A question that started in my group and I want to continue onto this board: if/when dark eldar are updated next, assuming things continue with the Decursion level of power, what would the codex need to work properly and be fun to play? This includes unit balance, new choices or old choices being brought back, or new models.

As an example: I hope that all the HQs that are generic gain all their options back. I have 2 haemonculi that have venom blades and liquifier guns, with fluffy tokens to denote the use of Clone Field. Now they aren't "rules legal", for no real reason besides the models not having those options. Likewise I want the Unique HQs to come back. I miss Mr Decapitator, and have had to use a herald of Slaanesh with permission to take the Infiltrate Warlord trait for it to be close

I really wish they would bring back the Duke and the Baron. Some of the coolest characters just up and vanished. But it's not like GW to bring back unique characters after they have taken them out.

We would probably see a lot more deepstriking benefits for them as well. I'd like to see a solid Hellions formations

Rebuild Wyches for scratch - they are highly skilled gladiators and close combat killers that are anything but in the stats. The "elite" versions are even more of a joke.

Basically go back to the Codex before and add in 7.5 Edition stuff.

Dark lances need a booster shot. There the primary anti tank weapon and a signature of the codex and as it stands the weapon kinda sucks.

Giving Dark Eldar more than 2 gun profiles would be a good start.

My issue with a new codex for Dark Eldar is this: The army is fun. It has things that it does well, it has things that it doesn't do so well, it has flavor, it has theme. In a bubble, Dark Eldar only need a few tweaks to individual units, and the army is right where it should be. The problem arises when you take them out of that bubble and compare Dark Eldar to the rest of the game.

Think of how much better Dark Eldar would be after a few fixes to problems in the core game:

-Night fighting is an afterthought. Dark Eldar fight well in the dark, which sounds great and full of flavor, but in reality it's next to useless. Half the time it's night on turn 1. That's it. What's that, 1/10 of the time on average? So on a 24 hour day in the 40k universe you get 2 hours of night. At the very least, give Dark Eldar a piece of wargear they can use once per game that creates night-fighting for the turn.

-Assault is awful. If you assault into cover, you get -2 inches to an already random charge range, you have to weather overwatch, and you strike last. This is just bad game design. Get rid of the initiative penalty for assaulting into cover and make assault grenades deny overwatch. It fixes a lot of issues with the game, and it helps Dark Eldar more than most.

-Ignores cover is way too powerful. The rule itself is fine, but the armies that have it seem to get it for free. If Tau markerlights were a weapon upgrade that strictly gave ignores cover (like tank hunter, monster hunter, or just about any other special rule in this game), there would be no problem, but for some reason ignoring cover in 40k always goes along with other special rules that make it 'auto include'. This helps out a lot of armies/units, but again, it helps DE more than most.

-Allies need inherent disadvantages. There is currently no disadvantage to taking an ally; it's simply a way to take the best units from 2 armies in one list, which makes it more powerful than a pure list by design.

-Formations need to go the way of the Dodo. I don't understand how any game developer can look at some of these decurion formations and think, "Yeah sure, this is healthy for the game." No casual list has a snowball's chance in hell against a formation that gives free units on top of other absurdly powerful benefits, and I don't think formations in general add anything to 40k. Detachments are fine, but they need to be a choice you weigh against taking a CAD and not an auto-include. For instance, Realspace Raiders give you a benefit in night-fighting and 2 more FA slots, but you lose OS. Perfect.

Now there are some issues in the core codex that need fixing: DE characters need to be better, splinter weapons need to be str3, a few units need stat adjustments, DE need more than 2 gun profiles, etc, but I don't think the codex needs a wholesale overhaul like I've heard a lot of players suggest. Dark Eldar have trouble standing up to a lot of the armies, sure, but a lot of that is the fault of inherent problems in the core rules. Treat the illness, not the symptom.

TL;DR - Dark Eldar are fine, the game needs fixing.

I want Vect back.

Wrath Knights

What?

You know they're coming.

I too think that Dark Eldar are mostly fine. The game does need changing on some level.

One thing that I would definitely change for the Dark Eldar though is allowing up to 3 Ravagers per HS slot.

I would also change combat drugs to not be random, and get rid of the useless ones. Maybe make it more akin to Admech level bonuses. Choose 1 drug per turn, but give an overdose rule if they choose the same drug.

Or make Wyches into the 40k Wardancers. Different fighting stances for different bonuses. That might make them more useful.

The Voidraven Bomber should have a StrD bomb.

Hellions fluff says they use their hellglave as a defensive weapon, spinning it around. Maybe give them a -1 to hit roll in combat or in the shooting phase.

An interesting thing to note is that I think that there Should be an artifact similar to what the necrons have (used to have?) That forced night fighting. Maybe have it be that it forces it turn one, 2+ turn two. 3+ turn 3, etc to keep it going. That rule was my main defense for foot sloggers before this new book, and I find it depressing that the new rules only allow one turn of night fighting max. Maybe make the new detacent make the whole game night fighting, but have something like Mandrakes be the required tax. That's my bias though, since I love me some mandrakes~

On a serious note: if the HQs had options in line with CW eldar what new choices would be added? For me I think having Scourge modifications would be the first addon. Maybe have a suicide switch option that causes a large blast pie plate if the HQ dies. Most importantly I think the option to have them onto jetbikes or the green goblin boards should be added.

I think stuff like the Corpse Thief Claw is a step in the right direction, so more of that.

Also as others have said things like useable Wyches and such would be great.

If the haemonculus had his old options back and the Grotesque and wrack models didn't cost FW prices I may have respected the release a bit more. Currently it was just a cash grab that nerfed a majority of the codex

I hear Corsairs is pretty good lol.

Nah but DE will get permanent night fighting as a Realspace Raiding Party bonus.

Night Fighting should be how it was in 6th. Was more fun that way.

The Assault phase needs to be tweaked. When the 2nd to last DE codex came out at my figs my wyches caused even khornzerkers to run. I liked the ptp rule. Overwatch just evaporates all of the careful movement into assault. This current codex made me mad enough to sell my ary I had been building through 3 coders. Bring back special characters and makemthe ICs the cc monsters they are supposed to be. Bump up venom transport to be in line wirh harliedex.

Give them a version of the banshee mask.

"Ignores 'Ignores Cover' " should be a thing.

 JimOnMars wrote:
"Ignores 'Ignores Cover' " should be a thing.

or make it so they can hide in cover so well they are actually invisible. Actually that would be pretty powerful, when DE vehicles jink, they are treated as invisible.

If you were to add a Gargantuan or Super Heavy LOW to the Dark Eldar, what do you see the model being like? Would it be a giant Coven monster? Would it be a Wych Cult beast? Would it be a huge skimmer, tank, transport?

I personally would like to see the Dais of Destruction built as a Super Heavy model with awesome tactical rules out the wazoo.

Don't Deldar have access to reaver titans? If so then there should be a monster of flesh straight from Bloodborne as a cult option. The dias would be rad, but I prefer an opposing faction so would never use the man xD

reevesshady wrote:

Hellions fluff says they use their hellglave as a defensive weapon, spinning it around. Maybe give them a -1 to hit roll in combat or in the shooting phase.

When Hellions were first created, they had a special rule that gave them a 5+ invul vs shooting. And that rule was called "Jinx". It's funny how Dark Eldar are responsible for some USRs (Lance & Turboboost come to mind), yet "Jink" isn't on the unit that had it first.

The Dark Eldar are the "codex of missed opportunies". For example: the Realspace Raiders detachment SHOULD have been "Always Night Fight Turn 1, all DE unit have Shroud during that turn", but instead they grant that silly 5+ cover for Troops, 6+ for all others non-sense. This simple change would not only be fluffy and fun, but would give DE a competitive standing amongst all but the most top-tier army lists.

WHY CAN"T ARCHONS TAKE JETBIKES??????? WWPs and dedicated Venoms are cool and all, but every "decent" CC unit in the codex is faster than an Archon. There is even a 2 page layout in the Codex about a Reaver Champion who made his way up the ranks to become an Archon. Does he just leave his bike In the garage now?

Yes, Ravagers should be a 1-3 squadron choice. Vect needs to be a chariot LoW choice a la Logan Grimnar

Archons should absolutely be able to take Reaver jet bikes. Succubus should be able to as well. I also think that Archons should be able to pay for a scourge upgrade and have wings.

I'm actually weirded out by Archons not having bikes or Hellion boards too. However it may be because Reaver Jetbikes and Hellion boards are things of the roughhousing hooligans, while Archons should be prim and proper.

In that case though I think Archons should be able to take a decked out Raider or even a chariot in the form of a Raider.

Also losing Vect because he didn't have an up-to-date model and then having GW announce that Logan Grimnar of all people is getting a santa sled is a kick square to the balls for Dark Eldar. To me it felt like the whole Finecast fiasco again (in the "you could have done this but you chose to do stupid" type feeling).

Bring back our characters and giving the generic Archon/Succubus/Haemonculus more options would be a good start. In fact, boost options for all units, at present Scourges and Reavers are our only units with a good spread of options.

Plasma grenades for all.

Give Wyches poison for their close combat weapons and at least Assault 2 base and WS5 (but not Haywire grenades all round, I found the idea of Wyches primary role being tank hunting a bit silly), maybe even a Banshee mask equivelant for an upgrade (though unless I'm charging flamers overwatch doesn't really bother me much) and specialist Wych weapons better.

Much better Warlord traits, at present the only ones worth anything are Labarynthine Cunning (re rolls for reserves, size the initiative and night fighting) and Towering Arrogance (12" Fearless bubble).

Move Wracks to troops, unless you're running a Coven list I can't see any reason why you would take Wracks over Incubi, Grotesques, Trueborn or even Mandrakes (and with a Coven list you'd be using the supplement anyway).

Make Demi Klaives worth while again (why do we have to pay 15pts to loose +1S and AP2?).

Mandrakes get their 5+ invuln back whilst keeping Stealth and Shrouded.

Jink for Hellions.

Cheaper Night Shields. Flicker Fields for all (especially flyers).

Give the Voidraven missiles stock at the current points cost, make the Shatterfield's S8 Heavy 1 and the Implosion's Larg blast.

Void Lances on Ravagers, and make them AP1.

Cronos is A5, has the spirit probe as standard as well as the syphon (without a points increase) and can still add the Vortex which is now S4 instead of 3. And a new rule so that for every wound it causes the FnP booster's range increases by 1".

I think I could go on, but thats enough depth for now.

DE will never be fixed as long as stats like I and WS are priced the same as stats like T and BS, when they hold immensely lower value (which is actively lowered by your opponents models)

DE have some units which are...trash.

DE have some units which are very functional.

Things that would make DE next edition good:

HQ options- Let succubus/archons take jetbikes

Venom blades- more options to take them

Wyches- return of Haywire grenades to unit. Wyche dodge becomes a 5++ all the time, 4++ anytime during assault.[including overwatch]

Squad sizes- certain squads need to go back to below 5 models minimum (trueborn/bloodbrides/wracks)

Transport- alternative to squad sizes, venoms need transport capacity 6. This and the above actually caused a gameplay shift that wasn't noticed at first for DE. previously DE could put a Haem in a trueborn unit for example, and they would start with FnP (on T3 its not great....) now you cannot do this, because the min squad size for trueborn is now 5 as opposed to 3. This meant the better and most commonly used transport option could no longer have an IC supporting a squad inside it. (outside of incubi..)

Incubi- They need plasma grenades, they are a dedicated assault unit that gets hampered by terrain and are supposed to be elite.

Hellions- Skyboard should be a jetbike, not a jump pack.

Decurion- 3 core choices. Kabal, Coven, Cult.

RSR- first turn of game has nightfighting always, if nightfighting is in place it lasts an additional turn. +1/-1 to reserves rolls.

Kabal Raiding party- archon, 2 warrior squads, 1 incubi or trueborn squad, and ravager or razorwing squad. [has current RSR bonus]
Coven- Haem, 1 grot squad, 2 wrack squads and cronos or talos squad. Unique PfP table, all units start 1 turn ahead and have +1 to fnp rolls.
Cult- Succ, 1 unit of bloodbrides, 2 units of wyches, 1 unit of reavers or beast masters. [Pick 1 wyche drug, all wyches get this drug + the drug you randomly rolled for, all units in this detachment can charge even if they ran in the shooting phase.

Ravagers- unit of 3 when firing at an unit has ignore cover as long as 3 ravagers in the unit.

Razorwings- unit of 3, when flying over non-vehicle units, causes hits as per the apoc version of same rule.

new wyche unit- heavy support slot. Antigrav chariot pulled by beasts with 2-3 wyche crew with weapons.

something like that.

Wyches should be WS5 and BS3. Maybe some purchasable Special Rules such as Rage or Shred or anything. The way they are right now, they are a tarpit unit, not a close combat one that can wipe out enemies.

Change all Plasma Grenade into Toxic Grenade at S1 AP5 Poison (4+).

