Hey folks,

I was wondering what ideas people had given the new formations and rules.

My opinion is that overall, we really haven't moved on the power scale. Are Wulfen better than TWC- maybe in some situations, maybe not in others- but we already had that niche covered. Free Pods for Russ- yeah, maybe its good, but pods dont really shoot, and a 6+ FNP really doesnt make us more resilient and Blood Claws are a point drain and certainly don't help shootwise either. The IronWolves seem decent as well, but nothing compared to the SM double demi (who have Grav tech and get free transports), Eldar, Crons, Tau etc.

Yes, I think we now have more tools against KDK, especially with the counter charge change.

So overall my feelings are that the Blackmane and IronWolves formations are decent for basement games or mid tier armies, but they don't have enough resiliency or firepower to combat the top 4 armies.
Fear, Furious Charge and Counter Charge are all based around close combat- but if we can't get into cc, they are useless- and even if we do, would the outcome be much different than it was without those abilities- it seems like Thunderwolves did just fine without them. SW have always done fairly well against CC armies, and in this case GW upped the ante a bit, but really did nothing to combat the issues we have against the other new armies. Counter Charge- what shooty army is going to assault us? I mean really. Yes, if we are playing against Orks or Khorne, yes, against just about all others armies, its a waste. Heck +1 to BC's WS and BS would have yielded better results. To make matters worse, they decided to slap a BC tax on all the formations, which would be okay if they werent just a poor mans objective camper.

The books has been out for a few days, and certainly people have had access to the formations now for a week, yet not a single army list has appeared on Dakka and no one has posted a tactica thread. When Tau dropped you had army list after army list posted and it is my opinion, the tougher or more broken a codex or its formations are, the more lists you will see around trying to take advantage of said bonuses.

So why nothing for the wolves?

So my feelings are really mixed. Ulrik is a beautiful model in my opinion as is the Iron Priest. The Wulfen box Ill probably use as bits, but I don't feel any sort of compulsion to go out and buy the new books at all, and this is coming from a guy who has played SW for 20 years and has a huge collection of models.

I am interested in what other Space Wolf players have to say about them.

Get a bunch of wolves on wolves with a wolf lord on a wolf + wolves with a curse of a wolf, add fillers and allies to make your wolves wolfier and run across the board. That's it.

I have to agree in that I don't have an overwhelming desire to go buy the new Wulfen models outside of maybe picking bits from ebay, but then again I held on to my 20 some odd Wulfen from Eye Of Terror so it's not like I'm without models.

My feelings may not be wholly what you're looking for because I'm not overly competitive, but I'll put out my initial feelings. I don't think any of the named Great Companies allow for the same amount of competitiveness you could get out of free-forming a SW army CAD style. For better or worse my personal SW army is in Firehowler heraldry just because I liked it the most, and I definitely wish their Great Company rules were better, but I'll more than likely still try the list out for fun.

The benefit of having a Great Company, named or not for that Counter-Charge though. Put that in the right hands and Im sure that could be amazing.

I wish Firehowlers were better too. I've had Sven Bloodhowl built for a while now but their rules just aren't great. Sad.

As to competitive builds...the new formations didn't give us much to work with. I think the winners are the Ironwolves and the Blackmanes because of free points. The Ironwolves can spam Land Speeders with HB/AC in squadrons of three for 150 points. That is 9 HB and 12 AC shots per squadron on a platform that can move 12" and flat out 30" (18" for being a fast skimmer, 6" for grav upwash and 6" for Ironwolves). Multiply that squadron by 4 and you're putting out some serious firepower. You can cover your AT needs with razorbacks since their weapons are free you can spam las/plas or twin las coupled with free HK missiles. You can also make super RBs by giving them all dozer blades, extra armor and storm bolters. I think my 1850 list came out to 2300ish points.

For competitive builds wolves really did not get anything, if anything we got weaker with Iron Priests now being HQs.

The only redeemable formation may be the murderpack, but that is still iffy, since they would need to be near the TWC to be any use and they are not that fast.

I concur, SW didn't really get much in the way of competitive lists, They got more options, but outside of things like murderpacks there are very few that are actually competitive upgrades.

Even murderpack is situational at best due to the heavy focus on shooting and the lack of time needed to play armies that require full games to be played with all the assault phases packed full of rolling dice.

oz of the north wrote:
For competitive builds wolves really did not get anything, if anything we got weaker with Iron Priests now being HQs.

The only redeemable formation may be the murderpack, but that is still iffy, since they would need to be near the TWC to be any use and they are not that fast.

From reading the WD, Iron Priests can still be used as an elite, you just use the older profile

It says that in the WD, but I did not see that in the wulfen book itself. So unless they FAQ it I am not sure if that will stand.

It actually says the opposite in the wulfen book lol. Specifically says it replaces it.

I dunno, I feel like the extra stats for minimal points on the new Iron priest makes it worth it for the HQ slot, especially if you were looking to take wulfen anyway.

Yeah the WD thing makes it debatable, I would advise to err on the side of making them HQ just to not rustle anyone's jimmies.

But I think the intent is to allow both, and really, why not be able to have HQ and Elite techmarines, they have different stats and all, one is a leader tech, one is a regular tech.

I am looking forward to the extra wound myself.

But in terms of competition value, I hate to say it, but counts as battle companies are still the SW best pick :(

I guess I was hoping for "more" somehow- I really wanted something akin to the original 13th company list. Long Fangs with special weapons (not heavy) that could teleport around with Rune Priests, big packs of wolves, bikes (I started a bike squad of 10 bikes back when that original list was published and was actually hoping to get them back on the table). I didn't want a Storm Surge or Wraithknight instant win button, and I was willing to lose to the big 3 more often than not, but I just feel like no real thought went into the game development side on this. I think a great formation bonus would have been to allow outflanking units to assault the turn they came in and have it restricted to certain units in certain formations. I am tired of Tau and Eldar being able to obliterate half your army before you cross the board and with Tau you can't even deep strike in without worry of losing your models.

The IronWolves is pretty lame, I mean free weapon upgrades on vehicles? That's what SW are known for? Speeders? Unless they are planning on changing the assault rules soon, I just can't fathom how the game designers could finish all those Tau formations/units that are ungodly (and before that Eldar), with fear and furious charge and think "yeah, that should put them on par with the rest of the armies"

there is that one big pack of wolves formation, which is a nice boost, it lets you combine 2-5 wolf units, give all the wolves in the unit +1 atk, monster hunter / outflank, and lets you choose which table side to come on from if one wolf is within 12" of that edge.

not bad if you were taking a bunch already I guess?

If you could attack from outflank, yeah, that would be great, but remember, the wolves are still t4 with an armor save of 6+, I mean even bolters will lay waste to them, and with a footprint that big they will always strike last in CC as they will go through terrain.

If you're talking competitive play and don't care about fluff you can make an interesting list using the Wolfkin formation with DA allies.

40 Fenrisian Wolves
Azrael (gives them rapid maneuver and a 4++) (DA CAD)
Void Shield Generator (DA CAD)
WGBL with wulfen stone

Massive board control and that unit is putting out 160 S5 attacks on the charge or 120 if you're multi-charging. The VSG makes you invulnerable to S5 or below small arms fire until it's dealt with and then you have a 4++ to fall back on.

Is it game breaking? Probably not...but it is an interesting build nonetheless.

Dang- my message went into the warp-

Crouching Lictor- yeah that isn't me. I don't use allies and prefer to play straight codex vs codex. I am also not a fan of buying terrain for armies. We use plenty of it on the board, but nothing like the void shields and all those things.

On a side note, I put a list I am working on up in the 40k armies, I would appreciate everyones thoughts- and I had some questions in there too.

Thanks-

Nothing wrong with that at all. When I play casual games I usually stick to a single codex. Tournaments...all bets are off when you're facing some of the grossness out there. Thanks to the LVO results I'm going to be fighting against warp spider spam for the foreseeable future. Great...

As much as I hate to say it I am thinking wulfen + Da for solid first turn charges. Attach sammael or Azrael, get bonus run as well as run and charge

No offense Leth, but that's just the kind of stuff that makes my stomach turn and has me headed away from 40k after almost 25 years. People build tournament lists like Magic Decks. Gimmick A trumps Gimmick B, but C can beat either if X,Y and Z happens. There is no fluff anymore as represented by the game itself- its been mangled and destroyed this past edition. GW has opened the flood gates to a no holds barred system that can make them the most profit possible and we as gamers have gobbled up it until now alot of folks are realizing we went too far and 40k isnt 40k anymore.

