I will be first to admit I have not really got into AOS but I do feel like I would like to give it a shot but I have a big concern over getting my head to buy into it. I had a lot of mental investment and attachment to the WHFB setting and to the current 40k but much of that is from the depth of the background to both. The society, the cultures, the normal everyday existence of the people that inhabit the setting.
I don't seem to be seeing that kind of depth to AOS, am I missing something obvious? Is there fluff describing the culture in the various realms? Are there normal people etching out a life there amidst the conflict or is it all just "this faction is fighting that faction to capture this thing or this place"?
Its been running now for quite some time and I really haven't seen much as to what the life is like in these places. We know about the warriors but is there nothing more?
There's incidental stuff so far, but mainly because the battles have been the big focus.
Haven't read it myself, but apparently the Fyreslayers 'tome and BL novel give the first proper background on a 'mortal' race in the realms.
AoS isn't even a year old yet, and it's obvious GW are following the timeline across all releases, so there will be expansion, just a question of when rather than if.
Its showing in fits and starts, its just really bad. poorly written and uninspiring. Also a big departure from previous warhammer. I really wouldnt classify AoS as a successor to warhammer but more of a complete retcon with the same characters and modifications to previous belief especially the part where the winds of magic somehow turned into complete "mortal" realms instead of just being aspects of the realms of chaos.
thekingofkings wrote: Its showing in fits and starts, its just really bad. poorly written and uninspiring. Also a big departure from previous warhammer. I really wouldnt classify AoS as a successor to warhammer but more of a complete retcon with the same characters and modifications to previous belief especially the part where the winds of magic somehow turned into complete "mortal" realms instead of just being aspects of the realms of chaos.
but has there really been ANY suggestion of a culture? People other than warriors? An economy? Trade?
thekingofkings wrote: Its showing in fits and starts, its just really bad. poorly written and uninspiring. Also a big departure from previous warhammer. I really wouldnt classify AoS as a successor to warhammer but more of a complete retcon with the same characters and modifications to previous belief especially the part where the winds of magic somehow turned into complete "mortal" realms instead of just being aspects of the realms of chaos.
but has there really been ANY suggestion of a culture? People other than warriors? An economy? Trade?
Yes, lots of Cultures (villages, cities, kingdoms etc) have been featured in the novels, to varying degrees of detail. Most have been or are in the process of being conquered though, so understandably there hasn't been much information on how they function in peace time. Some people say the Fireslayers have been the first to really showcase that.
but has there really been ANY suggestion of a culture? People other than warriors? An economy? Trade?
so far all the books only talk about the fight of the stormcast against chaos and that's all. Any mention of mortals that don't follow chaos are very few, but the over all sense is that no. No culture, economy, trade, anything. They are too busy just trying to run/hide/survive at this point. What little of society that is left has devolved into a kind of scattered tribal society that doesn't trust any kind of outsiders.
The most mention of non-chaos mortals is in the 2nd audio drama, but the interaction is minimal.
Havent read the Fyerslayer book yet so cannot comment on that
but has there really been ANY suggestion of a culture? People other than warriors? An economy? Trade?
so far all the books only talk about the fight of the stormcast against chaos and that's all. Any mention of mortals that don't follow chaos are very few, but the over all sense is that no. No culture, economy, trade, anything. They are too busy just trying to run/hide/survive at this point. What little of society that is left has devolved into a kind of scattered tribal society that doesn't trust any kind of outsiders.
The most mention of non-chaos mortals is in the 2nd audio drama, but the interaction is minimal.
Havent read the Fyerslayer book yet so cannot comment on that
That's not really all. I don't know if you've read all the Quick Reads as well but we get to see/hear about a number of cities and kingdoms with normal people in them. It's just that most of them are on the brink of being conquered by Chaos and so the human characters tend to die pretty fast...
If you are looking for detailed information of the people not participating in battles from the campaign and battletome books you will find very little to no information about them.
Does Warhammer Fantasy Battle actually go into depth on economy. trade, and what else not-related to those participating in the war? I can see the RPG supplements or novels going into those aspects, but that type of information seems rather slim in the army books and supplements directly related to the tabletop war game.
Mymearan wrote: That's not really all. I don't know if you've read all the Quick Reads as well but we get to see/hear about a number of cities and kingdoms with normal people in them. It's just that most of them are on the brink of being conquered by Chaos and so the human characters tend to die pretty fast...
Ah, I had forgotten about the quick reads that came out. I'll have to check them out now.
What's important to remember is that AoS isn't even a year old yet and there's a lot GW can do to expand on the overall background of the game.
I haven't read anything past Gates of Azyr, Black Rift 1st short story and reading Fyreslayers anthology now, four short stories. I've heard mixed things so I'm not challenging anyone but I am genuinely curious about the guys who don't like it as to why. It's an evolving discussion.
Truth be told, I didn't care for any of the fluff at first but that was probably because it is such a departure from a world I knew so well and have been reading material from for 18-19 years, plus not playing it as often as 8th kept the fluff from sticking in my head and being reinforced through actual playing it out on the table. I'm fortunate to have a friend with all the AoS fiction I can borrow a I go along but finding unsatisfied readers is not too uncommon so I'm just curious as to what problems arise in the fiction.
I am like you Original Poster. Can't get into it because for me the fluff is not there. What about the peoples? What about the inhabitants who live in all the realms.
I don't want to buy $100 books to read fluff that is just about Stormcast Eternals because they don't interest me. I want to know about the realms and all that.
But the starter boxes have helped me get into it a bit. Funny it's not the Chaos or Sigmar that is getting me in Age of Sigmar but the nice priced sets.
Sadly I don't see any starter sets for Chaos or Sigmar or Dwarves. That might have gotten me into Sigmar more but alas it seems GW wants us paying full price for those.
Davor wrote: I am like you Original Poster. Can't get into it because for me the fluff is not there. What about the peoples? What about the inhabitants who live in all the realms.
The Fyreslayers novel has quite a bit about this, from what MongooseMatt said.
I don't want to buy $100 books to read fluff that is just about Stormcast Eternals because they don't interest me. I want to know about the realms and all that.
Unfortunately, you're going to be hearing a lot about the Stormcast Eternals because as of this point only the Realm of Azyr(where Sigmar and the Stormcast Eternals are based) was really spared the wrath of Chaos when it became resurgent. Right now? We've got a world in flux. The Stormcast are effectively "liberating" the various Realms, or at least making contact with the holdouts present in the other Realms.
But the starter boxes have helped me get into it a bit. Funny it's not the Chaos or Sigmar that is getting me in Age of Sigmar but the nice priced sets.
Yeah, the Start Collecting sets are nice but far from comprehensive. And if you're restricting yourself simply to armies that are within those, you're missing the point of AoS.
Sadly I don't see any starter sets for Chaos or Sigmar or Dwarves. That might have gotten me into Sigmar more but alas it seems GW wants us paying full price for those.
Well, yeah? If you want to do Chaos or Stormcast, then you have the starter set which even if you're buying it for one army is still a friggin' great deal. Dwarves have JUST came out--you're not going to get an $85 "Start Collecting Set" before they even have a few months to sell the individual sets.
There's also no starter set for any of the Elves, Empire, Skaven, Beastmen, or Bretonnians.
I am sick today. I ment to say beside the starting AoS set, (great deal as said) like the other box sets GW is offering in the $250+ I don't think there is any savings there.
Also just because something just comes out doesn't mean GW can't give out great discounts as well.
GW isn't giving details because it's afraid other companies will release models before them the whole chapter house case is why they killed wfb in the first place it was to generic for them to do anything in court.
For the same reason 40k armies got renamed.
They won't release aelf artwork before the armies out as they are afraid a third party will beat them to market.
will definately wait for something other than the sigmarines. they are imo the absolute worst part of the story. I couldnt force myself through gates of azyr, it was just so awfully written and the story just terrible. they should take the name warhammer off of this and just let it die a dignified death instead of this.
I think you have to assume that while in theory all the legacy armies' societies have been quietly continuing their existence in hidden parts of the orbital space station, eventually GW will revise everything.
For example the Lizard Men have changed from being a bunch of Mayan/Aztec-inspired meso-American dudes with dinosaurs to a magic space-borne teleporting strike force that lives on sort of craft worlds or perhaps O'Neill space colonies orbitting the orbital space station.
I do recommend the audio drama series I personally think its the best audio story black library has done so far. Yes it has stormcast but you really feel for the lord celestant and the unreliable vampire at the end.
I'm half way through the Fyreslayers novel atm and the first story was awesome. The second wasn't bad, however neither one had anything about other people, they mention other lodges but nothing more so far.
thekingofkings wrote: Its showing in fits and starts, its just really bad. poorly written and uninspiring. Also a big departure from previous warhammer. I really wouldnt classify AoS as a successor to warhammer but more of a complete retcon with the same characters and modifications to previous belief especially the part where the winds of magic somehow turned into complete "mortal" realms instead of just being aspects of the realms of chaos.
I get that people aren't going to see eye to eye on everything, but I think people are letting emotion cloud judgment when it comes to assessing the quality of the new fiction. I read a lot of the Warhammer World fiction and while I certainly enjoyed it I would never describe it as high quality. I put most of the Age of Sigmar fiction in that category too- interesting, enjoyable, but nothing I'd get confused for really high quality fiction. That's ok. Sometimes you want to watch The Seventh Seal, and sometimes you want to watch The Fast and the Furious.
But I just don't see the drop in quality that some have proclaimed.
And on a side note- I'm one story in to the Slayer fiction, and it is pretty darn cool.
I can see where you are coming from, but I came into this wanting real hard to love AoS, but there is a massive disparity in quality, comparing ADB to gav thorpe level bad, and the appalling amount of errors that any editor worthwhile should have caught, even ignoring that, the story is just weak, far too weak for the talent that GW has available.
Might have to agree to disagree on that, but I'm not going to throw a fit if you don't like it.
For me, some of my favorite was the advent fiction, but that isn't uncommon for me with Black Library fiction. I think the "cool idea, okay execution" level at which I tend to rate Black Library works at its best in shorter stories. Godless, Demon of the Deep, and The Unending Storm were highlights.
I listened to the audio dramas too, and though I don't think that format was for me, it was cool to get a glimpse of societies in the Realm of Death.
If there were an easy point to get in and start reading AoS fluff to get a general feel for the setting and all the faces in it.
There should have been a whole page at least for each race in the first campaign book to give a solid overview, not that two page spread that was mostly artwork and a little blurb about each of the 'forces of X' crap.
If I could pick up a novel for a reasonable price and just read it as a self contained story that introduces me to the setting, in a format I can actually read, I'd probably grab it to give it a shot. As far as I am aware though everything GW has put out is hardback so they will be like $40 (AUD) books that look pretty on the shelf but aren't practical as a cheap pulp read (as I expect from any GW or BL stories). If not, it won't be a novel it will be audiodramas or e book short stories I can't read off a real page. I haven't looked too closely at what actual books there are, the slayer ones might be more what I am after but the sigmarines ones all seem to be part of an ongoing narrative as well, if I were invested in the fluff I am sure I'd love that* but I'm not yet invested.
(*I lie, I was very invested in the Heresy series and then BL started throwing out content left right and center with novellas, audiobooks, short stories, e books, limited editions... the shotgun approach to releases killed all interest. I can't imagine myself really enjoying the narrative of AoS even if it were an AMAZING story just because of the formatting.)
The narrative so far is told through the eyes of the Stormcast who are retreading into the Mortal Realms for the first time in an age. That means we have basically no details on anything until the Stormcast encounter it, and it does make the world bland and empty.
It is getting better though.
The Fyreslayer battletome has a lodge of fyreslayers attempt to slay a vampire queen in her dungeon after having their services bought by the "gloom tribes".
- cool!
Battleplans talk of cities (The Ritual) Supply Lines (A Forlorn Hope) and Necropolises filled with treasure (Ambush at the Cursed Temple)
- cool!
I do agree that a page dedicated to each faction would have been great, and that GW horde their ideas with fear of them being translated into miniatures by 3rd parties to the point of stifling the background.
But, it's getting better :-)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
akai wrote: Does Warhammer Fantasy Battle actually go into depth on economy. trade, and what else not-related to those participating in the war? I can see the RPG supplements or novels going into those aspects, but that type of information seems rather slim in the army books and supplements directly related to the tabletop war game.
It never went massively in depth in the army books - but it certainly painted a vivid picture of a world beyond the battles. Here is an opening paragraph from the 8th edition Empire Army book:
"The Empire stretches from the icy Sea of Claws in the north to the soaring Black Mountains in the south. It is a land covered by dense forests and surrounded by mountain ranges, all infested by murderous brigands, foul mutants and ravenous monsters. Isolated against this treacherous backdrop are prosperous cities, where skilled craftsmen and affluent merchants trade their wares, and where brave soldiers and noble statesmen work to safeguard the Empire's future. Beneath this veneer of sophistication, however, the Empire is a brooding land full of ignorance and superstition, where fearful peasants clutch talismans to ward off evil sorceries and appease the gods of old. In stark contrast to the wealthy districts are slums, rife with thieves, vagabonds and heretical cults that prey on their fellow man. All aspects of human endeavor can be found within the Empire, and for every noble hero that walks the streets, there is a murderous cutthroat lurking not far away."
That's just one paragraph - but I'm pretty sure it paints a world more alive than the entire Mortal Realms as of yet. Contrast that with Azyrheim and the Celestial Realm. What do we really know of the people that live there? Are their nobles? Slums? Craftsmen? Peasants? Trade? Brigands? Wares? Superstitions? Wealth or the lack of? - I don't think we want much from the AoS fluff, just a little to set our imaginations on fire like the above paragraph does - heck, reading it gives me countless ideas for scenarios, modelling projects and stories - it also makes me pine for the Old World a little, if I am honest.
akai wrote: Does Warhammer Fantasy Battle actually go into depth on economy. trade, and what else not-related to those participating in the war? I can see the RPG supplements or novels going into those aspects, but that type of information seems rather slim in the army books and supplements directly related to the tabletop war game.
It never went massively in depth in the army books - but it certainly painted a vivid picture of a world beyond the battles. Here is an opening paragraph from the 8th edition Empire Army book:
"The Empire stretches from the icy Sea of Claws in the north to the soaring Black Mountains in the south. It is a land covered by dense forests and surrounded by mountain ranges, all infested by murderous brigands, foul mutants and ravenous monsters. Isolated against this treacherous backdrop are prosperous cities, where skilled craftsmen and affluent merchants trade their wares, and where brave soldiers and noble statesmen work to safeguard the Empire's future. Beneath this veneer of sophistication, however, the Empire is a brooding land full of ignorance and superstition, where fearful peasants clutch talismans to ward off evil sorceries and appease the gods of old. In stark contrast to the wealthy districts are slums, rife with thieves, vagabonds and heretical cults that prey on their fellow man. All aspects of human endeavor can be found within the Empire, and for every noble hero that walks the streets, there is a murderous cutthroat lurking not far away."
That's just one paragraph - but I'm pretty sure it paints a world more alive than the entire Mortal Realms as of yet. Contrast that with Azyrheim and the Celestial Realm. What do we really know of the people that live there? Are their nobles? Slums? Craftsmen? Peasants? Trade? Brigands? Wares? Superstitions? Wealth or the lack of? - I don't think we want much from the AoS fluff, just a little to set our imaginations on fire like the above paragraph does - heck, reading it gives me countless ideas for scenarios, modelling projects and stories - it also makes me pine for the Old World a little, if I am honest.
The quick and simple reply to address your questions - it has a little bit of everything you wrote.
I will quote two short passages -
Azyrheim, Last of the Free Cities "...it is the last great bastion of Order, a walled city, renowned not just for its size and splendour, but also for its citizens. There, communities of mankind, aelf, duardin, and many others dwell. Many came as refugees, fleeing their own embattled realms before Sigmar commanded the Gates of Azyr to be shut. Others trace their line of descent from times more ancient still, bitter remnants of the world that was displaced out of home and time. Although Azyrheim's citizens come from different nations, they are united by a common hatred of Chaos, and by dreams of one day reclaiming their lost lands."
The Defiant Few ..."the mortal people were given free rein to form nations within star-spanning Azyr, and many clung to lost cultures and traditions. Those who had long worshipped Sigmar gathered together into religious war-tribes, wishing to do violence in his name. Dour duardin laboured to construct grand fortresses alongside exiled aelf artisans and human masons, all animosities put aside in the name of survival-that, and the everlasting defiance of the Chaos Gods."
For me, there is enough fluff presented to get the general/idea and direction of the story/setting. It was enough information that I decided that I don't care much for the Stormcast Eternals theme revolving bitterness and revenge. A matter of taste and not necessarily due to a lack of fluff, imo. I can understand people wanting to be immersed with a game's setting and story. For me though, if I want to be immersed into a fantasy setting, novels not tied to selling a game does that for me. Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Age of Sigmar games, was first and foremost, a way that allowed me to play generic fantasy war games in my own homebrew setting--mix and matching different fantasy settings.
akai wrote: Does Warhammer Fantasy Battle actually go into depth on economy. trade, and what else not-related to those participating in the war? I can see the RPG supplements or novels going into those aspects, but that type of information seems rather slim in the army books and supplements directly related to the tabletop war game.
It never went massively in depth in the army books - but it certainly painted a vivid picture of a world beyond the battles. Here is an opening paragraph from the 8th edition Empire Army book:
"The Empire stretches from the icy Sea of Claws in the north to the soaring Black Mountains in the south. It is a land covered by dense forests and surrounded by mountain ranges, all infested by murderous brigands, foul mutants and ravenous monsters. Isolated against this treacherous backdrop are prosperous cities, where skilled craftsmen and affluent merchants trade their wares, and where brave soldiers and noble statesmen work to safeguard the Empire's future. Beneath this veneer of sophistication, however, the Empire is a brooding land full of ignorance and superstition, where fearful peasants clutch talismans to ward off evil sorceries and appease the gods of old. In stark contrast to the wealthy districts are slums, rife with thieves, vagabonds and heretical cults that prey on their fellow man. All aspects of human endeavor can be found within the Empire, and for every noble hero that walks the streets, there is a murderous cutthroat lurking not far away."
