Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You can nitpick every unit to death all day long. Get some games in and see what you can do tactically to win. SW are not a easy button win army. You're going to need allies to make up for whatever weakness you have, depending on what approach you take with them. If you need the SW version of easy win then you're looking at TWC heavy lists. If you really want it to be optimized you take DA, BA and/or WS allies.

Switching gears to tactics...

Using allies...take Stern or Hector Rex to get Sanctuary and give your TH/SS wulfen a 2++. Stern is the better choice since he won't perils on a double and he's decent in combat. You will lose the ability to sweep though since he's in terminator armor.

Lictor- I'm not nitpicking, I feel like I am making a pretty fair evaluation- there's a reason no one takes blood claws. On the other hand, I get what you are saying. Honestly, I just dont believe in allies or fortifications, its just not something I would ever use- heck if I have made the past year plus not adding a knight or dev cents into my SW force, I don't think you'll ever see me change in that respect.

I am actually trying to create a list in the Army List area but have no responses. I want to start with a IronWolf list and was trying to figure out how to get some Wulfen into it and the Rune Priest convocation. I am still trying to figure out if they are worth it or not. You figure you need 5 levels of psychic powers, so 2 level 2's and 1 level 1, then maybe some termie armor or bike for the one level 2 and durfasts helmet- all that will run you around 270 pts. In exchange you get on avg 14 str 7 shot, 2 6's, reroll misses, 1 more 6, so around 18 total str 7 hits (I think ap -). Now is that worth the price of a Land Raider and how do you protect them? Also, you still have to get the power off, with 5 dice plus d6 you should have enough dice but it is WC3 so your chances of perils is decent, even passing on a 3+ you probably have to toss 6 dice at it to be safe. Of course you will also encounter armies that will be able to negate it as they have some many dispel dice. Of course the other option is Njal plus 2 level 1's- I think he can reroll the dice but you are going to pay more and you dont get the helm, which I think is pretty important since it is effectively giving you another 4-5 hits. I dont mind bringing my list ideas into this forum, but I was hoping to discuss in the proper place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Except you can have 4 blood claw + a pack leader with a flamer combi flamer for peanuts. So really that is your load out for them since it doesn't matter they get 1 weapon per 10 because you min maxing and the template weapons mitigate their BS. Next turn charge a tank with MB on that leader.

As for long fangs, your forgeting they have a min of 2 guys! Upgrade the regular to a pack leader and again you can have a drop pod with two guys sporting a combi + special and MB's.

Those two options are arguably better then taking 10 man hunter squads since they achieve two things better.

1. MSU

2. They are way less expensive.

Wolf scouts are the same thing as well, special + combi on a pack leader.

also note that ragnar isn't mandatory like all great company's he can be swapped out for a battle leader. Just through him on a TW mount and ally in a CAD or wolves unleashed for TWC and add him to that unit.

It would be tough for anyone to handle an MSU alpha like that AND a mini wolf star.

Red Corsair, thanks for your input. Again, I wouldnt call myself the most experienced player, but isnt the point of an alpha strike to essentially destroy part of your enemy's forces before they have a chance to react? What weapons are you going to be using to destroy those force? A few flamers, a special weapon in 2 long fang squads and a few plasma pistols in an over priced wolf scout squad and the rest bolters? That was kind of my point, sure you drop down, take a few pot shots, then lose alot more through the enemy fire (and again I am referring to playing against competitive eldar, tau and necron lists). Blood Claws dont have enough teeth in close combat, nor in shooting so you are paying for an objective baby sitting squad. That's why I feel that if they had just given Long Fangs special weapons (which would have fallen right in line with the 13th company) your tactic might be sound. Drop down 2 full squads of long fangs with melta or plasma and have some fun. Let the scouts go OBEL and again, they arent bad. As it is, without allies, I dont think SW have the shooting to really alpha strike. If you want to use allies, then probably or other HQs.

Now, I was thinking IronWolf- and dropping in pods with deathstorm missiles and homing beacons and really not caring if the BC's got killed. I was also thinking of somehow dropping Wulfen in Pods and adding in the Void Claw Termie formation. So you have like 2 squads of Wulfen, the 5 Void Claws and maybe a Murderfang drop in, then have Lone Wolves in terminator armor dropping in turn 2 using the drop pod homing beacons.

Wolves unleash detachment still valid correct?