Its like the new Wulfen formations- and this is one of the questions I posed in my army list. So, the restrictions for the formation is you have to include enough dedicated transports to embark all non-vehicle model. Okay great. Now let's look at the units possible-

Blood Claws
Terminators

Scouts- wait a minute, they can't take a dedicated transport
Lone Wolves- wait a minute, they can't take a dedicated transport.

So, has GW really gotten that bad that they say, here are the units you can take to represent the IronWolves Great Company, yet you really can't take them because of the restriction they put on the Great Company? Now, I will admit that I dont much fool around with all these formations and allies and all that- so maybe, just maybe, it is possible to take a SW CAD and include 2 drop pods as FA, then give those to the scouts and lone wolves so they have a ride and all is good- but somehow I think GW just messed up. And if GW could mess up on something that easy, I mean that's a no brainer, what does it tell you about their writers? Personally, I think alot of these guys have no idea what 40k started as, and quite possibly they have never even played.

Sorry for the rant- I just can't seem to fathom how Tau could have had codex, supplement, supplement, and now another supplement next month with game breaking formations and GW can't even get a major rule right in the SW supplement.

Although it doesn't seem like it, I am trying to find the good here, it just doesn't seem to stand out.

sturguard wrote:
No offense Leth, but that's just the kind of stuff that makes my stomach turn and has me headed away from 40k after almost 25 years. People build tournament lists like Magic Decks. Gimmick A trumps Gimmick B, but C can beat either if X,Y and Z happens. There is no fluff anymore as represented by the game itself- its been mangled and destroyed this past edition. GW has opened the flood gates to a no holds barred system that can make them the most profit possible and we as gamers have gobbled up it until now alot of folks are realizing we went too far and 40k isnt 40k anymore.

Its like the new Wulfen formations- and this is one of the questions I posed in my army list. So, the restrictions for the formation is you have to include enough dedicated transports to embark all non-vehicle model. Okay great. Now let's look at the units possible-

Blood Claws
Terminators

Scouts- wait a minute, they can't take a dedicated transport
Lone Wolves- wait a minute, they can't take a dedicated transport.

So, has GW really gotten that bad that they say, here are the units you can take to represent the IronWolves Great Company, yet you really can't take them because of the restriction they put on the Great Company? Now, I will admit that I dont much fool around with all these formations and allies and all that- so maybe, just maybe, it is possible to take a SW CAD and include 2 drop pods as FA, then give those to the scouts and lone wolves so they have a ride and all is good- but somehow I think GW just messed up. And if GW could mess up on something that easy, I mean that's a no brainer, what does it tell you about their writers? Personally, I think alot of these guys have no idea what 40k started as, and quite possibly they have never even played.

Sorry for the rant- I just can't seem to fathom how Tau could have had codex, supplement, supplement, and now another supplement next month with game breaking formations and GW can't even get a major rule right in the SW supplement.

Although it doesn't seem like it, I am trying to find the good here, it just doesn't seem to stand out.

Yep, and I would only do it for tournaments at the larger level. Never local or at small events.

 Leth wrote:
As much as I hate to say it I am thinking wulfen + Da for solid first turn charges. Attach sammael or Azrael, get bonus run as well as run and charge

Though does the ability to run and charge pass to Sammael or Azrael. Usually models move at speed of slowest model, so they may get far run, but cannot charge. Since a independant character can only leave a unit during the movement phase, so the wulfen would be stuck going at sam/az's speed which is no run and charge.

So are the wolves that bad competitively that if you remove TWC and allies- they have nothing with the new stuff?

sturguard wrote:
So are the wolves that bad competitively that if you remove TWC and allies- they have nothing with the new stuff?

If you remove allies and TWC, wolves having nothing even close to competitive.

You could probably argue that about a lot of armies though. That's like saying take away an Imperial Knight and allies and Mechanicus armies aren't competitive; or saying take away Tzeentch daemons and Daemons aren't competitive.

It's not a knock on your observation Oz, I'd just say it doesn't really make us any better or worse than other competitive armies that could fold if they didn't have certain choices.

But to the point, yeah, TWC are still a near necessity.

Gremore- to an extent but, if you removoe the Wraithknight from Eldar are they still competitive? How about Grav Cents from Marines (they dont need them for the double demi company) or the Storm Surge (I would think Tau can make due nicely with plain old Riptides or crisis suits).

Again, I wasnt referring to beating the Top 3-4 armies. Even with TWC I dont see SW on par with Eldar, Tau, SM, DA or Necrons (Decurion). I think in NOVA they placed way way down the list. My point was, if we are playing in a competitive tournament without those, and we don't want to use TWC, is there anything else we have going for us?

The Blackmanes have amazing alphastrike ability. I'm tweaking a list with the Blackmanes, Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and Skyhammer Annihilation Force. I know you don't like allies but there are very few pure armies out there anymore.

oz of the north wrote:

 Leth wrote:
As much as I hate to say it I am thinking wulfen + Da for solid first turn charges. Attach sammael or Azrael, get bonus run as well as run and charge

Though does the ability to run and charge pass to Sammael or Azrael. Usually models move at speed of slowest model, so they may get far run, but cannot charge. Since a independant character can only leave a unit during the movement phase, so the wulfen would be stuck going at sam/az's speed which is no run and charge.

Actually so the thing is that now you have independent movements its not at the speed of the slowest model. A bike in a unit can still move 12.

Second the run and charge is simply a rule not a "Special Rule" as they have their special rules listed in a specific section in their profile. As such it is not subjected to the "special rule" restriction in the IC section. While this may seem like a stretch it is infact not as we have been using the same logic for things like nartheciums. The wording is the same.

I'm not sold by any of the formations, but I think running the Wulfen out of an escape hatch will be a very effective tactic. The hatch will extend their threat range in the first turn and help them survive the first turn if you're going 2nd.

crouching lictor wrote:
The Blackmanes have amazing alphastrike ability. I'm tweaking a list with the Blackmanes, Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and Skyhammer Annihilation Force. I know you don't like allies but there are very few pure armies out there anymore.

I'm with this guy.

The Blackmanes have promise but I have two issues with the formation.

1. Blood Claws are a tax of 180 pts (3 min squads) so you could essentially buy almost 6 pods without them. Basically they are just objective grabbers, you really can't do much more with them, especially in a competitive arena and any competitive list will have the firepower or cc ability to wipe them off an objective when they want to.

2. Scouts- SW scouts suck. They are overpriced and can't even have a transport so you are spending close to another 100 pt tax, so now you are up to almost 9 free pods.

3, Ragnar sucks. Now, if Ragnar was a heavy hitter and could handle dedicated CC brutes on his own, okay, take the BC's and now they get their rerolls and BCs arent bad. But Ragnar is a middle of the road guy and isnt worth his points.

What you really want to do is take 10 man Grey Hunter squads with 2 plasmaguns or meltaguns- but you cant' because the points just wont allow you to do that in 1500-1850. If Long Fangs were relentless in this formation when they dropped in a pod, it would go a long way towards helping out (since the BCs cant shoot and only have 1 special weapon)- but they cant- so if you pod them, everyone gets a chance to kill them before they do any shooting, if you set them on the board and your opponent goes first, you either hide them (in which case they dont shoot, or they get killed, in which case they dont shoot).

I think they just came close, but didn't think it through, honestly I know GW doesn't really go through the process of "hey, nothing in here can stand up to a good Tau or Eldar list, do we care?"

Except you can have 4 blood claw + a pack leader with a flamer combi flamer for peanuts. So really that is your load out for them since it doesn't matter they get 1 weapon per 10 because you min maxing and the template weapons mitigate their BS. Next turn charge a tank with MB on that leader.

As for long fangs, your forgeting they have a min of 2 guys! Upgrade the regular to a pack leader and again you can have a drop pod with two guys sporting a combi + special and MB's.

Those two options are arguably better then taking 10 man hunter squads since they achieve two things better.

1. MSU

2. They are way less expensive.

Wolf scouts are the same thing as well, special + combi on a pack leader.

also note that ragnar isn't mandatory like all great company's he can be swapped out for a battle leader. Just through him on a TW mount and ally in a CAD or wolves unleashed for TWC and add him to that unit.

It would be tough for anyone to handle an MSU alpha like that AND a mini wolf star.

You can nitpick every unit to death all day long. Get some games in and see what you can do tactically to win. SW are not a easy button win army. You're going to need allies to make up for whatever weakness you have, depending on what approach you take with them. If you need the SW version of easy win then you're looking at TWC heavy lists. If you really want it to be optimized you take DA, BA and/or WS allies.

Switching gears to tactics...

