Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

autumnlotus wrote:
A question that started in my group and I want to continue onto this board: if/when dark eldar are updated next, assuming things continue with the Decursion level of power, what would the codex need to work properly and be fun to play? This includes unit balance, new choices or old choices being brought back, or new models.

As an example: I hope that all the HQs that are generic gain all their options back. I have 2 haemonculi that have venom blades and liquifier guns, with fluffy tokens to denote the use of Clone Field. Now they aren't "rules legal", for no real reason besides the models not having those options. Likewise I want the Unique HQs to come back. I miss Mr Decapitator, and have had to use a herald of Slaanesh with permission to take the Infiltrate Warlord trait for it to be close

Okay the key to a Dark Eldar Codex release is to simultaneously put out all the codex no one actually cares about but everyone who plays those armies WISH people cared about. So you'd do Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Witch Hunters, etc all at once and have the entire community go, 'wow, w/e, slow month for 40k I guess.' If it came out within a month of the new CSM book you wouldn't even have to roll your eyes at the Chaos players whining about how THEIR army is the most unloved one of all.

All poison weapons wound on 3+ instead of 4+
All Lance weapons reduce AP value to 11 instead of 12
Dodge works against overwatch
Poison for Witches
One extra turn of night fighting.
Void mine is S D


On the other hand .... Dark Eldar work good against BA, SW, GK, Orks, Imps, Bugs, Deamons, CSM ....
So why does everyone want to make all These armys better. Wouldn't it be easier to nerf just 4 (Necrons, Eldar, SM, Tau)?

Because even if you nerfed those armies, every other codex you listed has garbage internal balance.

autumnlotus wrote:
That's something don't get: where in the lore does it say dark eldar would ever ever ally with Craftworlds? They are like chaos with the imperium, total opposites that happen to share a species. Harlequins make sense obviously, and corsairs could be allies of convenience. Chaos doesn't make sense sure, just have to avoid Tyranid level where they get zero allies

* That time they showed up to help Iyanden because they found Iyanden's necromancy hillarious/decadent.

* Valedor, where they teamed up to fight Tyranids again.

* That part where they both *really* hate Slaanesh.

* That part where they both really hate necrons.

*Both have ties to harlequins who could theoretically call in favors.

* Both use the webway and would reasonably want to protect it.

The dark eldar see craftworlders as silly, boring prudes, and the craftworlders see the dark eldar as perverse, disgusting freaks, but they're both still eldar. That really important ruin where that seriously bad thing was sealed up? Their cousins get how important is is for that thing to remain sealed. That planet with all the unsealed webway portals? Better go wipe out whatever is trying to invade it. They have plenty of disagreements, but they share enough history and long-view perspective to work together when they have to.

Wyldhunt wrote:

autumnlotus wrote:
That's something don't get: where in the lore does it say dark eldar would ever ever ally with Craftworlds? They are like chaos with the imperium, total opposites that happen to share a species. Harlequins make sense obviously, and corsairs could be allies of convenience. Chaos doesn't make sense sure, just have to avoid Tyranid level where they get zero allies

* That time they showed up to help Iyanden because they found Iyanden's necromancy hillarious/decadent.

* Valedor, where they teamed up to fight Tyranids again.

* That part where they both *really* hate Slaanesh.

* That part where they both really hate necrons.

*Both have ties to harlequins who could theoretically call in favors.

* Both use the webway and would reasonably want to protect it.

The dark eldar see craftworlders as silly, boring prudes, and the craftworlders see the dark eldar as perverse, disgusting freaks, but they're both still eldar. That really important ruin where that seriously bad thing was sealed up? Their cousins get how important is is for that thing to remain sealed. That planet with all the unsealed webway portals? Better go wipe out whatever is trying to invade it. They have plenty of disagreements, but they share enough history and long-view perspective to work together when they have to.

