads of 2x Obliterators. They outshine my havocs every game.
Experiment 626 wrote: I think my all time favourite complaint from Loyalist dogs is having to put with the whining about how OP/broken it is that we can take 2x special weapons on our basic squads, and run 4-5 Plasma guns in squads of Chosen/Havocs...
But Grav is totally balanced and a subtly ingenious new mechanic of course.
Also, I still haven't bought a Helldrake yet as using one would automatically make me a donkeycave WaaC scumbag, and Oblits are apparently better than Grav Cents because they get to tailor their weapons.
I'm pretty sure that if we ever were to get an update, Loyalist players would petition to have all Chaos players banned from events because... "Reasons"
Oh god, back when I still used my CSM, I would get no end of BS from players about how I can take pistols AND CCW's in my troop choices.
Literally no one plays CSM in my LGS. The one guy who did (who was just bad at the game, not because he played CSM) quit and went with Tau. I play Daemons and I'm literally one of the only Chaos players there.
I wish CSM were on par with SM, I really do. They're such a cool looking army.
kronk wrote: I only run a squad of 2 Obliterators, but I'm thinking of dropping my Havoc squad with 4x autocannons and taking 2x squads of 2x Obliterators. They outshine my havocs every game.
Those 4x Obliterators aren't the equivalent of 1 squad of Havocs tho, they are the equivalent of almost 3, with less wounds than just 1. IMO Oblits are ALWAYS over costed for their role, something can always achieve what they did for less points.
I personally prefer Preds. Generally all with Las and I find my auto cannons elsewhere. That being said it's a fairly fluffy list so I'm taking models outside of HS that CAN take AC's so maybe it's not the best option.
Oblits can deep strike which instantly makes them more adaptable than Havocs. Far too often the Dark Angels players one-shots half the Havoc team with a Plasma Cannon despite them getting a 4+ cover save. Or someone sends Ignores Cover snipers onto the field and picks them off. Or the usual volume of fire, drop pods, or psyker shenanigans.
Deep striking Havocs in Terminator armor onto objectives where they can fire upon whatever is still alive while being fairly hard to remove is pretty good for the point value. The Havocs obviously win in terms of firepower but the Oblit still has his uses and surpasses Tactical Terminators in every way.
Arkaine wrote: Oblits can deep strike which instantly makes them more adaptable than Havocs. Far too often the Dark Angels players one-shots half the Havoc team with a Plasma Cannon despite them getting a 4+ cover save. Or someone sends Ignores Cover snipers onto the field and picks them off. Or the usual volume of fire, drop pods, or psyker shenanigans.
Deep striking Havocs in Terminator armor onto objectives where they can fire upon whatever is still alive while being fairly hard to remove is pretty good for the point value. The Havocs obviously win in terms of firepower but the Oblit still has his uses and surpasses Tactical Terminators in every way.
The bigger issues is that both are overcosted and crippled by limited weapon options and/or rules limitations.
On the other hand, Loyalists get cheaper Devastators with a much wider & hugely more effective range of guns, while Cents trump Oblits so hard it isn't even funny... Yet still, Loyalist players & whine endlessly that Oblits are somehow still these god tier units as if we're still playing 4th edition.
Would you guys recommend Oblits in units of 2 or 3? I may give them another try. I don't like that they pay so much for the versatility - sure, the games where your opponent brought no mech they can bring out the flamers or whatever, and vice versa - except then they are just overcosted AI units. And when they don't get to do this they are overcosted AT, a squad of 3 of these costs as much as a Land Raider. Our Land Raider being an overcosted version of the loyalist Land Raider, which is overcosted itself. They are overcosted whatever role they get, I think it's a testament to our actual options that they are so important to CSM.
I usually bring Oblits in groups of 1. Solo oblit can deep strike anywhere and be annoying.
If you take other Heavy Supports and don't have room, as will happen at higher point values, then lump them into groups of 2 or 3 depending on available points and commitment to anti-armor. While not as deadly as Havocs, they have proven themselves far more useful and versatile. In short, they're RELIABLE and in a game about randomness that's a godsend.
My unit of two always seems like enough to kill that one thing I need it to kill/hurt/distract and would sometimes survive long enough to kill/hurt a second thing as a bonus.
Experiment 626 wrote: I think my all time favourite complaint from Loyalist dogs is having to put with the whining about how OP/broken it is that we can take 2x special weapons on our basic squads, and run 4-5 Plasma guns in squads of Chosen/Havocs...
But Grav is totally balanced and a subtly ingenious new mechanic of course.
Also, I still haven't bought a Helldrake yet as using one would automatically make me a donkeycave WaaC scumbag, and Oblits are apparently better than Grav Cents because they get to tailor their weapons.
