Warboss Gorhack wrote:
This has been done to death in other threads. Not sure why you want to dredge it up yet again. Do some searching and you'll find a mix of thoughtful analysis and rampant fanboyism.

I am curious why you want to delete the iconic IOM troop type, the one that defines the 40k genre, from your scenario.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:

I am curious why you want to delete the iconic IOM troop type, the one that defines the 40k genre, from your scenario.

Because bringing in Astartes would completely tip the scales in favor of IoM.

blaktoof wrote:
Ewoks.

Mudrat wrote:
Actually, looking at the older forum that Ratius provided, one of the key points was that the Galactic Empire has no hyperspace charts of the Imperium, which would make travelling via lightspeed suicidal. However, the Empires speed advantage would remain intact for fighting in their own territory, which would make any Imperial attack impossible.
Basically the Imperium will win in their own territory because the Empire cannot travel through it at lightspeed, while the Imperium cannot mount any effective attacks on the Empire. What I would be interested in seeing is how: 1) The various xeno's react (particualy Tau and Dark Eldar) and 2) what would happen if, while exploring at non-lightspeed, the Empire found a planet that the Imperium never found due to it being isolated from the warp tides or something.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Again? Oh very well then, it seems fate has decreed there shall always be a thread like this. Maybe Star Wars vs 40k threads can be added to Dakka bingo?

Everything wins against the Galactic Empire because it has the worst trained army ever. Stormtroopers can't hit anything and all Imperial leaders save for Thrawn seem to be hugely incompetent douchebags. They lost to Ewoks for God's sake, before being defeated by a bunch of ragtag rebel scum.
In the meanwhile, the Imperium was capable of holding out against pretty much half of its armies and the AdMech rising up in rebellion. On the ground, it is not much of a contest, the Empire will be slaughtered.
In space, it is not much of contest either, if only for the fact that without proper navigational charts, the Empire's ships won't be hyperspacing anywhere. Same for the Imperium's ships without the Warp.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Again? Oh very well then, it seems fate has decreed there shall always be a thread like this. Maybe Star Wars vs 40k threads can be added to Dakka bingo?

Everything wins against the Galactic Empire because it has the worst trained army ever. Stormtroopers can't hit anything and all Imperial leaders save for Thrawn seem to be hugely incompetent douchebags. They lost to Ewoks for God's sake, before being defeated by a bunch of ragtag rebel scum.
In the meanwhile, the Imperium was capable of holding out against pretty much half of its armies and the AdMech rising up in rebellion. On the ground, it is not much of a contest, the Empire will be slaughtered.
In space, it is not much of contest either, if only for the fact that without proper navigational charts, the Empire's ships won't be hyperspacing anywhere. Same for the Imperium's ships without the Warp.

See above regarding mapping out the Galaxy.

As for Stormtrooper accuracy, watch Episode 4, when they board the Tantive IV. Stormtroopers enter through a heavily guarded checkpoint and not only do they inflict more casualties than they sustain, they force the Rebel defenders to fall back.

 PhillyT wrote:
I say Star Wars primarily because of the massive speed advantage and the huge Navy advantage.

The Imperial Navy, at tis height, is supposed to have 25,000 Star Destroyers alone, not counting the thousands of smaller ships and fighters capable of carrying weapons powerful enough to damage capital ships.

Mudrat wrote:
Unfortunately for them, the Imperium has no 'death star' equivalent, and their is no way for them to destroy the Imperial command like the rebels did in Episode VI, so even if it took a few decades/a century, the Imperium would win through their sheer unending manpower.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
Unfortunately for them, the Imperium has no 'death star' equivalent, and their is no way for them to destroy the Imperial command like the rebels did in Episode VI, so even if it took a few decades/a century, the Imperium would win through their sheer unending manpower.

Terra. Destroy it and the Imperium loses most FTL travel and according to some background every human being becomes a gateway for Daemons (due to the death of the Emperor).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
Unfortunately for them, the Imperium has no 'death star' equivalent, and their is no way for them to destroy the Imperial command like the rebels did in Episode VI, so even if it took a few decades/a century, the Imperium would win through their sheer unending manpower.

Terra. Destroy it and the Imperium loses most FTL travel and according to some background every human being becomes a gateway for Daemons (due to the death of the Emperor).

Mudrat wrote:
Unfortunately for them, the Imperium has no 'death star' equivalent, and their is no way for them to destroy the Imperial command like the rebels did in Episode VI, so even if it took a few decades/a century, the Imperium would win through their sheer unending manpower.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
Unfortunately for them, the Imperium has no 'death star' equivalent, and their is no way for them to destroy the Imperial command like the rebels did in Episode VI, so even if it took a few decades/a century, the Imperium would win through their sheer unending manpower.

Correct, the Imperium doesn't have the equivalent of a Death Star. They have something far more effective, because they're not stupid like the Empire. They have Cyclonic Torpedoes and Virus Bombs, and almost every ship has continent leveling firepower just from its conventional weaponry.

The Empire had one station which could destroy one planet at a time. But any Imperium ship with torpedo tubes(which is the vast majority of them) can kill a planet if so desired. Even one virus bomb is certain doom for any planet, more just makes it happen faster.

The Death Star showing up at Terra would also get destroyed long before it got into firing range. Its the perfect target for the Imperium to deal with, large and slow moving. Alternately, the Imperium simply swamps the Death Star by teleporting thousands of troops inside it. They take control of it before it can fire and now the Adeptus Mechanicus has a new toy. A few years later a "new STC" is discovered, and now the Imperium has Hyperspace drives and Super Lasers mounted on their ships.

Mudrat wrote:


that is a good point.
however, what I meant by "the Imperium has no death star" was that there was no renowned unique superweapon that the empire could group up, ambush, and destroy the same way the rebels did to both death stars, hurting the enemy and drastically affecting their morale.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Again? Oh very well then, it seems fate has decreed there shall always be a thread like this. Maybe Star Wars vs 40k threads can be added to Dakka bingo?

Everything wins against the Galactic Empire because it has the worst trained army ever. Stormtroopers can't hit anything and all Imperial leaders save for Thrawn seem to be hugely incompetent douchebags. They lost to Ewoks for God's sake, before being defeated by a bunch of ragtag rebel scum.
In the meanwhile, the Imperium was capable of holding out against pretty much half of its armies and the AdMech rising up in rebellion. On the ground, it is not much of a contest, the Empire will be slaughtered.
In space, it is not much of contest either, if only for the fact that without proper navigational charts, the Empire's ships won't be hyperspacing anywhere. Same for the Imperium's ships without the Warp.

See above regarding mapping out the Galaxy.

As for Stormtrooper accuracy, watch Episode 4, when they board the Tantive IV. Stormtroopers enter through a heavily guarded checkpoint and not only do they inflict more casualties than they sustain, they force the Rebel defenders to fall back.

That says more about the Rebels being horrible soldiers than about the Stormtroopers being good. Seriously, they just walk into the line of fire without any cover whatsoever, without throwing in some grenades first or something similar. They present a slow moving, big white target in full sight of the defenders, without cover at a distance of just a few meters. And still the rebel soldiers can barely hit them. The fact that the Stormtroopers only took two casualties is entirely due to Rebel ineptitude, not due to the Stormtrooper's great skill at stumbling around in hallways.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Someone asks this question once every so often and the answer is always the same.

A Star Destroyer is about the size of an Imperial frigate in 40k. A Super Star Destroyer is slightly bigger than an Imperial cruiser. On top of the size differential Warhammer cruisers are perfectly capable of cracking a planet, something A New Hope implies is far beyond the capacity of the entire Imperial fleet shooting full power at one planet. The Battlefleet Gothic books suggest that, among other things, Imperial ships are capable of combat at ranges orders of magnitude greater than anything we see in a Star Wars movie, with vastly larger and more powerful weapons.

So if the two settings ever ran into each other half a sector battlefleet could probably take the entire Galactic Empire to the cleaners. If you want a less one-sided crossover try Star Trek, where the ships are under half a kilometer long and can still crack planets by themselves.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Again? Oh very well then, it seems fate has decreed there shall always be a thread like this. Maybe Star Wars vs 40k threads can be added to Dakka bingo?

Everything wins against the Galactic Empire because it has the worst trained army ever. Stormtroopers can't hit anything and all Imperial leaders save for Thrawn seem to be hugely incompetent douchebags. They lost to Ewoks for God's sake, before being defeated by a bunch of ragtag rebel scum.
In the meanwhile, the Imperium was capable of holding out against pretty much half of its armies and the AdMech rising up in rebellion. On the ground, it is not much of a contest, the Empire will be slaughtered.
In space, it is not much of contest either, if only for the fact that without proper navigational charts, the Empire's ships won't be hyperspacing anywhere. Same for the Imperium's ships without the Warp.

See above regarding mapping out the Galaxy.

As for Stormtrooper accuracy, watch Episode 4, when they board the Tantive IV. Stormtroopers enter through a heavily guarded checkpoint and not only do they inflict more casualties than they sustain, they force the Rebel defenders to fall back.

That says more about the Rebels being horrible soldiers than about the Stormtroopers being good. Seriously, they just walk into the line of fire without any cover whatsoever, without throwing in some grenades first or something similar. They present a slow moving, big white target in full sight of the defenders, without cover at a distance of just a few meters. And still the rebel soldiers can barely hit them. The fact that the Stormtroopers only took two casualties is entirely due to Rebel ineptitude, not due to the Stormtrooper's great skill at stumbling around in hallways.

My comment had nothing to do with tactics. It was pointing out that your comment about Stormtroopers never hitting anything is clearly false. The only time they ever seem to miss is (surprise) when shooting at the main characters, who naturally have plot armour to keep them alive.

 Happyjew wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Someone asks this question once every so often and the answer is always the same.

A Star Destroyer is about the size of an Imperial frigate in 40k. A Super Star Destroyer is slightly bigger than an Imperial cruiser. On top of the size differential Warhammer cruisers are perfectly capable of cracking a planet, something A New Hope implies is far beyond the capacity of the entire Imperial fleet shooting full power at one planet. The Battlefleet Gothic books suggest that, among other things, Imperial ships are capable of combat at ranges orders of magnitude greater than anything we see in a Star Wars movie, with vastly larger and more powerful weapons.

So if the two settings ever ran into each other half a sector battlefleet could probably take the entire Galactic Empire to the cleaners. If you want a less one-sided crossover try Star Trek, where the ships are under half a kilometer long and can still crack planets by themselves.

Super Star Destroyers are 19 km long. How long is a cruiser? Hint it is less than 10 km.

A New Hope does not imply that the entire fleet could not crack the planet. It implies that the entire fleet could not cause a planet to violently explode in such a short time.

Assuming when you say "Star Trek" you are referring to just the UFP, Star Wars would crush them. Not only would a troop transport be able to destroy the Enterprise one on one, the Slave I could do it. And that's a 1-pilot patrol ship.

Spoiler:

Mudrat wrote:

true. But the Imperium knows that this is their only real weakness, and I was under the impression it has a freaking huge fleet there at all times from previous Imperium vs X forums.
even if there was no fleet, the Imperial Palace isn't exactly the easiest thing to break into. Ask the Iron warriors.

Wyzilla wrote:Star Wars doesn't have the firepower to destroy Terra. It possesses the most powerful void shields in the Imperium, and we already know that void shields are strong enough to shrug off Exterminatus.

Grey Templar wrote:The Death Star showing up at Terra would also get destroyed long before it got into firing range. Its the perfect target for the Imperium to deal with, large and slow moving. Alternately, the Imperium simply swamps the Death Star by teleporting thousands of troops inside it. They take control of it before it can fire and now the Adeptus Mechanicus has a new toy. A few years later a "new STC" is discovered, and now the Imperium has Hyperspace drives and Super Lasers mounted on their ships.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

One of the Death Stars had force fields. I'm not sure teleportation would work through it even if it is totally different technology to void shields (can you teleport through Tau forcefields?).

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Again? Oh very well then, it seems fate has decreed there shall always be a thread like this. Maybe Star Wars vs 40k threads can be added to Dakka bingo?

Everything wins against the Galactic Empire because it has the worst trained army ever. Stormtroopers can't hit anything and all Imperial leaders save for Thrawn seem to be hugely incompetent douchebags. They lost to Ewoks for God's sake, before being defeated by a bunch of ragtag rebel scum.
In the meanwhile, the Imperium was capable of holding out against pretty much half of its armies and the AdMech rising up in rebellion. On the ground, it is not much of a contest, the Empire will be slaughtered.
In space, it is not much of contest either, if only for the fact that without proper navigational charts, the Empire's ships won't be hyperspacing anywhere. Same for the Imperium's ships without the Warp.

See above regarding mapping out the Galaxy.

As for Stormtrooper accuracy, watch Episode 4, when they board the Tantive IV. Stormtroopers enter through a heavily guarded checkpoint and not only do they inflict more casualties than they sustain, they force the Rebel defenders to fall back.

That says more about the Rebels being horrible soldiers than about the Stormtroopers being good. Seriously, they just walk into the line of fire without any cover whatsoever, without throwing in some grenades first or something similar. They present a slow moving, big white target in full sight of the defenders, without cover at a distance of just a few meters. And still the rebel soldiers can barely hit them. The fact that the Stormtroopers only took two casualties is entirely due to Rebel ineptitude, not due to the Stormtrooper's great skill at stumbling around in hallways.

My comment had nothing to do with tactics. It was pointing out that your comment about Stormtroopers never hitting anything is clearly false. The only time they ever seem to miss is (surprise) when shooting at the main characters, who naturally have plot armour to keep them alive.

So? Never hitting anything is hyperbole of course, but that does not change the fact that Stormtroopers are notoriously bad at aiming and are horrible soldiers. Far worse than the battle droids from the prequels even.

 Happyjew wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Someone asks this question once every so often and the answer is always the same.

A Star Destroyer is about the size of an Imperial frigate in 40k. A Super Star Destroyer is slightly bigger than an Imperial cruiser. On top of the size differential Warhammer cruisers are perfectly capable of cracking a planet, something A New Hope implies is far beyond the capacity of the entire Imperial fleet shooting full power at one planet. The Battlefleet Gothic books suggest that, among other things, Imperial ships are capable of combat at ranges orders of magnitude greater than anything we see in a Star Wars movie, with vastly larger and more powerful weapons.

So if the two settings ever ran into each other half a sector battlefleet could probably take the entire Galactic Empire to the cleaners. If you want a less one-sided crossover try Star Trek, where the ships are under half a kilometer long and can still crack planets by themselves.

Super Star Destroyers are 19 km long. How long is a cruiser? Hint it is less than 10 km.

A New Hope does not imply that the entire fleet could not crack the planet. It implies that the entire fleet could not cause a planet to violently explode in such a short time.

Assuming when you say "Star Trek" you are referring to just the UFP, Star Wars would crush them. Not only would a troop transport be able to destroy the Enterprise one on one, the Slave I could do it. And that's a 1-pilot patrol ship.

Yeah, Super Star Destroyers are huge, but there is only a few of them.
Here is a good comparison chart for Star wars and 40k ships:

Spoiler:

Ships in Star Wars are indeed capable of pretty devastating planetary bombardment and have no problem wiping out entire planets, though their weapons are not so devastating as those in 40k.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
No one's considering weapon placement on the ships.

If you consider that the 40k ships have higher power weaponry, the issue is they have a limited fire arc.

A star destroyer is competent at bringing a lot of it's weaponry to bare in any direction other than backwards. A star destroyer could literally sit a few hundred meters away on top of an imperial cruiser, bombarding it whilst the cruise will be fighting back with anti star fighter weaponry at best.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Plus their shields are demonstrably not all that powerful. Remember a single A-wing crashed through the bridge of the Executor, which totally crippled it and caused it to crash into the Death Star II.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
I say Star Wars primarily because of the massive speed advantage and the huge Navy advantage.