All this and more - there is also the (relatively new aspect) that you can move between the two "races" - usually via Corsair bands:

So a Craftworld Eldar can be become more and more wild and bloodthirsty but eschew the Aspect warrior path and become a corsair, he then enjoys it even more and becomes part of Dark Eldar aligned groups and eventually transitions to a full member of their decadent and brutal society - its not clear how this exactly works but its clear it does.

Conversely a Dark Eldar Dracon loses her place and flees with loyal followers and her warship to become a Corsair captain, she becomes less reliant on the torture of others to survive until she reaches a point where she (somehow) no longer has the power from pain aspect to her soul......... There is actually a character who is described in exactly this way in the path novels.

It still seems stupid to me. Like sure they should be able to ally. But Battle Brothers seems insane. Just like Ultramarines being Battle Brothers to Space Wolves, or sisters of battle with grey knights. In narratives games everyone should be battle brothers for "forging the Narrative", but in general allies should be realistic rather then be so Gamey. That and if it stays this way Deldar will forever just be CW eldar's utility belt rather then equals

autumnlotus wrote:
It still seems stupid to me. Like sure they should be able to ally. But Battle Brothers seems insane. Just like Ultramarines being Battle Brothers to Space Wolves, or sisters of battle with grey knights. In narratives games everyone should be battle brothers for "forging the Narrative", but in general allies should be realistic rather then be so Gamey. That and if it stays this way Deldar will forever just be CW eldar's utility belt rather then equals

The only reason that DEldar are used in this way is that their codex is so very very poor and the Eldar one is so very very broken. IF both were equal then the issue would either not arise or indeed matter.

Its the same problem with the Imperial Alliances - its not that its unrealistic (it isn't the Imperial forces are merely part of a giant if unwieldy war machine) its that the combinations are potentially broken or save to prop up a poor codex.

You are probably right that Allies of Convenience would cover most aspects nicely.............

Rhats the thing though, just because they aren't shooting at eachother on sight doesn't mean they should be allies. If chaos marines can't work with a renegade Deldar force, then eldar shouldn't get that same privilege xD either everyone can ally with everyone for fluff, or only people with direct connections to eachother should. Like impguard to tau, sisters to black Templar, inquisition to all imperium, etc.

I won't argue about the corsairs though. In that they are like orks: anyone can hire them, given the right circumstances...besides tyranids, because they dotn have the diplomats in their fluff anymore.

I deeply dislike the Allied Matrix since it broke the balance for a lot of armies and I think Morden illustrate it very clearly. Basically the Dark Eldar and Harlequins have become "add-ons" for the existing CW Eldar Army. When allied, they fulfill a niche that the core CW Eldar army does not have a solution for (cheap assault vehicles that can take lots of troops, Darklances, Poison weapons) but when they're on their own they have only the barest of minimum to solve the general problems on their own (or, in the case of Harlequins, no solutions at all for certain cases).

Personally I think they should get rid of the Allied Matrix and instead make it so that certain armies can ally with others, like the old Daemonhunter and Witchhunter codexes.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Gain Ancient Doom, just like eldar.

Real Space Raider: When determining damage from an exploded vehicle, use the initiative value instead of toughness when rolling to wound. Furthermore, models with this special rule also have the Skilled Rider special rule.

Can choose to start the game with Night fight rules.

Give actually useful artifacts instead of the complete trash we have now

More AP 2 close combat weaponry that I can actually take on an Archon

HQ have access to Jet bikes, Sky Boards and Scourge Wings

Give all the dedicated close combat units assault grenades. Why don't they have access to assault grenades?

Make Phantasm Grenade Launchers actual assault grenades again

Blood Brides have WS 5 and roll twice on the poison chart.

All Wyches gain Dodge against overwatch and rending attacks in close combat

Wracks moved to Core

Hellions moved to core and have 2 attacks base and access to assault grenades

Trueborn given ghost plate armour as standard

Razorwing and Voidraven gain vector dancer, stealth and armour 11.

