I'm a fan of tre's metal figures, and was excited to hear he was thinking about moving to plastic, and making a game to go along with it (some details buried deep in this thread).
His pre-game, first set of plastics are up, with 15 figures (5 unique poses, modular heads and weapons) available for $45. Stretch goals are in consideration, but none shown yet. It's a short KS, only 16 days, and I'll try to keep this up to date as it goes. (this is my first "news" thread, so constructive criticisms also welcome!)
Very excited for this and I hope it funds. I'm happy to be honest to see more KS creators being realistic about what's needed to fund a project and not setting a bunch of "fake" stretch goals to hit. Just straightforward - I want to make this, it will cost me this much to do!
I've backed a bunch of Tre's KS and been happy with what I've received in every single one of them.
I love tre's sculpts and if they were hips i would grab loads but every single pvc figure I've had has been a let down (from lots of different producers )
I hope you can do this for your style of elves! No one makes decent elves :( They are either old sculpts or character models or look silly ( skirts....why would an agile race fight in skirts). RBG's elves are the best!
Backed! Love your sculpts and the price point is very nice. I usually detest PVC too, but I think I am willing to take this risk.
By the by, where are they shipping from to us? Should I happen to be in the Greenville area this winter, could I just swing buy and pick them up? Better to spend shipping on a beer for you, after all
Anyway, I wish this project the best of luck, but I'm all tapped out. Tre's sculpts for Reaper are my favorite takes on each of his subjects, so I'll probably pick some up at retail.
Not Trollcast, PVC. I am a little leery of that, but this is one of the few KS that I honestly just want to have happen, as opposed to wanting a huge discount etc. If PVC works well for Tre's stuff I look forward to spending 3$ a model on ALL the things.
Oh, so it's not proper plastic. That explains the 3-part models - HIPS moulds do not agree at all with undercuts, while PVC moulds just mutilate your models a bit.
if it is like the pvc that Cool Mini or Not is using lately it is actually really nice. The blood rage models cleaned easy and have nice details. It shouldn't be like bones or mantic's restic I don't think
Da Boss wrote: Very excited for this and I hope it funds. I'm happy to be honest to see more KS creators being realistic about what's needed to fund a project and not setting a bunch of "fake" stretch goals to hit. Just straightforward - I want to make this, it will cost me this much to do!
I second this. I'd love if this kind of simple setup was to become more common. It would cut down significantly on delays and mis-packs.
I'm tempted to back this even though I don't have much use for the models (which look pretty gorgeous don't get me wrong), just to encourage this kind of simpler setup.
I took great pains to make these models as friendly for PVC production as I possibly could.
As for frame of reference; the manufacturer handling this production is the same manufacturer that handels Privateer Press's production. This won't be bendy rubbery PVC. This is the Hard grade PVC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and thanks everybody! The box is intended to expand as funding allows. $40,000 is the bare minimum I can afford to make this project happen and be worth while for me. I wanted to pay for all of the aspects of production and processing up to final fulfillment AND then have enough money to restock the product to keep it available at retail. This is the test product to better understand the process for when I launch my big deal campaign for the SDSP and for the future product format for RBG goign forward.
I think we've been told that this is the 'high quality', recent "CMON-like" PVC - Zombicide Black Plague/Blood Rage level, I think/hope?
Fingers crossed!
Because I want these minis, but I really want the SDSNRBG Project (super duper secret next Red Box Games) to be able to utilize it to get *everything* from that one when it launches!
I thought PP had made improvements to their PVC. I've heard good things about the Khador IFP in PVC from people but I haven't seen those in person. I'm backing anyway because there's always room for more vikings and I want to get these if they're the test models for the SDSP. I just hope it funds fully; for whatever reasons, Tre's work always gets good reviews but seems to struggle to with exposure.
$40,000 grand to fund 15 Norse minis that are practically the same as dozens of other products already on the market? And it's probably going to fund?
My favorite part about these ones is the minis aren't even finished, just had to hurry and get them up there with no heads. Cause the face can definitely make or break an interest in a sculpt.
You might not be well acquainted with Tre's work. His stuff is generally heads and shoulders above what other companies put out. I would prefer to see more of the model ahead of time, but Red Box games has never disappointed me. Your mileage may vary of course.
