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Which is a problem. They need to be useful in CC, or cheap enough that they can soak wounds long enough to tarpit normal models. They should work a lot like daemonettes really

They need a real save against over watch. As it stands they could be 1 point each and it won't matter cause there never going to get into combat.

* Fix Wyches. For the love of all things holy. There are so many flaws with the unit it's unbelievable.
* Fix Hellions. It wouldn't take much.
* I wouldn't want much increase to our durability, but an increase to our offensive capacity might be nice.

Pure Wishlisting:
* Bring our special characters back!
* Redo Soulfright so that Fearlesss/ATSKNF isn't a complete shutdown for it. (Fearless models are immune, and ATSKNF models take half wounds or something. I'm not saying take away their bennies completely, but come on, a rule that doesn't work against half the armies in the game is just silly.)
* Dark Eldar Decurion. (Deldcurion?)

In a perfect world I could get an auxiliary formation that is just Mandrakes, with one of the sargeants becoming the Decapitator and works like genestealers with the broodlord becoming the Warlord with force multiplier abilities

The problem with Wyches is that their mechanics right now just doesn't work and all solutions are sub par.

Giving them an invul save would turn them into discount Harlequins, which is an issue since one would invalidate the other in most builds.

Turning wyches into vehicle hunters via Haywire Grenades instead makes them go against their fluff, which is suppose to be mainly against hordes and character fighting, not ambush tankbusters.

Giving them any sort of durability boost would then run into the issue of going against Wracks, who are suppose to be the "durable" troop-esque choice.

The only way I can see to change their mechanics around to fit fluff and not step on anyone's toes in the game is, like a lot of people said, give them some sort of Overwatch protection or Negation. I would also say that they should gain stealth or shroud. This, in the open, mechanically functions similar to the Harlequin's flip belts, but makes them better when going through terrain, gaining a much higher save. The only flaw to this plan is the abundance of "ignore cover" weapons all over the place and their low actual armor, since a lot of the "ignore cover" weapons compensate for having bad AP.

The trouble is, even if you give wyches overwatch protection in some form or other, they're still abysmal when they reach combat. Anyone scared of some S3 attacks?

 vipoid wrote:
The trouble is, even if you give wyches overwatch protection in some form or other, they're still abysmal when they reach combat. Anyone scared of some S3 attacks?

I think Poison + Rending would sort that out - pts as approrpiate

Make Blood Brides WS6 basic - fits with Succubus being WS8..........

 vipoid wrote:
The trouble is, even if you give wyches overwatch protection in some form or other, they're still abysmal when they reach combat. Anyone scared of some S3 attacks?

This is actually much more of a problem for me than overwatch is. I can get my wyches into combat pretty reliably. Sure, they feel overwatch a little more keenly than most, but outside of flamer walls, Tau, or Raveguard, overwatch usually isn't all that bad . The problem I've found with them is that, even with wych weapons, a charge bonus, and a decent drug roll, they just don't hit hard enough to bring an enemy down, but they also don't tarpit well enough to pin the enemy in place all that effectively. They're better once they also have furious charge, but they're still not great.

I often bring a hekatrix with an agoniser, haywire grenades, and sometimes a gun of some variety to the battlefield because she's one of those models that I"m especially attached to and whose occassional moments of glory demand that I put her in the game just to see what crazyness she pulls off next. She's actually reasonably effective at ganking guys in a challenge, hunting MCs, or slowly haywiring walkers to death while the wyches around her try to roll well on their dodge saves. The problem is that she's somethin like 50 points with her gear, and it's way too easy for my opponent to kill her with a flamer, vehicle explodes result, etc. before she even gets there.

Wyches are one of those units that could be fixed a thousand different ways. I just hope that someone actually does fix them in the next book. Which would be great. I mean, I find myself tempted to buy more wyches despite how crummy they are just because their fluff and models are that good!

@Mr. Morden:
Unfortunately, going from WS5 to WS 6 is one of the most useless stat increases. Going from 3 to 4 means you're hitting the WS3 guys on 3s, and the WS 4 guys now need 4s to hit you. Going from 4 to 5 is still pretty good because lots of things are WS4, and now you're hitting those guys on 3s. Going from WS 5 to 6, however, sort of stinks. You're still hitting 90% of things out there on 3s (same as when you were WS5), but nothing is hitting you on 5s yet. The only advantage really is against WS 5 guys (who are still hitting you on 4's, same as when you were WS 5). So you're hitting the elite melee guys on 3s, sure, but most elite melee units would rather not fight elite melee units. It's bloody and goes badly for everyone. Usually you'd rather shoot those guys to death while you're WS5/6 guys go bully something shooty.

Poison + Rending would certainly be effective, but I feel that steps on both wrack and lhamean toes. If we ever get Wych Faction Tactics (chapter tactics for wych cults), I'd love to see poisonou wyches as an option, and I really want our 5 point venom blades back, but making it a default thing, even for blood brides, just feels sort of redundant I like the idea someone posted of making blood brides pseudo-rend on a 5 though...

