How do you guys feel about this?

Personally it makes me feel nervous! I've drifted away from Fantasy in the last few years but I still have a lot of affection for the IP, especially the Empire, Bretonia and Beastmen. I've got enough GW Orcs and Goblins and Dwarves to last me forever, but now I feel like I need to "keep an eye on" what GW are doing so I don't suddenly realise that a kit that had always been on my "someday, I'll pick that up" list doesn't just vanish!

I also think it's always a jerk move to get rid of a faction wholesale with no warning, though to an extent it's inevitable with the number of factions GW accumulates over the years. Still, room for what is it, six distinct varieties of Space Marine, but no room for Egyptian themed undead? *shakes head*

I didn't really imagine this could happen when AoS rolled around, but I guess keeping the inventory there when it was selling poorly does come with a cost. Sad for the TK players, but hey, at least your collections probably just increased in resale value long term?

Somewhat sad to see the product will not be kept, but glad there is a "last chance to buy" so I am not completely caught out of surprise if I want to get something still.

Seeing the Sepulcher Stalkers, Tomb Guard, and the Tomb Sphinx on there is a bit troubling. All excellent kits that are relatively new. Kind of a shame.

Not a Tomb King player but I think it's incredibly sad that they're going away. Tomb Kings are a great range and are still of use to players in other fantasy games even if GW no longer wish to support them in their own games. I wish they could have at least stayed as a web only special order range.

I do agree that I now feel the need to keep watch in case anything happens to my armies although luckily I think I played some of the more popular armies.

Always thought they looked great and I like the new plastic kits, so it's a shame. Like them a lot more than the VC style. But they just didn't sell enough I suppose, and they need to cut the SKU bloat. Somehow though the Razorgor, square metal Rat Swarm and Beast of Nurgle live to fight another day.

The reason they didn't sell well (IMHO) was the fact that their core plastic kits date back to the initial Tomb Kings release in 2002.

it also didnt hurt that the army is pitiful.

The great purge seems to be a big factor in the AOS implementation, so I would expect it to continue.

There is always E-bay. GW charges too much anyway.

It makes me very, very worried.

The original rumors (that turned out to be largely true) stated that the model range would be purged.

I worry for things like Dark Elves, which we haven't really seen show up in the fluff at all beyond Malerion (or whatever his new name is).

I'd be much more worried about bretts, as they're likely on the chopping block already.

Dark Elves have a large number of relatively new plastic kits. I don't see them going anywhere.

Tomb Kings got a few good new kits in 8th ed too and they are gone...

At this point I'm considering nothing safe.

anything non-aos-y is likely to get the boot, if it cant be readily rehashed and made copyrightable its doomed...empire, brets, dark elves, tomb kings, yeah hosed, normal dwarves likely dead on arrival too.

Tomb Kings were too Egypt, too The Mummy for GW to pretend they played any role in the origin of the concept. Bretonnians will be purged for this reason as well.

The rest of the races seem safer- not generally that original, but also not direct ports from other media. I imagine the purge will continue to remove old kits from a lot of factions until everything is parsed down to the best-selling parts of every range. From there, the game can expand again.

 thekingofkings wrote:
anything non-aos-y is likely to get the boot, if it cant be readily rehashed and made copyrightable its doomed...empire, brets, dark elves, tomb kings, yeah hosed, normal dwarves likely dead on arrival too.

Copyrightable isn't the cause of this. Vampires, skeletons, armored skeletons, zombies, ghosts, bats, corpse wagons, necromancers, undead wolves, undead dragons, ghouls - practically none of the undead line apart from maybe (maybe) the stuff in the deathlords category plus perhaps the engine/throne & maybe, if we're stretching, the terrogheist can be at all protected from 3rd party knockoffs via IP. The new names are generally more IPable, sure, but tomb kings could have been given new names just as easily. Giving something a new name doesn't cost anything. And the Ghoul kings went from the more protectable 'Strigoi' to the less protectable 'abhorrant'. The vamp counts line in general is super generic, and there are in fact far more third party alternatives for generic gothic fantasy undead a la VCs than there ever were for specifically egyptian themed undead like TK.

No, copyrights aren't the reason for this. Sales are. Sales and a product line aesthetically out of step with the more popular vamps line. But mostly sales.

The fact that the very recent Dragon Slayer dwarf doesn't fit in with the Fyrelsayery dwarves and is under a different section of the webstore (with the other old dwarves) isn't encouraging either. Doesn't look like they are mixing the two lines but rather the old WHFB models are just there are placeholders until they are all replaced or removed.

Yes, I have thought about the Dragon Slayer and what his fate might be. It is a great model so I would likely pick one up when it's added to LCTB.

My main concern is the entire Order grand alliance being culled in one go - there are vast swathes of the Empire range I would like to add to my collection as well as many dwarf and elf kits. I would also like some brets as 'alternative' human models to go with my empire army.

Hopefully they will at least do it in drips and drapes so I don't have to break the bank!

I am quite shocked and angry, because I loved the aesthetic and theme of the Tomb kings, and my friend has begun to collect Tomb Kings and explaining this to him is going to be difficult. Also wanted a lot of models from the range and trawling through ebay is going to be a nightmare.

It's disappointing. I'm glad a few weeks ago when someone was selling a TK army that I didn't pick it up.

At this point I feel like just writing off my half finished WHFB armies as a loss because I'm not keen on panic buying.

Panic buying would be the worst response to this I think.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Panic buying would be the worst response to this I think.

Depends how much you want to complete your existing armies I suppose.

True, but it just feels to me like it is going to lead to a lot of buyers remorse.

I think a lot of the kits will sell just so people can slap a "OOP BNIB" tag on it and make a quick buck on eBay for higher than retail value.

 Bottle wrote:

My main concern is the entire Order grand alliance being culled in one go - there are vast swathes of the Empire range I would like to add to my collection as well as many dwarf and elf kits.

Why so concerned? Remember, this is one of the strengths of AoS - models may disappear from retail but the Warscrolls will always be valid and always useable. You may not be able to grab everything you want right now, but there is always eBay and, chances are, you'll get them for a lot less than retail, even a few years down the road...

 jonolikespie wrote:
True, but it just feels to me like it is going to lead to a lot of buyers remorse.

I think at this point if you have a half complete WHFB army you probably already have buyers remorse

 Stormonu wrote:
There is always E-bay. GW charges too much anyway.

GW doesn't charge to much. People will pay what they feel is worth it. Problem is, GW makes sure their products are not worth it for a number of reasons. A lot of people will not buy on eBay, no matter how cheap it is because it's not worth to fix them up. So it doesn't come down to price but to worth.

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

My main concern is the entire Order grand alliance being culled in one go - there are vast swathes of the Empire range I would like to add to my collection as well as many dwarf and elf kits.

Why so concerned? Remember, this is one of the strengths of AoS - models may disappear from retail but the Warscrolls will always be valid and always useable. You may not be able to grab everything you want right now, but there is always eBay and, chances are, you'll get them for a lot less than retail, even a few years down the road...

I'm not overly concerned about the warscrolls (although a minor niggle is to how long comps are going to provide points for OOP models), the main reason is for not being able to pick up stuff before it's gone. In my experience stuff on sprue goes for a lot on eBay. The only good deal I have had in recent times is getting the IoB Skaven on sprue for £23. My views may be warped by buying Necromunda (where you will now pay £5-10 per model) - I don't think we'll see BNIB OOP kits go for less than current GW retail. If I was selling that would be where I would start the bidding at.

Yeah, Necromunda will screw your view of eBay prices I would not be worried about prices and availability for a couple of years (and you are likely to see some great bargains over the next few months). As for comps, if there is demand, they'll keep these models in - they have no reason not to...