That's just one paragraph - but I'm pretty sure it paints a world more alive than the entire Mortal Realms as of yet. Contrast that with Azyrheim and the Celestial Realm. What do we really know of the people that live there? Are their nobles? Slums? Craftsmen? Peasants? Trade? Brigands? Wares? Superstitions? Wealth or the lack of? - I don't think we want much from the AoS fluff, just a little to set our imaginations on fire like the above paragraph does - heck, reading it gives me countless ideas for scenarios, modelling projects and stories - it also makes me pine for the Old World a little, if I am honest.
The quick and simple reply to address your questions - it has a little bit of everything you wrote.
I will quote two short passages -
Azyrheim, Last of the Free Cities "...it is the last great bastion of Order, a walled city, renowned not just for its size and splendour, but also for its citizens. There, communities of mankind, aelf, duardin, and many others dwell. Many came as refugees, fleeing their own embattled realms before Sigmar commanded the Gates of Azyr to be shut. Others trace their line of descent from times more ancient still, bitter remnants of the world that was displaced out of home and time. Although Azyrheim's citizens come from different nations, they are united by a common hatred of Chaos, and by dreams of one day reclaiming their lost lands."
The Defiant Few ..."the mortal people were given free rein to form nations within star-spanning Azyr, and many clung to lost cultures and traditions. Those who had long worshipped Sigmar gathered together into religious war-tribes, wishing to do violence in his name. Dour duardin laboured to construct grand fortresses alongside exiled aelf artisans and human masons, all animosities put aside in the name of survival-that, and the everlasting defiance of the Chaos Gods."
For me, there is enough fluff presented to get the general/idea and direction of the story/setting. It was enough information that I decided that I don't care much for the Stormcast Eternals theme revolving bitterness and revenge. A matter of taste and not necessarily due to a lack of fluff, imo. I can understand people wanting to be immersed with a game's setting and story. For me though, if I want to be immersed into a fantasy setting, novels not tied to selling a game does that for me. Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Age of Sigmar games, was first and foremost, a way that allowed me to play generic fantasy war games in my own homebrew setting--mix and matching different fantasy settings.
Thanks for the response but the paragraphs you provided just highlight what I am talking about rather than answering the problems raised with AoS fluff. Let's compare the two texts:
Geography & Climate The Empire - we learn that the Empire has a sea on its border, mountain ranges surround it, and it is made up of isolated cities surround by dense forest.
Azyr- well they say Azyrheim is the last free city - but then say there are multiple nations across "star-spanning" Azyr. We have no idea of the climate or terrain etc and it seems confusing that with nations to be found across multiple planets there is only one city between them?
Sociology & Culture The Empire - we know there are poor and rich. There is trade. There are nobles. There are killers and outlaws. We know people on the whole are suspicious and ignorant.
Azyr - We know there are multiple races (humans Aelfs and Duardin) and well, there are 2 jobs at least: Aelf Artisans and Human Masons. But with no talk of trade or anything such we don't actually know if this is a society based on money or some communist utopia. These jobs could be racial specific for all we know. They build fortresses but for what reason? Do they have enemies within Azyr? They hold onto past cultures - but presuming you had no experience with AoS - you are not told what those might be. All we know is they put any difference they might have aside with their shared hate of Chaos...
Religion The Empire - people worship (or are afraid of) Old Gods, they have talismans to ward of evil sorceries they believe in.
Azyr - nothing mentioned
It might be too harsh to say AoS fluff is vague and bland. But it is certainly fair to say it is either vague or bland. Vague because the nuances of culture and the background aren't explored or even hinted at like they were in WHFB, or bland because there are no nuances.
hobojebus wrote: It's six months in we should have a much better idea of what the make up of the new universe is.
Part of AoS failing is no one knowing how their armies will turn out.
Your not going to spend money on stuff that no longer exists in the new game.
GW continuing with one of there major issues from fantasy(40k), of players sitting around and waiting for important info.
Who would think it
I could imagine a major release issue was that so much focus was on the downcast And a bit more khorne, lol.
I can't remember a time we didn't have players sitting around on the sidelines waiting for info, often leaving before any real info or update comes.
This extreme focus GW has within there settings, why the backbone of the settings are left to stagnate is worrying from within the hobby for me.
If you don't like Sigmar marines, the setting beats them over your head anyway.
And waiting for something that could be years away doesn't do much for the game now, and seems like another misstep.
With the books being obscene expensive here, no one is even willing to look into the story and universe in greater detail where I am.
GW won't learn !
Thanks for the response but the paragraphs you provided just highlight what I am talking about rather than answering the problems raised with AoS fluff. Let's compare the two texts:
Geography & Climate The Empire - we learn that the Empire has a sea on its border, mountain ranges surround it, and it is made up of isolated cities surround by dense forest.
Azyr- well they say Azyrheim is the last free city - but then say there are multiple nations across "star-spanning" Azyr. We have no idea of the climate or terrain etc and it seems confusing that with nations to be found across multiple planets there is only one city between them?
Sociology & Culture The Empire - we know there are poor and rich. There is trade. There are nobles. There are killers and outlaws. We know people on the whole are suspicious and ignorant.
Azyr - We know there are multiple races (humans Aelfs and Duardin) and well, there are 2 jobs at least: Aelf Artisans and Human Masons. But with no talk of trade or anything such we don't actually know if this is a society based on money or some communist utopia. These jobs could be racial specific for all we know. They build fortresses but for what reason? Do they have enemies within Azyr? They hold onto past cultures - but presuming you had no experience with AoS - you are not told what those might be. All we know is they put any difference they might have aside with their shared hate of Chaos...
Religion The Empire - people worship (or are afraid of) Old Gods, they have talismans to ward of evil sorceries they believe in.
Azyr - nothing mentioned
It might be too harsh to say AoS fluff is vague and bland. But it is certainly fair to say it is either vague or bland. Vague because the nuances of culture and the background aren't explored or even hinted at like they were in WHFB, or bland because there are no nuances.
I agree that there are aspects of AoS fluff that is vague and bland. But it appears that both of us have read the passages somewhat differently. Whether you like one versus the other, I still can easily infer about the AoS Azyrheim background from my quoted passages and also about the Empire from your quoted passage.
- Geography and Climate - Your passage on Empire mentions nothing about climate. I assume since you mentioned it that you infer from the passage what the climate would be like? Likewise, I can infer from the passages of AoS what the climate is like. Having read through the two hardbacks, each place where the battles are being fought, a detailed illustration or map is provided. You can infer very easily the terrain and climate from that, imo. All of these illustrations make me think that these realms resemble more like the Realm of Chaos rather than the Old World.
- Sociology and Culture - I read from the passages that Azyrheim is a mishmash of a group of people that also includes refugees within a major city. I'm not sure what else you need to spark your imagination. Just like any major cities from many any time periods would require a variety of careers (merchants, laborers, police force, etc). Is it that hard to imagine that or do you need it to be spelled out explicitly? The passage that you quoted about the Empire does not do that much either. Empire passage: their are enemies within. The Azyrheim passage, mishmash group united by hatred for Chaos.
Religion - you said nothing mentioned in Azyr...does this not count from what I wrote earlier? "Those who had long worshipped Sigmar gathered together into religious war-tribes"
Does the AoS books provide an encyclopedia of everything about the 8-9 realms and denizens? Nope. Is there enough information that people can infer or get the generally feeling about their setting? For me, yes. For others, apparently not.
Yeah, probably best to agree to disagree. I can get my imagination ticking for Age of Sigmar. In fact I delved into Azyrheim for my army project 'Siegfried's Desperados'. I would say the setting is incomplete however because even some of the most basic questions have gone unanswered.
For example, my army are a band of smugglers and sell-swords, I.e. they work for money. But as far as I am aware we don't even know if Azyrheim is a monetary based society or not - maybe everything is rationed out, or maybe it's a utopia that can provide everything a mortal desires. Who knows?
If you look a few posts back, I acknowledge the setting is getting better as it develops and this is something I am very enthusiastic about. Let us hope all my gripes will eventually be resolved.
hobojebus wrote: How do people even eat that's what confuses me where is the infrastructure needed to support civilization.
Depends on which people you mean, Stormcast don't eat and Bloodbound and Rotbringers are cannibals. Normal people live in cities that presumably have the normal infrastructure associated with it, although we haven't seen an intact city yet afaik.
I think the decision to leave everything in the game from Warhammer has led to a lot of confusion. I am fortunate to be a part of a large group of players that enjoy playing AoS and a lot of our discussions during the games revolve around 'well how does my Empire/Wood Elves/Dark Elves etc fit in with this universe?' The best answer I found is that they do not fit in at all and will eventually all be phased out of the game. It was nice for GW to allow players to use their old models in the new game system, but it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of them don't really 'belong' aesthetically in AoS.
Bottle: yeah, agree to disagree I think (I don't think we are disagreeing that much, maybe writing around each other maybe?). It just seems weird to me that you have issues that Azyrheim's monetary system is not explicitly stated in the official fluff...but have no trouble assuming the Empire's monetary system? It's been a while, but I'm quite sure the core Fantasy Battle book and Army books don't go into that type of detail either. Maybe since the Empire have a remarkable resemblance to an historical nation it is easier to assume/imagine the type of economy?
I have not read through the Age of Sigmar fluff since the Khorne Bloodbound Battletome, so good to hear that GW's material is piquing more interest (a tad bit expensive for me to be an instant purchase). In my homebrew games, the denizens have no idea what is going on in the official fluff and does not know there are 8-9 realms.
The old world had several rpg sources, video games and novels that really fleshed it out, their are ccg's and such as well. It was a very in depth setting that was tied tightly to its mini games. AoS has novels sorta, some sourcebooks and not alot else going for it. it is a very "alien" setting for fantasy, it should have been a complete new setting, new all around, as it is, it is pretty nonsensical. the style of fantasy feels like they went from tolkein to eberron with nothing in between.
hobojebus wrote: How do people even eat that's what confuses me where is the infrastructure needed to support civilization.
Depends on which people you mean, Stormcast don't eat and Bloodbound and Rotbringers are cannibals. Normal people live in cities that presumably have the normal infrastructure associated with it, although we haven't seen an intact city yet afaik.
Cannibalism is not at all sustainable, what happens when you eat all your enemies? With nothing else to eat your culture is going to die off in a couple of generations. Your population will drop rapidly and you will have virtually no capacity to replace the members lost.
As for the normal people that live in normal cities with normal infrastructure... normal infrastructure requires a whole countryside worth of farmland to support those cities. Does that exist? I thought that it was literally a case of the barbarians being at the gates and only people behind the walls were safe.
From whats been said above and what little I have gleaned elsewhere I get the following picture.
- Pretty much everywhere has been overrun by chaos and is being or already has been eaten by cannibals.
- Anyone that hasn't been eaten is holed up in Sigmarville
- The exdwarfs have holded up somewhere else with some odds and sods of elves and humans and are either carrying on as they did before (diggi diggi hole), or are now sell swords (axes?) for hire to anyone with cash.
- Nagash has got his own pad where everyone who dies now ends up?
- elves (all the flavours together) are somewhere doing something but not clear what.
- slann et al are now good demons to be summoned to fight or living in the fantasy equivalent of space stations between the realms?
I also can see that all the styling's of the old world are now being phased out to have a new start, fyre slayers being the new style dwarfs and take it or leave it (now buy the fyre slayers because all the old dwarfs have been eaten or died), I assume new all in one elves with new style will follow. My point being that eventually anything that remains of the old cultures are just going to fade away as the new comes in.
Somewhat. There's some generalizations you're making that may not hold true, as we're still learning things.
There's some indications that some of the realms still have societies not yet entirely overrun. The survivors in Gates of Azyr are a lot farther down on the "barely getting by scale" than some. But there are still a lot of survivors not hiding out in "Sigmarville".
There's a thread of continuity in the races we've seen move forward- the Slann supporting the Seraphon (which we're told is what they always called themselves in their own tongue) are the same Slann from the Old World. The Fyreslayers venerate Grimnir who retains the same characteristics he did in the old world, and oaths, family, gold remain important. There will be other Dwarfs- mention is made of the steam-head guardian, but we've only seen their abandoned cities in Chamon to date.
Khorne Bloodbound faction also maintained slave camps which i assume does everything that is not very "Khorne-like."
Comparing the Grand Alliance of Chaos book to the Warscroll Compendiums, I do think that majority of the Fantasy models will be re-used/re-packaged/re-named for Age of Sigmar. I can see a Grand Alliance Order where we will see the Empire and Bretonnia re-packaged and branded as generic free people divided into Nobility, Knightly Orders, State Regiment, and Peasantry to be used as you wish in the game.
Red_Zeke beat me to it but I'll just throw this out there
I don't know about any of you all but a barrier I'm running into is that this is a brand new world (that does get confusing at times w/some WFB themes) and I've not really ever been in this spot. WFB had 30 Years of development so in *cough cough*1994 a young me joined a game with a universe already existing. Every game I've taken up has already had a universe, WMH, Mantic, even KS games like Robotech already has fluff, of course (though I've just written that off as a loss of $ investment--but let's not go down that road here).
The point is I don't really know what to expect and at what pace. I agree there should be much more developed fluff as this game progresses but as to what scale and rate...the company only has so much staff, I suppose. Hell, if this were before the weekly release schedule I can't even imagine how this would have rolled out. So it would be great to know more, and I'm sure we will, I just honestly don't know what's reasonable and how this process should look. For now, the AoS media I subscribe to has given the good advice that the BL books are essential in fleshing out the world(s) though I've barely touched those yet. I was pleased to see in the Fyreslayers book just a few chapter in and they mention societal structure, different roles, veneration of ancestors and funeral tradition. It seems some of the info is in there.
hobojebus wrote: It's not held back because there isn't enough staff they freelance their writing out its held back so no one else can get the jump on making models.
Which is stupid because a dwarfs a dwarf no matter what special snow flake name you give it, so they can't stop third party models anyway.
I'm not sure that is what's going on in the heads of GW & BL during this process but I'm no mind reader just agree to disagree there. I do agree third party models won't be stopped though, since if someone wants a cheaper or more ascthetically pleasing model they will just buy what they want and use that in games unless said players are playing at WHW.
akai wrote: Bottle: yeah, agree to disagree I think (I don't think we are disagreeing that much, maybe writing around each other maybe?). It just seems weird to me that you have issues that Azyrheim's monetary system is not explicitly stated in the official fluff...but have no trouble assuming the Empire's monetary system? It's been a while, but I'm quite sure the core Fantasy Battle book and Army books don't go into that type of detail either. Maybe since the Empire have a remarkable resemblance to an historical nation it is easier to assume/imagine the type of economy?
Yeah, I don't think we are too far off one another's opinion on the fluff, just differing over how much detail is needed in a wargame setting (and with you running homebrew settings, that's no surprise :-)
I'll be able to go through the 8th Empire Army book in more detail to bring up examples over the weekend. No, there is no section specifically about the economy of the Empire but it is hinted at throughout, whereas it is not hinted at at all in the new Age of Sigmar fluff. I work with what I've got and fill in the blanks, but it would be nice to know if my army fits with the Age of a Sigmar background as GW envision it or not. :-)
maybe to save AoS, they should fire Nick Kyme and forbid him from ever writing again....ever...along with Gav Thorpe and Jervis Johnson (who should be deported to Bhutan where he will never ever helm a game company again, ever) scrap their story, chain Aaron Dembski-Bowden to a desk with hot pockets, red bull and water then tell him "fix this drivel. for the love of all thats holy in gaming restore the grimdark to this setting"
its cartoonish and silly in an anime sort of way. no real sense of impending doom, just endless armies reincarnating and fighting over mmo style zones, making old characters in a weird new way. Nagash in his trilogy was a terrifying presence, he almost stole the show in suckmars one trilogy, now he seems just a buffoon.
Yeah, Nagash did not come off well in the audio drama trilogy. No where near the godly powerful, yet patient and ruthlessly clever character of his origin Trilogy, or even his appearances in the End Times books.
It also contradicted his presentation and stated goals in other Age of Sigmar books (the blurb on the previewed Balance of Power page states that he's trying to re-collect his mortarchs, which directly contradicts him rejecting Mannfred when the vampire came groveling to his doorstep, begging to be taken back), though, so I'm not sure whether the audio dramas should really be considered canon in this regard.
Their presentation of Arkhan was also all wrong, but not because he was tremendously out of character or anything, just the voice didn't fit him at all.
Mannfred, at least, was actually pretty good in those stories, recognizable and interesting with a respectable performance for the character, so they weren't a complete loss, I guess.
I usually dislike vampires and their pop culture renditions, but i really loved them in the old world, neferata was a great book IMO and whats going on now just doesnt really work with all the great time of legends stuff, hell when i first heard "age of suckmar(sigmar, i know but i always hated him as a char) I was hoping a more primitive skirmishy warhammer in the old world, not golden jackarses and savage doofus.
Malisteen wrote: Yeah, Nagash did not come off well in the audio drama trilogy. No where near the godly powerful, yet patient and ruthlessly clever character of his origin Trilogy, or even his appearances in the End Times books.
It also contradicted his presentation and stated goals in other Age of Sigmar books (the blurb on the previewed Balance of Power page states that he's trying to re-collect his mortarchs, which directly contradicts him rejecting Mannfred when the vampire came groveling to his doorstep, begging to be taken back), though, so I'm not sure whether the audio dramas should really be considered canon in this regard.