The Imperial Navy, at tis height, is supposed to have 25,000 Star Destroyers alone, not counting the thousands of smaller ships and fighters capable of carrying weapons powerful enough to damage capital ships.

By conservative estimations, the 40k Imperial Navy significantly outnumbers the Galactic Empire's navy. Not to mention the smallest 40k escort class vessel is larger than a Star Destroyer and has far more devastating weaponry.

25,000 Star Destroyers is rather pitiful, and the smaller ships are going to be even more useless.

Literally the only advantage Star Wars has is that their FTL is faster. In all other areas they are inferior. They are less numerous, carry less powerful weapons, and are less durable.


Then there is the following problem. The Star Wars universe is, to put it bluntly, full of incompetent individuals and weak willed people. The Empire/Republic only had a few million soldiers at their greatest numbers, yet even with this very tiny numbers they were still capable of maintaining a moderate amount of control over their galaxy, yet they were also overthrown by a few thousand poorly trained and equipped freedom fighters.

This tells us that nobody in Star Wars really has the stomach for actual warfare. The civilians are so cowardly that they can be controlled with barely any threat at all, and the soldiers of the most powerful faction have never actually faced up to the horrors a truly galaxy spanning conflict against a foe who doesn't pull punches would unleash on them.

Any fight that Star Wars gets sucked into is going to be a bloodbath. The difference is that the Empire would not be able to sustain their numbers OR be able to maintain good morale. The Imperium is more than happy to throw troops into the meat grinder because they have literally infinite manpower. The casualties would absolutely horrify the Empire's soldiers as they got overwhelmed with sheer numbers, and an opposing warmachine on a scale they cannot imagine.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
I say Star Wars primarily because of the massive speed advantage and the huge Navy advantage.

The Imperial Navy, at tis height, is supposed to have 25,000 Star Destroyers alone, not counting the thousands of smaller ships and fighters capable of carrying weapons powerful enough to damage capital ships.

By conservative estimations, the 40k Imperial Navy significantly outnumbers the Galactic Empire's navy. Not to mention the smallest 40k escort class vessel is larger than a Star Destroyer and has far more devastating weaponry.

25,000 Star Destroyers is rather pitiful, and the smaller ships are going to be even more useless.

Literally the only advantage Star Wars has is that their FTL is faster. In all other areas they are inferior. They are less numerous, carry less powerful weapons, and are less durable.


Then there is the following problem. The Star Wars universe is, to put it bluntly, full of incompetent individuals and weak willed people. The Empire/Republic only had a few million soldiers at their greatest numbers, yet even with this very tiny numbers they were still capable of maintaining a moderate amount of control over their galaxy, yet they were also overthrown by a few thousand poorly trained and equipped freedom fighters.

This tells us that nobody in Star Wars really has the stomach for actual warfare. The civilians are so cowardly that they can be controlled with barely any threat at all, and the soldiers of the most powerful faction have never actually faced up to the horrors a truly galaxy spanning conflict against a foe who doesn't pull punches would unleash on them.

Any fight that Star Wars gets sucked into is going to be a bloodbath. The difference is that the Empire would not be able to sustain their numbers OR be able to maintain good morale. The Imperium is more than happy to throw troops into the meat grinder because they have literally infinite manpower. The casualties would absolutely horrify the Empire's soldiers as they got overwhelmed with sheer numbers, and an opposing warmachine on a scale they cannot imagine.

I've never seen anything that gives the indication that the Imperium can muster 25,000 ships over frigate size. In terms of shields and fire power, a Star Destroyer can fight over cruiser level vessels and likely even give a Battleship a great deal of trouble. Tie fighters and Tie bombers would be more than capable of destroying Warhammer vessels since they lack the anti fighter training or weapons for the most part.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
I say Star Wars primarily because of the massive speed advantage and the huge Navy advantage.

The Imperial Navy, at tis height, is supposed to have 25,000 Star Destroyers alone, not counting the thousands of smaller ships and fighters capable of carrying weapons powerful enough to damage capital ships.

By conservative estimations, the 40k Imperial Navy significantly outnumbers the Galactic Empire's navy. Not to mention the smallest 40k escort class vessel is larger than a Star Destroyer and has far more devastating weaponry.

25,000 Star Destroyers is rather pitiful, and the smaller ships are going to be even more useless.

Literally the only advantage Star Wars has is that their FTL is faster. In all other areas they are inferior. They are less numerous, carry less powerful weapons, and are less durable.


Then there is the following problem. The Star Wars universe is, to put it bluntly, full of incompetent individuals and weak willed people. The Empire/Republic only had a few million soldiers at their greatest numbers, yet even with this very tiny numbers they were still capable of maintaining a moderate amount of control over their galaxy, yet they were also overthrown by a few thousand poorly trained and equipped freedom fighters.

This tells us that nobody in Star Wars really has the stomach for actual warfare. The civilians are so cowardly that they can be controlled with barely any threat at all, and the soldiers of the most powerful faction have never actually faced up to the horrors a truly galaxy spanning conflict against a foe who doesn't pull punches would unleash on them.

Any fight that Star Wars gets sucked into is going to be a bloodbath. The difference is that the Empire would not be able to sustain their numbers OR be able to maintain good morale. The Imperium is more than happy to throw troops into the meat grinder because they have literally infinite manpower. The casualties would absolutely horrify the Empire's soldiers as they got overwhelmed with sheer numbers, and an opposing warmachine on a scale they cannot imagine.

I've never seen anything that gives the indication that the Imperium can muster 25,000 ships over frigate size. In terms of shields and fire power, a Star Destroyer can fight over cruiser level vessels and likely even give a Battleship a great deal of trouble. Tie fighters and Tie bombers would be more than capable of destroying Warhammer vessels since they lack the anti fighter training or weapons for the most part.

 Grey Templar wrote:

We are told a few key facts about the Imperium.

The Imperium is divided up into sectors, which are defined as being cubes of space roughly 200 lightyears by 200 lightyears.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

We are told a few key facts about the Imperium.

The Imperium is divided up into sectors, which are defined as being cubes of space roughly 200 lightyears by 200 lightyears.

Also when the Cacodominus died his Psychic death scream caused millions upon millions of ships to be lost in the Warp. Whilst most of them may have been civilian, cargo or transport vessels that still leaves plenty of room for vast numbers of military vessels.

Spoiler:

 dusara217 wrote:
The only way Star Wars wins is if its fans ignore the all of the 40k lore surrounding its star ships (or Darth Sideous is present at every single space battle fought between the two factions).

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not really. We don't really know anything about the Starkiller's capabilities, other than it being a "hyperspace" weapon.

There is no evidence that it can actually move, which means eventually its going to run out of stars to use as ammunition. Second, its only useful if you know of a target. As the Empire wouldn't have any knowledge of the Imperium's territory, they're not going to know of any good targets. And again its just as vulnerable as the Death Stars are to frontal attacks, even more so because its planet sized and can't move(at least till we have evidence to the contrary).

And as was already mentioned, the Imperium's super weapons are far more impressive and practical. Any Imperial fleet can destroy a planet if needed, not just one individual weapons platform.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
The only way Star Wars wins is if its fans ignore the all of the 40k lore surrounding its star ships (or Darth Sideous is present at every single space battle fought between the two factions).

If Palpatine is present in every battle, than so is Tigerious and the Grey Knights. That's not going to the end well for Palpatine.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not really. We don't really know anything about the Starkiller's capabilities, other than it being a "hyperspace" weapon.

There is no evidence that it can actually move, which means eventually its going to run out of stars to use as ammunition.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
In this scenario, I think the Imperium would have a beyond distinct advantage in head-to-head terrestrial battles. Space battles I'd gauge as roughly equal, except when the Death Stars roll in. Now, if the Empire ever did decide to builds the Starkiller Base safely in its own territory, it'd be RIP imperium, given how long it'd take to get a fleet there vs sun-powered super weapon whose lasers defy relativity and reaches its targets almost immediately.

TL;DR Imperium has better conventional warfare, Empire has the best super weapons.

Eumerin wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not really. We don't really know anything about the Starkiller's capabilities, other than it being a "hyperspace" weapon.

There is no evidence that it can actually move, which means eventually its going to run out of stars to use as ammunition.

?

It kind of HAS to move, since it extinguishes the primary of the system it's in each time it charges. It might not be capable of movement in real space, but the logic behind the thing makes it pretty clear that it has to have some form of FTL so that it can find a new star system after each charging. You don't spend the money and resources that were expended on something like the Starkiller just to make a one-shot weapon. The Empire was able to give the Death Star a hyperdrive, and it was a space station the size of a moon. I've yet to see anything that suggests they couldn't just scale up the hyperdrive technology for a planet, especially when they've created batteries that are apparently capable of storing the entirety of a star's energy. It's not as if they'll have any issues powering the hyperdrive.



On an amusing side-note to the main debate, it occurred to me that given the usual bureaucratic issues that the Imperium experiences, it would probably be over a century before more than a tenth of the Imperium's fleet was even notified that it was supposed to be mobilizing for war with the Empire.

Eumerin wrote:
You don't spend the money and resources that were expended on something like the Starkiller just to make a one-shot weapon.

Spetulhu wrote:
People that use centimeters to express the range of their guns lose every time. ;-)

But to be less silly, some IoM ships can carry out Exterminatus. Every damn Star Destroyer in the Empire's arsenal can do a Base Delta Zero, which is Exterminatus in all but name - wipe out not only all life but all requirements for life on a planet. Within a couple hours of orbital bombardment. The guns of a 40K ship are what people on some backwater SW planet use as mining drills or personal security.

 Grey Templar wrote:
What is this Base Delta Zero thing you speak of? Sounds like its nothing more than Myth and isn't canon.

Spetulhu wrote:
People that use centimeters to express the range of their guns lose every time. ;-)

But to be less silly, some IoM ships can carry out Exterminatus. Every damn Star Destroyer in the Empire's arsenal can do a Base Delta Zero, which is Exterminatus in all but name - wipe out not only all life but all requirements for life on a planet. Within a couple hours of orbital bombardment. The guns of a 40K ship are what people on some backwater SW planet use as mining drills or personal security.

Every weapon in the battleship’s arsenal was prepared and oriented down at the surface; torpedo arrays filled with warshots that could atomise whole continents in a single strike, energy cannons capable of boiling off oceans, kinetic killers that could behead mountains through the brute force of their impact. This was only the power of the ship itself; then there was the minor fleet of auxiliary craft aboard it, wings of fighters and bombers that could come screaming down into Dagonet’s atmosphere on plumes of white fire. Swift death bringers that could raze cities, burn nations." - Pg.561 Nemesis

It was on Earth, at the very heart of humanity's realm, that the fate of the galaxy was to be decided. In those last days, the sky was black with dust clouds and the earth was split by gigantic fissures. Tectonic plates shifted under the stress of the bombardment. Mountain chains shivered and seas evaporated and became salty deserts. Rains of blood and ash dripped from the dark sky. Everywhere oracles muttered evil portents and men went mad with fear.- The Siege of Earth, WD161/quote]

More vaporization of entire oceans from energy weapons, tectonic plates slipping from stresses put on them from the bombardment and fissures opening.

"Four Gothic-class cruisers--Intolerable, Invincible, and Righteous Force--awaited four parsecs from target. Each ship carried 100 Hellfire nuclear missles. Each missle 122 warheads, each with a firepower of 5 GT. If boarding action fails, nuclear missiles will turn a ship to dust."
-Space Hulk Rulebook

Torpedoes act like modern ICBM's with miniature warheads carpeting an area to pass through IOM point defense (which consists of things like mega-bolters or mini lances). All in all the payload ends up at 61,000 gigatons. For comparison the asteroid that killed most of the dinosaurs and sent Earth into an extinction event that lasted for around ten thousand years, possibly longe, was 240,000 gigatons. The payload of one of those ships is just over a fourth of that energy. Also note that the ship being described being "turned to dust" is a Space Hulk. Which are the size of small moons.

"These projectiles
vary more than the nature of the cannons themselves, ranging
from sophisticated plasma warheads which burn with the
ferocity of a small star for a fraction of a second, to implosive
devices which exert destructive gravitational forces upon
all those caught within several thousand kilometres of the
detonation."
-Rogue Trader RPG : Battlefleet Koronos, page 15

Mind you, Novacannons are well beyond the firepower of torpedoes, being in the petaton range of TNT equivalent- but their warheads vary. Some appear to be ridiculous powerful fusion warheads that create miniature stars- others use something akin to neutron star matter to cause a gravitational field that implodes objects.

The Campanile accelerates.

It lights its main realspace drives, delivering main extending thrust in a position where it should be almost coasting at correction burst only. It raises its void shielding to make itself as unstoppable as possible. It fires itself like a bullet at the planet Calth.

The screams of its crew can still be heard, but no one is listening.
Main extending thrust is a drive condition used for principal acceleration, the maximum output that takes a starship to the brink of realspace velocity as it makes the translation to the empyrean. It is a condition that is used as a starship moves away from a planet towards the nearest viable Mandeville Point, a distance that is roughly half the radius of an average star system.
There is no such long run-up here. The Campanile is already inside the orbit of Calth’s satellite. There is not enough range for it to reach anything like maximum output or velocity. Even so, it is travelling at something close to the order of forty per cent of the realspace limit as it reaches the edge of the atmosphere. It is travelling too fast for anything physical, such as an eye or a pict-corder or a visual monitor, to see it. It is only visible to scanning systems and sensors, to detectors and auspex. They shriek at its sudden, savage, shockwave approach.
Their shrieks are as futile as the unheard screams of its lost crew.
It does not hit Calth.
There is something in the way.
Pg.158 Know No Fear (E-book)

Imperial ships can move at relativistic speeds outside of their warp drives.

“Even if the ports had remained open, there was nothing to see. You were brawling with – and being fired upon by – an object that might be thousands of kilometres away in the interstellar blackness, and moving at a considerable percentage of the speed of light.” / Salvation's Reach, p.162[/quote[

More mention of relativistic ship speeds.

“For the second time in less than an hour, space tore open. The reality fissure leapt and crackled like a luminous cephalopod, lashing tendrils of warp energy into real space that twisted out, fizzled and faded. Non-baryonic light flared brilliantly through the tear, backlighting the arriving ships. Monumental silhouettes, they were shot forward into real space. Four ships, one of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at least, cutting straight towards Herodor. They did not slow down. They were moving at cruise speed. Attack Speed.” / The Saint: A Gaunt's Ghosts Omnibus, p.893 & 894

MOAR relativistic speeds.

“Several light minutes inside the orbit of Eri, the Phalanx exploded from a warp gate with violent concussion, sending sheets of exotic lightning radiating out and away into the void. Delicate sensory devices dotting the surface of the tenth planet registered the new arrival and immediately communicated reports to relay stations on Pluto and Uranus, where in turn they would be sent onward by astropath to Terra and her dominions. The return of the Imperial Fists to humanitys cradle was long overdue. By rights there should have been celebrations and great ceremony on many of the outer colonies of the solar system to mark it. Instead, the Phalanx came in with speed and ruthless purpose, not in a stately cruise around the solar systems outlying worlds.

The mammoth craft did not fly the pennants and banners associated with the triumphant arrival of a heroic vessel. Instead, the colour on her masts and the laser lamps about the Phanalxs circumfrence were lit for urgency. Patrol ships made way, no captain daring to challenge the Master of the Imperial Fists for his haste. Drives flaring like captured stars, the fortress-vessel passed in through the ragged edge of the Oort Cloud at three-quarters the speed of light, down into the place of the ecliptic, crossing the orbit of Neptune in a flicker of dazzling radiation.” / Flight of the Eisenstein, p.278

The Phalanx, a giant space station the size of a death star, is even capable of moving at relativistic speeds.