Honestly this is the best thing that could happen to TK players. eBay is the better option than buying directly from GW. No one gouges prices for things unless they're super old or super rare. I get all my stuff for 33-50% off retail price when I find a good lot. Sure sometimes you have to hunt, or do a little restoration where you strip paint. But it's worth it.

I stopped playing between the start of fifth and the launch of AoS so TK don't have the same sort of place in my heart as they will for many but I agree that it is a shame. I really like the aesthetics of the Egyptian undead force.

I suspect GW will see a decent spike in purchases of these models that presumably are fairly poor sellers though.

Well I'm glad I didn't put any extra effort into my TKs once AoS was dropped upon us... so much time that I thankfully haven't really wasted.

It'll be a shame though... I really like a lot of the models (even the almost-decade-and-a-half-old derpy skeles).

 Pojko wrote:
Honestly this is the best thing that could happen to TK players. eBay is the better option than buying directly from GW. No one gouges prices for things unless they're super old or super rare. I get all my stuff for 33-50% off retail price when I find a good lot. Sure sometimes you have to hunt, or do a little restoration where you strip paint. But it's worth it.

I'm not really following how it's the best thing to happen to TK players? TK players have been able to buy off ebay since forever, how is GW no longer producing them a benefit there? At best things will go on as normal, maybe a few TK players will quit and put their armies up on ebay, at worst ebay prices will jump.

As far as I can see, if you have a TK army finished or within reach of finished, you can carry on playing legacy WHFB, or play the legacy war scroll army in AoS, or swap to Kings of War or another fantasy game like HOTT.

It certainly isn't the end of everything, but if you liked GW games and hoped to continue playing a role in them and in their fluff, you are screwed.

Maybe because they can sell their armies off for a bit more if the models aren't available otherwise? I don't know, I'm not really folowing that one either.

I still haven't decided if I'm going to pick up any last chance tomb kings for my Death army or not. I mean, I had some plans, but I wasn't going to buy any more until I had painted at least a solid chunk of what I already have, and I don't like being rushed. I'd be a bit disappointed if waiting meant I couldn't get any of the stuff I wanted (a couple special characters, ushabti, tomb guard, chariots, the catapult), but... oh well?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As far as I can see, if you have a TK army finished or within reach of finished...

Because of the nature of WHFB you're always going to have a lot of people who aren't "finished" with their armies. People who might have been planning 2000, 3000, 4000pt armies but only got as far as 500, 1000, 1500pts. Still massive investments but a long way off finished.

That's largely why GW killing off an army is such a frustrating thing. Sure, the models you had still exist, but what do you do now? Invest more money in to a defunct range of miniatures for a defunct rules system trying to scrounge up the scraps before they go OOP, or just write the whole thing off as a loss? Both prospects suck pretty bad IMO.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
That's largely why GW killing off an army is such a frustrating thing. Sure, the models you had still exist, but what do you do now? Invest more money in to a defunct range of miniatures for a defunct rules system trying to scrounge up the scraps before they go OOP, or just write the whole thing off as a loss? Both prospects suck pretty bad IMO.

That's what happened to me with Warmaster and Battlefleet Gothic. It sucks to be Tomb Kings player.

I don't really see how whole army going oop is positive in any way.

Well BOO - I've always liked the models, though I didn't pick this army

I can see ebay will be booming tho sigh

It may have been said already: the same sources that predicted the TK removal are now predicting that Brettonians are going to be squatted too

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Bottle wrote:

My main concern is the entire Order grand alliance being culled in one go - there are vast swathes of the Empire range I would like to add to my collection as well as many dwarf and elf kits.

Why so concerned? Remember, this is one of the strengths of AoS - models may disappear from retail but the Warscrolls will always be valid and always useable. You may not be able to grab everything you want right now, but there is always eBay and, chances are, you'll get them for a lot less than retail, even a few years down the road...

Until they remove the rules as well. The warscroll compendium is in the Last Chance section, too.

I agree with what others have said. The TK are way too clearly Egyptian for AoS. Even GW know they can't claim them as a wholly original concept, so they have to go. I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen more of this already. Somehow, I doubt that the "aelfs" will remain three distinct factions when their turn for renewal comes up.

I would put money on, in a year's time or so, a single-army "Undead" splat release that will resemble the old, pre-Vampire Counts Undead army, containing both TK and VC units, led by Nagash.

Many of the new kits will be suspiciously familiar.

At least there is a wealth of minis out there as good or better (if often slightly smaller) than the GW bretonnia line, and cheaper as well. A lot of it in plastic even. Perry, Gripping Beast and Fireforge to name a few.

Egyptian themed undead are much harder to find and then usually in metal and in a retro-style.

 Guildsman wrote:
I agree with what others have said. The TK are way too clearly Egyptian for AoS. Even GW know they can't claim them as a wholly original concept, so they have to go.

This is about sales, not copyright. Remember, the vamp counts line is even less protectable than the TK line, being even more generic. There are now and have always been far more 3rd party alternatives to anything in the vamp count range than there are for tomb kings stuff. Mantic has an entire substitute army line for vamps, even.

You say copyright isn't a thing, but Crom the Conqueror, Krell and Wulfrik have all been removed. The models are still sold under the new name 'exalted hero of chaos'. GW is scrubbing all fluff references to popular culture and stuft that isn't protectable. Sales will also be a factor as to why it was TK and not VK that got squatted. Had it been the reverse it would have been the VK being removed. They want undead of some type, they just ran with the popular line

No, they're scrubbing old finecast special characters that aren't part of the AoS fluff. The exact same thing happened to Vlad, Isabella, Konrad, Kemmler, and Krell - all perfectly protected IP, all replaced by generic 'vampire lord' and 'necromancer' and 'wight king' unit entries, none of which can be protected by copyright or trademark at all.

Same with the other heroes. 'Wulfric' is more protectable than 'exalted hero of chaos'. Just... like, it was a fine hypothesis and all, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pojko wrote:
Honestly this is the best thing that could happen to TK players. eBay is the better option than buying directly from GW. No one gouges prices for things unless they're super old or super rare. I get all my stuff for 33-50% off retail price when I find a good lot. Sure sometimes you have to hunt, or do a little restoration where you strip paint. But it's worth it.

I'm not really following how it's the best thing to happen to TK players? TK players have been able to buy off ebay since forever, how is GW no longer producing them a benefit there? At best things will go on as normal, maybe a few TK players will quit and put their armies up on ebay, at worst ebay prices will jump.

It's the best thing to happen from a certain point of view I suppose.

Now people who would have paid obscene retail prices will be forced to pay less. It's always baffled me why so many people are willing to buy directly from GW when there are alternatives even outside of eBay. Convinience? Familiarity? A misplaced sense of loyalty to a local GW shop that just wants your money and will not let you play games in the store?

All I know is that in the last 12 months I've snagged insane deals on Undead and Chaos Warrior lots at at least 50% off what I'd pay GW. Yes some need dips in a Simple Green or nail polish remover bath. But to accumulate 6,600 points of Vampire Counts for about $250 is worth it to me.

Bretonnians are next up on the chopping block so get the models while they are still available. I just bought the last few bretonnian models I needed to finish my army this week, and I suggest you all do the same.

From my understanding Beastmen are safe because they have been rolled into Chaos.

 Pojko wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pojko wrote:
Honestly this is the best thing that could happen to TK players. eBay is the better option than buying directly from GW. No one gouges prices for things unless they're super old or super rare. I get all my stuff for 33-50% off retail price when I find a good lot. Sure sometimes you have to hunt, or do a little restoration where you strip paint. But it's worth it.

I'm not really following how it's the best thing to happen to TK players? TK players have been able to buy off ebay since forever, how is GW no longer producing them a benefit there? At best things will go on as normal, maybe a few TK players will quit and put their armies up on ebay, at worst ebay prices will jump.