Shadow Field becomes 4++ rerollable but you don't lose it anymore,

Desperate Allies with Eldar, Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines. feth alliance chart. feth whoever designed it.

Remove Lhamaen as an HQ for 25 pts.

Power From Pain is improved based on how many units on both sides are dead, not according to turn. Against an enemy with MSU, you can grab all the benefits very soon. This makes more sense instead of the Dark Eldar slapping themselves in the face every turn and growing stronger the more they do so.

Super-heavy or Gargantuan Monstrous Creature. The Dark Eldar used to have Tormentor Engine or something back in the old days. What happened to that?

Splinter Pistol for Incubi. Why removed this in the first place?

Why would dark eldar be allies with space marines. They hate chaos as much if not more than the craftworlds, fear Slannesh specifically and look down on humans generally. All three eldar being allies makes sense, they may not always like each other but they hate everyone else a lot more.

Wyches: how about WS5, BS3, 2 attacks base, and a SR that States "any roll to hit counts as AP2" to represent Wyches striking with precision at weakspots in enemy armour. Give them the option of getting a couple blast pistols per squad and they become a fairly decent, well-rounded unit.

I wish Lance was rewritten to give a +1 bonus when rolling on the vehicle damage chart. It would make Dark Lances a bit worse againt high AV but considerably better against AV 12 and lower.

Warriors should come with pistols so that they could still shoot and charge. Also, Warriors shouldhave access to all the specials, not just blasters and shredders.

Come up with a new HQ type that makes Reavers into Troops and another one for Hellions.

That's something don't get: where in the lore does it say dark eldar would ever ever ally with Craftworlds? They are like chaos with the imperium, total opposites that happen to share a species. Harlequins make sense obviously, and corsairs could be allies of convenience. Chaos doesn't make sense sure, just have to avoid Tyranid level where they get zero allies

I wonder if we'll see a proper DE codex this year. I'm really hoping to see a new dex come out and buff them back up and make em more interesting to play.

Gain Ancient Doom, just like eldar.

Real Space Raider: When determining damage from an exploded vehicle, use the initiative value instead of toughness when rolling to wound. Furthermore, models with this special rule also have the Skilled Rider special rule.

Can choose to start the game with Night fight rules.

Give actually useful artifacts instead of the complete trash we have now

More AP 2 close combat weaponry that I can actually take on an Archon

HQ have access to Jet bikes, Sky Boards and Scourge Wings

Give all the dedicated close combat units assault grenades. Why don't they have access to assault grenades?

Make Phantasm Grenade Launchers actual assault grenades again

Blood Brides have WS 5 and roll twice on the poison chart.

All Wyches gain Dodge against overwatch and rending attacks in close combat

Wracks moved to Core

Hellions moved to core and have 2 attacks base and access to assault grenades

Trueborn given ghost plate armour as standard

Razorwing and Voidraven gain vector dancer, stealth and armour 11.

Void Lances and Void mine are D weapons

Shredders gain the monofilament rule and shred (why don't they have shred?) and are now flamer templates

Venoms are now 6 passenger capacity

Raiders are now 12 passenger capacity

Web way portal can be placed anywhere on the board, any unit arriving from reserves may use it and you can assault out of it.

I'm sure theres more stuff. Words can't describe how bad this codex is. I can't believe they released it, hopefully the new one has a little bit of life to it.

autumnlotus wrote:
A question that started in my group and I want to continue onto this board: if/when dark eldar are updated next, assuming things continue with the Decursion level of power, what would the codex need to work properly and be fun to play? This includes unit balance, new choices or old choices being brought back, or new models.

As an example: I hope that all the HQs that are generic gain all their options back. I have 2 haemonculi that have venom blades and liquifier guns, with fluffy tokens to denote the use of Clone Field. Now they aren't "rules legal", for no real reason besides the models not having those options. Likewise I want the Unique HQs to come back. I miss Mr Decapitator, and have had to use a herald of Slaanesh with permission to take the Infiltrate Warlord trait for it to be close

Okay the key to a Dark Eldar Codex release is to simultaneously put out all the codex no one actually cares about but everyone who plays those armies WISH people cared about. So you'd do Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Witch Hunters, etc all at once and have the entire community go, 'wow, w/e, slow month for 40k I guess.' If it came out within a month of the new CSM book you wouldn't even have to roll your eyes at the Chaos players whining about how THEIR army is the most unloved one of all.

All poison weapons wound on 3+ instead of 4+
All Lance weapons reduce AP value to 11 instead of 12
Dodge works against overwatch
Poison for Witches
One extra turn of night fighting.
Void mine is S D


On the other hand .... Dark Eldar work good against BA, SW, GK, Orks, Imps, Bugs, Deamons, CSM ....
So why does everyone want to make all These armys better. Wouldn't it be easier to nerf just 4 (Necrons, Eldar, SM, Tau)?

Because even if you nerfed those armies, every other codex you listed has garbage internal balance.

autumnlotus wrote:
That's something don't get: where in the lore does it say dark eldar would ever ever ally with Craftworlds? They are like chaos with the imperium, total opposites that happen to share a species. Harlequins make sense obviously, and corsairs could be allies of convenience. Chaos doesn't make sense sure, just have to avoid Tyranid level where they get zero allies

* That time they showed up to help Iyanden because they found Iyanden's necromancy hillarious/decadent.

* Valedor, where they teamed up to fight Tyranids again.

* That part where they both *really* hate Slaanesh.

* That part where they both really hate necrons.

*Both have ties to harlequins who could theoretically call in favors.

* Both use the webway and would reasonably want to protect it.

The dark eldar see craftworlders as silly, boring prudes, and the craftworlders see the dark eldar as perverse, disgusting freaks, but they're both still eldar. That really important ruin where that seriously bad thing was sealed up? Their cousins get how important is is for that thing to remain sealed. That planet with all the unsealed webway portals? Better go wipe out whatever is trying to invade it. They have plenty of disagreements, but they share enough history and long-view perspective to work together when they have to.

Wyldhunt wrote:

autumnlotus wrote:
That's something don't get: where in the lore does it say dark eldar would ever ever ally with Craftworlds? They are like chaos with the imperium, total opposites that happen to share a species. Harlequins make sense obviously, and corsairs could be allies of convenience. Chaos doesn't make sense sure, just have to avoid Tyranid level where they get zero allies

* That time they showed up to help Iyanden because they found Iyanden's necromancy hillarious/decadent.

* Valedor, where they teamed up to fight Tyranids again.

* That part where they both *really* hate Slaanesh.

* That part where they both really hate necrons.

*Both have ties to harlequins who could theoretically call in favors.

* Both use the webway and would reasonably want to protect it.

The dark eldar see craftworlders as silly, boring prudes, and the craftworlders see the dark eldar as perverse, disgusting freaks, but they're both still eldar. That really important ruin where that seriously bad thing was sealed up? Their cousins get how important is is for that thing to remain sealed. That planet with all the unsealed webway portals? Better go wipe out whatever is trying to invade it. They have plenty of disagreements, but they share enough history and long-view perspective to work together when they have to.

All this and more - there is also the (relatively new aspect) that you can move between the two "races" - usually via Corsair bands:

So a Craftworld Eldar can be become more and more wild and bloodthirsty but eschew the Aspect warrior path and become a corsair, he then enjoys it even more and becomes part of Dark Eldar aligned groups and eventually transitions to a full member of their decadent and brutal society - its not clear how this exactly works but its clear it does.

Conversely a Dark Eldar Dracon loses her place and flees with loyal followers and her warship to become a Corsair captain, she becomes less reliant on the torture of others to survive until she reaches a point where she (somehow) no longer has the power from pain aspect to her soul......... There is actually a character who is described in exactly this way in the path novels.

It still seems stupid to me. Like sure they should be able to ally. But Battle Brothers seems insane. Just like Ultramarines being Battle Brothers to Space Wolves, or sisters of battle with grey knights. In narratives games everyone should be battle brothers for "forging the Narrative", but in general allies should be realistic rather then be so Gamey. That and if it stays this way Deldar will forever just be CW eldar's utility belt rather then equals

autumnlotus wrote:
It still seems stupid to me. Like sure they should be able to ally. But Battle Brothers seems insane. Just like Ultramarines being Battle Brothers to Space Wolves, or sisters of battle with grey knights. In narratives games everyone should be battle brothers for "forging the Narrative", but in general allies should be realistic rather then be so Gamey. That and if it stays this way Deldar will forever just be CW eldar's utility belt rather then equals

The only reason that DEldar are used in this way is that their codex is so very very poor and the Eldar one is so very very broken. IF both were equal then the issue would either not arise or indeed matter.

Its the same problem with the Imperial Alliances - its not that its unrealistic (it isn't the Imperial forces are merely part of a giant if unwieldy war machine) its that the combinations are potentially broken or save to prop up a poor codex.

You are probably right that Allies of Convenience would cover most aspects nicely.............

Rhats the thing though, just because they aren't shooting at eachother on sight doesn't mean they should be allies. If chaos marines can't work with a renegade Deldar force, then eldar shouldn't get that same privilege xD either everyone can ally with everyone for fluff, or only people with direct connections to eachother should. Like impguard to tau, sisters to black Templar, inquisition to all imperium, etc.

I won't argue about the corsairs though. In that they are like orks: anyone can hire them, given the right circumstances...besides tyranids, because they dotn have the diplomats in their fluff anymore.

I deeply dislike the Allied Matrix since it broke the balance for a lot of armies and I think Morden illustrate it very clearly. Basically the Dark Eldar and Harlequins have become "add-ons" for the existing CW Eldar Army. When allied, they fulfill a niche that the core CW Eldar army does not have a solution for (cheap assault vehicles that can take lots of troops, Darklances, Poison weapons) but when they're on their own they have only the barest of minimum to solve the general problems on their own (or, in the case of Harlequins, no solutions at all for certain cases).

Personally I think they should get rid of the Allied Matrix and instead make it so that certain armies can ally with others, like the old Daemonhunter and Witchhunter codexes.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Gain Ancient Doom, just like eldar.

Real Space Raider: When determining damage from an exploded vehicle, use the initiative value instead of toughness when rolling to wound. Furthermore, models with this special rule also have the Skilled Rider special rule.

Can choose to start the game with Night fight rules.

Give actually useful artifacts instead of the complete trash we have now

More AP 2 close combat weaponry that I can actually take on an Archon

HQ have access to Jet bikes, Sky Boards and Scourge Wings

Give all the dedicated close combat units assault grenades. Why don't they have access to assault grenades?

Make Phantasm Grenade Launchers actual assault grenades again

Blood Brides have WS 5 and roll twice on the poison chart.

All Wyches gain Dodge against overwatch and rending attacks in close combat

Wracks moved to Core

Hellions moved to core and have 2 attacks base and access to assault grenades

Trueborn given ghost plate armour as standard

Razorwing and Voidraven gain vector dancer, stealth and armour 11.

Void Lances and Void mine are D weapons

Shredders gain the monofilament rule and shred (why don't they have shred?) and are now flamer templates

Venoms are now 6 passenger capacity

Raiders are now 12 passenger capacity

Web way portal can be placed anywhere on the board, any unit arriving from reserves may use it and you can assault out of it.

I'm sure theres more stuff. Words can't describe how bad this codex is. I can't believe they released it, hopefully the new one has a little bit of life to it.

This would be a good start.

Honestly though, I think the thing I hate most about the current DE codex isn't the horrendous internal balance or the abysmal external balance, it's that it's so bloody boring.

Dark Eldar should be fun. Otherwise, why even play them? I can tell you right now that it isn't for the moral highground.

The 5th edition book might not have been perfect, but it had great fluff and flavour. Not only was there a plethora of wargear, but there was also a genuine effort to make interesting rules that brought the fluff of that wargear to life. Granted, the rules weren't always great in a competitive sense, but at least you could see the writers were trying.

In the new book, not only has the wargear been cut down drastically, but it's also evident that no effort whatsoever went into anything in the book. Not only did sod-all effort go into creating new stuff (mainly because there is no new stuff), but flavourful rules from the old book were replaced with dull, lifeless generic ones. e.g.:
- Urien used to regenerate 1 wound automatically each turn (this was a huge part of his fluff). Now he has IWND.
- Clone Field used to ignored d3 attacks in combat. Now it's a 4++.
- Electrocorrosive Whip and Mindphase Gauntlet used to mess with the enemy attacks or characteristics when they hit. Now they have Concussive. Concussive. On an army that's about 90% I5+ models.
etc.

What's worse is not only are these rules vastly less flavourful than their 5th edition counterparts, they're not even more functional. We've literally traded flavour for nothing whatsoever. This at the same time that every Eldar unit is swimming in unique special rules.

In terms of how to fix DE, make sure that the people writing it actually have a modicum of enthusiasm for the army.

@Vipoid: We are of one mind, brother.

To me, the 5th edition dark eldar book is probably my favorite codex that I've ever owned (sorry, craftworlders!) It was dripping with fluff, you could make very distinct, flavorful armies, and those options that weren't necessarily effective were at least fun!