’VANDIRE’S TEETH!’ Milos Caparan cursed, triggering his starboard thrusters and jinking the two hundred tonne attack bomber out
of the path of a kilometre-wide explosive starburst which filled the view out of the cockpit’s main viewing port. All around the
lead Starhawk, the hard vacuum of space was filled with similar explosions and energy bursts. At this range - still almost one
thousand kilometres away from the target - a direct hit was almost impossible, but each energy blast emitted a burst of widespread
and high-intensity radiation lethal to both a bomber’s crew and control systems, while each exploding anti-ordnance missile
warhead or mass-reactive shell threw out a hail of shrapnel that could cover a volume of space tens of kilometres across.
Caparan activated one of the runes on his comm-link console, sending out an automated status request to the rest of his squadron.
Elsewhere, he knew, the other squadron commanders in the attack wave would be doing likewise. The cockpit’s open-channel
comm-link squawked to life as the responses came flooding back.
-Execution hour, page 16, pdf version

IOM point defense guns, create a kilometer wide fireball in space, which IIRC indicates megaton yields.

"‘Orders, my lord?’ ‘This ends,’ said Sanguinius. ‘Admiral DuCade, slave gun control on all vessels present to my word of command. Tell every shipmaster to prime their cyclonic torpedoes and megaweapon-gauge systems for full bombardment. Target Holst.’ A ripple of uncertainty passed through the human crew at the thought of such mammoth overkill. ‘All weapons? Against the hive-city?’ DuCade asked. ‘Against the planet,’ corrected the primarch. ‘Synchronize aim-points along the equator, track for geological flux. I want this world shattered.’

vAzkaellon felt a chill run through him. The hammer of the Emperor’s will was a powerful force, and in the wars of the Great Crusade it had often been regrettably necessary to punish whole worlds with ruthless intent. The Guard Commander had seen cities wiped off the map in the blink of an eye, vaporised by lance cannons and macronuclear bombs; continents seared by laser barrages; skies scorched. And while the power to kill a world ? to truly, utterly destroy it ? had always rested within the reach of the Legiones Astartes, it was not an order that Azkaellon had ever witnessed in execution. ‘All shipmasters report guns at ready.’ DuCade read back the status in a dead voice, as if she was unwilling to believe what would come next.

‘Your will, my lord.’ Azkaellon did not feel any less of the primarch’s anger at the destruction of the Paleknight, he knew that no one aboard these sister-ships felt otherwise; but the act of war that was before them still gave him pause. Finally, Sanguinius turned away from the great window and looked his old friend and comrade in the eye. In the Angel’s noble face there was at once a great distance that reminded Azkaellon of just how far his master was set above even his superior transhumanity. And within it, he saw a determination, dense as neutronium and equally unbreakable. ‘My patience with this shadow-play is at an end,’ said the primarch, and the words seemed to be for Azkaellon alone. ‘The order is given: exterminatus extremis.’

The void surrounding the planet Holst flashed crimson as energies were liberated and directed, as a surge of weapons of mass destruction hurtled from launch tubes and bore down upon the turbulent world. Energy pulses struck first, moving at the speed of light and boiling away the vapours shrouding the sky, punching into the nitrogen ice surface. Rocky under-strata that had been sealed beneath permafrost for millions of years were burned clean and exposed. The torpedo barrage came seconds after, great fusion-powered rockets tipped with lethal warheads. Each had the power to lay waste to a continent, but in this instance they were combined with force enough to spear the molten heart of a world. Whatever unreal influence had spread its cancerous instrumentality through Holst-Prime Hive spilled into the matter of the planet itself.

On some primitive level, perhaps the world had even become alive, transformed by dark power into an almost-consciousness. But it died now, perishing in revenge for the deaths of the crew of the Paleknight, for Brother Xagan and all the other legionaries. Dying for the offence its existence gave to the Angel Sanguinius. Like a tormented animal, the planet ended with a tortured scream that even the void could not silence."
Pg.154 Fear to Tread

Bombardment/Extermiantus action by Sanguinius.

"Finally, the predator ships of the war fleet parted to allow the largest of their number to face the Eisenstein. If the frigate was a fox to the wolves of the battleships, then against this craft it became no more than an insect before a colossus. There were moons that massed less than the giant. It was the clenched hand of a god carved from dark asteroid stone, a nickel-iron behemoth pocked with craters and spiked with broad towers that jutted from its surface.
At a great distance, the vessel would have resembled the head of a mace, filigreed with gold and black iron. At close range, a city’s worth of spires and gantries reached out, many of them glowing with the light of thousands of windows, others concealing nests of weapons capable of killing a continent. Ships like the Eisenstein were carried in fanged docks around the circumference of the colossus, and as it drifted closer the sheer mass of its gravity gently tugged at the frigate, altering her course. Autonomous weapons drones deployed in hornet swarms, staging around the drifting craft. As one, they turned powerful searchlights on the ruined hull and pinned the frigate to the black of the void, drenching her in blinding white beams."
Pg.484 The Flight of the Eisenstein.

More mention of continent killing weapon batteries- also the ship out-masses small moons (For an example of one of the tiniest of moons, Phobos weighs 10,659,000,000 kilotons).

"A bombardment had begun, and the people of Dagonet’s capital feared it was the end of the world.
They knew so little of the reality of things, however. High above in orbit, it was only the warship Thanato that fired on the city, and even then it was not with the vessel’s most powerful cannons. The people did not know that a fleet of craft were poised in silence around their sister ship, watchful and waiting. Had all the vessels of the Warmaster’s flotilla unleashed their killpower, then indeed those fears would have come true; the planet’s crust cracked, the continents sliced open. Perhaps those things would happen, soon enough ? but for now it was sufficient for the Thanato to hurl inert kinetic kill-rods down through the atmosphere, the sky-splitting shriek of their passage climaxed by a lowing thunder as the warshots obliterated power stations, military compounds and the vast mansion-houses of the noble clans. From the ground it seemed like wanton destruction; from orbit, it was a shrewd and surgical pattern of attack."
Pg.626 Nemesis

More mention of continent splitting firepower.

"Nothing in our inventory would even come close to doing the job, but an astropathic message to the nearest naval unit would bring a task force here within weeks, and a flotilla of battleships ought to be enough to level the continent. A couple of barrages from their lance batteries would be enough to excise this cancer, however deeply it was buried.
Of course the planet would be rendered uninhabitable for generations, but no one in their right mind would be willing to set foot here once the necron presence was known in any case, so the question was pretty moot. And if anyone were foolish enough to demur, I had no doubt that Amberley would bring the full force of the Inquisition to bear on the objectors the moment I appraised her of the situation."
-Ciaphas Cain series, Caves of Ice, page 169(pdf version)

A "couple of barrages" from a flotilla's lance batteries is enough to cut into a continent and kill a Necron Tomb, and cause an extinction event in the process that renders the planet uninhabitable for an undisclosed amount of time.

"A mighty Repulsive-class Grand Cruiser with powerful reactors and heavy armour in sloping facets of adamantine and ceramite scores of metres thick, the vessel carried a weight of armament and ordnance that could reduce a continent to ruins with a single salvo."-Black Crusade

Chaos ship capable of destroying a continent with a single salvo of fire. Also note its armor is 40-60 meters thick.

Nightbringer said:

Few men knew the awesome power of destruction the captain of a starship possessed; the power to level cities and crack continents​

Even more mention of continent cracking power.

"I WATCHED 56-IZAR die from the bridge of the Saint Scythus as we left orbit. Petals of flame, the size of continents, spread out under its milky skin."
-p.244, Eisenhorn Omnibus, pdf version is p.113​

Plumes of flames the size of continents from bombardment/exterminatus.

“Like the hand of a god it reared its fingers across themoon’s horizon. Four thousand metres away, the cityscapes of twinkling lance batteries, torpedo banksand gun turrets welcomed them with a taut, breathlesstension. Although the broadsides were capable of dismantling continents, they were far too ponderous to harm the Harvester . Cloaked by refraction, the dark eldar shippierced the Cauldron Born ’s scans, registering asnothing more than tiny space debris.”​

The mention of continent killing firepower never ends!

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

20243

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/18 01:06:36

Post by: Grey Templar

 Peregrine wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
What is this Base Delta Zero thing you speak of? Sounds like its nothing more than Myth and isn't canon.

You really don't want to start that argument, especially since nothing is canon in 40k. Exterminatus is no more canon than my version of 40k where the entire universe consists of a single space marine with no weapons or armor floating in deep space.

Its actually the opposite. Everything published by an official source in 40k is canon.

Reply by: Peregrine - click to view full reply 

63000

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/18 01:21:59

Post by: Peregrine

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its actually the opposite. Everything published by an official source in 40k is canon.

{citation needed}

GW has no canon policy at all. Your choice to limit "canon" to official sources only is nothing more than your personal preference.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Meanwhile a lances are so powerful that a Legion Fleet in a day or less blew up a planet (Nostramo), which had a solid adamantium crust, without exterminatus weapons, and blew it up "so hard", that in Soul Hunter Talos and Friends find a chunk of Nostramo over two hundred lightyears away. Meaning that the explosion was so violent chunks of Nostramo were accelerated to a significant fraction of .C that they were found in a completely different sector in a mere ten thousand years.

Meanwhile orbital bombardments are often portrayed as being comparable to a barrage of light mortar shells. And this whole "lances can blow up a planet with such overkill that its pieces are found 200 light years away" argument fails pretty badly when you remember that dedicated exterminatus weapons exist. There's no reason to bother with developing special weapons for killing all life on a planet if standard weapons are already massive overkill. In fact, creating such weapons would be suicidally stupid because any random chaos cult that gets their hands on an exterminatus torpedo can annihilate everything on a planet.

Reply by: Iron_Captain - click to view full reply 

80673

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/18 02:49:35

Post by: Iron_Captain

 Peregrine wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its actually the opposite. Everything published by an official source in 40k is canon.

{citation needed}

GW has no canon policy at all. Your choice to limit "canon" to official sources only is nothing more than your personal preference.

GW does have a canon policy. GW writers have stated that there is an internal policy on established facts which dictates what writers can and can't do. Furthermore, GW has stated that everything that gets published with a GW stamp on it is canon. That is as clear a canon policy as Star Wars has (only the movies, the Clone Wars series, and stuff published after 25 april 2015 is canon)

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Meanwhile a lances are so powerful that a Legion Fleet in a day or less blew up a planet (Nostramo), which had a solid adamantium crust, without exterminatus weapons, and blew it up "so hard", that in Soul Hunter Talos and Friends find a chunk of Nostramo over two hundred lightyears away. Meaning that the explosion was so violent chunks of Nostramo were accelerated to a significant fraction of .C that they were found in a completely different sector in a mere ten thousand years.

Meanwhile orbital bombardments are often portrayed as being comparable to a barrage of light mortar shells.

Where? Source please.

 Peregrine wrote:
And this whole "lances can blow up a planet with such overkill that its pieces are found 200 light years away" argument fails pretty badly when you remember that dedicated exterminatus weapons exist. There's no reason to bother with developing special weapons for killing all life on a planet if standard weapons are already massive overkill. In fact, creating such weapons would be suicidally stupid because any random chaos cult that gets their hands on an exterminatus torpedo can annihilate everything on a planet.

Destroying a planet with conventional weapons takes rather long. Dedicated Exterminatus weapons are much faster. Also, the bombardment of Nostramo was only as devastating as it was because the lances could get right to the planet's core through a weakness in the planet's crust.

 Peregrine wrote:
In fact, creating such weapons would be suicidally stupid because any random chaos cult that gets their hands on an exterminatus torpedo can annihilate everything on a planet.

Lol, that applies equally to present-day nukes and terrorist groups. The fact that terrorist groups can annihilate an entire city if they get their hands on a nuke does not stop us from producing thousands of them. If it doesn't stop us, why would it stop the Imperium?

Reply by: Peregrine - click to view full reply 

63000

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/18 03:11:16

Post by: Peregrine

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Furthermore, GW has stated that everything that gets published with a GW stamp on it is canon.

{citation needed}

Where? Source please.

Just to name one obvious example, IA3 has a space marine warship trying to take out a missile silo with an orbital bombardment. The bombardment does little more than make a few craters in the dirt, and they have to destroy the silo by dropping in space marines to plant melta charges on the doors. That's laughably poor firepower.

Destroying a planet with conventional weapons takes rather long. Dedicated Exterminatus weapons are much faster. Also, the bombardment of Nostramo was only as devastating as it was because the lances could get right to the planet's core through a weakness in the planet's crust.

That doesn't even make any sense. It's like saying that your 500lb bomb did a really good job of smashing an apple because there was a small weak spot in the skin. Having a weakness in the thin layer of dirt and rock on a planet should have very little, if any, impact on how hard it is to destroy the planet. And that's especially true if you're hitting it with such overwhelming firepower that the surviving fragments are thrown hundreds of light years away.

Lol, that applies equally to present-day nukes and terrorist groups. The fact that terrorist groups can annihilate an entire city if they get their hands on a nuke does not stop us from producing thousands of them. If it doesn't stop us, why would it stop the Imperium?

We make nukes in the real world because we don't have any other weapon that can fill their role. Making dedicated exterminatus weapons in 40k makes no sense if any random capital ship's lance batteries can overkill a planet with firepower that makes a death star look like a minor fireworks display. You aren't gaining any meaningful firepower advantage, you're just making it easier for the wrong people to get their hands on WMDs.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/18 04:02:15

Post by: Asherian Command

Everytime this conversation comes up the sheer size of the imperium is often just a laughable stat when someone who loves star wars will try to defend that fast movability and 'advanced' and space magic are the defining features of the universe. Forgetting that the Imperium faces Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and many other races that would cause the Star Wars Universe to fall apart at its seem.

A single tyranid hive fleet would destroy most of the Star Wars Galaxy. There is enough biological life and resources for there to be enough muchies. Even if the Star Wars universe used all of its might to get rid of a threat the threat would always linger.

If we did a caluclation just based on assumption we will always find the 40k universe to be far superior in sheer magnitude.

Peregrine is stating what has been fact before by ADB, but ever since there is a baseline that the authors do use, it is reasonable to conclude that internal affair that use as a baseline is true and reasonably to be the lore of the 40k universe. Which has and always will be the most confutation and conflict among fans.

Reply by: KommissarKiln - click to view full reply 

75903

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/18 04:17:37

Post by: KommissarKiln

In SW's defense, they did fight the Yuuzhan Vong, or however you spell it, in the EU New Republic era. They basically did fleshy drop pods and such, invade planets with bio-weaponry and vehicles, and terraformed what they conquered for harvest. Except the canon is now very shaky. And it wasn't a fraction as grimdark (except for the no-longer-canon loss of Chewbacca). But yeah, Nids would break a lot, a LOT of things if they stumbled into a different galaxy.

Reply by: Iron_Captain - click to view full reply 

80673

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/18 04:22:05

Post by: Iron_Captain

 Peregrine wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Furthermore, GW has stated that everything that gets published with a GW stamp on it is canon.

{citation needed}

Marc Gascoigne wrote:Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40k universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

 Peregrine wrote:

Where? Source please.

Just to name one obvious example, IA3 has a space marine warship trying to take out a missile silo with an orbital bombardment. The bombardment does little more than make a few craters in the dirt, and they have to destroy the silo by dropping in space marines to plant melta charges on the doors. That's laughably poor firepower.