All good points - but I do think all three rules are quite fluffy

Blood Brides should be immensely skilled - the fact that the current WS chart is so poor and you can't hit on better than 3+ is a travesty but hey.............

Lelith is noted as being almost unique in not using poison on her blades as she is that good - so I think Poison is a good fit - same with Rending representing the ability for the Wych to find weak points. Could maybe get away with just rending - Genestealers used to be fun for this..........

Agree the 5+ pseudo rending would work well

How's this to changes to all Wych cult units.

For all Wych Cult units (Lelith, Succubus, Wychs, Bloodbrides, Hellions, Reavers and Beastmasters) to make them more reliable at getting into battle and cover they can have a permanent +3" to all movement, including run, charge and consolidate.

Swap out the effects of Hypex (+1 Initiative) and Splintermind (+1 Leadership) combat drugs to giving +3" movement (on top of the +3 they allready get) and Rage respectively with each unit with the Combat Drugs special rule getting to role on the table separatley.

For me with Wyches, I'd defintiely like to see them decrease in points to 8 each (in line with Kabalites), increased to WS5 and A2 base with rending on their blades. A squad of 10 will have 40 attacks on the charge and since most of their preffered targets will be general troops then they'll be hitting on 3's. Even if your wounding on 5's thats a pretty good chance of killing off a few models (by my maths thats about 4 rending wounds and 4 more saves to be taken). Wont wipe a squad in a single turn of combat but thats probably better, you want to kill your oponent on their turn and consolidate back towards the Raider to get the Wyches to their next victim. As for Wych Weapons, give them back their old profiles.

With Bloodbrides it would be WS6 (so that they can be more of a threat to other elite CC units should the need arise), A3 with Poison (4+) and rending on their blades, min squads of 3 or 4 (or give Venoms a max capacity of 6 instead) and they can all take Wych Weapons with the Syren having access to things like the Hellglaive or Archite Gliave as well. Might be seen as stepping on the toes of Wracks now with the poison but I've already said I'd want Wracks moved to Troops anyway.

Beastmasters should get an extra attack to the profile of all the creatures in the pack as well as the Beastmaster, max pack size of 20 and 5pt reductions to the cost of Clawd Fiends and Razorwing Flocks. Beastmaster Skyboard should get Jink as well.

Not sure Reavers really need any changes other than the general ones mention at the start, they're pretty awesome to begin with.

Hellion Skyboards gain Jink, Hellglaives are AP3 (4 if you think thats a bit much) and the old stunclaw special rules returned. Hellions should be A2 base with plasma grenades.

Succubus gets access to the clone field. Can confer her Combat Drug bonus onto units she joins, cheaper and more extensive weapon and wargear options.

Lelith gets base S4.





.

I like those changes but might i suggest that Poison being a buyable upgrade for the normal Wyches? In addition, to represent their showmanship, maybe allow them to earn VPs if they completely wipe out an enemy squad via combat (and not a sweep)? This might give people incentive to have them go in for the slaughter since it opens up an alternative way of winning matches.

I like that, how about making poison a straight 15/20pt upgrade for the unit of Wych's or Bloodbrides, that way it can be confered to Wych weapons as well?

The VP's for wiping units would be cool but might be a bit much, like this Wych Cults would be very mobile and capable of scoring objectives quite easily and I've very deliberatly upped their ability to kill oponents in close combat so they would be easy VP's to score.

Somebody mentioned earlier in the thread changing the Power from Pain table to giving out benefits army wide for each enemy unit wiped out instead of at the start of each game turn. I like that idea as it's more fluffy than the current table and more effective than the old one and would be a great incentive for Wyches to get stuck in.

The alteration to Power from Pain should be something that's Wych-exclusive (tbh, the three branchs of DE should all have their own PfP, it would fit more thematically and they already sorta did it for the Haemonculus cult).

I would like to add that if Wyches gained the ability to farm VPs from killing people, they should lose the ability to cap objectives. Granted, this totally changes up the dynamic of the game, but Wyches weren't all that durable at holding objectives anyways and this would thematically fit their attention-hungry style.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The alteration to Power from Pain should be something that's Wych-exclusive (tbh, the three branchs of DE should all have their own PfP, it would fit more thematically and they already sorta did it for the Haemonculus cult).

Whilst I don't mind each DE brance having its own PfP table, surely they should all result from killing units? They should just derive different effects from it. e.g. the current DE PfP table is all about combat - what we need is one with stuff that benefits shooty units

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

I would like to add that if Wyches gained the ability to farm VPs from killing people, they should lose the ability to cap objectives. Granted, this totally changes up the dynamic of the game, but Wyches weren't all that durable at holding objectives anyways and this would thematically fit their attention-hungry style.

.

I think it might be better if wyches just didn't get VPs for killing units. Seems like it might be a bit too good.

Make it that succubi give you the VP for being in the squad that kills a unit. That way people have incentive go jam one in every hotde of wyches

Based on the conversation I had with Jes Goodwin at the 40K Open Day this is my thinking on the Dark Eldar as they stand now.

