Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't understand the anger to be honest. I also have a tomb kings army.

There is no such thing as vampire counts or tomb kings anymore, just the faction Death.

If someone already has a tomb kings army, they can continue to use the models with the warscrolls already in existence. You can download them and save them. They should always be valid.

auticus wrote:
I don't understand the anger to be honest. I also have a tomb kings army.

There is no such thing as vampire counts or tomb kings anymore, just the faction Death.

If someone already has a tomb kings army, they can continue to use the models with the warscrolls already in existence. You can download them and save them. They should always be valid.

But the model range won't be. I'd have to go through ebay or something similar to get models from now on, or buy secondhand, which I despise doing.

And sure, there's just the Death Faction...with all the Vampire Counts models. They could've easily kept the Tomb Kings, but noooooo....

auticus wrote:
You can download them and save them. They should always be valid.

What is this I hear? Is it the distant echoes of the last words of so many conformist Squat players, coming from the past?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, anyway, there goes one faction of WHFB. Bretonnia should be next, if logic is to be followed.

As for the Empire and/or some elves... I am thinking Empire and both HE and DE are getting the axe, though the later is in for of a twisted fusion that will give us some form of twisted Chaos spawn of elvendom.

Have a friend who used to play tomb kings. They quit long ago, but I think they still have their army somewhere. I may be able to pick up the stuff I missed that way.

To add to my Age of Sigmar army.

To play as Tomb Kings.

I was about to say that GW might drag them back out again later on as a rebranded "new" army.

But then I realized that the Bloodthirster was "discontinued" for about a week before they came out with new round bases.

Maybe this is just a re-basing thing.

If not, GW always keeps the molds. Remember when in 5th edition Bjorn magically came back as a finecast model?

krodarklorr wrote:You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff

I guess GW were partly right in that canning games and things would send people running to 40K.

infinite_array wrote:
You could keep it and have even more points of Empire of Dust for KoW.

Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
.....Or Undying Dynasties for 9th Age

Kilkrazy wrote:Try Hordes Of The Things. Your TK will fit right in.

Or use Dragon Rampant and stick some of the undead rules on them. Or use Mayhem, Legions of Battle or Armies of Arcana and built unit stats how you like...

 krodarklorr wrote:

Eh, no thanks. I don't like to play things that are out of date, and I hate buying things second hand online.

What's out of date about them? GW's TK rules for WFB or AoS might be seen as out of date, now they've stopped dangling that particular carrot. But you still have your models. No best before date on them. No timed nanobombs in them. They're all there, waiting to be played with and loved like so many boney little Sheriff Woodies and Buzz Lightyears.

And you have 3K+ points of them! What more do you need to buy?

Kilkrazy wrote:He could recruit people. HoTT uses standard Ancients basing so nearly any existing army can be used. It's a bit sad if everyone sits around at home lamenting the fact that someone else hasn't already set up a game group for them to join.

This. This so much. One meellion exalts.

GW has been around so long and has been so pervasive, with so many gamers spending their whole wargaming hobby within that particular venn circle, that the convenience of their one-stop-shop is too often seen as the only way to choose and organise games. Just paint, listbuild, line up and go. Newer package games like Warmachine and Malifaux pretty much offer more of the same.
But there are other ways. Minis and background don't have to be irrecoverably welded to one set of rules (special unit rules are ersatz fluff) or eachother. Games don't always have to be random pickups. You don't have to care whether some shop or club halfway across the country or the world is playing it too. 'Support' can mean 'you and your gaming buddies have the books and minis to play with' rather than a constant cycle of 'buying stuff'. A game catching on can have less to do with 'does GW make it?' or even 'Does BoW/KS hype the crud out of it?' and more to do with 'Hey I found this interesting game, the rules look great, we don't even have to buy new minis for it, let's give it a try, we can organise it for next time, give it a try, I'll give you a game of that if you give me a game of this, give it a try...'

There can be mitigating circumstances but I don't know if the entire, sheer, collective phobia of 'unsupported' or 'non-package' games, or of 'talking to someone to organise your gaming', can be completely attributed to that. I hear anecdotes of 'I only play in a GW store' or 'my club doesn't play that', but I have my own anecdote: I used to play only in a GW store, where they didn't play 'that'. Then we veterans got ejected, we started using dinner tables and finding clubs we never knew about, and we started trying new games.

And it was brilliant.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

I want to give most of you all skelehugs and comfort you.