Void Lances and Void mine are D weapons

Shredders gain the monofilament rule and shred (why don't they have shred?) and are now flamer templates

Venoms are now 6 passenger capacity

Raiders are now 12 passenger capacity

Web way portal can be placed anywhere on the board, any unit arriving from reserves may use it and you can assault out of it.

I'm sure theres more stuff. Words can't describe how bad this codex is. I can't believe they released it, hopefully the new one has a little bit of life to it.

This would be a good start.

Honestly though, I think the thing I hate most about the current DE codex isn't the horrendous internal balance or the abysmal external balance, it's that it's so bloody boring.

Dark Eldar should be fun. Otherwise, why even play them? I can tell you right now that it isn't for the moral highground.

The 5th edition book might not have been perfect, but it had great fluff and flavour. Not only was there a plethora of wargear, but there was also a genuine effort to make interesting rules that brought the fluff of that wargear to life. Granted, the rules weren't always great in a competitive sense, but at least you could see the writers were trying.

In the new book, not only has the wargear been cut down drastically, but it's also evident that no effort whatsoever went into anything in the book. Not only did sod-all effort go into creating new stuff (mainly because there is no new stuff), but flavourful rules from the old book were replaced with dull, lifeless generic ones. e.g.:
- Urien used to regenerate 1 wound automatically each turn (this was a huge part of his fluff). Now he has IWND.
- Clone Field used to ignored d3 attacks in combat. Now it's a 4++.
- Electrocorrosive Whip and Mindphase Gauntlet used to mess with the enemy attacks or characteristics when they hit. Now they have Concussive. Concussive. On an army that's about 90% I5+ models.
etc.

What's worse is not only are these rules vastly less flavourful than their 5th edition counterparts, they're not even more functional. We've literally traded flavour for nothing whatsoever. This at the same time that every Eldar unit is swimming in unique special rules.

In terms of how to fix DE, make sure that the people writing it actually have a modicum of enthusiasm for the army.

@Vipoid: We are of one mind, brother.

To me, the 5th edition dark eldar book is probably my favorite codex that I've ever owned (sorry, craftworlders!) It was dripping with fluff, you could make very distinct, flavorful armies, and those options that weren't necessarily effective were at least fun!

Mindphase gauntlet was meh in 5th edition because it was too trick to slap a character with it. So when they get a 7th edition book and you're excited to see something similar now that challenges exist... it's concussive.

Hellions used to be able to yoink a guy out of combat, potentially giving you a great way to dismantle deathstars. Now that wargear is instant death with no ap on a low strength model...

Wych weapons used to give you unique ways to use them (tarpit, reliable damage, higher potential damage), but now they're just variations on "reroll this or that."

I miss how visceral Power From Pain used to feel too. I'd kind of like to see something along the lines of a Blood Tithe rule for PFP. Every time a unit dies, you charge up your pain batteries. Then let players decide how many pain tokens they want to use up in a turn to grant buffs army-wide. Maybe let sweeping advances prevent your pain tokens from ever dropping below a certain point (as a nod to the old slave taking rules).

That would go a long way towards keeping them interesting. As for mechanics, I'm not sure what we need. I hear people saying we need mid-strength high RoF weapon to pop transports, but I'm not sure that's the case. Let warriors take a second AT weapon (or count dark lances as holding still while in vehicles), maybe open up warrior access to haywire blasters or even heat lances (weird weapon, but good AP), and I feel like you go a long way towards solvling tank-busting woes. We've got blaster born, forgeworld reapers, and scourges, and those are all pretty solid tank busters. Not eldar-good, but good.

One rule that I'd really love to see is an assault move for vehicles. Mobility is supposed to be the dark eldar thing. Currently, craftworlders with battle focus outmaneuver our infantry and their planes have vector dances where ours don't. Harlequins can run and assault where we can't (not that it isn't fluffy and appropriate for harlies). Corsairs can take jet packs all over the place. Sure, dark eldar have lots of deepstrike, but an assault move would be fantastic. It still binds dark eldar to their vehicles as per tradition, but it lets you do drivebye shooting and rely on mobility to hide afterwards. That seems like a reasonable piece of wargear or formation rule, right?