Mindphase gauntlet was meh in 5th edition because it was too trick to slap a character with it. So when they get a 7th edition book and you're excited to see something similar now that challenges exist... it's concussive.

Hellions used to be able to yoink a guy out of combat, potentially giving you a great way to dismantle deathstars. Now that wargear is instant death with no ap on a low strength model...

Wych weapons used to give you unique ways to use them (tarpit, reliable damage, higher potential damage), but now they're just variations on "reroll this or that."

I miss how visceral Power From Pain used to feel too. I'd kind of like to see something along the lines of a Blood Tithe rule for PFP. Every time a unit dies, you charge up your pain batteries. Then let players decide how many pain tokens they want to use up in a turn to grant buffs army-wide. Maybe let sweeping advances prevent your pain tokens from ever dropping below a certain point (as a nod to the old slave taking rules).

That would go a long way towards keeping them interesting. As for mechanics, I'm not sure what we need. I hear people saying we need mid-strength high RoF weapon to pop transports, but I'm not sure that's the case. Let warriors take a second AT weapon (or count dark lances as holding still while in vehicles), maybe open up warrior access to haywire blasters or even heat lances (weird weapon, but good AP), and I feel like you go a long way towards solvling tank-busting woes. We've got blaster born, forgeworld reapers, and scourges, and those are all pretty solid tank busters. Not eldar-good, but good.

One rule that I'd really love to see is an assault move for vehicles. Mobility is supposed to be the dark eldar thing. Currently, craftworlders with battle focus outmaneuver our infantry and their planes have vector dances where ours don't. Harlequins can run and assault where we can't (not that it isn't fluffy and appropriate for harlies). Corsairs can take jet packs all over the place. Sure, dark eldar have lots of deepstrike, but an assault move would be fantastic. It still binds dark eldar to their vehicles as per tradition, but it lets you do drivebye shooting and rely on mobility to hide afterwards. That seems like a reasonable piece of wargear or formation rule, right?

Dark eldar and eldar have helped each other several times in the past. Additionally there is fluff to suggest individuals going back and forth between the two.

Again Battle brothers doesn't reflect that there best friends ever. It reflects that the eldar ultimately is one race that holds themselves above all others. As for allies leading to broken combos that violate the background, this has always existed in 40k and is something I put on the players as much as GW.

Honestly though, I think the thing I hate most about the current DE codex isn't the horrendous internal balance or the abysmal external balance, it's that it's so bloody boring.

Dark Eldar should be fun. Otherwise, why even play them? I can tell you right now that it isn't for the moral highground.

Indeed. I usually don't really rate codex's by their power level, but by the way in which a codex allows you to create a themed army, but this book was just gutted as far as options go. Like, litterally everything interesting turned to gak. Boring doesn't begin to describe this book, I think this might be the worst codex of all time. It's definitely up there with Chaos Marines (both 4th and 6th edition, although I still think 6th is worse).

The one that killed me is the Djinn Blade. 30 pts for a strength 3 ap 3 weapon that might kill you...lol. Who wrote this?

Every time I think about taking my army out of the display case and playing with it, I try to build an army and I just give up half way, I just don't care.

5th edition Dark Eldar wasn't a great codex by any means either. I had my gripes with some of it, but that was practically a masterpiece compared to this trash. At least that book was playable for the time, I'm still convinced that Phill Kelly has absolutely no idea what he is doing.

Making eldar and dark eldar not battle brothers would be a very good thing for dark eldar.

Currently most tournament s see dark eldar in armies as taxi services for eldar. Dark eldar have model sales for mostly this reason and for people who like modeling and painting, a lesser amount of sales represents people who play primarily or only dark eldar.

If eldar were not BB GW would have to give more consideration to making more of the dark eldar codex viable .

Making them not Battle Brothers just means they show up even less at tournaments.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Making them not Battle Brothers just means they show up even less at tournaments.

if they were made not BB now as an errata yes, if they were made not BB during a design process- not necessarily.

I'm pretty sure the codex would've been written as poorly. The design change happened after Necrons.

A couple more points:

1) I get that we're always going to be playing second-fiddle to Eldar in terms of firepower and durability (not to mention Psykers), but do we have to be worse in speed, too? I thought speed was our thing. Our only thing, really. Yet whilst our HQs are stuck walking, Eldar are overflowing with Jetbikes. Whilst our *hovering* MCs are stuck moving 6", the Eldar Power Rangers Action Figure can fly 6" per turn. And, that's not evven getting into how Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks completely outclass anything we have. Or the fact that Battle Focus makes Eldar infantry arbitrarily faster than ours.

Could we maybe be allowed to do one thing better than Eldar?

2) I get that our HQs are never going to win in the toughness department, but why are they stuck hitting like wet socks? I thought the entire purpose of glass cannons was to hit harder than tougher opponents, yet (as usual) we seem to be stuck with the worst of both worlds. Which is your favourite Archon weapon? The S3 AP3 weapon, the S3 AP3 weapon, the S3 AP3 weapon or the other S3 AP3 weapon? And, what's worse is that our HQs contribute absolutely nothing else. Autarchs at least have reserve-manipulation, but Archons and Succubi have no support abilities whatsoever. They exist only as beatsticks, yet lack any meaningful weapons. Their weapons would be considered pathetic even if they weren't T3. And what's worse is that 2 of the above cost as much as a Power Fist, and the third costs more. Why? Why even bother printing these weapons if you could replace every single one with a picture of the design team mooning you, and the players wouldn't even notice (save perhaps that their codex had suddenly become less offensive)?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

The one that killed me is the Djinn Blade. 30 pts for a strength 3 ap 3 weapon that might kill you...lol. Who wrote this?

Not only can it kill you, but if it wounds you it will also deny you your Shadowfield save, and then destroy your Shadowfield. The same Shadowfield that costs 40pts, because God forbid DE get even a single piece of wargear that isn't hideously overcosted.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the codex would've been written as poorly. The design change happened after Necrons.

?

Dark Eldar were released before necrons. The design change for DE to 7th definitely did not happen after necrons.


Tau Empire ISBN 978-1785810091 October 2015
Dark Angels ISBN 978-1782537526 June 2015
Space Marines ISBN 978-1782537472 June 2015
Cult Mechanicus ISBN 978-1782537427 May 2015
Imperial Knights ISBN 978-1782537342 May 2015
Craftworlds ISBN 978-1782537304 April 2015
Skitarii ISBN 978-1782537380 April 2015
Khorne Daemonkin ISBN 978-1782537267 March 2015
Harlequins ISBN 978-1782536833 February 2015
Necrons ISBN 978-1782536079 January 2015
Blood Angels ISBN 978-1782536123 December 2014
Dark Eldar ISBN 978-1782534839 October 2014
Grey Knights ISBN 978-1782533702 August 2014
Space Wolves ISBN 978-1782533818 August 2014
Orks ISBN 978-1782533290 June 2014

There was obviously an overall change in game design GW put out at the point of Necrons on.

 vipoid wrote:
A couple more points:

1) I get that we're always going to be playing second-fiddle to Eldar in terms of firepower and durability (not to mention Psykers), but do we have to be worse in speed, too? I thought speed was our thing. Our only thing, really. Yet whilst our HQs are stuck walking, Eldar are overflowing with Jetbikes. Whilst our *hovering* MCs are stuck moving 6", the Eldar Power Rangers Action Figure can fly 6" per turn. And, that's not evven getting into how Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks completely outclass anything we have. Or the fact that Battle Focus makes Eldar infantry arbitrarily faster than ours.

Could we maybe be allowed to do one thing better than Eldar?

2) I get that our HQs are never going to win in the toughness department, but why are they stuck hitting like wet socks? I thought the entire purpose of glass cannons was to hit harder than tougher opponents, yet (as usual) we seem to be stuck with the worst of both worlds. Which is your favourite Archon weapon? The S3 AP3 weapon, the S3 AP3 weapon, the S3 AP3 weapon or the other S3 AP3 weapon? And, what's worse is that our HQs contribute absolutely nothing else. Autarchs at least have reserve-manipulation, but Archons and Succubi have no support abilities whatsoever. They exist only as beatsticks, yet lack any meaningful weapons. Their weapons would be considered pathetic even if they weren't T3. And what's worse is that 2 of the above cost as much as a Power Fist, and the third costs more. Why? Why even bother printing these weapons if you could replace every single one with a picture of the design team mooning you, and the players wouldn't even notice (save perhaps that their codex had suddenly become less offensive)?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

The one that killed me is the Djinn Blade. 30 pts for a strength 3 ap 3 weapon that might kill you...lol. Who wrote this?

Not only can it kill you, but if it wounds you it will also deny you your Shadowfield save, and then destroy your Shadowfield. The same Shadowfield that costs 40pts, because God forbid DE get even a single piece of wargear that isn't hideously overcosted.

Speed:
I very much agree. It's cool that craftworlders have vector dancer planes, but surely the true kin deserve it even more than they do? Power From Pain as an alternative to Battle Focus is a neat idea, but PFP is so rarely helpful compared to Battle Focus that they really aren't comparable. As I mentioned earlier, I'd love some wargear or formation rules that let dark eldar vehicles make thrust moves in the assault phase.

HQ Options:
I agree that we could really use some more variety in our HQ weapon options. We could certainly stand to get some of the flavor that we lost back. That said, I really don't share most dark eldar players' hatred of our HQ's. The haemonculus is sort of meh, but Covens lets you do neat things with them. Succubi are the place to look if you want AP2, and that AP 2 is potentially strength 6 on the charge (albeit that's only on turn 4+ and only if you get bonus strength drugs), but still. The succubus is an okay little beatstick. The archon can take a 2+ invul, which is a pretty big deal, and he has access to a couple half decent guns which he shoots with a solid BS. They're far from cheesy, and they're maybe a bit expensive, but they seem fine to me.

What HQ's are we comparing them to? Our archons wish they could have some of the autarch's options, but we have a better statline, webway portals, and access to a 2+ invul. Autarchs are cool, but archons probably actually have a bit more raw power. A generic chaptermaster/battle captain is obviously a lot more durable than our succubi, but we'll still swing before them and ignore their armor with an archon glaive. Warbosses hit hard, but we have pretty solid odds of winning against one in combat (albeit you'll have to look to Drazhar or Lelith if he's wearing 2+ armor). Sure, we don't compare to a tricked out Wolf Lord on a T-Wolf or unkillable relic chapter masters, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

Most dark eldar unis are bullies that would rather engage in fights they know they can win than have a "fair" fight, and our HQs are no exception. My archon can tank wounds or offer a few special toys to a squad (haywires, agonizer, webway portal). Succubi offer AP2, and I find that they tend to win their challenges. It's keeping them alive against the enemies they don't kill that proves tricky. I'm less enthused about haemonculi, but coven formations are cool. Drazhar actually kicks a lot of butt for me on a regular basis with his solid armor, high-strength AP2, rampage, etc. The trick is to stick him in a FA venom by himself rather than attaching him to incubi.

Respectfully, what are you looking for from our HQs that they aren't offering? I agree that giving them hellion boards, scourge wings, and bikes again would be cool. I agree that more weapon variety (basically just a return to what they could take in the last book) would be nice, and we all know that power weapons everywhere are overcosted. But that said, what would you like to see our HQs do that they don't already? AP2 would be nice, but to me, you're not really meant to assault guys in 2+ armor with an archon. You poison them to death or blast them away with, er, blasters. Or heck, maybe even send in the incubi if they aren't in terrain.

All the codexes pre necron are weak because they reflect a abrupt change in design philosophy.

The whole glass cannon thing applies to the whole army IMO.

Yes, the Archon can have a very expensive 2++ that can short out. But he is by no means a tank, a single roll of a 1 and he's toast to anything strength 6+ and after his Shadowfield shorts out he's pretty much naked. Succubus with a 4++ isn't great either, again anything strength 6+ will insta-gib her. For Eldar, an impressive statline is pretty much irrelevant, they are still strength 3, toughness 3. If you don't have access to good wargear, you're pretty much useless in combat.

Every HQ choice in Space Marines for example has access to AP 2 weapons, hell their unit champions have access to more/better weapons than our HQ.

Personally, I want to see some of the nastiest, most overpowered combat weapons in the game next to Chaos Marines. Dark Eldar is all about speed and hitting power, currently we lack hitting power and other armies can equal our speed whilst maintaining both hitting power and survivability. The fragility of the army is an important weakness and I want to keep it that way, but we need something to overcome that.

Wyldhunt wrote:

HQ Options:
I agree that we could really use some more variety in our HQ weapon options. We could certainly stand to get some of the flavor that we lost back. That said, I really don't share most dark eldar players' hatred of our HQ's. The haemonculus is sort of meh, but Covens lets you do neat things with them.

I'd argue Covens lets you do neat things in spite of Haemonculi.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Succubi are the place to look if you want AP2,

But why? Why aren't our Archons allowed AP2? You don't see this with other armies.