I know there may be some skepticism for switching over to KOW, but things have changed dramatically from 1st ed.
I had the GE, but just picked up the BRB printed because the art is fricken gorgeous. I'm on pins and needles waiting for my copy of the to come in just to see how sexy Empire of Dust is.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I was about to say that GW might drag them back out again later on as a rebranded "new" army.

But then I realized that the Bloodthirster was "discontinued" for about a week before they came out with new round bases.

Maybe this is just a re-basing thing.

If not, GW always keeps the molds. Remember when in 5th edition Bjorn magically came back as a finecast model?

"Last chance to buy" is a new thing though, and the fact that as Chaos got their published warscroll compendium, a load of Chaos units disappear from said compendium and the minis appeared marked as last chance to buy.
Up to now, rebasing has been minis disappear from stores for a week or two then bounce back with a new box.
(And at the very least, the credible rumour sources were already quite clear on what was rebasing when stuff disappeared)

Hellcannon had to go because Chaos Dwarfs. Galrauch, Throgg & Tretch, can't really think why unless they were just bad sellers not worth the jump to plastic.
Forsaken, my pet theory on that is that the Tzeentch equivalent of the Blightkings/Wrathmongers type minis will be 'mutant chaos warriors' and Forsaken would be competing for that model niche.

But for every last model in a faction to go, I don't see a way back from that. Unless they have something convoluted planned involving Arkhan, I just don't see anything like the Khemrians making an appearance again.

 Boggy Man wrote:
I want to give most of you all skelehugs and comfort you.

I know there may be some skepticism for switching over to KOW, but things have changed dramatically from 1st ed.
I had the GE, but just picked up the BRB printed because the art is fricken gorgeous. I'm on pins and needles waiting for my copy of the to come in just to see how sexy Empire of Dust is.

KoW is a very different game. Really no more WHFB than AoS is. 9e might be a better alternative for people who miss 8th, while I'd recommend that those who liked TK in AoS (and there were a couple) go right on playing their existing models as is.

This is a change in availability of models, not rules. The 8e TK rules were already discontinued 6 months ago along with the rest of 8e. The AoS TK rules are still right where they were - the GAoD page on the store even links directly to them. Now, if mantic were unveiling a line of halfway decent looking TK alternative models, that would be something meaningful to bring up. I honestly hope they do, I still wanted to get Ushabti with bows, and never got around to it, it would be nice to have an alternative, even if I'm not the biggest fan of Mantic's models in general.

So yeah, I wonder if they or any other company will try to step into that hole, or if the knowledge that this only happened because the sales weren't there to support TK in the first place will keep them away. On the one hand, Mantic did step in with their own chaos dwarves. On the other hand, I'm still unaware of any 3rd party Squats. We'll see.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Oh, don't get me wrong, if they ever mess up 40k, I'd quit buying stuff in a heartbeat. And the reason I don't play other games is because I don't care for the fluff, the scale, or the models.

Then one day you will be gak out of luck.

GW with only two games on the market (three if they continue LoTR) and a history of making sweeping changes, including canning entire factions and games, are certain at some point to do something to 40K that you don't like.

There're are several mass battle fantasy, and skirmish fantasy games, that can accomodate your TKs. Grab some rules and get weaving now, before it's too late, is my advice.

There are several games with rules to acommodate tomb king armies, or at least parts of them. Heck, Age of Sigmar still qualifies as one of them, as the Tomb Kings rules haven't gone anywhere.

What there aren't are any other fantasy games with miniature lines to replace those GW is pulling. If you already have your complete Tomb Kings army, then nothing's changing for you in AoS. You either liked how your army ran in that game or you didn't, but you weren't buying more for them, so the fact that GW isn't selling more for them doesn't make a difference.

But if you had an incomplete tomb kings army, then the fact that it can be an incomplete tomb kings army for 9A or KoW instead of an incomplete army for AoS doesn't really help you much.

It might be possible to make a fair number of TK units with skeleton horses and infantry from other manufacturers and chariots and stuff from an historical range, if you need to finish off an army

Wargames Foundry do the chariots, for example, though they are fairly pricey at £14 each. It's a shame to throw away so much lead, and you might ask the Foundry guys if you can buy just the chariots for a lower price.

I actually wanted to buy some Tomb King Skeletons for Frostgrave, might just need to go grab them at RRP when I get paid :( Or do you reckon people will be dumping them?