It would cost even more as each mini would be broken down into a lot more parts needing more space meaning more moulds to cut
I suspect he's going for 3 to start with, 1 head, 1 body which we'll get 4 of and 1 weapon,
for HIPS you might well need another 2 body spues as you'd have to break the sculpt up more to remove undercuts that PVC can handle and HIPS can't so $40K might well be $60K
(or 40K but only a couple of body types rather than 5)
I do hope he's able to add "add ons" to the campaign, in the hope that folks will up their pledges. None of his previous six campaigns (save the first) has broken the magical $40K barrier.
But the add ons would have to be in metal - which goes against the grain of this project. I've got my fingers crossed that we'll see some added incentive to give tre more money soon!
Yeah, the sculpts would have to be modified or broken down to remove the undercut issues, but even then you are not looking at more than two average size sprues.
Even if the plastic tooling cost in the region of $7.500 (please correct me if it is higher than this) per sprue, it still works out significantly cheaper.
Tre is planning to make other ranges in PVC, right? I love his Reaper work, but I have to agree that "yet more vikings" is not exactly getting my heart racing. They're practically the zombies of the historical scene. I already have true plastic Vikings from WGF, with Gripping Beasts' on my list (near the bottom). Tre's will be better sculpted, but Shieldwolf is bringing a bit more that is new to the Viking plastics table, so I'll spend with them first. However, something like Tre's gnolls in PVC would seize my attention.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Tre is planning to make other ranges in PVC, right? I love his Reaper work, but I have to agree that "yet more vikings" is not exactly getting my heart racing. They're practically the zombies of the historical scene. I already have true plastic Vikings from WGF, with Gripping Beasts' on my list (near the bottom). Tre's will be better sculpted, but Shieldwolf is bringing a bit more that is new to the Viking plastics table, so I'll spend with them first. However, something like Tre's gnolls in PVC would seize my attention.
Also, the $40,000 goal does seem very high considering the number of figures on offer; if it costs that much to produce, why not go with HIPs?
I don't think Tre is capable of sculpting for HIPS.
I was thinking the same. It seems odd that Shieldwolf will offer 20 plastic minis for 20-25$ in HIPS (like their mountain orcs box), while in this case we have 15 for 45$ in PVC. I am aware of the top level of Tre's sculpts and this is why I support most of his campaigns (this one as well) but I thought that PVC is an inferior material than HIPS (and a reason that it is preferred for boardgame minis), while also the molds are cheaper to make.
Maybe I am somewhere wrong here and I would really appreciate some enlightenment. Is the detail level of PVC crisper than that of HIPS?
P.S. I would really like to see some plastic Helsvakt at some point as well (Gynnade Krigare in particular)
HIPS is more crisp if you sculpt and plan accordingly, the way WGF does for Wyrd and KDM. However, it is much more common to see some cutting of corners and blending of undercuts.
The best PVC I've seen is the top end from Mantic's Mars Attacks and DBX campaigns. Most of the time, PVC minis leave a lot to be desired.
Automatically Appended Next Post: However, I also think Reaper's Bones works quite well for gnoll-sized and larger sculpts, so YMMV.
The manufacturer I am working with for this is the same manufacturer who produced Mantic's Mars Attacks and DBX figures. They also produce SDE and a fair few products for various other companies.
PVC does actually capture detail better because it allows for undrcuts. Most of the time when you look at a mini and think " Wow that is highly detailed " it is because the undercuts create shadows that allow your eye to perceive those details more easily. Reducing under cuts means reducing the visibility and sharpness of details.
The way that HIPS modls are made the details are the most " crisp " the closer they are to the direct line from the angle of the tool cutting the metal. This is the " drawline ". As details move further out of this drawline they become fainter and more shallow until they blend into the curve of the piece or disappear entirely.
HIPS can be really well made ( obviously ) BUT PVC IS more akin to the kind of medium table top gamers are accustomed to seeing. I personally like the feel of HIPS better than PVC but I like the detail of PVC better than HIPS.
HIPS molds are also MUCH more expensive and the minimum quantity of sprues per order is 5 times higher. The sprues themselves are slightly cheaper but those savings are gobbled right up in the minimum order quantity This is why you see repeats in boxes so often.
I wish/hope at some point the campaign will produce a character model or some sort of single I can pledge for.
I'm not really interested in the Njorn - but I'd love to get a hands-on preview of the how well the material/casting etc turns out before the Super Secret project launches.
Wont those shields be a problem if you cast with them attached? Seems better to sculpt them separately.
