Dwarven Forge Kickstarter 4 is now live. This time the theme is castles.

Add-on sets are listed here: http://www.dwarvenforge.com/kickstarter-4-add-on-sets/

p.5 Mountain pack, Mountain floor, Stone bridge add-ons

Now live:











Preview pix:

More teaser pix in the spoiler:
link to more pix: link

Over 100 different sculpts of pieces (this probably includes miniature soldiers)
It sounds like it will not be cheap. Stefan's own words from the DF forums: "I think $1500 is what I personally would want to invest in this upcoming feature." and "$300 or so will get you at least a kewl modular tower"

Price aside, the walls sound cool. Again from Stefan: "the walls are really, really kewl, much better than the improvised use narrow passages to make city walls...these are true City Walls with passages in them." He describes the walls as "massive."

$300 for a 'just' a tower?

Looks to be a bit too rich for my blood.

Especially with Renedra's plastic castle coming soon...

Although sure, I'd prefer a round tower but not at that price difference!

300 bucks?? that better be a massive tower of doom

It really puts the Miniature Building Authority castle kickstarter into perspective, doesn't it?

Reading the title I was thinking this might be my first Dwarven Forge Kickstarter; especially since castles sound right up my alley(especially since it starts after March). $300 for a tower might be better put elsewhere, but I'll wait for the campaign to launch and give it a gander then.

For that kinda money, I'd rather just get a couple of buildings from Tabletop World. This town gates costs 250 euros, which is around $280 with todays exchange rate.

I always thought Dwarven Forge was a bit pricey, but this is mental.

Good luck, I guess.

DF just posted a second teaser pic that I added to the first post. It shows some new walls next to the DF village from KS3.

$300 for a tower though..

Goodness, makes me want to invest in Hirst Arts molds....

The Auld Grump

ive went pretty hard at the DF stuff in the last 2 KS but at 300 for a tower this one is likely out of my reach

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Goodness, makes me want to invest in Hirst Arts molds....

The Auld Grump

That's just what I was going to say. For $300, you can get enough HA molds, good plaster, glue, paint, etc., to build one helluva castle, and not just one tower. Sure, you have to invest time into it, but at least the casting process allows you to be doing other stuff at the same time.

Two words:
Castle Craft


It's made by the Tehnolog folks. The figures are oversized kids toys but the multipart castle kits are mix and match.

I've been interested in dipping my toes in Dwarven Forge but their normal prices are high and this.. $300 tower business is mental.

Castle Craft eh.. hmm.. I googled and it looks like it's only available in Russia.. any places in the US selling it at all?

Just ebay that I could find. Have a few boxes of it in the basement.

The overwhelming sentiment has more to do with the cost vs. an actual comparison to the other products being mentioned

Tabletop World is amazing stuff. I own some. I covet it and hope to own more in the future. It's made of resin. I've broken pieces. It's not modular. It's not pre-painted. That, right there throws it into the realm of personal opinion vs. fair comparison so the point isn't made or accepted.

Hirst Arts are great building blocks to make bigger builds. I own molds. I continue to buy molds and use them to create new and unique pieces. Most people use plaster-based materials to cast, some use resin. Nobody is using PVC which is what Dwarven Forge is made of. Hirst Arts is labour intensive to create and build stuff. It doesn't come prepainted. It's mostly intended to build something greater than the sum of it's parts, and permanent, like a building. It probably comes the closest to a comparison with Dwarven Forge since you can create modular pieces and cast accessories such as barrels and sacks, and the like. However, the two serve fundamentally different needs.

Castle Craft - never heard of it before. I have toy castles I've bought my son... and that's about that. I won't even bother with this comparison.

jchunick wrote:
The overwhelming sentiment has more to do with the cost vs. an actual comparison to the other products being mentioned

Tabletop World is amazing stuff. I own some. I covet it and hope to own more in the future. It's made of resin. I've broken pieces. It's not modular. It's not pre-painted. That, right there throws it into the realm of personal opinion vs. fair comparison so the point isn't made or accepted.

Hirst Arts are great building blocks to make bigger builds. I own molds. I continue to buy molds and use them to create new and unique pieces. Most people use plaster-based materials to cast, some use resin. Nobody is using PVC which is what Dwarven Forge is made of. Hirst Arts is labour intensive to create and build stuff. It doesn't come prepainted. It's mostly intended to build something greater than the sum of it's parts, and permanent, like a building. It probably comes the closest to a comparison with Dwarven Forge since you can create modular pieces and cast accessories such as barrels and sacks, and the like. However, the two serve fundamentally different needs.

Castle Craft - never heard of it before. I have toy castles I've bought my son... and that's about that. I won't even bother with this comparison.

Are you from Dwarven Forge or what? You're quickly dismissing Castle Craft as a "toy castle" but what you're not seeing is the company's record.. They are well known for making not-40k stuff and then bundling goofy kids stuff with it so it's just left of center. There's a massive castle done with their kits that you would never know was not a historical castle kit.
Found it.. This is what you can do with the modularity of their kits.



As to availability.. it's hit or miss. Sometimes I get lucky on Amazon or google shopping searches but usually Ebay.
EDIT:
And yes.. for clarity.. the cost is bonkers on the DF stuff. There are SO many alternatives out there that are nowhere near that price.

 Alpharius wrote:
$300 for a 'just' a tower?
Looks to be a bit too rich for my blood.
Especially with Renedra's plastic castle coming soon...
Although sure, I'd prefer a round tower but not at that price difference!

Whatever happened to Tabletop Workshop? They seem to have just ...disappeared about a year ago. A shame since they had some nice terrain tooled in plastic.
https://www.facebook.com/Tabletop-Workshop-563457086999981/


Technolog terrain is actually pretty good, especially for the price point. Despite having a Mighty Fortress and two Warhammer Fortresses + extras, I could potentially be tempted by some affordable extra castle elements. Damn. I should paint those up sometime...

 MLaw wrote:

jchunick wrote:
The overwhelming sentiment has more to do with the cost vs. an actual comparison to the other products being mentioned

Tabletop World is amazing stuff. I own some. I covet it and hope to own more in the future. It's made of resin. I've broken pieces. It's not modular. It's not pre-painted. That, right there throws it into the realm of personal opinion vs. fair comparison so the point isn't made or accepted.

Hirst Arts are great building blocks to make bigger builds. I own molds. I continue to buy molds and use them to create new and unique pieces. Most people use plaster-based materials to cast, some use resin. Nobody is using PVC which is what Dwarven Forge is made of. Hirst Arts is labour intensive to create and build stuff. It doesn't come prepainted. It's mostly intended to build something greater than the sum of it's parts, and permanent, like a building. It probably comes the closest to a comparison with Dwarven Forge since you can create modular pieces and cast accessories such as barrels and sacks, and the like. However, the two serve fundamentally different needs.

Castle Craft - never heard of it before. I have toy castles I've bought my son... and that's about that. I won't even bother with this comparison.

Are you from Dwarven Forge or what? You're quickly dismissing Castle Craft as a "toy castle" but what you're not seeing is the company's record.. They are well known for making not-40k stuff and then bundling goofy kids stuff with it so it's just left of center. There's a massive castle done with their kits that you would never know was not a historical castle kit.
Found it.. This is what you can do with the modularity of their kits.



As to availability.. it's hit or miss. Sometimes I get lucky on Amazon or google shopping searches but usually Ebay.
EDIT:
And yes.. for clarity.. the cost is bonkers on the DF stuff. There are SO many alternatives out there that are nowhere near that price.

Actually I was pretty clear that I don't know anything about Castle Craft... and re-reading what was originally written as I was about to copy/paste it here I quite literally (as I'm typing this) realized that I misread it as the Castle Craft stuff were kids' toys (not the figures).

It looks neat, but definitely not my style... much closer to MBA, IMO. Far too small in scale for the type of roleplaying I like to do with terrain.

If the argument is price then MBA is very pricey - more than Dwarven Forge.

Consider, as well:
1) The material being used. The pieces are made of a PVC material which means you can literally toss the pieces into a bag and take it over to a friends' house. People do this with the product and list it as unique feature that has worth.
2) The modularity. Some systems are more modular than others. With a system built for modularity, you don't just get full structures that can be reconfigured - you can actually build walls as high as you can afford, or towers as high. You can swap out the battlements/crenellations and configure things in a more granular way, if only to change up gameplay, or maybe for the purpose of copying a particular setting or story. By far, this is probably the biggest selling point.
3) Prepainted. Being able to use the modular terrain right out of the box because it's prepainted comes with a bit of a premium. Dwarven Forge pieces are known for having good paint jobs.
4) It holds it's cost. Many gamers change their stuff up, so will sell old stuff to finance new stuff. Dwarven Forge pieces hold their value.
5) It has an earned reputation for being the standard in modular gaming tiles.
6) Scale. It's 25mm scale so 1"=5'.
7) Backwards Compatible. For the most part, Dwarven Forge is backwards compatible with their older sets, including the resin sets. There are incompatibilities and issues here and there, but these are not insurmountable.
8) High Quality Craftsmanship. There is no argument that the sculpting that goes into the pieces is top quality.

There's no doubt you can spend a lot on any hobby, and with limited funds (some more than others) everyone has to make their own tough decisions on how to maximize the value in what they spend their hard-earned money on. I wouldn't presume to think I know what's best for anyone. However, I can only go on what I'm reading and there's a lot of, "It's too much money." and that's simply an opinion without anything else. Seems like a waste of time and effort to simply give an opinion on a forum when the whole point of a forum is to discuss things with others. An opinion isn't discussion. And if someone is going to make comparisons, don't be lazy or superficial about it. I spent a lot of time in pointing out differences between the systems and that seems to me to be more worthwhile than a personal opinion and some vague hand-waving about some cheaper terrain.

To be fair, your posts do read very much as though you work for or have strong associations with Dwarven Forge. Especially given how your only posts or discussion in the better part of 2 years on this particular online forum are on how awesome the DF stuff is...

Jchunik: I'm not actually sure what you're hoping to accomplish.
I "think" you're saying the same thing as us.. which.. is basically:
"That price point is high" and "there's many other kits out there".
What I can't tell is whether you're trying to establish the merits of forking out a buttload of cash for DF stuff or if you're just typing up things that are valid observations without leaning one way or the other..

DF using 28mm scale.. 1" = 5' is not DF using that scale for compatibility.. They're using that scale because DnD miniatures and other roleplaying games have adopted that as the standard where miniatures are concerned. DF simply fell in line. There are MANY 1" companies out there.

As to compatibility within their sets.. I guess I don't know enough about their ranges to care about this. To me, a castle and tower being compatible with a dungeon is seemingly a non-issue.

Standard in gaming is really a self-proclaimed title. They got a lot of press and have a lot of friends. However, Dungeonstone is reportedly just as good or better, barring it's not pre-painted. Cheaper too.