I actually quite like the move towards last chance to buy (my localish GW has a shelf); it's so much better than then just silently disappearing like The Hobbit line, but that it's always got stuff on it just shows how much they are getting rid of.

Edit: Though the Foundry Classic Greek Skeletons are tempting. Now that's some company; you can pretty much get anything they've ever made. It's not cheap, but the range is without equal.

Well I thought AoS would be a great time to start that Bretonnian army I always wanted. I guess I thought wrong. We can't know for sure that "last chance to buy" means squatting or that Bretonnians will get a similar treatment, but it's not looking good for TKs and I guess it's been bandied around that Brets are next. Sad days indeed. I'm sure I'll find a use for all these medieval knights, but what am I gonna do with these pegasuses?

Do I just spend a ton of money getting everything I want (trebuchet, damsels/Fay, Grail Reliquae, men-at-arms, more bowmen, pally standard bearer and questing knights) while I still can? or do I just cut my losses and look for a different fantasy game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind they don't even have Questing Knights in stock. What the

Get a different game, and/or a few boxes of Perrys infantry

Malisteen wrote:KoW is a very different game. Really no more WHFB than AoS is.

It's still block combat. But yes, it's different. It, and other block combat games, are arguably more appropriate to block combat than WFB ever was. WFB was, IIRC, the only fantasy block combat game (with a couple of historical spinoffs and imitators) that played in the way it did, as the oversized skirmish game it was, with focus on individual models, and their long stat lines, range determination, rank bonuses, removal, etc.

And now it's gone, no longer readily available, with only 9th Age trying to uphold that play style. Time to show how everyone else does it.

krodarklorr wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong, if they ever mess up 40k, I'd quit buying stuff in a heartbeat. And the reason I don't play other games is because I don't care for the fluff, the scale, or the models.

I can understand people not reading my posts. They're often long and pretty grumpy. But TL;DR: What Killkrazy said. You still have your TK models. You've probably internalised reams of TK fluff. Neither of these is dependent on WFB or AoS rules. Go! Find other books, other rules! Run free, young heart!

In Dragon Rampant, a 'big' skirmish game, you can stick fear and undead rules on them. Or Mayhem, a block battle game that, like KoW, doesn't demand such a huge number of minis just to act as wound counters, but in which you can also design and build your units from stats upwards, using lists of abilities and costs. I don't know exactly how TK played during the last couple of editions but I remember some 6th gossip about the degree of control and buffing that the tomb kings and liche priests had. So in Mayhem, sounds like an excuse to go mad with an upgraded battle sorceror and all the summoning and binding spells they can take, not to mention some of the discipline-based unit traits. And the obvious fear rule.

Malisteen wrote:
But if you had an incomplete tomb kings army, then the fact that it can be an incomplete tomb kings army for 9A or KoW instead of an incomplete army for AoS doesn't really help you much.

Given what you needed for an average 8th ed army, and AoS being touted as a small model count game, would many incomplete TK armies really be insufficient for it?

Especially when we've got people going "I can't buy anything to add to my three thousand points of tomb kings models! Woe, woe, thrice woe! How can I accomplish anything with this tiny little giant heap of minis? I might as well dump them on ebay..."

bocatt wrote:Well I thought AoS would be a great time to start that Bretonnian army I always wanted.

I said it before, but I'm starting a Bretonnian army for Dragon Rampant (played as actual Bretonnians from blown-up Bretonnia), AoS and 'last chance to buy' be... befusticated. Managed to grab a box of old metal questing knights on ebay, for no small price, and they'll be supplemented by Fireforge foot sergeants and probably some Frostgrave conversions.

I'm sure I'll find a use for all these medieval knights, but what am I gonna do with these pegasuses?

Dragon Rampant, elite riders, flying.

Mayhem, good movement, good combat quality, cavalry, flyers, heavy armour, lances.

And so on.

Do I just spend a ton of money getting everything I want (trebuchet, damsels/Fay, Grail Reliquae, men-at-arms, more bowmen, pally standard bearer and questing knights) while I still can? or do I just cut my losses and look for a different fantasy game?

I've said I'm not fond of panic buying myself, but if you want them, and your gaming group isn't completely close-minded, buy them and use them.

All the above being said, I think you will be able to pick up a lot of TK stuff on eBay as other players give up and sell off their armies like you are considering.