First of all, those bunkers were built specially in order to be able to withstand orbital bombardments. Secondly, the orbital bombardment in question never actually hit the bunker. Thirdly, it makes sense ships would have lighter weapons for tactical bombardments, which were used in this case. You don't always want to take out entire continents.

 Peregrine wrote:

Destroying a planet with conventional weapons takes rather long. Dedicated Exterminatus weapons are much faster. Also, the bombardment of Nostramo was only as devastating as it was because the lances could get right to the planet's core through a weakness in the planet's crust.

That doesn't even make any sense. It's like saying that your 500lb bomb did a really good job of smashing an apple because there was a small weak spot in the skin. Having a weakness in the thin layer of dirt and rock on a planet should have very little, if any, impact on how hard it is to destroy the planet. And that's especially true if you're hitting it with such overwhelming firepower that the surviving fragments are thrown hundreds of light years away.

You just forgot this is science fiction. There is a lot of stuff in 40k that does not make sense or would be impossible in real life.

 Peregrine wrote:

Lol, that applies equally to present-day nukes and terrorist groups. The fact that terrorist groups can annihilate an entire city if they get their hands on a nuke does not stop us from producing thousands of them. If it doesn't stop us, why would it stop the Imperium?

We make nukes in the real world because we don't have any other weapon that can fill their role. Making dedicated exterminatus weapons in 40k makes no sense if any random capital ship's lance batteries can overkill a planet with firepower that makes a death star look like a minor fireworks display. You aren't gaining any meaningful firepower advantage, you're just making it easier for the wrong people to get their hands on WMDs.

Exterminatus weapons do have a role that can't be filled by Lance batteries or other weapons. Lance batteries can't destroy planets quickly, and it requires an entire fleet of ships. In situations where time is important (like when an enemy fleet is bearing down on you) or in situations when you don't have an entire fleet ready, Exterminatus weapons are the only option. They are especially useful for Inquisitors or Space Marines, since they have rarely more than a few ships available.

Reply by: dusara217 - click to view full reply 

90395

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/18 04:32:41

Post by: dusara217

 Peregrine wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its actually the opposite. Everything published by an official source in 40k is canon.

{citation needed}

GW has no canon policy at all. Your choice to limit "canon" to official sources only is nothing more than your personal preference.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Meanwhile a lances are so powerful that a Legion Fleet in a day or less blew up a planet (Nostramo), which had a solid adamantium crust, without exterminatus weapons, and blew it up "so hard", that in Soul Hunter Talos and Friends find a chunk of Nostramo over two hundred lightyears away. Meaning that the explosion was so violent chunks of Nostramo were accelerated to a significant fraction of .C that they were found in a completely different sector in a mere ten thousand years.

Meanwhile orbital bombardments are often portrayed as being comparable to a barrage of light mortar shells. And this whole "lances can blow up a planet with such overkill that its pieces are found 200 light years away" argument fails pretty badly when you remember that dedicated exterminatus weapons exist. There's no reason to bother with developing special weapons for killing all life on a planet if standard weapons are already massive overkill. In fact, creating such weapons would be suicidally stupid because any random chaos cult that gets their hands on an exterminatus torpedo can annihilate everything on a planet.

The weapons were designed to take out enemy Void craft, the fact that they're able to be used for orbital bombardment is just a plus for ships that aren't equipped for orbital bombardment. Actual Battle Barges, and similar craft, have far more accurate and effective orbital bombardment techniques. Do you have a source for anything that you just said? So far, Wyzilla is the only person in this thread with an actually tenable position regarding Void craft, as he is the only one who actually has sources.

Reply by: Hunking - click to view full reply 

100608

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/18 08:08:11

Post by: Hunking

This whole thread is absurd. The imperium would win, hands down 99 time out of 100. And these are the reasons why:

Ability to wage effective war.

Experience and generalship.

Industrial might.

Ability to reverse engineer.

Colossal initial advantage.

Ok lets get started: To understand the first concept we have to understand what these two societies are and what they stand for. The empire is nothing more than a modern day nation complete with republic origins, a senate (although it is useless at this point), trade agreements etc... The imperium however is something entirely foreign, a completely autocratic centrally controlled fasist/communist clusterf**k that has been warped and twisted over generations of war. Did i say generations? whoops i meant Millenia as in thousands of years of constant warfare.

The ability to wage effective war is the ability of a nation to commit itself to a cause, especially one fought on foreign soil. The mongles, the nazis and the the Macedonians are all excellent examples of this. In modern times this factor breaks down to two questions, How long can your economy stand being on a war footing? and how strong is your political will? Well considering that the empire is based on a generally capitalist model the first factor is a serious issue. A capitalist economy is capable of short intense bursts of war production that can be very impressive but over the long term can cripple its host. Take the British empire after WWI.

The imperium on the other hand has been at war for thousands of years, its clearly capable of going on forever.

Another issue with societies such as the empire is that its capable of only limited unpopular action. What does this mean? take America in the Vietnam war, clearly America could have won if it gave everything it got, but its people decided the it simply wasn't worth the cost. The empire is crumbling from rebels even without the added stress of committing your people to a foreign war against an unrelenting opponent.

The Imperium however frequently goes on vast crusades far from friendly stars, clearly its capable of maintaining an iron hard will even in the direst of times.

Second point(swear it shorter than the first)

The empire just got out of a civil war in which its armies and navies got a lot of experience right? nope all the jedi who were functioning as generals were killed, the clones replaced and any other minor war since (huts) has ben just that: minor. We can see this from the absolutely awful tactical decisions the empire makes on a constant basis: endor both in the sky and on the ground, hoth( Im sorry, those plains were flat ice no need for walkers, send in some tanks you morons.). Even the death star as a strategic weapon is moronic, but more on that later.

Now lets look at the Imperium: did I mention the Millenia of constant war? I did? well how about the fact that many generals and admirals live for hundereds of years? Oh and do these generals fight like the same enemy over and over again? no they are constantly pitted again new and horrible foes that they have to adapt to. An imperil admiral would read and react to a situation so much faster than a moff the empire's forces would be dust long before the leadership even understood what was happening. Does anyone honestly think that in the chaos of two totally alien forces engaging in massive interstellar warfare that the empire would be the ones to grasp the situation before the guys that have been doing just that for centuries?

I shouldn't have to stress the value of leadership; take alexander, Ghengis Khan, Julius Caesar Hannibal, etc/. All these people have triumphed over poor odds thanks to tactical brilliance.

Third point: I don't know where but somewhere someone said the Empire had more industry. It doesn't but i'll tell you what it does have: showmanship.
Ah the death star, the most useless hunk of space junk ever made. Aside from the fact that a hundred ton asteroid directed by chemical rockets would do the exact same job, the whole thing is mostly hollow (giant pits everywhere anyone?). This is because the empire likes to impress, and the death star is certainly that, but don't think for a second that makes the empire an industrial force. After all the ancient Egyptians made the pyramids and those are still the biggest buildings we've ever made.

No the death star is in many ways like storm trooper armour, impressive and intimidation, but not very useful. This actually follows the whole incompetent money grubbing ethos of the empire. There like a puffer fish, their bark is far bigger than their bite. Conceivably the Imperium could make a death star. But why? they have extermitus ships, all a death star is is a big slow target. We never see massive industrial plants in starwars. And remember space is full of iron and nickel, a big metal globe isn't exactly a leap of engineering. You see the imperium fights real enemies all the time. The empire usually fights internal ones, their whole war machine is different. Its like the soviets flying the same bomber squadron over the sky over and over again.To anyone with a sense for history or politics its clear that the empire is incompetent and exaggerated. I mean they were overwhelmed by rebels in a pitched battle, REBELS! if you understood history you'd know that that only ever happens when the military in charge is absolutely useless.

As for the imperial industry, well they have hundreds of forge worlds, and are capable of floating a navy an order of magnitude larger than the empire's, but more on that latter.

This ones a bit of a minor point but its a specific counter the one one thing that the empire has going for it: faster strategic speed. The warp drive is undoubtable inferior to hyperspace. But how long would it take for the imperium to copy the tech? Remember the imperium spends most of its tech time reverse engineering stuff from the dark age, they have a lot of experience. Also hyperspace drives are way more common than a geller field, i mean a god damn X wing can have one. Are you telling me the Imperium cant capture a single hyperspace drive? I mean its clearly better, id think the Imperium would simply go bananas trying to copy that piece of sweat tech.

Finally and this is the kicker: numbers. Shear numbers.

I think general consensus is that empire ships are slightly better than Imperium. Fine. I personally disagree but fine. In the end it doesn't matter one bit. Lets crunch number shall we? The empire (according to wookiepedia) had 25000 destroyers at its peak. And during the clone wars there was around 5 million guys (again wookiepedia) in the clone army. (im using clones because lets face it, storm troopers are hot garbage in plastic.)

The imperium has, i quote: untold billion of guardsmen equipped with vastly superior weapons. As for the navy well according to the rule book there are between 50-75 capital ships per sector in the Imperium, there are around 10000 sectors, do the math. Were talking about a navy an order of magnitude larger than the empire's. A population an order of magnitude bigger an industrial capacity a order of magnitude bigger. a military war machine an order of magnitude bigger.

The empire hasn't a snowflakes chance in hell if the Imperium could devote its entire military might against it. And I refuse to consider any other scenario, "oh but what about the Imperium being so tied down with all its enemies?" some dweeb says, Fine... sure i mean i would beat mike tyson if twenty people would hold him down for me. A hero is only as great as his enemy, comparing the empire's to the impeiums? no contest.

Reply by: Mudrat - click to view full reply 

98132

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/18 22:06:33

Post by: Mudrat

Alright then, I think we've established that the Imperium beats the Empire. In fact their victory just got even easier with Disney retconning the EU and most of the super weapons.

What I'm interested in now is how does the Empire match up against the other 40k races? Generally, I'm of the opinion they don't do well.

Tyranids- I shouldn't need to explain this one. The Empire might keep their mobility, but in any battle the nids have far too many numbers, and they'll just get more numerous. On the Hilarious side, if they attacked the empire we'd actually get to see the stormtroopers hit something (too many nids for them not too).

Necrons- Empire is horribly beaten. Necron ground forces are incredibly superior, their fleet is established as generally being better than the Imperiums, and if they feel the need they can build they own death star thingy. Also, Necrons have all their fancy tech and no force sensitivity whatsoever.

Eldar- The Empire could actually win a pitched fight, but catching the Eldar is going to be the trick here. I honestly have no idea what the Eldar would want with the Empire though, so they'd probably just ignore them.

Dark Eldar- Yeah. The Star wars universe is in for one awfully unpleasant time. In fact, the sheer vulnerability of SW may well cause the dark Eldar to group up just to do their thing on an galactic scale.

Ork- The Empire stands a fighting chance in space, but Orks win on the ground. Add their numbers, the spores (and the face that no one in Star Wars knows what to do about them) and that their is an enitre galaxy (allowing all the Ork bosses to do their own thing without bumping into each other). I would say this one either ends with Ork victory or the Empire consistently fighting Orks just about everywhere.

Chaos- Daemons. Star Wars has no knowledge of the daemons (an even then, we know the best anti-daemon weapons a blades/fire. star wars is generally all various lasers). As soon as Chaos bothers to sneeze in the Empires direction, everyone goes mad as warp storms appear everywhere. Chaos wins, everyone else dies, the end.

Tau- this is the interesting one. The Tau have far superior infantry, more elite specialized/auxiliary units (battle-suits, kroot etc.), so I think we can chalk them as winning any ground battles. However, I have no knowledge about Tau battleships, beyond the fact that they use a method of warp travel considered slow even by the Imperium, so Empire gets a huge maneuverability bonus. Still I can't call a verdict without knowing the Tau's Naval Capabilities. Also, it would be interesting to see how the Tau/Empire react to one another, either diplomatically or violently.

I'm more than happy to discuss my opinions if any of you think these matchups would turn out differently

Reply by: SagesStone - click to view full reply 

14070

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 02:58:52

Post by: SagesStone

 Sir Arun wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
This has been done to death in other threads. Not sure why you want to dredge it up yet again. Do some searching and you'll find a mix of thoughtful analysis and rampant fanboyism.

I am curious why you want to delete the iconic IOM troop type, the one that defines the 40k genre, from your scenario.

Because bringing in Astartes would completely tip the scales in favor of IoM, and I'm pretty sure past threads had included them. Lorewise an unarmed Astartes can take on 100 guardsmen. A fully armed squad can make short work of anyone, even Jedi. If you remember the order 66 scene in Episode III, there was this one Jedi who started getting shot at by Stormtroopers and he could only use his light sabre to deflect the first couple of shots before they went past him and killed him, so I doubt they could deflect bolter rounds as easily. The only time Jedi in the movies had an easy time deflecting shots was against droids (Episode II) but even then they took a lot of casualties. The presence of shielded destroyer droids could easily force a Jedi even the likes of Obi-Wan into retreat, so it doesnt take much concentrated firepower to bring them down.

Then IoM wins cause you know there would 100% be marines in any sort of large scale conflict like that. If they have the death stars those are like world engines sort of, so you could easily expect a few companies there.

Thread over.

Reply by: Hunking - click to view full reply 

100608

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 05:42:28

Post by: Hunking

I would think the empire would beat the Tau because the Tau have no clearly defined navy (since they simply lack the time and industrial might to produce one). Without the ability to move supplies the empire would be able to blockade them to death.

As for the orks, well that's tricky. The orks are rarely organized long enough to mount a successful conquest beyond a string of worlds. This means the orks are most certainly incapable of wiping the empire out in one blow. Which is significant when you consider that the empire advances technologically where the orks do not. This means that unless a 40k force has the ability to wipe them out in a century or two, the empire will adapt and overcome.

Eldar, The eldar have the best tech in the game (aside from possibly the necrons; who the eldar mainly fight with wraith bone, a weapon specifically designed to kill necrons.). This one comes down to numbers in my opinion... how may craft worlds attack? I'd say that any more than a hundred would shred the empire.

Reply by: Nerak - click to view full reply 

99813

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 07:27:52

Post by: Nerak

Mudrat wrote:
Alright then, I think we've established that the Imperium beats the Empire. In fact their victory just got even easier with Disney retconning the EU and most of the super weapons.

What I'm interested in now is how does the Empire match up against the other 40k races? Generally, I'm of the opinion they don't do well.

Tyranids- I shouldn't need to explain this one. The Empire might keep their mobility, but in any battle the nids have far too many numbers, and they'll just get more numerous. On the Hilarious side, if they attacked the empire we'd actually get to see the stormtroopers hit something (too many nids for them not too).

Necrons- Empire is horribly beaten. Necron ground forces are incredibly superior, their fleet is established as generally being better than the Imperiums, and if they feel the need they can build they own death star thingy. Also, Necrons have all their fancy tech and no force sensitivity whatsoever.

Eldar- The Empire could actually win a pitched fight, but catching the Eldar is going to be the trick here. I honestly have no idea what the Eldar would want with the Empire though, so they'd probably just ignore them.

Dark Eldar- Yeah. The Star wars universe is in for one awfully unpleasant time. In fact, the sheer vulnerability of SW may well cause the dark Eldar to group up just to do their thing on an galactic scale.

Ork- The Empire stands a fighting chance in space, but Orks win on the ground. Add their numbers, the spores (and the face that no one in Star Wars knows what to do about them) and that their is an enitre galaxy (allowing all the Ork bosses to do their own thing without bumping into each other). I would say this one either ends with Ork victory or the Empire consistently fighting Orks just about everywhere.

Chaos- Daemons. Star Wars has no knowledge of the daemons (an even then, we know the best anti-daemon weapons a blades/fire. star wars is generally all various lasers). As soon as Chaos bothers to sneeze in the Empires direction, everyone goes mad as warp storms appear everywhere. Chaos wins, everyone else dies, the end.