Dark eldar and eldar have helped each other several times in the past. Additionally there is fluff to suggest individuals going back and forth between the two.

Again Battle brothers doesn't reflect that there best friends ever. It reflects that the eldar ultimately is one race that holds themselves above all others. As for allies leading to broken combos that violate the background, this has always existed in 40k and is something I put on the players as much as GW.

Honestly though, I think the thing I hate most about the current DE codex isn't the horrendous internal balance or the abysmal external balance, it's that it's so bloody boring.

Dark Eldar should be fun. Otherwise, why even play them? I can tell you right now that it isn't for the moral highground.

Indeed. I usually don't really rate codex's by their power level, but by the way in which a codex allows you to create a themed army, but this book was just gutted as far as options go. Like, litterally everything interesting turned to gak. Boring doesn't begin to describe this book, I think this might be the worst codex of all time. It's definitely up there with Chaos Marines (both 4th and 6th edition, although I still think 6th is worse).

The one that killed me is the Djinn Blade. 30 pts for a strength 3 ap 3 weapon that might kill you...lol. Who wrote this?

Every time I think about taking my army out of the display case and playing with it, I try to build an army and I just give up half way, I just don't care.

5th edition Dark Eldar wasn't a great codex by any means either. I had my gripes with some of it, but that was practically a masterpiece compared to this trash. At least that book was playable for the time, I'm still convinced that Phill Kelly has absolutely no idea what he is doing.

Making eldar and dark eldar not battle brothers would be a very good thing for dark eldar.

Currently most tournament s see dark eldar in armies as taxi services for eldar. Dark eldar have model sales for mostly this reason and for people who like modeling and painting, a lesser amount of sales represents people who play primarily or only dark eldar.

If eldar were not BB GW would have to give more consideration to making more of the dark eldar codex viable .

Making them not Battle Brothers just means they show up even less at tournaments.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Making them not Battle Brothers just means they show up even less at tournaments.

if they were made not BB now as an errata yes, if they were made not BB during a design process- not necessarily.

I'm pretty sure the codex would've been written as poorly. The design change happened after Necrons.

A couple more points:

1) I get that we're always going to be playing second-fiddle to Eldar in terms of firepower and durability (not to mention Psykers), but do we have to be worse in speed, too? I thought speed was our thing. Our only thing, really. Yet whilst our HQs are stuck walking, Eldar are overflowing with Jetbikes. Whilst our *hovering* MCs are stuck moving 6", the Eldar Power Rangers Action Figure can fly 6" per turn. And, that's not evven getting into how Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks completely outclass anything we have. Or the fact that Battle Focus makes Eldar infantry arbitrarily faster than ours.

Could we maybe be allowed to do one thing better than Eldar?

2) I get that our HQs are never going to win in the toughness department, but why are they stuck hitting like wet socks? I thought the entire purpose of glass cannons was to hit harder than tougher opponents, yet (as usual) we seem to be stuck with the worst of both worlds. Which is your favourite Archon weapon? The S3 AP3 weapon, the S3 AP3 weapon, the S3 AP3 weapon or the other S3 AP3 weapon? And, what's worse is that our HQs contribute absolutely nothing else. Autarchs at least have reserve-manipulation, but Archons and Succubi have no support abilities whatsoever. They exist only as beatsticks, yet lack any meaningful weapons. Their weapons would be considered pathetic even if they weren't T3. And what's worse is that 2 of the above cost as much as a Power Fist, and the third costs more. Why? Why even bother printing these weapons if you could replace every single one with a picture of the design team mooning you, and the players wouldn't even notice (save perhaps that their codex had suddenly become less offensive)?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

The one that killed me is the Djinn Blade. 30 pts for a strength 3 ap 3 weapon that might kill you...lol. Who wrote this?