Using allies...take Stern or Hector Rex to get Sanctuary and give your TH/SS wulfen a 2++. Stern is the better choice since he won't perils on a double and he's decent in combat. You will lose the ability to sweep though since he's in terminator armor.

Lictor- I'm not nitpicking, I feel like I am making a pretty fair evaluation- there's a reason no one takes blood claws. On the other hand, I get what you are saying. Honestly, I just dont believe in allies or fortifications, its just not something I would ever use- heck if I have made the past year plus not adding a knight or dev cents into my SW force, I don't think you'll ever see me change in that respect.

I am actually trying to create a list in the Army List area but have no responses. I want to start with a IronWolf list and was trying to figure out how to get some Wulfen into it and the Rune Priest convocation. I am still trying to figure out if they are worth it or not. You figure you need 5 levels of psychic powers, so 2 level 2's and 1 level 1, then maybe some termie armor or bike for the one level 2 and durfasts helmet- all that will run you around 270 pts. In exchange you get on avg 14 str 7 shot, 2 6's, reroll misses, 1 more 6, so around 18 total str 7 hits (I think ap -). Now is that worth the price of a Land Raider and how do you protect them? Also, you still have to get the power off, with 5 dice plus d6 you should have enough dice but it is WC3 so your chances of perils is decent, even passing on a 3+ you probably have to toss 6 dice at it to be safe. Of course you will also encounter armies that will be able to negate it as they have some many dispel dice. Of course the other option is Njal plus 2 level 1's- I think he can reroll the dice but you are going to pay more and you dont get the helm, which I think is pretty important since it is effectively giving you another 4-5 hits. I dont mind bringing my list ideas into this forum, but I was hoping to discuss in the proper place.


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 Red Corsair wrote:
Except you can have 4 blood claw + a pack leader with a flamer combi flamer for peanuts. So really that is your load out for them since it doesn't matter they get 1 weapon per 10 because you min maxing and the template weapons mitigate their BS. Next turn charge a tank with MB on that leader.

As for long fangs, your forgeting they have a min of 2 guys! Upgrade the regular to a pack leader and again you can have a drop pod with two guys sporting a combi + special and MB's.

Those two options are arguably better then taking 10 man hunter squads since they achieve two things better.

1. MSU

2. They are way less expensive.

Wolf scouts are the same thing as well, special + combi on a pack leader.

also note that ragnar isn't mandatory like all great company's he can be swapped out for a battle leader. Just through him on a TW mount and ally in a CAD or wolves unleashed for TWC and add him to that unit.

It would be tough for anyone to handle an MSU alpha like that AND a mini wolf star.

Red Corsair, thanks for your input. Again, I wouldnt call myself the most experienced player, but isnt the point of an alpha strike to essentially destroy part of your enemy's forces before they have a chance to react? What weapons are you going to be using to destroy those force? A few flamers, a special weapon in 2 long fang squads and a few plasma pistols in an over priced wolf scout squad and the rest bolters? That was kind of my point, sure you drop down, take a few pot shots, then lose alot more through the enemy fire (and again I am referring to playing against competitive eldar, tau and necron lists). Blood Claws dont have enough teeth in close combat, nor in shooting so you are paying for an objective baby sitting squad. That's why I feel that if they had just given Long Fangs special weapons (which would have fallen right in line with the 13th company) your tactic might be sound. Drop down 2 full squads of long fangs with melta or plasma and have some fun. Let the scouts go OBEL and again, they arent bad. As it is, without allies, I dont think SW have the shooting to really alpha strike. If you want to use allies, then probably or other HQs.

Now, I was thinking IronWolf- and dropping in pods with deathstorm missiles and homing beacons and really not caring if the BC's got killed. I was also thinking of somehow dropping Wulfen in Pods and adding in the Void Claw Termie formation. So you have like 2 squads of Wulfen, the 5 Void Claws and maybe a Murderfang drop in, then have Lone Wolves in terminator armor dropping in turn 2 using the drop pod homing beacons.

Wolves unleash detachment still valid correct?

It's still the best formation for competitive SW play if taking IP as HQs

I would still say the CotGW is still by far the most competitve option wolves have. With wulfen filling the required elites choices.


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This new detatchment may bode well for competitve wolves

I think the main issue is that for any detachment, you are looking at 5-12 mandatory infantry units before adding any toys. In a minimum list, that is still going to run 600-900 points before adding anything "cool". That is half of your points in an 1850 list.

Conversely, I can fill my minimum requirement in an Eldar war host in about 350 points.

To top it off, the bonus for going all SW tends to be furious charge, and the new counter charge. Furious charge is somewhat redundant, since you can get it from a formation or from a roll from the wolfen, so the main thing is countercharge.

Countercharge is highly situational. You need another unit, unengaged, in range, that you want to plow in. Sure, I could see screening a unit of wolfen or thunder wolves with blood claws, but again the differing speeds screw everything up.

Right now the only good uses are free pods or free tank upgrades. I'd love to have a massive outflanking list, but the units that do so just don't carry enough weight. I'd be hard pressed to take on a Ad Mech force with a knight, for example.

Then there is the further insult that our Dreds still haven't been brought to parity with the normal SM nor has helfrost, our stand in for grav, been made more widely available.

But we have a 20 point pistol on one HQ! Plus a single Helfrost hammer for the same HQ! At least our Scouts were fixed.....oh wait a second.

In terms of the new formations and such I think they're a good set for more casual play but not great for all out competitiveness.

oz of the north wrote:
I would still say the CotGW is still by far the most competitve option wolves have. With wulfen filling the required elites choices.


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This new detatchment may bode well for competitve wolves

Depends on how you play it I guess, yes if you want Wulfens to be the main Elite support for the death star. But look at the current winning Thunder dome death star list, which contains IP, DA BKs, and Sammael or Azrael. On a efficiency/flexibility standpoint, I think Black knights got wulfens beat in a long shot, TL Plasma talons, 3+++ jink, FNP for whole unit thanks to the Apoth. The wulfens you have to invest a lot to make them survivable, pretty much no shooting, and not as mobile compared to bikes.

I have a few thoughts:

Heralds of the Great Wolf:
- core unit of a Wolf Star, IWND and Reroll and -1BS; 2+ LoS.

Ancients of the Fang:
- protect Bjorn w/ 3+ SS Vet(s)
- smash stuff w/ Reroll Hits
- IWND & Repairs
- Stubborn (meh)

Wyrdstorm Brotherhood:
- Rune Priests in every squad
- massively smash squadrons/V.S.'s
- reliable Psyker usage

Greatpack:
- why only "IC's from this formation", only -1- unit outflank?...

Champions of Fenris:
- longfangs relentless, plasma weapons too

Blackmanes:
- free pods, only count for so much W/O ObjSec.
- arriving on first turn -does- help the Counter-Charge, however...

Deathwolves:
- outflanking all, cute. Interesting in objectives based games.

Iron Wolves:
- first turn assault potential, if but only for terminators
- haha to take lone wolves, is it enough to "have capacity" or does one need legitimate capability to embark which needs a FA drop pod from another detachment?

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
I would still say the CotGW is still by far the most competitve option wolves have. With wulfen filling the required elites choices.


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This new detatchment may bode well for competitve wolves

Depends on how you play it I guess, yes if you want Wulfens to be the main Elite support for the death star. But look at the current winning Thunder dome death star list, which contains IP, DA BKs, and Sammael or Azrael. On a efficiency/flexibility standpoint, I think Black knights got wulfens beat in a long shot, TL Plasma talons, 3+++ jink, FNP for whole unit thanks to the Apoth. The wulfens you have to invest a lot to make them survivable, pretty much no shooting, and not as mobile compared to bikes.

What does Sammael provide for this unit? I have a lack of knowledge of Sammael. I know Azrael provides unit wide 4++, fearless, +3 to run/turbo, +3 to charge, and+1 to Seize the Init (which is nice for a deathstar that scouts up and doesn't want to take 2 turns of shooting instead of 1).

MekLeN wrote:
Iron Wolves:
- first turn assault potential, if but only for terminators
- haha to take lone wolves, is it enough to "have capacity" or does one need legitimate capability to embark which needs a FA drop pod from another detachment?

You can't take scouts or LW in IW because it has to be a dedicated transport.

 pretre wrote:

MekLeN wrote:
Iron Wolves:
- first turn assault potential, if but only for terminators
- haha to take lone wolves, is it enough to "have capacity" or does one need legitimate capability to embark which needs a FA drop pod from another detachment?

You can't take scouts or LW in IW because it has to be a dedicated transport.