As to craftsmanship.. The pieces are generic. It would be more off topic than we might be already (I think we're on topic but sometimes these types of discussions get shut down). To me it's cookie cutter stuff that I "could" do myself if I were motivated enough. Compare that to Zealot's forthcoming (very very slowly) Twisting Catacombs. The individual pieces OOZE style. By comparison, I can get cookie cutter dungeon stuff from Scotia Grendel for a song. I have an e-bay seller that does cool stuff too that I can't remember off the top of my head and it goes back and forth between really neat style to just cookie cutter type stuff.

I'm not trying to say DF is terrible. I'm not trying to disparage any of their kits or work.. but you seem to be driving the conversation to a specifically polarized viewpoint style discussion. That's almost always the outcome of this type of thing.. eventually it just devolves into "this is awesome and that sucks" type of debate.. because ALL of this is, as you said, opinions on the internet.

I like Dwarven Forge stuff.
I Do not work for Dwarven Forge or any of their associates.
I have a pretty good collection of their stuff that I have built up over the years since they started.
That being said, this newer PVC material is great. You could pick up your tower and throw it at the wall, then pick it up and rebuild it or build something else. I am not afraid to let kids play with it when they come to visit.
Yes, its expensive. So is GW stuff. Deal with it. GW had a combination of both the best and most affordable castle available in their Mighty Fortress, which was $99, and could be expanded with more walls or towers. Too bad GW, in their infinite wisdom, decided to take it OOP in favor of their new Uber-Expensive Skull-covered fortress of skulls or whatever they call that train wreck.

You also have 12k posts, so you're far less likely to be a sockpuppet. Having said that, looky here.

 Azazelx wrote:
You also have 12k posts, so you're far less likely to be a sockpuppet. Having said that, looky here.

Sorry can't see it, work blocked. I can tell it goes to ebay. Some treasure pray tell?

 snurl wrote:
I like Dwarven Forge stuff.
I Do not work for Dwarven Forge or any of their associates.
I have a pretty good collection of their stuff that I have built up over the years since they started.
That being said, this newer PVC material is great. You could pick up your tower and throw it at the wall, then pick it up and rebuild it or build something else. I am not afraid to let kids play with it when they come to visit.
Yes, its expensive. So is GW stuff. Deal with it. GW had a combination of both the best and most affordable castle available in their Mighty Fortress, which was $99, and could be expanded with more walls or towers. Too bad GW, in their infinite wisdom, decided to take it OOP in favor of their new Uber-Expensive Skull-covered fortress of skulls or whatever they call that train wreck.

So the durability is worth the higher cost, is what you're saying? Considering I don't have children, and the people I game with are usually fairly careful the durability is a non-issue for me, and not worth paying a higher price. Price is always worth discussing, regardless whether you think folks should just, "deal with it".

Maybe the price estimates for this KS are just off?

I hope?

Because at $300 for a tower and $1500 for a castle, yeah, I'd go with Tabletop World stuff first, even with any 'durability' concerns on using resin stuff.

Because at the end of the day, I'm not sure how much use a castle would ever see anyway.

A tower? Sure!

A castle? Not so sure!

 MLaw wrote:
Jchunik: I'm not actually sure what you're hoping to accomplish.
I "think" you're saying the same thing as us.. which.. is basically:
"That price point is high" and "there's many other kits out there".
What I can't tell is whether you're trying to establish the merits of forking out a buttload of cash for DF stuff or if you're just typing up things that are valid observations without leaning one way or the other..

DF using 28mm scale.. 1" = 5' is not DF using that scale for compatibility.. They're using that scale because DnD miniatures and other roleplaying games have adopted that as the standard where miniatures are concerned. DF simply fell in line. There are MANY 1" companies out there.

As to compatibility within their sets.. I guess I don't know enough about their ranges to care about this. To me, a castle and tower being compatible with a dungeon is seemingly a non-issue.

Standard in gaming is really a self-proclaimed title. They got a lot of press and have a lot of friends. However, Dungeonstone is reportedly just as good or better, barring it's not pre-painted. Cheaper too.

As to craftsmanship.. The pieces are generic. It would be more off topic than we might be already (I think we're on topic but sometimes these types of discussions get shut down). To me it's cookie cutter stuff that I "could" do myself if I were motivated enough. Compare that to Zealot's forthcoming (very very slowly) Twisting Catacombs. The individual pieces OOZE style. By comparison, I can get cookie cutter dungeon stuff from Scotia Grendel for a song. I have an e-bay seller that does cool stuff too that I can't remember off the top of my head and it goes back and forth between really neat style to just cookie cutter type stuff.

I'm not trying to say DF is terrible. I'm not trying to disparage any of their kits or work.. but you seem to be driving the conversation to a specifically polarized viewpoint style discussion. That's almost always the outcome of this type of thing.. eventually it just devolves into "this is awesome and that sucks" type of debate.. because ALL of this is, as you said, opinions on the internet.

To be honest, I don't know really what I'm trying to get at either.

I'm first a crafter. I've previously posted that I use Hirst Arts, for instance. I also do my own mods to existing terrain, including adding LEDs to pieces.

I'm second a gamer and use all sorts of terrain and miniature products from various companies, including Dwarven Forge.

Thirdly, I have done contract work for Dwarven Forge (I guess that's important in the interest of disclosure and all that - or for people to dismiss my viewpoint easily and possibly call me things like a shill or sockpuppet because... well, people).

The LED work I have done was noticed by Dwarven Forge and I was asked in KS3 to build the LED pieces (of which I'm very proud). I've subsequently been asked to further work on KS4 and have had more involvement with that.

I'm pretty much a normal person like anyone else here, I guess. For good or bad my handle everywhere on the internet has always been my name which means I'm easy enough to look up. So, I'm not some anonymous pimply teen or shady dude with a nefarious agenda (as cool - if not tropey - as that would be in a movie).

However, I guess like most, I tend to make poor decisions while surfing the internet late at night, hence the mistakes I've made in posting to this thread.

My "agenda" had started off more well-intentioned, if a bit misguided. I was checking out these forums to see if anything had been posted yet about KS4. It had. I thought, "Cool! Let's see what people think?"... then "Holy crap! I understand these are not the insular forums at Dwarven Forge, but what a completely different attitude than I'd expected." Then, as is obvious, I admittedly got a little butt-hurt over what I felt wasn't a fair comparison or even a consideration of the actual product, just a "it's too expensive, and instead I'd go for this comparative product." My points were those products are not comparative just because[i] they're also roleplaying solutions - in my opinion they target specific and different needs or criteria for different games and gamers.

Ultimately (and this is where I'd messed up here) I'm more interested in understanding what type of gamer people here are and what they are looking for - It's clear that Dwarven Forge is not it, but what characteristics make an appropriate product that meets your needs (and not just price)?

I've backed DF through their previous KSs. Tons of dungeon tiles, cavern tiles, but only the sewer set for their most recent "Cities" KS. I wanted them just for RPGs (which I don't play, just fantasize about...) and possibly skirmish/dungeon crawler games that I'd pimp out (which I rarely play, and also often fantasize about). For their previous KSs, I spend about $300 on the first (unpainted), $700 on the second (about the same amount, but prepainted), and $250 on the third (also unpainted, and much, much less stuff than KS1), and felt each consecutive KS was less of a bargain. Castles are less interesting to me, and at that price point, I'll also pass.

But I'm now intrigued by Castle Craft tehnolog, the Russian stuff. There's an ebay seller from Russia, so maybe I'll go with that - less than $100 looks like it would get me a whole lotta castle! Still, I could get this as my son's 4th birthday present... The wife would be none the wiser. Hmm...

For me, I'm looking for a decent looking product that can be taken from a shelf to a table, and back again. I'd prefer if it's ready out of the box, but requiring painting is a non-issue if it's modular or pre-assembled. It will be used for mostly miniature games, and rarely for RPG games.

I'm mostly sad I missed out on the first couple DF kickstarters as they had some neat stuff, but it does look as if Reaper is dipping it's toes in the market with terrain pieces made from Bones. I'm still interested in this Kickstarter, but I'm just waiting to see a confirmed price per pledge levels.

This forum likes all sorts of stuff. But if a product is felt to be way overpriced then it will receive the appropriate flack, just see any GW stuff or Mantics latest KS. I myself absolutely love DF stuff and can very easily afford to buy most of their products and an entire castle or two from their upcoming KS if the prices are to be believed but I feel their product are way overpriced and do not offer value for my £.

I have the Town Gate from Tabletop world and many of their other products. I love them. I also have boxes and boxes of Dwarven Forge. I use both.

Tabletop World is coming out with a city wall set and I want to see what they offer before I make up my mind on what to do about the DF castle.
I got into the DF KS1 and KS2 but passed on DF KS3 because of the cost and my perceived opinion of the quality.
I also went into the "not a KS" for the castle by Tabletop Workshop. I received the castle but not the Gatehouse before they went out of business. It's a shame as it was a pretty nice castle.
As for cost of the DF castle, I think it's up to what you can afford and what your wife will let you spend.

 Alpharius wrote:
Maybe the price estimates for this KS are just off?

I hope?

Because at $300 for a tower and $1500 for a castle, yeah, I'd go with Tabletop World stuff first, even with any 'durability' concerns on using resin stuff.

Because at the end of the day, I'm not sure how much use a castle would ever see anyway.

A tower? Sure!

A castle? Not so sure!

I think it's important to understand that some prices were thrown out, but there really are not too much specifics to go along with that. I don't even have any details on what will go into a tower that was priced at $300, but I do know that you can get the Wizards' Tower for $250 from MBA, so the price isn't outside of the market offerings from comparable companies, at all.

There's certainly quite a bit of variable needs by gamers and I think that's one of the benefits of a modular system to be able to get a tower if you want, or a wall system or the castle or all, and they can all stand on their own.

I don't agree that it's just "about what you can afford". If I can get 2 towers that are both of acceptable quality and one costs $60 and the other costs $300 then it would be dumb to buy the $300 one for any reason.
I'll explain.
If both are of acceptable quality then they are both of:
A) A standard of design that is desirable
B) A quality of material that is what is being sought
C) Applicable to the games and activities it's being purchased for.

Further.. The options we've already discussed exist now. Those are retail prices. Not Kickstarter prices. There's no wait past shipping and no concerns about what the final will look like since it's already in existence.

I would understand the painting thing.. except.. there are a ton of awesome painting services that would take... Let's say..
This http://minimonsters.eu/GuardTower.html $49 tower with a playable interior.. and assemble and paint it for you for probably $30-$50... at what I would assume would be a higher standard than DF..

Saying that since one or two other companies charge ridiculous prices for something is reason for another to do the same simply inflates the prices all across the board.