Not only can it kill you, but if it wounds you it will also deny you your Shadowfield save, and then destroy your Shadowfield. The same Shadowfield that costs 40pts, because God forbid DE get even a single piece of wargear that isn't hideously overcosted.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the codex would've been written as poorly. The design change happened after Necrons.

?

Dark Eldar were released before necrons. The design change for DE to 7th definitely did not happen after necrons.


Tau Empire ISBN 978-1785810091 October 2015
Dark Angels ISBN 978-1782537526 June 2015
Space Marines ISBN 978-1782537472 June 2015
Cult Mechanicus ISBN 978-1782537427 May 2015
Imperial Knights ISBN 978-1782537342 May 2015
Craftworlds ISBN 978-1782537304 April 2015
Skitarii ISBN 978-1782537380 April 2015
Khorne Daemonkin ISBN 978-1782537267 March 2015
Harlequins ISBN 978-1782536833 February 2015
Necrons ISBN 978-1782536079 January 2015
Blood Angels ISBN 978-1782536123 December 2014
Dark Eldar ISBN 978-1782534839 October 2014
Grey Knights ISBN 978-1782533702 August 2014
Space Wolves ISBN 978-1782533818 August 2014
Orks ISBN 978-1782533290 June 2014

There was obviously an overall change in game design GW put out at the point of Necrons on.

 vipoid wrote:
A couple more points:

1) I get that we're always going to be playing second-fiddle to Eldar in terms of firepower and durability (not to mention Psykers), but do we have to be worse in speed, too? I thought speed was our thing. Our only thing, really. Yet whilst our HQs are stuck walking, Eldar are overflowing with Jetbikes. Whilst our *hovering* MCs are stuck moving 6", the Eldar Power Rangers Action Figure can fly 6" per turn. And, that's not evven getting into how Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks completely outclass anything we have. Or the fact that Battle Focus makes Eldar infantry arbitrarily faster than ours.

Could we maybe be allowed to do one thing better than Eldar?

2) I get that our HQs are never going to win in the toughness department, but why are they stuck hitting like wet socks? I thought the entire purpose of glass cannons was to hit harder than tougher opponents, yet (as usual) we seem to be stuck with the worst of both worlds. Which is your favourite Archon weapon? The S3 AP3 weapon, the S3 AP3 weapon, the S3 AP3 weapon or the other S3 AP3 weapon? And, what's worse is that our HQs contribute absolutely nothing else. Autarchs at least have reserve-manipulation, but Archons and Succubi have no support abilities whatsoever. They exist only as beatsticks, yet lack any meaningful weapons. Their weapons would be considered pathetic even if they weren't T3. And what's worse is that 2 of the above cost as much as a Power Fist, and the third costs more. Why? Why even bother printing these weapons if you could replace every single one with a picture of the design team mooning you, and the players wouldn't even notice (save perhaps that their codex had suddenly become less offensive)?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

The one that killed me is the Djinn Blade. 30 pts for a strength 3 ap 3 weapon that might kill you...lol. Who wrote this?

Not only can it kill you, but if it wounds you it will also deny you your Shadowfield save, and then destroy your Shadowfield. The same Shadowfield that costs 40pts, because God forbid DE get even a single piece of wargear that isn't hideously overcosted.

Speed:
I very much agree. It's cool that craftworlders have vector dancer planes, but surely the true kin deserve it even more than they do? Power From Pain as an alternative to Battle Focus is a neat idea, but PFP is so rarely helpful compared to Battle Focus that they really aren't comparable. As I mentioned earlier, I'd love some wargear or formation rules that let dark eldar vehicles make thrust moves in the assault phase.