It's still the best formation for competitive SW play if taking IP as HQs

I would still say the CotGW is still by far the most competitve option wolves have. With wulfen filling the required elites choices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This new detatchment may bode well for competitve wolves

I think the main issue is that for any detachment, you are looking at 5-12 mandatory infantry units before adding any toys. In a minimum list, that is still going to run 600-900 points before adding anything "cool". That is half of your points in an 1850 list.

Conversely, I can fill my minimum requirement in an Eldar war host in about 350 points.

To top it off, the bonus for going all SW tends to be furious charge, and the new counter charge. Furious charge is somewhat redundant, since you can get it from a formation or from a roll from the wolfen, so the main thing is countercharge.

Countercharge is highly situational. You need another unit, unengaged, in range, that you want to plow in. Sure, I could see screening a unit of wolfen or thunder wolves with blood claws, but again the differing speeds screw everything up.

Right now the only good uses are free pods or free tank upgrades. I'd love to have a massive outflanking list, but the units that do so just don't carry enough weight. I'd be hard pressed to take on a Ad Mech force with a knight, for example.

Then there is the further insult that our Dreds still haven't been brought to parity with the normal SM nor has helfrost, our stand in for grav, been made more widely available.

But we have a 20 point pistol on one HQ! Plus a single Helfrost hammer for the same HQ! At least our Scouts were fixed.....oh wait a second.

In terms of the new formations and such I think they're a good set for more casual play but not great for all out competitiveness.

oz of the north wrote:
I would still say the CotGW is still by far the most competitve option wolves have. With wulfen filling the required elites choices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This new detatchment may bode well for competitve wolves

Depends on how you play it I guess, yes if you want Wulfens to be the main Elite support for the death star. But look at the current winning Thunder dome death star list, which contains IP, DA BKs, and Sammael or Azrael. On a efficiency/flexibility standpoint, I think Black knights got wulfens beat in a long shot, TL Plasma talons, 3+++ jink, FNP for whole unit thanks to the Apoth. The wulfens you have to invest a lot to make them survivable, pretty much no shooting, and not as mobile compared to bikes.

I have a few thoughts:

Heralds of the Great Wolf:
- core unit of a Wolf Star, IWND and Reroll and -1BS; 2+ LoS.

Ancients of the Fang:
- protect Bjorn w/ 3+ SS Vet(s)
- smash stuff w/ Reroll Hits
- IWND & Repairs
- Stubborn (meh)

Wyrdstorm Brotherhood:
- Rune Priests in every squad
- massively smash squadrons/V.S.'s
- reliable Psyker usage

Greatpack:
- why only "IC's from this formation", only -1- unit outflank?...

Champions of Fenris:
- longfangs relentless, plasma weapons too

Blackmanes:
- free pods, only count for so much W/O ObjSec.
- arriving on first turn -does- help the Counter-Charge, however...

Deathwolves:
- outflanking all, cute. Interesting in objectives based games.

Iron Wolves:
- first turn assault potential, if but only for terminators
- haha to take lone wolves, is it enough to "have capacity" or does one need legitimate capability to embark which needs a FA drop pod from another detachment?

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
I would still say the CotGW is still by far the most competitve option wolves have. With wulfen filling the required elites choices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This new detatchment may bode well for competitve wolves

Depends on how you play it I guess, yes if you want Wulfens to be the main Elite support for the death star. But look at the current winning Thunder dome death star list, which contains IP, DA BKs, and Sammael or Azrael. On a efficiency/flexibility standpoint, I think Black knights got wulfens beat in a long shot, TL Plasma talons, 3+++ jink, FNP for whole unit thanks to the Apoth. The wulfens you have to invest a lot to make them survivable, pretty much no shooting, and not as mobile compared to bikes.

What does Sammael provide for this unit? I have a lack of knowledge of Sammael. I know Azrael provides unit wide 4++, fearless, +3 to run/turbo, +3 to charge, and+1 to Seize the Init (which is nice for a deathstar that scouts up and doesn't want to take 2 turns of shooting instead of 1).

MekLeN wrote:
Iron Wolves:
- first turn assault potential, if but only for terminators
- haha to take lone wolves, is it enough to "have capacity" or does one need legitimate capability to embark which needs a FA drop pod from another detachment?

You can't take scouts or LW in IW because it has to be a dedicated transport.

 pretre wrote:

MekLeN wrote:
Iron Wolves:
- first turn assault potential, if but only for terminators
- haha to take lone wolves, is it enough to "have capacity" or does one need legitimate capability to embark which needs a FA drop pod from another detachment?