NB I don't endorse this in any way, it is simply what I took from my conversation with him.

Since Imperials have been given free rein to ally with one another that has left other races at a major disadvantage. Your Dark Eldar army could face an enemy with SM infantry and fliers with IG artillery and blobs for holding objectives a couple of assassins and some Ad Mech, etc.

Therefore an effort is being made to develop the other factions so they can have allies and pick'n'mix formations etc. Harlequins were lifted out of DE and Craftworld dexes for this reason. There will come an Exodite dex at some stage too.

Dark Eldar are now an Eldar sub-faction, same as Craftworld and Harlequins. They have relaxed the fluff to suggest all Eldar will work together at need andit's been built into the fluff more and more.

So try not to think of the DE dex as a standalone, think of it as part of an Eldar overarching faction, so you can have hard-wearing wracks and grotesques led by haemonculi, backed up with wraith units and fast moving Harlequins.

I asked him if the reason for the Harlequin dex going into a separate book was to allow allying for the Eldar and he pretty much confirmed it, he suggested this would be done with other factions too.

Again not my idea but that is how I think they expect it to pan out now.

Old DE codex fluff mentions pic capture optics that enterprising warriors used to sell pics and vide of pain. Perhaps a purchasable upgrade to give pfp to shooty. Say 10pts and gain ptp if you spray a unit off the board. And an explodes result on damage table. To represent the burning owes and poisons doing their thing

 Imateria wrote:
How's this to changes to all Wych cult units.

For all Wych Cult units (Lelith, Succubus, Wychs, Bloodbrides, Hellions, Reavers and Beastmasters) to make them more reliable at getting into battle and cover they can have a permanent +3" to all movement, including run, charge and consolidate.

Swap out the effects of Hypex (+1 Initiative) and Splintermind (+1 Leadership) combat drugs to giving +3" movement (on top of the +3 they allready get) and Rage respectively with each unit with the Combat Drugs special rule getting to role on the table separatley.

For me with Wyches, I'd defintiely like to see them decrease in points to 8 each (in line with Kabalites), increased to WS5 and A2 base with rending on their blades. A squad of 10 will have 40 attacks on the charge and since most of their preffered targets will be general troops then they'll be hitting on 3's. Even if your wounding on 5's thats a pretty good chance of killing off a few models (by my maths thats about 4 rending wounds and 4 more saves to be taken). Wont wipe a squad in a single turn of combat but thats probably better, you want to kill your oponent on their turn and consolidate back towards the Raider to get the Wyches to their next victim. As for Wych Weapons, give them back their old profiles.

With Bloodbrides it would be WS6 (so that they can be more of a threat to other elite CC units should the need arise), A3 with Poison (4+) and rending on their blades, min squads of 3 or 4 (or give Venoms a max capacity of 6 instead) and they can all take Wych Weapons with the Syren having access to things like the Hellglaive or Archite Gliave as well. Might be seen as stepping on the toes of Wracks now with the poison but I've already said I'd want Wracks moved to Troops anyway.

Beastmasters should get an extra attack to the profile of all the creatures in the pack as well as the Beastmaster, max pack size of 20 and 5pt reductions to the cost of Clawd Fiends and Razorwing Flocks. Beastmaster Skyboard should get Jink as well.

Not sure Reavers really need any changes other than the general ones mention at the start, they're pretty awesome to begin with.

Hellion Skyboards gain Jink, Hellglaives are AP3 (4 if you think thats a bit much) and the old stunclaw special rules returned. Hellions should be A2 base with plasma grenades.

Succubus gets access to the clone field. Can confer her Combat Drug bonus onto units she joins, cheaper and more extensive weapon and wargear options.

Lelith gets base S4.

Some neat ideas in there, but I feel a few of them might be pulling each other in the wrong directions.

Bonus movement would be neat, but it also makes wyches faster than daemonettes. Which isn't necessarily a problem but does make me squint at it uncertainly. Also, I don't really have trouble making charges with wyches. I have trouble doing anything worthwhile once I have charged. The bonus movement is neat and would feel nice as you use it ("Yeah, I totally just disembarked 9"), but I'm not sure it would actually make a huge difference for me. These rules would make wyches outside of transports much faster, but I'm not terribly inclined to run my wyches without transports.

Bonus movement drug is a neat idea, but see above about usually not really needing it. Isn't a Rage drug just a worse version of the +1 Attack drug? Rolling each unit separately (like we used to) is probably fine. It adds to book keeping, but it also gives you a more robust set of drugs to use in a battle. Maybe you're facing an enemy that just really calls for +1 strength or something, and now you have better odds of getting that drug. I'd be fine with this, though I'm not sure i would make a huge mechanical difference.