It's the best thing to happen from a certain point of view I suppose.

Now people who would have paid obscene retail prices will be forced to pay less. It's always baffled me why so many people are willing to buy directly from GW when there are alternatives even outside of eBay. Convinience? Familiarity? A misplaced sense of loyalty to a local GW shop that just wants your money and will not let you play games in the store?

All I know is that in the last 12 months I've snagged insane deals on Undead and Chaos Warrior lots at at least 50% off what I'd pay GW. Yes some need dips in a Simple Green or nail polish remover bath. But to accumulate 6,600 points of Vampire Counts for about $250 is worth it to me.

I still don't see the positive here.... GW canning TK isn't going to improve the ebay situation except maybe initially as people dump their armies then over time it's slowly going to get harder and harder to find things on ebay as well.

If you think it's good because now everyone is forced to use ebay, err, it's not. Where do you think all the cheap ebay armies came from? It was people buying full price armies from GW first

Personally I've never been a big fan of ebay because my hobby time is more valuable to me than my hobby money, I'm not going to hang out waiting for something to come up on ebay when I can just buy it new, nor am I a fan of stripping models. The barrier to me putting together a 6000pt army has never been the price, it's always been the time. Of course that's just me, I don't expect others to agree.... but either way I don't think having people forced in to buying OOP models on ebay is in any way a good thing for TK players, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Bretonnians are next up on the chopping block so get the models while they are still available. I just bought the last few bretonnian models I needed to finish my army this week, and I suggest you all do the same.

From my understanding Beastmen are safe because they have been rolled into Chaos.

I have a decent sized "half finished" Bretonnian army, at this point I'm just going to chalk them up as a loss I think.

weird, I was told on good authority in the background thread that all armies would continue to be supported in the rules and fluff.

I doubt TK will get an update again, why would they make updated warscrolls for a discontinued army? sure, you can use the models, assuming your club allows proxies.

I'm curious how many armies at this point are getting the full axe like TK. I'd wager bretts and empire are next.

Why would your club need to allow proxies? The TK scrolls still exist.

It's a little disappointing because Tomb Kings have such a unique look compared to other GW miniatures, and you would think there would be a place for them in the Mortal Realms.

Still, I can understand why GW is culling their line of miniatures. Age of Sigmar is developing its own aesthetic, and I think any product lines that don't fit that aesthetic are going to be discontinued to make room for new factions down the line.

 Malisteen wrote:
Why would your club need to allow proxies? The TK scrolls still exist.

The rules are discontinued too. You will no longer be able to download the PDF, and it will probably be dropped from the app.

I'm sure if you have a copy you can use them, but history says it's like using chaos dwarfs. The rules will eventually outpace the wars rolls.

Alas Poor Yorrick I knew Ye Well.

Granted it's not the first time it has been done to the Tomb Kings or other factions in WFB. The Chaos Dwarves and Dogs of War were still part of the setting and were mentioned but didn't have a standing army.

I think TK still fit into the AOS setting, they may not be Khermi TK but Shyish TK or Deathrattle Legions. So it is possible in the future we will see a TK army arise again or join the Death Alliance just with new names and looks.

 pox wrote:
weird, I was told on good authority in the background thread that all armies would continue to be supported in the rules and fluff.

I doubt TK will get an update again, why would they make updated warscrolls for a discontinued army? sure, you can use the models, assuming your club allows proxies.

I'm curious how many armies at this point are getting the full axe like TK. I'd wager bretts and empire are next.

Yeah, the assumptions I made in the fluff post is unfortunately wrong. I agree that Tomb King warscrolls will not get an update (but heck, GW does so many things that seem strange ). But since there is no official point systems, the current Tomb King warscrolls should be fine for games in Age of Sigamar until there is an AoS revision where the Tomb King warscrolls do not have enough information to allow them to be play with.

It's probably fairly easy to find skeletons and skellie horses and Egyptify them.

People ought to grab the war scrolls while they can, because those will vanish next.

 pox wrote:

 Malisteen wrote:
Why would your club need to allow proxies? The TK scrolls still exist.

The rules are discontinued too. You will no longer be able to download the PDF, and it will probably be dropped from the app.

Well, they link to the Tomb Kings PDF on the Grand Alliance: Death page on the webstore. No idea how long that will last.

When they told us Monday that TK and Bretonnia would go the way of the dodo, we were also told that the rules would not be removed from the site at all, as GW intend for them to be available at all time to the players who already own the miniatures.

So I think that whatever they are seeing in the "Last Chance to Buy" tab, people shouldn't worry too much.

I'm indifferent about it, because I don't play TK. Wonder how this will affect the rest of the game though.

With the demise of Specialist Games (previously), all rules for models not being sold were finally axed from GW's site. In codex updates, any rules that didn't have corresponding models were cut. The policy since then has been "if it doesn't have models, it doesn't get rules." The TK's and Bretonnians (who have already been noted to be on their way out on GW's Brussels FB page) will not have rules available in the future.

 jonolikespie wrote:


I worry for things like Dark Elves, which we haven't really seen show up in the fluff at all beyond Malerion (or whatever his new name is).

Dark Elves got the only 2 month faction update at least a decade (IIRC) that was full of new plastics just 2 years (so much infact the blatant favoratism compared to other faction in need of updates was what got me to quit WHFB). GW wouldn't go straight from that to dropping in such a short amount of time.

If I had any interesting in a Tomb Kings army I would download the rules now, just in case.

 Da Boss wrote:
How do you guys feel about this?

Personally it makes me feel nervous! I've drifted away from Fantasy in the last few years but I still have a lot of affection for the IP... but now I feel like I need to "keep an eye on" what GW are doing so I don't suddenly realise that a kit that had always been on my "someday, I'll pick that up" list doesn't just vanish!

I feel pretty much the same way.

Still, room for what is it, six distinct varieties of Space Marine, but no room for Egyptian themed undead? *shakes head*

Surely with no egyptian themed undead, players will instead flock to buy egyptian themed space marines?

Logical, y'see.

Sad for the TK players, but hey, at least your collections probably just increased in resale value long term?

Depends on how much demand there is, with both Warhammer and now the TK warscrolls picking up the 'unsupported' stigma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

coldgaming wrote:Somehow though the Razorgor, square metal Rat Swarm and Beast of Nurgle live to fight another day.

I never thought of the rat swarm. How does that fit with AoS's round bases?

thekingofkings wrote:it also didnt hurt that the army is pitiful.

Heh. Words right out of me mouf.

jonolikespie wrote:
I worry for things like Dark Elves, which we haven't really seen show up in the fluff at all beyond Malerion (or whatever his new name is).

Guildsman wrote:Somehow, I doubt that the "aelfs" will remain three distinct factions when their turn for renewal comes up.

I figured the current elves will be axed. Part of me is interested in seeing how the new aelfs turn out, and if they're in any way able to be shoved in an army with the older minis without too much glaring difference. But another part of me looks at the golden he-man and SnM releases of AoS so far, and becomes more and more discouraged.

I guess, unless I go splurge sometime soon (which I was never fond of doing with wargaming minis even in times of plenty, and I share AllSeeingSkink's liking for panic buying) those high and dark elf forces I started for skirmish games will have to stay for skirmish games.

Bottle wrote:Yes, I have thought about the Dragon Slayer and what his fate might be. It is a great model so I would likely pick one up when it's added to LCTB.

Why not sooner?

Davor wrote:GW doesn't charge to much. People will pay what they feel is worth it. Problem is, GW makes sure their products are not worth it for a number of reasons.

Ergo, GW charges too much.