Yet GW lists both options in the formation. Could they really be that sloppy and uncaring about their work? I mean it isnt a misspelled word or typo- it isn't a RAW vs RAI issue, its plain as day- these are the units you can take, nope you cant take scouts or lone wolves, even though we just listed them as part of the force.

I am no expert on how formations works or detachments, or allies but couldnt you simply take a pod from another detachment and assign it to the scouts or Lone Wolf before the game starts? Or are they really to the point where they dont know their own rules anymore?

sturguard wrote:

 pretre wrote:

MekLeN wrote:
Iron Wolves:
- first turn assault potential, if but only for terminators
- haha to take lone wolves, is it enough to "have capacity" or does one need legitimate capability to embark which needs a FA drop pod from another detachment?

You can't take scouts or LW in IW because it has to be a dedicated transport.

Yet GW lists both options in the formation. Could they really be that sloppy and uncaring about their work? I mean it isnt a misspelled word or typo- it isn't a RAW vs RAI issue, its plain as day- these are the units you can take, nope you cant take scouts or lone wolves, even though we just listed them as part of the force.

I am no expert on how formations works or detachments, or allies but couldnt you simply take a pod from another detachment and assign it to the scouts or Lone Wolf before the game starts? Or are they really to the point where they dont know their own rules anymore?

A pod purchased that way isn't dedicated.

Saythings wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
I would still say the CotGW is still by far the most competitve option wolves have. With wulfen filling the required elites choices.


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This new detatchment may bode well for competitve wolves

Depends on how you play it I guess, yes if you want Wulfens to be the main Elite support for the death star. But look at the current winning Thunder dome death star list, which contains IP, DA BKs, and Sammael or Azrael. On a efficiency/flexibility standpoint, I think Black knights got wulfens beat in a long shot, TL Plasma talons, 3+++ jink, FNP for whole unit thanks to the Apoth. The wulfens you have to invest a lot to make them survivable, pretty much no shooting, and not as mobile compared to bikes.

What does Sammael provide for this unit? I have a lack of knowledge of Sammael. I know Azrael provides unit wide 4++, fearless, +3 to run/turbo, +3 to charge, and+1 to Seize the Init (which is nice for a deathstar that scouts up and doesn't want to take 2 turns of shooting instead of 1).

Hes 15pt cheaper, on a jet bike with plasma cannon, AP2 sword, eternal warrior, +3" run,turbo, charge. Depending on the meta, if your facing a lot of AP2 or 3 shots with ignore cover, then Azrael might be a better choice even tho he's footslogging.

So does anyone have any ideas on how to equip wulfen? I got twenty to work with and I will be facing at least three wraithknights in my next tournament so I know I need some great axes.

You are gonna want thunderhammer/storm shields.

str 10 and get to strike even if killed.

wulfen in combat are the anti wraithknight IMO

 pretre wrote:

MekLeN wrote:
Iron Wolves:
- first turn assault potential, if but only for terminators
- haha to take lone wolves, is it enough to "have capacity" or does one need legitimate capability to embark which needs a FA drop pod from another detachment?

You can't take scouts or LW in IW because it has to be a dedicated transport.

I would say the RAI is: units that can take dedicated transports have to, and it must be big enough to carry them all. So no Razorback for 10-man squads, So scouts would be fine....if someone would ever want them in the first place

But the Ironwolf still isn't worth it. The special rules may be neat, but you are usually only using one of them. I.e. moving 12" and dismbarking means no shooting with your free weapons. And Rhinos and Land Raiders that are most suited for disembarking from don't have any cool upgrades. And a bunch of speeders plus some min BCs in Razorbacks are nearly as unfluffy as allying in DA witches into your TWC units.

Oh, and no TWC in the formation, Good luck fitting them in after your mandatory auxiliary if you want more than min squads.

We got a full suplement with lots of formations, but my tournament list won't change a single bit. I might include a squad of Wulfen when I have painted them, but not because they will improve my list. I think it will stay on the same level, just with something new for a change. That's somehow sad, so much wasted potential.

I even have a squad of BCs in my list and run only 1 small squad of TWC without allies and no IPs, but even for this kind of tame lists the new formations don't add anything. For heaven's sake, I use termies and WG on bikes as my mandatory Elites and still the supplement offers nothing that's better!

PS: the fact the Long Fangs are mandatory is also a downer for me, but thats probably because my bad luck with them. The only meaningful shooting they had done last tournament was killing a Soulgrinder in turn 1. They didn't kill anything else...apart from a BA biker librarianin after 5 player turns of melee

How effective would an aircraft focused SW force be? Terminators, grey hunters, a scout squad, a couple drop pods with guys attempting to clear ground based AA,, a caestus(just because) and most things not starting on the board in the air craft with maybe a raptor flying around as air support? We usually play around the 2500 point level as standard.

Very tough in maelstrom games. Your podders are going to be relatively immobile and slow to cap objs once they land. Starting off the board in flyers gives up a few turns of capturing too.

Okay I got another question...

If I get two Wulfen Murderpack formations, do the effects stack? i.e. would I add +2 to the Curse of the Wulfen roll for every unit on the battlefield instead of +1?

 Lord Scythican wrote:
Okay I got another question...

If I get two Wulfen Murderpack formations, do the effects stack? i.e. would I add +2 to the Curse of the Wulfen roll for every unit on the battlefield instead of +1?

No. You get +1 for each unit beyond the first



Even if you have multiple WMP.


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So if you have two WMP with 2 units each, you would get +3 total.

It does affect non-WMP wulfen rolls though.

The real problem with murderpacks is:

1. Getting to assault
2. buffing Blood claws in assault

You are looking at 200 points for a unit of 5 with weapons, that need to be on the field within 12' of a bloodclaw pack at the start of your turn.

Again, you can't find a way to take advantage of this rule in anything under 2000 points. You could take a Blackmane list with murderpacks, and a CoF detachment with extra pods for the murderpacks, but that is still Turn 2 assault at best and means standing in front of the enemy for a turn.

Plus you have basically 85 marines walking around for the rest of the game, abandoning all strategic flexibility.

I agree. I've been trying to figure out how to make it work.

Unfortunately, I dont think much thought was put into this supplement, at least for the SWs- which is evidenced by the IronWolves not actually being able to take Scouts and Lone Wolves and that the decurion bonus is almost a cut and paste from the main codex (bonuses which no one took before the supplement, so why would they now).

The Wulfen rules are also not very well thought out. I mean no one takes BCs because they just arent very good. So if you are looking to buff them, why take the best roll on the table (which is bonus attacks, then remove BCs from that bonus because they already have rage? Not only that, the units that would be most viable- bikers and jump packs, really gain no benefits, no bonus attacks and they already have hammer of wrath. Give them the +1 attack on top of rage, I mean against any decent HtH unit, they are hitting on 4's instead of 3's. Having buffed bikes and jump pack BCs would have actually made them a bit more viable in Maelstrom games- but not terribly so, because if you are taking objectives, you arent going to always be in range of the wulfen. As it stands, you want to use GH's or WG near the wulfen because they can get the bonuses, yet, with a 6" range and the fact that all the formations incur a BC tax, means there really arent points for them.

I really hate being so negative, but there just doesn't seem alot to jump up and down about- and meanwhile the Tau are getting another formation next week?

Durandal wrote:
The real problem with murderpacks is:

1. Getting to assault
2. buffing Blood claws in assault

You are looking at 200 points for a unit of 5 with weapons, that need to be on the field within 12' of a bloodclaw pack at the start of your turn.

Again, you can't find a way to take advantage of this rule in anything under 2000 points. You could take a Blackmane list with murderpacks, and a CoF detachment with extra pods for the murderpacks, but that is still Turn 2 assault at best and means standing in front of the enemy for a turn.

Plus you have basically 85 marines walking around for the rest of the game, abandoning all strategic flexibility.

later this year the Mastadon will be perfect for getting 20 wulfen into assault.

Mastadon isnt in the SW codex and is an expensive FW piece.

sturguard wrote:
Mastadon isnt in the SW codex and is an expensive FW piece.

wait for the actual rules

There's the starter box for Wolves, which is a formation with no tax units depending on how you outfit everyone. I'd reckon running the Wulfen formation alongside 2-3 of those would be awesome.

Rerolling 1s to hit, or run+assault isn't really that helpful.

The wolfen already have the latter, and while more bolters are better, 2 extra hits isn't exactly game braking.

Nice for a pair of plasma guns though. Wulfen have run and charge but TWC don't. And it's TWC that get the run and charge.

The murderpack ability to allow a unit to move twice coupled with the run+assault for the TWC from that formation is super powerful. Those starter set rules are better than most things in the CotW release.