Wyldhunt wrote:

and that AP 2 is potentially strength 6 on the charge (albeit that's only on turn 4+ and only if you get bonus strength drugs),

By potentially, you mean 1/6 games, and then only from turn 4 onwards.

Let me know when Succubi are S6 by default.

Wyldhunt wrote:
The archon can take a 2+ invul, which is a pretty big deal

No, no it isn't. Not when that 2++ costs 2/3 of his base cost and is lost the first time he fails it (though odds are he's dead the first time he fails it anyway). Again, I see other HQs walking around with T5, 4 wounds and 2+/3++ saves that never go away and cost vastly less than Shadowfields. Oddly, this doesn't seem to limit those HQs in any way - they're also allowed vastly better weapons than the Archon.

Wyldhunt wrote:
and he has access to a couple half decent guns which he shoots with a solid BS.

A couple? He has, at best, one, and even that is overpriced garbage.

Wyldhunt wrote:

What HQ's are we comparing them to? Our archons wish they could have some of the autarch's options, but we have a better statline, webway portals, and access to a 2+ invul.

And Autarchs come with a 4++ and Haywire Grenades by default (taking both of which would raise an Archon's cost by 25pts). Not to mention having access to Jetbikes, 18" movement wings and Warp Spider Jump Packs. And that's on top of having better melee weapons and vastly better guns.

Wyldhunt wrote:
A generic chaptermaster/battle captain is obviously a lot more durable than our succubi, but we'll still swing before them and ignore their armor with an archon glaive.

The Archon certainly doesn't ignore their armour because he had no AP2 weapons. Not to mention that he captains/chapter masters come with a 4++ (and can upgrade it to a 3++ for a pittance), have access to S8 AP2 weapons (or a S7 AP2 weapon that strikes at initiative), and can be T5 with a 12" move.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Most dark eldar unis are bullies that would rather engage in fights they know they can win than have a "fair" fight, and our HQs are no exception.

That should be a player choice - not something that's forced on us because our HQs can't fight heir way out of a wet paper bag.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Respectfully, what are you looking for from our HQs that they aren't offering?

Here's what I'd like to see:

- Weapons with actual bite. It shouldn't have to be 4pm on the third Tuesday of the month for our weapons to actually hit at decent strength.

- AP2 and or Rending on the Huskblade and Djin Blade, at the very least.

- Significant cost reductions on wargear (Shadowfield, Clonefield, most of out melee weapons)

- Options for Jetbike, Wings and Skyboard for HQs

- It would also be nice if the Archon had an ability of some kind. I know it's pointless to expect something as fluffy as interesting as a the First Prince ability (on Corsair Princes), but just something. Whether a support ability like the Autarch (though probably with a more offensive focus) or else something that just helps him personally.

At the end of the say, I want characters who don't feel like they were designed by the incarnation of a filing cabinet.

With whoever said that Dark Eldar should have speed, I totally agree.

I forgot what Battle Focus does but I think Dark Eldar should have the "run and shoot" ability (I think that's what Battlefocus is) AND for wyches, Charge after Running. In terms of overall speed though, I think the design philosophy should be that if a unit does not have access to a transport of some kind, jetbikes or hoverboards, it should have 12 inch movement (Talos should totally have something akin to "Monstrous Beast" type. Tell me that bag of flesh isn't a monstrous beast). Nothing in this codex should have any less, and completely do away with heavy and salvo weapons. Conversely, to balance this out, ranged weapons should have short ranges, to encourage more "drive by shootings", which fits the theme of Dark Eldar and their Raiding tendencies. It also cuts down on a problem often cited against the tau, namely that they can backtrack and still shoot people since their guns still have ridiculously long range on the move.

Personally, I think Wyches should have something akin to flyers in that you can only ever fire Snapshots at them unless you have a specific rule that overrides it (what rule this would be without totally upheaving the core rules is beyond me though). Wyches are suppose to be insanely fast and rely on dodging rather than armor, so it should be represented in the rules. I don't actually want them to do this though, because functionally it makes wyches totally usurp Wracks in the role of "insanely durable troops" and takes away one of the primary reasons why Wyches are hard to play.

Drugs need to be simplified. Instead of a D6 roll in which half the abilities are crap, it should be a D3 roll in which all the abilities are awesome, granting both a +1 stat AND a USR

Wyches should also have Rending to represent them stabbing the gaps in armour.
---------------------
Honestly I would only make 3 changes to the entire Codex to make them better.

1) RSR detachment is always Night fight turn 1, all units have Shroud during that turn.

2) Archons and Succubus have access to Reaver jetbikes.

3) Wyches, BloodBrides & Hellions have Jink & Rending.

@Vipoid:
All fair points. I do okay with my HQs in their current incarnation, but I would love to see more/better options for them too.

@MechaEmperor7000:
Always-on invisibility is probably a bit of a stretch for wych speed, especially considering neither daemonettes nor harlequins have it. I actually think their 4+ dodge save is great as is in melee. They just need for it to also apply against overwatch, to have easier acces to FNP again, and to get some version of a wych weapon for tarpitting back. In the past, wyches have served well as a tarpit unit. Think of them as entertainers that draw out the suffering rather than ending it quickly.

@Galef:
I like the d3 idea for wych drugs! Maybe something like:
1. Speedy drug: grants +1 Attack, and lets you run and charge.
2. Toughness drug: grants +1 Toughness and +1 FNP.
3. Strength drug: grants +1 strength and... rending maybe?

Rending as default on wyches makes a lot of sense, but part of me wants to make that a bloodbride thing. There's probably nothing wrong with giving rending or pseudo-rending to normal wyches though as it's basically melee bladestorm.

Not sure I'm sold on your 3 changes though. I'd rather have a detachment make it be nightfighting for multiple turns rather than just grant a slightly better cover save turn 1. Our HQs should definitely have access to bikes, boards, and wings on the basis of those things being cool, but I'm not sure we'd suddenly see big reaver or hellion squads very often. The option is nice, but we'd probably see shadowfields in seer councils much more often than we'd see succubi leading hellion packs.

Giving wyche etc. jink would be pretty snazzy though.

Could always have Bloodbrides rend on 5s.

Really bloodbridea need a massive buff to ever be used. Maybe make the specialty weapons cheaper for them, giving a bonus if all of them use the same weapon? Or have all them them getting the option to use the AP 2 glaive? Something to warrent buying an expensive fragile model when they have to fight over the position with Incubi

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
With whoever said that Dark Eldar should have speed, I totally agree.

I forgot what Battle Focus does but I think Dark Eldar should have the "run and shoot" ability (I think that's what Battlefocus is) AND for wyches, Charge after Running. In terms of overall speed though, I think the design philosophy should be that if a unit does not have access to a transport of some kind, jetbikes or hoverboards, it should have 12 inch movement (Talos should totally have something akin to "Monstrous Beast" type. Tell me that bag of flesh isn't a monstrous beast). Nothing in this codex should have any less, and completely do away with heavy and salvo weapons. Conversely, to balance this out, ranged weapons should have short ranges, to encourage more "drive by shootings", which fits the theme of Dark Eldar and their Raiding tendencies. It also cuts down on a problem often cited against the tau, namely that they can backtrack and still shoot people since their guns still have ridiculously long range on the move.

Personally, I think Wyches should have something akin to flyers in that you can only ever fire Snapshots at them unless you have a specific rule that overrides it (what rule this would be without totally upheaving the core rules is beyond me though). Wyches are suppose to be insanely fast and rely on dodging rather than armor, so it should be represented in the rules. I don't actually want them to do this though, because functionally it makes wyches totally usurp Wracks in the role of "insanely durable troops" and takes away one of the primary reasons why Wyches are hard to play.

Blast/template would be unavoidable to the fast ladies right? In terms of fluff and rules the imperial assassins have a 4+ inv save due to reflexes so why not wyches?

Well Wyches don't have the same training that Assassins do. A regular 5++ outside of combat would be fine for their price.

Assuming they don't have that. I haven't seen anyone talking about them since they took away their Haywire grenades, which was why anyone took them in the first place.

Which is a problem. They need to be useful in CC, or cheap enough that they can soak wounds long enough to tarpit normal models. They should work a lot like daemonettes really

They need a real save against over watch. As it stands they could be 1 point each and it won't matter cause there never going to get into combat.

* Fix Wyches. For the love of all things holy. There are so many flaws with the unit it's unbelievable.
* Fix Hellions. It wouldn't take much.
* I wouldn't want much increase to our durability, but an increase to our offensive capacity might be nice.

Pure Wishlisting:
* Bring our special characters back!
* Redo Soulfright so that Fearlesss/ATSKNF isn't a complete shutdown for it. (Fearless models are immune, and ATSKNF models take half wounds or something. I'm not saying take away their bennies completely, but come on, a rule that doesn't work against half the armies in the game is just silly.)
* Dark Eldar Decurion. (Deldcurion?)

In a perfect world I could get an auxiliary formation that is just Mandrakes, with one of the sargeants becoming the Decapitator and works like genestealers with the broodlord becoming the Warlord with force multiplier abilities

The problem with Wyches is that their mechanics right now just doesn't work and all solutions are sub par.

Giving them an invul save would turn them into discount Harlequins, which is an issue since one would invalidate the other in most builds.

Turning wyches into vehicle hunters via Haywire Grenades instead makes them go against their fluff, which is suppose to be mainly against hordes and character fighting, not ambush tankbusters.

Giving them any sort of durability boost would then run into the issue of going against Wracks, who are suppose to be the "durable" troop-esque choice.

The only way I can see to change their mechanics around to fit fluff and not step on anyone's toes in the game is, like a lot of people said, give them some sort of Overwatch protection or Negation. I would also say that they should gain stealth or shroud. This, in the open, mechanically functions similar to the Harlequin's flip belts, but makes them better when going through terrain, gaining a much higher save. The only flaw to this plan is the abundance of "ignore cover" weapons all over the place and their low actual armor, since a lot of the "ignore cover" weapons compensate for having bad AP.

The trouble is, even if you give wyches overwatch protection in some form or other, they're still abysmal when they reach combat. Anyone scared of some S3 attacks?

 vipoid wrote:
The trouble is, even if you give wyches overwatch protection in some form or other, they're still abysmal when they reach combat. Anyone scared of some S3 attacks?

I think Poison + Rending would sort that out - pts as approrpiate

Make Blood Brides WS6 basic - fits with Succubus being WS8..........

 vipoid wrote:
The trouble is, even if you give wyches overwatch protection in some form or other, they're still abysmal when they reach combat. Anyone scared of some S3 attacks?

This is actually much more of a problem for me than overwatch is. I can get my wyches into combat pretty reliably. Sure, they feel overwatch a little more keenly than most, but outside of flamer walls, Tau, or Raveguard, overwatch usually isn't all that bad . The problem I've found with them is that, even with wych weapons, a charge bonus, and a decent drug roll, they just don't hit hard enough to bring an enemy down, but they also don't tarpit well enough to pin the enemy in place all that effectively. They're better once they also have furious charge, but they're still not great.

I often bring a hekatrix with an agoniser, haywire grenades, and sometimes a gun of some variety to the battlefield because she's one of those models that I"m especially attached to and whose occassional moments of glory demand that I put her in the game just to see what crazyness she pulls off next. She's actually reasonably effective at ganking guys in a challenge, hunting MCs, or slowly haywiring walkers to death while the wyches around her try to roll well on their dodge saves. The problem is that she's somethin like 50 points with her gear, and it's way too easy for my opponent to kill her with a flamer, vehicle explodes result, etc. before she even gets there.

Wyches are one of those units that could be fixed a thousand different ways. I just hope that someone actually does fix them in the next book. Which would be great. I mean, I find myself tempted to buy more wyches despite how crummy they are just because their fluff and models are that good!

@Mr. Morden:
Unfortunately, going from WS5 to WS 6 is one of the most useless stat increases. Going from 3 to 4 means you're hitting the WS3 guys on 3s, and the WS 4 guys now need 4s to hit you. Going from 4 to 5 is still pretty good because lots of things are WS4, and now you're hitting those guys on 3s. Going from WS 5 to 6, however, sort of stinks. You're still hitting 90% of things out there on 3s (same as when you were WS5), but nothing is hitting you on 5s yet. The only advantage really is against WS 5 guys (who are still hitting you on 4's, same as when you were WS 5). So you're hitting the elite melee guys on 3s, sure, but most elite melee units would rather not fight elite melee units. It's bloody and goes badly for everyone. Usually you'd rather shoot those guys to death while you're WS5/6 guys go bully something shooty.

Poison + Rending would certainly be effective, but I feel that steps on both wrack and lhamean toes. If we ever get Wych Faction Tactics (chapter tactics for wych cults), I'd love to see poisonou wyches as an option, and I really want our 5 point venom blades back, but making it a default thing, even for blood brides, just feels sort of redundant I like the idea someone posted of making blood brides pseudo-rend on a 5 though...

All good points - but I do think all three rules are quite fluffy

Blood Brides should be immensely skilled - the fact that the current WS chart is so poor and you can't hit on better than 3+ is a travesty but hey.............