Their presentation of Arkhan was also all wrong, but not because he was tremendously out of character or anything, just the voice didn't fit him at all.
Mannfred, at least, was actually pretty good in those stories, recognizable and interesting with a respectable performance for the character, so they weren't a complete loss, I guess.
To your point i admit I do wonder where the audio dramas fit in the timeline. Since they were spread out my assumption is they were before the big campaign books, although I don't have them all so not exacyly sure where Nagash does [removed due to spoiler] but who knows. More audio drama series are coming, one very, very soon. I didn't like his voice at first listen but eventually powered through the dramas back to back and the voice grew on me. Just so many actors repeat across many titles so I know there's a limit but sometimes it's distracting.
I do get that WHFB had 30 years to build fluff, but a lot of that was redundant. I don't know if it was for legal reasons or just omitted, but they still haven't given a write up of all the existing armies. Most intro books for a table-top wargame (including previous GW books) Have a few paragraphs and pictures of each army. They detail who they are, where they are, who they fight, what they stand for or represent, and their weapons of war. Flipping through the mighty battles book, there are sparse representations of anything outside of the starter armies. (hints at Fyreslayers, Seraphon, Sylvaneth, and Undead,)
To put it another way, I know more from the released books about Aleguzzler Gargants then I do about brettonia. If I played brettonia, I think I would like to know more about where they are at, so I could forge the narrative with my army. I think I would also like to know if my army even exists!
That more then anything is the Crux of the issue. What armies and units are still going to get support, and what armies are getting canned.The only Empire models they have shown are battle priests and Flagellants. What about elves? What about the old Dwarf line? are the ogres moving over whole cloth, or just some of the units? I see a lot about Nagash, what about Settra and the Tomb kings?
I don't think any of this is an issue if you want to play any army that has a picture or mention in the current fluff, of course. I just don't think telling the so-called "legacy" players that they have to wait a year and a half to see if they can even fit their army into the current game, rules notwithstanding. I can use the brettonian rules, but in a scenario and plot driven game with no points, having an army or unit that no longer fits in it is kinda bad.
I think they should just bite the bullet and show their cards.
VeteranNoob wrote: To your point i admit I do wonder where the audio dramas fit in the timeline. Since they were spread out my assumption is they were before the big campaign books, although I don't have them all so not exacyly sure where Nagash does [removed due to spoiler] but who knows. More audio drama series are coming, one very, very soon. I didn't like his voice at first listen but eventually powered through the dramas back to back and the voice grew on me. Just so many actors repeat across many titles so I know there's a limit but sometimes it's distracting.
Yeah, Nagash's voice was not what I expected or wanted, but it grew on me by the end.
Spoiler:
Didn't forgive the way the story portrayed him as a petulent, self-destructive child without any cleverness or guile, acting completely opposed to his own interests, nor the way it portrayed his command over the dead as so much weaker than Sigmar's that even in his inner sanctum, at the very seat of his power he couldn't hold onto even a handful of Stormcast souls.
Arkhan's voice, on the other hand... no. That's all wrong. Too deep, too throaty, and way, way too british. It was a voice for a Merlin or a Gandalf or a Dumbledore, an old but very much alive english wizard. Not a voice for a millennia-old ancient-egyptian skeletal lich. Arkhan's voice needed to be dryer, almost whispered, and with an Egyptian accent. It's a minor complaint next to the characterization problems with Nagash, but it bothered me, as Arkhan is my mortarch of choice.
I'm a long time Chaos Marine player in 40k, Black Legion in particular, so I'm used to the disappointment that comes with hackneyed Black Library authors dumping all over their settings' villains in an attempt to make the heroes seem more invincible and cool, completely oblivious to the basic heroic narrative rule that your heroes are only as heroic as the villains they face are genuinely threatening. It's a major problem with 40k fiction, and it's sad to see the Sigmarines polluting the new fantasy fluff with those same problems.
Hopefully the problems with Nagash's portrayal stay in the audio dramas, and his presentation in future work goes back to the competent and manipulative Nagash of the End Times books.
thekingofkings wrote: The old world had several rpg sources, video games and novels that really fleshed it out, their are ccg's and such as well. It was a very in depth setting that was tied tightly to its mini games. AoS has novels sorta, some sourcebooks and not alot else going for it. it is a very "alien" setting for fantasy, it should have been a complete new setting, new all around, as it is, it is pretty nonsensical. the style of fantasy feels like they went from tolkein to eberron with nothing in between.
This is a great point about development. For those of us really into the WFB universe the RPG material for the first two editions provided some nice fluff for the world if one wanted to write up fluff for one's army or Mordheim gang or whatever. I leave out third Ed. because all of my groups avoided it and stuck with 2nd plus some supplements from 1st. Loved Doomstones!
Way too early to know if there will be an RPG for AoS or if Fantasy Flight might be able to work on some game within the bounds of the new game, as seemingly endless that they are at this point.
VeteranNoob wrote: To your point i admit I do wonder where the audio dramas fit in the timeline. Since they were spread out my assumption is they were before the big campaign books, although I don't have them all so not exacyly sure where Nagash does [removed due to spoiler] but who knows. More audio drama series are coming, one very, very soon. I didn't like his voice at first listen but eventually powered through the dramas back to back and the voice grew on me. Just so many actors repeat across many titles so I know there's a limit but sometimes it's distracting.
Yeah, Nagash's voice was not what I expected or wanted, but it grew on me by the end.
Spoiler:
Didn't forgive the way the story portrayed him as a petulent, self-destructive child without any cleverness or guile, acting completely opposed to his own interests, nor the way it portrayed his command over the dead as so much weaker than Sigmar's that even in his inner sanctum, at the very seat of his power he couldn't hold onto even a handful of Stormcast souls.
Arkhan's voice, on the other hand... no. That's all wrong. Too deep, too throaghty, and way, way too british. It was a voice for a Merlin or a Gandalf or a Dumbledore, an old but very much alive english wizard. Not a voice for a millennia-old ancient-egyptian skeletal lich. Arkhan's voice needed to be dryer, almost whispered, and with an Egyptian accent. It's a minor complaint next to the characterization problems with Nagash, but it bothered me, as Arkhan is my mortarch of choice.
I'm a long time Chaos Marine player in 40k, Black Legion in particular, so I'm used to the disappointment that comes with hackneyed Black Library authors dumping all over their settings' villains in an attempt to make the heroes seem more invincible and cool, completely oblivious to the basic heroic narrative rule that your heroes are only as heroic as the villains they face are genuinely threatening. It's a major problem with 40k fiction, and it's sad to see the Sigmarines polluting the new fantasy fluff with those same problems.
Hopefully the problems with Nagash's portrayal stay in the audio dramas, and his presentation in future work goes back to the competent and manipulative Nagash of the End Times books.
Absolutely agree on the voice mentioned in the spoiler. I'm new-ish still to Dakka and I haven't explored all the different buttons I can use I think given this we should revisit this topic, oh, in say, 3-5 weeks or so
thekingofkings wrote: The old world had several rpg sources, video games and novels that really fleshed it out, their are ccg's and such as well. It was a very in depth setting that was tied tightly to its mini games. AoS has novels sorta, some sourcebooks and not alot else going for it. it is a very "alien" setting for fantasy, it should have been a complete new setting, new all around, as it is, it is pretty nonsensical. the style of fantasy feels like they went from tolkein to eberron with nothing in between.
Less 'Tolkein to Eberron' and more 'Lord of the Rings to Silmarillian', imo. Definitely a more mythical scope. Which I'm personally fine with, but I do agree that, for a new game in a new setting, they really needed to flesh that thing out more at the start. It's very difficult to picture at times, and a lot of the outlandish locations visited don't feel like they existed in the setting before they were first described nor do they feel like they'll continue to exist the moment after the story leaves them. There needed to be a bit more planning put in, or if there was planning put in, then a bit more of that work needed to be shown up front.
thekingofkings wrote: The old world had several rpg sources, video games and novels that really fleshed it out, their are ccg's and such as well. It was a very in depth setting that was tied tightly to its mini games. AoS has novels sorta, some sourcebooks and not alot else going for it. it is a very "alien" setting for fantasy, it should have been a complete new setting, new all around, as it is, it is pretty nonsensical. the style of fantasy feels like they went from tolkein to eberron with nothing in between.
Less 'Tolkein to Eberron' and more 'Lord of the Rings to Silmarillian', imo.
...which is an interesting comparison, because AoS could seriously use that chapter on geography.
Oh certainly. At the same time, Eberron's geography was also pretty well defined from it's initial release, though it was an rpg setting, which has different needs from a minis game setting.
pox wrote: To put it another way, I know more from the released books about Aleguzzler Gargants then I do about brettonia. If I played brettonia, I think I would like to know more about where they are at, so I could forge the narrative with my army. I think I would also like to know if my army even exists!
That more then anything is the Crux of the issue. What armies and units are still going to get support, and what armies are getting canned.The only Empire models they have shown are battle priests and Flagellants. What about elves? What about the old Dwarf line? are the ogres moving over whole cloth, or just some of the units? I see a lot about Nagash, what about Settra and the Tomb kings?
Everything in the core books listed as "free people" would be the fluff related to a-Bretonnian-like faction (nobility and peasantry). A very simplified answer and guess, imo, is that the general theme of armies made for Warhammer Fantasy Battle would have a similar theme/feel in the Age of Sigmar setting as "different factions" within a grand alliance. Tomb King models likely will be listed into a Deathrattle (merging with a section within Vampire Counts) and Reanimants faction in future Grand Alliance supplements. I think the Grand Alliance Chaos book is a good example on how a majority of the miniatures from Fantasy is being incorporated into Age of Sigmar setting. GW have put a "last chance to buy" list on their online store, so that should help those that is waiting on the fence to finish their collection. The warscroll compendiums have a small paragraph each on how models from Fantasy are being Age of Sigmarfied into the current age.
Grand Alliance Chaos: - 21 factions in which 20 of them have ties to WFB models. Varanguard completely new models, Khorne Bloodbound partially new models
Beastmen - The haunted forests and wastelands of the realms are home to savage creatures that live only to trample and despoil. Some call them the horned ones, others the true children of Chaos, but to mortal men they are known as Beastmen. When the horns of battle call, the warherds mass alongside their bull-headed brethren to fight alongside the armies of Chaos. The only reward they seek is the chance to wreak utter havoc upon everything in their path.
Daemons - Hellish spawn of the Dark Gods, the daemons of Chaos exist only to corrupt and destroy. They are the foot soldiers of Chaos, malicious entities whose very existence is anathema to the Mortal Realms. Though each Chaos God is served by their own rival daemons, all put aside their difference to invade the Mortal Realms. Only the most courageous can stand before such infernal hordes, and even they stand little chance…
Skaven - Screeching and scrabbling throughout time and space, the skaven gnaw at the fringes of every nation. The Children of the Horned Rat infest the Mortal Realms much as vermin infest a sewer, watching, lurking and sniffing out opportunities to further their vile agendas. They are each desperate to rise above friend and foe alike, and will commit acts of shocking betrayal to do so, for all skaven possess a vicious ingenuity born of a desire for conquest.
Warriors of Chaos - The mortal worshipers of Chaos gather together in warbands mighty enough to conquer entire nations. Though the tyrannical lords lead the armoured hordes believe themselves to be warrior kings born to rule the Mortal Realms with an iron fist, they are bound to higher powers in their turn. In truth, every murderer, monster, and mutant in their armies is but a slave to darkness and a puppet of the Dark Gods.
Grand Alliance Order - Stormcast Eternals and Fyreslayer Duardins two new factions with completely new models.
Free People (Bretonnia and Empire) - In fair Sigmaron the free people of humanity gather, preserving heraldry and cultural traditions from civilizations ground beneath the weight of unceasing strike. The clamour of warlike souls fills the heavens, united in Sigmar's name. Though some of these lost tribes have been driven from their homelands, and others cast adrift on the tides of time, every soul amongst them dreams of wreaking revenge upon the forces of Chaos.
Aelf Exiles (Dark Elves) - Embittered and cruel, the aelf Exiles roam the Mortal Realms bringing death to every foe they meet. These swift and vicious warriors are ostensibly allies of Sigmar. In truth, they serve only the shadowy Malerion, and themselves. Emerging from the darkened places of the realms, the Exile warbands engage in lightning raids that leave ravaged corpses piled high in their wake. Then they vanish as quickly as they came, like smoke melting away on the breeze.
Dispossesed Duardins (Dwarf) - The air rings with cannon fire and booming Khazalid hymns as the Dispossessed go to war. No more resolute or resilient force is there in all the Mortal Realms, and when these duardin set forth from the gates of Azyrheim the ground shakes to their marching tread. The Dispossessed have lost everything they held dear to the servants of Chaos. All these duardin have left is their grudges, and they fight harder than ever to see them avenged.
Aelf Highborns (High Elves) - Once, the aelf Highborn were mighty. They ruled, proud and regal, over glittering cities and wonders beyond count. All of that is gone now. In place of their lost lands the Highborn have only the endless war against Chaos. Though they defend enclaves throughout the Mortal Realms, the greatest concentration of Highborn dwells in Azyrheim. Here they fight for Sigmar's alliance, raising militia armies to hold back the tides of darkness.
Seraphon (Lizardmen) - The Seraphon are beings of order, creatures of the stars whose minds and bodies sing with Azyrite energy. They are the sworn enemies of Chaos, ever-opposed to the Dark Gods and the bedlam they bring. The cold-blooded savagery of the Seraphon is legendary. Directed by the inscrutable slann, their tightly disciplined cohorts and roaring saurian beasts tear through their enemies with the ferocity of true predators.
Aelf Wanderers and Sylvaneth (Wood Elves) - Amid the forests of the Mortal Realms, aelven peoples roam at will. Travelling in nomadic warbands led by mighty heroes and mages, these wanderers deal swift death to their enemies wherever they may be found. The aelves of the deep woods are servants of order, with a strange bond to the sylvaneth--yet they are also capricious beings and lethal wayfarers, who are swift to exact a toll in blood from any who would wrong them.
Grand Alliance Death Reanimants and Deathrattle (Tomb Kings) - The lands of the dead are home to revenant armies, and amongst them are the phalanxes of the Tomb Kings. Those undying legions are led to war by megalomaniacal conquerors whose dynasty stretches across the aeons. Beside serried ranks of skeletons and chariots fight stone-hard reanimants and creatures from the barren deserts of the afterlife. When bound to the will of Nagash and the other masters of death, the Tomb Kings are unstoppable.
Flesh-Eater, Malignants, Deathrattle (Vampire Counts) - In the war-torn Mortal Realms, the unquiet dead are plentiful indeed. Some have the power to bind the slain to their will, from the most bestial corpse to the most kingly of spectres. Their revenant armies walk abroad in every realm, grave-cold blades hacking into warm flesh whenever their masters seek dominion over the living. None can rival Nagash, the Great Necromancer - even Sigmar himself has cause to fear his name.
Grand Alliance Destruction Ogors (Ogre Kingdoms) - The hulking ogors are obsessed with two things - eating and fighting. Given the chance, they will indulge in both at the same time. Emerging from their lairs in cave networks, mountainsides and tumbled ruins, the ravenous ogors and their savage beasts go to war in every Mortal Realm. Brutish and dense, a single ogor can flatten a dwelling-place, whilst a rampaging horde of the gluttonous bullies can topple an entire city.
Greenskin (Orcs & Goblins) - Nothing slaps a grin onto a greenskin's face like a good bit of smashing stuff up. Whether thuggish orruks or sneaky grots, drunken gargants or dumb-as-rock troggoths, all live for the day the Great Waagh! Is declared. Part holy crusade, part anarchic riot, the Great Waagh! Sweeps across the realms laying waste to all in its path. So do the greenskins worship Gorkamorka, through total destruction and indiscriminate mayhem.
Edit: While a defined map for all the realms are not present, there are illustrated maps of the areas where the ongoing narrative is taking place.
Unfortunately the Free People fluff from the compendium is already confusing because it states they live in/on Sigmaron, but unless I am mistaken, Sigmaron is the space station orbiting Mallus (The Twin Tailed Comet/The Old World). We had a thread on this previously ('Do the Empire now live in a Space Station?')
Edit - looking into this now, looks like I was confusing Sigmaron and Sigmarion. Sigmarion is the space station, and Sigmaron is a "palace-city" (White Dwarf #76 p.29) - although Azyrheim is described as the "last city", but whatever, there's also another not-city (a palace city) called Sigmaron and all the brets and empires live inside its walls I guess...
Bottle - I view Sigmaron like a military base within a city. Inside the base there are houses for military family, convenience stores, etc, in which you could raised a family without the need to leave the base. So Sigmaron the Palace City or Stronghold is within the city of Azyrheim. I am looking at the White Dwarf you cited, and I don't see "Sigmarion" listed on that page. Different language White Dwarf? (USA White Dwarf for me).
I assume the names Empire and Bretonnia will likely not be used in the Age of Sigmar setting, but collectively as the free people which includes tribal people. Specific factions within the free people; however will likely "emphasized the heraldry and cultural traditions" of the Empire and Bretonnia.
For those worrying about place of Warhammer Fantasy armies this is an interesting (fluffwise I feel it is a poor cop-out by GW) text from Page 71 of the first hardback book related to Azyrheim: "...refugees from all realms had fled there. The newcomers swelled what was already a vast and diverse population that included entire armies from the world-that-was."
That page citation was for Sigmaron (and its description as a palace-city) rather than Sigmarion. I took the two different spellings from the Lexicanum on the Internet, but it looks like they have made a mistake. What is the name of the space station around Mallus? And what happens there?