EDIT: For the people looking for the Castle Craft.. this guy has them.. note.. the first ones ARE in fact more for kids.. the better kits are further down.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/chief_fly/m.html?item=111673924867&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

or (thanks to beast of war for pointing it out) for £14



http://www.debenhams.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prod_10701_10001_171050908599_-1

needs a bit of work, but if you need a castle.....

Jesus, $300 for a tower? That's insane. I'm not sure why the prices arent more in line with the original dungeon kickstarter prices. That and the caverns were great value. With some tweaking, they could have easily made the town/castle similar, but they went with the stupid peg/wall system, and the price skyrocketed, and the piece count went way down. You had windows, curved walls, and large floor pieces in the game tiles 1st kickstarter. I can all but guarantee you will be able to build more, for less, with those than in this one.

 MLaw wrote:
I don't agree that it's just "about what you can afford". If I can get 2 towers that are both of acceptable quality and one costs $60 and the other costs $300 then it would be dumb to buy the $300 one for any reason.
I'll explain.
If both are of acceptable quality then they are both of:
A) A standard of design that is desirable
B) A quality of material that is what is being sought
C) Applicable to the games and activities it's being purchased for.

Ok, so pick two acceptable products and compare them?... those are all the factors you would look at?

I can tell you that what I value in terrain is this:
1. Aesthetics - does it meet a certain look that I am looking for? I've developed my sense of aesthetics over a lot of time and have some very specific things I look for - details, form, scale, clean lines, etc.
2. Modularity - it's actually something I've developed in my own work creating LED pieces and modding existing pieces or creating my own pieces. I like a piece or a group of pieces that go together to have the ability to be configured in various ways. This adds value in re-usability and variety.
3. Durability - what is the piece made of? How fragile is it? How durable is it? Do I have to worry about breaking and how easy is it to fix? How noticeable are chips or breaks?
4. Weight - how much does the stuff weigh? How easy is it to store or move?
5. Storage - this is a huge consideration. There are whole threads about this on forums I frequent. How much space does it take to store? Can you stack the pieces? Do you have to be careful when storing?
6. Setup - how easy is it to set up scenes/scenarios with the terrain?
7. Ready out-of-the-box - does the terrain come pre-painted? Can I unbox and start using it right away? Is the factory paint acceptable quality?
8. Does it meet my gaming needs?
9. Compatibility - is it compatible with other products from other companies?
10. Cost - how much does the product cost, and is there a comparable product at a cheaper price point? If it's expensive, is it something I absolutely need or just want really bad? What is the perceived value of it (higher or lower than the actual value)? How much use will I get out of it?

I guess if you shoehorn anything then you can force a point, but I think it's a more realistic list of factors that I've presented.

 MLaw wrote:

Further.. The options we've already discussed exist now. Those are retail prices. Not Kickstarter prices. There's no wait past shipping and no concerns about what the final will look like since it's already in existence.

I would understand the painting thing.. except.. there are a ton of awesome painting services that would take... Let's say..
This http://minimonsters.eu/GuardTower.html $49 tower with a playable interior.. and assemble and paint it for you for probably $30-$50... at what I would assume would be a higher standard than DF..

I think your two points above are entirely valid and I would agree they are important considerations.

 MLaw wrote:

Saying that since one or two other companies charge ridiculous prices for something is reason for another to do the same simply inflates the prices all across the board.

This one isn't. Again, saying it is a ridiculous price is a personal opinion. I use MBA as a legitimate comparable high-end product of similar quality, brand recognition, and industry leadership. Unless you could show me that their prices are so inflated vs. their costs that their profit margins are making them inordinately rich then I would say it's a losing argument. The other comparable factor is that the two companies are both from the US. Using the comparison of a Russian-based product that can be only found on ebay - was it? - is stretching it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Jesus, $300 for a tower? That's insane. I'm not sure why the prices arent more in line with the original dungeon kickstarter prices. That and the caverns were great value. With some tweaking, they could have easily made the town/castle similar, but they went with the stupid peg/wall system, and the price skyrocketed, and the piece count went way down. You had windows, curved walls, and large floor pieces in the game tiles 1st kickstarter. I can all but guarantee you will be able to build more, for less, with those than in this one.

Without knowing anything, but seeing a tower is $300 I'd go, "OMG!" as well. Reactionary? Entirely. Critical thinking, be damned ;-)

The minimonsters Tower I posted is not comparable? I know of many alternatives but posting ALL of them derails this thread. Others had covered some solid bases and I thought I would show an example of the most affordable (an entire castle for $40?) to show the full spectrum.
MBA as high end is also a matter of opinion. The Tabletop-World one is what I'd consider high end. Past that is where I start feeling like the things I'm seeing are absurd for the pricing. The notion of high end in and of itself for something as mundane as terrain is a really elitist sentiment as a matter of fact. Who is anyone to pass judgement on how high the quality of the set dressing for my army men or adventurers needs to be? ..or to say what is or is not the golden standard? I've never seen anything from DF that is stylistically high end. Their designs are passable for what they are but if you tell me something is high end or should cost a lot more than the average.. well, I expect to have my socks blown off when I see it. I expect it to be what I think of when someone tells me about terrain.
MBA isn't that for me either. It's probably well made but it just looks like a plain jane castle. Woo.. stone walls and stone towers. Unless there are design choices that are awe-inspiring or memorable then no.. IMO you don't get to claim that it's "high end". There's visually no difference.
Is it ready made? Pffff.. this is a hobby. McDonalds is "ready made" does that make it high quality?

This is the type of polarized discussion I said tends to happen. It's obvious that you simply want to shout down opinions that point out the shortcomings here. It's funny to me.. you just mocked someone for not using critical thinking but your posts are all one-sided soapboxing.

EDIT:
Since someone brought up GW as high end. Yeah.. they are usually on the pricey side.. that's a given.
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Dreadhold-Fort
$290 gets you more than a tower though.. again.. also not a Kickstarter.

I am still sad I missed their massive tower for $85 I think it was. Had I realized it was limited run, I would've probably prioritized it differently.

 MLaw wrote:
... if you tell me something is high end or should cost a lot more than the average.. well, I expect to have my socks blown off when I see it. I expect it to be what I think of when someone tells me about terrain

I hate it when people reply and just say "this" but ... this.

Shrug.

I lurk daily but rarely post. I’m also pretty much a newbie with modeling/painting/wargaming, so you have two valid reasons to ignore me if you want.

I’ve also invested pretty heavily in all 3 DF Kickstarters to date, and been very happy each time. For me, the DF PVC stuff is a perfect mix of solid heft, decent detail, respectable factory prepaint, and bulletproof durability. Actually, I’m not sure if it’s literally bulletproof, but there *are* videos of pieces being thrown off towers and driven over by trucks.

Here’s my one contribution: when we talk about storage, the DF stuff really is excellent. I plan on going big for this Kickstarter (been saving for six months), and the castle I plan to buy will still break down into boxes of not-outlandish size. For any resin pieces, particularly non-modular ones, a similar sized castle would require huge boxes because each individual piece needs foam on all sides. This stuff can be broken into component pieces and thrown in boxes without any worries or problems. For people living in New York apartments (and, ahem, a toy soldier acquisition disorder), it’s a legitimate concern.

That, plus the modularity, means that it’s also a truly excellent toy to let your kids have fun with. I can only imagine the fun we’re going to have together once our castle pieces arrive in 2017.

Yes, it’s expensive. I mean, this *is* a forum dedicated to adults playing with toy soldiers, so it’s not exactly the first expensive product to appear for consideration. I think it’s worth it, but maybe you don’t. That’s cool. I will admit, though, that we DF fans are concerned that the pool is shrinking. Each subsequent Kickstarter campaign has drawn more money, but done so with fewer backers. This is a trend that can’t continue too long, and of course we’re all hoping that backers will appear in sufficient numbers to allow for the stretch goal goodness we all crave. I’m guessing that’s part of what’s on jchunick’s mind. I suppose he could have mentioned his freelancer-connection to DF earlier in the thread, but he’s not a bad guy. I have a set of his LED light-up braziers from the last Kickstarter and they’re awesome.

Hey, just wait until the campaign launches, or even better, wait until we’re 3/4 done, and see what your money gets you. It’ll be expensive, but if you value modularity and durability, it just might be worth it...

jchunick wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
I don't agree that it's just "about what you can afford". If I can get 2 towers that are both of acceptable quality and one costs $60 and the other costs $300 then it would be dumb to buy the $300 one for any reason.
I'll explain.
If both are of acceptable quality then they are both of:
A) A standard of design that is desirable
B) A quality of material that is what is being sought
C) Applicable to the games and activities it's being purchased for.

Ok, so pick two acceptable products and compare them?... those are all the factors you would look at?

I can tell you that what I value in terrain is this:
1. Aesthetics - does it meet a certain look that I am looking for? I've developed my sense of aesthetics over a lot of time and have some very specific things I look for - details, form, scale, clean lines, etc.
2. Modularity - it's actually something I've developed in my own work creating LED pieces and modding existing pieces or creating my own pieces. I like a piece or a group of pieces that go together to have the ability to be configured in various ways. This adds value in re-usability and variety.
3. Durability - what is the piece made of? How fragile is it? How durable is it? Do I have to worry about breaking and how easy is it to fix? How noticeable are chips or breaks?
4. Weight - how much does the stuff weigh? How easy is it to store or move?
5. Storage - this is a huge consideration. There are whole threads about this on forums I frequent. How much space does it take to store? Can you stack the pieces? Do you have to be careful when storing?
6. Setup - how easy is it to set up scenes/scenarios with the terrain?
7. Ready out-of-the-box - does the terrain come pre-painted? Can I unbox and start using it right away? Is the factory paint acceptable quality?
8. Does it meet my gaming needs?
9. Compatibility - is it compatible with other products from other companies?
10. Cost - how much does the product cost, and is there a comparable product at a cheaper price point? If it's expensive, is it something I absolutely need or just want really bad? What is the perceived value of it (higher or lower than the actual value)? How much use will I get out of it?

I guess if you shoehorn anything then you can force a point, but I think it's a more realistic list of factors that I've presented.

Hell, compare it to the KS 1 and 2 value, and it sounds like a bad deal compared to their existing product. That's MY point. They need to ditch the peg/wall system which grossly inflated the price, and made it excessively fiddly to construct on the fly. You cant realistically use most of the interior of these buildings anyways.

I have to agree that their prices seemed higher per "unit" on KS3 than they did on the first two campaigns, high enough that I almost didn't jump in. But after looking at a few build examples and doing some experimenting on my own I saw the value.
I'm pretty sure that when Stefan said $300 for a tower he meant pretty awesome tower with an interior that would be re-configurable in several ways.

People are already comparing and worrying about prices in this thread. We don't know yet what a "$300" tower means, or what you'll be getting for your money, or even if 300 is the minimum buy in...