You can't take scouts or LW in IW because it has to be a dedicated transport.

Yet GW lists both options in the formation. Could they really be that sloppy and uncaring about their work? I mean it isnt a misspelled word or typo- it isn't a RAW vs RAI issue, its plain as day- these are the units you can take, nope you cant take scouts or lone wolves, even though we just listed them as part of the force.

I am no expert on how formations works or detachments, or allies but couldnt you simply take a pod from another detachment and assign it to the scouts or Lone Wolf before the game starts? Or are they really to the point where they dont know their own rules anymore?

sturguard wrote:

 pretre wrote:

MekLeN wrote:
Iron Wolves:
- first turn assault potential, if but only for terminators
- haha to take lone wolves, is it enough to "have capacity" or does one need legitimate capability to embark which needs a FA drop pod from another detachment?

You can't take scouts or LW in IW because it has to be a dedicated transport.

Yet GW lists both options in the formation. Could they really be that sloppy and uncaring about their work? I mean it isnt a misspelled word or typo- it isn't a RAW vs RAI issue, its plain as day- these are the units you can take, nope you cant take scouts or lone wolves, even though we just listed them as part of the force.

I am no expert on how formations works or detachments, or allies but couldnt you simply take a pod from another detachment and assign it to the scouts or Lone Wolf before the game starts? Or are they really to the point where they dont know their own rules anymore?

A pod purchased that way isn't dedicated.

Saythings wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
I would still say the CotGW is still by far the most competitve option wolves have. With wulfen filling the required elites choices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This new detatchment may bode well for competitve wolves

Depends on how you play it I guess, yes if you want Wulfens to be the main Elite support for the death star. But look at the current winning Thunder dome death star list, which contains IP, DA BKs, and Sammael or Azrael. On a efficiency/flexibility standpoint, I think Black knights got wulfens beat in a long shot, TL Plasma talons, 3+++ jink, FNP for whole unit thanks to the Apoth. The wulfens you have to invest a lot to make them survivable, pretty much no shooting, and not as mobile compared to bikes.

What does Sammael provide for this unit? I have a lack of knowledge of Sammael. I know Azrael provides unit wide 4++, fearless, +3 to run/turbo, +3 to charge, and+1 to Seize the Init (which is nice for a deathstar that scouts up and doesn't want to take 2 turns of shooting instead of 1).

Hes 15pt cheaper, on a jet bike with plasma cannon, AP2 sword, eternal warrior, +3" run,turbo, charge. Depending on the meta, if your facing a lot of AP2 or 3 shots with ignore cover, then Azrael might be a better choice even tho he's footslogging.

So does anyone have any ideas on how to equip wulfen? I got twenty to work with and I will be facing at least three wraithknights in my next tournament so I know I need some great axes.

You are gonna want thunderhammer/storm shields.

str 10 and get to strike even if killed.

wulfen in combat are the anti wraithknight IMO

 pretre wrote:

MekLeN wrote:
Iron Wolves:
- first turn assault potential, if but only for terminators
- haha to take lone wolves, is it enough to "have capacity" or does one need legitimate capability to embark which needs a FA drop pod from another detachment?

You can't take scouts or LW in IW because it has to be a dedicated transport.

I would say the RAI is: units that can take dedicated transports have to, and it must be big enough to carry them all. So no Razorback for 10-man squads, So scouts would be fine....if someone would ever want them in the first place

But the Ironwolf still isn't worth it. The special rules may be neat, but you are usually only using one of them. I.e. moving 12" and dismbarking means no shooting with your free weapons. And Rhinos and Land Raiders that are most suited for disembarking from don't have any cool upgrades. And a bunch of speeders plus some min BCs in Razorbacks are nearly as unfluffy as allying in DA witches into your TWC units.

Oh, and no TWC in the formation, Good luck fitting them in after your mandatory auxiliary if you want more than min squads.

We got a full suplement with lots of formations, but my tournament list won't change a single bit. I might include a squad of Wulfen when I have painted them, but not because they will improve my list. I think it will stay on the same level, just with something new for a change. That's somehow sad, so much wasted potential.

I even have a squad of BCs in my list and run only 1 small squad of TWC without allies and no IPs, but even for this kind of tame lists the new formations don't add anything. For heaven's sake, I use termies and WG on bikes as my mandatory Elites and still the supplement offers nothing that's better!