Kilkrazy wrote:As far as I can see, if you have a TK army finished or within reach of finished, you can carry on playing legacy WHFB, or play the legacy war scroll army in AoS, or swap to Kings of War or another fantasy game like HOTT.

It certainly isn't the end of everything, but if you liked GW games and hoped to continue playing a role in them and in their fluff, you are screwed.

Well said that man.

Teurastaja wrote:
That's what happened to me with Warmaster and Battlefleet Gothic. It sucks to be Tomb Kings player.

I don't really see how whole army going oop is positive in any way.

And that one.

Wulfmar wrote:It may have been said already: the same sources that predicted the TK removal are now predicting that Brettonians are going to be squatted too

Perry HYW FTW.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Personally I've never been a big fan of ebay because my hobby time is more valuable to me than my hobby money, I'm not going to hang out waiting for something to come up on ebay when I can just buy it new, nor am I a fan of stripping models.... but either way I don't think having people forced in to buying OOP models on ebay is in any way a good thing for TK players, lol.

'Til recently I might've agreed with Pojko, but, yeah, this. Stripping paint (if it would even strip) to discover the thick geological layer of poly cement beneath it has made me a lot more wary of ebay castoffs. The start of my DE collection, a set of cold one knights, was so ruined I had to spend almost as much on bits sellers for replacement parts, and the total wasn't far off a new, discounted box.
And the newer DE plastics aren't too common on ebay either, for some reason, as second-hand or discounts. Even the Troll Trader doesn't have many marked-up handfuls of them.

I have a decent sized "half finished" Bretonnian army, at this point I'm just going to chalk them up as a loss I think.

I know there's a lot of leeriness and psychological (sometimes even physical) blocks on using GW armies with other, smaller games, and I don't know what your view or situation is; but I'd really recommend taking a look, or stowing your brets until you're ready and able to take a look. I haven't bought so many GW minis in ages, since I armed meself with some newer rulesets and looked at my lead pile for loose groupings and faction ideas. (And it's pretty ironic that trying to make use of my lead pile is making it grow even bigger) It even extended to a Bretonnian theme, and a box of pre-finecast metal questing knights on ebay. Those weren't discounted in any way, I can tell you...

Kilkrazy wrote:It's probably fairly easy to find skeletons and skellie horses and Egyptify them.

Is it?

With hindsight, I think that there are essentially two different games of AoS.

The first is the "transition" game. This includes nods to legacy models and rules, and stop-gap army rules to grandfather in all current armies.

The second will be the "real" AoS. This will be the game after all old models and armies are phased out, and what the new armies and factions are.

I'm sure that just like the "ravening hordes" list gave stop-gap rules to use chaos dwarfs and dogs of war, that you will be able to use all discontinued models/armies for quite a while. Eventually though they will drop all support for discontinued models.

Dogs of war and chaos dwarfs were largely useless by 7th, much less 8th edition. Which is why proxy will be the only way to play, by shoehorning in units you own to obvious counts-as.

A human knight is a human knight, I guess.

 pox wrote:

 Malisteen wrote:
Why would your club need to allow proxies? The TK scrolls still exist.

The rules are discontinued too. You will no longer be able to download the PDF, and it will probably be dropped from the app.

Bologna. It's being removed from the web store, not the site. That already happened to the chaos compendiums - they're no longer in the store. But they're all still there for download in the AoS rules section. Same with the lizardment one. And they're all still in the app, too, including all the lizardmen named characters who weren't in the seraphon book ages ago.

But all those still have models sold by GW.

The hellcannon doesn't, it's still in the app. Throgg doesn't, he's still in the app. The vampire lord on abyssal terror doesn't, it's still in the app.

These units might not be sold any more, and might not appear in the fluff going forward, but the rules aren't going anywhere for people who already have the models. And it's hard to imagine how much of a jerk someone would have to be to refuse to let you use the rules for models you bought and painted, just because those models aren't sold anymore.

Especially in a game as anti-competitive as this.

Ok fair enough.

Wow, and they sold out FAST.

Probably haven't seen a restock of many things in a LONG time :/

 Malisteen wrote:
... but the rules aren't going anywhere for people who already have the models....

Maybe, maybe not. Personally I'd strongly recommend downloading rules for armies that are getting the chop in case GW decides to cull them. GW have a long and illustrious history of culling rules which have no models., whether it's from their publications or from their website, they tend to be living on borrowed time.

Remember when GW said they would never Squat another army?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Remember when GW said they would never Squat another army?

GW themselves don't

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If I had any interesting in a Tomb Kings army I would download the rules now, just in case.

I already did, from Mantic

Man I can't believe I missed this. Everything I really wanted is already sold out too! I just wanted to get a Carrion, 3 Ushabti and maybe a handful of Tomb Guard to make a small TK Warband for AoS/D&D

I'm really going to have to stay on guard now....especially for the Empire.

Well, unlike some other guy saying you would have all the time in the world to grab what you want at decent prices...I saw it coming.

As soon as the main editor says it stops a range, you can be sure a lot of carrion eaters fly to feast on the corpse. Then selling the remains on other websites at higher prices, since they're not available anymore.

Things are going much faster than a few years ago. For those who missed the chance...well, I know how you feel.

Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

Just putting it out there but Empire of Dust exists for KoW

 krodarklorr wrote:
On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

You could keep it and have even more points of Empire of Dust for KoW.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

Just putting it out there but Empire of Dust exists for KoW

Eh, no thanks. I don't like to play things that are out of date, and I hate buying things second hand online. If Tomb Kings will no longer be supported, I have no reason to be interested in AoS, or even going back to 8th edition fantasy. I also don't really care for KoW.

 krodarklorr wrote:

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

.....Or Undying Dynasties for 9th Age

(Mind you I can see how discontinuing the whole model range would cause you to throw up your hands and say "to hell with this!")

Just putting it out there that KoW has offered support to TK players, so it might be worth giving the system a try before you do go and sell a whole army. Rules are free after all

 krodarklorr wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

Just putting it out there but Empire of Dust exists for KoW

Eh, no thanks. I don't like to play things that are out of date, and I hate buying things second hand online. If Tomb Kings will no longer be supported, I have no reason to be interested in AoS, or even going back to 8th edition fantasy. I also don't really care for KoW.

Try Hordes Of The Things. Your TK will fit right in.

Oh man, you turn your back for a second and already all the Ushabti on Ebay are gone and the ones that are left are almost 50$ (CAD) each.

Guess I can nix that warband idea.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

Just putting it out there but Empire of Dust exists for KoW

Eh, no thanks. I don't like to play things that are out of date, and I hate buying things second hand online. If Tomb Kings will no longer be supported, I have no reason to be interested in AoS, or even going back to 8th edition fantasy. I also don't really care for KoW.

Try Hordes Of The Things. Your TK will fit right in.

Does Hordes of the Things have any other players in any of the gaming groups he can regularly attend? How well he TK fit in will not mean anything if he cannot get any opponent to play with.

 sing your life wrote:

Does Hordes of the Things have any other players in any of the gaming groups he can regularly attend? How well he TK fit in will not mean anything if he cannot get any opponent to play with.

A whole lot of this right here.

Also, I noticed you quoted me in your sig. Whhhyyyyyyyy

He could recruit people. HoTT uses standard Ancients basing so nearly any existing army can be used. It's a bit sad if everyone sits around at home lamenting the fact that someone else hasn't already set up a game group for them to join.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
He could recruit people. HoTT uses standard Ancients basing so nearly any existing army can be used. It's a bit sad if everyone sits around at home lamenting the fact that someone else hasn't already set up a game group for them to join.

My gaming group already don't care to play AoS except for maybe 1 or 2 people. everyone already plays 40k, Malifaux, occasionally Warhamordes, ext. Personally I don't feel like trying to get more people to move to another game, when most of them have sold their AoS minis by now.