Tau- this is the interesting one. The Tau have far superior infantry, more elite specialized/auxiliary units (battle-suits, kroot etc.), so I think we can chalk them as winning any ground battles. However, I have no knowledge about Tau battleships, beyond the fact that they use a method of warp travel considered slow even by the Imperium, so Empire gets a huge maneuverability bonus. Still I can't call a verdict without knowing the Tau's Naval Capabilities. Also, it would be interesting to see how the Tau/Empire react to one another, either diplomatically or violently.

I'm more than happy to discuss my opinions if any of you think these matchups would turn out differently

Exalted.

I stopped reading http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/671762.page halfway through but I was under the impression that the empire wins in space while IoM wins on the ground. In the end I don't really think that would matter. Assuming space logistics (warp travel) isn't a factor then the sheer scale of the IoM warmachine is such that they'll overwhelm most other sci-fi universes militaries. Star wars included.

I can see tau being the only ones to straight up lose because they're the only ones who doesn't have an all war based society. Except for the minor races of course (Kroot, Hrud etc).

Reply by: Wyzilla - click to view full reply 

78353

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 07:37:02

Post by: Wyzilla

Tau wouldn't get wiped out immediately- when it comes to ton-to-ton firepower they still exceed the Galactic Empire like the Imperium. But they're restricted to an area small than Hutt Space, and would eventually just get drowned in bodies and numbers- especially when the Galactic Empire doesn't have any existential threats, and an expansionist empire would justify Palpatine's reign.

Reply by: endlesswaltz123 - click to view full reply 

48188

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 07:50:55

Post by: endlesswaltz123

Actually, the Empire against Nids isn't as one sided as you think if space is taken into account.

All the empire would need to know is the right targets to aim at (the one housing the nord queen), in which case they could just ship the deathstar/star killer base in every time that would be required, then let the fleet clean up as the other nid ships start turning on each other and become disjointed.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 13:48:18

Post by: Asherian Command

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Actually, the Empire against Nids isn't as one sided as you think if space is taken into account.

All the empire would need to know is the right targets to aim at (the one housing the nord queen), in which case they could just ship the deathstar/star killer base in every time that would be required, then let the fleet clean up as the other nid ships start turning on each other and become disjointed.

Kind of hard to do that when its swarms of them. The Tyranid infestation would spread quickly and fast and would be hard to see coming.

Even if the empire kills off a nord queen. There is always another one.

The problem with the tyranids is that they are survivalists. ITs like the flood from halo a single parasite could destroy a planet.

In the same manner the tyranid hive swarms will just devistate the deathstar and its defenses with something called. Tyranid Spores, and Genestealers.

A single person who has the genestealer strain could ruin everything, sometimes they don't even know they have it till it is faaarrrr tooo late. By then the parasite would take hold and the call of the swarm Hive Mind will cause the person to carry it out in secret.

Its happened on countless human worlds in 40k. Even the Tau, Orks have troubles against the nids.

Reply by: endlesswaltz123 - click to view full reply 

48188

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 17:38:54

Post by: endlesswaltz123

 Asherian Command wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Actually, the Empire against Nids isn't as one sided as you think if space is taken into account.

All the empire would need to know is the right targets to aim at (the one housing the nord queen), in which case they could just ship the deathstar/star killer base in every time that would be required, then let the fleet clean up as the other nid ships start turning on each other and become disjointed.

Kind of hard to do that when its swarms of them. The Tyranid infestation would spread quickly and fast and would be hard to see coming.

Even if the empire kills off a nord queen. There is always another one.

The problem with the tyranids is that they are survivalists. ITs like the flood from halo a single parasite could destroy a planet.

In the same manner the tyranid hive swarms will just devistate the deathstar and its defenses with something called. Tyranid Spores, and Genestealers.

A single person who has the genestealer strain could ruin everything, sometimes they don't even know they have it till it is faaarrrr tooo late. By then the parasite would take hold and the call of the swarm Hive Mind will cause the person to carry it out in secret.

Its happened on countless human worlds in 40k. Even the Tau, Orks have troubles against the nids.

The death star can theoretically drop in, fire and leave though, advantage of a mobile super weapon.

Also, no, the fleets encountered tend to have only one nord queen within them, and as soon as that is taken out, there is a period of time where they are generally quite easy to take out before another can be generated.

Firing range as well, tyrannid spores would have to be within orbit range of the death star, and since it can travel, it shouldn't get into that problem.

I'll give you gene stealers, but if the death star is retreating far enough away from the general area the nids are coming from, it wouldn't be such an issue. Seriously, I'll give a space battle to the empire over nids any day, the other advantage of the death star being, it can destroy the planets in the kids path, starving them of biomass by the time they come to engage, weakening the kids significantly.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 17:49:59

Post by: Asherian Command

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Actually, the Empire against Nids isn't as one sided as you think if space is taken into account.

All the empire would need to know is the right targets to aim at (the one housing the nord queen), in which case they could just ship the deathstar/star killer base in every time that would be required, then let the fleet clean up as the other nid ships start turning on each other and become disjointed.

Kind of hard to do that when its swarms of them. The Tyranid infestation would spread quickly and fast and would be hard to see coming.

Even if the empire kills off a nord queen. There is always another one.

The problem with the tyranids is that they are survivalists. ITs like the flood from halo a single parasite could destroy a planet.

In the same manner the tyranid hive swarms will just devistate the deathstar and its defenses with something called. Tyranid Spores, and Genestealers.

A single person who has the genestealer strain could ruin everything, sometimes they don't even know they have it till it is faaarrrr tooo late. By then the parasite would take hold and the call of the swarm Hive Mind will cause the person to carry it out in secret.

Its happened on countless human worlds in 40k. Even the Tau, Orks have troubles against the nids.

The death star can theoretically drop in, fire and leave though, advantage of a mobile super weapon.

Also, no, the fleets encountered tend to have only one nord queen within them, and as soon as that is taken out, there is a period of time where they are generally quite easy to take out before another can be generated.

Firing range as well, tyrannid spores would have to be within orbit range of the death star, and since it can travel, it shouldn't get into that problem.

I'll give you gene stealers, but if the death star is retreating far enough away from the general area the nids are coming from, it wouldn't be such an issue. Seriously, I'll give a space battle to the empire over nids any day, the other advantage of the death star being, it can destroy the planets in the kids path, starving them of biomass by the time they come to engage, weakening the kids significantly.

Does the deathstar even move?

I mean you are making it out that the tyranids have no tactics and are just dumb beasts.

Don't confuse orks with tyranids or vice versa.

Tyranids are quite intelligent and have been known to outsmart even imperial admirals and generals.

Also finding a nord queen is going to be quite hard, as the space battles are where most of the problems will arise.

Also interesting fact:

Upon the extinction of the class of xeno-form known as a Norn Queen, a psycho-temporal event approaching level Gamma 12 is generated – a level sufficient to temporarily obscure the light of the Astronomican. It is believed that this phenomenon represents the 'death knell' of said xeno-form, and that its purpose is to trigger those bio-vessels that intercept the signal to calve. This has been dubbed the 'Hydra effect', for, upon the death of one Norn Queen, a number of others are calved and thus the advance of the Tyranids is merely slowed, not stalled.

I mean yeah you could blow it up with a deathstar.

But there is only 1 deathstar, and cannot in anyway respond to EVERY single occurence.

Reply by: endlesswaltz123 - click to view full reply 

48188

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 20:53:47

Post by: endlesswaltz123

The deathstar has to move to attack Yavin 4, it's a bit of a useless super weapon if it can't move to acquire new targets.

I'm not assuming nids are stupid, they aren't as fast as hyper space though, and they can't jump in and out of the warp at a whim like a hyperspace capable vessel.

Lastly, that's what is assumed to happen, it doesn't mean it does happen. Another assumption you are making is that there is only EVER one death star, I see no reason to why more cannot be created if the need required it?

And well, if one death star won't do the job, star killer base will, as that can nuke all the big nasties in a nid fleet in one shot.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 21:37:27

Post by: Asherian Command

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The deathstar has to move to attack Yavin 4, it's a bit of a useless super weapon if it can't move to acquire new targets.

I'm not assuming nids are stupid, they aren't as fast as hyper space though, and they can't jump in and out of the warp at a whim like a hyperspace capable vessel.

Lastly, that's what is assumed to happen, it doesn't mean it does happen. Another assumption you are making is that there is only EVER one death star, I see no reason to why more cannot be created if the need required it?

And well, if one death star won't do the job, star killer base will, as that can nuke all the big nasties in a nid fleet in one shot.

They barely could afford it. There were only ever two for a great reason IE it is expensive to build those things. The nids don't care about expense.

The imperium has millions of worlds. Where the Empire barely has any thing at the sheer scale the imperium does.

The Empire has resources that are fairly limited, and even then a single deathstar or a dozen of them would only deplete their resources to the point of hilarity.

There aren't enough resources, manpower, commanders, and people to build the deathstars in the star wars universe.

Reply by: endlesswaltz123 - click to view full reply 

48188

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 22:17:09

Post by: endlesswaltz123

It takes 100 years to build an imperial cruiser in 40k.

It takes 3 years to build a death star, and 30 years to build star killer base (if it indeed took all that time).

Resources suggest that there are enough to build such weapons in the SW universe, so there's no reason whilst more couldn't be built.

And within the imperium, the resources to build such weapons could be endless.

Reply by: Chapter Master Angelos - click to view full reply 

61097

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 22:32:21

Post by: Chapter Master Angelos

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
It takes 100 years to build an imperial cruiser in 40k.

It takes 3 years to build a death star, and 30 years to build star killer base (if it indeed took all that time).

Resources suggest that there are enough to build such weapons in the SW universe, so there's no reason whilst more couldn't be built.

And within the imperium, the resources to build such weapons could be endless.

Uhm.. three years to build the Death Star? Where did you get that. Based just on the fact that it was being constructed at the end of Revenge of the Sith but wasn't put into full operational use until ANH.. kinda negates that argument mate.

And I've seen no source anywhere that says it takes 100 years to build an Imperial Cruiser.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 22:39:38

Post by: Asherian Command

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
It takes 100 years to build an imperial cruiser in 40k.

It takes 3 years to build a death star, and 30 years to build star killer base (if it indeed took all that time).

Resources suggest that there are enough to build such weapons in the SW universe, so there's no reason whilst more couldn't be built.

And within the imperium, the resources to build such weapons could be endless.

Uhm.. three years to build the Death Star? Where did you get that. Based just on the fact that it was being constructed at the end of Revenge of the Sith but wasn't put into full operational use until ANH.. kinda negates that argument mate.

And I've seen no source anywhere that says it takes 100 years to build an Imperial Cruiser.

Well that is a reference to an FFG lore discussion which is noncanon compared to the actual lore where it states that a light cruiser could take weeks or months to build on an imperial hive world.

Battleships don't take as long as it would be ridiclious if it would take more than a hundred years. Otherwise the imperial navy would of gone extinct a long time ago. Plus it didn't say "Only one at a time"

It is probably in the dozens or even hundreds.

The only reason why they take so long is finding people to pilot them and maintain them. Which takes time and resources. The imperium has alot of infantry, but its voidmen are alot harder to come by than the average guardsmen.

That and also most imperial ships are built to last, and very few things can actually destroy an imperial naval batttleship or a cruiser. most often lighter craft is destroyed but they are fairly easy to replace compared a 8km ship. Which takes a lot of resources and management.

The Imperial Navy is not to be trifled with the only time it has had trouble was during the gothic war.

Reply by: Iron_Captain - click to view full reply 

80673

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 22:55:24

Post by: Iron_Captain

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
It takes 100 years to build an imperial cruiser in 40k.

It takes 3 years to build a death star, and 30 years to build star killer base (if it indeed took all that time).

That is not true. Imperial Cruisers are designed to be able to be built very quickly and in huge numbers. They can even be built without dedicated spaceship building industry. For example the cruiser Lord Daros was built on a feral world in a period of just 11 years.
It always surprises me how little many people know about the Imperial Navy and space warfare in 40k. Does no one ever bother to read through all of the Battlefleet Gothic stuff?

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 23:01:27

Post by: Asherian Command

 Iron_Captain wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
It takes 100 years to build an imperial cruiser in 40k.

It takes 3 years to build a death star, and 30 years to build star killer base (if it indeed took all that time).

That is not true. Imperial Cruisers are designed to be able to be built very quickly and in huge numbers. They can even be built without dedicated spaceship building industry. For example the cruiser Lord Daros was built on a feral world in a period of just 11 years.
It always surprises me how little many people know about the Imperial Navy and space warfare in 40k. Does no one ever bother to read through all of the Battlefleet Gothic stuff?

Very few have.

I have read parts of it, but I have never owned a copy of it.

I know enough to get by and to say "Nova Cannons are awesome."

Reply by: dusara217 - click to view full reply 

90395

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 23:13:38

Post by: dusara217

 Iron_Captain wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
It takes 100 years to build an imperial cruiser in 40k.

It takes 3 years to build a death star, and 30 years to build star killer base (if it indeed took all that time).

That is not true. Imperial Cruisers are designed to be able to be built very quickly and in huge numbers. They can even be built without dedicated spaceship building industry. For example the cruiser Lord Daros was built on a feral world in a period of just 11 years.
It always surprises me how little many people know about the Imperial Navy and space warfare in 40k. Does no one ever bother to read through all of the Battlefleet Gothic stuff?

People always think that because they have this wierd mindset of the Imperium of Man = stereotypical view of Christianity during the Dark Ages.

Reply by: keezus - click to view full reply 

1795

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/19 23:33:37

Post by: keezus

I think that most posters here are too hung up on straight up fights and are ignoring the realities of theatre vs theatre conflicts. Both sides are capable of exterminatus level attacks, and both sides have substantive industrial capacity. However, when looking at the entire galactic theatre: Since the galaxy is made up of mostly empty space (which needs to be mapped and traversed) IoM vs the Empire comes down to two things.

Response and deployment speed.
Information gathering / Recon of enemy space.

IMHO, the Empire has advantages in all of the above. The IoM's standard doctrine is to send out an Explorator fleet into unknown areas and return in force should it encounter any concerted resistance. Belligerent first contact would go either one of two ways:

1. The Empire's patrol group successfully runs away and the Empire musters a substantive response resulting in the destruction of the Explorator Fleet.
2. They would be destroyed, and the Empire would DEFINITELY muster the first response (due to faster muster time, despite having less overall fleet strength), resulting the destruction of the Explorator Fleet while it is picking over the wreckage of the patrol ships.

Intelligence gathered from First Contact would inform all subsequent engagements. The galaxy is vast and each side has many uninhabited and unpatrolled areas, so the first side to map the enemy territory gets a tremendous advantage as it is clear in both the lore for Star Wars and 40k that it is impossible for each side to guard all their territory at the same time. IMHO, Holy Terra could be easily destroyed once located by dropping a suitably large object, (like a moon with hyperdrives attached) out of hyperspace in the atmosphere (we're talking in the 10^18 Terraton Range, which is substantively more powerful than any documented 40k weapon). Moons are plentiful, and I'm sure they can make a relativistic moon missile in a fraction of the time needed to build a Death Star) Sure the Empire has less ship-to-ship firepower (the magnitude that it is less is arguable, due to how inconsistent GW canon is) and possibly less industrial capacity... but it has ENOUGH.

IoM can not put up any resistance once the astronomicon is gone, and as its worlds are dedicated farming/forge/fortress/hive worlds, without the supply routes and astropath communications, many of its strategically important worlds will basically starve.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 00:00:45

Post by: Asherian Command

 dusara217 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
It takes 100 years to build an imperial cruiser in 40k.