Lelith is noted as being almost unique in not using poison on her blades as she is that good - so I think Poison is a good fit - same with Rending representing the ability for the Wych to find weak points. Could maybe get away with just rending - Genestealers used to be fun for this..........

Agree the 5+ pseudo rending would work well

How's this to changes to all Wych cult units.

For all Wych Cult units (Lelith, Succubus, Wychs, Bloodbrides, Hellions, Reavers and Beastmasters) to make them more reliable at getting into battle and cover they can have a permanent +3" to all movement, including run, charge and consolidate.

Swap out the effects of Hypex (+1 Initiative) and Splintermind (+1 Leadership) combat drugs to giving +3" movement (on top of the +3 they allready get) and Rage respectively with each unit with the Combat Drugs special rule getting to role on the table separatley.

For me with Wyches, I'd defintiely like to see them decrease in points to 8 each (in line with Kabalites), increased to WS5 and A2 base with rending on their blades. A squad of 10 will have 40 attacks on the charge and since most of their preffered targets will be general troops then they'll be hitting on 3's. Even if your wounding on 5's thats a pretty good chance of killing off a few models (by my maths thats about 4 rending wounds and 4 more saves to be taken). Wont wipe a squad in a single turn of combat but thats probably better, you want to kill your oponent on their turn and consolidate back towards the Raider to get the Wyches to their next victim. As for Wych Weapons, give them back their old profiles.

With Bloodbrides it would be WS6 (so that they can be more of a threat to other elite CC units should the need arise), A3 with Poison (4+) and rending on their blades, min squads of 3 or 4 (or give Venoms a max capacity of 6 instead) and they can all take Wych Weapons with the Syren having access to things like the Hellglaive or Archite Gliave as well. Might be seen as stepping on the toes of Wracks now with the poison but I've already said I'd want Wracks moved to Troops anyway.

Beastmasters should get an extra attack to the profile of all the creatures in the pack as well as the Beastmaster, max pack size of 20 and 5pt reductions to the cost of Clawd Fiends and Razorwing Flocks. Beastmaster Skyboard should get Jink as well.

Not sure Reavers really need any changes other than the general ones mention at the start, they're pretty awesome to begin with.

Hellion Skyboards gain Jink, Hellglaives are AP3 (4 if you think thats a bit much) and the old stunclaw special rules returned. Hellions should be A2 base with plasma grenades.

Succubus gets access to the clone field. Can confer her Combat Drug bonus onto units she joins, cheaper and more extensive weapon and wargear options.

Lelith gets base S4.





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I like those changes but might i suggest that Poison being a buyable upgrade for the normal Wyches? In addition, to represent their showmanship, maybe allow them to earn VPs if they completely wipe out an enemy squad via combat (and not a sweep)? This might give people incentive to have them go in for the slaughter since it opens up an alternative way of winning matches.

I like that, how about making poison a straight 15/20pt upgrade for the unit of Wych's or Bloodbrides, that way it can be confered to Wych weapons as well?

The VP's for wiping units would be cool but might be a bit much, like this Wych Cults would be very mobile and capable of scoring objectives quite easily and I've very deliberatly upped their ability to kill oponents in close combat so they would be easy VP's to score.

Somebody mentioned earlier in the thread changing the Power from Pain table to giving out benefits army wide for each enemy unit wiped out instead of at the start of each game turn. I like that idea as it's more fluffy than the current table and more effective than the old one and would be a great incentive for Wyches to get stuck in.

The alteration to Power from Pain should be something that's Wych-exclusive (tbh, the three branchs of DE should all have their own PfP, it would fit more thematically and they already sorta did it for the Haemonculus cult).

I would like to add that if Wyches gained the ability to farm VPs from killing people, they should lose the ability to cap objectives. Granted, this totally changes up the dynamic of the game, but Wyches weren't all that durable at holding objectives anyways and this would thematically fit their attention-hungry style.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The alteration to Power from Pain should be something that's Wych-exclusive (tbh, the three branchs of DE should all have their own PfP, it would fit more thematically and they already sorta did it for the Haemonculus cult).

Whilst I don't mind each DE brance having its own PfP table, surely they should all result from killing units? They should just derive different effects from it. e.g. the current DE PfP table is all about combat - what we need is one with stuff that benefits shooty units

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

I would like to add that if Wyches gained the ability to farm VPs from killing people, they should lose the ability to cap objectives. Granted, this totally changes up the dynamic of the game, but Wyches weren't all that durable at holding objectives anyways and this would thematically fit their attention-hungry style.

.

I think it might be better if wyches just didn't get VPs for killing units. Seems like it might be a bit too good.

Make it that succubi give you the VP for being in the squad that kills a unit. That way people have incentive go jam one in every hotde of wyches

Based on the conversation I had with Jes Goodwin at the 40K Open Day this is my thinking on the Dark Eldar as they stand now.

NB I don't endorse this in any way, it is simply what I took from my conversation with him.

Since Imperials have been given free rein to ally with one another that has left other races at a major disadvantage. Your Dark Eldar army could face an enemy with SM infantry and fliers with IG artillery and blobs for holding objectives a couple of assassins and some Ad Mech, etc.

Therefore an effort is being made to develop the other factions so they can have allies and pick'n'mix formations etc. Harlequins were lifted out of DE and Craftworld dexes for this reason. There will come an Exodite dex at some stage too.

Dark Eldar are now an Eldar sub-faction, same as Craftworld and Harlequins. They have relaxed the fluff to suggest all Eldar will work together at need andit's been built into the fluff more and more.

So try not to think of the DE dex as a standalone, think of it as part of an Eldar overarching faction, so you can have hard-wearing wracks and grotesques led by haemonculi, backed up with wraith units and fast moving Harlequins.

I asked him if the reason for the Harlequin dex going into a separate book was to allow allying for the Eldar and he pretty much confirmed it, he suggested this would be done with other factions too.

Again not my idea but that is how I think they expect it to pan out now.

Old DE codex fluff mentions pic capture optics that enterprising warriors used to sell pics and vide of pain. Perhaps a purchasable upgrade to give pfp to shooty. Say 10pts and gain ptp if you spray a unit off the board. And an explodes result on damage table. To represent the burning owes and poisons doing their thing

 Imateria wrote:
How's this to changes to all Wych cult units.

For all Wych Cult units (Lelith, Succubus, Wychs, Bloodbrides, Hellions, Reavers and Beastmasters) to make them more reliable at getting into battle and cover they can have a permanent +3" to all movement, including run, charge and consolidate.

Swap out the effects of Hypex (+1 Initiative) and Splintermind (+1 Leadership) combat drugs to giving +3" movement (on top of the +3 they allready get) and Rage respectively with each unit with the Combat Drugs special rule getting to role on the table separatley.

For me with Wyches, I'd defintiely like to see them decrease in points to 8 each (in line with Kabalites), increased to WS5 and A2 base with rending on their blades. A squad of 10 will have 40 attacks on the charge and since most of their preffered targets will be general troops then they'll be hitting on 3's. Even if your wounding on 5's thats a pretty good chance of killing off a few models (by my maths thats about 4 rending wounds and 4 more saves to be taken). Wont wipe a squad in a single turn of combat but thats probably better, you want to kill your oponent on their turn and consolidate back towards the Raider to get the Wyches to their next victim. As for Wych Weapons, give them back their old profiles.

With Bloodbrides it would be WS6 (so that they can be more of a threat to other elite CC units should the need arise), A3 with Poison (4+) and rending on their blades, min squads of 3 or 4 (or give Venoms a max capacity of 6 instead) and they can all take Wych Weapons with the Syren having access to things like the Hellglaive or Archite Gliave as well. Might be seen as stepping on the toes of Wracks now with the poison but I've already said I'd want Wracks moved to Troops anyway.

Beastmasters should get an extra attack to the profile of all the creatures in the pack as well as the Beastmaster, max pack size of 20 and 5pt reductions to the cost of Clawd Fiends and Razorwing Flocks. Beastmaster Skyboard should get Jink as well.

Not sure Reavers really need any changes other than the general ones mention at the start, they're pretty awesome to begin with.

Hellion Skyboards gain Jink, Hellglaives are AP3 (4 if you think thats a bit much) and the old stunclaw special rules returned. Hellions should be A2 base with plasma grenades.

Succubus gets access to the clone field. Can confer her Combat Drug bonus onto units she joins, cheaper and more extensive weapon and wargear options.

Lelith gets base S4.

Some neat ideas in there, but I feel a few of them might be pulling each other in the wrong directions.

Bonus movement would be neat, but it also makes wyches faster than daemonettes. Which isn't necessarily a problem but does make me squint at it uncertainly. Also, I don't really have trouble making charges with wyches. I have trouble doing anything worthwhile once I have charged. The bonus movement is neat and would feel nice as you use it ("Yeah, I totally just disembarked 9"), but I'm not sure it would actually make a huge difference for me. These rules would make wyches outside of transports much faster, but I'm not terribly inclined to run my wyches without transports.

Bonus movement drug is a neat idea, but see above about usually not really needing it. Isn't a Rage drug just a worse version of the +1 Attack drug? Rolling each unit separately (like we used to) is probably fine. It adds to book keeping, but it also gives you a more robust set of drugs to use in a battle. Maybe you're facing an enemy that just really calls for +1 strength or something, and now you have better odds of getting that drug. I'd be fine with this, though I'm not sure i would make a huge mechanical difference.

Giving wyches rending, higher WS, and more attacks are all cool. Lowering their points also has a strong argument. doing both at once feels sort of kitchen-sinky. With what you're proposing, we're looking at a roughly 100 point unit (assuming 10 wyches with some wych weapons) that can potentially move 12" a turn before charging with fleet and a +3" charge roll (averages something like a 23" reliable charge range or 29" if a transport is involved). This unit will get 40 attacks on the charge while also benefiting from whatever rules wych weapons have plus poison. This unit will hit most things in the game on 3s and may or may not be benefiting from Furious Charge (which means you're rerolling to-wound against T3 armies or wounding on 4s against non-gargantuan MCs). Also, they would have rending in this scenario. Or you can assume that you didn't get the mobility drugs meaning you hit even harder, or you can assume they don't have poisonous/wych weapons which drops them down to an 80 point unit. Wyches need a buff, but I'd say the buffs your proposing make them worth at least as many points as they cost now. If we make them better, let's make them better, but let's not also make them cheaper based on the fact that they weren't worth their points before the buffs we give them.

I'm not necessarily opposed to wyches having access to some amount of poison, but poison 3+ really does feel like it's stepping on wrack and lhamean toes. And is poison really *that* much of a wych thing? I'm sure some arenas use poisonous weapons, but wych weapons have never been poisonous in the past. Wyches have splinter pistols, but the only poison I remember brides or wyches ever having for melee weapons are agonisers and venom blades. And even those are only available to their characters. Why the big push for poison?

The beast changes are all probably fine. I'd personally be okay with them just giving Kkhymarae their 4++ back, maybe lowering the cost of razorwings by 5 points, and maybe make the clawed fiend have the ability to challenge things (so that its T5 can actually matter).

Hellions are tricky. If you give them jink, you potentially mitigate one of their minor strengths (half-decent shooting). Still, it would be a nice option to have, I agree. I think making their hell glaives better is a good move, but turning them into better power lances is probably a bit much. Maybe just +2 Strength on the turn they charge? That's strength 5 normally, Strength 6 if they roll the right drug, and Strength 7 if they roll the right drug and have Furious Charge. Agreed about being able to yoink guys out of combat again. I also have a whacky (probably too complicated) idea I like where the hellions are sort of like melee death marks. I can see them deepstriking immediately after an enemy unit arrives from reserves and then getting a chance to charge the new arrival immediately (with the actual fighting occurring in the fight sub-phase as normal). Like the hellions have been harassing them through the skies (like they do), and now they're getting up in the enemy's face before he has a chance to respond.

I'm not sure where you're going with the succubus changes. Wouldn't a clone field have basically no benefit for her? And what do you mean by conferring her drugs to her unit? Is this so that she can give drugs to non-wyches (not fluff-breaking but seems like it encourages less fluffy power combos like drugged up sslyth and incubi), or is it meant to basically just stack her drugs onto another drug using unit? Basically giving blood brides she hangs out with an extra drug.

As for getting VP from killing units, I think that would be a cool rule for a wych core detachment, especially if it was limited to units containing Succubi (and maybe Syrens?). Giving it to everyone makes it seem like it would be too easy to wrack up VP. Compare to the haemonculus formation with a similar rule. It's a potent rule on a very killy unit, but that unit also costs 500+ points. It's a neat idea that I'd like to see in a limited fashion. A succubus getting bonus points for showing off is fluffy. Getting VPs left and right for assaulting stuff (which you will be trying to do anyway) seems abusable.

Maybe give Wyches the ability to charge after running? This way they can either shoot with their pistols at a potential charge target, or get closer by running. Like the old Fleet.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Maybe give Wyches the ability to charge after running? This way they can either shoot with their pistols at a potential charge target, or get closer by running. Like the old Fleet.