I think I've figured out the Lone Wolf / Scout thing in IronWolves:

"You must include enough dedicated transports with sufficient Transport Capacity to carry all non-vehicle models in this Formation."

The key words here: Transport Capacity.
I believe they're doing this for a fluff thing, rather than a strategy thing; that Iron Wolves all come to the field of battle having ridden something, that they are an armoured taskforce capable of high speeds between skirmishes.

Eh?


Also, I'm playing games with IronWolves and Wulfen...

-) Drop pod dual Wulfen squads (Formation) using fastattack pods from a CotgW (WGBL + 2 Servitors) and run the BC's with PowerAxes., in Razorbacks and two Speeders, the longfangs as 30pts in pod, and that's 1000pts.

Wulfen come in turn 1, your two WGBL come in via pod of longfangs (or in each Razorback). Mean list! (Wulfen with 3 great frost axe, 2 with SS+TH).

Better tho, as that's a 1k example of it in action, is 1500 list: Wolf Scouts x2 for elites instead of Servitors.
Scout/Infiltrate them as close as possible. Then, turn 2 they can count for the "engaged" models perfectly. I'm this list I go two Iron Priests w/ 4 wolves and the Hellfrost TH for the HQ of the CotgW. I'm not trying to spam lists for advice, but to show how this Tactic can be employed.

Push their sides with the two scout squads, push their front with the two bloodclaws (for turn 2, can move 6" disembark, having the Razorback screen for them, turn 2 assault) or flatout them screening wolfscouts and count on them being destroyed - if the opponent assaults anything, it'll cause everything to end up in CC on their turn (non-assault vehicles disallow Charges on our turns, says nothing of charges made on opponents turn hehe). Wulfen drop behind their lines, speeders shoot/flatout as best helpful.

2 wulfen, 2 scouts, 2 BC -- all wrapping their main lines. Turn 2 is going to be a lotta fun hehe.

So far it's worked out well, ruined a necron line with it - had really nothing left.

So: potential uses for these formations. Some thoughts on the rules of 'em.

What I am thinking might work well is mixing the murderpack with the starterbox formation. This can possibly be a devastating combination. With possibility of having multiple units charge first turn.

Forgot to add, that the Iron Priests can join the Wolf Scouts during deployment, and take advantage of the Scout move - they get 12" as long as they remain in coherency with the Scouts 6". Then, if the game dictates it necessary to protect your rear (like Drop Pod alphas) then keep the scouts behind and the cyberwolves ahead, and LoS 4+ off the wolves to the scouts to mitigate wounds if need be. Otherwise, simply move an additional 12" out of the unit of scouts during movement, and run forwards to be some 25"+ (yes, in their deployment zone) turn 1, shrink wrapping along with the Wulfen, who have their rear wrapped).

~ Denying them movement before shooting is incredible.

~ Discouraging them assaulting - because of Counter-Charge, awesome. Let them haha

Scouts can either also move forwards (in which case, maybe keep them in wolves?)
Or, they can head backfield for objectives along with speeders, longfangs droppod, and potentially your bloodclaws Razorbacks.

What side you don't swarm, you'll have Razorbacks and Speeders shooting / jinking.




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Yea, I agree. That's not a bad idea at all.

So, I've been trying to noodle lists...

I'm not sure that it isn't just better to go CAD:



You lose counter-charge, but gain Ob-sec.


Or blackmane



Of course, that's 9 pods and I don't own 9 pods.



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Or Ironwolves. It needs to be trimmed




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The CAD one is actually closest to what I want so far. I just haven't found one that I feel awesome about yet.

I played my Thunderdome list for the very first time yesterday in a ITC game(mission 1):

Wolves Unleash Det: 4 IPs on TWM with 6 cyberwolves and 2 GH in pods, CAD of Sammael with command squad, 2 scout squads in rhinos, and Lib conclave with Tiggy and 2 Lib Bikers.

It was against my friends very competitive list Eldar/Tau list. He had Riptide Wing with Ions, the Skathach WK with Lances, and spam a bunch of spiders and hawks.

Pretty much everything touched by the IP dies, the death star was very fast and those warp spiders can't out run them. Although I did make A LOT of potential game losing mistakes and failed a lot of critical rolls, still end up winning the game thanks to summoning a bunch of daemons every turn LOL (I got primary and tied on maelstrom).

A pure SW army is pretty garbage on its own in terms of competitive play... just sayin

Honestly, going for a couple of those Start Collecting formations, with a Murderpack doesn't save you much in the way of points, but gives you run + assault, in exchange for the +1 WS you would get running it as the Company of the Great Wolf (old CoF supplement formation).

Players choice, I imagine.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Honestly, going for a couple of those Start Collecting formations, with a Murderpack doesn't save you much in the way of points, but gives you run + assault, in exchange for the +1 WS you would get running it as the Company of the Great Wolf (old CoF supplement formation).

Players choice, I imagine.

You can't take multiples in ITC though.

For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

oz of the north wrote:
For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

Potentially. I've seen some lists with CotGW, Murderpack and Lib Conc that are pretty nasty.

 pretre wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

Potentially. I've seen some lists with CotGW, Murderpack and Lib Conc that are pretty nasty.

Not nasty enough I don't think, no Hit&Run meaning the star can get tar pitted by another invis unit or Lychstar, wraiths and etc.

With Wulfens you have to sink a lot points into them to make them survivable. If people think bringing conclave for invisibility alone is enough in ITC, they are surely mistaken.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 pretre wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

Potentially. I've seen some lists with CotGW, Murderpack and Lib Conc that are pretty nasty.

Not nasty enough I don't think, no Hit&Run meaning the star can get tar pitted by another invis unit or Lychstar, wraiths and etc.

With Wulfens you have to sink a lot points into them to make them survivable. If people think bringing conclave for invisibility alone is enough in ITC, they are surely mistaken.

Why do you say that they are mistaken? 7 rolls with rerolls with Tiggy; it isn't inconceivable. Most run that many roll attempts for their stars, or less. Only Seer Council gets more chances, really. Daemons get Belakor, sadly, we lost Seth Loth.

Saythings wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 pretre wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

Potentially. I've seen some lists with CotGW, Murderpack and Lib Conc that are pretty nasty.

Not nasty enough I don't think, no Hit&Run meaning the star can get tar pitted by another invis unit or Lychstar, wraiths and etc.

With Wulfens you have to sink a lot points into them to make them survivable. If people think bringing conclave for invisibility alone is enough in ITC, they are surely mistaken.

Why do you say that they are mistaken? 7 rolls with rerolls with Tiggy; it isn't inconceivable. Most run that many roll attempts for their stars, or less. Only Seer Council gets more chances, really. Daemons get Belakor, sadly, we lost Seth Loth.

What I meant is invisibility alone is not enough protection in ITC, you still need to have good saves. In ITC you can target invisible units with blasts and templates.

Tau marker lights, Helldrakes, anything S8 AP4 are some of the things that will ruin your day. Basically if you want your wulfen to survive, SS are a must which makes them 45 pts per model without weapon upgrades. Thats a lot of points for a infantry unit that can potentially move twice with the murder pack formation. I just don't think they are efficient enough to win in competitive game play.

Ahhh, okay. I misunderstood when you said bringing the conclave for invis wasn't enough. I read it as in "you probably won't get invis with the 3 psykers in a single conclave", not as "a single conclave with invis isn't enough protection".

Agreed. Invis might do the trick at Nova, but you'll definitely need a backup plan in ITC. Like Azrael for 4++ or Fortune for those rerolls, etc. (Obviously Fortune doesn't help SW players, haha! Aww, I made myself sad..)

Saythings wrote:
Ahhh, okay. I misunderstood when you said bringing the conclave for invis wasn't enough. I read it as in "you probably won't get invis with the 3 psykers in a single conclave", not as "a single conclave with invis isn't enough protection".

Agreed. Invis might do the trick at Nova, but you'll definitely need a backup plan in ITC. Like Azrael for 4++ or Fortune for those rerolls, etc. (Obviously Fortune doesn't help SW players, haha! Aww, I made myself sad..)

Yeah if you bring DA allies for H&R, +3" run/charge, and/or the unit wide 4++, you have to drop a formation since you can only have up to 3 formations in ITC/Nova.

Wolves unleash/CotGW are def required in order to spam Iron Priests.

So would you want to drop the murder pack or the conclave?

I'm toying with CotGW (4 IPs, 12 Wolves, 2x5 Wolf Guard on Bikes with 2 Wolf LCs on Sergs, FA Pod) // DA CAD (Chappy on Bike, 2x5 Scouts, Command Bikes, Azrael) // Culexus

Wolf Guard on bikes are what I'm toying with for Warp Spider hunting and a last ditch effort Wraithknight executioner.