~iPaint

From comments on the Reaper forum

there are apparently about 100 unique pieces planned

to 'get everything' is going to cost $1500 or there abouts (presumably to build the castle)

$300 or so will get you a modular tower (direct from Stefan on the dwarven forge forum)

and analysis of the previous DF KS (thanks Carnaki the Ghost Finder) shows a progression from lots of people spending small sums to fewer spending a lot more, and this could continue the trend

DF One
Backers: 5396
Average Pledge Per Backer: $354

Funded: $1,907,790


DF Two
Backers: 3949
Average Pledge Per Backer: $542

Funded: $2,140,836


DF Three
Backers: 2718
Average Pledge Per Backer: $868

Funded: $2,358,900

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
From comments on the Reaper forum

there are apparently about 100 unique pieces planned

to 'get everything' is going to cost $1500 or there abouts (presumably to build the castle)

$300 or so will get you a modular tower (direct from Stefan on the dwarven forge forum)

and analysis of the previous DF KS (thanks Carnaki the Ghost Finder) shows a progression from lots of people spending small sums to fewer spending a lot more, and this could continue the trend

DF One
Backers: 5396
Average Pledge Per Backer: $354

Funded: $1,907,790


DF Two
Backers: 3949
Average Pledge Per Backer: $542

Funded: $2,140,836


DF Three
Backers: 2718
Average Pledge Per Backer: $868

Funded: $2,358,900

Interesting stats indeed!

It is the GW-ification of DF!!!

 Alpharius wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
From comments on the Reaper forum

there are apparently about 100 unique pieces planned

to 'get everything' is going to cost $1500 or there abouts (presumably to build the castle)

$300 or so will get you a modular tower (direct from Stefan on the dwarven forge forum)

and analysis of the previous DF KS (thanks Carnaki the Ghost Finder) shows a progression from lots of people spending small sums to fewer spending a lot more, and this could continue the trend

DF One
Backers: 5396
Average Pledge Per Backer: $354

Funded: $1,907,790


DF Two
Backers: 3949
Average Pledge Per Backer: $542

Funded: $2,140,836


DF Three
Backers: 2718
Average Pledge Per Backer: $868

Funded: $2,358,900

Interesting stats indeed!

It is the GW-ification of DF!!!

Funny you say that, given the appearance above of the usual "You can't judge it yet! We only have half/two-thirds/almost all/every morsel bar one of the info! Wait until you've owned the product for a few decades and had a chance to truly appreciate it, like a fine wine, before you say anything negative!" defence

New teaser pic. I don't have time to resize it so I'm sticking the giant image in a spoiler tag:

Another snippet from Stefan (from a few months ago): "the gatehouse will be as modular as we can manage it It will have massive doors, portcullis, and Drawbridge with chains"

jchunick wrote:
The overwhelming sentiment has more to do with the cost vs. an actual comparison to the other products being mentioned

Tabletop World is amazing stuff. I own some. I covet it and hope to own more in the future. It's made of resin. I've broken pieces. It's not modular. It's not pre-painted. That, right there throws it into the realm of personal opinion vs. fair comparison so the point isn't made or accepted.

Hirst Arts are great building blocks to make bigger builds. I own molds. I continue to buy molds and use them to create new and unique pieces. Most people use plaster-based materials to cast, some use resin. Nobody is using PVC which is what Dwarven Forge is made of. Hirst Arts is labour intensive to create and build stuff. It doesn't come prepainted. It's mostly intended to build something greater than the sum of it's parts, and permanent, like a building. It probably comes the closest to a comparison with Dwarven Forge since you can create modular pieces and cast accessories such as barrels and sacks, and the like. However, the two serve fundamentally different needs.

Castle Craft - never heard of it before. I have toy castles I've bought my son... and that's about that. I won't even bother with this comparison.

Hirst Arts is not all that time consuming - much of the time spent is passive - waiting for the dental stone/Hydro Cal to set.

Time that can easily be spent doing other things, such as painting miniatures.

It is also not that hard to paint - we are talking about 'spray paint and a wash' level of complexity - with a drybrush if you eel like it.

I have been painting dental stone terrain since 1980 - when i used the old Linka system moulds. ( Inexpensive and still around!.)

The price I am seeing quoted for the DF set?

Just plain not worth it.

I can get what I want, customizable and expandable, by other means. And at a good deal lower price.

In short - better and cheaper.

Holding out that the kits are prepainted is not a selling point for me - from my view I not only get to customize the kits using Hirst, I also get to paint it!

For $300 I can buy the molds and the dental stone to make an entire castle, not just a tower.

I am hoping that the price turns out to be wrong - I like Dwarven Forge - but not enough to pay $300 for a single tower.

The Auld Grump

Nothing will beat their first KS. That was the best KS ever in my opinion. I think as their popularity has increased because the basic tiles are such a good deal and got more people interested, they have been increasing their prices with each following KS.

Well, their pieces are more complex than they were in KS1 or KS2. Probably more expensive to produce too.

I can't wait to see what they have planned. I haven't been disappointed in there product so far, although I can't aford $1500.00. More than likely I'll buy an add on or two, if they make sense to me, something to fit in with the stuff I already have.

 snurl wrote:
Well, their pieces are more complex than they were in KS1 or KS2. Probably more expensive to produce too.

Yep. More complicated pieces, smaller runs per piece, less amortization per piece for the mold, so higher cost per piece.

DF's KS3 was pretty expensive per piece compared to KS1, so I'm not surprised KS4 will be costly.

Sure wish WizKids would bring back their towers and castle walls! No interior, but prepainted and useful for exterior play.

EDIT: Animesensei posted a link on the DF forums to a gallery of Stephan's other art! : http://bushwickdaily.com/2016/02/dd-at-56-bogart-meet-bushwicks-most-famous-gaming-gallerists/

Here's another teaser: looks like a few different battlements pieces, and a wall piece. Best guess is the corbels will be what holds the floor/battlements to the walls.



~iPaint

Email update:

Stefan has said that the entry point for stretch goals might be around 200-300, which admittedly has this ravenous fanboy of Dwarven Forge a bit nervous.

**NOTE: NOT ACTUALLY CONNECTED TO DWARVEN FORGE IN ANY WAY OTHER THAN GIVING THEM SOME MONEY IN THEIR KICKSTARTERS** since apparently we need to disclose that.

I remain optimistic, but have long feared that the description of this campaign might price me out of much participation. I was in for 3 unpainted sets in KS1, 2 painted sets and some add ons in KS2, and '2 sets' (effectively) painted plus a bunch of add ons in KS3.

It sounds like KS4 could break half a grand Canadian just at the entry point alone (including Shipping and the rough exchange rate).

Now, they've also said there'll be add ons for Castles and previous styles, so maybe this one will be where I just snag an add on or three and call it a day. The LED based stuff they produced last time is amazing, I would love to get more neat little bits like that.

Also, an aside about the 'stats' for the campaigns, keep in mind that Amazon Payments was gakking itself in the final days of DF KS1, which presumably impacted their funding total. Now, sure, people could (and probably did) fix that in the Pledge Manager, but that 1.9m probably could've been a lot closer to (or over) 2m before the PM at all. Not really an argument about the stats, just noting a little something people might not be aware of.

So yeah, I guess we'll find out in 4.5 days, but I'm not optimistic about being able to go in deep on this one. There does seem to be a trend of a smaller number of people pitching in a larger amount of cash as the campaigns go by, so as I've joked in the past, I half expect KS 12 to be funded by like 300 guys/gals pitching in $10,000 apiece.

If $200-300 just gets us a single tower, I'd still expect it to be a sizable chunk of pieces. The last one's SG entry point was $165 unpainted, $220 painted, for ~100 pieces.

Which, now that I think of it, might be the differential here, rather than a "$300 tower", perhaps that's more of a ~$200 tower (~$300 painted)?

Still very spicy/expensive, but if that and a $40-60 wall add on or two gets a decent keep or single castle wall setting going, that might not be the end of days compared to their previous works.

Similarly, $1,500 for a modular castle is certainly a ton, but we need more details. Single wall or outer and inner wall? How big is the keep? What kind of foot print are we talking? Stefan builds immense tables with this stuff, his idea of an ideal castle and my idea may be very different. Hell, if that's a full castle, but I only ever really need roughly half of one or less, that could be more manageable. And as long as they keep roughly the same piece footprint, I suspect I'll be able to buff up any such areas with piles of Dungeon tiles and maybe even some Caverns ones (rough hewn lower section of wall, etc).

I really feel their target audience shifted from regular DM's that actually use their stuff to run games to a few dudes who make setups just to take pictures (that no one will ever play on). The pieces from KS 3 are overly fiddly, expensive, and the setups look like they are just for the diorama makers because if you actually use the interiors you quickly see how impractical all those levels are from a gaming standpoint in terms of access. When you're running a game, no one wants to wait 10 minutes for the GM to assemble a bunch of walls, place furniture, etc for a room that the party wont be in 10 minutes later. Their whale backers lead them down a path thats just impractical for me unfortunately. :(

Oh well, at least I've got 5 sets from the 1st KS, which is more than I could ever see using.

Live.
I'll update the first post.

The first kickstarter was great.. but these prices make GW look like a bargain bin deal (which is pretty impressive).

El-Oh-friggin-El. What a joke. Good thing they unlocked 3 tiny waving flag pieces for your $500 pledge! It looks better than the Russian Castlecraft stuff, but not 10X better.

the stuff is sexy no doubt but this KS is a bit outside my price range for what I would use it for

NOTE: You don't even qualify for free stretch goals and add-ons unless you're in for almost $200... WOW.. what a joke..
I honestly don't even think these look that good. Them having to be modular means they lack the character of a sectional piece like you'd see from Tabletop World or similar. IMO, this looks about like the GW Fortress kit. Also, what's the point of it being modular if all you can really do is make it a bigger or smaller box?

I agree that the perceived value for the DF KSs has been...diminishing. KS1 was almost irresistible, KS2 was still pretty great, KS3....was a tough call. I ended up going fairly heavy into it anyway. because damnit I just love the idea of having a tiny village.

And now I would love to have a castle to put in the middle of that village, but the sticker shock here is tough to overcome (especially since I realized after KS1 that pre-painted is the way to go - I still don't have all 5 KS1 sets totally finished). Worse, I don't love the look of these walls. They're a bit...flat, aren't they?

I assume there are going to be add-ons to jazz it up, so I'll wait and see what those look like. I just hate that we need to wait for them to be revealed, damnit.

The other thing I'm hoping to see are add-on packs in the theme of previous years. We need some more village pieces.

This is me being strong in the early days. I full expect to fold like a cheap suit halfway through.

I...I just realized that even their big sets do not come with battlements. Battlements are...extra?

I guess it looks a'ight when it's all put together, but still too rich for my blood.