Giving wyches rending, higher WS, and more attacks are all cool. Lowering their points also has a strong argument. doing both at once feels sort of kitchen-sinky. With what you're proposing, we're looking at a roughly 100 point unit (assuming 10 wyches with some wych weapons) that can potentially move 12" a turn before charging with fleet and a +3" charge roll (averages something like a 23" reliable charge range or 29" if a transport is involved). This unit will get 40 attacks on the charge while also benefiting from whatever rules wych weapons have plus poison. This unit will hit most things in the game on 3s and may or may not be benefiting from Furious Charge (which means you're rerolling to-wound against T3 armies or wounding on 4s against non-gargantuan MCs). Also, they would have rending in this scenario. Or you can assume that you didn't get the mobility drugs meaning you hit even harder, or you can assume they don't have poisonous/wych weapons which drops them down to an 80 point unit. Wyches need a buff, but I'd say the buffs your proposing make them worth at least as many points as they cost now. If we make them better, let's make them better, but let's not also make them cheaper based on the fact that they weren't worth their points before the buffs we give them.

I'm not necessarily opposed to wyches having access to some amount of poison, but poison 3+ really does feel like it's stepping on wrack and lhamean toes. And is poison really *that* much of a wych thing? I'm sure some arenas use poisonous weapons, but wych weapons have never been poisonous in the past. Wyches have splinter pistols, but the only poison I remember brides or wyches ever having for melee weapons are agonisers and venom blades. And even those are only available to their characters. Why the big push for poison?

The beast changes are all probably fine. I'd personally be okay with them just giving Kkhymarae their 4++ back, maybe lowering the cost of razorwings by 5 points, and maybe make the clawed fiend have the ability to challenge things (so that its T5 can actually matter).

Hellions are tricky. If you give them jink, you potentially mitigate one of their minor strengths (half-decent shooting). Still, it would be a nice option to have, I agree. I think making their hell glaives better is a good move, but turning them into better power lances is probably a bit much. Maybe just +2 Strength on the turn they charge? That's strength 5 normally, Strength 6 if they roll the right drug, and Strength 7 if they roll the right drug and have Furious Charge. Agreed about being able to yoink guys out of combat again. I also have a whacky (probably too complicated) idea I like where the hellions are sort of like melee death marks. I can see them deepstriking immediately after an enemy unit arrives from reserves and then getting a chance to charge the new arrival immediately (with the actual fighting occurring in the fight sub-phase as normal). Like the hellions have been harassing them through the skies (like they do), and now they're getting up in the enemy's face before he has a chance to respond.

I'm not sure where you're going with the succubus changes. Wouldn't a clone field have basically no benefit for her? And what do you mean by conferring her drugs to her unit? Is this so that she can give drugs to non-wyches (not fluff-breaking but seems like it encourages less fluffy power combos like drugged up sslyth and incubi), or is it meant to basically just stack her drugs onto another drug using unit? Basically giving blood brides she hangs out with an extra drug.

As for getting VP from killing units, I think that would be a cool rule for a wych core detachment, especially if it was limited to units containing Succubi (and maybe Syrens?). Giving it to everyone makes it seem like it would be too easy to wrack up VP. Compare to the haemonculus formation with a similar rule. It's a potent rule on a very killy unit, but that unit also costs 500+ points. It's a neat idea that I'd like to see in a limited fashion. A succubus getting bonus points for showing off is fluffy. Getting VPs left and right for assaulting stuff (which you will be trying to do anyway) seems abusable.

Maybe give Wyches the ability to charge after running? This way they can either shoot with their pistols at a potential charge target, or get closer by running. Like the old Fleet.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Maybe give Wyches the ability to charge after running? This way they can either shoot with their pistols at a potential charge target, or get closer by running. Like the old Fleet.

Would be cool but doesn't really address their main problems of not doing enough when they reach combat and not being tarpitty enough to pin units down like they used to.

I kind of think all Wych Cult units should get some sort of constant invuln save to represent their lightning fast reflexes enabling them to dodge around shots (not just in CC). I also think that maybe giving Wyches rending on their base CC weapons might have some utility (to represent them slipping a blade through a vulnerable point in a target's armor.

After playing against some DE this past weekend, I think the one change they need to the most is to give Reavers fleet.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Maybe give Wyches the ability to charge after running? This way they can either shoot with their pistols at a potential charge target, or get closer by running. Like the old Fleet.

Would be cool but doesn't really address their main problems of not doing enough when they reach combat and not being tarpitty enough to pin units down like they used to.

I mean instead of the extra 3" and on top of Imateria's other upgrades.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
How's this to changes to all Wych cult units.

For all Wych Cult units (Lelith, Succubus, Wychs, Bloodbrides, Hellions, Reavers and Beastmasters) to make them more reliable at getting into battle and cover they can have a permanent +3" to all movement, including run, charge and consolidate.

Swap out the effects of Hypex (+1 Initiative) and Splintermind (+1 Leadership) combat drugs to giving +3" movement (on top of the +3 they allready get) and Rage respectively with each unit with the Combat Drugs special rule getting to role on the table separatley.