It takes 3 years to build a death star, and 30 years to build star killer base (if it indeed took all that time).

That is not true. Imperial Cruisers are designed to be able to be built very quickly and in huge numbers. They can even be built without dedicated spaceship building industry. For example the cruiser Lord Daros was built on a feral world in a period of just 11 years.
It always surprises me how little many people know about the Imperial Navy and space warfare in 40k. Does no one ever bother to read through all of the Battlefleet Gothic stuff?

People always think that because they have this wierd mindset of the Imperium of Man = stereotypical view of Christianity during the Dark Ages.

My god that by itself pisses me off when ever someone talks about crusades and has no idea what actually happened during the crusades. I always hear the christians during the dark ages were terrible. And then I point them to every other religious group.

The imperium of Man is quick assimilate new technology, but due to its sheer size its harder to see that happen. I mean look at the united states it takes years for it to get all of its states up to date technology.

Reply by: Wyzilla - click to view full reply 

78353

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 02:17:26

Post by: Wyzilla

 keezus wrote:
I think that most posters here are too hung up on straight up fights and are ignoring the realities of theatre vs theatre conflicts. Both sides are capable of exterminatus level attacks, and both sides have substantive industrial capacity. However, when looking at the entire galactic theatre: Since the galaxy is made up of mostly empty space (which needs to be mapped and traversed) IoM vs the Empire comes down to two things.

Response and deployment speed.
Information gathering / Recon of enemy space.

IMHO, the Empire has advantages in all of the above. The IoM's standard doctrine is to send out an Explorator fleet into unknown areas and return in force should it encounter any concerted resistance. Belligerent first contact would go either one of two ways:

1. The Empire's patrol group successfully runs away and the Empire musters a substantive response resulting in the destruction of the Explorator Fleet.
2. They would be destroyed, and the Empire would DEFINITELY muster the first response (due to faster muster time, despite having less overall fleet strength), resulting the destruction of the Explorator Fleet while it is picking over the wreckage of the patrol ships.

Intelligence gathered from First Contact would inform all subsequent engagements. The galaxy is vast and each side has many uninhabited and unpatrolled areas, so the first side to map the enemy territory gets a tremendous advantage as it is clear in both the lore for Star Wars and 40k that it is impossible for each side to guard all their territory at the same time. IMHO, Holy Terra could be easily destroyed once located by dropping a suitably large object, (like a moon with hyperdrives attached) out of hyperspace in the atmosphere (we're talking in the 10^18 Terraton Range, which is substantively more powerful than any documented 40k weapon). Moons are plentiful, and I'm sure they can make a relativistic moon missile in a fraction of the time needed to build a Death Star) Sure the Empire has less ship-to-ship firepower (the magnitude that it is less is arguable, due to how inconsistent GW canon is) and possibly less industrial capacity... but it has ENOUGH.

IoM can not put up any resistance once the astronomicon is gone, and as its worlds are dedicated farming/forge/fortress/hive worlds, without the supply routes and astropath communications, many of its strategically important worlds will basically starve.

And then you've also got the stupidity of people thinking factions will act completely out of character. The Galactic Empire will never use something like a hyperdrive missile by strapping a hyperdrive onto an asteroid- you're instilling competency to a faction that has none. If the Empire both knew how to do so and were capable, the Rebellion would have ended in a single night as a barrage of asteroids struck every planet known to be sympathetic to the Rebellion, there would be no need for a Death Star or Tarkin Doctrine. But of course if you can provide a list of all the times the Galactic Empire used this tactic, and the planets it has destroyed, that would be wonderful.

Oh yeah, and Hyperspace doesn't preserve velocity. An object coming out of hyperspace is not in fact moving at lightspeed, or anywhere near it. Not to mention that an object striking something at lightspeed wouldn't actually do anything- because it would be mass-less.

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

20243

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 05:40:21

Post by: Grey Templar

If turning moons into ships was practical, both the Imperium and Empire would have done so a long time ago.

Using asteroids as guided bombs is actually woefully inefficient. And if you have the technology to do this reliably than you also probably have technology letting you build weapons which are just as good as an asteroid impact, but reusable and much less clunky to use.

Reply by: dusara217 - click to view full reply 

90395

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 06:38:37

Post by: dusara217

 Grey Templar wrote:
If turning moons into ships was practical, both the Imperium and Empire would have done so a long time ago.

Using asteroids as guided bombs is actually woefully inefficient. And if you have the technology to do this reliably than you also probably have technology letting you build weapons which are just as good as an asteroid impact, but reusable and much less clunky to use.

Sounds like something that Orks would do

Reply by: Nerak - click to view full reply 

99813

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 09:01:33

Post by: Nerak

A reason to post this



~GWs actual response to why you shouldn't just drop a moon on your enemies~

Reply by: Iron_Captain - click to view full reply 

80673

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 09:29:38

Post by: Iron_Captain

 dusara217 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If turning moons into ships was practical, both the Imperium and Empire would have done so a long time ago.

Using asteroids as guided bombs is actually woefully inefficient. And if you have the technology to do this reliably than you also probably have technology letting you build weapons which are just as good as an asteroid impact, but reusable and much less clunky to use.

Sounds like something that Orks would do

It is something they do. They call it a "Rok"
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rok

Reply by: TheWanderer - click to view full reply 

100255

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 11:20:29

Post by: TheWanderer

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If turning moons into ships was practical, both the Imperium and Empire would have done so a long time ago.

Using asteroids as guided bombs is actually woefully inefficient. And if you have the technology to do this reliably than you also probably have technology letting you build weapons which are just as good as an asteroid impact, but reusable and much less clunky to use.

Sounds like something that Orks would do

It is something they do. They call it a "Rok"
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rok

The IOM of man does it!! Caliban...

The Dark Angels fly around in whats left of their planet for goodness sake!

IOM is just so much bigger numbers wise its not a contest. The Empire is like some little rebellion in a back water of the Imperium in terms of scale.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 13:02:29

Post by: Asherian Command

 Grey Templar wrote:
If turning moons into ships was practical, both the Imperium and Empire would have done so a long time ago.

Using asteroids as guided bombs is actually woefully inefficient. And if you have the technology to do this reliably than you also probably have technology letting you build weapons which are just as good as an asteroid impact, but reusable and much less clunky to use.

Plus the odds of it getting there is extremely hard, Instead of just sending in a contingent of ships to blast the fethers up is far more efficient and is more cost efficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheWanderer wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If turning moons into ships was practical, both the Imperium and Empire would have done so a long time ago.

Using asteroids as guided bombs is actually woefully inefficient. And if you have the technology to do this reliably than you also probably have technology letting you build weapons which are just as good as an asteroid impact, but reusable and much less clunky to use.

Sounds like something that Orks would do

It is something they do. They call it a "Rok"
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rok

The IOM of man does it!! Caliban...

The Dark Angels fly around in whats left of their planet for goodness sake!

IOM is just so much bigger numbers wise its not a contest. The Empire is like some little rebellion in a back water of the Imperium in terms of scale.

Caliban also moves extremely slowly, hence why it has so many defenses to compensate for its low speeds.

Its hardly as efficient as a star fort, or a star base. Which excel and can vary in sizes from a fourteen times the size of a battleship to a small moon. Which can cause gravitational pulls because of how large they are.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ramilles_Class_Star-fort

The Ramilles class Star-fort is of ancient construction, made from STC data, it has been in use since the Great Crusade and still forms a vital lynch pin in Imperial strategy.[2]

The Ramilles is so large that it does not have conventional drives, and has to be towed through the warp by other vessels to relocate it. Each quadrant of the fort has masses of powerful weapons batteries and lances, and the central basilica houses many torpedo silos providing powerful salvoes to provide extra support to each quadrant.

There are four pairs of launch bays, one for each quadrant. They facilitate docking points to anything up to cruiser size to resupply and repair, even amidst the heat of battle; as Ramilles tend to only be deployed in massive engagements. So there is enough fire-power from the fort and other ships to ensure the repair crews are not disturbed during repair work. Only well known and successful admirals, or Inquisitors, are entrusted with a Ramilles, as they can take centuries to build.

It was designed by the hitherto unknown Artisan Magos Lian Ramillies from STC materials captured in the purgation of the 'Stone World' Ulthanx. Star Forts can be relocated through the Warp in a projected Gellar Field 'bubble', and though this is an extremely dangerous operation, each Star Fort thanks to their heavy armour, supply and repair facilities, and formidable defensive weaponry can strongly increase the operational capacity of Imperial fleets .[2]

It would be far more effective to convert a Ramilles Class to have at least sublight engines. But it might be easier to drag it with other ships.

Reply by: keezus - click to view full reply 

1795

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 13:15:59

Post by: keezus

 Grey Templar wrote:
If turning moons into ships was practical, both the Imperium and Empire would have done so a long time ago.

The Empire doesn't do it because its not reusable and a non-reusable planet buster isn't much of a terror weapon. The Imperium doesn't do it because destroying entire planets with a one-use weapon isn't an efficient use of their resources. In this case, if either side wanted to destroy a single planet with a non-interceptable relativistic munition, I can think of little else that would create that level of destruction for as little cost (time and money).

 Grey Templar wrote:
Using asteroids as guided bombs is actually woefully inefficient.

How is it inefficient? It only needs to destroy one thing. Who cares if it is not reusable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if you have the technology to do this reliably than you also probably have technology letting you build weapons which are just as good as an asteroid impact, but reusable and much less clunky to use.

Seriously? It's not like such a superweapon would be inaccurate either... All it needs is propulsion and astrogation.

At the highest levels, calcs place exterminatus weapons at the low 100's petaton yield. You need to bring said weapon into the star system past the enemy's defenses to bring them to bear. A normal asteroid strike is 0.1 petatons. A moon travelling at lightspeed has 6.6e39J energy. That's 1.5e15 petatons.

Also, let me know why it needs to be reusable when a single use weapon is sufficient to shatter the Imperium as a cohesive fighting force. The Empire would be outgunned at the start of such a fictional conflict, so time is of the essence. A hyperdrive equipped moon uses existing technology. Moving such a large object with hyperdrive is also not unprecedented. Is there some other less clunky but equally effective weapon that you suggest might be quickly developed from off the shelf parts, speedily built for immediate deployment (i.e. as soon as a hyperspace route to Terra is mapped)? If they are "fighting" (i.e. LOSING against) the Imperium, the Empire doesn't have 30 years to build Starkiller Base.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 13:48:39

Post by: Asherian Command

 keezus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If turning moons into ships was practical, both the Imperium and Empire would have done so a long time ago.

The Empire doesn't do it because its not reusable and a non-reusable planet buster isn't much of a terror weapon. The Imperium doesn't do it because destroying entire planets with a one-use weapon isn't an efficient use of their resources. In this case, if either side wanted to destroy a single planet with a non-interceptable relativistic munition, I can think of little else that would create that level of destruction for as little cost (time and money).

 Grey Templar wrote:
Using asteroids as guided bombs is actually woefully inefficient.

How is it inefficient? It only needs to destroy one thing. Who cares if it is not reusable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if you have the technology to do this reliably than you also probably have technology letting you build weapons which are just as good as an asteroid impact, but reusable and much less clunky to use.

Seriously? It's not like such a superweapon would be inaccurate either... All it needs is propulsion and astrogation.

At the highest levels, calcs place exterminatus weapons at the low 100's petaton yield. You need to bring said weapon into the star system past the enemy's defenses to bring them to bear. A normal asteroid strike is 0.1 petatons. A moon travelling at lightspeed has 6.6e39J energy. That's 1.5e15 petatons.

Also, let me know why it needs to be reusable when a single use weapon is sufficient to shatter the Imperium as a cohesive fighting force. The Empire would be outgunned at the start of such a fictional conflict, so time is of the essence. A hyperdrive equipped moon uses existing technology. Moving such a large object with hyperdrive is also not unprecedented. Is there some other less clunky but equally effective weapon that you suggest might be quickly developed from off the shelf parts, speedily built for immediate deployment (i.e. as soon as a hyperspace route to Terra is mapped)? If they are "fighting" (i.e. LOSING against) the Imperium, the Empire doesn't have 30 years to build Starkiller Base.

Because Terra isn't the only place you have to worry about

Plus how would the star wars universe reach the 40k universe? Warp Drives can go over the entirety of the galaxy where star wars has to keep their jumps short.Even if they were able to get into the terran system or go to a nearby plantiod system (Which is in no doubt guarded by the imperium) Even then the likilhood of it getting past the sol systems defenses. Because you would have to have the asteriod or meteroid have engines on the back of it propel it through space to get their reasonable quick.

The amount of time it would take for the asteriod to get there would be extremely slow and even then the simple fact is that it would be very difficult to even get there. Two what if they miss. Three cost efficiency. The cost of having to do this and then having to secure one and then being able to propel it would be astronomically high. Four the empire wouldn't be able to do so without their forces being significantly reduced. The plants defenses known as Star Fortresses have a gravitional pull to their own or you know the imperium uses their own defense system that would devastate and shatter the entirety of the moon that was thrown at them because of lance batteries and nova cannons which can shatter and break apart planets.

You would also have to account for the fact that the Empire would have to deal with not only the imperial navy at the same time, but their own captial world be destroyed and brought into ruin their commanders and leaders can easily be dealt with while the imperium not so much.

Lets give this impossible scenario (All though already in a seriously doubtful scenario of 40k vs star wars fight) You take out terra, What then?

The imperium still lives? Will the Empire really think it would be able to conquer the entirety of the Imperium with little support?

You destroyed Terra, You have painted a giant X on your back. The Imperium is in shamables but the sleeping giant awakens, technology thought lost is brough back to life, the warp dimension connecting to the webway gone forever, the chaos gods finally appeased, withdraw from the warp.

Destroying terra would ultimately be for the betterment of the entire imperium.

All the chaos gods care about is having the emperor die so they can retreat back to their realms.

The chaos god's interest in the material world is superficial. With no enemy to fight other than the necrons. The Chaos Gods would withdraw much of their effort to destroy the imperium. Because their greatest enemy is gone. What need would there be?

And even then we don't know what other unforeseen consequences destroying terra would bring. For all we know, The Emperor could remanifiest himself and the entirety of the imperium reborn anew.

We ultimately don't know what would happen.

But it is completely unreasonable to believe that even with the empire's victory over the imperium by destroying its capital that the imperium wouldn't find a way to get back at them. Even the Star Wars Empire couldn't conquer the imperium. Conquering every single world would be difficult and would take many years to complete if not eternity. You know.... If the imperium didn't have mars, and several other places that could be established as human core worlds. The only way to destroy the imperium would be to destroy its heart. Which is destroying the entirety of the sol system.

Reply by: Deadshot - click to view full reply 

46864

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 13:53:27

Post by: Deadshot

Just re: Death Star on Pg 1, the Imperium has a Death Star on every ship, and they regularly face things that are worse than Death Stars like Blackstone Forgresses and Abaddon's Planetkiller (which is comparable to Starkiller Base of the First Order except it shoots the star to wipe a system instead of blowing up each planet by sucking up the star). If you mean a prime target that would break the opponent's war effort, that's Terra. And you DO NOT get near Terra. Abaddon has billions of troops and 13 crusades and hasn't got close, and his warriors are all more powerful than Stormtoopers. Terra has Asteroid Belt defences, the Ad Mech, the local fleet which would make the Imperial fleet seem like a rowing boat next to the Spanish Armada, the Grey Knights are in system who can also see the future, Terra's void shields which withstood months of bombardment, the palace itself, trillions of civilians who would gladly die in defence of the Emperor, 300 Custodes, plus 2 Titans in the throne room (and even Knights or Warhounds would anihilate AT-ATs in a fight due to massive mobility and firepower.