Also, as usual, we could use some scale shots with other models/rulers. Tre, your work is normally on a finer scale, how much have you bulked up the details/depressions/lines to account for PVC shrinkage?
Da Boss, the "trollcast" material is made using an entirely different method - it is "spincast resin". Whereas PVC is made using a traditional injection mold, but because the materia can flex a bit coming out of the mold (unlike HIPS), it isn't as challenging to tool for.
As Tre said, this means you can have some undercuts on the sculpt, and still get the parts out of the mold - but it also results in detail that might not be as sharp. It's a tradeoff... I would have loved to hear that the manufacturer was the same as for Blood Rage, as I've heard amazing things about some of those minis. I think Tre's sculpts will be harder to capture the detail of in PVC... but I am certainly willing to give it a try!
I'm super interested. I love Tre's sculpts (I have some of the Red Box minis from Hasslefree, as well as the Norse Dwarves, and I got my partner Henn of Gar recently). I want to support this.
The one thing that puts me off a bit right now is that all shipping is from the USA. I kind of want the $115 / $120 pack, splitting it with my partner and son... but shipping could push that to say $130... and then import duties and VAT could make it more like $180. Any plans for EU-friendly shipping? Maybe cutting a deal with Hasslefree?
tre manor wrote: The manufacturer I am working with for this is the same manufacturer who produced Mantic's Mars Attacks and DBX figures. They also produce SDE and a fair few products for various other companies.
PVC does actually capture detail better because it allows for undrcuts. Most of the time when you look at a mini and think " Wow that is highly detailed " it is because the undercuts create shadows that allow your eye to perceive those details more easily. Reducing under cuts means reducing the visibility and sharpness of details.
The way that HIPS modls are made the details are the most " crisp " the closer they are to the direct line from the angle of the tool cutting the metal. This is the " drawline ". As details move further out of this drawline they become fainter and more shallow until they blend into the curve of the piece or disappear entirely.
HIPS can be really well made ( obviously ) BUT PVC IS more akin to the kind of medium table top gamers are accustomed to seeing. I personally like the feel of HIPS better than PVC but I like the detail of PVC better than HIPS.
HIPS molds are also MUCH more expensive and the minimum quantity of sprues per order is 5 times higher. The sprues themselves are slightly cheaper but those savings are gobbled right up in the minimum order quantity This is why you see repeats in boxes so often.
Good to hear it's the same manufacturer.
Undercuts aren't everything. I get that PVC is more like the media you are used to sculpting for, but I feel like you are either playing down its flaws... or did not pledge for enough of the early Kickstarters. Please tell me your contract has clauses giving you the final QC check off and forcing the manufacturer to scrap the molds and remake them if the final product isn't up to scratch. Don't let them Mantic you.
The BLOOD RAGE and ZOMBICIDE BLACK PLAGUE minis are VERY nice.
I'd say the same for the WRATH OF KINGS minis too, using the ABS 'weapons' solution.
The biggest issues with even some of the 'best' PVC figures are Bendy Weapon Syndrome (not to be confused with Wehrkind Spongy Factor, or WGS) and loss of detail from master/proto to production, oftentimes the fault of not properly compensating for the shrinkage issues there.
I hope we don't run into those problems here!
(Though I'll admit to cringing when reading that these are going to be 'plastic' minis - technically true, but I still tend to thing HIPs when I read 'plastic'! )
overtyrant wrote: So it's the same Restic that PP use? Have I missed something here? I've had nothing but bad experience with Restic, including PP's.
I can't comment much on PP's stuff, but I'm guessing you've missed the aforementioned BLOOD RAGE, ZOMBICIDE BLACK PLAGUE and WRATH OF KINGS models?
Didn't see Tre mention them anywher (I must be blind), Just the part where he said he's working with the same manufacturer that produced Mantics Mars Attacks and Dreadball Xtreme. If this is true I may have to rethink my pledge.
Alpharius wrote: I'm not sure about this one either now, to be honest with you.
I'd have felt much better if he was using CMON's recent "PVC" factory too.
Apologies for misunderstanding your question and possibly adding to the general confusion!
If I'm honest as soon as I read Mantic I kinda just skimmed the rest, got hopeful when you mentioned those games then looked back and couldn't find them and became sad again
Mantic had some great minis in PVC...when they started with great sculpts and apparently? got lucky on the molds. However, there's a correlation between the skinniness or stature of the sculpt and weakness of the casting, and Tre's sculpts look relatively slender.