Wolf guard bikes jink every turn. Don't shoot their TL Bolters and charge Warp Spiders. With WS5 and +1 Str and Shred, the serg kills 3 on averages and the rest of the squad has the fighting power to kill the rest.

In a pinch, they can even wound a Wraithknight with 3s to hit, 6s to wound, rerolls with shred and only a FnP saves striking at I4. It's not the worst thing.

My local meta has two Eldar Seer Council lists so I need answers to the Council, a WK, and 3x5 Spiders if I want a chance at the top tables. But my local might be a little more competitive than others. Haha.

Edit: Clarifications.

Saythings wrote:
I'm toying with CotGW (4 IPs, 12 Wolves, 2x5 Wolf Guard on Bikes with 2 Wolf LCs on Sergs, FA Pod) // DA CAD (Chappy on Bike, 2x5 Scouts, Command Bikes, Azrael) // Culexus

Wolf Guard on bikes are what I'm toying with for Warp Spider hunting and a last ditch effort Wraithknight executioner.

Wolf guard bikes jink every turn. Don't shoot their TL Bolters and charge Warp Spiders. With WS5 and +1 Str and Shred, the serg kills 3 on averages and the rest of the squad has the fighting power to kill the rest.

In a pinch, they can even wound a Wraithknight with 3s to hit, 6s to wound, rerolls with shred and only a FnP saves striking at I4. It's not the worst thing.

My local meta has two Eldar Seer Council lists so I need answers to the Council, a WK, and 3x5 Spiders if I want a chance at the top tables. But my local might be a little more competitive than others. Haha.

Edit: Clarifications.

12 cyber wolves with 4++ and FNP may be sufficient to protect the wolfstar without invisibility but like most lists with a BIG star, it has a low units count. In ITC/Nova missions that are more objective heavy, you might struggle because all your opponent has to do is avoid the deathstar and wipe out the rest of your army, thus can cause you to fall behind on maelstrom and primary if the opponent has more objsec units.

The WK will die to 4 IP, so don't worry about that as long you have some cyberwolves to tank all his attacks. The Seer council might be tricky because they can turbo boost out of harms way and go after your back field. Also without invis, your ICs are susceptible to Mind war and after he takes out Azrael and the DA apothecary, the deathstar will be severely weaken.

No doubt in my mind they will try all of that. I mean I don't expect them to sit around and do nothing. Every list has it's weaknesses. Of course once they kill my 4++ and my FNP, my wolfstar will slowly widdle away, that's why it's up to me to make that as difficult as possible.

New ITC missions are allowing you to roll up 3 Maelstroms and pick 2 of them. This is going to help killy deathstars a little bit for getting backfield objectives and hopefully a kill a unit or 2.

The Bikes are for hunting Warpspiders and I'll make a judgement call when to break off an IP to hunt a Warpspider squad. I was just telling everyone how I'm trying out the new codex (Elite to HQ IP change). I think the solo Servitors are just way to easy to kill for "Kill a Unit" or Kill Point games. Nova even has a secondary that is Kill Points that I'd rather not give away every game.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 pretre wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
For ITC events would wulfen be considered competitve?

Potentially. I've seen some lists with CotGW, Murderpack and Lib Conc that are pretty nasty.

Not nasty enough I don't think, no Hit&Run meaning the star can get tar pitted by another invis unit or Lychstar, wraiths and etc.

With Wulfens you have to sink a lot points into them to make them survivable. If people think bringing conclave for invisibility alone is enough in ITC, they are surely mistaken.

Lib conclave gets you H&R.

True, White Scars conclave does give you HnR. I believe it was an oversight since a lot of Wolfstars run with Tiggy for the greater chance of rolling up Invis!

3 rolls, rerolling and another reroll for doubles with Tiggy gives you a silly amount of chances to get Invis. Much better than 2 chances on each libby (x3).

Do any of you guys have the iPad version of the Space Wolves codex?

This supplement and this thread just makes me sad. Initially I was excited, but once I sat down to make lists and realized just how large a tax the Great Companies are and how disjointed they are with units that don't really work together being forced into one formation, it made me sad.

Countercharge would be great.... in a thunderwolf heavy list. Too bad they barely exist as far as this supplement goes.

I was hoping I could come in here and see someone has some amazing insight that I'm missing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

What's really amazing is how this is supposed to be a Space Wolves release, but it's a poor copy and paste job that didn't even update basics like the dreadnoughts and didn't add anything to the codex, yet Daemons got basically four new armies. Each god got artifacts, warlord traits, psychic tables, and the decurion and formations all have some great rules.

Looks like I'll keep my wolf list the same and on the shelf while I continue to enjoy playing daemons.

Sorry this wasn't helpful in any way and pretty much repeated whats beens aid already, but I just needed to vent a bit.

Wulfen need allies, such as DAs imo. Im considering a Mini wulfen star with Samuel, and the rest MSU bikers with Rune priests or Iron preists, havnt decided yet. The wulfen are deceptively quick, with a scout move, then as they are in the formation can potentially move twice or move an extra 6 inches from the move and run, plus another 3 inches for their run from samuels warlord trait. The unit could potentially move 27 inches and still assault! Thats pretty quick! They have Samuel to tank up the front, with a re rollable jink save, and Hit & run to keep them going!!

stewy37 wrote:
This supplement and this thread just makes me sad. Initially I was excited, but once I sat down to make lists and realized just how large a tax the Great Companies are and how disjointed they are with units that don't really work together being forced into one formation, it made me sad.

Countercharge would be great.... in a thunderwolf heavy list. Too bad they barely exist as far as this supplement goes.

I was hoping I could come in here and see someone has some amazing insight that I'm missing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

What's really amazing is how this is supposed to be a Space Wolves release, but it's a poor copy and paste job that didn't even update basics like the dreadnoughts and didn't add anything to the codex, yet Daemons got basically four new armies. Each god got artifacts, warlord traits, psychic tables, and the decurion and formations all have some great rules.

Looks like I'll keep my wolf list the same and on the shelf while I continue to enjoy playing daemons.

Sorry this wasn't helpful in any way and pretty much repeated whats beens aid already, but I just needed to vent a bit.

Well again your not going build a tier 1 list from this codex alone, not in the competitive meta. You will need to allied in other factions and formations to create good synergy, that is what so good about playing Imperials.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Well again your not going build a tier 1 list from this codex alone, not in the competitive meta. You will need to allied in other factions and formations to create good synergy, that is what so good about playing Imperials.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting to compete at the top with them, but I guess I'm frustrated with the lack of real options it gives you. Initially my response was "Whoah! Look at all the cool stuff!" Then, as I started to actually dig into it, I realized that the great packs are a 1500-2000 point tax, and then you aren't even able to bring any of the cool new formations along with it unless you're playing 2500 points or higher. So, if you want to take the Wyrdstorm Brotherhood or one of the other formations, your best bet is to add it to a CAD. Also, the greatpacks aren't that different from the core force I was taking already. They just require more basic choices and less of the really cool fun ones.

It is very strange for the wolves, that when things are getting ramped up with power creep. They get a super formation detachment that does not really offer anything. Also the formations are mediocre to terrible.

Yeah... the Formations cost a TON of tax.
I've been trying around with Iron Wolves lately, but after a few weeks and many games, i'm just kinda going back to my lists pre-Wulfen (tho including Wulfen hehe)

I don't really find that much of it to be tax. Some of it isn't great sure but it's not that bad. But that might just be my area.

The tax is mostly the blood claws, which just are not good.

oz of the north wrote:
The tax is mostly the blood claws, which just are not good.

Except when paired with Wulfen.

oz of the north wrote:
The tax is mostly the blood claws, which just are not good.

I don't mind them that much. Particuarly with the Deathwolves formation.

"Well again your not going build a tier 1 list from this codex alone, not in the competitive meta. You will need to allied in other factions and formations to create good synergy, that is what so good about playing Imperials. "

Why? Tau, Eldar, SM, DA, Necrons can? Sure DA, SM, and Necrons might only have one formation that can but Eldar and Tau have multiple lists. Was it so much to ask that SW players have a competitive build as well?

Pretre, why would you say Blood Claws are good with Wulfen? The best bonus +1 attack BC's can use because they have rage. The best Blood Claw units, Skyclaws or swiftclaws cant take advantage of hammer of wrath, not that a few str 4 hit and run rolls are going to do much, BCs arent good enough that folks are going to take 15 of them in a competitive game, so the basic 5 man squad really benefits nothing. Now, if they made all the bonuses stack with the BCs abilities, you might have seen more on the table.