Sounds bad. Maybe some new people will join, or you might be able to find a new group, with luck.

Well it's a shame to see so many people being negatively affected by this.

Here's a guy who started selling off his Tomb Kings yesterday, likely because of this news. Most of the stuff is painted, but the deals are fantastic for those who don't mind pre-painted minis or a restoration job. Even offers free shipping to the US.

Currently has 16 listings, with most Buy It Now's at $25-35 for entire regiments of infantry, cavalry and chariots. How long will they remain?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/raymondsprague/m.html?item=252287620429&hash=item3abd83954d%3Ag%3ACmUAAOSw~OVWwSPX&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Sounds bad. Maybe some new people will join, or you might be able to find a new group, with luck.

Yeah, I understand the possibility is there. But my morale towards the situation is just terrible. I loved Tomb Kings, and I liked Fantasy. But they want to replace us with Vampire Counts+, so I see no use in keeping my beloved Tomb Kings. Especially when I could use them to net me some more Necrons or something.

It's sad when they're now worth more to me by not having them.

I don't understand the anger to be honest. I also have a tomb kings army.

There is no such thing as vampire counts or tomb kings anymore, just the faction Death.

If someone already has a tomb kings army, they can continue to use the models with the warscrolls already in existence. You can download them and save them. They should always be valid.

auticus wrote:
I don't understand the anger to be honest. I also have a tomb kings army.

There is no such thing as vampire counts or tomb kings anymore, just the faction Death.

If someone already has a tomb kings army, they can continue to use the models with the warscrolls already in existence. You can download them and save them. They should always be valid.

But the model range won't be. I'd have to go through ebay or something similar to get models from now on, or buy secondhand, which I despise doing.

And sure, there's just the Death Faction...with all the Vampire Counts models. They could've easily kept the Tomb Kings, but noooooo....

auticus wrote:
You can download them and save them. They should always be valid.

What is this I hear? Is it the distant echoes of the last words of so many conformist Squat players, coming from the past?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, anyway, there goes one faction of WHFB. Bretonnia should be next, if logic is to be followed.

As for the Empire and/or some elves... I am thinking Empire and both HE and DE are getting the axe, though the later is in for of a twisted fusion that will give us some form of twisted Chaos spawn of elvendom.

Have a friend who used to play tomb kings. They quit long ago, but I think they still have their army somewhere. I may be able to pick up the stuff I missed that way.

To add to my Age of Sigmar army.

To play as Tomb Kings.

I was about to say that GW might drag them back out again later on as a rebranded "new" army.

But then I realized that the Bloodthirster was "discontinued" for about a week before they came out with new round bases.

Maybe this is just a re-basing thing.

If not, GW always keeps the molds. Remember when in 5th edition Bjorn magically came back as a finecast model?

krodarklorr wrote:You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff

I guess GW were partly right in that canning games and things would send people running to 40K.

infinite_array wrote:
You could keep it and have even more points of Empire of Dust for KoW.

Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
.....Or Undying Dynasties for 9th Age

Kilkrazy wrote:Try Hordes Of The Things. Your TK will fit right in.

Or use Dragon Rampant and stick some of the undead rules on them. Or use Mayhem, Legions of Battle or Armies of Arcana and built unit stats how you like...

 krodarklorr wrote:

Eh, no thanks. I don't like to play things that are out of date, and I hate buying things second hand online.

What's out of date about them? GW's TK rules for WFB or AoS might be seen as out of date, now they've stopped dangling that particular carrot. But you still have your models. No best before date on them. No timed nanobombs in them. They're all there, waiting to be played with and loved like so many boney little Sheriff Woodies and Buzz Lightyears.

And you have 3K+ points of them! What more do you need to buy?

Kilkrazy wrote:He could recruit people. HoTT uses standard Ancients basing so nearly any existing army can be used. It's a bit sad if everyone sits around at home lamenting the fact that someone else hasn't already set up a game group for them to join.

This. This so much. One meellion exalts.

GW has been around so long and has been so pervasive, with so many gamers spending their whole wargaming hobby within that particular venn circle, that the convenience of their one-stop-shop is too often seen as the only way to choose and organise games. Just paint, listbuild, line up and go. Newer package games like Warmachine and Malifaux pretty much offer more of the same.
But there are other ways. Minis and background don't have to be irrecoverably welded to one set of rules (special unit rules are ersatz fluff) or eachother. Games don't always have to be random pickups. You don't have to care whether some shop or club halfway across the country or the world is playing it too. 'Support' can mean 'you and your gaming buddies have the books and minis to play with' rather than a constant cycle of 'buying stuff'. A game catching on can have less to do with 'does GW make it?' or even 'Does BoW/KS hype the crud out of it?' and more to do with 'Hey I found this interesting game, the rules look great, we don't even have to buy new minis for it, let's give it a try, we can organise it for next time, give it a try, I'll give you a game of that if you give me a game of this, give it a try...'

There can be mitigating circumstances but I don't know if the entire, sheer, collective phobia of 'unsupported' or 'non-package' games, or of 'talking to someone to organise your gaming', can be completely attributed to that. I hear anecdotes of 'I only play in a GW store' or 'my club doesn't play that', but I have my own anecdote: I used to play only in a GW store, where they didn't play 'that'. Then we veterans got ejected, we started using dinner tables and finding clubs we never knew about, and we started trying new games.

And it was brilliant.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

I want to give most of you all skelehugs and comfort you.

I know there may be some skepticism for switching over to KOW, but things have changed dramatically from 1st ed.
I had the GE, but just picked up the BRB printed because the art is fricken gorgeous. I'm on pins and needles waiting for my copy of the to come in just to see how sexy Empire of Dust is.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I was about to say that GW might drag them back out again later on as a rebranded "new" army.

But then I realized that the Bloodthirster was "discontinued" for about a week before they came out with new round bases.

Maybe this is just a re-basing thing.

If not, GW always keeps the molds. Remember when in 5th edition Bjorn magically came back as a finecast model?

"Last chance to buy" is a new thing though, and the fact that as Chaos got their published warscroll compendium, a load of Chaos units disappear from said compendium and the minis appeared marked as last chance to buy.
Up to now, rebasing has been minis disappear from stores for a week or two then bounce back with a new box.
(And at the very least, the credible rumour sources were already quite clear on what was rebasing when stuff disappeared)

Hellcannon had to go because Chaos Dwarfs. Galrauch, Throgg & Tretch, can't really think why unless they were just bad sellers not worth the jump to plastic.
Forsaken, my pet theory on that is that the Tzeentch equivalent of the Blightkings/Wrathmongers type minis will be 'mutant chaos warriors' and Forsaken would be competing for that model niche.

But for every last model in a faction to go, I don't see a way back from that. Unless they have something convoluted planned involving Arkhan, I just don't see anything like the Khemrians making an appearance again.

 Boggy Man wrote:
I want to give most of you all skelehugs and comfort you.

I know there may be some skepticism for switching over to KOW, but things have changed dramatically from 1st ed.
I had the GE, but just picked up the BRB printed because the art is fricken gorgeous. I'm on pins and needles waiting for my copy of the to come in just to see how sexy Empire of Dust is.

KoW is a very different game. Really no more WHFB than AoS is. 9e might be a better alternative for people who miss 8th, while I'd recommend that those who liked TK in AoS (and there were a couple) go right on playing their existing models as is.

This is a change in availability of models, not rules. The 8e TK rules were already discontinued 6 months ago along with the rest of 8e. The AoS TK rules are still right where they were - the GAoD page on the store even links directly to them. Now, if mantic were unveiling a line of halfway decent looking TK alternative models, that would be something meaningful to bring up. I honestly hope they do, I still wanted to get Ushabti with bows, and never got around to it, it would be nice to have an alternative, even if I'm not the biggest fan of Mantic's models in general.