Would be cool but doesn't really address their main problems of not doing enough when they reach combat and not being tarpitty enough to pin units down like they used to.

I kind of think all Wych Cult units should get some sort of constant invuln save to represent their lightning fast reflexes enabling them to dodge around shots (not just in CC). I also think that maybe giving Wyches rending on their base CC weapons might have some utility (to represent them slipping a blade through a vulnerable point in a target's armor.

After playing against some DE this past weekend, I think the one change they need to the most is to give Reavers fleet.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Maybe give Wyches the ability to charge after running? This way they can either shoot with their pistols at a potential charge target, or get closer by running. Like the old Fleet.

Would be cool but doesn't really address their main problems of not doing enough when they reach combat and not being tarpitty enough to pin units down like they used to.

I mean instead of the extra 3" and on top of Imateria's other upgrades.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
How's this to changes to all Wych cult units.

For all Wych Cult units (Lelith, Succubus, Wychs, Bloodbrides, Hellions, Reavers and Beastmasters) to make them more reliable at getting into battle and cover they can have a permanent +3" to all movement, including run, charge and consolidate.

Swap out the effects of Hypex (+1 Initiative) and Splintermind (+1 Leadership) combat drugs to giving +3" movement (on top of the +3 they allready get) and Rage respectively with each unit with the Combat Drugs special rule getting to role on the table separatley.

For me with Wyches, I'd defintiely like to see them decrease in points to 8 each (in line with Kabalites), increased to WS5 and A2 base with rending on their blades. A squad of 10 will have 40 attacks on the charge and since most of their preffered targets will be general troops then they'll be hitting on 3's. Even if your wounding on 5's thats a pretty good chance of killing off a few models (by my maths thats about 4 rending wounds and 4 more saves to be taken). Wont wipe a squad in a single turn of combat but thats probably better, you want to kill your oponent on their turn and consolidate back towards the Raider to get the Wyches to their next victim. As for Wych Weapons, give them back their old profiles.

With Bloodbrides it would be WS6 (so that they can be more of a threat to other elite CC units should the need arise), A3 with Poison (4+) and rending on their blades, min squads of 3 or 4 (or give Venoms a max capacity of 6 instead) and they can all take Wych Weapons with the Syren having access to things like the Hellglaive or Archite Gliave as well. Might be seen as stepping on the toes of Wracks now with the poison but I've already said I'd want Wracks moved to Troops anyway.

Beastmasters should get an extra attack to the profile of all the creatures in the pack as well as the Beastmaster, max pack size of 20 and 5pt reductions to the cost of Clawd Fiends and Razorwing Flocks. Beastmaster Skyboard should get Jink as well.

Not sure Reavers really need any changes other than the general ones mention at the start, they're pretty awesome to begin with.

Hellion Skyboards gain Jink, Hellglaives are AP3 (4 if you think thats a bit much) and the old stunclaw special rules returned. Hellions should be A2 base with plasma grenades.

Succubus gets access to the clone field. Can confer her Combat Drug bonus onto units she joins, cheaper and more extensive weapon and wargear options.

Lelith gets base S4.

Some neat ideas in there, but I feel a few of them might be pulling each other in the wrong directions.

Bonus movement would be neat, but it also makes wyches faster than daemonettes. Which isn't necessarily a problem but does make me squint at it uncertainly. Also, I don't really have trouble making charges with wyches. I have trouble doing anything worthwhile once I have charged. The bonus movement is neat and would feel nice as you use it ("Yeah, I totally just disembarked 9"), but I'm not sure it would actually make a huge difference for me. These rules would make wyches outside of transports much faster, but I'm not terribly inclined to run my wyches without transports.

It's a nice bonus to represent that they are very fast. I agree, running any DE non-Coven unit on foot is a death sentence for said unit, but late game we may not have any transports left and I've had several games where a foot unit has been stuck on the wrong side of the board and effectively out of the battle. Hardly a deal breaker but quite useful and we don't particularly like our tranpsorts getting too close to the enemy until we're ready to kill them anyway, and can you imagine the shock on your opponents face after a turn one charge starting at your board edge (6" move in vehicle, dissembark 9", charge 15" for a 30" move)! Maybe it's a bit much as is and instead a +3" to just movement and not the random distance moves instead.

Bonus movement drug is a neat idea, but see above about usually not really needing it. Isn't a Rage drug just a worse version of the +1 Attack drug? Rolling each unit separately (like we used to) is probably fine. It adds to book keeping, but it also gives you a more robust set of drugs to use in a battle. Maybe you're facing an enemy that just really calls for +1 strength or something, and now you have better odds of getting that drug. I'd be fine with this, though I'm not sure i would make a huge mechanical difference.

There's no denying that +1S and +1T are the most desirable drugs after all Space Marines are the most commonly played army so something that gets us on equal footing for giving or taking damage with them is going to be highly useful. Personally it's those two drugs I mentioned that I'm not a fan of, we should have WS5 to start with (they're supposed to be CC specialists but aren't any better than a regular Kabalite) so though +1WS can be useful it's annoying I have to rely on a random drug to get that advantage. With the advantage built in the drug is no longer needed. I've found the +1I to always be useless since I'm always going first, or at worst at the same time. Admitedly my suggestions for their replacements aren't so great either, I'm open to better ideas though.

Giving wyches rending, higher WS, and more attacks are all cool. Lowering their points also has a strong argument. doing both at once feels sort of kitchen-sinky. With what you're proposing, we're looking at a roughly 100 point unit (assuming 10 wyches with some wych weapons) that can potentially move 12" a turn before charging with fleet and a +3" charge roll (averages something like a 23" reliable charge range or 29" if a transport is involved). This unit will get 40 attacks on the charge while also benefiting from whatever rules wych weapons have plus poison. This unit will hit most things in the game on 3s and may or may not be benefiting from Furious Charge (which means you're rerolling to-wound against T3 armies or wounding on 4s against non-gargantuan MCs). Also, they would have rending in this scenario. Or you can assume that you didn't get the mobility drugs meaning you hit even harder, or you can assume they don't have poisonous/wych weapons which drops them down to an 80 point unit. Wyches need a buff, but I'd say the buffs your proposing make them worth at least as many points as they cost now. If we make them better, let's make them better, but let's not also make them cheaper based on the fact that they weren't worth their points before the buffs we give them.

I'm not necessarily opposed to wyches having access to some amount of poison, but poison 3+ really does feel like it's stepping on wrack and lhamean toes. And is poison really *that* much of a wych thing? I'm sure some arenas use poisonous weapons, but wych weapons have never been poisonous in the past. Wyches have splinter pistols, but the only poison I remember brides or wyches ever having for melee weapons are agonisers and venom blades. And even those are only available to their characters. Why the big push for poison?

Agreed on the points, I was thinking that they're currently overcosted for what they do but given the buffs already mentioned (+1WS and A, better Wych Weapons, availability of poison) it makes sense to leave them at their current cost. As for poison, my push for Poison 4+ (not 3+, that would be a bit much) is it's simply a mechanic that lets us wound on 4's instead of 5's. Given that the standard weapon has no AP our ability to kill things will be dependent on the amount of saves we can force, rending aside, and in the army best known for fielding poison up the wazoo it's a fluffy 15 or 20pt upgrade for a Wych unit (poison seems like a good way for Wyches to inflict extra pain on their victims in the arena, which they have to do since they feed off that pain).

Frankly I'm not sure of what purpose the Wracks serve other than to be the basic troops of the Covens, though they have the misfortune to be lumped into the Elite slot where they're outclassed by almost all other options (which is worse, Bloodbrides or Wracks?). At present the only reason I'd ever run Wracks is for a Scalpal Squadron, and I'd be relying on the 2 Venoms then a lot more than I would be the Wracks. As for stepping on the Lhamaens toes, not really, she's still Poison 2+ with the Venom blade and who fields squads of Lhamaens anyway? I find her to be a more fluffy and mildly useful unit than anythink else.

The beast changes are all probably fine. I'd personally be okay with them just giving Kkhymarae their 4++ back, maybe lowering the cost of razorwings by 5 points, and maybe make the clawed fiend have the ability to challenge things (so that its T5 can actually matter).

Khymerae are supposed to be daemons so their 5++ makes sense, I laready said to lower Razorwings by 5pts and you can run a squad of just Clawed Fiends if you want but I do like the idea of allowign them to challenge.

Hellions are tricky. If you give them jink, you potentially mitigate one of their minor strengths (half-decent shooting). Still, it would be a nice option to have, I agree. I think making their hell glaives better is a good move, but turning them into better power lances is probably a bit much. Maybe just +2 Strength on the turn they charge? That's strength 5 normally, Strength 6 if they roll the right drug, and Strength 7 if they roll the right drug and have Furious Charge. Agreed about being able to yoink guys out of combat again. I also have a whacky (probably too complicated) idea I like where the hellions are sort of like melee death marks. I can see them deepstriking immediately after an enemy unit arrives from reserves and then getting a chance to charge the new arrival immediately (with the actual fighting occurring in the fight sub-phase as normal). Like the hellions have been harassing them through the skies (like they do), and now they're getting up in the enemy's face before he has a chance to respond.

I think jink is necassary to keep them alive, with a 5+ armour save you dont really want to be risking dangerous terrain tests so they won't be getting much cover. I'd be very happy to trade their small amount of extra shooting for a much better chance to survive long enought to get into combat. So with the Hellglaive, how about a +2/+1, AP4 profile so they're S5 on the charge S4 normally and since they already have Hit and Run could prove to be very dangerous. Personally I'm not sure about the Deep Strike part, I've always envisioned them as flying over the battlefield towards their targets, dodging fire and lopping off limbs as they scream past.

I'm not sure where you're going with the succubus changes. Wouldn't a clone field have basically no benefit for her? And what do you mean by conferring her drugs to her unit? Is this so that she can give drugs to non-wyches (not fluff-breaking but seems like it encourages less fluffy power combos like drugged up sslyth and incubi), or is it meant to basically just stack her drugs onto another drug using unit? Basically giving blood brides she hangs out with an extra drug.

At present dodge only conveys a 4++ in close combat. The only times a Succubus has died on me is either in combat with a Demon Prince or Blood Thirster, or due to shooting. It would be nice to mitigate the chances of the latter happening and having 2 invulns isn't that strange, an Archon can have 3 at the same time with the Shadow Field, Clone Field and Armour of Misery. Maybe a new piece of wargear that only takes affect when shot at is needed. The biggest complaints people seem to have with our HQ's is a lack of starting wargear, of optiones and a lack of ability to buff other units. The ability to convey her combat drug boost to a unit that she joins was an attempt to deal with the lack of army buffs. Maybe make it so that those buffs only apply to other Wych units or come up with something else entirely. Actually, I'd also like to make the Archite Glaive +2S as well (same goes for the Incubi Klaive), and we can give her the option of a Beastmaster Skyboard (which would give her the beast unit type), Hellion Skyboard or a Reaver Jetbike but not Scourge wings as she wouldn't really fit in with the rest of the Wych units with them.

As for getting VP from killing units, I think that would be a cool rule for a wych core detachment, especially if it was limited to units containing Succubi (and maybe Syrens?). Giving it to everyone makes it seem like it would be too easy to wrack up VP. Compare to the haemonculus formation with a similar rule. It's a potent rule on a very killy unit, but that unit also costs 500+ points. It's a neat idea that I'd like to see in a limited fashion. A succubus getting bonus points for showing off is fluffy. Getting VPs left and right for assaulting stuff (which you will be trying to do anyway) seems abusable.

That change I quite like.

It's a shame I play all my games in a GW store, I'll never get a chance to try out these changes.

Give wyches assault grenades, rending and allow for dodge to work in the whole assault phase, not just the fight sub phase.

Take away the "ignored by ATSKNF" from everything that has it.

Allow a character to take multiple relics like every other faction in the game.

Make their flyers the stealthy jets they're supposed to be.

Make their FOC give them improvements to their cover saves instead of a standard cover save which they'll probably already have.

I hate the concept of ATSKNF. It's basically "fearless, but without the drawbacks" to me and it's proliferation means that a lot of the psychology-based rules are basically rendered moot in most games (4/5ths of the armies I've faced were either Space Marines or had straight up Fearless most of the time).

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Give them a version of the banshee mask.

This.
The ability to ignore overwatch is huge. Let's say unit X can ignore overwatch. You assault with unit X first, and then with units Y and Z.
Assuming unit X got into base to base, you can save your other units from shooting.

 Galef wrote:
WHY CAN"T ARCHONS TAKE JETBIKES???????

Edit : This has been the case since the codex release of 2010.

the_scotsman wrote:
DE will never be fixed as long as stats like I and WS are priced the same as stats like T and BS, when they hold immensely lower value (which is actively lowered by your opponents models)

Why don't Eldar have this problem? Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks have a T3, but are considered amazing units. The problem is they are other advantages that make them worthwhile. The solution is not to make DE marines, but instead to make them still worthwhile.

blaktoof wrote:
Hellions- Skyboard should be a jetbike, not a jump pack.