For me with Wyches, I'd defintiely like to see them decrease in points to 8 each (in line with Kabalites), increased to WS5 and A2 base with rending on their blades. A squad of 10 will have 40 attacks on the charge and since most of their preffered targets will be general troops then they'll be hitting on 3's. Even if your wounding on 5's thats a pretty good chance of killing off a few models (by my maths thats about 4 rending wounds and 4 more saves to be taken). Wont wipe a squad in a single turn of combat but thats probably better, you want to kill your oponent on their turn and consolidate back towards the Raider to get the Wyches to their next victim. As for Wych Weapons, give them back their old profiles.

With Bloodbrides it would be WS6 (so that they can be more of a threat to other elite CC units should the need arise), A3 with Poison (4+) and rending on their blades, min squads of 3 or 4 (or give Venoms a max capacity of 6 instead) and they can all take Wych Weapons with the Syren having access to things like the Hellglaive or Archite Gliave as well. Might be seen as stepping on the toes of Wracks now with the poison but I've already said I'd want Wracks moved to Troops anyway.

Beastmasters should get an extra attack to the profile of all the creatures in the pack as well as the Beastmaster, max pack size of 20 and 5pt reductions to the cost of Clawd Fiends and Razorwing Flocks. Beastmaster Skyboard should get Jink as well.

Not sure Reavers really need any changes other than the general ones mention at the start, they're pretty awesome to begin with.

Hellion Skyboards gain Jink, Hellglaives are AP3 (4 if you think thats a bit much) and the old stunclaw special rules returned. Hellions should be A2 base with plasma grenades.

Succubus gets access to the clone field. Can confer her Combat Drug bonus onto units she joins, cheaper and more extensive weapon and wargear options.

Lelith gets base S4.

Some neat ideas in there, but I feel a few of them might be pulling each other in the wrong directions.

Bonus movement would be neat, but it also makes wyches faster than daemonettes. Which isn't necessarily a problem but does make me squint at it uncertainly. Also, I don't really have trouble making charges with wyches. I have trouble doing anything worthwhile once I have charged. The bonus movement is neat and would feel nice as you use it ("Yeah, I totally just disembarked 9"), but I'm not sure it would actually make a huge difference for me. These rules would make wyches outside of transports much faster, but I'm not terribly inclined to run my wyches without transports.

It's a nice bonus to represent that they are very fast. I agree, running any DE non-Coven unit on foot is a death sentence for said unit, but late game we may not have any transports left and I've had several games where a foot unit has been stuck on the wrong side of the board and effectively out of the battle. Hardly a deal breaker but quite useful and we don't particularly like our tranpsorts getting too close to the enemy until we're ready to kill them anyway, and can you imagine the shock on your opponents face after a turn one charge starting at your board edge (6" move in vehicle, dissembark 9", charge 15" for a 30" move)! Maybe it's a bit much as is and instead a +3" to just movement and not the random distance moves instead.

Bonus movement drug is a neat idea, but see above about usually not really needing it. Isn't a Rage drug just a worse version of the +1 Attack drug? Rolling each unit separately (like we used to) is probably fine. It adds to book keeping, but it also gives you a more robust set of drugs to use in a battle. Maybe you're facing an enemy that just really calls for +1 strength or something, and now you have better odds of getting that drug. I'd be fine with this, though I'm not sure i would make a huge mechanical difference.

There's no denying that +1S and +1T are the most desirable drugs after all Space Marines are the most commonly played army so something that gets us on equal footing for giving or taking damage with them is going to be highly useful. Personally it's those two drugs I mentioned that I'm not a fan of, we should have WS5 to start with (they're supposed to be CC specialists but aren't any better than a regular Kabalite) so though +1WS can be useful it's annoying I have to rely on a random drug to get that advantage. With the advantage built in the drug is no longer needed. I've found the +1I to always be useless since I'm always going first, or at worst at the same time. Admitedly my suggestions for their replacements aren't so great either, I'm open to better ideas though.

Giving wyches rending, higher WS, and more attacks are all cool. Lowering their points also has a strong argument. doing both at once feels sort of kitchen-sinky. With what you're proposing, we're looking at a roughly 100 point unit (assuming 10 wyches with some wych weapons) that can potentially move 12" a turn before charging with fleet and a +3" charge roll (averages something like a 23" reliable charge range or 29" if a transport is involved). This unit will get 40 attacks on the charge while also benefiting from whatever rules wych weapons have plus poison. This unit will hit most things in the game on 3s and may or may not be benefiting from Furious Charge (which means you're rerolling to-wound against T3 armies or wounding on 4s against non-gargantuan MCs). Also, they would have rending in this scenario. Or you can assume that you didn't get the mobility drugs meaning you hit even harder, or you can assume they don't have poisonous/wych weapons which drops them down to an 80 point unit. Wyches need a buff, but I'd say the buffs your proposing make them worth at least as many points as they cost now. If we make them better, let's make them better, but let's not also make them cheaper based on the fact that they weren't worth their points before the buffs we give them.