So yeah, I wonder if they or any other company will try to step into that hole, or if the knowledge that this only happened because the sales weren't there to support TK in the first place will keep them away. On the one hand, Mantic did step in with their own chaos dwarves. On the other hand, I'm still unaware of any 3rd party Squats. We'll see.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Oh, don't get me wrong, if they ever mess up 40k, I'd quit buying stuff in a heartbeat. And the reason I don't play other games is because I don't care for the fluff, the scale, or the models.

Then one day you will be gak out of luck.

GW with only two games on the market (three if they continue LoTR) and a history of making sweeping changes, including canning entire factions and games, are certain at some point to do something to 40K that you don't like.

There're are several mass battle fantasy, and skirmish fantasy games, that can accomodate your TKs. Grab some rules and get weaving now, before it's too late, is my advice.

There are several games with rules to acommodate tomb king armies, or at least parts of them. Heck, Age of Sigmar still qualifies as one of them, as the Tomb Kings rules haven't gone anywhere.

What there aren't are any other fantasy games with miniature lines to replace those GW is pulling. If you already have your complete Tomb Kings army, then nothing's changing for you in AoS. You either liked how your army ran in that game or you didn't, but you weren't buying more for them, so the fact that GW isn't selling more for them doesn't make a difference.

But if you had an incomplete tomb kings army, then the fact that it can be an incomplete tomb kings army for 9A or KoW instead of an incomplete army for AoS doesn't really help you much.

It might be possible to make a fair number of TK units with skeleton horses and infantry from other manufacturers and chariots and stuff from an historical range, if you need to finish off an army

Wargames Foundry do the chariots, for example, though they are fairly pricey at £14 each. It's a shame to throw away so much lead, and you might ask the Foundry guys if you can buy just the chariots for a lower price.

I actually wanted to buy some Tomb King Skeletons for Frostgrave, might just need to go grab them at RRP when I get paid :( Or do you reckon people will be dumping them?

I actually quite like the move towards last chance to buy (my localish GW has a shelf); it's so much better than then just silently disappearing like The Hobbit line, but that it's always got stuff on it just shows how much they are getting rid of.

Edit: Though the Foundry Classic Greek Skeletons are tempting. Now that's some company; you can pretty much get anything they've ever made. It's not cheap, but the range is without equal.

Well I thought AoS would be a great time to start that Bretonnian army I always wanted. I guess I thought wrong. We can't know for sure that "last chance to buy" means squatting or that Bretonnians will get a similar treatment, but it's not looking good for TKs and I guess it's been bandied around that Brets are next. Sad days indeed. I'm sure I'll find a use for all these medieval knights, but what am I gonna do with these pegasuses?

Do I just spend a ton of money getting everything I want (trebuchet, damsels/Fay, Grail Reliquae, men-at-arms, more bowmen, pally standard bearer and questing knights) while I still can? or do I just cut my losses and look for a different fantasy game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind they don't even have Questing Knights in stock. What the

Get a different game, and/or a few boxes of Perrys infantry

Malisteen wrote:KoW is a very different game. Really no more WHFB than AoS is.

It's still block combat. But yes, it's different. It, and other block combat games, are arguably more appropriate to block combat than WFB ever was. WFB was, IIRC, the only fantasy block combat game (with a couple of historical spinoffs and imitators) that played in the way it did, as the oversized skirmish game it was, with focus on individual models, and their long stat lines, range determination, rank bonuses, removal, etc.

And now it's gone, no longer readily available, with only 9th Age trying to uphold that play style. Time to show how everyone else does it.

krodarklorr wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong, if they ever mess up 40k, I'd quit buying stuff in a heartbeat. And the reason I don't play other games is because I don't care for the fluff, the scale, or the models.

I can understand people not reading my posts. They're often long and pretty grumpy. But TL;DR: What Killkrazy said. You still have your TK models. You've probably internalised reams of TK fluff. Neither of these is dependent on WFB or AoS rules. Go! Find other books, other rules! Run free, young heart!

In Dragon Rampant, a 'big' skirmish game, you can stick fear and undead rules on them. Or Mayhem, a block battle game that, like KoW, doesn't demand such a huge number of minis just to act as wound counters, but in which you can also design and build your units from stats upwards, using lists of abilities and costs. I don't know exactly how TK played during the last couple of editions but I remember some 6th gossip about the degree of control and buffing that the tomb kings and liche priests had. So in Mayhem, sounds like an excuse to go mad with an upgraded battle sorceror and all the summoning and binding spells they can take, not to mention some of the discipline-based unit traits. And the obvious fear rule.

Malisteen wrote:
But if you had an incomplete tomb kings army, then the fact that it can be an incomplete tomb kings army for 9A or KoW instead of an incomplete army for AoS doesn't really help you much.

Given what you needed for an average 8th ed army, and AoS being touted as a small model count game, would many incomplete TK armies really be insufficient for it?

Especially when we've got people going "I can't buy anything to add to my three thousand points of tomb kings models! Woe, woe, thrice woe! How can I accomplish anything with this tiny little giant heap of minis? I might as well dump them on ebay..."

bocatt wrote:Well I thought AoS would be a great time to start that Bretonnian army I always wanted.

I said it before, but I'm starting a Bretonnian army for Dragon Rampant (played as actual Bretonnians from blown-up Bretonnia), AoS and 'last chance to buy' be... befusticated. Managed to grab a box of old metal questing knights on ebay, for no small price, and they'll be supplemented by Fireforge foot sergeants and probably some Frostgrave conversions.

I'm sure I'll find a use for all these medieval knights, but what am I gonna do with these pegasuses?

Dragon Rampant, elite riders, flying.

Mayhem, good movement, good combat quality, cavalry, flyers, heavy armour, lances.

And so on.

Do I just spend a ton of money getting everything I want (trebuchet, damsels/Fay, Grail Reliquae, men-at-arms, more bowmen, pally standard bearer and questing knights) while I still can? or do I just cut my losses and look for a different fantasy game?

I've said I'm not fond of panic buying myself, but if you want them, and your gaming group isn't completely close-minded, buy them and use them.

All the above being said, I think you will be able to pick up a lot of TK stuff on eBay as other players give up and sell off their armies like you are considering.

Luckily, Bretonnians have lots of potential miniature options at the moment.

http://www.fireforge-games.com/webstore?productsublayout=0

Fireforge games do crusaders, teutonic knights, trooper and mounted seargents and the like that fit with GW's heroic scale aesthetic. They're also full plastic. Check them out!

Another option is Conquest Games, which does great Norman Knights, Melee Infantry and now really nice Archers as well.
http://www.conquest-games.co.uk/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=2022f82a69e970d1caf064d3d12ecb61

I prefer the Conquest Games stuff personally but it's a bit more Dark Ages than the GW Brettonians. Fireforge stuff would work well with GW stuff though.

Both of these options are fully plastic.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Not very fair. Gw is a business, and needs to prioritize the salability of it's products, rather than the availability of ranges that never got out the red. If it was any other business dropping a line that never recovered its development costs, they wouldn't be criticized for it. I know it could be argued that better rules would have sold more models and I don't disagree, but, as a tk collector myself, I don't blame them for dropping the range to focus on more profitable ranges.

Bought:

Khalida

Necrosphinx

Necropolis Knights x3

Ushabti with great weapons

4x Tomb Guard

I'm primarily a VC Player (though do not use a single vampire actualy) but always found the above TK models beautiful and characterful, somehow couldn't resist though had my doubts as the money could have bought me moar Black Knights/ skeletons. Will use for KoW/ 8th.