Reply by: keezus - click to view full reply 

1795

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 14:17:07

Post by: keezus

 Asherian Command wrote:
You destroyed Terra, You have painted a giant X on your back. The Imperium is in shamables but the sleeping giant awakens, technology thought lost is brough back to life, the warp dimension connecting to the webway gone forever, the chaos gods finally appeased, withdraw from the warp.

I hope you are kidding. Its obvious that the Imperium isn't beaten, however, three things will occur with Terra gone, Chaos Gods nonwithstanding (since this is a IoM vs Empire fight after all). I think your assessment of Terra's loss to the IoM is grossly underestimated.

1. Most importantly, the Astronomicon will be gone, meaning that organized resistance will be gone until the Imperium can figure out an alternate way of warp navigation. IoM Fleets can't be coordinated. Fleets in transit will be LOST. Planets can't be resupplied!
2. With the Emperor dead: Imperial Cult will collapse and there is a great possibility that the IoM will fragment into civil war, since the IoM functioned on oppression and since the Astronomicon is gone and there will be no repercussions for insurrection. Considering the standard of living in the Empire is significantly better than in the IoM, it is not unthinkable that entire worlds, cut off from their supplying agri-worlds on the brink of starvation might go over to the Empire.
3. The longer their worlds are isolated, the greater the chance that the IoM will need to "Great Crusade" its own worlds before embarking on a counter offensive.

Regarding asteroid delivery: Clarification: Hyperspace bypasses realspace when the equipped vessel (or rock) accelerates to lightspeed. Sol system's defenses can't attack something not in realspace. On top of that, the firepower needed to vaporize a moon is in the 10000's petatons, and the moon would be exiting Hyperspace at light speed - if Terra's defenses extend out to 100 million km in each direction, response time for intercept would be 1 minute.

Given response time to Starkiller Base's startup time, and the distance from Starkiller Base to the Resistance's stronghold, distances of half a galactic diameter can be travelled in under a day, so I fail to see how this weapon would be slow. The main issue would be mapping the hyperspace route, but as indicated before, using a probe droid swarm and a modicum of espionage to point them in the right direction, this shouldn't take long either. (Maybe a few months).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
Just re: Death Star on Pg 1, the Imperium has a Death Star on every ship

None of the ships in the IoM's regular arsenal have output to vaporize a planet. The planet killer is not a part of the Imperial fleet.

Re: Blackstone Fortress: It is believed that all but one of the Blackstone Fortresses has been destroyed, and that fortress has been possessed by the essence of the Chaos God Slaanesh since the end of the 13th Black Crusade in 999.M41.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 15:24:56

Post by: Asherian Command

 keezus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
You destroyed Terra, You have painted a giant X on your back. The Imperium is in shamables but the sleeping giant awakens, technology thought lost is brough back to life, the warp dimension connecting to the webway gone forever, the chaos gods finally appeased, withdraw from the warp.

I hope you are kidding. Its obvious that the Imperium isn't beaten, however, three things will occur with Terra gone, Chaos Gods nonwithstanding (since this is a IoM vs Empire fight after all). I think your assessment of Terra's loss to the IoM is grossly underestimated.

1. Most importantly, the Astronomicon will be gone, meaning that organized resistance will be gone until the Imperium can figure out an alternate way of warp navigation. IoM Fleets can't be coordinated. Fleets in transit will be LOST. Planets can't be resupplied!
2. With the Emperor dead: Imperial Cult will collapse and there is a great possibility that the IoM will fragment into civil war, since the IoM functioned on oppression and since the Astronomicon is gone and there will be no repercussions for insurrection. Considering the standard of living in the Empire is significantly better than in the IoM, it is not unthinkable that entire worlds, cut off from their supplying agri-worlds on the brink of starvation might go over to the Empire.
3. The longer their worlds are isolated, the greater the chance that the IoM will need to "Great Crusade" its own worlds before embarking on a counter offensive.

Regarding asteroid delivery: Clarification: Hyperspace bypasses realspace when the equipped vessel (or rock) accelerates to lightspeed. Sol system's defenses can't attack something not in realspace. On top of that, the firepower needed to vaporize a moon is in the 10000's petatons, and the moon would be exiting Hyperspace at light speed - if Terra's defenses extend out to 100 million km in each direction, response time for intercept would be 1 minute.

Given response time to Starkiller Base's startup time, and the distance from Starkiller Base to the Resistance's stronghold, distances of half a galactic diameter can be travelled in under a day, so I fail to see how this weapon would be slow. The main issue would be mapping the hyperspace route, but as indicated before, using a probe droid swarm and a modicum of espionage to point them in the right direction, this shouldn't take long either. (Maybe a few months).

Considering my optimism, in a Scenario where the Adeptus Astartes or hell the people who could predict the future would probably see this coming a mile away.

All this science is thrown out the window once a pysker gets involved, if say the emperor just blinked and it phased from existence. Then the problem would be gone. It has happened many times where all of a sudden something happened protecting sol/terra.

CConsidering the expense and the possiblity of lugging a giant rock with a hyper drive it would put that tiny ship into considerable problems and the calculations would have to be extremely accurate to the point of maddening.

As the Empire has NEVER EVER. Done this in any of its material or even thought of this. Then no I don't think it is reasonable to conclude. That the empire. The idiots who lost to a bunch of Ewoks and Rebellious teenagers would win again one of the most compentent military minded empire in the entirety of science fiction. (Baring that of a few other science fiction organizations)

The idea they would have to specifically tailor a hyper drive, a lugging vechile, and also calculating the distance and power required to do so.

So for example from the wiki:

Hyperspace was an alternate dimension that could only be reached by traveling at lightspeed or faster.[1] By entering hyperspace, a starship could take advantage of the wrinkles in the fabric of realspace to reduce journey time significantly, "jumping" from a specific point to another point without having to travel directly between them.[2] However, large objects in realspace cast "mass shadows" in hyperspace, so hyperspace jumps necessitated very precise calculations.[1] Without those, a vessel could fly right through a star or another celestial body.[2] Because of the danger, there existed predetermined hyperspace routes which interstellar travellers could take. Sometimes, the discovery of new safe hyperspace routes could play a pivotal role in a war, as it would allow naval forces to move faster unbeknownst to their adversaries.[3] A vessel's ability to travel through hyperspace depended on its being equipped with a hyperdrive engine.[4] Quick jumps into hyperspace could be unsettling to even experienced pilots, but those with the proper stamina and training could overcome this.[5] The Galactic Empire employed Interdictor cruisers to disable hyperspace capabilities in other vessels, both to pull them from hyperspace and to prevent them from making the jump to it.[6]

It was technically possible for a vessel, such as a shuttle, to disembark from another vessel while in hyperspace, but the procedure carried extreme risk. Such a move would tear the disembarking vessel violently out of hyperspace.[7]

Hyperspace travel was mastered as early as four millennia before the First Order–Resistance conflict, as demonstrated by the existence of hyperspace sextants from that era.[8] At the time of the First Order–Resistance conflict, the First Order discovered sub-hyperspace, which they utilized by their superweapon, the Starkiller Base.[9]

A substintially sized object would cast a shadow within hyper space, that and the calculations have to have according to my calculations a .0001% calculation against error.

Which is inhuman and almost impossible to do with any type of technology.

Few months? Try a couple decades at best.

The man power, the resources, the management, that and also having to deal with the imperium at the same time would spell certain doom for the operation in general.

You are being holly optimistic if you believe they could pull it off without the Imperium knowing something is up. This isn't star trek or stargate where there are characters so damn near perfect or intelligent that they could calculate basically anything, taking them twenty minutes to fix some of hte most complicated objects known to man.

It would take alot more resources than that. Even if the Imperials could pull this off, which is astronomically low. Then what then? all their resources were spent on one action. While the imperium is conquering their worlds, and blasting apart the Empire's fleets. They would have no fleets to get there. At best the Empire would slow the imperium by destroying the Imperium's heart, but once the imperium gets their hands on a hyper drive, that will be mass produced to the point of hilarity. Which would be very common if every single Starwars ship has one.

It would take the admech less than a year to figure it out, by the time the Empire had that super weapon of a meteor done, the Imperial navy would have as a bystead on their new advanced ships hyperdrives and ships that would decimate the Star Wars Universe.

Its not assumption on my part, but known fact from every single battle the Imperium gains technological achievement and reverse engineering that equals that of star trek.

Reply by: keezus - click to view full reply 

1795

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 16:28:07

Post by: keezus

 Asherian Command wrote:
All this science is thrown out the window once a pysker gets involved, if say the emperor just blinked and it phased from existence. Then the problem would be gone. It has happened many times where all of a sudden something happened protecting sol/terra.

You should have opened with this argument. It would have saved everyone a lot of time.

 Asherian Command wrote:
As the Empire has NEVER EVER. Done this in any of its material or even thought of this. Then no I don't think it is reasonable to conclude. That the empire. The idiots who lost to a bunch of Ewoks and Rebellious teenagers would win again one of the most compentent military minded empire in the entirety of science fiction. (Baring that of a few other science fiction organizations)The idea they would have to specifically tailor a hyper drive, a lugging vechile, and also calculating the distance and power required to do so.

Considering the Death Star is Moon Sized and is equipped with a hyperdrive, I don't think it is the stretch that you suggest it to be, since you don't need to build the structure of the moon. Still... Your argument is irrefutable... since it's never been done before in Star Wars... it can clearly NEVER be done ever. Because, Ewoks and all that.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Hyperspace was an alternate dimension that could only be reached by traveling at lightspeed or faster.[1] By entering hyperspace, a starship could take advantage of the wrinkles in the fabric of realspace to reduce journey time significantly, "jumping" from a specific point to another point without having to travel directly between them.[2] However, large objects in realspace cast "mass shadows" in hyperspace, so hyperspace jumps necessitated very precise calculations.[1] Without those, a vessel could fly right through a star or another celestial body.[2] Because of the danger, there existed predetermined hyperspace routes which interstellar travellers could take. Sometimes, the discovery of new safe hyperspace routes could play a pivotal role in a war, as it would allow naval forces to move faster unbeknownst to their adversaries.[3] A vessel's ability to travel through hyperspace depended on its being equipped with a hyperdrive engine.[4] Quick jumps into hyperspace could be unsettling to even experienced pilots, but those with the proper stamina and training could overcome this.[5] The Galactic Empire employed Interdictor cruisers to disable hyperspace capabilities in other vessels, both to pull them from hyperspace and to prevent them from making the jump to it.[6]

It was technically possible for a vessel, such as a shuttle, to disembark from another vessel while in hyperspace, but the procedure carried extreme risk. Such a move would tear the disembarking vessel violently out of hyperspace.[7]

Hyperspace travel was mastered as early as four millennia before the First Order–Resistance conflict, as demonstrated by the existence of hyperspace sextants from that era.[8] At the time of the First Order–Resistance conflict, the First Order discovered sub-hyperspace, which they utilized by their superweapon, the Starkiller Base.[9]

You are correct that multiple jumps would be necessary. However, considering that most of the galaxy is empty space, this is more an issue once you get towards Sol. However, this is also an overestimated problem as planets have this thing called an orbit, and aren't going to be lined up in blocking formation from all directions. When the Imperials arrived in Hoth, they arrived very close to the planet to "surprise" them. The fact that their ships didn't all die from proximity to other planets in the system suggests that while proximity is an issue, flying through them is the bigger problem.

 Asherian Command wrote:
A substintially sized object would cast a shadow within hyper space, that and the calculations have to have according to my calculations a .0001% calculation against error.

You should have opened with this argument as well... anyone who can calculate hyperspace jump coordinates and margin of error can't be argued with... considering its a non-existent technology. Hats off to you sir. I stand corrected.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Few months? Try a couple decades at best.

Again, I doff my hat to your unshakable argument. Its clearly impossible to map space rapidly with hyperdrive equipped droid ships. This has never been done in Star Wars, so clearly, it can never be done - ever... even though it is a combination of existing technologies. Clearly.

 Asherian Command wrote:
You are being holly optimistic if you believe they could pull it off without the Imperium knowing something is up. This isn't star trek or stargate where there are characters so damn near perfect or intelligent that they could calculate basically anything, taking them twenty minutes to fix some of hte most complicated objects known to man.

I think you missed the part where I stated that this would occur while the Imperium is smashing the living feth out of the Empire. Hence the need for out of the box thinking, and speed. But hey... I'm not the guy who can calculate hyperdrive margin of error.

 Asherian Command wrote:
It would take alot more resources than that. Even if the Imperials could pull this off, which is astronomically low. Then what then? all their resources were spent on one action. While the imperium is conquering their worlds, and blasting apart the Empire's fleets. They would have no fleets to get there. At best the Empire would slow the imperium by destroying the Imperium's heart, but once the imperium gets their hands on a hyper drive, that will be mass produced to the point of hilarity. Which would be very common if every single Starwars ship has one. It would take the admech less than a year to figure it out, by the time the Empire had that super weapon of a meteor done, the Imperial navy would have as a bystead on their new advanced ships hyperdrives and ships that would decimate the Star Wars Universe. Its not assumption on my part, but known fact from every single battle the Imperium gains technological achievement and reverse engineering that equals that of star trek.

Man. I have to give it to you. This is such a strong argument I can't even begin to fathom my response... I had never even CONSIDERED that the Admech would speedily reverse engineer all the Star Wars tech... I had assumed that because they were so super powerful that after each engagement they'd only have dust from Imperial ships to research. I forgot about their amazing reverse engineering pedigree too... They certainly have come up with a lot of awesome stuff in the last 1000 years of conflict, like holofield equipped, brightlance wieleding space marines with living metal armor, and molecule flaying bolter rounds, operating from vast fleets of reverse engineered blackstone fortresses, striking their foes at will from the Webway. The Empire doesn't stand a chance.

Thanks again for enlightening. Next time though, just open with the Emperor is Magic argument so we can get to this outcome right away.

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

20243

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 16:37:40

Post by: Grey Templar

Let's assume that hyperspace exists in the 40k universe.

However, it will not be mapped out. It took the Star Wars universe thousands and thousands of years to map out hyperspace, and billions of lost lives in the process. Making an unguided hyperspace jump is almost as dangerous as a warp jump. The Empire would be slow and flailing about blindly in the Milky Way, losing lots of ships due to jumping poorly, like into a star or an asteroid field.

Reply by: keezus - click to view full reply 

1795

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 18:08:17

Post by: keezus

 Grey Templar wrote:
Let's assume that hyperspace exists in the 40k universe.

However, it will not be mapped out. It took the Star Wars universe thousands and thousands of years to map out hyperspace, and billions of lost lives in the process.

Is there a reference for this? I only find references that it is difficult and dangerous... but no references as to how time consuming.

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

20243

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 18:16:27

Post by: Grey Templar

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Republic/Legends

The Old Republic was actively encouraging the mapping of hyperspace, yet it still took them tens of thousands of years to get to the present state of galaxy mapping. And while there were wars interspersed which might have slowed progress, there were also much larger periods of peace which would have allowed for exploration.

The Republic essentially expanded at the rate of exploration more or less.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 19:23:36

Post by: Asherian Command

The Estimation of: .0001% for margin of error would be needed to calculate the exact distance, while also incoporating, speed, velocity, density of object (for how much yield damage it could do), how much resources have to be spent getting it there, and also managing all those resources to even get there and ensure that your ships have enough fuel to pull or lunge that meteoroid.