I'm not necessarily opposed to wyches having access to some amount of poison, but poison 3+ really does feel like it's stepping on wrack and lhamean toes. And is poison really *that* much of a wych thing? I'm sure some arenas use poisonous weapons, but wych weapons have never been poisonous in the past. Wyches have splinter pistols, but the only poison I remember brides or wyches ever having for melee weapons are agonisers and venom blades. And even those are only available to their characters. Why the big push for poison?

Agreed on the points, I was thinking that they're currently overcosted for what they do but given the buffs already mentioned (+1WS and A, better Wych Weapons, availability of poison) it makes sense to leave them at their current cost. As for poison, my push for Poison 4+ (not 3+, that would be a bit much) is it's simply a mechanic that lets us wound on 4's instead of 5's. Given that the standard weapon has no AP our ability to kill things will be dependent on the amount of saves we can force, rending aside, and in the army best known for fielding poison up the wazoo it's a fluffy 15 or 20pt upgrade for a Wych unit (poison seems like a good way for Wyches to inflict extra pain on their victims in the arena, which they have to do since they feed off that pain).

Frankly I'm not sure of what purpose the Wracks serve other than to be the basic troops of the Covens, though they have the misfortune to be lumped into the Elite slot where they're outclassed by almost all other options (which is worse, Bloodbrides or Wracks?). At present the only reason I'd ever run Wracks is for a Scalpal Squadron, and I'd be relying on the 2 Venoms then a lot more than I would be the Wracks. As for stepping on the Lhamaens toes, not really, she's still Poison 2+ with the Venom blade and who fields squads of Lhamaens anyway? I find her to be a more fluffy and mildly useful unit than anythink else.

The beast changes are all probably fine. I'd personally be okay with them just giving Kkhymarae their 4++ back, maybe lowering the cost of razorwings by 5 points, and maybe make the clawed fiend have the ability to challenge things (so that its T5 can actually matter).

Khymerae are supposed to be daemons so their 5++ makes sense, I laready said to lower Razorwings by 5pts and you can run a squad of just Clawed Fiends if you want but I do like the idea of allowign them to challenge.

Hellions are tricky. If you give them jink, you potentially mitigate one of their minor strengths (half-decent shooting). Still, it would be a nice option to have, I agree. I think making their hell glaives better is a good move, but turning them into better power lances is probably a bit much. Maybe just +2 Strength on the turn they charge? That's strength 5 normally, Strength 6 if they roll the right drug, and Strength 7 if they roll the right drug and have Furious Charge. Agreed about being able to yoink guys out of combat again. I also have a whacky (probably too complicated) idea I like where the hellions are sort of like melee death marks. I can see them deepstriking immediately after an enemy unit arrives from reserves and then getting a chance to charge the new arrival immediately (with the actual fighting occurring in the fight sub-phase as normal). Like the hellions have been harassing them through the skies (like they do), and now they're getting up in the enemy's face before he has a chance to respond.

I think jink is necassary to keep them alive, with a 5+ armour save you dont really want to be risking dangerous terrain tests so they won't be getting much cover. I'd be very happy to trade their small amount of extra shooting for a much better chance to survive long enought to get into combat. So with the Hellglaive, how about a +2/+1, AP4 profile so they're S5 on the charge S4 normally and since they already have Hit and Run could prove to be very dangerous. Personally I'm not sure about the Deep Strike part, I've always envisioned them as flying over the battlefield towards their targets, dodging fire and lopping off limbs as they scream past.

I'm not sure where you're going with the succubus changes. Wouldn't a clone field have basically no benefit for her? And what do you mean by conferring her drugs to her unit? Is this so that she can give drugs to non-wyches (not fluff-breaking but seems like it encourages less fluffy power combos like drugged up sslyth and incubi), or is it meant to basically just stack her drugs onto another drug using unit? Basically giving blood brides she hangs out with an extra drug.

At present dodge only conveys a 4++ in close combat. The only times a Succubus has died on me is either in combat with a Demon Prince or Blood Thirster, or due to shooting. It would be nice to mitigate the chances of the latter happening and having 2 invulns isn't that strange, an Archon can have 3 at the same time with the Shadow Field, Clone Field and Armour of Misery. Maybe a new piece of wargear that only takes affect when shot at is needed. The biggest complaints people seem to have with our HQ's is a lack of starting wargear, of optiones and a lack of ability to buff other units. The ability to convey her combat drug boost to a unit that she joins was an attempt to deal with the lack of army buffs. Maybe make it so that those buffs only apply to other Wych units or come up with something else entirely. Actually, I'd also like to make the Archite Glaive +2S as well (same goes for the Incubi Klaive), and we can give her the option of a Beastmaster Skyboard (which would give her the beast unit type), Hellion Skyboard or a Reaver Jetbike but not Scourge wings as she wouldn't really fit in with the rest of the Wych units with them.