Alpharius wrote: The BLOOD RAGE and ZOMBICIDE BLACK PLAGUE minis are VERY nice.
I'd say the same for the WRATH OF KINGS minis too, using the ABS 'weapons' solution.
I agree that the Wrath of Kings and Blood Models are really, really nice. (RiTides needs to get down here to play and see for himself!)
I haven't seen all PP's newest PVC kits, but the Warpwolf and Satyr kits weren't bad, and the argus and Skin walkers were acceptable. PP's Ravager/Blood Pack set was only fair, partially due to sculpting but had some irritating mold lines. The Wolves/Reeves of Orboros box was pretty ok too. Pretty ugly sculpts, but I didn't want to murder god and then myself putting a bunch together. By a bunch I mean ~30.
So really I am fairly optimistic here. I would prefer HIPS, Metal or Resin if given the option at 3$ a pop, but that hasn't happened since I was in middle school.
(not to be confused with Wehrkind Spongy Factor, or WGS) )
I have mixed feelings about the fact that is apparently my only lasting contribution to the community
That's the mix I imagine Bob Dole feels the same way, not really remembered for his contributions other than commercials about dealing with... spongy factor.
RiTides wrote: Da Boss, the "trollcast" material is made using an entirely different method - it is "spincast resin". Whereas PVC is made using a traditional injection mold, but because the materia can flex a bit coming out of the mold (unlike HIPS), it isn't as challenging to tool for.
The problem is that that flexing is a crutch that allows companies to get away with making bad models. If you take the miniature out of the mould before it's fully set - either because you're trying to do things faster or because you want to take advantage of the decreased strength of the plastic to get it out of the mould - you risk permanently changing the internal structure of the plastic through plastic deformation. This is why the hot water method of fixing warped miniatures doesn't work as well as you'd assume: because you've made the bent miniature the natural resting state of the plastic, and the straight miniature is the one that has been pushed out of shape.
I'm confident that Tre believes the material can do his models justice. Having been a backer of his troll cast KS I know what he considers to be acceptable.
My only qualm would be with any variance between what he's been told/shown can be achieved and what can actually be achieved.
That was a pretty big issue in KS1. Given that it's PP's restic maker, I'm dubious on the eventual quality. I haven't really looked at my MA stuff since I got it, and don't have any experience with DBX.
I do know that I'm not prepared to pay a premium for either boardgame PVC or restic, and at $45 for 15 models plus international postage - so at least another $20+, plus AU$>US$ conversion, I'd be looking at AU$91+ for 15 models. So as much as I want Tre' to succeed, I'm going to sit this one out as it makes GW's stuff look cheap without any KS risks (I can get a Start Collecting box of HIPS for AU$100 by way of comparison). Hopefully the next stage after this is HIPS and true plastic pricing.
Some DBX stuff is quite good, mostly in the free agents or mvp sets, I think. Teams with more human sized figures, like the tsudochan and kloris were not nearly as good. Mars Attacks also had a diverse spectrum of quality.
As long as Tre is willing and able to ride herd on the manufacturer, he should get a quality result. After the Trollcast drama, I'd expect him to be prepared for that.
Well, the manufacturer is obviously in China. And we know how well that can turn out if you're not sitting on their doorstep, gently cradling a cudgel. We laugh at Mantic, and deservedly so - but I'm sure they never expected their restic QC to be as awful as it has. Or their boardgame PVC (bendy Dungeon Saga men, anyone?). Or the Men-At-Arms.
Tre's a one-family show, and lacks the means to fly someone out to China to QA the production in the way that Mantic or PP can.
I love Tre's sculpts, but I'm not willing to take the ride with him the first time around the Chinese manufacturer go round at more than $3 a pop for PVC minis. I'm sorry, but it will be better for my health, and those are not prices that create a sufficient fear of missing out to get me to open my wallet .
While i usually support most of Tre's Kickstarters I think I'll be sitting this one out, i was burnt badly during his first 'Trollcast' Kickstarter so at this point i'm overly cautious of anything he produces that isn't metal. During that Kickstarter my pledge was one of the last packages to be sent out, which unfortunately meant the moulds had deteriorated badly which resulted in quite a few of my models having noticeable problems. But some like the Hordesmen which i spent at least $100 on for a large unit were so horribly miscast that it just wasn't worth the time and effort it would take to try and save them.