Luckily, Bretonnians have lots of potential miniature options at the moment.

http://www.fireforge-games.com/webstore?productsublayout=0

Fireforge games do crusaders, teutonic knights, trooper and mounted seargents and the like that fit with GW's heroic scale aesthetic. They're also full plastic. Check them out!

Another option is Conquest Games, which does great Norman Knights, Melee Infantry and now really nice Archers as well.
http://www.conquest-games.co.uk/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=2022f82a69e970d1caf064d3d12ecb61

I prefer the Conquest Games stuff personally but it's a bit more Dark Ages than the GW Brettonians. Fireforge stuff would work well with GW stuff though.

Both of these options are fully plastic.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Not very fair. Gw is a business, and needs to prioritize the salability of it's products, rather than the availability of ranges that never got out the red. If it was any other business dropping a line that never recovered its development costs, they wouldn't be criticized for it. I know it could be argued that better rules would have sold more models and I don't disagree, but, as a tk collector myself, I don't blame them for dropping the range to focus on more profitable ranges.

Bought:

Khalida

Necrosphinx

Necropolis Knights x3

Ushabti with great weapons

4x Tomb Guard

I'm primarily a VC Player (though do not use a single vampire actualy) but always found the above TK models beautiful and characterful, somehow couldn't resist though had my doubts as the money could have bought me moar Black Knights/ skeletons. Will use for KoW/ 8th.

GW hey let's release sigmarines and varanguard riding Alf but scrap TK, congratulations and good job. I'm certain that new TK skeletons and cavalry/ chariots would revitalise the range, VC skeletons are imo great, can't get enough of those.

Btw if GW products are for collectors and painters, how is a beautiful model like Necrospinx that is a living room display material gets discontinued? It's almost like most people were buying for the game or sth.

 JamesY wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Not very fair. Gw is a business, and needs to prioritize the salability of it's products, rather than the availability of ranges that never got out the red. If it was any other business dropping a line that never recovered its development costs, they wouldn't be criticized for it. I know it could be argued that better rules would have sold more models and I don't disagree, but, as a tk collector myself, I don't blame them for dropping the range to focus on more profitable ranges.

As players, though, we don't care about GW as a business. All we want is zarjaz figure ranges. It hardly helps TK fans that GW continues to be most profitable by dumping the figures they want to buy and use. Actually we would prefer they produce the TK models and go bust.

 JamesY wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Not very fair. Gw is a business, and needs to prioritize the salability of it's products, rather than the availability of ranges that never got out the red. If it was any other business dropping a line that never recovered its development costs, they wouldn't be criticized for it. I know it could be argued that better rules would have sold more models and I don't disagree, but, as a tk collector myself, I don't blame them for dropping the range to focus on more profitable ranges.

GW is a business, and as a business dropping an army is a risky move. You don't want your customers thinking you'll only support a range of miniatures while it's profitable otherwise they might not choose to start another army with you.

Especially since GW armies are so damned large, time consuming and expensive that people usually build them over the course of years. Something like a Bolt Action army I could buy a rather "complete" force in a single purchase, so if they decide they want to drop old models it's less of a problem. But with GW's games you want to feel confident that the army you start today is still going to be supported in a few years.

@kilkrazy ha ha

@allseeingskink in fairness, this is only the second army to be dropped in gw's 40 odd years. If you've got the models they can still be used with up to date rules, and when the day comes when the rules update, a skeleton is a skeleton, a liche us a necromancer, a bone giant is a giant etc. They have been on the shelves for years and, as a range, have not been profitable. You can't see such a decision emotionally, it's a business decision, and the right one. People have had years to build an army, and yes, some people might not be able to complete a project, and I sympathise, but you can't expect a business to produce, store, and take retail space up with a product that isn't justifying it's shelf space.

 JamesY wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Not very fair. Gw is a business, and needs to prioritize the salability of it's products, rather than the availability of ranges that never got out the red. If it was any other business dropping a line that never recovered its development costs, they wouldn't be criticized for it. I know it could be argued that better rules would have sold more models and I don't disagree, but, as a tk collector myself, I don't blame them for dropping the range to focus on more profitable ranges.

Thing is, there's nothing stopping them moving this stuff to demand only with a 2 week lead time. With another year of declining sales they'd have the capacity to pull out a mold and cast it in down time. Or they could let someone else do them under license and take a profit for doing nothing.