I'm pretty sure that if we ever were to get an update, Loyalist players would petition to have all Chaos players banned from events because... "Reasons"
Uuuuh, who is complaining about Havocs, Chosen, and Obliterators?
Granted, I'm one of those people that complains about being able to get two Special Weapons. If Tacticals could do that, I wouldn't bring them as a Sternguard squad every game.
As for the Vanilla CSM's being able to get CCW's, it's cute but that's it. Were they a single point, I'd do it for them and Grey Hunters (thanks for that, GW). Carcharodons have the right idea for the price, but seeing that I cannot get a second Melta Gun, I'm back to using Bikers that got their Rage.
There's things wrong in both codices, but at least Loyalists can help you work out those issues. CSM's simply punish you for attempting.
I bought 2 DV sets so I have a small Chaos force as well. Trust me guys, it's GW, they know OP gak makes models sell more, so we should at least get some formations in the next dex to make us fairly balanced.
War Kitten wrote: Is it bad that this whole thread is making me feel guilty for playing space marines?
Yes. Pity not the traitors, Battle Brother. They sold their souls to Chaos for glory and aesthetics. But they found the powers granted by the Warp Gods wanting. Smite them with the Wrath of the Emperor! Our rerollable Grav and invisible Centurions shall guide us to final victory over the heretics!
I have over 40k points of Chaos. I feel your pain. I recently started a Dark Angels force because I need a little change and won't mind winning once in awhile...
Now, I know CSM are bad... But as I build my Dark Angels I realized even more just how bad they are in comparison.
I have 2K Dark Angels, 3K Necrons, and , like I said, over 40k of chaos. I love Chaos and have fun playing th occasionally- but damn, they are frustratingly bad!!
Oh wow, I heard there was a salt party and I am not disappointed. I brought a grip of salt to share, but it seems like everyone brought enough for themselves. Now, who wants to snort some warp dust and cry on my shoulder?
Though as evidenced in the 'Army Tiers' thread, there's still people out there who insist that Helldrakes, Oblist and wait for it... Chosen with special weapons are still gouda approved!
Any codex capable of a strong mono-build. Most non-top teir lists are incapable of fielding entire armies of units that are effective regardless of T / AV. Most armies aren't able to "nearly" guarantee a save for every unit with Jink, RP, or Invuls. No GLARING weaknesses, other than not being Top-Teir.
Chaos Marines - Although suffering from not being Vanilla, are mid-teir thanks to monobuild Helldrake AP 3 "template spam", coupled with Oblits, Chosen, Spawn and a Fast Moving choppy HQ. This style of list can deny cover / MEQ saves, though still suffers from RP and Invuls. It also suffers against Mono-Knights, as it has trouble overcoming the Knights AV / Invul strength. Lowest mobility of MEQ, but has tools to deal with most opposing armies.
Never thought I'd see the day. Don't worry lads, the butt-ugly can't-fire-sideways chicken roaster will save us!
Any codex capable of a strong mono-build. Most non-top teir lists are incapable of fielding entire armies of units that are effective regardless of T / AV. Most armies aren't able to "nearly" guarantee a save for every unit with Jink, RP, or Invuls. No GLARING weaknesses, other than not being Top-Teir.
Chaos Marines - Although suffering from not being Vanilla, are mid-teir thanks to monobuild Helldrake AP 3 "template spam", coupled with Oblits, Chosen, Spawn and a Fast Moving choppy HQ. This style of list can deny cover / MEQ saves, though still suffers from RP and Invuls. It also suffers against Mono-Knights, as it has trouble overcoming the Knights AV / Invul strength. Lowest mobility of MEQ, but has tools to deal with most opposing armies.
Never thought I'd see the day. Don't worry lads, the butt-ugly can't-fire-sideways chicken roaster will save us!
I demand 1ppm Space Marines if the traitors get something halfway decent.
Don't worry, we'll be 4pts/model sure, but with shiny NEW! Chaos Lasguns! (S2/ap +1/Gets Hot), and Warp Powered Armour! (save = D6, must re-roll all successful saves)
Oh, and because Chaos Marines don't know how to maintain any form of technology, our only special/heavy weapon option now will be a 'one use only' Bolter!
I demand 1ppm Space Marines if the traitors get something halfway decent.
Don't worry, we'll be 4pts/model sure, but with shiny NEW! Chaos Lasguns! (S2/ap +1/Gets Hot), and Warp Powered Armour! (save = D6, must re-roll all successful saves)
Oh, and because Chaos Marines don't know how to maintain any form of technology, our only special/heavy weapon option now will be a 'one use only' Bolter!