GW hey let's release sigmarines and varanguard riding Alf but scrap TK, congratulations and good job. I'm certain that new TK skeletons and cavalry/ chariots would revitalise the range, VC skeletons are imo great, can't get enough of those.

Btw if GW products are for collectors and painters, how is a beautiful model like Necrospinx that is a living room display material gets discontinued? It's almost like most people were buying for the game or sth.

 JamesY wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Not very fair. Gw is a business, and needs to prioritize the salability of it's products, rather than the availability of ranges that never got out the red. If it was any other business dropping a line that never recovered its development costs, they wouldn't be criticized for it. I know it could be argued that better rules would have sold more models and I don't disagree, but, as a tk collector myself, I don't blame them for dropping the range to focus on more profitable ranges.

As players, though, we don't care about GW as a business. All we want is zarjaz figure ranges. It hardly helps TK fans that GW continues to be most profitable by dumping the figures they want to buy and use. Actually we would prefer they produce the TK models and go bust.

 JamesY wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Not very fair. Gw is a business, and needs to prioritize the salability of it's products, rather than the availability of ranges that never got out the red. If it was any other business dropping a line that never recovered its development costs, they wouldn't be criticized for it. I know it could be argued that better rules would have sold more models and I don't disagree, but, as a tk collector myself, I don't blame them for dropping the range to focus on more profitable ranges.

GW is a business, and as a business dropping an army is a risky move. You don't want your customers thinking you'll only support a range of miniatures while it's profitable otherwise they might not choose to start another army with you.

Especially since GW armies are so damned large, time consuming and expensive that people usually build them over the course of years. Something like a Bolt Action army I could buy a rather "complete" force in a single purchase, so if they decide they want to drop old models it's less of a problem. But with GW's games you want to feel confident that the army you start today is still going to be supported in a few years.

@kilkrazy ha ha

@allseeingskink in fairness, this is only the second army to be dropped in gw's 40 odd years. If you've got the models they can still be used with up to date rules, and when the day comes when the rules update, a skeleton is a skeleton, a liche us a necromancer, a bone giant is a giant etc. They have been on the shelves for years and, as a range, have not been profitable. You can't see such a decision emotionally, it's a business decision, and the right one. People have had years to build an army, and yes, some people might not be able to complete a project, and I sympathise, but you can't expect a business to produce, store, and take retail space up with a product that isn't justifying it's shelf space.

 JamesY wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Not very fair. Gw is a business, and needs to prioritize the salability of it's products, rather than the availability of ranges that never got out the red. If it was any other business dropping a line that never recovered its development costs, they wouldn't be criticized for it. I know it could be argued that better rules would have sold more models and I don't disagree, but, as a tk collector myself, I don't blame them for dropping the range to focus on more profitable ranges.

Thing is, there's nothing stopping them moving this stuff to demand only with a 2 week lead time. With another year of declining sales they'd have the capacity to pull out a mold and cast it in down time. Or they could let someone else do them under license and take a profit for doing nothing.

Reducing the breadth of your offerings is rarely a good thing especially when you're having customer recruitment /retention problems

Maybe they'll do a classics range?

Herzlos wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Not very fair. Gw is a business, and needs to prioritize the salability of it's products, rather than the availability of ranges that never got out the red. If it was any other business dropping a line that never recovered its development costs, they wouldn't be criticized for it. I know it could be argued that better rules would have sold more models and I don't disagree, but, as a tk collector myself, I don't blame them for dropping the range to focus on more profitable ranges.

Thing is, there's nothing stopping them moving this stuff to demand only with a 2 week lead time. With another year of declining sales they'd have the capacity to pull out a mold and cast it in down time. Or they could let someone else do them under license and take a profit for doing nothing.

Reducing the breadth of your offerings is rarely a good thing especially when you're having customer recruitment /retention problems

Maybe they'll do a classics range?

On demand with metal and resin casts is one thing, doing it with plastic is another, especially with the amount they would have to produce. The time taken changing the plates, casting, packaging etc would take production time away from much more profitable lines. Plus then the amount they would have to make, they'd be sat on 99 boxes for the sake of the one they sold. They are expanding the line, but need to create space, both on the shelves and the production schedule. They are a volume retailer now, they aren't interested in chasing after on off sales like that. Like I've said, a bitter pill to swallow for some, but objectively they are making the right decision, especially as they still have an undead army on the shelves.

They are a volume retailer with a volume that is declining Year-On-Year.

I get that there's difficulties with changing the plastic molds (I've no idea how few stamps you could justify), and obviously the metal/resin molds will need recut from time to time, with a trade off on volume.

But that's just another glaring flaw with GW's aim of using high-volume plastic injection for low volume products.

Take Wargames Foundry - all metal, but you can still buy more or less anything they've ever made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JamesY wrote:
@allseeingskink in fairness, this is only the second army to be dropped in gw's 40 odd years.

From memory they've dropped:

Fantasy:
Slann
Chaos Dwarfs
Dogs Of War
Empire*
Bretonnians*
Tomb Kings

40K:
Squats
Sisters Of Battle*


*Not officially squatted, but unsupported and will an increasing range of OOP models.

Slann aren't an army, chaos dwarfs still exist and have a decent range and rules, dogs of war were intended as allied units rather than a stand alone army. The rest are still supported at present.

Also, holding on desperately to lines that don't sell goes hand in hand with declining sales.

It's disingenuous to say that Chaos Dwarfs still exist; they dont' even have AoS warscrolls and are only provided by FW.

Ditto for the rest of them; they are only supported in that they have some temporary scrolls and a dwindling collection of mini's are still available (whilst stocks last). They haven't got any updates in years, and are likely to disappear completely at some point. They are in a limbo between being supported and being squatted.

Diversification is never a bad thing unless you're overextending yourself. So whilst I'd never recommend they waste more money producing new stuff for these unsupported armies, or wasting shelf space in the brick and mortar stores, the cost to keep selling them from the webstore is minimal; it's just the cost of storing the molds (retooling the rubber occasionally) and the cost of actually casting them up (there's no reason they couldn't make them on-demand and stick 20% onto the cost to cover the overhead). Since their volume is dropping by at least 5% every year, they must have an increasing amount of empty storage space and casting down time. They also don't even need fancy packaging as they often provide stuff in plain white boxes.


Part of the appeal with GW has always been in support - it stays around for a long time and anything you buy is still usable in game, so whilst it's expensive it's justified in the long term. Squatting entire armies goes directly against that and will put off more purchases than it potentially saves them in inventory. How many people will be avoid starting a new army incase it gets squatted on them, again?

Like I said, there would be dozens of smaller mini's companies willing to pay GW a pretty penny for the molds/masters in order to keep producing them. I believe they got a lot of offers for the Specialist Games stuff when they went away last time. They could outsource it to some guy in a shed, keep the good will and some of the money, and have literally no down sides. But GW has recently been pretty focused on control and short termism.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/aos_warscrolls/warhammer-aos-legion-of-azgorh.pdf

There is the warscroll for chaos dwarfs. Gw still produce them, arguing that fw make them rather than citadel makes no difference to the outcome, they are available.

We don't know the intentions for the other armies you've mentioned so let's not talk as if speculation is fact. Making new moulds is expensive so the role out for the re-envisioned armies will take time. Dwarves have been done with no real losses, chaos have gained with minimal losses. No reason yet to assume that anything is being chopped. If there are projects still to finish though, perhaps the fate of tk might help people prioritize there next few purchases.

I think GW may have made the right decision in accounting terms, but the wrong one in marketing terms.

It is undoubtedly the case that the TKs weren't making enough profit for GW to want to continue with them, or else they would not have been canned. But that's no benefit to any of us, and no-one can find a good thing to say about it. GW made £15M profit last year. Is it really that ahrd to keep the TKs going for another three months to let players round out their armies?