Edit: I'm looking through the Empire 8th Edition Army book currently too - and there is so much great information (too much to type up). There is a whole section titled "Citizens of the Empire" where it goes into regional differences from everything including dialects to building materials and architectural styles. There is also plenty of information on merchants, trade and economic rivalries including a section on Marienburg securing its independence by making an massive payment in gold to the Imperial Coffers.
It's definitely not conjecture or guess-work that makes the Empire seem so real even from reading just the Army Book.
I think I am coming across as too much a naysayer in this thread - I am embracing Age of Sigmar whole heartedly - I have been painting miniatures for it and playing it constantly since July. I have made my own custom Battletome full of fluff and background for my army too. I acknowledge that the lore is getting better, and I am very enthusiastic about that. I think I might buy 'The Balance of Power' as there are now enough of my favorite factions in it to make it interesting...
But it is still very frustrating to not even know some basic principles of the world.
Bottom - I'm not 100% sure if the ring built around Mallus has a name. On the ring itself are "celestial palaces built of stone"...'so large only a Gighemoth could heft them."
"The Broken World" is underneath the great palace of Sigmar. So I would think the ring with palaces + the palace on top of Mallus altogether is Sigmaron.
So the Empire and Brets are on the Space Station? :-p
I think the fact that we're all having to discuss what's what is testament to it being too vague. Although I am picking stuff together from the many White Dwarfs I have bought to learn more about the Mortal Realms. If there is a section in one of the big books about Azyerheim - Sigmaron and the many inhabitants of both places I would be grateful to hear what they say as I do not have any of the big books yet.
The space station is pretty freaking huge to my understanding. Might as well be a moon, one might say. Plenty of room for multiple distinct civilizations.
But as for the specifics of where the AoS's bret and empire stand ins are located, should they exist, that isn't clear yet.
However, given that we've now seen a Grand Alliance of Chaos book with nearly every old faction and model represented, I think at the moment it's probably safe to assume the designers will find some place for them, to keep the models and rules valid.
Whether they ever see new models or rules in the future, that's more doubtful.
I wonder if they'll fill out the fluff much before they abandon AoS due to low sales, I imagine they'll release what's already been printed then ignore it like Lord of the rings.
While we're on the subject of the empire, does anyone know what happened to the gods worshipped in the empire? I know that Morr was killed by Nagash in the end times and of course Sigmar is still around, but I haven't seen any mention of Ulric, Shallya or Taal, and I dare say there were others that I'm forgetting.
hobojebus wrote: I wonder if they'll fill out the fluff much before they abandon AoS due to low sales, I imagine they'll release what's already been printed then ignore it like Lord of the rings.
It's very unlikely to be abandoned. If so, it won't be for several years.
Bottle wrote: So the Empire and Brets are on the Space Station? :-p
I think the fact that we're all having to discuss what's what is testament to it being too vague. Although I am picking stuff together from the many White Dwarfs I have bought to learn more about the Mortal Realms. If there is a section in one of the big books about Azyerheim - Sigmaron and the many inhabitants of both places I would be grateful to hear what they say as I do not have any of the big books yet.
Well, it would help greatly with discussion if you are comparing fluff between Fantasy Battle big books to the Age of Sigmar big books...to actually have read the big books! If you are looking for the Age of Sigmar books to give the same type of information that the Fantasy main book and supplements give, you will not get it.
My guess is that for the Grand Alliance Order - the free people will be divided in a similar way as the Warriors of Chaos/Daemons/Skaven/Beastmen were given in Age of Sigmar: Knightly Orders, State Regiment. Nobility. Peasantry.
thekingofkings wrote: The old world had several rpg sources, video games and novels that really fleshed it out, their are ccg's and such as well. It was a very in depth setting that was tied tightly to its mini games. AoS has novels sorta, some sourcebooks and not alot else going for it. it is a very "alien" setting for fantasy, it should have been a complete new setting, new all around, as it is, it is pretty nonsensical. the style of fantasy feels like they went from tolkein to eberron with nothing in between.
This is a great point about development. For those of us really into the WFB universe the RPG material for the first two editions provided some nice fluff for the world if one wanted to write up fluff for one's army or Mordheim gang or whatever. I leave out third Ed. because all of my groups avoided it and stuck with 2nd plus some supplements from 1st. Loved Doomstones!
Way too early to know if there will be an RPG for AoS or if Fantasy Flight might be able to work on some game within the bounds of the new game, as seemingly endless that they are at this point.
VeteranNoob wrote: To your point i admit I do wonder where the audio dramas fit in the timeline. Since they were spread out my assumption is they were before the big campaign books, although I don't have them all so not exacyly sure where Nagash does [removed due to spoiler] but who knows. More audio drama series are coming, one very, very soon. I didn't like his voice at first listen but eventually powered through the dramas back to back and the voice grew on me. Just so many actors repeat across many titles so I know there's a limit but sometimes it's distracting.
Yeah, Nagash's voice was not what I expected or wanted, but it grew on me by the end.
Spoiler:
Didn't forgive the way the story portrayed him as a petulent, self-destructive child without any cleverness or guile, acting completely opposed to his own interests, nor the way it portrayed his command over the dead as so much weaker than Sigmar's that even in his inner sanctum, at the very seat of his power he couldn't hold onto even a handful of Stormcast souls.
Arkhan's voice, on the other hand... no. That's all wrong. Too deep, too throaghty, and way, way too british. It was a voice for a Merlin or a Gandalf or a Dumbledore, an old but very much alive english wizard. Not a voice for a millennia-old ancient-egyptian skeletal lich. Arkhan's voice needed to be dryer, almost whispered, and with an Egyptian accent. It's a minor complaint next to the characterization problems with Nagash, but it bothered me, as Arkhan is my mortarch of choice.
I'm a long time Chaos Marine player in 40k, Black Legion in particular, so I'm used to the disappointment that comes with hackneyed Black Library authors dumping all over their settings' villains in an attempt to make the heroes seem more invincible and cool, completely oblivious to the basic heroic narrative rule that your heroes are only as heroic as the villains they face are genuinely threatening. It's a major problem with 40k fiction, and it's sad to see the Sigmarines polluting the new fantasy fluff with those same problems.
Hopefully the problems with Nagash's portrayal stay in the audio dramas, and his presentation in future work goes back to the competent and manipulative Nagash of the End Times books.
Absolutely agree on the voice mentioned in the spoiler. I'm new-ish still to Dakka and I haven't explored all the different buttons I can use I think given this we should revisit this topic, oh, in say, 3-5 weeks or so
I dont believe FFG will touch this turd with a 10 foot pole.
hobojebus wrote: I wonder if they'll fill out the fluff much before they abandon AoS due to low sales, I imagine they'll release what's already been printed then ignore it like Lord of the rings.
It's very unlikely to be abandoned. If so, it won't be for several years.
It's a pretty big flop and GW has a proven track record where flops are concerned, look no further than the hobit.
Continuing to release stuff for a game selling far less than the one it replaced is throwing good money after bad, already we've seen they can't sell limited edition books for AoS they've had to give them out free, dwarves either didn't get one or they didn't release it to avoid embarrassment.
They'll release stuff already made but once that's done it'll be left to wither and die.
I doubt AoS will be around long enough to answer our lore questions.
Sadly with GW's decision to focus on epic battles in magical places with contrived names, there's no longer a place for subtlety and real world building.
Just looked at a PDF of the 6th edition Dwarf armybook. From that I can learn...
-A brief but in-depth history of the Dwarf race.
-What exactly are Slayers or the Engineer's Guild, etc? What do they do and why do they exist?
-Who are some of the most renowned heroes and leaders in Dwarf history? Why are they so famous and revered?
-What's the Dwarf language like? The alphabet? Examples of words and sentences?
-Detailed descriptions of Dwarf holds like Karak Azgal, Barak Varr, etc. What are they known for? What have they gone through?
-What is Dwarf society like? What is expected of them? Why will they go to war? What are Dwarfs living in The Empire like?
Sadly I don't think GW has the talent anymore to come up with new worlds like this. And if they did I doubt they would be given the creative freedom to do so with how the studio design process has been leaked to be like.
Instead we'll just get more of Vandus Hammerhand smiting Goretide left and right in an enormous battle that most men would have given up on, but not the Stormcast. Because they are demi-gods among men clad in Sigmarite armor, and they know no fear.
Heh, well I didn't want to quote it verbatim. But now that I've been exposed, this is something I read from the free excerpt of "Vengeance Eternal", a story about the Stormcast Eternals.
"Mortal warriors might have balked at being thrown back into the war so quickly, but these demigods were no mortals; they were giants, forged for war and destined for battle."
If you replaced "God-King" with "Emperor" and "Stormcast" with "Astartes", this story could very honestly be mistaken for Space Marines. The choice of words, terminology, imagery, dialogue by the Stormcasts themselves is all very, very 40K.
Heh, well I didn't want to quote it verbatim. But now that I've been exposed, this is something I read from the free excerpt of "Vengeance Eternal", a story about the Stormcast Eternals.
"Mortal warriors might have balked at being thrown back into the war so quickly, but these demigods were no mortals; they were giants, forged for war and destined for battle."
If you replaced "God-King" with "Emperor" and "Stormcast" with "Astartes", this story could very honestly be mistaken for Space Marines. The choice of words, terminology, imagery, dialogue by the Stormcasts themselves is all very, very 40K.
And this is why I can't get into Sigmarines. I don't know why, I just don't like it. Talk about GW regurgitating their stuff now.. If anything, at least GW is ripping themselves off instead of other IPs this time around.
At least their starter sets and everything else besides Sigmarines is good and getting me interested.
hobojebus wrote: I wonder if they'll fill out the fluff much before they abandon AoS due to low sales, I imagine they'll release what's already been printed then ignore it like Lord of the rings.
It's very unlikely to be abandoned. If so, it won't be for several years.
It's a pretty big flop and GW has a proven track record where flops are concerned, look no further than the hobit.
Continuing to release stuff for a game selling far less than the one it replaced is throwing good money after bad, already we've seen they can't sell limited edition books for AoS they've had to give them out free, dwarves either didn't get one or they didn't release it to avoid embarrassment.
They'll release stuff already made but once that's done it'll be left to wither and die.
I doubt AoS will be around long enough to answer our lore questions.
Let's just agree to disagree. I'll get back to you in a few years and we'll see whose wishful thinking is proven true.
I think they should just bite the bullet and show their cards.
I think you can blame chapterhouse et al for this. GW have had their fingers burnt in terms of IP, so the days of stuff being trailed months before a physical product are done.
It's not ideal, but it's a glass half full / half empty scenario. On the one hand, Dark Elf players have no clear idea what's going on other than a synopsis of what Malerion's up to and recent mentions of 'the shadowkin'.
On the other, no news is good news on the mini front. It means stuff is coming *because* there is no imagery for it.
Quantum physics in gaming. Whodathunk?
I think they should just bite the bullet and show their cards.
I think you can blame chapterhouse et al for this. GW have had their fingers burnt in terms of IP, so the days of stuff being trailed months before a physical product are done.
It's not ideal, but it's a glass half full / half empty scenario. On the one hand, Dark Elf players have no clear idea what's going on other than a synopsis of what Malerion's up to and recent mentions of 'the shadowkin'.
On the other, no news is good news on the mini front. It means stuff is coming *because* there is no imagery for it.
Quantum physics in gaming. Whodathunk?
I'm not sure it's fair to blame Chapterhouse but would rather attribute it to GW's own incompetence/stupidity.
GW makes rules for something, gives us artwork for it, and then doesn't make a model. Now we don't know when or even if GW will make that model, so someone else makes it (legally). If GW weren't trying to use the codex model to make people re buy the rules every few years it would be easy to just release the rules alongside the model when it is ready (what I assume will be happening with AoS).
I think the problem has nothing to do with GW getting their fingers burnt and everything to do with GW perceiving themselves to have had their fingers burnt because they were overconfident and not actually understanding the way IP law works in that scenario.
I think they should just bite the bullet and show their cards.
I think you can blame chapterhouse et al for this. GW have had their fingers burnt in terms of IP, so the days of stuff being trailed months before a physical product are done.
It's not ideal, but it's a glass half full / half empty scenario. On the one hand, Dark Elf players have no clear idea what's going on other than a synopsis of what Malerion's up to and recent mentions of 'the shadowkin'.
On the other, no news is good news on the mini front. It means stuff is coming *because* there is no imagery for it.
Quantum physics in gaming. Whodathunk?
I'm not sure it's fair to blame Chapterhouse but would rather attribute it to GW's own incompetence/stupidity.
GW makes rules for something, gives us artwork for it, and then doesn't make a model. Now we don't know when or even if GW will make that model, so someone else makes it (legally). If GW weren't trying to use the codex model to make people re buy the rules every few years it would be easy to just release the rules alongside the model when it is ready (what I assume will be happening with AoS).
I think the problem has nothing to do with GW getting their fingers burnt and everything to do with GW perceiving themselves to have had their fingers burnt because they were overconfident and not actually understanding the way IP law works in that scenario.
Sorry, poor choice of words on my part - but the intended meaning was as you described.
I agree that things are vague for legal reasons, I also feel it does more harm then good to the game and company.
A lot of other products have to deal with knock-offs and mod kits, some of them can protect IP and sue, other cannot. (cars, motorcycles, and fashion for instance.)
The options are to either market the name, ensuring quality that way. Harley-Davidson is well aware of after market sales, and because cars are considered utility anyone is free to make parts that fit. In the past they have worked with the companies, and eventually came out with their Screamin' Eagle line of aftermarket parts, emblazoned with their logo.
Fashion is even harder, they can't be protected at all. That's why the designer name and logo are so important in that industry, its the only thing that can get a copyright.
What boggles my mind is GW is already in the right place to leverage against these knock-offs. It's their IP that's so valuable, along with the quality of their mini's and their production/shipping schedules are top notch. (I'm talking about QC and manufacturing specifically, not aesthetics.)
I feel like they could just hype "genuine GamesWorkshop" even more then they do, there are already a number of players who only use GW products including paint and tools. This of course means accepting third party bits and knock-offs, and they already understand the full scope of what they can and can't sue for. (for a personal clarification I didn't agree with what Chapterhouse was doing, but in the end it seemed to mostly have the result of GW being a bully in the gamer collective and did far more harm then good.)
At the end of the day, their tight hold on the narrative and background is doing a ton of damage. I get that some armies will just have generic "heavy cav" and that's it, but it takes away the flavor. I used to have a Knights of Morr empire army, I'm glad I sold that years ago, it would have no place in AoS at all.
This is all assuming that the lack of info is for legal reasons, of course.
I think they should just bite the bullet and show their cards.
I think you can blame chapterhouse et al for this. GW have had their fingers burnt in terms of IP, so the days of stuff being trailed months before a physical product are done.
It's not ideal, but it's a glass half full / half empty scenario. On the one hand, Dark Elf players have no clear idea what's going on other than a synopsis of what Malerion's up to and recent mentions of 'the shadowkin'.
On the other, no news is good news on the mini front. It means stuff is coming *because* there is no imagery for it.
Quantum physics in gaming. Whodathunk?
I'm not sure it's fair to blame Chapterhouse but would rather attribute it to GW's own incompetence/stupidity.
GW makes rules for something, gives us artwork for it, and then doesn't make a model. Now we don't know when or even if GW will make that model, so someone else makes it (legally). If GW weren't trying to use the codex model to make people re buy the rules every few years it would be easy to just release the rules alongside the model when it is ready (what I assume will be happening with AoS).
I think the problem has nothing to do with GW getting their fingers burnt and everything to do with GW perceiving themselves to have had their fingers burnt because they were overconfident and not actually understanding the way IP law works in that scenario.
Hey we agree on something.
That is what I was going to say, but see you said it. Well said.
I dont think changing the names of races to horridly spelled stupid sounding names was a good idea. here listen to Kylo Ren explain it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbLqiKg9JkA Not for kids.
I gave it a good go. I bought the first two AoS leaders limited edition books. Which by the way are beautiful books that look fab on the shelf and to read. I just didn't enjoy them or the setting. I'm not hating on the whole thing it's just not my cup of tea. I like sword and sorcery fantasy but this is far far away from that. As some have said its not, at least the ones I have read, particularly we'll written. I found the books confusing which combined with a setting I'm not interested in left me bored rigid. There are too many fantasy books to read out there and I still adore 40/30k fiction so aside from being slightly annnoyed I can't complete a very pretty book collection I'm out. Give it a try for yourself start with the gates of az, you might love it!
Tainted wrote: While we're on the subject of the empire, does anyone know what happened to the gods worshipped in the empire? I know that Morr was killed by Nagash in the end times and of course Sigmar is still around, but I haven't seen any mention of Ulric, Shallya or Taal, and I dare say there were others that I'm forgetting.
The Old World gods have seemingly been replaced with a new pantheon populated mostly by the End Times incarnates, plus a few more.
Sigmar, Tyrion (the blind god of light, who sees through the eyes of his mortal but ageless brother & high priest Teclis), Malerion (God of Shadow, the ghost of Malekith preserved beyond death by his dark magic and fused with the body and spirit of his dragon Seraphon, served by his high priest Morathi - no word on her current relationship with Chaos or how she went from Slaanesh's clutches to Malerion's service), Alarielle (reclusive goddess of life & fertility, who grew the new world's Sylvaneth from seeds taken from the old world, and sticks mostly to the realm of life), Nagash (god of death, who slew and consumed most of the other old world gods who managed to survive the End Times), Gork & Mork (gods of brutality and cunning,now two gods again after breaking with the rest of the pantheon to go on a wild rampage and getting defeated and split apart by Sigmar so that they could occupy each other), Grimnir (though this 'Grimnir' might actually have been Gotrek, regardless the dwarven god of battle and vengeance is now half fire-god salamander and scattered throughout the realms as magical 'ur-gold', the fyreslayers seek to re-unite his parts, though what form he'd take were that to happen is an open question), Grungni (dwarven artificer-god of hearth and clan, who forged the stormcast for Sigmar),
These, along with other unnamed greater and lesser divinities, made up Sigmar's great alliance, and were the pantheon worshipped by the peoples of the mortal realms, until the dissolution of that alliance allowed chaos to take over most of them.