One thing I do like that they make are their town road pieces with the cobblestones and sidewalks, but I think that would be out of my price range too since I'd need so much for just a 3x3 board, or even 2x2 for that matter. I keep telling myself I could build my own, I have the skills, it's just the time and new model ADD that would keep me from ever finishing it

 Fugazi wrote:
I...I just realized that even their big sets do not come with battlements. Battlements are...extra?

So I'm not the only one then.

Poor show indeed!

Nice looking, but impractical and terrible pricing.

No denying it is doing very well though. They must still have fans with deep pockets.

...I guess RPGers have...more money for stuff like this than miniature wargamers?!?

I'm just guessing of course, but still...ouch!

And yet, it will soon be at $500K on the first da of the campaign!!!

http://www.dwarvenforge.com/kickstarter-4-add-on-sets/
Added link to add-on sets in first post.

In my wild, lotto-winning dreams, I buy enough of these to build Krak des Chevaliers.

 BrookM wrote:

 Fugazi wrote:
I...I just realized that even their big sets do not come with battlements. Battlements are...extra?

So I'm not the only one then.

Poor show indeed!

Battlements were an add on for KS3, they pointedly didn't add them to the core tiers in recognizing that some of their backers wouldn't need them or see them as a detriment/waste of money.

KS3 stuff just hit their web store, so battlements can be bought and shipped *right now* if one wishes, and I figure/hope they'll end up as an add-on at some point in the campaign for those willing to both save on shipping and that are willing to wait a year.

 Alpharius wrote:
...I guess RPGers have...more money for stuff like this than miniature wargamers?!?

I'm just guessing of course, but still...ouch!

And yet, it will soon be at $500K on the first da of the campaign!!!

Ye gods, they're already at 836 backers for a total of $578,696 at this moment, making that an average of $692 per person.

 Forar wrote:
I figure/hope they'll end up as an add-on at some point in the campaign for those willing to both save on shipping and that are willing to wait a year.

And hopefully in appropriate distributions. For the Castle level, I'm counting a need for 14 straight battlements and 4 corner pieces. There's not a good way to get that number from the currently available sets (one is 12 straight pieces, one is 8 corners and 4 straights).

Dang... So expensive. and $100K between stretch goals (with the first being... a flag?!?) is a tough pill to swallow.

But Swallow I'm gonna... I'm in for the $410 painted castle. My excuse is that it'll be a playset for the boys. Until daddy needs it for... I'm not sure what for. I just want it.

Mountain cliff add-on set. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag because it's a giant image.

I would love to justify a Castle and a Watchtower, but with the hints they've dropped about LED pieces, I'm trying to show restraint in my tier to justify what I'll pick up in add ons. I love the braziers and the LED figure stands from KS3, so depending on what they have to offer this time, I could see myself going with just a Tower or Ramparts (I have battlements from KS3, so I could round that out with what I have on hand) and some add ons.

First I'll find out what I'm getting back from my tax return, and then we'll see about committing a financial mistake.

Edit: also, yeah, they often front-load some big stretch goals early on, when they're doing 50-100k+ in a day, and save some big ones for the end. They often swap in smaller goals in the middle when the funding trickles down considerably. Maybe it's just manipulating the numbers, but I've been happy with their rate of progression 3 campaigns in. I imagine we'll break 750k in a day or two, and by the time we make our way to 850k they'll have some other neat stuff lined up for us. This kind of 'lull' gives them a chance to get caught up/ahead of the game on graphics, pieces to meet demand, etc.

And if I'm not mistaken, this is their shortest campaign yet, so one way or another, we'll see what they have to offer in the next 3 weeks.

Wait.. how long has this been running now? I looked on the KS page and they're a lot closer to $1mil than I thought they would be with the pricepoints we're seeing..

It's also funny though.. that Dungeonstone's base sets are pretty much sold out..

These prices are just goofy. Pass.

Those cliffs look like they could work well with the caverns set, am I right?

I pledged big for the caverns but ended up selling it and breaking even... just couldn't justify that much money in modular tiles. I think it's prefect for RPGs, but as a wargamer it was actually Too modular for me. But if someone else has caverns I'd love to see the cliffs in use with them!

I got 2 sets from the Caverns KS, but I'm not sure I'll be getting the cliffs add on here. I agree they look fantastic, but I'm trying to keep my budget reasonable.

I figure between the dungeons, caverns, and city stuff I already have, a Ramparts or Tower would be nicely kitted out for some cool scenic moments, but unless I win the lottery I can't see myself getting a higher tier, especially if the add ons include some more awesome LED pieces and stuff like that.

I love and use DF but I just can't justify the cost of this castle. By the time I bought everything I would need to build what I wanted, I'd be divorced. After considerable consideration on both options, my wife won out. (not by much, cause I'm a castle nut)

I guess role players saved all the money they didn't spend on hundreds of miniatures to spend solely on this KS?

Peww i was in the first two dwarven forge Ks but the price have gone crazy

the winterdale Citadel comes much cheaper even if you include the price of a brand new 3d printer (like the prusa i3 or the XYZprinting da Vinci 1.0 ) !!!

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/winterdale-2-medieval-fantasy-citadel-collection#/story



and i think the result is even better looking than the dwarven forge pieces if you don't mind having to paint it yourself

I was actually just thinking about that... you could buy a cheap printer for $500 or so and print as many castles as you want.

even that method is still too pricey for me, but I keep saving and saving (and then spending on something else new & shiney)

As a mediocre painter, being able to get the pieces pre-painted is in fact a big part of the appeal. The $50-100 or whatever extra that I spend on the tier and add ons being painted works out to maybe a dollar or two per hour for as good or better a job than I'd be able to do myself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad there are other options out there. I'm a fan of what DF does, but it's healthier for consumers to have multiple options that fit their needs.

And even with that said, based on Kicktraq numbers, I'm not the 'standard' backer, which is to say some of these guys/gals are *crazy*. I'll toss in a couple hundred to expand the collection a little, but some of them talk about getting thousands of dollars in stuff delivered to the tune of hundreds of pounds. It's definitely not for everyone, but the people it IS for are prone to occasionally going a bit overboard.

you could also just take a subscription in a Fablab and then just pay for the plastic

that will cost you less than 2 dollars per module



what you see in the picture cost me aproximatly 5 usd to print !!

and i think all you see on the group picture in my previous post must cost way less than 100 usd to print

May I ask what model 3d printer you used for those pieces in the photos?

That printed stuff is pretty impressive.

DF is too rich for my government employee salary unfortunately.

Steffbxl wrote:
you could also just take a subscription in a Fablab and then just pay for the plastic

that will cost you less than 2 dollars per module



what you see in the picture cost me aproximatly 5 usd to print !!

and i think all you see on the group picture in my previous post must cost way less than 100 usd to print

What was this printed on? I haven't seen a single consumer grade printer that is this good.

If that's been done at a Fablab it will be a university/research group grade printer, usually with a technicial who knows how to use if properly so all you need is appropriate files (and usually some cash either for a monthly/yearly subscription and material)

that's the beauty of the Fablab concept for those that can get access to one

have a look to see if there is one near you https://www.fablabs.io/

they all have different set of equipment/skills/charges etc

 Ken Oakley wrote:
I love and use DF but I just can't justify the cost of this castle. By the time I bought everything I would need to build what I wanted, I'd be divorced. After considerable consideration on both options, my wife won out. (not by much, cause I'm a castle nut)

We'll let her know that so you can get your castle pieces.

So how do the cliff pieces work (if you already have some game tiles)? Do you build something tall with the game tiles and use the cliff pieces on the exterior?

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If that's been done at a Fablab it will be a university/research group grade printer, usually with a technicial who knows how to use if properly so all you need is appropriate files (and usually some cash either for a monthly/yearly subscription and material)

that's the beauty of the Fablab concept for those that can get access to one

have a look to see if there is one near you https://www.fablabs.io/

they all have different set of equipment/skills/charges etc

That seems pretty awesome. However, the closest to me is about an hour away. Think it's worth it?

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
El-Oh-friggin-El. What a joke. Good thing they unlocked 3 tiny waving flag pieces for your $500 pledge! It looks better than the Russian Castlecraft stuff, but not 10X better.

For those who might be considering the Russian Castlecraft sets... They're neat but not the right scale!

They are modeled in 1/72 scale, and are tiny up against Reaper Bones, GW or PP scale figures. The doors come up to the figure's head, a single 28mm figure barely fits atop one of their towers. Learn from my mishap: I bought two of the Castlecraft boxes, and down in my garage they will live from here on out!

Unless anyone wants a set of 1/72 castles. Then PM me and we can work something out!

Fablab sounds great.

Shame that of the 10 of them in Canada, none of them are even in my province (the most populated in the country).

I can totally foresee using 3D printers to make bits to enhance my existing terrain some day, but given the cost of the printer, the materials, and the need to find or make the files, I can't see myself going purely to that for terrain until the technology has not only evolved some, but also become vastly easier to get ahold of. There's definitely some printers here in Toronto, but their costs in time, materials, and opportunities are vastly more than "$2 US per item here", at least as of the last time I checked.

it would certainly be worth looking at their website and seeing what services they offer,
how much support they give in terms of techs,
could you leave stuff to be printed for you or do you have to be there?
what the costs might be,
what files their printers can run (a really important one if you are considering buying them)

and if it sound promising popping along to chat with them in person

also are you somebody who wants lots and lots of terrain for yourself (and your group/store) or only a few bits and pieces as the more you want the more potential savings to outweigh the hassle of travelling/learning how to do things/buying files etc

For lower end 3d printers, some public libraries now have one available. (Portland, Maine USA, as an example.)

The Auld Grump

There is a Fablab in Del City Oklahoma. It's about 20 minutes from where I live. I'm going to check it out tomorrow to see if it's compatible with the software on the kickstarter Hopefully I'll get an idea of cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is at a college.

 pancakeonions wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
El-Oh-friggin-El. What a joke. Good thing they unlocked 3 tiny waving flag pieces for your $500 pledge! It looks better than the Russian Castlecraft stuff, but not 10X better.

For those who might be considering the Russian Castlecraft sets... They're neat but not the right scale!

They are modeled in 1/72 scale, and are tiny up against Reaper Bones, GW or PP scale figures. The doors come up to the figure's head, a single 28mm figure barely fits atop one of their towers. Learn from my mishap: I bought two of the Castlecraft boxes, and down in my garage they will live from here on out!

Unless anyone wants a set of 1/72 castles. Then PM me and we can work something out!

I bought three sets for Frostgrave ruins and I think they will work great for that purpose (when I get to that project in 2034).
They are modular enough that you could probably do something with them to fix the scale but other options would probably make more sense once you open up the door to that much work.

In OT news, I have decided to develop my basement instead of buying a Dwarven Forge Castle. My kids need a place to play more than my angry barbarians apparently.

