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 War Kitten wrote:
You know, we could probably start a very nice salt mine in this thread.

Anyway, I do agree that the CSM book needs a lot of work. It needs to represent them as warriors who have experienced 10,000 years of nonstop warfare. Where did all the pre-heresy stuff go? CSM should still have that stuff in spades, as they took most of theirs with them. Where is all the warp-based tech? I say this as a non CSM player, they deserve all the cool pre-heresy stuff more than us Loyalists, as we can't seem to remember how to even build the frickin' things anymore.

please google search, "Dude! Where's My Landspeeder?"

sold all of mine. Will probably regret it once a new dex hits.

 Vash108 wrote:
sold all of mine. Will probably regret it once a new dex hits.

I doubt it... Odds are we get to be the new 'experimental' codex yet again, that will try out whatever new organisational shift once GW tires of the Decurion/Gladius/Warhost styled codices.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Someone brought up mass cultists earlier in this thread. 2 max sized squads of MoK cultists pack a big punch, but also highlight exactly what's wrong with the Codex. Worst units have the best rules and vice versa.

I like everything that IA:13 gives us but hate the fact the Vanilla Codex is so bad. The Dinobots were supposed to be big improvements in the last Dex but they just don't get the job done. OTOH, give me a Fire Raptor and i can harass 3 units per turn.

Setting my expectations very low for next Dex.

The problem is that when the Fiends and Drake came out, there was little to nothing who could go against it, and it was a real surprise, but then the Tau and Eldar codexes came out, with worse cheese then ever, then you had Knights, for some reason they toned down BA, GK's, SW still the best of the Marines codex, DA's poor sodes also took the shaft right between the bum cheeks, DE was kinda Meh, but since their battle bros with Eldars and Harlequins they can do better, then 7th hit and we had even more Gak.

And in all this Gak fest, we are still stuck with a CC specilized walker that has WS and Init 3..., or shooting specialized machines with BS 3..., on the 20's-ish formations we have only 4-5 are workable and the rest is just useless.

The problem is that our codex quickly was left behind in the dust during 6th and it din't get better during 7th, KDK was a tiny step forward, but thats just it somekind of "nice try guys, but you can do better next time", now we wait, we wait to see what catastrophe will befall us, or maybe the dex will be nice or even good,...and then 4 months later 8th Ed/Age of Horus hits and we are still left in the dust...

Uh, what? DA are great.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Uh, what? DA are great.

He's talking about 6th ed Dark Angels, who were definitely on the same level as CSM's. Both books got immediately left behind by the Tau - Daemons - Eldar triple whammy.

Be a dick and go full typhus zombie on their asses.

7 Plague Marines with 2 plasmaguns in a rhino with combi-bolter and havok launcher. Take that three times, with a zombie horde and two Heldrakes.

"cheese"

 Selym wrote:
7 Plague Marines with 2 plasmaguns in a rhino with combi-bolter and havok launcher. Take that three times, with a zombie horde and two Heldrakes.

"cheese"

I've played against variations of this and I hate it so much. Usually there are some flying daemon princes and heralds summoning more units to the table. Playing against these lists it's kinda hard to share the sentiment that CSM are a trash tier codex. The one fun thing about these games is checking my Interrogator-Chaplain's kill count. My record is 40 zombies just by himself.

You say that, but the list is boring as hell for most CSM players, and still gets readily countered by most players.

*sigh*

 Eldarain wrote:
It's just GW helping us Forge the Narrative of being wretched twisted bitter exiles living in a constant hellscape.

Really their best work when you think about it.

haha yes! This must be the answer.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

But those who have told me that were Tau, Eldar and Cron players. Essentially my best friends (lol)

[...]

If I ever play my CSM I'm at a monetary loss on equal point value simply because by playing CSM I require FW in order to be competitive. Every time I throw out a FW model, I am peppered with "Really bro?" "Are you serious?" & "Why bring FW, aren't you skilled enough without that?" Sorry but last I checked my 35 cultists won't be tabling you on their own. This can be from a friend who generally collects FW models himself (As Tau, owning 2 R'Varna and 2 Riptides and a Y'Varna) but would roll his eyes when the notion of a Fire Raptor Gunship would cross my mind for todays game.

</3 CSM >

The harsh reality is that I've still gotten pressure for using a Helldrake. If you take the decent units from the book you're a jerk that wins at all costs. If you play Chaos you're a naive fool who purposefully accepts handicaps.

I'm quite happy with the state of the Codex because it allows me to surprise people and catch them off guard. Even without Forgeworld. Chaos is a threat lurking in the eye, forgotten, as we are after every Black Crusade ends.

 Kraytirous wrote:
The harsh reality is that I've still gotten pressure for using a Helldrake. If you take the decent units from the book you're a jerk that wins at all costs. If you play Chaos you're a naive fool who purposefully accepts handicaps.

I'm quite happy with the state of the Codex because it allows me to surprise people and catch them off guard. Even without Forgeworld. Chaos is a threat lurking in the eye, forgotten, as we are after every Black Crusade ends.

It's unfortunate because at least the Heldrake is a unique model and unit. One of the gripes I have about FW for CSM is that most of our stuff is a clone of the Imperium stuff. Typhon, Fellblade, Sicaran, Thunderhawk, Fire Raptor, Chaos Knight, Dreadclaw, they're all just spikey bits versions of the SM ones with maybe a different rule here or there. Our Chaos Warhound Titan and Chaos Reaver Titan are just like the other titans with little making them stand out as Chaotic beyond their daemon transformation.