I've found a wealth of background information in the various fluff pieces.
Azyr
This mostly comes from Ghal Maraz
-When Vandus is reforged in Sigmarion he takes a peak into the night sky and looks down off the side of Sigmarion and remarks on the sleepy verdant fields below and the people under their protection.
Spoiler:
"“To their right loomed the sphere of Mallus, the world remnant. It had swollen in the wake of the Stormhosts’ first victories. The metal was glutted with magic, and the surface glinted with an iridescent sheen. To their left the heavens of Azyr opened. Nowhere in any realm was there a night sky more beautiful; it blazed with stars of all colours and sizes, jewels set upon sumptuous cloths woven from nebulae. Rising through it was the Celestial Stair, a slash of bright metal climbing “impossibly high, its top anchored beneath the High Star Sigendil. A handful of Azyr’s many moons arced gracefully along their heavenly tracks, while the lands of the Celestial Realm slumbered below. Rivers glinted in lazy loops of beaten steel, and towns and villages were picked out by yellow dots of lamplight. Forests were seas of purplish black in the moonlight, and farmland an orderly miniature landscape wrought in silver.”
-Again walking through Sigmarion a host of mortal servants are described as aiding the works of the Stormcast as smiths and forgers.
Spoiler:
"“They left the quenching chambers and came through obscure ways to the exposed surface of the Sigmarabulum. Once more it churned with industry. The quiet before their assault on Aqshy had been but a pause, and now the magics and machineries there worked hard again, healing and remaking those warriors who had fallen. Sigmar’s wizard-artisans and their helpers hurried about. They paid no attention to the demigods striding among them – such sights were unremarkable in this city of wonders.”
-We see the area around the Azyr Realmgate has been turned into a fortified area with mortals from Azyr again lending aid.
Spoiler:
"“Upon the narrow plain by the great Silver River of Anvrok stood the Bright Tor Gate, an ancient edifice open once more by Sigmar’s decree. A camp had sprung up. The ruins about the gate were thick with artisans from the Eternal City, working under the watchful protection of the Lord-Castellants and their warriors, whose keen eyes were ever searching for signs of attack.
Everywhere were the signs of fresh works. Wizard-wrights levitated the tumbled blocks of broken fortifications to stand once more atop one another, their fellows mortaring them into place with molten stone jetting from lances that burned with a magical heat. New life returned to the bones of the dead town. The gate shone with pure energies of untainted magic. Chrono-smiths worked their gentle but potent spells, walking solemnly around and around the gate’s town, and their deep, sonorous chants provided a calming counter note to the clamour of construction. Wherever their sandalled feet passed, the land seemed changed, cleansed.
The realm was healing.”
Aqshy
-Again much of human civilization in the realm has been obliterated by the works of Chaos, overtaken by corruption. The Stormcasts themselves are a gateway into what the setting was before its destruction such as in "Assault on Mandrake Keep"
Spoiler:
“My kingdom, Orius thought, as he stalked forward, at the head of his warriors. While he, like many Stormcasts, could but dimly recall the days of his own mortality before his death and Reforging at Sigmar’s hand, Orius remembered enough. He could still recall the heady musk of the Ashen Jungle after rain, and the way the colossal roots of the immense trees had wound through the walls and streets of Uryx. The jungle and the city were one, and its people comfortable in either. He had been comfortable in either. Klaxus had been his home.”
Cataphract wrote: I've found a wealth of background information in the various fluff pieces.
Azyr
This mostly comes from Ghal Maraz
-When Vandus is reforged in Sigmarion he takes a peak into the night sky and looks down off the side of Sigmarion and remarks on the sleepy verdant fields below and the people under their protection.
"“To their right loomed the sphere of Mallus, the world remnant. It had swollen in the wake of the Stormhosts’ first victories. The metal was glutted with magic, and the surface glinted with an iridescent sheen. To their left the heavens of Azyr opened. Nowhere in any realm was there a night sky more beautiful; it blazed with stars of all colours and sizes, jewels set upon sumptuous cloths woven from nebulae. Rising through it was the Celestial Stair, a slash of bright metal climbing “impossibly high, its top anchored beneath the High Star Sigendil. A handful of Azyr’s many moons arced gracefully along their heavenly tracks, while the lands of the Celestial Realm slumbered below. Rivers glinted in lazy loops of beaten steel, and towns and villages were picked out by yellow dots of lamplight. Forests were seas of purplish black in the moonlight, and farmland an orderly miniature landscape wrought in silver.”
-Again walking through Sigmarion a host of mortal servants are described as aiding the works of the Stormcast as smiths and forgers. "“They left the quenching chambers and came through obscure ways to the exposed surface of the Sigmarabulum. Once more it churned with industry. The quiet before their assault on Aqshy had been but a pause, and now the magics and machineries there worked hard again, healing and remaking those warriors who had fallen. Sigmar’s wizard-artisans and their helpers hurried about. They paid no attention to the demigods striding among them – such sights were unremarkable in this city of wonders.”
-We see the area around the Azyr Realmgate has been turned into a fortified area with mortals from Azyr again lending aid.
"“Upon the narrow plain by the great Silver River of Anvrok stood the Bright Tor Gate, an ancient edifice open once more by Sigmar’s decree. A camp had sprung up. The ruins about the gate were thick with artisans from the Eternal City, working under the watchful protection of the Lord-Castellants and their warriors, whose keen eyes were ever searching for signs of attack.
Everywhere were the signs of fresh works. Wizard-wrights levitated the tumbled blocks of broken fortifications to stand once more atop one another, their fellows mortaring them into place with molten stone jetting from lances that burned with a magical heat. New life returned to the bones of the dead town. The gate shone with pure energies of untainted magic. Chrono-smiths worked their gentle but potent spells, walking solemnly around and around the gate’s town, and their deep, sonorous chants provided a calming counter note to the clamour of construction. Wherever their sandalled feet passed, the land seemed changed, cleansed.
The realm was healing.”
Aqshy
-Again much of human civilization in the realm has been obliterated by the works of Chaos, overtaken by corruption. The Stormcasts themselves are a gateway into what the setting was before its destruction such as in "Assault on Mandrake Keep"
“My kingdom, Orius thought, as he stalked forward, at the head of his warriors. While he, like many Stormcasts, could but dimly recall the days of his own mortality before his death and Reforging at Sigmar’s hand, Orius remembered enough. He could still recall the heady musk of the Ashen Jungle after rain, and the way the colossal roots of the immense trees had wound through the walls and streets of Uryx. The jungle and the city were one, and its people comfortable in either. He had been comfortable in either. Klaxus had been his home.”
Is that your words or from the book? If from the books?
Cataphract wrote: I've found a wealth of background information in the various fluff pieces.
Azyr
This mostly comes from Ghal Maraz
-When Vandus is reforged in Sigmarion he takes a peak into the night sky and looks down off the side of Sigmarion and remarks on the sleepy verdant fields below and the people under their protection.
"“To their right loomed the sphere of Mallus, the world remnant. It had swollen in the wake of the Stormhosts’ first victories. The metal was glutted with magic, and the surface glinted with an iridescent sheen. To their left the heavens of Azyr opened. Nowhere in any realm was there a night sky more beautiful; it blazed with stars of all colours and sizes, jewels set upon sumptuous cloths woven from nebulae. Rising through it was the Celestial Stair, a slash of bright metal climbing “impossibly high, its top anchored beneath the High Star Sigendil. A handful of Azyr’s many moons arced gracefully along their heavenly tracks, while the lands of the Celestial Realm slumbered below. Rivers glinted in lazy loops of beaten steel, and towns and villages were picked out by yellow dots of lamplight. Forests were seas of purplish black in the moonlight, and farmland an orderly miniature landscape wrought in silver.”
-Again walking through Sigmarion a host of mortal servants are described as aiding the works of the Stormcast as smiths and forgers. "“They left the quenching chambers and came through obscure ways to the exposed surface of the Sigmarabulum. Once more it churned with industry. The quiet before their assault on Aqshy had been but a pause, and now the magics and machineries there worked hard again, healing and remaking those warriors who had fallen. Sigmar’s wizard-artisans and their helpers hurried about. They paid no attention to the demigods striding among them – such sights were unremarkable in this city of wonders.”
-We see the area around the Azyr Realmgate has been turned into a fortified area with mortals from Azyr again lending aid.
"“Upon the narrow plain by the great Silver River of Anvrok stood the Bright Tor Gate, an ancient edifice open once more by Sigmar’s decree. A camp had sprung up. The ruins about the gate were thick with artisans from the Eternal City, working under the watchful protection of the Lord-Castellants and their warriors, whose keen eyes were ever searching for signs of attack.
Everywhere were the signs of fresh works. Wizard-wrights levitated the tumbled blocks of broken fortifications to stand once more atop one another, their fellows mortaring them into place with molten stone jetting from lances that burned with a magical heat. New life returned to the bones of the dead town. The gate shone with pure energies of untainted magic. Chrono-smiths worked their gentle but potent spells, walking solemnly around and around the gate’s town, and their deep, sonorous chants provided a calming counter note to the clamour of construction. Wherever their sandalled feet passed, the land seemed changed, cleansed.
The realm was healing.”
Aqshy
-Again much of human civilization in the realm has been obliterated by the works of Chaos, overtaken by corruption. The Stormcasts themselves are a gateway into what the setting was before its destruction such as in "Assault on Mandrake Keep"
“My kingdom, Orius thought, as he stalked forward, at the head of his warriors. While he, like many Stormcasts, could but dimly recall the days of his own mortality before his death and Reforging at Sigmar’s hand, Orius remembered enough. He could still recall the heady musk of the Ashen Jungle after rain, and the way the colossal roots of the immense trees had wound through the walls and streets of Uryx. The jungle and the city were one, and its people comfortable in either. He had been comfortable in either. Klaxus had been his home.”
Is that your words or from the book? If from the books?
From the books, the Realmgate War novels and a novella/short story.
"Ghal Maraz" by Guy Haley and Josh Reynolds, and "Assault on Mandrake Keep" by Josh Reynolds
Cataphract wrote: I've found a wealth of background information in the various fluff pieces.
Azyr
This mostly comes from Ghal Maraz
-When Vandus is reforged in Sigmarion he takes a peak into the night sky and looks down off the side of Sigmarion and remarks on the sleepy verdant fields below and the people under their protection.
"“To their right loomed the sphere of Mallus, the world remnant. It had swollen in the wake of the Stormhosts’ first victories. The metal was glutted with magic, and the surface glinted with an iridescent sheen. To their left the heavens of Azyr opened. Nowhere in any realm was there a night sky more beautiful; it blazed with stars of all colours and sizes, jewels set upon sumptuous cloths woven from nebulae. Rising through it was the Celestial Stair, a slash of bright metal climbing “impossibly high, its top anchored beneath the High Star Sigendil. A handful of Azyr’s many moons arced gracefully along their heavenly tracks, while the lands of the Celestial Realm slumbered below. Rivers glinted in lazy loops of beaten steel, and towns and villages were picked out by yellow dots of lamplight. Forests were seas of purplish black in the moonlight, and farmland an orderly miniature landscape wrought in silver.”
-Again walking through Sigmarion a host of mortal servants are described as aiding the works of the Stormcast as smiths and forgers. "“They left the quenching chambers and came through obscure ways to the exposed surface of the Sigmarabulum. Once more it churned with industry. The quiet before their assault on Aqshy had been but a pause, and now the magics and machineries there worked hard again, healing and remaking those warriors who had fallen. Sigmar’s wizard-artisans and their helpers hurried about. They paid no attention to the demigods striding among them – such sights were unremarkable in this city of wonders.”
-We see the area around the Azyr Realmgate has been turned into a fortified area with mortals from Azyr again lending aid.
"“Upon the narrow plain by the great Silver River of Anvrok stood the Bright Tor Gate, an ancient edifice open once more by Sigmar’s decree. A camp had sprung up. The ruins about the gate were thick with artisans from the Eternal City, working under the watchful protection of the Lord-Castellants and their warriors, whose keen eyes were ever searching for signs of attack.
Everywhere were the signs of fresh works. Wizard-wrights levitated the tumbled blocks of broken fortifications to stand once more atop one another, their fellows mortaring them into place with molten stone jetting from lances that burned with a magical heat. New life returned to the bones of the dead town. The gate shone with pure energies of untainted magic. Chrono-smiths worked their gentle but potent spells, walking solemnly around and around the gate’s town, and their deep, sonorous chants provided a calming counter note to the clamour of construction. Wherever their sandalled feet passed, the land seemed changed, cleansed.
The realm was healing.”
Aqshy
-Again much of human civilization in the realm has been obliterated by the works of Chaos, overtaken by corruption. The Stormcasts themselves are a gateway into what the setting was before its destruction such as in "Assault on Mandrake Keep"
“My kingdom, Orius thought, as he stalked forward, at the head of his warriors. While he, like many Stormcasts, could but dimly recall the days of his own mortality before his death and Reforging at Sigmar’s hand, Orius remembered enough. He could still recall the heady musk of the Ashen Jungle after rain, and the way the colossal roots of the immense trees had wound through the walls and streets of Uryx. The jungle and the city were one, and its people comfortable in either. He had been comfortable in either. Klaxus had been his home.”
Is that your words or from the book? If from the books?
From the books, the Realmgate War novels and a novella/short story.
"Ghal Maraz" by Guy Haley and Josh Reynolds, and "Assault on Mandrake Keep" by Josh Reynolds
There's plenty more, too. In particular, Thostos Bladestorm's flashbacks in Storm of Blades provide lots of info.
I think the problem I have is the lack of real understanding behind the motivations of each side.
It feels like they want to fight each other just for the sake of fighting each other and to control realms. But there isn't enough overal background around why they want to control each realm apart from just general expansionist reasons. And that applies to all sides.
I feel like I could just as well root for the Bloodbound as I could for the Sigmarites or the Nurgle folks etc.
And the whole resurrection theme makes it even less consequential. It's like "Well they'll be back tomorrow to fight each other again anyway".
Maybe that's the intent?
That aside, I'm actually having fun playing AOS tabletop.
The realms are infinite aren't they? I have it in my head that they are but can't remember actually reading it. If so even general expansionist reasons seem to go out the window as to motivations as there would theoretically be enough room for everyone to expand as much as they want.
It has never been stated. I have some issues with the idea of infinity as it is, as it would mean that, somewhere, in some corner of some realm, the entire Old World, pre-Whoops, exists...
Perhaps we should be talking about the 'observable realms'...
jonolikespie wrote: The realms are infinite aren't they? I have it in my head that they are but can't remember actually reading it. If so even general expansionist reasons seem to go out the window as to motivations as there would theoretically be enough room for everyone to expand as much as they want.
I don't think most species on the planet now comprehend that its space is finite, yet everyone tries to expand. Or past human civilizations... It's basic survival motivation. If there's a great geographic location right next to you, why wouldn't you want to take it?
KiloFiX wrote: I think the problem I have is the lack of real understanding behind the motivations of each side.
It feels like they want to fight each other just for the sake of fighting each other and to control realms. But there isn't enough overal background around why they want to control each realm apart from just general expansionist reasons. And that applies to all sides.
I feel like I could just as well root for the Bloodbound as I could for the Sigmarites or the Nurgle folks etc.
And the whole resurrection theme makes it even less consequential. It's like "Well they'll be back tomorrow to fight each other again anyway".
Maybe that's the intent?
That aside, I'm actually having fun playing AOS tabletop.
To use a bit of a loaded analogy, it's like ISIS vs. the west.
Broadly speaking, the time of Myth, when Sigmar had united the realms and races were mostly peaceful, largely self governed and nice, was 'good'.
Then Chaos came back, subjugating the realms in a kind of 'my way or the highway' which is 'bad'.
So the Realmgate wars are the first part of the 'good' guys trying to liberate the realms from the 'bad' guys. Death & Destruction kinda fit in the middle as their aims vary from realm to realm and opponent to opponent.
Who you *actually* view as good or bad will depend on taste though. Blood reavers, for example, would probably quite like to return to a state where killing is optional, but Blood Warriors overall seem quite keen on the whole endless slaughter thing.
Think of it like the D-day landings into occupied Europe. Some want liberating, some want the liberators to do one, and some just want to be left alone and/or keep their heads down.
As for the resurrection thing, the cracks are already appearing in that. It's not a sure-fire thing, it can be tampered with, and from the novels I've read so far the Stormcast really aren't keen on dying at all.
MongooseMatt wrote: I have some issues with the idea of infinity as it is, as it would mean that, somewhere, in some corner of some realm, the entire Old World, pre-Whoops, exists...
That's not how infinity works. Imagine an infinite, flat, unbroken plain. It can proceed infinitely in all directions without every having a hill or valley.
Or imagine the following infinite series of numbers: 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,...
It can go on forever without ever having a '4' in it.
Just because something is infinite, doesn't mean any possible configuration exists within it.
"That aside, I'm actually having fun playing AOS tabletop.
To use a bit of a loaded analogy, it's like ISIS vs. the west.
Broadly speaking, the time of Myth, when Sigmar had united the realms and races were mostly peaceful, largely self governed and nice, was 'good'.
Then Chaos came back, subjugating the realms in a kind of 'my way or the highway' which is 'bad'.
So the Realmgate wars are the first part of the 'good' guys trying to liberate the realms from the 'bad' guys. Death & Destruction kinda fit in the middle as their aims vary from realm to realm and opponent to opponent.