*You* decided this, or the significant other *you* decided for you?

Because I'm pretty sure I've heard myself say similar things in certain situations before, when I would have least expected words of the sort to actually come out of my mouth...

 Ken Oakley wrote:
There is a Fablab in Del City Oklahoma. It's about 20 minutes from where I live. I'm going to check it out tomorrow to see if it's compatible with the software on the kickstarter Hopefully I'll get an idea of cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is at a college.

STL is a file format for 3d models. It's one of the most common ones and I think it's the go to format for almost every 3d printer I've heard of. Not that I've been following them this year :/

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
*You* decided this, or the significant other *you* decided for you?

Because I'm pretty sure I've heard myself say similar things in certain situations before, when I would have least expected words of the sort to actually come out of my mouth...

I am pretty sure that if it were my good lady and I... it would be 'We'.

The Auld Grump, now mesmerized by the thought of a basement rec room...

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
*You* decided this, or the significant other *you* decided for you?

Because I'm pretty sure I've heard myself say similar things in certain situations before, when I would have least expected words of the sort to actually come out of my mouth...

We've been together long enough that it's hard to say...

Also the basement being finished will give us room for future castles, so I'm playing the long game.

 Forar wrote:
As a mediocre painter, being able to get the pieces pre-painted is in fact a big part of the appeal.

Just an FYI, but it is ridiculously easy to paint DF. You don't even have to be mediocre. And unlike minis, you don't have to concentrate too hard or use a magnifying lamp. You can do it while watching a movie or netflix or whatever.

Yeah, terrain in general looks fine with some big-brush base colors and a wash. Easy times.


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 pancakeonions wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
El-Oh-friggin-El. What a joke. Good thing they unlocked 3 tiny waving flag pieces for your $500 pledge! It looks better than the Russian Castlecraft stuff, but not 10X better.

For those who might be considering the Russian Castlecraft sets... They're neat but not the right scale!

They are modeled in 1/72 scale, and are tiny up against Reaper Bones, GW or PP scale figures. The doors come up to the figure's head, a single 28mm figure barely fits atop one of their towers. Learn from my mishap: I bought two of the Castlecraft boxes, and down in my garage they will live from here on out!

Unless anyone wants a set of 1/72 castles. Then PM me and we can work something out!

I recommended these so I feel bad if anyone bought them because of that. I thought the figures in their pictures were 28mm or bigger..

 Fugazi wrote:

 Forar wrote:
As a mediocre painter, being able to get the pieces pre-painted is in fact a big part of the appeal.

Just an FYI, but it is ridiculously easy to paint DF. You don't even have to be mediocre. And unlike minis, you don't have to concentrate too hard or use a magnifying lamp. You can do it while watching a movie or netflix or whatever.

I'm quite happy with the paint job I ended up doing on my Dungeon tiles (3 sets in grey, did a base coat, some minor detailing, and then two drybrush rounds).

It still took like an entire series on in the background to complete. (Spartacus, aka "Sex and Violence: The TV Series")

Paying like 20-30% more to not spend those dozens of hours on a job that'd be as good at best (probably considerably worse) is an exchange I'm okay with making.

It seems there's enough of a discussion that perhaps we should start a separate thread about perceptions of value in miniature gaming terrain, because while I can respect this project isn't for everyone, it's a little frustrating to be excited about their fourth campaign, but find the thread mostly people trying to convince me it's not as good as I think it is, despite owning a couple cubic feet worth of it.

Perception of value is like 90% of the News and Rumor discussion.. frustration is the other 10% (or maybe that's backwards)..

I don't think many people are saying that this is a bad product so much as that the price is simply bonkers. As was pointed out.. you could literally renovate your gaming room (or make one) for the cost of this.

 Forar wrote:
It seems there's enough of a discussion that perhaps we should start a separate thread about perceptions of value in miniature gaming terrain, because while I can respect this project isn't for everyone, it's a little frustrating to be excited about their fourth campaign, but find the thread mostly people trying to convince me it's not as good as I think it is, despite owning a couple cubic feet worth of it.

Ha you must be new here, welcome to Dakka Dakka! It wouldn't be a Dakka thread without someone('s) complaining about about price or something else (though in this case it's justified IMO as it's bad for the industry!).

Replace "Dakka Dakka" with "Life in General" and yeah, I agree with you!

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If that's been done at a Fablab it will be a university/research group grade printer, usually with a technicial who knows how to use if properly so all you need is appropriate files (and usually some cash either for a monthly/yearly subscription and material)

that's the beauty of the Fablab concept for those that can get access to one

have a look to see if there is one near you https://www.fablabs.io/

they all have different set of equipment/skills/charges etc

That's rather awesome, there's none near enough to me, but that print result is amazing, can't wait for consumer grade technology to catch up, it'll be amazing when it does, whole wargames business will be revolutionized.

How is this remotely 'bad for the industry'? According to Stefan, the offerings in this KS are running on thin margins, it's not like they're gouging people, and the last few pages have been indicative that they aren't running a monopoly on terrain.

Consumers have options, they have a consumer base who is willing to pay what they ask, I fail to see the problem.

overtyrant wrote:

 Forar wrote:
It seems there's enough of a discussion that perhaps we should start a separate thread about perceptions of value in miniature gaming terrain, because while I can respect this project isn't for everyone, it's a little frustrating to be excited about their fourth campaign, but find the thread mostly people trying to convince me it's not as good as I think it is, despite owning a couple cubic feet worth of it.

Ha you must be new here, welcome to Dakka Dakka! It wouldn't be a Dakka thread without someone('s) complaining about about price or something else (though in this case it's justified IMO as it's bad for the industry!).

That makes no sense. How could it possibly be "bad for the industry" to have new, different, or innovative products available? If they are more expensive than people are willing to pay, then people won't buy them and they won't catch on. That doesn't harm the industry any. It may hurt your feelings that there's something you want but can't afford, but I'm sure that's the case in just about every industry.

Albino Squirrel wrote:

overtyrant wrote:

 Forar wrote:
It seems there's enough of a discussion that perhaps we should start a separate thread about perceptions of value in miniature gaming terrain, because while I can respect this project isn't for everyone, it's a little frustrating to be excited about their fourth campaign, but find the thread mostly people trying to convince me it's not as good as I think it is, despite owning a couple cubic feet worth of it.

Ha you must be new here, welcome to Dakka Dakka! It wouldn't be a Dakka thread without someone('s) complaining about about price or something else (though in this case it's justified IMO as it's bad for the industry!).

That makes no sense. How could it possibly be "bad for the industry" to have new, different, or innovative products available? If they are more expensive than people are willing to pay, then people won't buy them and they won't catch on. That doesn't harm the industry any. It may hurt your feelings that there's something you want but can't afford, but I'm sure that's the case in just about every industry.

Ha! I can VERY easily afford this thanks to my very well paid job! It's bad for the industry as it will keep pushing prices up on a product that shouldn't cost as much, then others will follow as well and the price creep will continue.

Seriously.. if you don't think this is going to effect the prices of KS Terrain projects then you haven't been paying attention to what's been happening to the prices of KS Boardgames.

 MLaw wrote:
Perception of value is like 90% of the News and Rumor discussion.. frustration is the other 10% (or maybe that's backwards)..

I don't think many people are saying that this is a bad product so much as that the price is simply bonkers. As was pointed out.. you could literally renovate your gaming room (or make one) for the cost of this.

Or look at how many Hirst molds you can buy for the price of just the one tower from Dwarven Forge....

Still, they are getting the money they wanted, just not from me.

The Auld Grump

This would require Dwarven Forge to have some sort of massive grip on the market, to influence global pricing of something with a massive variety of options (as we've seen in the past few pages), from toys to 3D printed custom stuff to various other wargame terrain.

I can totally see it being too expensive for many people, I've even noted that I myself may well be priced out of the contribution I'd like to make, between the current (awful) exchange rate and the additional shipping fees (neither in DF's control).

But to call it 'bad for the industry' as though they're some kind of leader strikes me as requiring a citation. They're on their fourth KS, and while I've seen many similar (if not outright copycat) campaigns over the years, I wouldn't say they've impacted the prices at retail stores by any noteworthy margin.

Prices may well be going up based on inflation and cost changes in materials, production, shipping, whatever.

But they aren't going up (far as I can tell) based on Dwarven Forge running a ~$2m USD campaign per year for a couple thousand people. Hell, there are nearly 10,000 people *online on this very forum right now*.

If you can afford it and choose not to, that's totally your choice, but I don't for a second buy that somehow DF is harming global gaming terrain sales by catering to a niche of a niche market. If that's so evident, let's see the math/evidence that brings a couple of people here to that conclusion.

It doesn't take a grip on the industry.. It takes terrain companies starting Kickstarters looking at previous efforts like this and like Manorhouse etc.. to say.. "hey, that's what these guys are charging, that's where I should be".

AND.. by the way.. you are sending mixed signals.. If you think this is reasonably priced (which you indicated you don't) then this "should" be the prices others are charging. If you think this is over priced, then this is a bad move either on a consumer level or a industry level.. at least one or the other. It sounds a bit like you want to defend them because you like their products, which is fine.. but when you are also saying that it's overpriced, it makes it really hard to understand where you're coming from.

For me, if someone likes their products.. that's fantastic, I'll never tell someone "you can't like that" but at the same time, if I see what looks like a spade, I'm calling it that. This, is an overpriced toy.


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 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
Perception of value is like 90% of the News and Rumor discussion.. frustration is the other 10% (or maybe that's backwards)..

I don't think many people are saying that this is a bad product so much as that the price is simply bonkers. As was pointed out.. you could literally renovate your gaming room (or make one) for the cost of this.

Or look at how many Hirst molds you can buy for the price of just the one tower from Dwarven Forge....

Still, they are getting the money they wanted, just not from me.

The Auld Grump

Castles are big and easy enough really that if I need one, it'll probably be done in pink foam over a weekend. I've never needed one for roleplaying or tabletop though and don't feel particularly compelled by this. The design is boring and the value is horrid.

Look at the designs of the castle and other bits from that 3d printed project that's also in the N&R right now.. That stuff has style! The DF designs are something I could crank out using foamcore and cardboard.

 MLaw wrote:
It doesn't take a grip on the industry.. It takes terrain companies starting Kickstarters looking at previous efforts like this and like Manorhouse etc.. to say.. "hey, that's what these guys are charging, that's where I should be".

AND.. by the way.. you are sending mixed signals.. If you think this is reasonably priced (which you indicated you don't) then this "should" be the prices others are charging. If you think this is over priced, then this is a bad move either on a consumer level or a industry level.. at least one or the other. It sounds a bit like you want to defend them because you like their products, which is fine.. but when you are also saying that it's overpriced, it makes it really hard to understand where you're coming from.