I think GW almost scored a win with the IronWolves formation. If they had included predators as 0-3 in their formation and allowed them to upgrade for free (so 75 pt predators) you might have seen something semi competitive. It would also make sense as they have the advantage in tank shocking, right now what are you going to tank shock with a rhino or landspeeder?

Standard blood claws can get Reroll charge and how, dune strider or furious charge on hunt, Reroll wounds init 5 or hit when dead. None of that is bad for a 12 ot model. And that doesn't count the 7+ roll.

Again, a unit of 5 BCs, even on the charge is 20 attacks, hitting on 4's, 10 hits, most often wounding on 4's, 5, reroll 5, get 2.5 more. I understand what you are saying and in theory you'd think that's really good for 12 pts, but it isn't. Because they BCs have to be in range, you have to take a large squad of them and lets face it, if you are taking 10 BCs is it not really worth it to spend 20 more pts and get GHs with ws/bs 4 and 2 special weapons? Then on top of that you are spending close to 500 pts for those 2 wulfen squads (so you can get 7, not 7+). Again, I will say its disappointing. Go into the 40k army lists, youll see more Eldar and Tau lists since the Wulfen book dropped than SW lists. I tried to create a list, even on Warseer I had over 100 views and zero recommendations. On Warseer there is one army list besides mine with I think 1 response. If these new formations were broken (there would be a ton of lists) if they were creative where you could create some very tactical lists with neat tricks, there would be plenty of people posting- but at the end of the day there really isnt anything more than what the SW original dex and Champions of Fenris offer. Its still a pre 7th edition codex on the power scale, capable of playing with Dark Eldar, Nids, IG and such.

Oh I'm not saying it's eldar good, but it's cool and I'm going to try out some wulfen and bc shenanigans.

I've been having a lot of success with the Blackmanes paired with Ironwolves. Eldar still give me trouble but what do you expect from the top codex? Are you going to win LVO or Adepticon with SW? Probably not. If you're wanting to do that you play Eldar, Daemons, Tau or White Scars.

As far as feedback on your list, try the SW sub-forum on Bolter and Chainsword.

Here's what I'm going to be running this season:

Walking Wolves - Take 2



WCSF



Ironwolves Greatpack

WGBL with Black Death - 75

10 Blood Claws with Flamer in Rhino with Dozer, SB, HKM, EA - 160

(10 Blood Claws with Flamer in Rhino with Dozer, SB, HKM, EA - 160) or (20 Fenrisian Wolves in 2 packs, Wolfkin - 160)

9 Blood Claws with Flamer in Rhino with Dozer, SB, HKM, EA - 148

Land Speeder with Typhoon and HB - 50

10 Grey Hunters with Banner, Melta x2 and 6 CCW in Rhino with Dozer, SB, HKM, EA - 232

2 LF with Melta/Combi-Melta in Drop Pod with DWL/LB - 95



Murderpack

5 Wulfen with SFAL, Axe, TH/SS - 180

5 Wulfen with SFAL, Axe, PL with FC - 180





Deathpack

WL with TWM, PF/SS - 195

4 TWC with PF/BP, SS/BP, BP/CCW, SS/WC - 235

5 GH with Plasma, Combi-Plasma in Drop Pod - 140



1850

Quick question: is taking 2 HB Servitors in a COTGW detachment good for low points cost TWC Deathstar lists?

 Matthew wrote:
Quick question: is taking 2 HB Servitors in a COTGW detachment good for low points cost TWC Deathstar lists?

It is okay. Most of the time you want a cheap iron priest, but you can't use servitors to do that.

I was thinking of using them to fill out the 2 mandatory elites slots

If you're taking an Iron Priest in the detachment then the servitors will not count towards the required elites. If you're not taking an Iron Priest then you can use servitors to fill the required elites slots.

 Matthew wrote:
I was thinking of using them to fill out the 2 mandatory elites slots

You can certainly do that to get a WGBL or WL into another list.

Also, Look at the Deathpack as a good quick dip to get just good stuff.

col_impact wrote:
Do any of you guys have the iPad version of the Space Wolves codex?

Yea I do, how come?

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm not sold by any of the formations, but I think running the Wulfen out of an escape hatch will be a very effective tactic. The hatch will extend their threat range in the first turn and help them survive the first turn if you're going 2nd.

I think this is a pretty great idea to add to our pre existing lists, but otherwise I agree that the options are disappointing. Im thinking of selling the limited edition because its just a huge let down. I really don't see myself using anything besides murderpack and general wulfen.

The formations are definitely lack luster, I was foolishly hoping things like wolf scouts may get their BEL ability back as a formation bonus or at least something, maybe shrouded first turn? Anything really to make them worth their cost, its beyond stupid now that almost every other marine book (sorry blood angels) have the same unit in their troops but at a 3ppm discount with a sweet dedicated transport. Give us a storm at least lol.

Dark Angels don't get cool Land Speeder Storms either! This is an outrage!

I wish Blood Claws could take Land Speeders or just Wolf Scouts. Anything to make 2 Servitors less clunky as a Mandatory slots for the 2 Detachment options. (4 HQs and 2 Elties OR 6 HQs and 2 Troops)

But at least DA scouts are both troops and appropriately cost. There is no way a current wolf scout is worth 14ppm, and they sure as hell should no longer be elites lol. But I will freely admit I am pissing into the wind here, they are unlikely to be "fixed." I'll still use them but I wish they were less situational.

True. For what it's work Blood Claws for 60 pts aren't too shabby with their Counter Attack and Rage and still in Power Armor. Yes, you are on WS/BS 3, but with that many more attacks, it's actually better than a standard tactical (IMO).

I'd agree but for the fact that they need a vessel in order to get there. Once you use a land raider or stormwolf their cost is now much to high.

You don't need a vessel to get into assaults. You don't even need to assault with them. 5 marines in Power Armor are decently tough and even more annoying when you sit them in ruins. If you are using them as scoring units that sit on objectives, they'll do fine. I have a weird perspective when it comes to Tacticals. I don't think they do anything. 5 Bolters in rapid fire range barely kill anything of worth. If they do wounds, awesome, but I almost consider them similar to Drop Pod Storm Bolters. If they manage to do something, yay! If not, they are tacticals. It's what I originally expected.

Now when it comes to Blood Claws, they are essentially the same thing to me. They are just as "useless", just as durable, but 10 pt cheaper and gain bonuses when being charged and more bonuses when doing the charging. Play them back and I will almost guarantee you someone will come for them and they will get their chance to charge something. If the opponent keeps shooting at it with 3+ armor and 4++ ruins (ideally), then they are soaking up way more than 60 pts worth of fire power. It's a win/win.

Our local tournaments always do a Maelstrom and Eternal War mission at once, so it's really important to snatch objectives. There's no First Blood and max one of the games is with kill points.

I might try a Turn 1 charge fest combined with MSU:

Deathpack:
Lord on TWC, Helm of Durfast, claw, hammer, 2 wolves
3 TWC, 2 shields, hammer, claw
10 GHs, 2 melter, CCWs, pod

Aux:
min Wolfkin

Ironwolves
Battle leader, TDA, claw, shield, 2 wolves
4 TH/SS termis in crusader

Long Fang Ancient with melter + pack leader with combi-melter in pod

5 BCs, flamer, pod
5 BCS, Razorback

4 Speeders

I feel a bit unconfortable with only 3 units that don't die to a stiff breeze though. On the other hand I always keep running out of units if I don't do MSU.

Saythings wrote:You don't need a vessel to get into assaults. You don't even need to assault with them. I

except you said earlier...

Saythings wrote:True. For what it's work Blood Claws for 60 pts aren't too shabby with their Counter Attack and Rage and still in Power Armor. Yes, you are on WS/BS 3, but with that many more attacks, it's actually better than a standard tactical (IMO).

I feel like your moving the target on me here. If your boasting their combat abilities then surely they need a way to get into assault which was stated in my response.

As for using them as backfield campers I still disagree, they are useless in that capacity since they are terrible in low numbers at assaulting, and even worse at range, they only have BS3 pistols for christ sake. Blood claws have literally never been good going all the way back to 2nd edition. They are simply outdone by grey hunters in every roll.

@Red Corsair, I don't believe I'm moving the target from my perspective. I run troops to fill troop slots. Not to actually achieve any sort of supremacy on the board. I'd still use them as backfield scorers, obviously this would change from game to game, but it's hard to remove Power Armor in cover (generally I place my objectives near ruins, if available). That being said, if my opponent wants to dedicate shooting towards them, its going to take more than 60 points worth of firepower to remove them. If they want to assault my Blood Claws or work their way towards them, I'm going to get my 15 to 20 attacks in order from them to claim my objective. They can't score on it unless they move towards them.