I don't really think PVC is that bad, it works great for chunkier models like Avatar of Wars Dwarfs and Chaos Warriors or some of Mantic's miniatures. But from my past experiences it just doesn't work that well with thinner and more realistic models. I'm still hoping that this Kickstarter funds though and the models turn out great so i that can eventually pick up a set from the RBG store.
If i can suggest a future Kickstarter Tre, how about converting your Orcs over to PVC? They're big chunky models and would work great in the material, maybe sculpt a few extra heads, bodies and legs to add some more variation and i could definitely see them becoming a good seller at the right price.
IF this Kickstarter is successful, I think the plan is to use this material for the miniatures in the "SDSNRBG Project".
That campaign will attempt to fund 4 factions, I think, and I'm fairly sure that HIPs is not in the picture there either.
With a funding goal of $40K, well, that might include quite a few go-rounds here, and Tre *should* be able to make sure the quality is what it needs to be in order to be successful - in every sense of the word.
Who knows? Maybe that $40K includes a trip or two out to the factory during test shot time and production time too?
Anyhow...
Creator tre manor about 22 hours ago
hey guys, sorry late start this morning.
Shrinkage....... True there is some shrinkage involved int he plastics process. However it is typically more extreme / perceptible on larger models than it is on smaller models. i did have an industry friend who was kind enough to provide me with reference of resin casts and production casts and in the 32mm range the shrinkage to my eye was almost imperceptible. At least in so much as if I did not know there was shrinkage to look for I would not have noticed it at all.
I have also had a LOT of samples from various manufacturers and spent many many hours conversing with agents of these companies trying it nail everything down. I did sculpt the figures to fit with my range using Weglaf of Arnholdt's hill as reference for the scale. I will get some pictures up for reference here in just a couple of hours. Not having the heads finished really makes a big difference in being able to judge scale compatibility.
The shrinkage that i have been warned about has been in the 2-5% range which on a 32 mm figure translates to maybe 1 or 2 mm in shrinkage. For those of you who contributed to my TrollForge Kickstarter the shrinkage on those figures was more extreme / perceptible than 2-5 %
Consistency in sculpting makes a BIG difference in the overall look of the final product.
I just want you guys to know that i fully understand and respect your misgivings. I am paying very close attention to all feedback and considering every option.
Mate best of luck with this project, you deserve all the best. Kickstarters are a pain in the industry and I hate them but I hope you have a good run with it.
I noticed that redbox games will be represented on Salute ( I assume by Hasslefree?) But are you coming down here?
I also remember some chaos barbarians with heavy armour and shields on a previous kickstarter but I cannot find them for sale? will these be at Salute?
As for the chap commenting the lack of heads and all, you must having a laugh! I mean 99.9% of kickstarters these days are vapourware and your complaining about incomplete Greens? I repeat greens, sculpts, greens physical thing...
NAVARRO wrote: Mate best of luck with this project, you deserve all the best. Kickstarters are a pain in the industry and I hate them but I hope you have a good run with it.
There's both good and bad things about Kickstarter when it comes to table top gaming.
One thing that's certain, in my view of the world, is that you lose out on some nice benefits if you eschew crowdfunding. But the benefits you get through crowdfunding are certainly not free, and they don't come cheap.
Tre's products are always great though, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing his minis in PVC!
Production quality has steadily improved with each new product. The manufacturers are getting more skilled at meeting the unique demands of modern table top miniatures, both in terms of production quality and price. I think spin cast metal is always going to be with us, but PVC is an exciting new frontier which is increasingly democratizing large scale production and making minis more affordable for consumers. This helps to expand the reach of smaller companies like RBG, which ultimately helps to grow the hobby.
In short, projects like this are good for all of us, producers and consumers both!
Not sure how, but I somehow convinced myself that Tre was using CMON's factory and not MANTIC's!
Still hopeful though...
AFAIK Mantic has been using different factories for different projects, and CMON probably did too (both actually using the same factories)
Azazelx wrote: Well, the manufacturer is obviously in China. And we know how well that can turn out if you're not sitting on their doorstep, gently cradling a cudgel. We laugh at Mantic, and deservedly so - but I'm sure they never expected their restic QC to be as awful as it has. Or their boardgame PVC (bendy Dungeon Saga men, anyone?). Or the Men-At-Arms.
Tre's a one-family show, and lacks the means to fly someone out to China to QA the production in the way that Mantic or PP can.