For me, if someone likes their products.. that's fantastic, I'll never tell someone "you can't like that" but at the same time, if I see what looks like a spade, I'm calling it that. This, is an overpriced toy.

I never said it was over priced.

I said I might not be able to afford to participate to the degree I would like. Just because I want to spend $200 on a PS4 doesn't mean I expect a PS4 to cost $200.

I thought I made that distinction pretty clear. There are people who relish sending thousands (plural) of dollars to each of these campaigns. I am not one of them. I'm pretty sure my contribution has been below the Kicktraq average for every single one, and this one won't be any different.

Just because I can't justify buying a Grand Citadel and a half dozen extra Watch Towers doesn't mean it's overpriced, it means I have a reasonable grasp of my financial limits and recognize I can't afford to buy everything I want.

Other companies are welcome to price their gak at whatever they like, and people will judge the value on its merits. Yes, I can look at a $100 kit for terrain at a local shop and say "I'd rather have a DF add on with fewer pieces that are practically indestructible", but that's my choice as a consumer to weigh out the pros and cons of a given product. Looking up Manorhouse as you recommend, it looks very nice, it's also expensive, and given their references to shipping securely, seems fragile. Just because it's 'gaming terrain' doesn't make it an apples to apples comparison.

And that's probably enough about...that now.

Back on topic - the topic being the "Dwarven Forge - KS 4 - Castles" thread.

Oh gak, it's the fuzz, everyone act natural! >.>

DF has released another update, which includes a link to a video that shows them setting up the massive castle they've been using for a lot of their promotional images/videos. Apparently it took about 10 hours, including time spent doing other things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08EFKx82JJA

I'm tempted to replace the generic 'epic music' with yakkity sax.

Neat video. So many pieces involved! It's like some of those insanity inducing Lego builds.

Yakkity Sax also seems like way more appropriate music.

It had to be done.

http://www.youdubber.com/index.php?video=08EFKx82JJA&video_start=5&audio=ZnHmskwqCCQ&audio_start=0

They've also released some add ons, including one with Battlements based on the size of the tier, and a 'turn the grand citadel towers into freestanding towers' add on.

One of the things I like about these campaigns is that DF will not only take suggestions/critique, but actively seek suggestions out to improve what people get for their contributions. Obvoiusly between a couple thousand people they can't account for *everything*, but they do try.

wow, 10 hours. Looks great, but I'd be really scared I'd knock half of it over in the middle of a game. How well do the pieces stick together?

The castle looks great, but I think what really ties it together are the roads and houses. One thing I always disliked in wargames is having road or river pieces that are higher than the ground next to it. Always feels like it should be the other way around.

The video they have for building walls show that the magnets and 'grips' on the pieces should make them pretty sturdy. The City stuff has pegs to fit together, and the caverns/dungeon tiles in my collection have enough heft to be pretty resistant to inadvertent moves.

Also, to give the table enough heft to really make your opponent feel it when you kirby-rage-flip the table.

$20 Add-on pledge level (no stretch goals) added.

Three new add-on packs: Stone Bridge, Mountain Pack, Mountain Floor

I don't think the cliff stuff will be what gets my add-on money, but some of those pieces would look so good with my existing Caverns tiles, I'm tempted all the same.

The newest video shows all sorts of "wicked" bits.

I dropped from a Tower to a Ramparts, and even that ($260 US, so about half a million Canadian..) might be pushing my budget, but I remain anxious to see what add ons show up. I've always aimed to get at least the minimum that picks up stretch goals, but with those looking awfully anemic this year, I might just snag my tote and an add on or two, especially if something fancy with LEDs lands again.

I could see using a Ramparts with my existing pieces to make a somewhat ramshackle castle facing, or a Helms Deep style front with caverns bits, but 30'ish pieces for $350 Canadian including shipping is a bit hard to justify right now, even accepting that in size and complexity (magnets everywhere!) these are vastly more complicated pieces than KS1 and 2's "floor piece, wall piece, corner piece".

Which isn't to reneg on my earlier statements of support, merely to recognize my earlier statements of financial reality as possibly coming home to roost.

Guess we'll find out in the next two weeks or so.

I'm a supporter, but I find their weird secrecy totally baffling. Just let us know what's coming - show us the add-on packs. Why wait to reach the totally arbitrary figure of 900k before revealing the tower add-on, which I wager is what a lot of people are waiting for? The uncertainty around the mechanics of all of this is putting people off - there's a lot of discussion in the comments about how exactly you combine towers and castles and what pieces you'll need. And that's totally valid - the value of this system comes from it's modularity, which at the moment seems a bit limited.

And I hate to say it, but yeah, the free stretch goals are pretty damn uninspiring this time around.

And the fact that there are "stretch goal" slots being taken up by add ons that they're going to reveal anyway... Is maddening. I get that it's expensive, I get that the molds for the big pieces are are expensive...

But they're making a killing on this. It's frustrating that those of us who are backing early (ie, doing the KS) aren't really getting that great of a deal. A waving flag? Really? That's what you're putting up as your first stretch goal and it took you 100K to get there?

Uninspiring to say the least.

The slow release of stretch goals is often because they leave themselves the option to swap things around, introduce new sculpts to meet community requests, etc.

That said, I agree about the paid add ons, but I think that's in part because there are no guarantees a given add on will pay itself off (new pieces that is, obviously ones made of existing pieces shouldn't have that issue), so advertising them all runs the risk of not actually pulling the funds to justify all those unique pieces.

As for 'making a killing', they've said a few times that they're on thin margins for this campaign. And given how many campaigns have gotten into trouble not having enough contingency cash baked in, especially once KS/Amazon take their cut, I can believe it. I believe they said they spent something like $800k on molds alone for KS3, so whatever cash they're bringing in, it doesn't seem likely it's going to escorts and blow.

But I do agree that some of the SG's haven't felt particularly inspiring either. Even knowing that they've stated that the size/weight/complexity of the Castle system means they won't be able to massively build out Tiers like they did in KS1 and 2, it is hard to look at a $260 Ramparts (with shipping) and see a handful of mini bits added. Even if that's solidly in their business model, the optics have a bit of disconnect.

Yeah I found myself wondering that last campaign, who these are really aimed at... they've clearly gotten folks to buy in to the ecosystem, and I think there's a lot of momentum from that, but on its own I can't really see the value of this addition.

 Forar wrote:

...
As for 'making a killing', they've said a few times that they're on thin margins for this campaign.
...

I've heard this too, and I just find it hard to believe. I'm sure their molds are expensive. They had a $100,000 funding goal. But to have exceeded that by 800%, and to claim their margins are "thin", that just doesn't add up.

I'm paying $500 for a cool castle (adding the ramparts/crenellations) and I'm excited about that, but I just find it quite a stretch to believe that sum for a nice (albeit not too big) castle alongside 1200+ other folks who are mostly handing over more money than me is returning them thin margins.

I don't begrudge them making a good profit from this. It's great to see these types of toys get made, and I'm happy to pay a premium for good quality stuff especially since it shows a demand, and DF will continue to make their excellent stuff. It's just a bit disheartening to see the project so lean on stretch goals...

 Forar wrote:

As for 'making a killing', they've said a few times that they're on thin margins for this campaign. And given how many campaigns have gotten into trouble not having enough contingency cash baked in, especially once KS/Amazon take their cut, I can believe it. I believe they said they spent something like $800k on molds alone for KS3, so whatever cash they're bringing in, it doesn't seem likely it's going to escorts and blow.

Then maybe they should have run their 3rd and 4th campaigns like their 1st and 2nd, with a focus on value through getting lots of the same modular pieces, rather than tons of oddball pieces with niche uses.

 pancakeonions wrote:
I've heard this too, and I just find it hard to believe. I'm sure their molds are expensive. They had a $100,000 funding goal. But to have exceeded that by 800%, and to claim their margins are "thin", that just doesn't add up.

That's what they've said. I choose to believe them on it. Maybe that 100k was just a lowball (as campaigns sometimes do), maybe they actually could've done the starting pieces, materials and shipping on that, we'll probably never know for sure.

Not to belabor the point, it's reasonable to assume in this day and age of Kickstarters that not everything is exactly what it seems (even for campaigns I support), but considering they (said they) spent nearly a million on molds alone last time, and this time we're looking at maybe 100 unique pieces (some of them bigger than anything seen before, and with a new material in the mix), I doubt they're pulling in half in profit or something like that. And with what they've promised and still hovering around 860k, it wouldn't surprise me if the margins were indeed slim, at least until they start pushing the much higher sums the previous campaigns have been on. Even arrow barrels and mini-steps add up when cutting steel, or so is my (very basic) understanding of these things. If nothing else, the ever smaller backer count (we'll see where this one ends, but it has definitely been a trend) might mean they're not getting nearly the economy of scale savings they might've had previously (which is their choice, but still).

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Then maybe they should have run their 3rd and 4th campaigns like their 1st and 2nd, with a focus on value through getting lots of the same modular pieces, rather than tons of oddball pieces with niche uses.

I'd be onboard with that, but they'll do what they want to do, and what they think is right for their business. Much as I might be disappointed in the shift, that doesn't make it wrong, just not for me. I'm not a business professional, or in the mini terrain industry, maybe there are aspects that make it more reasonable to do it as they are, or reasons that a campaign in the style of 1 or 2 wouldn't quite cut it. I mean, metal and magnets embedded in pieces are presumably much more resource/money intensive per piece than popping out a bunch of Corner A and Floor Tile C. My attitude is that they can make it as appealing as they want/can afford to, and I'll pitch in what I can justify based on their offerings.

Right now, it's maybe 1/3 of what I popped in for KS3, but part of that is the exchange rate being utter garbage (and neither they nor I can control that).

If we were around parity like we were a few years ago, it might not be nearly as big a deal, but that $260 Ramparts becomes ~$340, for a foot and a half of wall that I might stretch out to around 3 feet if I buffed it out with what I already have. As someone trying to be financially responsible, that's a tough sell.

Edit: apologies if I seem to be repeating myself, I can occasionally get lost in the minutia of context and forget that people might be tired of hearing the particulars noted ad nauseum.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Then maybe they should have run their 3rd and 4th campaigns like their 1st and 2nd, with a focus on value through getting lots of the same modular pieces, rather than tons of oddball pieces with niche uses.

Yeah, that. I guess their regular custoers can come up with hundreds of dollars for various different sets of pieces, but I just give up. If they offer fewer pieces, they'd amortize the costs of the molds better, and reduce the price per piece for everyone while making more profit. The business model they have now is to fund for as many molds as possible, and pass the costs to the backers. I *do* know that their more expensive resin pieces keep selling out, so I'm guessing DF *does* know how much per piece their customers will pay for, and prices accordingly during their KS. And, of course, DF has to lead the pack to get the pent-up demand for such pieces.