Who you *actually* view as good or bad will depend on taste though. Blood reavers, for example, would probably quite like to return to a state where killing is optional, but Blood Warriors overall seem quite keen on the whole endless slaughter thing.
Think of it like the D-day landings into occupied Europe. Some want liberating, some want the liberators to do one, and some just want to be left alone and/or keep their heads down.
As for the resurrection thing, the cracks are already appearing in that. It's not a sure-fire thing, it can be tampered with, and from the novels I've read so far the Stormcast really aren't keen on dying at all.
"
I don't think the general generic good vs generic evil gives an in depth look into they "why they fight" that many people feel AOS left out. The infinite realms and never ending war really ruined AOS for me. For instance if a sigmarine dies he becomes more robotic but never stops existing. You obviously don't like getting killed (it hurts, you have memory problems, ect) but after that it seems like no big deal. So what if your soldiers remember less of their previous lives each time they die as long as they just respawn to fight another day (yes i know there are a few instances where special magic keeps them from coming back but it seems rare and sigmar could just make more). Then you get into the issue if the realms really are infinite with infinite forces fighting over them. If this is true whats the point of any fight/ campaign/ death. You gain nothing from a victory and lose nothing from defeat. To make an analogy i played hockey competitively for 20 years. If instead of having a set season you just played a never ending stream of games it would soon become bland and nobody would watch. Why care if you get 2 points for a win if there is no championship at the end of the season. So what if you kill 100000000000 blood borne if there are an infinite amount more just over the the next floating islands.
That's primarily because Azyr isn't where any of the action is happening - it's the only 'safe house'.
That said, there's plenty of glimpses in the fluff, including references to Orruk warbands in the wilds, mountainous regions where the Gryph hounds live, what you can see if you stand on a balcony in Sigmaron... It's scattered about, but it's there.
RoperPG wrote: That's primarily because Azyr isn't where any of the action is happening - it's the only 'safe house'.
That said, there's plenty of glimpses in the fluff, including references to Orruk warbands in the wilds, mountainous regions where the Gryph hounds live, what you can see if you stand on a balcony in Sigmaron... It's scattered about, but it's there.
Yeah I know but I want to know about some of the normal people there we get plenty of that with the realm of death and descriptions of the landscape. Perhaps when we get the grand alliance order book we may find out?
John goes out and buys the WFB Blood Island starter box. It's his first exposure to the Old World. He also buys the Skaven and High Elf army books because he knows the rules are in there so he needs those.
He reads the little rulebook, then digests the army books cover to cover.
He wonders why there isn't more about this Nagash guy because he seems a pretty big deal.
There are black library novels about him, he has cameos in other army books, etc. etc.
Even if he reads those, he'll then wonder who this Sigmar guy is, etc. etc. John could read solidly for years and still not read everything that was ever written down about the old world.
The old world was crafted over 30 years, and I think people take it for granted exactly how much it was fleshed out in that time, and how much we learn and absorb just by reading bits and pieces. Hell, I've been a GW fan for over 25 years, and I *still* encounter things I'd never heard of before.
That creates expectations on AoS that were just never possible to realise.
If you settle back and accept that you're an observer watching a story unfold, it's a lot easier. The Mortal Realms are a developing setting and timeline, effectively in real-time on releases thus far. The Old World was static and constantly having elements of its history rewritten because it was always 'now', it was possible to try and learn everything about it because it had happened already.
I *liked* the Old World setting, but it was finite - you were effectively always playing a fantasy historical wargame.
AoS is more on the soap-opera level - if you want to see what happens next week, you'll have to the back in.
I get that's not to everyone's tastes, and it wasn't to mine initially. But I get how GW are handling it now, and I like it. Still not sure if I prefer it, but I like it.
One thing about the Old World fiction was that it was "incremental", which is to say, it had been built up in layers with varying degrees of retcon and hand waving. It also was able to lean pretty heavily on existing tropes, both for our world and for fantasy worlds. Example: Once you knew that Bretonnians were in the France equivalent and were copping the Arthurian legend vibe, you had a pretty large amount of information about what Britannia probably looked like. Sure, there were specifics you might not know- the exact names of the regions, the specialties etc, but you had a framework.
To a great extent, we don't have that for AoS. For some, that's a big problem. For me, I'm kind of enjoying discovering and piecing together from all the different hooks and storylines what is going on. And to a great extent, many of the factions in AoS aren't actually aware of what is going on- the Stormcast are just returning, the Fyreslayers are setting out from their holds into regions that are little more than myth and legend anymore.
It reminds me of some of the things I liked about 40K fiction when I was getting started- it's a vast universe- room for throwaway bits and for strands that connect throughout.
I see a lot of these threads come up, and it's always surprising to see how often they dance around what's probably the biggest issue with AoS' background, which is the actual quality of the writing. Sure, it's never bad on a basic technical level, but look at that post of Cataphract's with all those quotes - that is some industrial-grade fantasy product right there, professionally stripped of anything that could be mistaken for human input. It's the sort of remaindered prose that's sold by the pound and recycled into IKEA chair legs. Say what you like of the Old World, with it's shameless conceptual thefts and occasional dips into outright nonsense, but you can't deny that it had a personality and some real zest. AoS is a world conceived by a sales department, brought to life with writing that just couldn't cut it as ad copy, and I'm sure someone, somewhere is just completely confounded as to why that foolproof approach hasn't captured the imagination of gamers worldwide.
There was lousy and generic prose aplenty in the old world, too. It's a common GW problem.
Admittedly, it's more of a problem in AoS than it was, though, yeah. I attribute this not to the setting or fluff itself, but to the presence of the Sigmarines inviting in all the worst and laziest cliches and writing habits associated with space marine fluff in 40k.
Malisteen wrote: There was lousy and generic prose aplenty in the old world, too. It's a common GW problem.
Admittedly, it's more of a problem in AoS than it was, though, yeah. I attribute this not to the setting or fluff itself, but to the presence of the Sigmarines inviting in all the worst and laziest cliches and writing habits associated with space marine fluff in 40k.
Sure, it was there, especially recently, as the same crew that's responsible for AoS took the reigns of the IP division some time ago. The Old World's better parts were always the ones defining the setting, tho. AoS, on the other hand, doesn't have better parts, and I doubt it ever will - Sigmarines or no, the whole setting was created for sales purposes, and seems to have a very heavy style guide purposefully designed to stamp out the human spark that made the Old World so attractive.
The background in the novels is really good and I am enjoying it. Currently reading Storm of Blades from the War Storm novel at the moment. The audio Prisoner of the Black Sun I also enjoyed. Nagash sounded epic and pretty cheesed of at the thought of the Stormcasts mooching about in his realm....
Sword Of Caliban wrote: The background in the novels is really good and I am enjoying it. Currently reading Storm of Blades from the War Storm novel at the moment. The audio Prisoner of the Black Sun I also enjoyed. Nagash sounded epic and pretty cheesed of at the thought of the Stormcasts mooching about in his realm....
Just wait until you get to the end. I think the death realm fluff has been pretty awesome so far. Still the old world has had 30 years of fluff and rectons happen to it AOS has not been out for even fraction of the time honestly I personally like how the fluff is developing so far.
I kind of disagree on that note about the end of the audio drama. Part three was, imo, the weakest of the parts, and really undercuts any sense you might have had of Nagash being a major threat beyond just being a particularly potent brawler.
spoilers:
Spoiler:
He can beat up sigmarines, but his mastery of the dead is so much weaker than Sigmars that he struggles - and fails - to hold onto even a small handful of stormcast souls, and his mastery over his mortarchs is so weak that he was unable to prevent Mannfred from leaving him in the first place, unable to prevent him from returning when he wasn't wanted, unable to kill him when Nagash attempted to strike him down, and unable to prevent him from fleeing again.
This on top of the other fluff in AoS specifically calling out that Nagash wants and needs to regather his mortarchs in order to launch a real counteroffensive against chaos, and here comes one of them begging to be taken back and Nagash refuses him outright?
I was rather let down, honestly. Nagash is basically the magical equivalent of a big dumb bruiser, not especially smart, not particularly manipulative, not able to maintain control even over his own undead legions and their commanders, not able to assert control over the spirits of the dead if Sigmar happens to claim them. He is, frankly, just not on Sigmar's level. At all. And that leaves the 'grand alliance of death' on rather shakey footing in the fluff.
No wonder the entire grand alliance comes out to barely mroe total forces than even some individual faction battletomes in other alliances.
Malisteen wrote: There was lousy and generic prose aplenty in the old world, too. It's a common GW problem.
Admittedly, it's more of a problem in AoS than it was, though, yeah. I attribute this not to the setting or fluff itself, but to the presence of the Sigmarines inviting in all the worst and laziest cliches and writing habits associated with space marine fluff in 40k.
Yup. One of the big problems is the dialogue because no one sounds like a real person. Because there aren't any regular people. Stormcast dialogue might as well be copied and pasted from Uriel Ventris novels. There's a whole cast of characters ranging from Stormcasts to Chaos champions to blood crazed berserkers to demigods to actual gods themselves. And none of them speak or behave like a regular person, which forms a disconnect with the reader in my opinion. There's a reason Gaunt's Ghosts and Gotrek and Felix are amongst the best of the Black Library's works. Because they for the most part are about average Joes.
I'd add in the eisenhorn & ravenor books to that pile of best Black Library works, but again they're focusing on characters who are much closer to 'normal people'.
The last 40k Black Library book that I found to be successful that focused on marines was Talon of Horus. I'm not sure what I could say was the key difference there, other than ADB just being one of the better authors they've got, especially when it comes to Chaos stuff.
There are plenty of "O, my brethren", "thine", "though" etc. and it's ok for a medieval fantasy book. What is not ok is stuff like this:
"The darkness of the night, alloyed to the sulphurous smoke rising from the basin of the flume, was enough to conceal their ranks, but not caustic enough to trouble a Stormcast. The reflected glow of the lava gave their armour a lambent shine, though not bright enough to give away their position." - War Storm
This is one of the funny parts though, there are plenty of other passages that are an impossible yet existing amalgam of boring, difficult to follow, sour to read etc. I may be too demanding, but I swear I approached the 4 book bundle with the minimum possible amount of expectations. I don't think ill of the authors, though, as they probably still don't have enough experience. For me the major drive behind the AoSBL books is giving the reader some battles to re-enact with his models. Even the loudly "applauded" "Beneath the black thumb" is no exception. I still found it pretty unsatisfying, but I guess you get what you pay for and 20 euro for 4 books is pretty standard for this type of literature.
Malisteen wrote: I'd add in the eisenhorn & ravenor books to that pile of best Black Library works, but again they're focusing on characters who are much closer to 'normal people'.
The last 40k Black Library book that I found to be successful that focused on marines was Talon of Horus. I'm not sure what I could say was the key difference there, other than ADB just being one of the better authors they've got, especially when it comes to Chaos stuff.
Yeah I love ADB. His Night Lords trilogy inspired me to restart the army because characters like Talos and Septimus were so great. Septimus and Octavia are good examples of more "real" people with mortal struggles and concerns.
For some reason it seems to be easier to write Chaos Marines like Talos or Honsou with more personality than a standard Imperial Marine. Probably because they don't have to follow this warrior monk cult motif where they live lives of discipline and restraint.
@Roper I'll check out your request when I get home from work and look at some books.
I'm not sure I'd say that. There's a lot of particularly terrible chaos marine writing in 40k, particularly where they're the antagonists in stories that focus on loyalists marines as protagonists. In those types of stories, chaos marines are typically treated as mindless cannon fodder - berzerkers scythed down by the dozen as they attempt to assault a handful of entrenched loyalists, that sort of thing.
Semmi off topic grousing:
Spoiler:
The novelization of the Pandorax campaign in particular was just shameful. The fluff of the campaign book made Chaos out to be a serious and competent threat - if one fighting a hit and run campaign against an enemy with much greater resources, as is appropriate. The Black Legion shows up, opens a daemon box on the planet to throw it into chaos and hide Abaddon's search for his real target, eventually overwhelming imperial reserves show up and the smaller chaos fleet showcases their superior skill in successfully holding them off for over a week until an EVEN MORE overwhelming imperial fleet shows up, then chaos books it with Abaddons goal in mind and the imperials are stuck mostly fighting against immortal, expendible daemons.
The novelization just turns all of that on its head. Permanently taking the system was Abaddons goal, making off with the captive grey knight a consolation prize. The brilliant Black Legion admiral who held off superior enemy forces for weeks tries to defect ot the Red Corsairs the moment the overwhelming imperial relief fleet arrives because somehow their amazing achievement qualifies as a 'failure' for which Abaddon would have had them killed. Bolter fire cuts down berzerkers by the dozen as they fail to charge dark angel lines. An entire squad of plague marines is taken out by half a dozen catachans.
It's terrible, terrible writing, and it plagues almost all depictions of chaos marines in 40k fluff where they aren't the protagonists, and much of the depictions where they are. ADB did a great job portraying Abaddon in Talon of Horus, but the Abaddon in his Night Lords trilogy was made utterly incompetent so that the Night Lord protagonists could shine.
Almost nobody at Black Library can portray a respectable antagonists. We almost always see antagonists reduced to mindless, worthless mooks threatening only in their numbers, in order to portray the protagonists, whoever they are, as unassailable super heroes. It's a problem. It undercuts the threat of the antagonists, and leaves the protagonists feeling empty as characters, incapable of growing or developing as characters because there's nothing required of them to mentally or morally change in order to overcome, just an endless progression of rote physical challenges.
And when even sigmarines that die just respawn, with very little sense of meaningful loss from that, when even the 'god of death' can't actually kill them, it really undercuts the stakes. You could raise the stakes back up by getting the reader to invest in the things the sigmarines are trying to protect, but that would, again, require shifting the narrative focus to the normal people.
It's no mistake that the best bits and pieces of fluff we've gotten have done that - like the second part of the Nagash audio drama, where the sigmarines encounter human pilgrims in the world of death, and escort them to a vampire monestary where they renew an ancient pact where by the humans willingly offer the vampires sustenance in exchange for the protection that the vampires offered from chaos when even the gods themselves abandoned the mortal realms.
That's interesting stuff! I want to hear more about that! I want to see the villages these pilgrims came from! I want to know how they've survived Chaos's domination of the realms, how they've hidden from chaos warbands and survived the various natural dangers of the realm of Death. Their leader was awesome, I want to know more about her! I want to buy her model! I want to buy models for their entire interesting 'mortal residents of the realm of death' mini group.
By contrast, I knew everything there was to know about the stormcast, everything that could ever possibly be worth knowing about them, about three paragraphs into the description of them.
Yeah I really hate the faux-medieval style of talking... No one ever talked like that! It's basically modern English with some words replaced with "thou" and "alas". Always annoying, and no less so here.
CoreCommander wrote: There are plenty of "O, my brethren", "thine", "though" etc. and it's ok for a medieval fantasy book. What is not ok is stuff like this:
"The darkness of the night, alloyed to the sulphurous smoke rising from the basin of the flume, was enough to conceal their ranks, but not caustic enough to trouble a Stormcast. The reflected glow of the lava gave their armour a lambent shine, though not bright enough to give away their position." - War Storm
Except the latter is bad writing if you don't like that kind of thing, not bad setting.
On the dialogue front, there are plenty of examples of Stormcast not talking like an eccentric Brettonian, primarily when it's not the command types.
These guys have effectively been destroyed and reassembled with the essence of a god bound in to them, and a promise made that when they die they probably won't die permanently but they might lose part of what makes them them.
Their camaraderie is born of combat and purpose. It's entirely possible that in an entire Stormhost there are no two Stormcast who were alive in the same place at the same time, so there would be no shared experience beyond the point of being 'chosen'. I think you can forgive them for being a little formal in their language...
The part after the "O" sentence was me yelling out my frustration with the books.
As for the language - I meant that I'm ok with the "O"s and "thou"s as AoS books are essentially medieval fantasy books - this was unclear, I see, my apologies.
Lexington wrote: I see a lot of these threads come up, and it's always surprising to see how often they dance around what's probably the biggest issue with AoS' background, which is the actual quality of the writing. Sure, it's never bad on a basic technical level, but look at that post of Cataphract's with all those quotes - that is some industrial-grade fantasy product right there, professionally stripped of anything that could be mistaken for human input. It's the sort of remaindered prose that's sold by the pound and recycled into IKEA chair legs. Say what you like of the Old World, with it's shameless conceptual thefts and occasional dips into outright nonsense, but you can't deny that it had a personality and some real zest. AoS is a world conceived by a sales department, brought to life with writing that just couldn't cut it as ad copy, and I'm sure someone, somewhere is just completely confounded as to why that foolproof approach hasn't captured the imagination of gamers worldwide.
Very good point. AOS stuff is clearly written differently than WFB was, in a much more childish manner. WhilE it wasnt exactly Shakespeare, WFB backgrounds was at least written competently, and helped you to immerse in the setting. AOS reads like bad fan fictions. Very poorly written with barely any character development.
Malisteen wrote: I kind of disagree on that note about the end of the audio drama. Part three was, imo, the weakest of the parts, and really undercuts any sense you might have had of Nagash being a major threat beyond just being a particularly potent brawler.
spoilers:
Spoiler:
He can beat up sigmarines, but his mastery of the dead is so much weaker than Sigmars that he struggles - and fails - to hold onto even a small handful of stormcast souls, and his mastery over his mortarchs is so weak that he was unable to prevent Mannfred from leaving him in the first place, unable to prevent him from returning when he wasn't wanted, unable to kill him when Nagash attempted to strike him down, and unable to prevent him from fleeing again.
This on top of the other fluff in AoS specifically calling out that Nagash wants and needs to regather his mortarchs in order to launch a real counteroffensive against chaos, and here comes one of them begging to be taken back and Nagash refuses him outright?