It's been awhile since I haven't got my backfield campers in h2h. I'm not claiming Blood Claws to be good. Or even comparative to Grey Hunters. I run my troops as naked as I can and I'm generally only doing so to squeeze in more Iron Priests.

In that regard, I'd argue Blood Claws are "better" than Grey Hunters. As I have a very specific niche in my list building.

Maybe I was a bit clearer that time

No worries mate, I enjoy a good back and forth. To me I'd personally only run them in a razorback/rhino with a flamer and maybe a combi flamer as a min squad. That way you also get mobility and another obsec unit on the cheap with the ability to tank shock. I just don't like the idea of paying even 60 points for a hide away unit with only 5 t4 wounds. My other armies are very lethal and I usually build all my lists with units able to scrub objective campers from cover which is what I am concerned with, A rhino does help though.

I personally like grey hunters more though even in that roll since we are only talking 10 points on a 5 man squad, except now I can run a melta or plasma if I need it in the list but also because you double their shots within 12 and can engage things from 24 when blood claws can only hope they roll decent saves.

Honestly though, for a cheaper back field unit you could always take long fangs with a rhino, 2 guys is even easier to hide and you can always put a heavy weapon on one or still take a flamer and just shoot from the hatch.

Never realized you can could only take 2 Long Fangs as a unit! haha.

I mentioned it briefly before, I'm trying to fill CotGW's Elite slots OR WUD's Troop slots as cheap as possible for Iron Priest slots. This being the case, 5 'durable' bodies for 60 pts with a 'decent' counter assault base isn't too shabby. I don't plan on ever adding additional points to my min. squads, so having the options Grey Hunter's have isn't necessarily an advantage.

You did mention that your other armies have ways of clearing back field objective campers, but some armies don't. They also have to get by my Wolfstar unit. Short of Deepstrike and Flyers, it's quite difficult to get passed the star to kill the Blood Claws. On averages, Blood Claws only slightly lose combat when getting assaulted by Tactical equivs, but do much better when the assault goes the other way around.

Everyone has their preferred units so it's toss up

I just posted 3 lists in one post. I could really use the help as I am new to SW.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/684695.page

I'm getting some more Thunderwolves a week from now, what else should I get? I've heard people saying Librarius Conclave is good...

I'm currently working on my Wolfstar. Finally finished my TFC and 25 Cyberwolves (only need 16, I got carried away haha).

To add to Matthew's question, I'm trying out 2 lists. One with Ultramarine Libby Clave and one with WS LC.

The first includes Tiggy and 3 Biker Libbies. This is for the best chances for Invisibility. It's needed with 1730/1850 is in 1 unit. Also, this is my Nova list (in the works). For ITC, I'm practicing using Tiggy and 2 Biker Libbies. I use the extra points for Rhinos for my DA Scout (Obsec).

The second option (WS) includes 4 Libbies on Bikes. This option is a little more risky as I have less chances of rolling up Invisibility but it gives me 4 more hit and run sources. It also gives me flexibility when it comes to Splitting off 1 IP, 4 Wolves and a Libby for MSU armies later into the game.

Personally, I like the LC with 4 sources of powers and the bikes allow me to spread out if I want to cast more than 2-3 powers (from the channeling libby). RAW/RAI argument limits how many powers you can cast on a 2+. That being said, I always assume I get the lesser result (meaning I'll only cast 3 from Tiggy or 2 from a normal biker).

Against daemon armies I like the option of casting Invisibility and Banishment on 2+, then rolling up 2-3 more banishments to gimp Chaos Imperial Knights or D-Thirsters (on 4+'s) - as maledictions do stack.

Against other armies, it's all circumstantial but it gives me more flexibility in my list which is exactly what I need when I'm running a hyperstar and limited support.

After 4 pages there are a few tactics I haven't seen called out that I've had luck with in regards to the Blackmanes list.

I'm one of the biggest blood claw haters out there because of their WS3 BS3 but while Ragnar himself is nothing special being able to reroll ALL failed to hit rolls turns the tide. Looking at the typical 10 man squad, 40 attacks, only 20 hit, but rerolling the 20 misses yields 10 more hits, or 30 in total. That's a huge difference. Take a power something in the squad to help with autowounds and they can really mop up.

Taking minimum squad numbers 3 claws, 4 GH (which I only make 5 man squads with a melta gun) plus the LF squad which can take a DP (but doesn't have to ride in it) yields 8 drop pods. I give them ALL the deathwind missile launcher. Normally, or never, something I do because 15 points for a 12" range sucks. But when the 35 point pod is already free, and you're suddenly taking 8 pods, that's 8 templates to put down and for only 120 points! It's a wall of pods in front of your enemy and if they want to get through your wall you have 8 templates for them to contend with. The armour 12 and 3 HP is a pain in the ass, especially when you have 3 BC squads muckin up combat and 4 GH squads squabbling around with melta guns blowing tanks up. Its a fun mess

The other issues is star units, flyers, and monstrous creatures. I take a 4 man squad of TWC with 2 power fists and 2 SS, hidden in deployment but with 50 marines in front of your enemy turn 1 they run up unharmed to target any star units the blood claws can't handle by turn 2. I also equip the scouts with sniper rifles because lets face it there just isn't anything you can do with them that will make them worthwhile. At least this way they can target monstrous creatures and take a wound or two. The long fangs I give flakk missiles to handle any flyers.

I have reworked the list. Below.

+++ Wolf Pounce (1850pts) +++

++ Space Wolves: Codex (2014) (SW Company of the Great Wolf Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Rune Priest [Bike, Psyker Mastery Level 2, Rune Axe]
··Power Armour [Bolt Pistol]

Rune Priest [Bike, Psychic Hood, Psyker Mastery Level 2, Rune Sword]
··Power Armour [Bolt Pistol]

+ Elites +

Servitors [Servitor]

Servitors [Servitor]

+ Fast Attack +

Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]

Thunderwolf Cavalry
··Thunderwolf Cavalry [Power Fist, Storm Shield]
··Thunderwolf Cavalry [Chainsword, Storm Shield]
··Thunderwolf Cavalry [Chainsword, Storm Shield]
··Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader [Storm Shield, Wolf Claw]

++ Space Wolves: Codex (2014) (Formation Detachment) ++

+ Formation +

"Deathpack"
··Grey Hunters
····5x Grey Hunter [5x Bolt Pistol, 5x Bolter]
··Thunderwolf Cavalry
····Thunderwolf Cavalry [Power Fist, Storm Shield]
····Thunderwolf Cavalry [Chainsword, Storm Shield]
····Thunderwolf Cavalry [Power Fist, Storm Shield]
····Thunderwolf Cavalry [Chainsword, Storm Shield]
····Thunderwolf Cavalry [Chainsword, Storm Shield]
····Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader [Storm Shield, Wolf Claw]
··Wolf Lord [Thunderwolf, Warlord]
····Armour of Russ [Pair of Wolf Claws]

Wulfen Murderpack
··Wulfen
····Wulfen [Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield]
····Wulfen [Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield]
····Wulfen [Stormfrag Auto-Launcher, Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield]
····Wulfen [Dual Frost Claws, Stormfrag Auto-Launcher]
····Wulfen [Dual Frost Claws, Stormfrag Auto-Launcher]
··Wulfen
····Wulfen [Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield]
····Wulfen [Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield]
····Wulfen [Great Frost Axe, Stormfrag Auto-Launcher]
····Wulfen [Close Combat Weapon]
····Wulfen [Close Combat Weapon]
··Wulfen
····Wulfen [Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield]
····Wulfen [Great Frost Axe, Stormfrag Auto-Launcher]
····Wulfen [Close Combat Weapon]
····Wulfen [Close Combat Weapon]
····Wulfen [Close Combat Weapon]

I have put a challenge lord in this list and to caster to give me options for a force multiplier. With santic or Biomance I should get the offensive or defensive buffs needto make the units hit hard or faster.
With the unit being in the the great wolf formation I will have some thunderwolves are ws 5 which will make that unit a lot more deadly.

I do worry that I have to many point in to the wolfen. What you think??

You used my Servitor idea! Yay!

I really like this concept though, especially with the deathpack since it allows the TWC to assault pretty early.

Also, give TWC Pistols instead of Chainswords, no difference except they get a shooting attack.

Also I might have asked this before, but is using the Malefic Daemonology powers useful as Space Wolves? It would be pretty fluffy for my wolves...