AoS by itself has drawn a lot of criticism but also a lot of enthusiasm, and it at least is some kind of a positive step. One rulebook was canned and a new game was published instead.

As for canning the TKs, though, people have given reasons, explanations and excuses, but absolutely no-one is saying it is a good thing.

It would have been easy for GW to write TKs into the Death faction book, and bring the range back in a couple of years, when the capacity is availalable to remake all the Finecast figures as plastic. Obviously that is not the plan, though.

Instead, we are giving TK players consolation and advice about how to complete their armies (possibly with non-GW figures) and swap to other (non-GW) games.

I don't have any faith in the mantra that GW have only canned two armies in 30 years. That's no guarantee they won't can a third, and a fourth. Many fear that Sisters of Battle in 40K are hanging on by their fingernails. The faction is in a vicious spiral; old-fashioned models (actually, I like them) that are expensive so not very attractive to new players. There's a couple of kits, like the Penitent Engine, that really ought to be plastic. Low sales means GW have less incentive to redo the range in plastic.

I reckon everyone with a legacy WHFB army should check how many of the units are available as plastic rather than Finecast. Lizard Men clearly are OK because they have already been relaunched. All their units except for some of the special characters are plastic. The TK I believe have a lot more Finecast units. It's GW's long term plan to change everything to plastic.

 JamesY wrote:
Slann aren't an army, chaos dwarfs still exist and have a decent range and rules, dogs of war were intended as allied units rather than a stand alone army. The rest are still supported at present.

Also, holding on desperately to lines that don't sell goes hand in hand with declining sales.

Slann were an army in, ummm, 3rd ed I think? Before my time. There were Slann Braves, Slann Elite and Slann Cavalry.

You're right in saying GW haven't removed too many armies over the years, and that has been one of their strengths and one of the reasons people feel confident starting an army even if it's going to take them years to finish.... but this is new times and people are watching and waiting for things to change and that change is coming in the form of removing TK.... so what's next? Bretonnia? Empire? Some of the Elves?

AoS has changed the rules (not just literally but figuratively as well). Removing a fully fledged army is something that can stop people starting a new army because they don't have the confidence the army will still exist in a year.

So yeah, GW removing an army, even an unprofitable one, is a risky move IMO. It'll make your customers question your commitment to a range.

I certainly would not be recommending anyone start any of the old armies at this point. GW doesn't want to be in a position where a 20 year vet is telling new comers not to start an army.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't have any faith in the mantra that GW have only canned two armies in 30 years. That's no guarantee they won't can a third, and a fourth. Many fear that Sisters of Battle in 40K are hanging on by their fingernails. The faction is in a vicious spiral; old-fashioned models (actually, I like them) that are expensive so not very attractive to new players. There's a couple of kits, like the Penitent Engine, that really ought to be plastic. Low sales means GW have less incentive to redo the range in plastic.

I reckon everyone with a legacy WHFB army should check how many of the units are available as plastic rather than Finecast. Lizard Men clearly are OK because they have already been relaunched. All their units except for some of the special characters are plastic. The TK I believe have a lot more Finecast units. It's GW's long term plan to change everything to plastic.

Out of curiosity, can we consider each of the discontinued SG's as "an army" for canning conditions? Because, army or not, it's a lot of stuff to discontinue due to obviously economic reasons.

Some people seem to be forgetting all those games. The same situation applies - I mean how can one confidently buy the new BB stuff when you know what happened to the previous edition?

"Buy and Pray"?

At this point I would not hold my breath over almost any of the old WHFB factions surviving in their current form.

Dwarfs seem to be transitioning over to something new rather than being killed off but I can already see the writing on the wall for the traditional dwarfs and the models.

TKs are dead.

Elves are becoming one flavour with a few tweaks. I get the feel that wood elves will die off completely and dryads and the tree stuff be the only thing that survives from them.

Bretonians, yeah well they were pretty dead already and will no doubt soon be "last chanced"

No real sign of any kind of "human empires" so state troops and empire models are probably doomed.

SGs (Specialist Games) like Blood Bowl are a rather different case to WHFB or AoS.

Some SGs, such as Space Hulk, were standalone boxed games. To me, for GW to cease production of Space Hulk would be the equivalent of ceasing production of AoS starter set without having published any of the support material including the books, legacy war scrolls or add-on Sigmarine units (for instance.) To put it differently, Space Hulk could never have been expected to be available indefinitely, but once it did go OOP, the boxes you already owned were still perfectly playable.

Blood Bowl of course was playable as a standalone game for which you could also buy extra teams, which were like add-on armies. Canning an army from AoS is a bit mopre like canning a team from Blood Bowl. The difference is that almost all the armies in AoS are legacy armies from WHFB that had already existed for decades in some cases. Sigmarines are the exception, of course. Canning a legacy army from AoS is a follow-on from canning the whole of WHFB, and we know how popular that decision was.

At any rate, I don't think canning an SG is the same as canning a mainstream army from one of the core games.

What about Epic? As I hear it that WAS a core game once upon a time.

Or LorR? I suppose it is in more of a Sisters situation, still around but with 0 support and forgotten about by GW, but it was core once upon a time too.

Chances are as the warscroll is available its just going to be a re-box and if we are lucky a redesign of the troops in general.
As far as getting the current models, there are plenty of independent stockists with the models. For example the stockist I work for http://www.alchemistsworkshops.com has the troops and Warsphinx in stock as we speak with at least 20% off RRP
All about hitting the stores now to find the best deals and hope GW realizes its pushing the price of AoSup way and beyond what fantasy was.
In terms of Bretonnia I really worry for them as half of the units cant be used as effectively anymore as the knight formations have disappeared along with the rank bonuses etc

 jonolikespie wrote:
What about Epic? As I hear it that WAS a core game once upon a time.

Or LorR? I suppose it is in more of a Sisters situation, still around but with 0 support and forgotten about by GW, but it was core once upon a time too.

Epic was definitely a core game, in that it was demo'd in store and had shelf space, pre LOTR. I was under the impression there would be some new LOTR stuff under the new specialist umbrella too, but I've no idea how much.

LoTR is being continued, apparently.

The difference with Epic is that if all the armies were completed, GW didn't tell people they could transfer them to a completely new game, and then pull support of one army from the game nine months after release.

I saw a picture of Malerion finally, and decided to drop my Dark Elf army until the new models come out. I kinda see this as the right choice now as GW is dropping models and armies quite frequently it seems. Also worried about starting Slaanesh just hoping for a comeback soon... then Sigvald is generic slaanesh lord and the only 2 WoC/ Slaanesh kits are unavailable.

Edit: Like all of slaanesh is unavailable.

;_; why......why did GW violate the WHFB franchise so much....I am a 40k player but was showing more interest in this side of the hobby lately.....and now tomb kings AXED....what the hell? That was a beautiful range full of lore and originality...now no longer available except on ebay hunts and likely to appreciate in value as the months go on....why are GW killing such a source of income? You cant tell me WHFB wasnt selling well in the past....sure it wasnt as popular as 40k but still, it was a functional, beautiful game and one of the things GW could rely on as source of income. Now? AoS...risky

One of the armies i still have to paint is my over-complete Khemri collection. A pity...
I liked both background and models more than any other GW undead project. Also pity that i have a table of egyptian / khemri temple scenery.

I do understand why GW does this: if something does not sell, it will be axed. Not a strange thing for a business.
And business was bad for WHFB, AoS does better, so they might be onto something. But AoS is not for me.

But i will keep my WHFB armies as they are. I might put the armies i still have to paint on round bases, but there is no rush. I focus on other games and wait what the future will bring for WHFB and AoS.