I was rather let down, honestly. Nagash is basically the magical equivalent of a big dumb bruiser, not especially smart, not particularly manipulative, not able to maintain control even over his own undead legions and their commanders, not able to assert control over the spirits of the dead if Sigmar happens to claim them. He is, frankly, just not on Sigmar's level. At all. And that leaves the 'grand alliance of death' on rather shakey footing in the fluff.
No wonder the entire grand alliance comes out to barely mroe total forces than even some individual faction battletomes in other alliances.
Well I disagree.
Spoiler:
Er what the audio drama's go out of their way to explain that nagash is recovering after his bout with Archaeon he even states that he pretty much split him in two. Plus you have to remember that stormcast have the essence of sigmar bound to their souls the very fact that he managed to hold them down when chaos itself has trouble getting to them shows that he is not a push over and he did this when he was weakened mind you. Plus mannfred has a discussion with the stormcast when the relicator called nagash a coward for recovering after his battle and mannfred retorts what about sigmar who closed his gates and left everyone to suffer and die at the hands of chaos without even doing anything?
Nagash also calls sigmar the betrayer so there is more going on than we actually know. Plus I answered your question about mannfred in another thread but I will say it again, nagash was going to wreck mannfred now nagash knows what he did I imagine majority of the death realm know what mannfred did to the old world since everyone telll's tarsus not to trust him. Still the fact that he was bought back shows that nagash values him for some reason honestly I think nagash LET him leave considering his tone with mannfred but of course before nagash was about to tear him a new one after rejecting his offering. He pointed out he bought him the thieves and the ones of the storm.
Of course nagash hating sigmar more he directed his attention to them and considering he now has the soul of a lord celestant he was to know everything about sigmar than concerning himself with a "wandering beast." I say agree to disagree I found it actually believable compared to the wardens of everqueen novel. Plus I feel the third one was not weakest because shockingly it made me care about the lord celestant and made the ending between mannfred and him a lot more sad. But to each and their own people don't like the same things.
If they want Nagash to want to destroy Manny, that's fine, but they can't then have him fail to do so when he's right there in his presence, and they can't have manny escape when Nagash apparently has a kill switch that lets him dominate his mortarchs whenever he feels like, as established in BoP.
Also, while what mannfred did to the old world was egregious, the writers needed to find a way to work around it to put him back in Nagash's good graces, because right now there are literally three named characters in all of the grand alliance of death if you don't count him, and that isn't enough to be spinning some off on their own.
If we had at least half a dozen mortarchs, instead of only three, then maybe. But there are only three. The faction is far, far too anemic to have this kind of sub-factionalism, and it creates a huge sense of dissonance when you then start looking at group shots in, say, the GAoD book, that have nagash, arkhan, and manny all buddy buddy together, because of course they do, because they don't have enough different personalities to not do so.
after reading neferata, the nagash trilogy and the suckmar trilogy ( good despite suckmar being in it) this makes me sad, I loved the vampires and tomb kings of the old world, this just seems..extremely lame.
It's not that terrible. So long as you sort of disregard the audio drama. Nagash is a big deal in Age of Sigmar. He's been having some trouble getting back on his feet, but Arkhaon treats him as a major threat, committing his seers to scrying for activity from the Great Necromancer, and diverting considerable military resources, including himself and pretty much the entirety of his varanguard) whenever his seers say Nagash is about to try something, as per the Archaon tome. Sigmar considers him a big deal, sending multiple bands of emissaries to try to treat with him. Chaos is pretty clearly worried about them teaming back up (although Nagash is too angry at Sigmar for that to be much of an option right now).
The mortarchs are considered to be bad dudes for the most part as well.
Unfortunately, it's all 'tell don't show' so far, and none of the attention we're likely to get in the foreseeable future includes new models, while half the existing undead line is queued to go on 'last chance'.
It would be worse, we could be elves. Or regular humans.
I'm not as angry about it as I was yesterday, but it's still not a great place for our faction to be in, narratively or as a product line.
Very good point. AOS stuff is clearly written differently than WFB was, in a much more childish manner. WhilE it wasnt exactly Shakespeare, WFB backgrounds was at least written competently, and helped you to immerse in the setting. AOS reads like bad fan fictions. Very poorly written with barely any character development.
Pretty strongly disagree with this statement, not because I think AoS background is amazingly well written, but because I don't see any significant difference in the writing strength before or after The End Times. There are a handful of outliers on both sides of particularly bad, or fairly good pieces of fiction, but I just don't agree with people who think there's some significant difference in the *quality* of the writing. I think people are maybe tripping over emotional attachment to a setting they may or may not have grown up in the hobby with.
I could use a pair of those rose tinted glasses people are using to look back at Old World fiction.
For the living, bleeding hell of it, to read it - and that's what matters. A sale might've been the end goal, but you never see it on the page - it's the loving pastiche of culture, history and personality that jumped out of the source material and made the Old World something to remember. With AoS, there's nothing on the page but the sale. If there was ever any love put into that universe, it was smothered under the weight of marketing briefs well before a printing press ever got involved.
Very good point. AOS stuff is clearly written differently than WFB was, in a much more childish manner. WhilE it wasnt exactly Shakespeare, WFB backgrounds was at least written competently, and helped you to immerse in the setting. AOS reads like bad fan fictions. Very poorly written with barely any character development.
Pretty strongly disagree with this statement, not because I think AoS background is amazingly well written, but because I don't see any significant difference in the writing strength before or after The End Times. There are a handful of outliers on both sides of particularly bad, or fairly good pieces of fiction, but I just don't agree with people who think there's some significant difference in the *quality* of the writing. I think people are maybe tripping over emotional attachment to a setting they may or may not have grown up in the hobby with.
I could use a pair of those rose tinted glasses people are using to look back at Old World fiction.
Even if you think that the quality is pretty much the same (which I strongly disagree with, but at the end of the day, it's a subjective thing), I'm really surprised that you don't see a difference in writing style between the end time books and AOS books ?
For the living, bleeding hell of it, to read it - and that's what matters. A sale might've been the end goal, but you never see it on the page - it's the loving pastiche of culture, history and personality that jumped out of the source material and made the Old World something to remember. With AoS, there's nothing on the page but the sale. If there was ever any love put into that universe, it was smothered under the weight of marketing briefs well before a printing press ever got involved.
Objection - appeal to emotion. You are *again* comparing the depth of a product that was designed, expanded and written over 30 years to one that is not even a year old.
I have never set eyes on a 1st edition WFB BRB. Exactly how much did we know about the Old World when it was 9 months old?
In all venues where it appears, I love the cry of "they're just doing it for the sales!" Sales, which by nature means appealing to the customers' desires, of course. And yet at the same time, these companies, GW in particular, get blamed for following their own desires and ignoring market research, which critics say would theoretically improve sales. Whatever is negative at any given moment is the side to be on.
Even if you think that the quality is pretty much the same (which I strongly disagree with, but at the end of the day, it's a subjective thing), I'm really surprised that you don't see a difference in writing style between the end time books and AOS books ?
??? I haven't mentioned style, just quality, so, I'm not sure where you're coming from with this.
I have never set eyes on a 1st edition WFB BRB. Exactly how much did we know about the Old World when it was 9 months old?
If you have to ask ... In short, I'd say about 20-30 odd pages giving various information on religion, races, ancient history, geographic regions, countries, cities, politics, maps etc. A typical, brief presentation of a setting that comes packaged with the rules in a rpg book. Of course one can take into account the short description that comes with virtually every class, item, skill or creature and say that it is also an integral part of the setting.
Even if you think that the quality is pretty much the same (which I strongly disagree with, but at the end of the day, it's a subjective thing), I'm really surprised that you don't see a difference in writing style between the end time books and AOS books ?
??? I haven't mentioned style, just quality, so, I'm not sure where you're coming from with this.
Well, since you responded to a post of mine that was mainly about the difference in writing style between the two games, it shouldnt be too hard to see where im coming from with this
I have never set eyes on a 1st edition WFB BRB. Exactly how much did we know about the Old World when it was 9 months old?
If you have to ask ... In short, I'd say about 20-30 odd pages giving various information on religion, races, ancient history, geographic regions, countries, cities, politics, maps etc. A typical, brief presentation of a setting that comes packaged with the rules in a rpg book. Of course one can take into account the short description that comes with virtually every class, item, skill or creature and say that it is also an integral part of the setting.
Cheers for that!
So it seems roughly to be that with AoS people are getting journalism when they want Wikipedia articles?
Well, since you responded to a post of mine that was mainly about the difference in writing style between the two games, it shouldnt be too hard to see where im coming from with this
Er, I was responding to your descriptions of the background as "childish", "very poorly written", "barely any character development", so no, I don't see your connection. Maybe on top of our subjective differences, we don't define words the same way either.
Look, my core argument is that AoS fiction, from a quality perspective isn't any better or worse than anything else from Black Library. Stormcast annoy me in the same way that Space Marines annoy me. You can't relate to them. They shout lame things on the battlefield like "Show no mercy!" (Really? Were you all going to show mercy to the enemy before you said that?)
Maybe being more specific would help make it clear where I'm coming from:
A good portion of the books is spent on battle sequences, which, barring a few exceptions, I tend to find kinda boring, whether they were in the Old World, End Times, or Age of Sigmar.
Equally I've seen pieces I like in both settings:
Vlad felt like a real, understandable antagonist/anti-hero in the End Times. Awesome. Several characters in the AoS fiction so far have been Chaos characters that I actually found genuinely relatable (something I never remember thinking in any other BL fiction) - Ushakar Mir had cool motivations, an interesting character arc, and one of the best AoS twists so far. Lord Grelch was an actual believable perspective for a Nurgle follower. Kairos had some pretty interesting dialogue and that's gotta be one of the harder dudes to write.
When the Elves took a little trip through the Garden of Nurgle in the End Times, that was pretty cool and had the novelty of discovery and mystery that keeps a lot of the AoS fiction readable for me.
Oathbreaker was a decent Old World Dwarf tale, and the Fyreslayers compilation felt right in line with that. Not incredibly written, but interesting because in between the adventure and fighting, you get looks at the history and culture of the Dwarfs/Duardin.
Yup. One of the big problems is the dialogue because no one sounds like a real person.
Okay, I'll bite. Citation please. Or at least examples of what a 'real person' sounds like.
Alrighty, forgive the delay for this. I'm not sure exactly what your criteria is, or what you're looking for specifically, but I can open up any Gaunt's Ghosts book, pick a random page, and find a conversation between troops that doesn't have the processed and flowery language of Stormcast Eternals in it.
Conversation between Colonel Corbec and Major Ormon, Necropolis, pages 235:
Corbec sauntered over to the big Verghastite
"Corbec, Tanith First and Only."
"Major Ormon. I want to lodge a complaint, colonel. Your man Mkoll ordered our withdrawal from the Spoil, and-"
Corbec cut him short. "We're fighting for our fething lives and you want to complain? Shut up. Get used to it. Mkoll made a good call. Another half an hour and you would have been surrounded and dead. You want a "spoil" to defend? Take a look!" He gestured out of a shattered window at the wasteland around. "Start thinking like a soldier, and stop cussing and whining. There's more than unit pride at stake here."
Ormon opened and closed his mouth a few times like a fish.
"I'm glad we understand each other," Corbec said.
Or Guns of Tanith, page 12:
"Fething idiot, you nearly killed me!"
"Killing you was the point of the exercise, Tanith," Cuu grinned, fixing the flustered master-sniper with his feline gaze.
"You're supposed to tag me with that!" Larkin snapped, nodding at the unopened paint stick hooked on Cuu's webbing.
"Oh, yeah," marveled Cuu, as if he'd never seen the stick before.
Or even if there is formal language, there's a reason behind it. Like a guy being beaten and trained to be a servant for a Chaos Space Marine who needs to show them the proper respect, so it just comes naturally to him now. Soul Hunter, page 66:
"Why am I here?"
He smiled at that, a warm and honest smile that Eurydice could have gladly punched off his handsome face. "What the hell is so funny?" she snapped.
"Nothing." His smile faded, but remained in his eyes. "Forgive me. I was told that was the first thing everyone asks when they are brought aboard. It was the first thing I asked, as well."
"So why is that funny?"
"It isn't. I just realized that with you among us, I am no longer the newest in our master's service."
"How long was I out?"
"Eight standard hours." Septimus had counted the exact minutes, but doubted she'd care about that level of detail.
"And you are?"
"Septimus. I am the servant of Lord Talos. His artificer and vassal."
He was annoying her now. "You speak strangely. Slow, like an idiot."
All I know is that I find these conversations much more engaging than things Sigmar says in Vengeance Eternal:
"The realms shake beneath our righteous justice!" "On all fronts your valiant brothers purge the taint of Chaos with hammer and the storm, and thanks to the legends you yourselves forged in pursuit of Ghal Maraz, we can now prepare for the next stage of the great war."
"You will travel to Ghur, the Realm of Beasts, to a wild region known as the Roaring Plains," the God-King proclaimed. "There lies a foul bastion of Chaos known as the Manticore Dreadhold. This fortress guards a realmgate that is critical to our next offensive. Destroy the dreadhold and secure this gate. Put its cursed defenders to the sword, and send their wretched souls screaming to their dark masters. This I task to you."
Or Stormcasts:
"Brother," said Mykos, shaking his head and pointing one finger down at the floor. "The ground is below us, and the ceiling above. Consider our last venture, and thank Sigmar we are not battling through the warped geometry of the Tower of Lost Souls, pursued once more by the mutant scions of the Broken Prince."
"A fair point, my Lord," Axilon smiled, but his mirth did not last long. He lowered his voice as he came closer. "Lord-Celestant Thostos has pushed too far ahead without us. He's going to get himself surrounded."
"I am certain that the Lord-Celestant's tactical situation shifted," said Mykos, a note of warning in his voice, "and he was forced to adjust our battle plan." It would not do for the rest of the chamber to start voicing their own concerns about Thostos' behavior.
"As you say, lord," said Axilon.
But hey, it's all up to individual tastes I suppose. What I find good others won't, and vice versa.
@Pojko- I don't think Sigmar is *supposed* to sound like a normal dude, chatting about high fives and the latest Kanye record, so that doesn't bother me.
As I mentioned earlier, Stormcast conversation bugs me in the same way that Space Marine conversation bugs me. I think you place the two side by side and (like many things) you see a bunch of similarities. Dudes that are bred/forged for battle and don't do anything else aren't very interesting (to me at least!). That's a definite problem with both.
But hey, it's all up to individual tastes I suppose. What I find good others won't, and vice versa.
So true about so many things.
I don't have a problem with the dialogue as such. Normal dudes talk normal, not normal dudes don't. The writing as a whole isn't great and I couldn't read much of it. But I didn't expect it to be good so wasn't really disappointed. I just read some to get a flavor of the background.
Red_Zeke wrote: @Pojko- I don't think Sigmar is *supposed* to sound like a normal dude, chatting about high fives and the latest Kanye record, so that doesn't bother me.
As I mentioned earlier, Stormcast conversation bugs me in the same way that Space Marine conversation bugs me. I think you place the two side by side and (like many things) you see a bunch of similarities. Dudes that are bred/forged for battle and don't do anything else aren't very interesting (to me at least!). That's a definite problem with both.
Yup. That was my only original point all along. There are no normal people in AoS. No one to form a connection with.
If it was GWs intent to make Stormcasts into fantasy space marines then they succeeded. Because that's all I think of when I read about them.
There are no normal people in AoS. No one to form a connection with.
But that's not entirely accurate- the pieces of fiction that talk about things that *aren't* Stormcast get more interesting. It'd be like saying no 40K fiction is interesting because it's all Space Marines. It's not.
My favorites so far have been Call of Archaon (Khorne bit especially), Fyreslayers, some of the advent shorts, none of which place Stormcast front and center.
There are no normal people in AoS. No one to form a connection with.
But that's not entirely accurate- the pieces of fiction that talk about things that *aren't* Stormcast get more interesting. It'd be like saying no 40K fiction is interesting because it's all Space Marines. It's not.
My favorites so far have been Call of Archaon (Khorne bit especially), Fyreslayers, some of the advent shorts, none of which place Stormcast front and center.
He kinda beat me to it!
@Pojko I get what you mean now, but it's comparing apples and oranges.
You have an actual God talking to his chosen warriors, and those sorts of speeches tend to be worded for posterity.
You have a commanding officer of an armed force talking to a subordinate who's on the verge of sowing discord.
Leagues away from what you'd expect to find in a Gaunt's Ghosts novel. (Don't get me wrong, I love the GG's).
GG are the Wolverine-type of the imperial guard, part of their schtick is that they never really got properly trained/inducted into the Imperial Guard, so they have a distinctly informal attitude to military doctrine. But that said, some of Gaunt's own speeches when he's *not* guy-in-command-tent-with-Corbec are on a par with some of the fruitier AoS wordings. But overall, GG's are the anti-heroes/normal guys, whereas Stormcast are supposed to be these paragons of humanity.
If you switched the dialogue around, it just wouldn't work because it'd be incongruous.
Whether you think it's any good or not is down to you, but I think Stormcast talk exactly as I'd expect them to.
Lord Celestant Zephacleas is a pretty good example that they aren't all like that though (can't stop picturing him as Brian Blessed...)
As for 'normal guy' talk - I'm currently reading the QfGM BL books and there's a section where Torglug, the Glottkin, Gutrot Spume, a couple of other Nurgle big hitters and a Verminlord are figuring out how to find the Hidden Vale in order to kill Alarielle.
You couldn't really get a more fantastical scene than a bunch of almost-daemons plotting to kill a God - yet the conversation is on a par with most 'who's round is it next?' discussions just before kicking out time on a Friday.
I'll be interested to read the Fyreslayers collection of BL stories too.
I had mentioned previously that my initial read of BoP had been very swift, and I'd post again to take back any complaints I had made if they turned out to be based on mistaken impressions or recollections.