HQ Options:
I agree that we could really use some more variety in our HQ weapon options. We could certainly stand to get some of the flavor that we lost back. That said, I really don't share most dark eldar players' hatred of our HQ's. The haemonculus is sort of meh, but Covens lets you do neat things with them. Succubi are the place to look if you want AP2, and that AP 2 is potentially strength 6 on the charge (albeit that's only on turn 4+ and only if you get bonus strength drugs), but still. The succubus is an okay little beatstick. The archon can take a 2+ invul, which is a pretty big deal, and he has access to a couple half decent guns which he shoots with a solid BS. They're far from cheesy, and they're maybe a bit expensive, but they seem fine to me.

What HQ's are we comparing them to? Our archons wish they could have some of the autarch's options, but we have a better statline, webway portals, and access to a 2+ invul. Autarchs are cool, but archons probably actually have a bit more raw power. A generic chaptermaster/battle captain is obviously a lot more durable than our succubi, but we'll still swing before them and ignore their armor with an archon glaive. Warbosses hit hard, but we have pretty solid odds of winning against one in combat (albeit you'll have to look to Drazhar or Lelith if he's wearing 2+ armor). Sure, we don't compare to a tricked out Wolf Lord on a T-Wolf or unkillable relic chapter masters, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

Most dark eldar unis are bullies that would rather engage in fights they know they can win than have a "fair" fight, and our HQs are no exception. My archon can tank wounds or offer a few special toys to a squad (haywires, agonizer, webway portal). Succubi offer AP2, and I find that they tend to win their challenges. It's keeping them alive against the enemies they don't kill that proves tricky. I'm less enthused about haemonculi, but coven formations are cool. Drazhar actually kicks a lot of butt for me on a regular basis with his solid armor, high-strength AP2, rampage, etc. The trick is to stick him in a FA venom by himself rather than attaching him to incubi.

Respectfully, what are you looking for from our HQs that they aren't offering? I agree that giving them hellion boards, scourge wings, and bikes again would be cool. I agree that more weapon variety (basically just a return to what they could take in the last book) would be nice, and we all know that power weapons everywhere are overcosted. But that said, what would you like to see our HQs do that they don't already? AP2 would be nice, but to me, you're not really meant to assault guys in 2+ armor with an archon. You poison them to death or blast them away with, er, blasters. Or heck, maybe even send in the incubi if they aren't in terrain.

All the codexes pre necron are weak because they reflect a abrupt change in design philosophy.

The whole glass cannon thing applies to the whole army IMO.

Yes, the Archon can have a very expensive 2++ that can short out. But he is by no means a tank, a single roll of a 1 and he's toast to anything strength 6+ and after his Shadowfield shorts out he's pretty much naked. Succubus with a 4++ isn't great either, again anything strength 6+ will insta-gib her. For Eldar, an impressive statline is pretty much irrelevant, they are still strength 3, toughness 3. If you don't have access to good wargear, you're pretty much useless in combat.

Every HQ choice in Space Marines for example has access to AP 2 weapons, hell their unit champions have access to more/better weapons than our HQ.

Personally, I want to see some of the nastiest, most overpowered combat weapons in the game next to Chaos Marines. Dark Eldar is all about speed and hitting power, currently we lack hitting power and other armies can equal our speed whilst maintaining both hitting power and survivability. The fragility of the army is an important weakness and I want to keep it that way, but we need something to overcome that.

Wyldhunt wrote:

HQ Options:
I agree that we could really use some more variety in our HQ weapon options. We could certainly stand to get some of the flavor that we lost back. That said, I really don't share most dark eldar players' hatred of our HQ's. The haemonculus is sort of meh, but Covens lets you do neat things with them.

I'd argue Covens lets you do neat things in spite of Haemonculi.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Succubi are the place to look if you want AP2,

But why? Why aren't our Archons allowed AP2? You don't see this with other armies.

Wyldhunt wrote:

and that AP 2 is potentially strength 6 on the charge (albeit that's only on turn 4+ and only if you get bonus strength drugs),

By potentially, you mean 1/6 games, and then only from turn 4 onwards.

Let me know when Succubi are S6 by default.