Sadly, I've been using these as 'counts as' Eldar Shining Spears. The hellions are amazing models.
The DE have such beautiful models with such horrible rules that make you never bring them. I've also been using mandrakes as my seer council for the same reason.

My Solution
Give all Dark Eldar units (Not Wracks) the ability to lower the BS and WS of any unit attacking them by 2. Be it an 'aura of fear' or 'supernatural reflexes'.
This means that DE would be more effective against their desired prey -- weaker units they can drag into the webway, but less effective against elite units. IE would be hitting them on 6s, where marines would be hitting them on 5s.

The in game effect is shown below. Lets say 10 bolter shots are shooting at wytches in the open. Normally they have a 2/3 (hit) * 2/3 (wound) or 4/9 chance to kill. This means 20 bolter shots will kill ~8.8 DE. This changes them to losing 1/3 (hit) * 2/3 (wound) or 2/9 chances to kill -- resulting in half the dead DE, or ~4.44.
Compared to a marine 2/3 (hit) * 1/2 (wound) * (1/3) failed save = 1/9 chance to kill.

This would give DE half the durability of marines in the open instead of 1/4 the durability. It would give the DE something cool and unique, and would also increase their ability in assault by lowering the chance for enemy models to hit and increasing their ability to hit. It also goes along with the DE theme by weakening other armies statlines -- as we see today by lowering leadership.

I suggest this instead of extra firepower and speed because the DE already have this. Sure, they need to tweak some garbage units, but venom spam can still crank out a huge amount of shots. Increasing the damage output without increasing the durability will not help the army keep from getting tabled. This slight change will help keep the DE alive for another turn to deal damage back in return.

@Imateria: All good points, and I don't really have much else to say. I agree with you on wych drugs and find myself growing to like a d3 chart of more potent drugs rather than a d6 chart more and more. There has almost always been at least one drug on the chart that you never want to roll, and I wonder if that's a result of wyches not really needing 6 different options. Maybe they just need to be strong and tough or to get bonus attacks with the ability to add one to their dodge save or something that manipulates PFP.

Regarding khymarae, I know that the 5++ inkeeping with their daemonic nature. That said, khymarae were clearly meant to be your cheap wound absorbers in the last book, and they struggle a bit with that job now (though hiding in cover helps). To me, khymarae go up front to eat wounds, razorwings do most of the damage, and clawed fiends are there to pack a punch when you need something a little strong than razorwings. But that's just my take on it. It would be cool to give the beast masters more fluffy wargear options. They're dark eldar who hallucinate their souls into going on spirit quests so that they can tame their nightmare realm pokemon. This is awesome, and I want more of it.

Edit: Also, the Fantasy Flight RPGs totally have khymarae phasing through walls like Shadowcat. So a 4++ sort of makes sense if you think of it as their "thing" rather than just being from standard daemonic resillience.

@MechaEmperor7000:
I actually think ATSKNF is a pretty fluffy rule that's useful without necessarily being OP. It's just the fact that marines are so common that makes it problematic. If marine armies were as rare as tyranid armies, morale checks and soul fright weapons would be fun, useful things. Running into the odd marine army and seeing that they can negate such rules would stink quite so much because you know you're likely to benefit from soul fright in the next several games you play. It's just that marines are going to be your opponent at least half the time, and that means soul fright and similar rules are going to be useless half the time.

@Labmouse42:
I know wyches suffer from overwatch more than most due to their relatively high cost and low durability, but I never find myself going, "overwatch is the reason my wyches aren't winning this combat." With the exception of flamer-heavy squads or odd ducks like tau and dark angels, you're probably looking at losing a wych or two to overwatch assuming cover and Feel No Pain aren't cooperating. That stinks, but those two girls combined were only going to kill about one ork boy on average. Letting them have their dodge save in the charge sub-phase would be reasonable, I think.

Agreed on making our units useful and unique rather than copying others. I know eldar get a lot of flack right now for being OP, but I actually really love how 90% of the codex is put together. Scorpions, hawks, and spiders might be a little too good for their costs, but they all do their jobs in interesting, fluffy, effective ways. I'd kind of like all books to be like that (sans the obvious problem areas like scat bikes or the low cost of wraith knights).

Regarding dark eldar on jetbikes, I'm afraid I must call grox droppings, my good sir or madame. In the first dark eldar codex, our HQs could take bikes, hellion boards, or (if I remember correctly) even scourge wings! They lost those options in the 5th edition book, and I will be a happy dark kin when my scourge-wined-archon or haemonculus on jetbike can be a reality again. Also, dark eldar have never really been a foot army. You could take warrior squads in the first codex that could double up on heavy weapons at the cost of losing access to a transport, but pretty much everyone just stuck everything in a gun boat because it was more fun and effective. Same with 5th edition. You could kind of work your way around taking lots of transports with a webway portal, but you usually did that by sticking a haemonculus in a raider along with a sizable chunk of the rest of your army.

I'm afraid I'm not a fan of the aura of fear thing. If daemons, night bringers, and tyranids don't scare the snot out of an imperial guardsman to the point of hurting his aim, I don't feel our pointy space elves are sufficiently scary to do so. I mean, they're scary, sure, but not more scary than a daemon. Something along those lines would be a cool "faction tactic" for that kabal that specializes in fear though.

While I'm open to alternatives to "extra firepower and speed," I also feel that the right kinds of firepower and speed are also perfectly valid solution to the dark kins' problems. Being able to move-shoot-move the way eldar and tau can would be both fluffy and helpful for our dark eldar who could proceed to wear down the enemy before committing to a bolder strike. A gun that's better at popping vehicles and MCs than the current incarnation of the dark lance would let us take the teeth off an enemy at a range the way we used to. Applied cruelty and shameless trickery are both fluffy and valid things that I'd love for the dark kin to have more of, but so are firepower and mobility.

Taffy17 wrote:
Give wyches assault grenades, rending and allow for dodge to work in the whole assault phase, not just the fight sub phase.

I take it you missed the part in the BRB where plasma grenades act as assault grenades, and Wyches have them already.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Regarding dark eldar on jetbikes, I'm afraid I must call grox droppings, my good sir or madame. In the first dark eldar codex, our HQs could take bikes, hellion boards, or (if I remember correctly) even scourge wings!

Doh!
They could take skyboards for 15 points and a jetbike for 35. I did not see an option for scourge wings.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm afraid I'm not a fan of the aura of fear thing. If daemons, night bringers, and tyranids don't scare the snot out of an imperial guardsman to the point of hurting his aim, I don't feel our pointy space elves are sufficiently scary to do so. I mean, they're scary, sure, but not more scary than a daemon. Something along those lines would be a cool "faction tactic" for that kabal that specializes in fear though.

While I'm open to alternatives to "extra firepower and speed," I also feel that the right kinds of firepower and speed are also perfectly valid solution to the dark kins' problems. Being able to move-shoot-move the way eldar and tau can would be both fluffy and helpful for our dark eldar who could proceed to wear down the enemy before committing to a bolder strike. A gun that's better at popping vehicles and MCs than the current incarnation of the dark lance would let us take the teeth off an enemy at a range the way we used to. Applied cruelty and shameless trickery are both fluffy and valid things that I'd love for the dark kin to have more of, but so are firepower and mobility.

You could describe it as 'super reflexes' or something akin to that instead of horror. You could also say they use special devices that weaken the nureal connections of those near them. The justification does not matter -- it's the game effect that does.

Edit : The craftworld eldar can run and shoot. The harlequins can run and assault. The dark eldar need another mechanic that's unique to them. I don't think that copying battle focus is the way to go. Giving them a 'run in assault phase' would just be a weaker version of 'battle focus'. That is why I am thinking out of the box for ideas.

I still like the whole 'debuff' idea. Lowering the WS / BS / S / T / Ld / AV / Saves of the enemy models would be very thematic for the DE, in addition to giving them something that is unique to the army. The trick, of course, is that any jinking of those traits can have mass effects on the game. Remember who broken psybolt ammo was in the old GK codex? Much playtesting would be required, but I think it could be really cool.

Something of a random note, but I'd quite like a customisable Mandrake HQ for DE.

I am of course entirely unbiased.

Didn't they have a Mandrake special character before lopping his entry off?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Didn't they have a Mandrake special character before lopping his entry off?

I was actually thinking more in terms of a non-SC Mandrake HQ. But to answer your question: yes they did - Kheradruakh . He was generally considered the worst HQ in the game. Possibly the worst unit in the game.

Basically a T3 character with just a 5++ for protection (no EW), who couldn't join squads. He also had the Lictor deployment method - i.e. when he arrived from reserve he could be placed anywhere on the table... but couldn't actually assault. You'll notice that this is not likely to improve the survival rating of a T3 model who needs to be in melee to do anything. You could maybe put him behind cover or something and hope to assault something next turn, but you're really hoping that nothing can see him even after moving. Plus, since he only has a 6" move, all your opponent has to do is move away.

In melee he was okay but nothing amazing. WS6 I6, 5 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge (I think he caused ID on 6s). It doesn't seem too bad... until you remember that combat is literally all he has. Also bear in mind that this guy is suppose to hunt characters. Yeah, good luck with that.

The thing he, he could still have been tolerable. I mean, if he cost about 50-60pts, say, then he might be fun as a throwaway HQ (like a, crappy melee version of Marbo). Did I mention that he cost 140pts? Because he cost 140pts. As an idea, a 5th edition Archon with Huskblade, Shadowfield and Soul Trap was only 135pts. He had better WS and I, more attacks, could join units, had a 2++ save and, whilst he was only S3, his weapon caused ID at all times and (thanks to Soul Trap) he'd double his strength if he killed a MC or IC.

Oh, and in 6th edition, GW decided that Kheradruakh was somehow still OP - so they nerfed his sword to AP3. Presumably a SM HQ with a 2+ save had once died to him, after the SM player suffered a brain haemorrhage half way through the game and forgot what tactics were. Now that SM HQ is safe again.

EDIT: Almost forgot - because Mandrakes love attacking from hiding, Kheradruakh obviously had no assault grenades whatsoever. So, the greatest DE assassin could be outwitted by a bush. Come to the dark side - we have pillocks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Didn't they have a Mandrake special character before lopping his entry off?

pun-y.

Yes the decapitator, who has had rules since the first full codex until this edition- but never a model.

Some more thoughts on this:

Wych cult.

Combat drugs:
1- +1S
2- +1A
3- +1 I, +3" movement for assault distances. This bonus stacks with other movement bonuses.
4- FnP 6+, or +1 to FnP rolls
5- Zealot
6- +1 to Invulnerable saves

Roll once for all models in the army with Combat drugs.

Wych Cult Raiders- 1+ Core choices, 1+ Aux choices

Brutal Display: Any time an unit from this detachment with the combat drugs special rule removes from play another unit in the assault phase by any means, all enemy units within 12" of the destroyed unit must make a LD test, Units which fail count as moving in difficult terrain during their following turn and can only make snapshots- models with fearless(but not ATSKNF) ignore this rule. All units in this detachment count the turn as being 1 higher than normal for PfP regardless of which PfP table they use.

Blood on the Stage: All units from this detachment can count the turn as 1 higher for their respective PfP table.

Core Choice: Commorrgah - 1 Succubus, 2 Squads of wyches, 1 squad of bloodbrides, 1 squad of beastmasters or 1 squad of reavers.
All units from this formation gain the following special rule:
Deadly Dance: Only usable if all models in the unit have this rule- at the end of any round of combat where the enemy unit lost, but did not fallback- the unit with this special rule may move all of their engaged models up to d6" in any direction. At least one model must remain engaged with the enemy unit, although they may be moved to be engaged with other models in the unit. For each model with this special rule still engaged roll a d6, on a 4+ the enemy model suffers a S3 hit with the rending USR as the wyches flip and pirouette around their enemies, slicing open a throat here and piercing a heart there. No other special rules from any source may be applied to these attacks. The enemy unit does not have to test for morale from these attacks, if the engaged enemy units are destroyed by these attacks the units that were engaged with them may consolidate afterwards.

Wyches-
Same stats, same cost. Squad Size 5-20
Can take dodge save versus overwatch

under 10 models = 1 special weapon
10 models = 3 special weapons
15 models = 5 special weapons

Wych weapons-
Hydraknives- Hydraknives give the model 3+d3 attacks base. Attacks made with these weapons have the shred USR (5 pts per model)
Razorflails- Rending, ignores shields. Any saving throw, or bonus to a saving throw, granted by an item that is described as a shield, or with the word shield in its name, cannot benefit models hit by this weapon (5pts per model)
Shardnet, Impaler- all enemy models in b2b with a model that has a shardnet have -1A. If an enemy model is in b2b with multiple shardnets in addition to -1A they lose -1A regardless of the amount of shardnets they are in B2B with. Models attacking with an Impaler have their attacks set to 1 when they strike in melee. Impaler strikes are resolved with the following profile: S+1, with the armorbane special rule. (5pts)

Hekatrix-
May replace ccwpn with venom blade: 5pts
May replace ccwpn with Agoniser:15pts
May take Hex Javelins- range 12" Fleshbane, models wounded by a Hex-Javelin must further pass a T test or be removed from play with no saves of any kind:5pts Assault 1 (5pts)
May take any of the above wych special weapons, does not count towards limit for units special weapons.