As for getting VP from killing units, I think that would be a cool rule for a wych core detachment, especially if it was limited to units containing Succubi (and maybe Syrens?). Giving it to everyone makes it seem like it would be too easy to wrack up VP. Compare to the haemonculus formation with a similar rule. It's a potent rule on a very killy unit, but that unit also costs 500+ points. It's a neat idea that I'd like to see in a limited fashion. A succubus getting bonus points for showing off is fluffy. Getting VPs left and right for assaulting stuff (which you will be trying to do anyway) seems abusable.

That change I quite like.

It's a shame I play all my games in a GW store, I'll never get a chance to try out these changes.

Give wyches assault grenades, rending and allow for dodge to work in the whole assault phase, not just the fight sub phase.

Take away the "ignored by ATSKNF" from everything that has it.

Allow a character to take multiple relics like every other faction in the game.

Make their flyers the stealthy jets they're supposed to be.

Make their FOC give them improvements to their cover saves instead of a standard cover save which they'll probably already have.

I hate the concept of ATSKNF. It's basically "fearless, but without the drawbacks" to me and it's proliferation means that a lot of the psychology-based rules are basically rendered moot in most games (4/5ths of the armies I've faced were either Space Marines or had straight up Fearless most of the time).

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Give them a version of the banshee mask.

This.
The ability to ignore overwatch is huge. Let's say unit X can ignore overwatch. You assault with unit X first, and then with units Y and Z.
Assuming unit X got into base to base, you can save your other units from shooting.

 Galef wrote:
WHY CAN"T ARCHONS TAKE JETBIKES???????

Edit : This has been the case since the codex release of 2010.

the_scotsman wrote:
DE will never be fixed as long as stats like I and WS are priced the same as stats like T and BS, when they hold immensely lower value (which is actively lowered by your opponents models)

Why don't Eldar have this problem? Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks have a T3, but are considered amazing units. The problem is they are other advantages that make them worthwhile. The solution is not to make DE marines, but instead to make them still worthwhile.

blaktoof wrote:
Hellions- Skyboard should be a jetbike, not a jump pack.

Sadly, I've been using these as 'counts as' Eldar Shining Spears. The hellions are amazing models.
The DE have such beautiful models with such horrible rules that make you never bring them. I've also been using mandrakes as my seer council for the same reason.

My Solution
Give all Dark Eldar units (Not Wracks) the ability to lower the BS and WS of any unit attacking them by 2. Be it an 'aura of fear' or 'supernatural reflexes'.
This means that DE would be more effective against their desired prey -- weaker units they can drag into the webway, but less effective against elite units. IE would be hitting them on 6s, where marines would be hitting them on 5s.

The in game effect is shown below. Lets say 10 bolter shots are shooting at wytches in the open. Normally they have a 2/3 (hit) * 2/3 (wound) or 4/9 chance to kill. This means 20 bolter shots will kill ~8.8 DE. This changes them to losing 1/3 (hit) * 2/3 (wound) or 2/9 chances to kill -- resulting in half the dead DE, or ~4.44.
Compared to a marine 2/3 (hit) * 1/2 (wound) * (1/3) failed save = 1/9 chance to kill.

This would give DE half the durability of marines in the open instead of 1/4 the durability. It would give the DE something cool and unique, and would also increase their ability in assault by lowering the chance for enemy models to hit and increasing their ability to hit. It also goes along with the DE theme by weakening other armies statlines -- as we see today by lowering leadership.

I suggest this instead of extra firepower and speed because the DE already have this. Sure, they need to tweak some garbage units, but venom spam can still crank out a huge amount of shots. Increasing the damage output without increasing the durability will not help the army keep from getting tabled. This slight change will help keep the DE alive for another turn to deal damage back in return.

@Imateria: All good points, and I don't really have much else to say. I agree with you on wych drugs and find myself growing to like a d3 chart of more potent drugs rather than a d6 chart more and more. There has almost always been at least one drug on the chart that you never want to roll, and I wonder if that's a result of wyches not really needing 6 different options. Maybe they just need to be strong and tough or to get bonus attacks with the ability to add one to their dodge save or something that manipulates PFP.

Regarding khymarae, I know that the 5++ inkeeping with their daemonic nature. That said, khymarae were clearly meant to be your cheap wound absorbers in the last book, and they struggle a bit with that job now (though hiding in cover helps). To me, khymarae go up front to eat wounds, razorwings do most of the damage, and clawed fiends are there to pack a punch when you need something a little strong than razorwings. But that's just my take on it. It would be cool to give the beast masters more fluffy wargear options. They're dark eldar who hallucinate their souls into going on spirit quests so that they can tame their nightmare realm pokemon. This is awesome, and I want more of it.

Edit: Also, the Fantasy Flight RPGs totally have khymarae phasing through walls like Shadowcat. So a 4++ sort of makes sense if you think of it as their "thing" rather than just being from standard daemonic resillience.

@MechaEmperor7000:
I actually think ATSKNF is a pretty fluffy rule that's useful without necessarily being OP. It's just the fact that marines are so common that makes it problematic. If marine armies were as rare as tyranid armies, morale checks and soul fright weapons would be fun, useful things. Running into the odd marine army and seeing that they can negate such rules would stink quite so much because you know you're likely to benefit from soul fright in the next several games you play. It's just that marines are going to be your opponent at least half the time, and that means soul fright and similar rules are going to be useless half the time.