Whoa, don't forget to roll a d6 to see if it jams! On a 6 it actually shoots.
I demand 1ppm Space Marines if the traitors get something halfway decent.
Don't worry, we'll be 4pts/model sure, but with shiny NEW! Chaos Lasguns! (S2/ap +1/Gets Hot), and Warp Powered Armour! (save = D6, must re-roll all successful saves)
Oh, and because Chaos Marines don't know how to maintain any form of technology, our only special/heavy weapon option now will be a 'one use only' Bolter!
Whoa, don't forget to roll a d6 to see if it jams! On a 6 it actually shoots.
Oooooo that's right! And on a 1-5 it instead explodes catastrophically in the user's hands and inflicts an automatic Str.D hit on the entire unit!
Helldrakes will remain as they are now, with the following changes:
Every time the Heldrake fires, it must roll a D6, on the following table:
1) Nothing
2) The Heldrake may only make snapshots (because its maneuvering, yo)
3) The Heldrake may only fire in a forward arc of 10*
4-6) Roll a D3, and take that number of penetrating hits on the Heldrake (because it cannot exist outside the warp for too long)
a) The last book of 7.5 edition but supposedly designed "with 8th in mind", and thus, we'll be the only army to not get a Decurion/Gladius styled organisation.
Of course, our codex will not work in either 7th or 8th edition, and we'll still be the only army in the game without any built-in synergies to play off of.
b) We'll be the first codex of the "new design" trend that's going to dial everything down to -10.
Of course, as happened in 4th ed, after another codex or two are released under this format, GW will realise that their sales are taking a massive hit thanks to blandhammer styled books, and then go right back to dialing everything back up to 11.
Would it be unreasonable if GW just took a copy of the 3.5 codex, reworked the legion rules a bit to resemble chapter tactics, added warlord traits, some relics, gave chaos a few new guns to compete with grav, and made some cult stuff cheaper and just re-released it?
Gunnvulcan wrote: Would it be unreasonable if GW just took a copy of the 3.5 codex, reworked the legion rules a bit to resemble chapter tactics, added warlord traits, some relics, gave chaos a few new guns to compete with grav, and made some cult stuff cheaper and just re-released it?
I miss that codex :(
Yes.
They'll take all the good stuff, and leave all the bad.
Someone brought up mass cultists earlier in this thread. 2 max sized squads of MoK cultists pack a big punch, but also highlight exactly what's wrong with the Codex. Worst units have the best rules and vice versa.
I like everything that IA:13 gives us but hate the fact the Vanilla Codex is so bad. The Dinobots were supposed to be big improvements in the last Dex but they just don't get the job done. OTOH, give me a Fire Raptor and i can harass 3 units per turn.
You know, we could probably start a very nice salt mine in this thread.
Anyway, I do agree that the CSM book needs a lot of work. It needs to represent them as warriors who have experienced 10,000 years of nonstop warfare. Where did all the pre-heresy stuff go? CSM should still have that stuff in spades, as they took most of theirs with them. Where is all the warp-based tech? I say this as a non CSM player, they deserve all the cool pre-heresy stuff more than us Loyalists, as we can't seem to remember how to even build the frickin' things anymore.
With Formations essentially being just a way to give your army a bunch of special rules for FREE, it'd be great to see god formations in a CSM book.
Take a Nurgle formation and all your guys have +1 Toughness and/or Feel No Pain. Which STILL wouldn't put them on Necron Decurion level of durability and lethality.
A Tzeentch formation might give you +1 invuln saves and Re-roll Failed Psyker tests. Which STILL wouldn't put them on Grey Knights level of 2+ re-rollable Warp Charge generation (plus every unit is a psyker) and Sanctuary/Gate/CF spam.
Slaanesh could use his own formation to give everyone +1 Initiative and Fleet... easily the worst formation but cheaper to field than the other ones...
Lots of possibilities but what it comes down to is Marks of Chaos are something of an unnecessary tax at this point. They should just be rolled into formations built around those gods along with whatever other special rules are appropriate.
War Kitten wrote: You know, we could probably start a very nice salt mine in this thread.
Anyway, I do agree that the CSM book needs a lot of work. It needs to represent them as warriors who have experienced 10,000 years of nonstop warfare. Where did all the pre-heresy stuff go? CSM should still have that stuff in spades, as they took most of theirs with them. Where is all the warp-based tech? I say this as a non CSM player, they deserve all the cool pre-heresy stuff more than us Loyalists, as we can't seem to remember how to even build the frickin' things anymore.
please google search, "Dude! Where's My Landspeeder?"