Bloodbrides-
Same stats
Squad Size- 3-10

Weapon Options:

If the unit numbers less than 10 Up to 3 models may replace their weapons as follows:
If the unit numbers 10 up to 5 models may replace their weapons as follows:

Hydraknives- Hydraknives give the model +3 instead of +1 for striking with two ccwpns. Attacks made with these weapons have the shred USR (5 pts per model)
Razorflails- Rending, ignores shields. Any saving throw, or bonus to a saving throw, granted by an item that is described as a shield, or with the word shield in its name, cannot benefit models hit by this weapon (5pts per model)
Shardnet, Impaler- all enemy models in b2b with a model that has a shardnet have -1A. If an enemy model is in b2b with multiple shardnets in addition to -1A they lose -1A regardless of the amount of shardnets they are in B2B with. Models attacking with an Impaler have their attacks set to 1 when they strike in melee. Impaler strikes are resolved with the following profile: S+1, with the armorbane special rule. (5pts)
May take Hex Javelins- range 12" Fleshbane, models wounded by a Hex-Javelin must further pass a T test or be removed from play with no saves of any kind:5pts Assault 1 (5pts)
May replace ccwpn with venom blade- 5pts

Special rules:
5++ Dodge save when not in assault, 4++ save when in assault or during overwatch

Syren:
May take an archite glaive
Has same options as above, but does not affect weapon options rest of unit can take. I.e. 10 bloodbrides, 1 is a syren, the bloodbrides can take up to 5 weapon options, and the syren can still take her weapon options

Special rules:
Has Crusader USR, grants it to any unit she is a model in.

Succubus:
Planned performance: An army that contains a succubus may pick one combat drug option, in addition to the option that was rolled for.
Succubus have a 3++ save in assault and for overwatch and a 4+ save at all other times
Access to wych cult on relics
Access to wych cult weapon options

Relics-
Syrens mask: Syren only. Any unit firing overwatch within 12" of the syren must re-roll all successful to hit rolls. Weapons which automatically hit generate 1 fewer hits down to a minimum of 1. (5pts)

Blades of Stryfe: Twin blades used in rare gladiatorial shows, When attacking with these weapons a model uses the following profile: S+1, Armorbane, Shred, a model equipped with these weapons gains +3 bonus attacks when striking during initiative order (25pts)

Drug dispenser: A rare device which is capable of monitoring the users vitals and applying various combat enhancing drugs to the users system. A model with this item may pick one of the following options at the start of each assault phase(including the enemy assault phase) before any other actions take place:
1- 'Bloodwrack'+2S
2- 'Redrum'+2A
3- 'Wraithblood'+1T, +1 to FnP rolls (cannot make FnP roll better than 2+)
4- 'Hypex'-Re-roll dodge saves
5- 'Blitz'- double assault distance after all modifiers
6- Overload- Pick any three of the above, must pick three.

For each drug injected by the drug dispenser roll a d6, On the roll of a 6 the model takes a wound with no saves of any kind allowed. If the model suffers more than its current wounds from this device it explodes, dealing a S4 AP- hit to all models within 6" i.e. if a model has 1 wound left and suffers 2 wounds it explodes, if it suffers 1 wound it simply dies. (10pts)

Mirror Field: Creates Holographic clones of the wearer, based on memory of previous actions they move nearby the wearer but make different movements that is has stored in memory. Roll a d6 for each hit the wearer suffers, on the roll of 5,6 they hit the wearer, on a 1 to 4 they hit a mirror image. Holographic clones are easily discernible up close, any attacks that hit during the assault phase bypass the roll and hit the wearer. Wearer may not benefit from any other fields, items described as fields, or with field in their name. (20pts)

Glaive of Infinite Woe: Model cannot benefit from an additional weapon when striking with this weapon. Fleshbane, Armorbane. Phase thrust: Model makes a single attack, using their WS and any bonuses or re-rolls to hit they may have. If the attack hits it causes D3+1 wounds or HPs with no saves of any kind allowed. (40pts)

Totally late to the party

HQs get more options (jetbike, skyboard, etc) if nothing else give these to the Succubus and Archon

The Archon needs more utility or better gear or both. Right now mine is mostly used just because the Shadowfield makes him more survivable than the Succubus and the Haemy. He's not terrible in CC nor does he excel at it. A bonus to sieze the initiative would be fitting and fluffy.

Clonefield for the Haemy and more buffing potential outside of the Coven Supplement

Succubus gets a 3++ invun in CC or a reroll on the 4++ The first wound she takes is usually all it takes to kill her.

A new member to the Court of the Archon, a Null that disrupts enemy psykers maybe?

The Huskblade could be fleshbane ap 3 instant death or ap 2

Agonizer drops to 20 points, it's badly overcosted presently

Soulfright weaponry gets a buff and becomes useful against ATSKNF. Leadership shenanigans are neat and fit nicely with our army to bad we can't bring psychic shriek without allies.

Fleshbane on more weapons in general would be nice

Incubi get grenades. The models are amazing, I would love to bring them without them being a liability

More weapons or special ammo (fleshbane?) for Trueborn + option to ghostplate for cheap or free. Heatlances would be welcomed here too.

Bloodbrides can take power weapons or agonizers or rework wych weapons to have more use. Same with combat drugs.

Ravagers can be taken as squads

Cronos should be able to be in squads with Talos and/or get a larger AoE for their +FnP

Coven Monsterous (or GMC) creature. It needs a high I value, good CC and needs to be able to move fast across the board. Bonus if it gets some sort of psychic protection or causes perils to those around it. Call it psychic torment or some such. Give this to the Cronos as well.

Wyches need some sort of overwatch protection (5++ to overwatch) and either posioned melee hits (3+ would be nice) or rending..give me a reason to take them please

Vector Dancer for the RWJF

Free or cheaper missles for the Voidraven or more bombs also make the bomb STR D

Shredder becoming a template would be cool

Disintgrator becomes s6 (we really lack mid strength multi-purpose shooting)

Vect and/or Coven GMC

Some strength D weapons (the dark gate)

Void Lances on something else

More options to twin link. Pure DE lack psychic bonuses but, our gear doesn't really help. I'm so so so tired of missing single shot lances from Raiders I don't even take them other than a gunboat full of warriors. Not to say that those single shots haven't been effective but, I never count on them.

Items could use some work as well. Can the Djnn Blade be removed? Could we get something reasonable here?

Finally, a daecurion style detachment that allows transports to move flat out and still fire 1 weapon

Edit: Forgot something. If GW would release a box of Grotesques or Court of the Archon it would be nice as right now thats a hole in the model line that would sell well as both units got buffed in the last book

 vipoid wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Didn't they have a Mandrake special character before lopping his entry off?

I was actually thinking more in terms of a non-SC Mandrake HQ. But to answer your question: yes they did - Kheradruakh . He was generally considered the worst HQ in the game. Possibly the worst unit in the game.

Basically a T3 character with just a 5++ for protection (no EW), who couldn't join squads. He also had the Lictor deployment method - i.e. when he arrived from reserve he could be placed anywhere on the table... but couldn't actually assault. You'll notice that this is not likely to improve the survival rating of a T3 model who needs to be in melee to do anything. You could maybe put him behind cover or something and hope to assault something next turn, but you're really hoping that nothing can see him even after moving. Plus, since he only has a 6" move, all your opponent has to do is move away.

In melee he was okay but nothing amazing. WS6 I6, 5 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge (I think he caused ID on 6s). It doesn't seem too bad... until you remember that combat is literally all he has. Also bear in mind that this guy is suppose to hunt characters. Yeah, good luck with that.

The thing he, he could still have been tolerable. I mean, if he cost about 50-60pts, say, then he might be fun as a throwaway HQ (like a, crappy melee version of Marbo). Did I mention that he cost 140pts? Because he cost 140pts. As an idea, a 5th edition Archon with Huskblade, Shadowfield and Soul Trap was only 135pts. He had better WS and I, more attacks, could join units, had a 2++ save and, whilst he was only S3, his weapon caused ID at all times and (thanks to Soul Trap) he'd double his strength if he killed a MC or IC.

Oh, and in 6th edition, GW decided that Kheradruakh was somehow still OP - so they nerfed his sword to AP3. Presumably a SM HQ with a 2+ save had once died to him, after the SM player suffered a brain haemorrhage half way through the game and forgot what tactics were. Now that SM HQ is safe again.

EDIT: Almost forgot - because Mandrakes love attacking from hiding, Kheradruakh obviously had no assault grenades whatsoever. So, the greatest DE assassin could be outwitted by a bush. Come to the dark side - we have pillocks.

I wanna challenge the "worst unit ever" claim by reminding you that 4th edition Chaos-whatzits existed, the Pyrovore was the new thing, and Tau still had to deal with Space Pope causing mass heartbreaks when he died.

Also, back on topic, I kinda wish they'd return the Dracon as a low-tier Cabal HQ choice.

EDIT: Another thing, but really shooting high for the stars here: I wish they'd make it so that fielding "pure" armies are viable. Like pure wych cult armies, pure kabalite and pure Haemonculus cult. What would kill me would be if they ended up doing the Chaos Daemon to it (namely, each aspect fulfilled one niche and one niche only, with just the bare minimum for the other roles if you want to go "mono")

As mentioned previously, the Archon really does need a force multiplier effect since the Succubus should cover the expertise in CC. Having the effects of the Labyrinthine Cunning Warlord Trait built in as a special rule would fit pretty well given that any Archon worth his spiky boots would be meticulous in planning and scheming to make their way to the top.

Speaking of Warlord Traits, they're arguably one of the worst sets in the game right now alongside Nids and CSM.

Ancient Evil should have all enemy units within 12" of the Warlord suffer a -2 Ld penalty to their units while also gaining fear for him and his accompanying unit.

Labyrinthine Cunning should be renamed Paranoid Planner, which allows him to redeploy up to three units anywhere within your deployment zone after both players have deployed both their armies as well as scouts/infiltrators. However, the unit the Archon is in may never use his Leadership for Morale or Pinning tests. This way it reflects the Warlords' aptness for contingency plans while also showing his inability to trust anyone.

Soulthirst should allow the Archon and his unit to gain 3" to all run and charge moves in addition to the rage special rule to show their eagerness to get into combat to slake their thirst.

Hatred Eternal should change into giving the Warlord and his unit Preferred Enemy (Everything!). Should the Warlord or his unit suffer a wound during the game, they immediately gain Hatred. Sort of reflects how they get enraged by the impertinence of their foes hurting them somehow.

Blood Dancer is changed to the Warlord gaining an extra attack for every point of WS that he has over his opponents'. Only use the WS of the character he is engaged with if the Warlord is in a challenge, otherwise use the majority WS for units with mixed WS values. I know it kind of stomps over Lucius' toes as SC but he gets it guaranteed and it is fluffy given that he did duel in Comorragh back when he visited it with Fabius Bile.

Towering Arrogance should be changed to allowing all friendly Dark Eldar units within 12" of him to choose to fail or pass Morale checks automatically.

Incubi should have tormenter fields as their gear, kinda weird they don't have some sort of analogue to the Striking Scorpions mandiblasters. It allows them to attack at initiative when charging into difficult terrain and make opponents re-roll successful to hit rolls of 6 on that turn.

Demi-klaives should be what they were before and be +1S AP2 base with an extra attack when dual-wielded and +2 S AP2 two-handed when clasped.

Agonizers should be AP2. Huskblades get to be AP3 with fleshbane and instant death so one isn't too much better than the other.

Electrocorrosive whips wound on a 4+ again while also halving the strength and attack of those it wounds.

People have covered a lot on some of the other units and weapons so I'll just cover the relics.

Animus Vitae should be a S6 AP2 blast that ignores cover for a one shot wonder. 15 points.

The Archangel of Pain should affect both Fearless and ATSKNF units, make the range 18" instead. 20 points.

Armour of Misery isn't bad, but if it was a 3+ instead (to make it better than ghostplate at the very least) it would make it more attractive to an Archon. Same points as in the codex.

The Djin Blade allows the wielder to re-roll all failed rolls to hit and wound but the bearer suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed for every roll of a 1 to hit or wound. Make it +1S and AP2 as well and you've got something. About 20 points.

Helm of Spite is about right. Lower it down to 15 points and its okay if situational.

The Parasite's kiss should be AP3, with a 10-15 points cost.

I'd swap that round - make Agaoniser Fleshbane and AP3 (probably still drop their cost to 20pts), and make the Huskblade AP2. Could also give it Shred or something.

I'd like to see the Soul Trap work outside of challenges. And work for wounds caused by ID. And on MCs again.