@Labmouse42:
I know wyches suffer from overwatch more than most due to their relatively high cost and low durability, but I never find myself going, "overwatch is the reason my wyches aren't winning this combat." With the exception of flamer-heavy squads or odd ducks like tau and dark angels, you're probably looking at losing a wych or two to overwatch assuming cover and Feel No Pain aren't cooperating. That stinks, but those two girls combined were only going to kill about one ork boy on average. Letting them have their dodge save in the charge sub-phase would be reasonable, I think.

Agreed on making our units useful and unique rather than copying others. I know eldar get a lot of flack right now for being OP, but I actually really love how 90% of the codex is put together. Scorpions, hawks, and spiders might be a little too good for their costs, but they all do their jobs in interesting, fluffy, effective ways. I'd kind of like all books to be like that (sans the obvious problem areas like scat bikes or the low cost of wraith knights).

Regarding dark eldar on jetbikes, I'm afraid I must call grox droppings, my good sir or madame. In the first dark eldar codex, our HQs could take bikes, hellion boards, or (if I remember correctly) even scourge wings! They lost those options in the 5th edition book, and I will be a happy dark kin when my scourge-wined-archon or haemonculus on jetbike can be a reality again. Also, dark eldar have never really been a foot army. You could take warrior squads in the first codex that could double up on heavy weapons at the cost of losing access to a transport, but pretty much everyone just stuck everything in a gun boat because it was more fun and effective. Same with 5th edition. You could kind of work your way around taking lots of transports with a webway portal, but you usually did that by sticking a haemonculus in a raider along with a sizable chunk of the rest of your army.

I'm afraid I'm not a fan of the aura of fear thing. If daemons, night bringers, and tyranids don't scare the snot out of an imperial guardsman to the point of hurting his aim, I don't feel our pointy space elves are sufficiently scary to do so. I mean, they're scary, sure, but not more scary than a daemon. Something along those lines would be a cool "faction tactic" for that kabal that specializes in fear though.

While I'm open to alternatives to "extra firepower and speed," I also feel that the right kinds of firepower and speed are also perfectly valid solution to the dark kins' problems. Being able to move-shoot-move the way eldar and tau can would be both fluffy and helpful for our dark eldar who could proceed to wear down the enemy before committing to a bolder strike. A gun that's better at popping vehicles and MCs than the current incarnation of the dark lance would let us take the teeth off an enemy at a range the way we used to. Applied cruelty and shameless trickery are both fluffy and valid things that I'd love for the dark kin to have more of, but so are firepower and mobility.

Taffy17 wrote:
Give wyches assault grenades, rending and allow for dodge to work in the whole assault phase, not just the fight sub phase.

I take it you missed the part in the BRB where plasma grenades act as assault grenades, and Wyches have them already.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Regarding dark eldar on jetbikes, I'm afraid I must call grox droppings, my good sir or madame. In the first dark eldar codex, our HQs could take bikes, hellion boards, or (if I remember correctly) even scourge wings!

Doh!
They could take skyboards for 15 points and a jetbike for 35. I did not see an option for scourge wings.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm afraid I'm not a fan of the aura of fear thing. If daemons, night bringers, and tyranids don't scare the snot out of an imperial guardsman to the point of hurting his aim, I don't feel our pointy space elves are sufficiently scary to do so. I mean, they're scary, sure, but not more scary than a daemon. Something along those lines would be a cool "faction tactic" for that kabal that specializes in fear though.

While I'm open to alternatives to "extra firepower and speed," I also feel that the right kinds of firepower and speed are also perfectly valid solution to the dark kins' problems. Being able to move-shoot-move the way eldar and tau can would be both fluffy and helpful for our dark eldar who could proceed to wear down the enemy before committing to a bolder strike. A gun that's better at popping vehicles and MCs than the current incarnation of the dark lance would let us take the teeth off an enemy at a range the way we used to. Applied cruelty and shameless trickery are both fluffy and valid things that I'd love for the dark kin to have more of, but so are firepower and mobility.

You could describe it as 'super reflexes' or something akin to that instead of horror. You could also say they use special devices that weaken the nureal connections of those near them. The justification does not matter -- it's the game effect that does.

Edit : The craftworld eldar can run and shoot. The harlequins can run and assault. The dark eldar need another mechanic that's unique to them. I don't think that copying battle focus is the way to go. Giving them a 'run in assault phase' would just be a weaker version of 'battle focus'. That is why I am thinking out of the box for ideas.

I still like the whole 'debuff' idea. Lowering the WS / BS / S / T / Ld / AV / Saves of the enemy models would be very thematic for the DE, in addition to giving them something that is unique to the army. The trick, of course, is that any jinking of those traits can have mass effects on the game. Remember who broken psybolt ammo was in the old GK codex? Much playtesting would be required, but I think it could be really cool.