Vash108 wrote: sold all of mine. Will probably regret it once a new dex hits.
I doubt it... Odds are we get to be the new 'experimental' codex yet again, that will try out whatever new organisational shift once GW tires of the Decurion/Gladius/Warhost styled codices.
techsoldaten wrote: Someone brought up mass cultists earlier in this thread. 2 max sized squads of MoK cultists pack a big punch, but also highlight exactly what's wrong with the Codex. Worst units have the best rules and vice versa.
I like everything that IA:13 gives us but hate the fact the Vanilla Codex is so bad. The Dinobots were supposed to be big improvements in the last Dex but they just don't get the job done. OTOH, give me a Fire Raptor and i can harass 3 units per turn.
Setting my expectations very low for next Dex.
The problem is that when the Fiends and Drake came out, there was little to nothing who could go against it, and it was a real surprise, but then the Tau and Eldar codexes came out, with worse cheese then ever, then you had Knights, for some reason they toned down BA, GK's, SW still the best of the Marines codex, DA's poor sodes also took the shaft right between the bum cheeks, DE was kinda Meh, but since their battle bros with Eldars and Harlequins they can do better, then 7th hit and we had even more Gak.
And in all this Gak fest, we are still stuck with a CC specilized walker that has WS and Init 3..., or shooting specialized machines with BS 3..., on the 20's-ish formations we have only 4-5 are workable and the rest is just useless.
The problem is that our codex quickly was left behind in the dust during 6th and it din't get better during 7th, KDK was a tiny step forward, but thats just it somekind of "nice try guys, but you can do better next time", now we wait, we wait to see what catastrophe will befall us, or maybe the dex will be nice or even good,...and then 4 months later 8th Ed/Age of Horus hits and we are still left in the dust...
He's talking about 6th ed Dark Angels, who were definitely on the same level as CSM's. Both books got immediately left behind by the Tau - Daemons - Eldar triple whammy.
Selym wrote: 7 Plague Marines with 2 plasmaguns in a rhino with combi-bolter and havok launcher. Take that three times, with a zombie horde and two Heldrakes.
"cheese"
I've played against variations of this and I hate it so much. Usually there are some flying daemon princes and heralds summoning more units to the table. Playing against these lists it's kinda hard to share the sentiment that CSM are a trash tier codex. The one fun thing about these games is checking my Interrogator-Chaplain's kill count. My record is 40 zombies just by himself.
But those who have told me that were Tau, Eldar and Cron players. Essentially my best friends (lol)
[...]
If I ever play my CSM I'm at a monetary loss on equal point value simply because by playing CSM I require FW in order to be competitive. Every time I throw out a FW model, I am peppered with "Really bro?" "Are you serious?" & "Why bring FW, aren't you skilled enough without that?" Sorry but last I checked my 35 cultists won't be tabling you on their own. This can be from a friend who generally collects FW models himself (As Tau, owning 2 R'Varna and 2 Riptides and a Y'Varna) but would roll his eyes when the notion of a Fire Raptor Gunship would cross my mind for todays game.
</3 CSM>
The harsh reality is that I've still gotten pressure for using a Helldrake. If you take the decent units from the book you're a jerk that wins at all costs. If you play Chaos you're a naive fool who purposefully accepts handicaps.
I'm quite happy with the state of the Codex because it allows me to surprise people and catch them off guard. Even without Forgeworld. Chaos is a threat lurking in the eye, forgotten, as we are after every Black Crusade ends.
Kraytirous wrote: The harsh reality is that I've still gotten pressure for using a Helldrake. If you take the decent units from the book you're a jerk that wins at all costs. If you play Chaos you're a naive fool who purposefully accepts handicaps.
I'm quite happy with the state of the Codex because it allows me to surprise people and catch them off guard. Even without Forgeworld. Chaos is a threat lurking in the eye, forgotten, as we are after every Black Crusade ends.
It's unfortunate because at least the Heldrake is a unique model and unit. One of the gripes I have about FW for CSM is that most of our stuff is a clone of the Imperium stuff. Typhon, Fellblade, Sicaran, Thunderhawk, Fire Raptor, Chaos Knight, Dreadclaw, they're all just spikey bits versions of the SM ones with maybe a different rule here or there. Our Chaos Warhound Titan and Chaos Reaver Titan are just like the other titans with little making them stand out as Chaotic beyond their daemon transformation.
The Lord of Skulls, the Brass Scorpion, the Kytan Daemon Engine, the Blood Slaughterer, the Plague Hulk, things like this are what really define Chaos in the FW lineup. Trouble is fitting any of them into a list worthy of being played. The SM clones are just better.