I'm doing that now - based on my apparently failing memory, I had though Nagash took control of Neferata by force, which didn't make much sense with Mannfred being able to flee from Nagash's presence under his own power.
I was wrong on that, I've gotten back up to that part in a closer read, and Neferata willingly lets Nagash speak through her.
This doens't improve my opinion of Nagash's portrayal in the audio drama, but this isn't a point of conflict between the two sources.
That said, Nagash does consider the stormcasts offer, and even considering such rather than immediately careening straight off the rails into ravings and attacks is a (welcome) change from his audio drama characterizations. BoP ends with the offer still under consideration, so I guess we'll see in the next campaign book if Nagash's rediscovered capacity to show restraint lasts for more than five seconds.
As I said it still makes sense considering this may have been after he mutilated a certain someone's soul so he may now know things that he did not know before. Plus he was cranky after being sliced up by Archaeon cut him some slack. XD
Of course knowing nagash he is going to try and find some way to get a better end of any deal he makes.
Ok a fluff question occurred to me and I figured this is the place to ask it.
Why are the lizardmen (or rather the Slaan) fighting?
They live on spaceships now don't they? Why don't they just stay there? Do they have any reason for summoning up those memories of dead lizardmen and doing down to the different realms to actually fight other than 'chaos is bad and needs to be opposed'?
jonolikespie wrote: Ok a fluff question occurred to me and I figured this is the place to ask it.
Why are the lizardmen (or rather the Slaan) fighting?
They live on spaceships now don't they? Why don't they just stay there? Do they have any reason for summoning up those memories of dead lizardmen and doing down to the different realms to actually fight other than 'chaos is bad and needs to be opposed'?
Because the Slann are still pissed at losing their retirement homes in South America. They are cold-blooded after all and like the sun ;-)
Because they are demons of order and are geometrically opposed to demons of chaos.
Slann are not daemons. Learn your lore git . If I remember correctly they are going after their own agendas, continuing the long fight against chaos and a grand plan of their own. Not much else is available AFAIK
RoperPG wrote: You are *again* comparing the depth of a product that was designed, expanded and written over 30 years to one that is not even a year old.
"Depth" is one of those words that gets thrown around as a sort of contentless indication of quality, and it really shouldn't be. Thirty years of expansion has never made anything good. How was Star Wars doing after thirty years of tie-in drivel and horrible prequels? Anyone really want to say that Star Trek was rolling stronger than ever after five or six increasingly sterile series and endless forced films? I'm pretty sure you'll have a hard time finding people who think WHFB's last years were its best; hell, good luck finding anyone who's up on the material and thinks the Old World's golden age occurred in the last decade or two. Warmachine, Infinity, VOR, Warzone - all of these hit the market with strong, vital settings, and that's just off the top of my head. AoS is nine months in, and between the tide of battletomes, novels, short stories and audio dramas that have been pumped out, its word count towers above what any of those had after the same amount of time. Despite all that, it's still a feeble, unlovable fart of a universe. Even the game's biggest fans don't seem to think it's a particularly positive aspect of the product. That should probably tell you something.
This isn't just some little screw-up or momentary oversight on GW's part - it's the direct result of how they handle their IP anymore. Here's Aaron Dembski-Bowden on the writing process at Black Library these days:
A D-B wrote:
TDF wrote:Does the Black Library approach individual authors and ask them to write about faction X, or do they put out a general notice "if anyone wants to write about faction X, we need a short story done by Y date"? If you don't mind me asking.
Most of the time it's the former, these days. I've not heard much of the latter. A rare few authors still traditionally pitch their own ideas rather than being asked to write to brief, but that's increasingly uncommon.
This isn't the sort of environment where people are going to chug along a track of trial-and-error for a few years, then finally bring forth something worth remembering. GW isn't a hungry little company looking for success anymore, they think they already have all the tools for success, and AoS is the setting they made with those tools. That it's not been a success should probably get them to re-think their priors in that regard, but I severely doubt they've got the wherewithal for that kind of self-examination. If they did, they probably wouldn't be in this situation.
coldgaming wrote:In all venues where it appears, I love the cry of "they're just doing it for the sales!" Sales, which by nature means appealing to the customers' desires, of course. And yet at the same time, these companies, GW in particular, get blamed for following their own desires and ignoring market research, which critics say would theoretically improve sales. Whatever is negative at any given moment is the side to be on.
When I tell you this, know that I am speaking from the experience of someone who has spent the last several years of his career within a sales environment: The fact that someone in sales thinks a thing will work very rarely has much to do with how likely it is that said thing will actually work. If we knew what we were doing with any real precision, we would already have all of your money, and you would be thanking us for it.
coldgaming wrote:In all venues where it appears, I love the cry of "they're just doing it for the sales!" Sales, which by nature means appealing to the customers' desires, of course. And yet at the same time, these companies, GW in particular, get blamed for following their own desires and ignoring market research, which critics say would theoretically improve sales. Whatever is negative at any given moment is the side to be on.
When I tell you this, know that I am speaking from the experience of someone who has spent the last several years of his career within a sales environment: The fact that someone in sales thinks a thing will work very rarely has much to do with how likely it is that said thing will actually work. If we knew what we were doing with any real precision, we would already have all of your money, and you would be thanking us for it.
I agree with that, but it's a bit of a tangent from my post. "They're just doing it for the sales" might have the implication of "they're just doing it for *what they think* will sell," but I've seen that statement rarely qualified as such.
But away from the literal interpretation, armchair commentators think they know how to run GW better than GW, think they know how to sell more models than GW (look at the comments about market research), but these perpetually critical people seem to fly with the wind of negativity more than a consistent perspective.
Basically, I was saying GW gets criticized by the same people for everything from Sunday: that they are only trying to sell models, that they are not trying *what the commentator thinks would work* to sell models, etc.
CoreCommander wrote: Slann are not daemons. Learn your lore git . If I remember correctly they are going after their own agendas, continuing the long fight against chaos and a grand plan of their own. Not much else is available AFAIK
Lol, I can't believe you just called me a git.
But you're right, they are going after their own agendas. Which just so happens to be a huge game of drawing dot-to-dot :-p
coldgaming wrote:In all venues where it appears, I love the cry of "they're just doing it for the sales!" Sales, which by nature means appealing to the customers' desires, of course. And yet at the same time, these companies, GW in particular, get blamed for following their own desires and ignoring market research, which critics say would theoretically improve sales. Whatever is negative at any given moment is the side to be on.
When I tell you this, know that I am speaking from the experience of someone who has spent the last several years of his career within a sales environment: The fact that someone in sales thinks a thing will work very rarely has much to do with how likely it is that said thing will actually work. If we knew what we were doing with any real precision, we would already have all of your money, and you would be thanking us for it.
I agree with that, but it's a bit of a tangent from my post. "They're just doing it for the sales" might have the implication of "they're just doing it for *what they think* will sell," but I've seen that statement rarely qualified as such.
But away from the literal interpretation, armchair commentators think they know how to run GW better than GW, think they know how to sell more models than GW (look at the comments about market research), but these perpetually critical people seem to fly with the wind of negativity more than a consistent perspective.
Basically, I was saying GW gets criticized by the same people for everything from Sunday: that they are only trying to sell models, that they are not trying *what the commentator thinks would work* to sell models, etc.
If they were trying to sell models they'd drop the price, they think they are selling collectable models, but they have the wrong set up for that.
Models for AoS and 40k are decorative wound counters that's what they are for but GW is trying to make out they are works of art you should put on display.
Simply put while they are great looking wound counters they are pretty bad by collectable standards, you can get a much superior kit for a tank for less than a rhino for example.
Asking £100 for seven cad designed models is insanity, as is the same price for 21 dwarves, wfb was expensive but it was far better value for money than anything AoS has presented.
GW is geared towards mass production so should be focused on sales by volume not it's current strategy of pretending it's the Apple of wargaming and raising prices to stupid levels assuming people will buy it because it's got games workshop on the box.
It's not required for you to work in the industry to understand how they are messing things up, just common sense.
I've brought this up many a time on Dakka but I will not believe they are a 'model' company and that the rules are unimportant until they move away from plastics for things like characters and monsters and start producing things like civilian models that have no rules, dioramas, or busts.
Until they do some of those basic, basic things that any model company would do they are a gaming company and need to realize that.
GW is geared towards mass production so should be focused on sales by volume not it's current strategy of pretending it's the Apple of wargaming and raising prices to stupid levels assuming people will buy it because it's got games workshop on the box.
It's not required for you to work in the industry to understand how they are messing things up, just common sense.
Really? It may or may not be true, but it feels like anything but common sense. You are selling something which is a hobby, for which people usually only spend so much spare money per month at most. Equally neither the collector nor the gammer needs volume, they only need the limited number of models to meet some goal - e.g. 1 Monster for the collection, or army. A unit for an army. You are aiming at a very small amount of population, with the vast majority being those who won't be interested no matter how cheap it is.
Who is buying this volume? The very few who buy 1000s of minis for vast collections, but are still on a budget of some description, and are already probably spending it on you - volume may sell more product but at lower profit. The young kid who has a few quid pocket money, and some Xmas/birthday money and if he's lucky can get a bit from parents. Having just got into the hobby they are probably already spending all they will on you due to 'buzz' factor as well. The rest who probably just spend X amount per month rounding out their army, and don't have time due to work/family etc to take on volumes of more minis, so might even spend less if it is cheaper.
Certainly for myself I would like cheaper (of course) but it might not make a big difference to how much stuff I bought as even now I don't keep up with what I buy, hence GW may get less money. I may make an extra impulse buy per month, but unless that makes up for losing on the cheaper price of what else I bought it may not be worth it.
Their will be some who might like volume sell, but it will be a minority. GW models are not some mass commodity product that eveyone wants yet more of. 99.95% of the population probably have zero interest in wargaming minis at all, so you aren't getting more from them no matter how cheap.
Lowering prices 'might' help, but not because they are looking for volume selling, but because they are looking for 'perceived value' to stop people moving away to KOW or whatever. Percieved value of course involves a lot more than just price and volume.
I think the point is that within the modeling hobby plastic is the mass produced material. Metal or resin produce better results than plastic, but are cheaper raw materials. Plastic has a higher up front expense as the moulds are more expensive to make, but once the moulds are paid off the material costs practically nothing. So if you expect to sell X number of units where X is significantly higher than the number needed to recoup the costs of the original mould then plastic is the most cost effective. If you expect to sell less than X metal or resin is better with larger costs per unit to produce, but much lower costs for the mould.
GW act like they are selling Ferrari, but everything about their production is aimed at mass producing with inferior materials because that is the most cost effective.
jonolikespie wrote: I think the point is that within the modeling hobby plastic is the mass produced material. Metal or resin produce better results than plastic, but are cheaper raw materials. Plastic has a higher up front expense as the moulds are more expensive to make, but once the moulds are paid off the material costs practically nothing. So if you expect to sell X number of units where X is significantly higher than the number needed to recoup the costs of the original mould then plastic is the most cost effective. If you expect to sell less than X metal or resin is better with larger costs per unit to produce, but much lower costs for the mould.
GW act like they are selling Ferrari, but everything about their production is aimed at mass producing with inferior materials because that is the most cost effective.
Exactly they are not making limited runs for collectors they are mass producing models for a game over years.
Mass produced stuff very rarely if ever goes up in value, in the case of their failcast the model may not even last year's.
So if your mass producing an item you want to sell in bulk.
puree wrote: Really? It may or may not be true, but it feels like anything but common sense. You are selling something which is a hobby, for which people usually only spend so much spare money per month at most. Equally neither the collector nor the gammer needs volume, they only need the limited number of models to meet some goal - e.g. 1 Monster for the collection, or army. A unit for an army. You are aiming at a very small amount of population, with the vast majority being those who won't be interested no matter how cheap it is.
But with the current pricing GW drives away money elsewhere. Rather than get X from person A the person A spends that X elsewhere. Why? They get better value fro money elsewhere.
Funny how other companies can provide better value for money when it's GW whose logistics is set up to OWN other companies in that regard. GW could swamp market with affordable high quality plastics but they won't. So other companies who can't afford to do it that easily(yet manage to do it anyway) gets to do that instead.
Gamers definitely need volume. Especially when GW has made their games so that one box is not enough. Sure modelers might just want one box of each but despite what GW seems to think those are not where bulk of sales come. That's from gamers who are buying 4+ boxes to get the armies playable.
Well. GW wants to not sell...Result is clear. In a world where other companies are INCREASING their sales GW is losing. 'nuff said about the effectivity of GW's strategy.
Point in fact the wargaming area went up 20% while gw continued to shrink.
There's plenty of interest in wargames right now as long as they are not made by gw.
Two factors come up again and again price and rules, the first they could fix easily and win back alot of customers who want to play but can't afford it.
The second I don't think they can fix without hiring new people.
But until they start communicating with people again and apologize for the crappy way they've acted for years they'll never rebuild the bridges they burnt.
No one's going to give gw the benefit of the doubt ever again.
hobojebus wrote: Point in fact the wargaming area went up 20% while gw continued to shrink.
There's plenty of interest in wargames right now as long as they are not made by gw.
Two factors come up again and again price and rules, the first they could fix easily and win back alot of customers who want to play but can't afford it.
The second I don't think they can fix without hiring new people.
But until they start communicating with people again and apologize for the crappy way they've acted for years they'll never rebuild the bridges they burnt.
No one's going to give gw the benefit of the doubt ever again.
Nah I'd point to my heart because seeing Kirby driving the company off a cliff hurts me.
I'm a 20 year vet I've played wfb and 40k for all that time but AoS killed fantasy games dead locally and 7th killed 40k so yeah I'm not happy with GW right now.
Which is why I haven't bought anything from them in years not even paint.
jonolikespie wrote: I've brought this up many a time on Dakka but I will not believe they are a 'model' company and that the rules are unimportant until they move away from plastics for things like characters and monsters and start producing things like civilian models that have no rules, dioramas, or busts.
Until they do some of those basic, basic things that any model company would do they are a gaming company and need to realize that.
aside from the CHS case, where has GW officially stated that they are a model company only, and not a game company as well???
i am of the opinion that this is internet hyperbole that people have chosen to run with...
the business model statement says that the GW customer collects, paints, and plays with their minis, in that order of priority...
yes, rules are important, but it is mini sales that float every company in this genre...
how can PP, CB, and any other company that provides the rules for free survive, if it isn't doing so with sales of the miniatures???
funny enough, i own civilian models, dioramas, and busts from GW...
even funnier, GW has been about selling models first and foremost since day one, when Ansell took over from Jackson and Livingston...
the rules have always been a vehicle to sell models, and it is the same across the industry...
as for plastic not being worthy of collecting, that is rubbish...
a well done plastic kit is way more convenient to work with than a metal or resin mini, and has almost no chance of a miscast...
the amount or resin and metal minis that i've bought, only to have them show up in a horrible state is mind-blowing, yet i have never had to return a plastic mini...
KD and Wyrd have shown that plastics are amazing, if the GW prices and aesthetic are not for you...
i love my good resin casts, and enjoy working with metal, but plastic is king, and getting better all the time...
honestly, i get the price argument, especially from the Aussies and Kiwis, but not the material argument...
the end result of the look of a mini is way more important than the material used to cast it...
pvc has been a total pain, but metal, resin, and HIPS are all worthy materials...
i just bought the $70 Nuts Planet Shieldmaiden bust this weekend...
is it more worthy of being in a collection than the $30 Auric RuneMaster simply because it's resin???
i don't think so...
they both evoke a certain story, and do the job of inspiring a paint job equally for me...
different strokes for different folks...
Well there is all their investor reports which have stated it.
I don't know if you consider GW redshirts saying it official, but I do as it is clearly a response they have been trained to give to certain questions (like 'why do these rules suck?').
none of those investor reports say that they don't make games to be played with their minis, or that those minis are not intended to be used in their games...
this is why i keep saying that the whole "we are a mini company" thing is taken out of context, and then to the extreme...
there was a lot of gameplay going on at the convention i attended last weekend, both for 40K and AoS...
the LVO just happened the weekend before, and had a large attendance, so i would say that the rules sucking is pretty much a personal call, and one that not everyone agrees with...
plenty of people still play...
if you want to be angry at GW's direction, that's understandable, but i don't see as much hate in person as i do online...
personally, i've never had a redshirt tell me that GW is not a game company...
they try to push core box purchases, after all...
of course, i go into GW stores to share my love of the settings, and show off nicely painted minis, rather than harass the redshirt, and put him on the spot...
it is very obvious that GW makes games, produces art, and has fiction written to make people want to buy models, just like every other big name in the industry...
i don't see why that is a problem...
The last entry in the swirly time line in Balance of power mentions a roar from Dracothion and gates unlocking in the vaults extremis. So Vandus coming back from the dead(again) on a big ass dragon to fight Archaon?
i like the fluff...
Chris Wraight, Guy Haley, and Josh Reynolds are all authors that i enjoy reading...
i think that blowing up the Old World was a ballsy move...
there is now a whole new setting to explore, and i can still enjoy my Old World and Time of Legends novels just as much as i did before...
i like the Asgardian nature of the Stormcast...
i like that Khorne is still taking skulls, and Nurgle has taken up gardening...
i am patient, so as much as i would want to know about the Shadowkin, i can wait...
the Fyreslayers are a cool concept, so i'm stoked we have gotten to them...
all i ask of fiction is that it entertains me...
GW has always done the job since the very first WHF Roleplay rulebook and the Ignorant Armies anthology...
the best part is, that everything feels new and fresh again...
i look forward to learning more about what is going on...
not that i ever felt like the Old World had gotten stale, but the Time of Legends novels were a really cool move by GW, and a lot of fun to read...
the AoS setting gives me that same desire to explore new things...