A good result, though, is that other companies are selling game tiles. I'm also very happy with my Frontline dungeon game tiles and Acheson Creaion's wooden floor game tiles.

Two new mountain add-ons: a mega-pack (with an earth elemental) and an elevation pack (mostly in case you missed out on cavern elevations from KS2).

I DID skip the elevations in KS2, which I later regretted.

On the DF Webstore, the KS2 Pedestal pack is 15 2x2 blocks for $50 (unpainted) or $70 (painted).

So for an extra $7/$10 you replace 5 2x2s with 10 2x1s. Same volume, more flexibility. Considering the KS price includes shipping, this pack makes decent sense for people that want elevations and don't have them already.

Still, certainly no kind of bargain.

Have they shown what you can build with the mega pack anywhere yet?

The elevation packs are useful. It's cheaper and easier to use foam core or gatorfoam for the bulk of your height and stacking needs, but then you still need frontage to hide the foam, depending on what you're building.

(For comparison, if anyone cares, the elevations pack in caverns during the kickstarter was $45/60.)

Looking back at that kickstarter page (here) is really something. There is an economy of sculpts to address a variety of options. I always thought this should be the model. And then maybe have one KS to do a variety of add-ons to the previous handful of KSers. What do I know.

Yea, I'm thinking I'll have to go look for 2" x 2" grey wooden (or something) blocks for elevations. I could probably throw something together myself with a saw, a 2x4, and some paint.

But then I'd have to actually go out and do it... Hmmm

Yeah, I was looking around a bit and found this site: http://www.craftparts.com/blocks-squares-wooden-blocks-cubes-wooden-c-209_212.html

Might be worth picking up a bag of 2"x2" blocks if you plan on getting nuts with elevations.

I'm waiting for this KS to show all it's cards before making any moves though.

I'll start putting these in spoiler tags so it's easier to scroll through the thread.

Now at $925k ish. Average Pledge Per Backer: $759 (yikes)

Latest update is 6" Large Fortified Towers (how is this distinguished from the regular tower? It looks like this is an add-on to add a few floors to the tower), Batter Base to the tower, 12"-long walls, a straight wall pack (with inside walls), and a corner wall pack (with inside walls).

4" towers coming later today, according to the comment section.

Note: DF KSers are so add-on intensive now, sometimes the only way to look at them is the add-on page. Add-on sets are listed here: http://www.dwarvenforge.com/kickstarter-4-add-on-sets/.

New round of add-ons.
* Small tower - palace
* Small tower - fortified
* Large tower - palace
* Ramparts double thick wall pack
* Castle double thick wall pack
* Citadel double thick wall pack
* Long inside walls

1.2m now.
$800+ per backer (!)
32 different add-on packs.

The latest ones are crenellation packs. (I'm just adding one pic below. There are just too many add-on packs. See them all here.) There are packs for large round crennellations, small round, straight, etc.


Motorized drawbridge is next at 1.025m

The lit and motorized drawbridge looks nice. Not sure how much I'd use the latter feature, but adding in some magnets I can think of a few fun things to do with it for various games. Though as a paid add-on, I'll probably skip the motor. Still keeping my fingers crossed for some amazing LED stuff, as the lighting effects are a big hit with my group.

It'll be interesting to see how this one ends, and does make me glad it's their shortest campaign yet. Imagine if we had 2 weeks left rather than just 1.

They added one-click pledges for a small castle and a big one:

Also one for a pair of towers joined with a bridge, and another much smaller one for a pre-built tower/hut thing.

None of them come with stretch goals, but do have an assortment of odds and ends that (imo) make up for it.

Wavering between a Rampart and the mini hut. They still need to reveal the LED add on kits (not just the themed runic/necromantic decoration ones) which will probably be the last bit of info I need to sway my decisions towards something resembling their final point.

The prices...wow!

I wonder how many of those full kits they'll sell?

You can go look at the number of backers for that pledge level and get a pretty good idea. Or wait until Wednesday night for a more accurate number. But however many they sell in the PM and after is anyone's guess.

There are already 39 backers for the full painted Royal Stronghold tier, and I'm sure someone willing to pay that much probably has other tiers and/or a pile of add ons as well.

From reading the comments across 4 campaigns, DF's campaigns have (as discussed earlier) definitely undergone a shift from "get tiles in the hands of everyone" to a more Boutique/Deluxe/Luxury experience. Backers will talk of spending $3-4k+ on a campaign. Some of them seem to either be retired or doing quite well for themselves, or perhaps this annual event has become their one major hobby expenditure of the year.

I'm only half joking when I say that at this rate it'll only be a few more campaigns before they're only getting a couple hundred backers, but those backers are contributing 10k apiece.

Suspended Parapets:


Battlement packs for straights, corners, and towers (not shown)


Balconies (large tower balcony shown here, but there are 3 different ones because...you know...DF has gone from 3 core pieces per set to everything-is-a-special-piece)


Tower bridge (which can integrate with the balconies above)


28mm Castle Defenders


There are so many different add-ons, no forum update can give you the complete picture. DF has a page of updates here.

Other news: a Wicked Alleys set coming either during the KS4 pledge manager or sometime next year. (This is ridiculous. I wish DF would just focus.)

I leave this here without further comment:
According to Kicktraq:
KS4 Average Pledge Per Backer: $946 from 1351 backers (~48 hours to go)
KS3 Cities: $868 from 2718 backers
KS2 Caverns: 542 from 3949 backers
KS1 Dungeons: 354 from 5396 backers

Like DF or not, you have to admit that model castle is gorgeous.

They've also finally added the LED packs! There's a set of pillars with lanterns, and a floor tile with swappable pieces to light up (coals, a fountain, etc) that look pretty awesome, and I think will go nicely on my table for a variety of games.

We're also seeing a bunch of new stretch goals pop up and get cleared now that the funding is flowing freely again.

Pics of the LED sets:

It does look great all put together. I wish it could be in my price range :(

Currently SIXTY EIGHT add on packs. And rumors of more to come...

Wow. That's more add on packs than all other KS projects I've backed combined...

From what I'm reading, it seems they won't be adding any more add ons during the campaign (26 hours that are left of it), but that some might come up during the Pledge Manager. Some things that have been teased like Ruins and other things people are clamouring for.

But for now it looks like stretch goals will be pieces added to the tiers that qualify for them.

Which brings me to another thing; they may be sorting out the add ons as a purchase in the Pledge Manager, so the pre-built tier folks have an option to get some if they want without buying entire tiers just to qualify alongside with their giant pre-designed castle or whatever.

Basically they're trying to appease thousands of voices and I wish them luck at it.

They confirmed: People will be able to change their pledges (and add funds) through the end of the PM period.

They cracked 1.5 Million, and still going.

Alleys will be released in the pledge manager.
T's, Dead Ends and 4 ways

...and the KS has officially eclipsed $1,000 per backer. I am priced out of this one. Wow.

1.68m with 113 minutes to go. 1.7 will obviously go by unless something tragic happens (a bunch of pledges are just troll 10k's to remove at the end, etc), 1.8 might even be in reach (perhaps even higher, but I don't think there'll be hundreds of backers joining in the last few hours, there's been plenty of time to gak or get off the pot as it is).

Guess we'll see in two hours where things land.

$1000 per backer average?!?

WOW!

Just...wow!

More stretch goals unlocked: wood shutters, gargoyle.

At 1.75m an LED Orb thing.

Hovering around 1.775m with 17 minutes to go.

At 1.85m there's a random grab bag accessory added to people's pledges, but 75k in a quarter of an hour isn't seeming likely.

Wraps up at 1,688 backers for $1.78m.

Wow.. great haul for them. So I guess this is more for the RPG crowd in general? Do role players have more money cuz they don't spend it all on GW like we do?

A look at the comments seems to say it's a lot of RPGers. Some people were dropping $ approaching the price of a decent used car. That's a lot of discretionary income for RPG terrain. Good for them I guess.

I would imagine in a lot of those cases it's probably a whole gaming group pitching in for something they'll all share.

I think there's some of that, but there's a lot of "I'm getting this for me and my kids and it'll last forever." (This is just my impression.)

That's me... I'm getting it as a silly playset for my boys (they're young) and then it'll become the RPG awesome playset it's meant to be when they're older!

Also, they said they would add the crenellations from KS3 to the pledge manager. None of the current crenellations are interesting to me (too narrow) and I didn't add any from KS3 to my pledge.

This stuff is great for Mordheim, Frostgrave, and Bolt Action.
Nothing like a firefight in a european village, or a skirmish through the dungeons.

Yeah, I intend to use my city builder stuff for skirmish terrain, anachronisms be damned. There are low tech planets that need fighting over too!

A castle would be a great centerpiece/objective, but yeah - it's pricey as hell. The Castle pledge, which makes a smallish castle, is $410 USD. If you want crenelations, and you need crenelations or it just looks silly, that's another $88. If you want the inside walls, which you might as well, another $86. So you're looking at $584 for a pretty basic pledge (that's all painted of course, but I learned my lesson getting unpainted in their first kickstarter).

Of course, what I'd REALLY like is a castle with a tower attached. That's another $260 for the tower, and $49 for the extra bits you need to attach it seamlessly to your castle.

You want your castle to have a drawbridge, don't you? That's a showstopper when you pull it out on the table. 77 for manual, 89 for motorized.

Those mountains sure do look nice. $385 for the megapack.

And then there is all sorts of cool extra stuff - a few small towers, a parapet pack, you have some really nice flair you're adding to your castle!

Good thing too, because you're going to need to live in it by the end.

At least the stretch goals filled in a bit by the end, although it's all purely ornamental.

I'm not complaining about the prices, really - this is just what this stuff costs, and obviously people want it. Hell, I want it. I just need to stay rooted in reality.

Teaser pic for KS5 :

While I do like the raw diversity of options we've been getting in these campaigns, I do hope they step back a little towards affordability. 3 unpainted sets of Dungeons from KS1 brought a fairly sizable footprint of terrain at a reasonable cost, with later campaigns producing more elaborate pieces at a higher price or smaller quantity for similar prices.

Not that I'm expecting a barnstormer, but a couple square feet of terrain at the base tier would be nice.

They haven't announced when the next campaign will be, aside from it launching after KS4 delivers. I'll definitely be back for #5, but if it's another super expensive one I might just be in for an add on or two (the LED elements they've been working on are a huge hit at my table).

I really liked what they were doing with the town streets .. I'd love to see them do something more modern like asphalt and sidewalks and stuff. But I think fantasy is their thing...

I think this deserves its own thread once there's a little more info out about it! If anyone is willing to keep such a thread updated, feel free to make a new one here in the News & Rumors section, and PM me and I'll move this one out

Please link to it here if you do create a new thread, too!

Found some more info about KS 5, so here's a new thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/712060.page#9096654