The Lord of Skulls, the Brass Scorpion, the Kytan Daemon Engine, the Blood Slaughterer, the Plague Hulk, things like this are what really define Chaos in the FW lineup. Trouble is fitting any of them into a list worthy of being played. The SM clones are just better.

 Selym wrote:
7 Plague Marines with 2 plasmaguns in a rhino with combi-bolter and havok launcher. Take that three times, with a zombie horde and two Heldrakes.

"cheese"

I'd go as far as to say 6 Plague Marines is fine.

You really want the smallest amount of plague marines per plasma gun, as the pg is going to do the heavy lifting.

If codex marines could do 5 guys with 2 specials it's all you would see, imo.

Akiasura wrote:
You really want the smallest amount of plague marines per plasma gun, as the pg is going to do the heavy lifting.

If codex marines could do 5 guys with 2 specials it's all you would see, imo.

Back in the day they could do 1x Special + Heavy in minimum sized 5 man squads, and it was all you ever saw of Tactical Marines! Min/maxed Las/Plas squads as far as the eye could see...

Experiment 626 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
You really want the smallest amount of plague marines per plasma gun, as the pg is going to do the heavy lifting.

If codex marines could do 5 guys with 2 specials it's all you would see, imo.

Back in the day they could do 1x Special + Heavy in minimum sized 5 man squads, and it was all you ever saw of Tactical Marines! Min/maxed Las/Plas squads as far as the eye could see...

And BT crusaders squads do the same thing when they're not black tiding.

 Selym wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
You really want the smallest amount of plague marines per plasma gun, as the pg is going to do the heavy lifting.

If codex marines could do 5 guys with 2 specials it's all you would see, imo.

Back in the day they could do 1x Special + Heavy in minimum sized 5 man squads, and it was all you ever saw of Tactical Marines! Min/maxed Las/Plas squads as far as the eye could see...

And BT crusaders squads do the same thing when they're not black tiding.

I have a feeling that the only reason Loyalist players don't (ab)use Crusader squads is because they don't fit within the Gladius Strike Force formation.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
You really want the smallest amount of plague marines per plasma gun, as the pg is going to do the heavy lifting.

If codex marines could do 5 guys with 2 specials it's all you would see, imo.

Back in the day they could do 1x Special + Heavy in minimum sized 5 man squads, and it was all you ever saw of Tactical Marines! Min/maxed Las/Plas squads as far as the eye could see...

And BT crusaders squads do the same thing when they're not black tiding.

I have a feeling that the only reason Loyalist players don't (ab)use Crusader squads is because they don't fit within the Gladius Strike Force formation.

It has more to do with Chapter Tactics than anything else. BT CT aren't that great.

Right, I have no reason to be salty here, but dammit if I haven't got some to spare!

I think the biggest issue is that the Chaos codex has lost the title of "most scary mofos in the game". They had the best Monstrous Creatures, the Daemon Prince, and some really got psykers and Lords once, but now, they are decidely subpar. Even the rather large 20 CSM blobs aren't really all that powerful anymore.

For CSM to get back into the game, I think the models need some help - Chaos Lords should easily be one of the most dangerous models to meet in close combat, and a Sorcerer should be able to dominate a similar Psyker, simply for being alligned with Chaos. Heck, let Aspiring Champions get Psyker levels again, that'd be fun.

Also, it's not solely CSM... Several other armies also need a big helping of nerf. In fact, the current way the game is designed should really be nerfed and changed altogether xD

I feel like you're hinting towards a few PARTICULAR ARMIES...

Even if you nerfed those armies, it still doesn't make 3/4 of the codex any more usable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, 1/4 being usable is a buy generous...

I'm honestly at the point at which I would kinda prefer if geedubs just died or only made models and the game became community organized.

Na, true. I just want to get back to the days where what people had problems with was trip-Heldrakes or Rhino Rush. That gak was at least somewhat manageable... This... Formation-ass-gak is just not. I can't see where the cheese begins, and the whoobies end. Even if one formation was nerfed, another one would stand up as clearly better. In fact, as far as I know, only the Blood Angels Formations and Detatchment seem somewhat tangible and sensible. They give small boost and such, fluffy things.

I really don't mind detatchments, as long as they are like the Angel Strike Force or that hunter one for Space Wolves... That changes how you play, it doesn't just give you cookies. It's all those decurions that show just how far from all that CSM is.

It's somewhat soothing, really, to know that there still is some armies free of that untangible bs that is detatchments, formations, Super-Heavies and Gargantuans.

What are you're thoughts on the admech codices? When used together as they seem like they're supposed to be, they appear quite fair.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
You really want the smallest amount of plague marines per plasma gun, as the pg is going to do the heavy lifting.

If codex marines could do 5 guys with 2 specials it's all you would see, imo.

Back in the day they could do 1x Special + Heavy in minimum sized 5 man squads, and it was all you ever saw of Tactical Marines! Min/maxed Las/Plas squads as far as the eye could see...

And BT crusaders squads do the same thing when they're not black tiding.

I have a feeling that the only reason Loyalist players don't (ab)use Crusader squads is because they don't fit within the Gladius Strike Force formation.

It has more to do with Chapter Tactics than anything else. BT CT aren't that great.

If you build the army around them, black tide style, they stack up with other useful things and make you more effective as an assaulting army. However, if you're not going to crusade it up they're pointless.