Reducing the breadth of your offerings is rarely a good thing especially when you're having customer recruitment /retention problems

Maybe they'll do a classics range?

Herzlos wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Thank you, GW, for destroying my urge to start getting more into AoS. You have given me hope, however, that my Tomb Kings will provide me with money to buy more 40k stuff, so I may forever stay away from what is Age of Suckmar.

On a completely unrelated note, I now have 3k+ points of Tomb Kings for sale...

A company treats you and your purchases like crud. So you spend more money with the same company yet rejecting other wargames and ideas.
There's the attitude GW love in the hhhobby.

Not very fair. Gw is a business, and needs to prioritize the salability of it's products, rather than the availability of ranges that never got out the red. If it was any other business dropping a line that never recovered its development costs, they wouldn't be criticized for it. I know it could be argued that better rules would have sold more models and I don't disagree, but, as a tk collector myself, I don't blame them for dropping the range to focus on more profitable ranges.

Thing is, there's nothing stopping them moving this stuff to demand only with a 2 week lead time. With another year of declining sales they'd have the capacity to pull out a mold and cast it in down time. Or they could let someone else do them under license and take a profit for doing nothing.

Reducing the breadth of your offerings is rarely a good thing especially when you're having customer recruitment /retention problems

Maybe they'll do a classics range?

On demand with metal and resin casts is one thing, doing it with plastic is another, especially with the amount they would have to produce. The time taken changing the plates, casting, packaging etc would take production time away from much more profitable lines. Plus then the amount they would have to make, they'd be sat on 99 boxes for the sake of the one they sold. They are expanding the line, but need to create space, both on the shelves and the production schedule. They are a volume retailer now, they aren't interested in chasing after on off sales like that. Like I've said, a bitter pill to swallow for some, but objectively they are making the right decision, especially as they still have an undead army on the shelves.

They are a volume retailer with a volume that is declining Year-On-Year.

I get that there's difficulties with changing the plastic molds (I've no idea how few stamps you could justify), and obviously the metal/resin molds will need recut from time to time, with a trade off on volume.

But that's just another glaring flaw with GW's aim of using high-volume plastic injection for low volume products.

Take Wargames Foundry - all metal, but you can still buy more or less anything they've ever made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JamesY wrote:
@allseeingskink in fairness, this is only the second army to be dropped in gw's 40 odd years.

From memory they've dropped:

Fantasy:
Slann
Chaos Dwarfs
Dogs Of War
Empire*
Bretonnians*
Tomb Kings

40K:
Squats
Sisters Of Battle*


*Not officially squatted, but unsupported and will an increasing range of OOP models.

Slann aren't an army, chaos dwarfs still exist and have a decent range and rules, dogs of war were intended as allied units rather than a stand alone army. The rest are still supported at present.

Also, holding on desperately to lines that don't sell goes hand in hand with declining sales.

It's disingenuous to say that Chaos Dwarfs still exist; they dont' even have AoS warscrolls and are only provided by FW.

Ditto for the rest of them; they are only supported in that they have some temporary scrolls and a dwindling collection of mini's are still available (whilst stocks last). They haven't got any updates in years, and are likely to disappear completely at some point. They are in a limbo between being supported and being squatted.

Diversification is never a bad thing unless you're overextending yourself. So whilst I'd never recommend they waste more money producing new stuff for these unsupported armies, or wasting shelf space in the brick and mortar stores, the cost to keep selling them from the webstore is minimal; it's just the cost of storing the molds (retooling the rubber occasionally) and the cost of actually casting them up (there's no reason they couldn't make them on-demand and stick 20% onto the cost to cover the overhead). Since their volume is dropping by at least 5% every year, they must have an increasing amount of empty storage space and casting down time. They also don't even need fancy packaging as they often provide stuff in plain white boxes.


Part of the appeal with GW has always been in support - it stays around for a long time and anything you buy is still usable in game, so whilst it's expensive it's justified in the long term. Squatting entire armies goes directly against that and will put off more purchases than it potentially saves them in inventory. How many people will be avoid starting a new army incase it gets squatted on them, again?

Like I said, there would be dozens of smaller mini's companies willing to pay GW a pretty penny for the molds/masters in order to keep producing them. I believe they got a lot of offers for the Specialist Games stuff when they went away last time. They could outsource it to some guy in a shed, keep the good will and some of the money, and have literally no down sides. But GW has recently been pretty focused on control and short termism.