Now why did I get the number of .0001 is because I divide by 10 for every single occurence you would have to account for (Rough estimation at best.) I do not know how fast a Hyper drive can go, but it is faster than light, so I estimated it to be around... oh well.. 6.706 * 10 ^ 12 the speed of light being around 6.706e+8 (two tenths faster. Which is quite a bit) Then calculating the length and size for an Asteriod or moon to destroy all life and the entire planet is around 100 Miles. From this we can determine whether or not the distance required is greater or less than the speed that hyperspace can go. (Depending we are talking about a planetiod the size of earth)

So lets see:

Alpha Centauri is around 4.24211 10^16 light years away. is it greater or less than 10^9 power? It is greater. So lets calculate how many light years it would take to get there with a hyper drive..... 4.24211*10^16 / 6.706*10^12 (Still in light speed converted so that it is faster)= 6324.336415 Wait what???? This means that even with that it would take 6324.336415 Light years to get there. So in essence it would take. So from this speed we can deduce because it take that long to get there. Easily enough we just divide 6324.336415 by 6.706* 10^12 which is 9.43 * 10 ^ -10 which in seconds is.... 3.395 * 10 ^-6 or to nano seconds which is.... 3395 nanoseconds. So Taking this into account the margin of error would be pretty wide and would need to be almost perfect. As 3395 Nanoseconds means that from alpha centauri it would be like shooting a giant cannon and trying to hit a tiny little red dot on a leaf with a cannon ball. Except your blindfolded.

A simple miscalculation of a hyperdrive jump could make them end up missing the entirety of terra. I highly doubt the empire would devote all of their top scientists, and all their major minds into one hollistic impossible scenario.

Now if it was the Starkiller base that would be a completely different matter. No doubt terra would be phased out of existence by the star killer base along with all the imperial core worlds.

But we have no idea of its range or how long it took to build, and is probably less resource expensive compared to hurling a meteriod through space.

Reply by: Wyzilla - click to view full reply 

78353

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 19:25:25

Post by: Wyzilla

 keezus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If turning moons into ships was practical, both the Imperium and Empire would have done so a long time ago.

The Empire doesn't do it because its not reusable and a non-reusable planet buster isn't much of a terror weapon. The Imperium doesn't do it because destroying entire planets with a one-use weapon isn't an efficient use of their resources. In this case, if either side wanted to destroy a single planet with a non-interceptable relativistic munition, I can think of little else that would create that level of destruction for as little cost (time and money).

 Grey Templar wrote:
Using asteroids as guided bombs is actually woefully inefficient.

How is it inefficient? It only needs to destroy one thing. Who cares if it is not reusable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if you have the technology to do this reliably than you also probably have technology letting you build weapons which are just as good as an asteroid impact, but reusable and much less clunky to use.

Seriously? It's not like such a superweapon would be inaccurate either... All it needs is propulsion and astrogation.

At the highest levels, calcs place exterminatus weapons at the low 100's petaton yield. You need to bring said weapon into the star system past the enemy's defenses to bring them to bear. A normal asteroid strike is 0.1 petatons. A moon travelling at lightspeed has 6.6e39J energy. That's 1.5e15 petatons.

Also, let me know why it needs to be reusable when a single use weapon is sufficient to shatter the Imperium as a cohesive fighting force. The Empire would be outgunned at the start of such a fictional conflict, so time is of the essence. A hyperdrive equipped moon uses existing technology. Moving such a large object with hyperdrive is also not unprecedented. Is there some other less clunky but equally effective weapon that you suggest might be quickly developed from off the shelf parts, speedily built for immediate deployment (i.e. as soon as a hyperspace route to Terra is mapped)? If they are "fighting" (i.e. LOSING against) the Imperium, the Empire doesn't have 30 years to build Starkiller Base.

A moon traveling at lightspeed has no mass.

And you still haven't posted any relevant data proving that the Empire is capable, that they have demonstrated the ability to use this tactic, and if it is even within their character to do so. You are not at the helm of the Galactic Empire- Palpatine is.

Reply by: keezus - click to view full reply 

1795

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 21:08:38

Post by: keezus

 Wyzilla wrote:
A moon traveling at lightspeed [i]has no mass.

I believe you may be incorrect about this. Can you help me with a citation?

 Wyzilla wrote:
And you still haven't posted any relevant data proving that the Empire is capable, that they have demonstrated the ability to use this tactic, and if it is even within their character to do so. You are not at the helm of the Galactic Empire- Palpatine is.

Uh ok. I'm no more at the helm of the Empire than you are Ursarkar Creed, the High Lords of Terra or the God Emperor of Mankind. I'm merely stating a possibility based on megastructures already constructed in canon, using the framework of technology already demonstrated in the canon. Has the Empire built a moon sized thing? YES. Does it move? YES. Is it Hyperdrive equipped? YES. Can the Empire search the galaxy using probe droids? YES. Granted, Grey Templar has brought up an issue regarding scouting the hyperspace lane - but, theoretically, should a lane be found, I don't see any reason why this plan can't be carried out. You say that my proposed solution is not within their character to do so - Strange things happen when your EXISTENCE is threatened. Starving people don't eat their dead compatriots because they it is within their character to do so, it is out of necessity. You suggest that if something has not been done before, it will never occur in the future. Respectfully, that's hardly an argument.

At least Grey Templar is coming back with actual logistical problems with my idea (backed with citation I might add!). I concede that hyperspace mapping IS a problem - possibly solvable by means not shown in canon, but much more likely not solvable with technology currently shown in the Star Wars canon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Now if it was the Starkiller base that would be a completely different matter. No doubt terra would be phased out of existence by the star killer base along with all the imperial core worlds.

Starkiller Base was constructed sometime in the 30 odd years between ROTJ and TFA - which suggests construction time <30 years. In the other IoM vs Star Wars thread, it was noted: the base was hidden in the unknown regions on the edge of the Star Wars galaxy, and fired at a star system in the core worlds, so it has range of at least half a galactic diameter.

@Grey Templar: Since Starkiller Base was outside of the normal hyperspace routes... and the Rebellion managed to hyperspace their arses out there in under a day... could this be considered evidence that hyperspace navigation into uncharted zones is much improved from the time of the old republic? I would posit that the Star Wars canon is a mess - the heroes having too much plot armor (hyperspace hax, force powers etc), and the Empire will always have that weakness against Ewoks. If the New Republic would have just placed Ewoks everywhere, the New Order would never have managed to become a thing.

Reply by: Wyzilla - click to view full reply 

78353

Star Wars Galactic Empire vs Imperium of Man (without Adeptus Astartes) @ 2016/01/20 21:27:11

Post by: Wyzilla

 keezus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
A moon traveling at lightspeed [i]has no mass.

I believe you may be incorrect about this. Can you help me with a citation?

Citation on what, how physics works? E=mc2. Mass increases infinitely when you reach lightspeed- thereby demanding infinite force to accelerate. You can't send a moon at lightspeed without completely eliminating its mass and thereby making it mass-less and allowing it to reach C.

 Wyzilla wrote:
And you still haven't posted any relevant data proving that the Empire is capable, that they have demonstrated the ability to use this tactic, and if it is even within their character to do so. You are not at the helm of the Galactic Empire- Palpatine is.

Uh ok. I'm no more at the helm of the Empire than you are Ursarkar Creed, the High Lords of Terra or the God Emperor of Mankind. I'm merely stating a possibility based on megastructures already constructed in canon, using the framework of technology already demonstrated in the canon. Has the Empire built a moon sized thing? YES. Does it move? YES. Is it Hyperdrive equipped? YES. Can the Empire search the galaxy using probe droids? YES. Granted, Grey Templar has brought up an issue regarding scouting the hyperspace lane - but, theoretically, should a lane be found, I don't see any reason why this plan can't be carried out. You say that my proposed solution is not within their character to do so - Strange things happen when your EXISTENCE is threatened. Starving people don't eat their dead compatriots because they it is within their character to do so, it is out of necessity. You suggest that if something has not been done before, it will never occur in the future. Respectfully, that's hardly an argument.

At least Grey Templar is coming back with actual logistical problems with my idea (backed with citation I might add!). I concede that hyperspace mapping IS a problem - possibly solvable by means not shown in canon, but much more likely not solvable with technology currently shown in the Star Wars canon.

 GKTiberius wrote:
The one thing that keeps echoing in my mind with every post i read in this thread is Why?

Why would the two be fighting? What benefit would be gained. With everything in the Warhammer galaxy, that is a door best left welded and painted shut buy the SW Empire. The only scenario that makes any sense would be the Imperium fleeing into the SW galaxy to escape their own. Any other scenario, the costs and problems presents make a war unfeasible to sustain for any length of time, and would outweigh any benefit categorically. I think this is a valid question, because the goals of each faction would dictate is target, which would predict success. Neither could effectively conquer the other, the SW empire is just too small, force wise, to contend with the IOM, and the IOM lacks the ability, need, or forces to execute a sustained conflict on an extra galactic level, while maintaining the stated peace in their own galaxy. Even fanatical Imperial creed nonsense doesn't stand up to this, because the other galaxy is outside of the light of the Astronomicon. Warp travel wouldn't be possible outside of the IOM galaxy, and the emperor's presence couldn't be felt there. the SW empire would take one look at the 40k milky way and take a hard pass.

 Filch wrote:
Storm Troopers are like imperial guardsmens with less ballistics skills but with essentially super high powered laser rifles that are like s6 ap3 and still shoot 36".

That alone will dump on Astra Militarum.

They also have droid soldiers with mass production clones.

3. Star Wars (hell, even 40k and other fantasy/sci-fi universes) has very sketchy science. I don't think we actually know scat about realistic FTL travel. It's hard to argue the physics when the universes throw it out for us

 Wyzilla wrote:
Citation on what, how physics works? E=mc2. Mass increases infinitely when you reach lightspeed- thereby demanding infinite force to accelerate. You can't send a moon at lightspeed without completely eliminating its mass and thereby making it mass-less and allowing it to reach C.

 Wyzilla wrote:
What about "if they had the intelligence or ability to use it, they would use it" that you do not understand? Being possible means nothing. What matters is feats and actual demonstrated willingness to weaponize an asteroid. It doesn't matter if the Empire even does posses the ability to weaponize a moon or asteroid in such a manner unless they have already DONE SO. This is a fight between FICTIONAL CHARACTERS, and thus these CHARACTERS must remain IN-CHARACTER. You're no more arguing that Batman would totally use his l33t skills and technology to snipe a guy from two kilometers away with a railgun. He wouldn't do that, and he would never do that because it completely breaks his character rule of not taking lives. Likewise the Galactic Empire has never shown itself to be so competent as to weaponize asteroids or moons- it would have invalidated the need of the Death Star and allowed them to destroy the Rebellion overnight. Considering they did not simply wipe all Rebel sympathizer worlds out, they quite clearly are either too stupid (not that surprising considering tactical blunders and ridiculous idiocy is a trait among Star Wars villains) or simply unwilling to go down that route.

 Wyzilla wrote:
You also don't understand hyperspace, because striking an object while in hyperspace does nothing, and will instead have you torn apart by a gravity well. Momentum is also not preserved when existing hyperspace, which is an alternate dimension.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Your argument is worthless to begin with because it breaks the character of the Empire. You are coming up with an idea as if YOU were at the helm of the Empire again- you are instilling competency they lack. It only matters if the characters themselves have actually demonstrated the even the idea to do so. Not to mention that it also breaks the universe, because were you to weaponize asteroids in Star Wars, you could have won the Clone Wars overnight. It is quite easy to see this is not a valid tactic because were it possible in Star Wars, everybody is a drooling mental incompetent too stupid to see a method of war that would have won them every conflict overnight. It breaks the characters of Star Wars, and it breaks the entire setting. "They can do this!!!" means nothing, what matter is what they have actually done in the canon.

 keezus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
You also don't understand hyperspace, because striking an object while in hyperspace does nothing, and will instead have you torn apart by a gravity well. Momentum is also not preserved when existing hyperspace, which is an alternate dimension.

That's great professor. There seems to be a deceleration portion since every time they do it, the streaks which are the stars turn back into stars AFTER they exit... suggesting that the slowdown is an applied effect and not an effect of exiting hyperspace... It's all moot though, since the laws of physics dictate, so hyperspace isn't even a thing, since they can't get the ships moving that fast.

 keezus wrote:

Woah... calm your tits. And here I thought we were having a civilized conversation. Well... that settles it then... if each side is constrained entirely by their previous actions, there can be no winner in this contest. The Imperium can't even beat the Tau. They'll invade a few Imperial worlds and then bugger off to do something more important.

 keezus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Citation on what, how physics works? E=mc2. Mass increases infinitely when you reach lightspeed- thereby demanding infinite force to accelerate. You can't send a moon at lightspeed without completely eliminating its mass and thereby making it mass-less and allowing it to reach C.

Thanks for clearing that up. Reading your original comment, it sounds like you were suggesting that something travelling at lightspeed becomes "zero mass". I was sure this is wrong. I have to thank you for clearing things up. I was lso unaware that the laws of physics were going to trump feats demonstrated in canon. Good to know. Well... that changes everything, since the Empire could conceivably fight the Imperium on an even level ship to ship if that's the case. This changes everything.
Citations please.

 Wyzilla wrote:
What about "if they had the intelligence or ability to use it, they would use it" that you do not understand? Being possible means nothing. What matters is feats and actual demonstrated willingness to weaponize an asteroid. It doesn't matter if the Empire even does posses the ability to weaponize a moon or asteroid in such a manner unless they have already DONE SO. This is a fight between FICTIONAL CHARACTERS, and thus these CHARACTERS must remain IN-CHARACTER. You're no more arguing that Batman would totally use his l33t skills and technology to snipe a guy from two kilometers away with a railgun. He wouldn't do that, and he would never do that because it completely breaks his character rule of not taking lives. Likewise the Galactic Empire has never shown itself to be so competent as to weaponize asteroids or moons- it would have invalidated the need of the Death Star and allowed them to destroy the Rebellion overnight. Considering they did not simply wipe all Rebel sympathizer worlds out, they quite clearly are either too stupid (not that surprising considering tactical blunders and ridiculous idiocy is a trait among Star Wars villains) or simply unwilling to go down that route.

Ah... in character! This is like how Superman doesn't kill people... until he does right?

 Wyzilla wrote:
You also don't understand hyperspace, because striking an object while in hyperspace does nothing, and will instead have you torn apart by a gravity well. Momentum is also not preserved when existing hyperspace, which is an alternate dimension.

That's great professor. There seems to be a deceleration portion since every time they do it, the streaks which are the stars turn back into stars AFTER they exit... suggesting that the slowdown is an applied effect and not an effect of exiting hyperspace... It's all moot though, since the laws of physics dictate, so hyperspace isn't even a thing, since they can't get the ships moving that fast.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Your argument is worthless to begin with because it breaks the character of the Empire. You are coming up with an idea as if YOU were at the helm of the Empire again- you are instilling competency they lack. It only matters if the characters themselves have actually demonstrated the even the idea to do so. Not to mention that it also breaks the universe, because were you to weaponize asteroids in Star Wars, you could have won the Clone Wars overnight. It is quite easy to see this is not a valid tactic because were it possible in Star Wars, everybody is a drooling mental incompetent too stupid to see a method of war that would have won them every conflict overnight. It breaks the characters of Star Wars, and it breaks the entire setting. "They can do this!!!" means nothing, what matter is what they have actually done in the canon.

Woah... calm your tits. And here I thought we were having a civilized conversation. Well... that settles it then... if each side is constrained entirely by their previous actions, there can be no winner in this contest. The Imperium can't even beat the Tau. They'll invade a few Imperial worlds and then bugger off to do something more important.

I await your next enlightening response.

Dripping with condescension, and even half justified in being so. Seriously, though, any citations? Mayhap they mentioned the Millenium Falcon entering a deceleration phase in one of the books? Perhaps they mention a Star Destroyer making a Jump into another dimension?