Wyldhunt wrote:
The archon can take a 2+ invul, which is a pretty big deal

No, no it isn't. Not when that 2++ costs 2/3 of his base cost and is lost the first time he fails it (though odds are he's dead the first time he fails it anyway). Again, I see other HQs walking around with T5, 4 wounds and 2+/3++ saves that never go away and cost vastly less than Shadowfields. Oddly, this doesn't seem to limit those HQs in any way - they're also allowed vastly better weapons than the Archon.

Wyldhunt wrote:
and he has access to a couple half decent guns which he shoots with a solid BS.

A couple? He has, at best, one, and even that is overpriced garbage.

Wyldhunt wrote:

What HQ's are we comparing them to? Our archons wish they could have some of the autarch's options, but we have a better statline, webway portals, and access to a 2+ invul.

And Autarchs come with a 4++ and Haywire Grenades by default (taking both of which would raise an Archon's cost by 25pts). Not to mention having access to Jetbikes, 18" movement wings and Warp Spider Jump Packs. And that's on top of having better melee weapons and vastly better guns.

Wyldhunt wrote:
A generic chaptermaster/battle captain is obviously a lot more durable than our succubi, but we'll still swing before them and ignore their armor with an archon glaive.

The Archon certainly doesn't ignore their armour because he had no AP2 weapons. Not to mention that he captains/chapter masters come with a 4++ (and can upgrade it to a 3++ for a pittance), have access to S8 AP2 weapons (or a S7 AP2 weapon that strikes at initiative), and can be T5 with a 12" move.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Most dark eldar unis are bullies that would rather engage in fights they know they can win than have a "fair" fight, and our HQs are no exception.

That should be a player choice - not something that's forced on us because our HQs can't fight heir way out of a wet paper bag.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Respectfully, what are you looking for from our HQs that they aren't offering?

Here's what I'd like to see:

- Weapons with actual bite. It shouldn't have to be 4pm on the third Tuesday of the month for our weapons to actually hit at decent strength.

- AP2 and or Rending on the Huskblade and Djin Blade, at the very least.

- Significant cost reductions on wargear (Shadowfield, Clonefield, most of out melee weapons)

- Options for Jetbike, Wings and Skyboard for HQs

- It would also be nice if the Archon had an ability of some kind. I know it's pointless to expect something as fluffy as interesting as a the First Prince ability (on Corsair Princes), but just something. Whether a support ability like the Autarch (though probably with a more offensive focus) or else something that just helps him personally.

At the end of the say, I want characters who don't feel like they were designed by the incarnation of a filing cabinet.

With whoever said that Dark Eldar should have speed, I totally agree.

I forgot what Battle Focus does but I think Dark Eldar should have the "run and shoot" ability (I think that's what Battlefocus is) AND for wyches, Charge after Running. In terms of overall speed though, I think the design philosophy should be that if a unit does not have access to a transport of some kind, jetbikes or hoverboards, it should have 12 inch movement (Talos should totally have something akin to "Monstrous Beast" type. Tell me that bag of flesh isn't a monstrous beast). Nothing in this codex should have any less, and completely do away with heavy and salvo weapons. Conversely, to balance this out, ranged weapons should have short ranges, to encourage more "drive by shootings", which fits the theme of Dark Eldar and their Raiding tendencies. It also cuts down on a problem often cited against the tau, namely that they can backtrack and still shoot people since their guns still have ridiculously long range on the move.

Personally, I think Wyches should have something akin to flyers in that you can only ever fire Snapshots at them unless you have a specific rule that overrides it (what rule this would be without totally upheaving the core rules is beyond me though). Wyches are suppose to be insanely fast and rely on dodging rather than armor, so it should be represented in the rules. I don't actually want them to do this though, because functionally it makes wyches totally usurp Wracks in the role of "insanely durable troops" and takes away one of the primary reasons why Wyches are hard to play.