Selym wrote: 7 Plague Marines with 2 plasmaguns in a rhino with combi-bolter and havok launcher. Take that three times, with a zombie horde and two Heldrakes.
Akiasura wrote: You really want the smallest amount of plague marines per plasma gun, as the pg is going to do the heavy lifting.
If codex marines could do 5 guys with 2 specials it's all you would see, imo.
Back in the day they could do 1x Special + Heavy in minimum sized 5 man squads, and it was all you ever saw of Tactical Marines! Min/maxed Las/Plas squads as far as the eye could see...
Akiasura wrote: You really want the smallest amount of plague marines per plasma gun, as the pg is going to do the heavy lifting.
If codex marines could do 5 guys with 2 specials it's all you would see, imo.
Back in the day they could do 1x Special + Heavy in minimum sized 5 man squads, and it was all you ever saw of Tactical Marines! Min/maxed Las/Plas squads as far as the eye could see...
And BT crusaders squads do the same thing when they're not black tiding.
Akiasura wrote: You really want the smallest amount of plague marines per plasma gun, as the pg is going to do the heavy lifting.
If codex marines could do 5 guys with 2 specials it's all you would see, imo.
Back in the day they could do 1x Special + Heavy in minimum sized 5 man squads, and it was all you ever saw of Tactical Marines! Min/maxed Las/Plas squads as far as the eye could see...
And BT crusaders squads do the same thing when they're not black tiding.
I have a feeling that the only reason Loyalist players don't (ab)use Crusader squads is because they don't fit within the Gladius Strike Force formation.
Akiasura wrote: You really want the smallest amount of plague marines per plasma gun, as the pg is going to do the heavy lifting.
If codex marines could do 5 guys with 2 specials it's all you would see, imo.
Back in the day they could do 1x Special + Heavy in minimum sized 5 man squads, and it was all you ever saw of Tactical Marines! Min/maxed Las/Plas squads as far as the eye could see...
And BT crusaders squads do the same thing when they're not black tiding.
I have a feeling that the only reason Loyalist players don't (ab)use Crusader squads is because they don't fit within the Gladius Strike Force formation.
It has more to do with Chapter Tactics than anything else. BTCT aren't that great.
Right, I have no reason to be salty here, but dammit if I haven't got some to spare!
I think the biggest issue is that the Chaos codex has lost the title of "most scary mofos in the game". They had the best Monstrous Creatures, the Daemon Prince, and some really got psykers and Lords once, but now, they are decidely subpar. Even the rather large 20 CSM blobs aren't really all that powerful anymore.
For CSM to get back into the game, I think the models need some help - Chaos Lords should easily be one of the most dangerous models to meet in close combat, and a Sorcerer should be able to dominate a similar Psyker, simply for being alligned with Chaos. Heck, let Aspiring Champions get Psyker levels again, that'd be fun.
Also, it's not solely CSM... Several other armies also need a big helping of nerf. In fact, the current way the game is designed should really be nerfed and changed altogether xD
Na, true. I just want to get back to the days where what people had problems with was trip-Heldrakes or Rhino Rush. That gak was at least somewhat manageable... This... Formation-ass-gak is just not. I can't see where the cheese begins, and the whoobies end. Even if one formation was nerfed, another one would stand up as clearly better. In fact, as far as I know, only the Blood Angels Formations and Detatchment seem somewhat tangible and sensible. They give small boost and such, fluffy things.
I really don't mind detatchments, as long as they are like the Angel Strike Force or that hunter one for Space Wolves... That changes how you play, it doesn't just give you cookies. It's all those decurions that show just how far from all that CSM is.
It's somewhat soothing, really, to know that there still is some armies free of that untangible bs that is detatchments, formations, Super-Heavies and Gargantuans.
Akiasura wrote: You really want the smallest amount of plague marines per plasma gun, as the pg is going to do the heavy lifting.
If codex marines could do 5 guys with 2 specials it's all you would see, imo.
Back in the day they could do 1x Special + Heavy in minimum sized 5 man squads, and it was all you ever saw of Tactical Marines! Min/maxed Las/Plas squads as far as the eye could see...
And BT crusaders squads do the same thing when they're not black tiding.
I have a feeling that the only reason Loyalist players don't (ab)use Crusader squads is because they don't fit within the Gladius Strike Force formation.
It has more to do with Chapter Tactics than anything else. BTCT aren't that great.
If you build the army around them, black tide style, they stack up with other useful things and make you more effective as an assaulting army. However, if you're not going to crusade it up they're pointless.
>
codex? 
& whine endlessly that Oblits are somehow still these god tier units as if we're still playing 4th edition. 