PS: the fact the Long Fangs are mandatory is also a downer for me, but thats probably because my bad luck with them. The only meaningful shooting they had done last tournament was killing a Soulgrinder in turn 1. They didn't kill anything else...apart from a BA biker librarianin after 5 player turns of melee

How effective would an aircraft focused SW force be? Terminators, grey hunters, a scout squad, a couple drop pods with guys attempting to clear ground based AA,, a caestus(just because) and most things not starting on the board in the air craft with maybe a raptor flying around as air support? We usually play around the 2500 point level as standard.

Very tough in maelstrom games. Your podders are going to be relatively immobile and slow to cap objs once they land. Starting off the board in flyers gives up a few turns of capturing too.

Okay I got another question...

If I get two Wulfen Murderpack formations, do the effects stack? i.e. would I add +2 to the Curse of the Wulfen roll for every unit on the battlefield instead of +1?

 Lord Scythican wrote:
Okay I got another question...

If I get two Wulfen Murderpack formations, do the effects stack? i.e. would I add +2 to the Curse of the Wulfen roll for every unit on the battlefield instead of +1?

No. You get +1 for each unit beyond the first



Even if you have multiple WMP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if you have two WMP with 2 units each, you would get +3 total.

It does affect non-WMP wulfen rolls though.

The real problem with murderpacks is:

1. Getting to assault
2. buffing Blood claws in assault

You are looking at 200 points for a unit of 5 with weapons, that need to be on the field within 12' of a bloodclaw pack at the start of your turn.

Again, you can't find a way to take advantage of this rule in anything under 2000 points. You could take a Blackmane list with murderpacks, and a CoF detachment with extra pods for the murderpacks, but that is still Turn 2 assault at best and means standing in front of the enemy for a turn.

Plus you have basically 85 marines walking around for the rest of the game, abandoning all strategic flexibility.

I agree. I've been trying to figure out how to make it work.

Unfortunately, I dont think much thought was put into this supplement, at least for the SWs- which is evidenced by the IronWolves not actually being able to take Scouts and Lone Wolves and that the decurion bonus is almost a cut and paste from the main codex (bonuses which no one took before the supplement, so why would they now).

The Wulfen rules are also not very well thought out. I mean no one takes BCs because they just arent very good. So if you are looking to buff them, why take the best roll on the table (which is bonus attacks, then remove BCs from that bonus because they already have rage? Not only that, the units that would be most viable- bikers and jump packs, really gain no benefits, no bonus attacks and they already have hammer of wrath. Give them the +1 attack on top of rage, I mean against any decent HtH unit, they are hitting on 4's instead of 3's. Having buffed bikes and jump pack BCs would have actually made them a bit more viable in Maelstrom games- but not terribly so, because if you are taking objectives, you arent going to always be in range of the wulfen. As it stands, you want to use GH's or WG near the wulfen because they can get the bonuses, yet, with a 6" range and the fact that all the formations incur a BC tax, means there really arent points for them.

I really hate being so negative, but there just doesn't seem alot to jump up and down about- and meanwhile the Tau are getting another formation next week?

Durandal wrote:
The real problem with murderpacks is:

1. Getting to assault
2. buffing Blood claws in assault

You are looking at 200 points for a unit of 5 with weapons, that need to be on the field within 12' of a bloodclaw pack at the start of your turn.

Again, you can't find a way to take advantage of this rule in anything under 2000 points. You could take a Blackmane list with murderpacks, and a CoF detachment with extra pods for the murderpacks, but that is still Turn 2 assault at best and means standing in front of the enemy for a turn.

Plus you have basically 85 marines walking around for the rest of the game, abandoning all strategic flexibility.

later this year the Mastadon will be perfect for getting 20 wulfen into assault.

Mastadon isnt in the SW codex and is an expensive FW piece.

sturguard wrote:
Mastadon isnt in the SW codex and is an expensive FW piece.

wait for the actual rules

There's the starter box for Wolves, which is a formation with no tax units depending on how you outfit everyone. I'd reckon running the Wulfen formation alongside 2-3 of those would be awesome.

Rerolling 1s to hit, or run+assault isn't really that helpful.

The wolfen already have the latter, and while more bolters are better, 2 extra hits isn't exactly game braking.

Nice for a pair of plasma guns though. Wulfen have run and charge but TWC don't. And it's TWC that get the run and charge.

The murderpack ability to allow a unit to move twice coupled with the run+assault for the TWC from that formation is super powerful. Those starter set rules are better than most things in the CotW release.