Drugs need to be simplified. Instead of a D6 roll in which half the abilities are crap, it should be a D3 roll in which all the abilities are awesome, granting both a +1 stat AND a USR

Wyches should also have Rending to represent them stabbing the gaps in armour.
---------------------
Honestly I would only make 3 changes to the entire Codex to make them better.

1) RSR detachment is always Night fight turn 1, all units have Shroud during that turn.

2) Archons and Succubus have access to Reaver jetbikes.

3) Wyches, BloodBrides & Hellions have Jink & Rending.

@Vipoid:
All fair points. I do okay with my HQs in their current incarnation, but I would love to see more/better options for them too.

@MechaEmperor7000:
Always-on invisibility is probably a bit of a stretch for wych speed, especially considering neither daemonettes nor harlequins have it. I actually think their 4+ dodge save is great as is in melee. They just need for it to also apply against overwatch, to have easier acces to FNP again, and to get some version of a wych weapon for tarpitting back. In the past, wyches have served well as a tarpit unit. Think of them as entertainers that draw out the suffering rather than ending it quickly.

@Galef:
I like the d3 idea for wych drugs! Maybe something like:
1. Speedy drug: grants +1 Attack, and lets you run and charge.
2. Toughness drug: grants +1 Toughness and +1 FNP.
3. Strength drug: grants +1 strength and... rending maybe?

Rending as default on wyches makes a lot of sense, but part of me wants to make that a bloodbride thing. There's probably nothing wrong with giving rending or pseudo-rending to normal wyches though as it's basically melee bladestorm.

Not sure I'm sold on your 3 changes though. I'd rather have a detachment make it be nightfighting for multiple turns rather than just grant a slightly better cover save turn 1. Our HQs should definitely have access to bikes, boards, and wings on the basis of those things being cool, but I'm not sure we'd suddenly see big reaver or hellion squads very often. The option is nice, but we'd probably see shadowfields in seer councils much more often than we'd see succubi leading hellion packs.

Giving wyche etc. jink would be pretty snazzy though.

Could always have Bloodbrides rend on 5s.

Really bloodbridea need a massive buff to ever be used. Maybe make the specialty weapons cheaper for them, giving a bonus if all of them use the same weapon? Or have all them them getting the option to use the AP 2 glaive? Something to warrent buying an expensive fragile model when they have to fight over the position with Incubi

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
With whoever said that Dark Eldar should have speed, I totally agree.

I forgot what Battle Focus does but I think Dark Eldar should have the "run and shoot" ability (I think that's what Battlefocus is) AND for wyches, Charge after Running. In terms of overall speed though, I think the design philosophy should be that if a unit does not have access to a transport of some kind, jetbikes or hoverboards, it should have 12 inch movement (Talos should totally have something akin to "Monstrous Beast" type. Tell me that bag of flesh isn't a monstrous beast). Nothing in this codex should have any less, and completely do away with heavy and salvo weapons. Conversely, to balance this out, ranged weapons should have short ranges, to encourage more "drive by shootings", which fits the theme of Dark Eldar and their Raiding tendencies. It also cuts down on a problem often cited against the tau, namely that they can backtrack and still shoot people since their guns still have ridiculously long range on the move.

Personally, I think Wyches should have something akin to flyers in that you can only ever fire Snapshots at them unless you have a specific rule that overrides it (what rule this would be without totally upheaving the core rules is beyond me though). Wyches are suppose to be insanely fast and rely on dodging rather than armor, so it should be represented in the rules. I don't actually want them to do this though, because functionally it makes wyches totally usurp Wracks in the role of "insanely durable troops" and takes away one of the primary reasons why Wyches are hard to play.

Blast/template would be unavoidable to the fast ladies right? In terms of fluff and rules the imperial assassins have a 4+ inv save due to reflexes so why not wyches?

Well Wyches don't have the same training that Assassins do. A regular 5++ outside of combat would be fine for their price.

Assuming they don't have that. I haven't seen anyone talking about them since they took away their Haywire grenades, which was why anyone took them in the first place.