I can't speak for PP, but Mantic can't fly someone to China just for checking production, they sent Ronnie and Stew once to visit factories and see how things are done, but can't go there for every project. However they added some steps in the process to avoid surprises like the platform shoes...
That's something Tre can do too, and I trust his eyes more than anyone's at Mantic (remember the guy checking the production is also the one aproving the sculpts)
3$ per PVC mini sounds a bit expensive compared to usual KS deals, but most PVC companies sell characters at up to 10$ per mini
outside of KS crazy offering some troop/team boxes are close to those prices too.
and a PVC cast of a great sculpt will probably turn better than a poor sculpt cast in metal for a similar price, so I could see a room for this.
Not sure how, but I somehow convinced myself that Tre was using CMON's factory and not MANTIC's!
Still hopeful though...
AFAIK Mantic has been using different factories for different projects, and CMON probably did too (both actually using the same factories)
Azazelx wrote: Well, the manufacturer is obviously in China. And we know how well that can turn out if you're not sitting on their doorstep, gently cradling a cudgel. We laugh at Mantic, and deservedly so - but I'm sure they never expected their restic QC to be as awful as it has. Or their boardgame PVC (bendy Dungeon Saga men, anyone?). Or the Men-At-Arms.
Tre's a one-family show, and lacks the means to fly someone out to China to QA the production in the way that Mantic or PP can.
I can't speak for PP, but Mantic can't fly someone to China just for checking production, they sent Ronnie and Stew once to visit factories and see how things are done, but can't go there for every project. However they added some steps in the process to avoid surprises like the platform shoes...
That's something Tre can do too, and I trust his eyes more than anyone's at Mantic (remember the guy checking the production is also the one aproving the sculpts)
3$ per PVC mini sounds a bit expensive compared to usual KS deals, but most PVC companies sell characters at up to 10$ per mini
outside of KS crazy offering some troop/team boxes are close to those prices too.
and a PVC cast of a great sculpt will probably turn better than a poor sculpt cast in metal for a similar price, so I could see a room for this.
good luck with this Tre!
I haven't seen anywhere where it was mentioned that it is the same manufacturer as zombicide or blood rage, only that it is the same manufacturer as does Mantics so we have to use them as the bases of the quality you will get not CMON's zombicide or blood rage... Material wise not sculpting wise...
if I get it right Mantic used the zombicide/blood rage manufacturer too (but indeed it's not the one Tre will use).
However the process are the same and have progressed since sedition wars.
Some of the 2nd wave sedition wars minis suffered from extrem shrinkage, but the sculpting was apparently very thin to start with, more than most 28mm figures
The Mantic restic/PVC figures I could compare didn't suffer that much from shrinkage, even the human sized ones.
I'm curious to see how Tre's figures will turn out.
Not saying they'll turn out as well as his metal figures, just that you shouldn't expect the worse either.
I hope they do turn out well but I cancelled my pledge when I learned of the manufacturer. I'm not willing to take a risk for a high price (which I odd as PVC should be cheap) especially when factoring in shipping and customs etc.
price is about 1/3rd of his metal figures, so "relatively" cheap. He doesn't have the economy of scales other companies have and can't compete with them on minis/$.
But I get your point. Didn't pledge either (no budget for minis right now, and I'd probably prefer to get fewer minis in metal/resin) but I'm sure the deal will please many people.
I have clicked "Remind Me". If it looks likely to fund, I'll chuck in a few dollars just to support it, but without pledging for a reward. With the aforementioned shipping, tax, and duty, it'll be cheaper for me to get this at UK retail after release.
A great step would be to make it EU friendly somehow, avoiding customs will mitigate the high price per model cost other wise customs pretty much kills it of.
Yeah, that would get me straight in at $115. Though I'm not sure if that becomes worthwhile for Tre or not. Might get a couple of dozen extra pledgers for being EU-friendly, at least.
Well, Tre wouldn't necessarily have to cover that stuff; it could all come as part of the shipping costs to EU countries. That's the recommendation from Stonemaier:
(All their posts on KS setup and management are worth a look I think.)
And again, one would hope Tre could cut a deal with Hasslefree or another existing partner... but if not, there are some good fulfillment options that specialise in EU-friendly shipping.
Orlando is exactly right. Being EU friendly introduces a new variable cost that is almost impossible to predict. The people whom I have spoken with want almost as much per package as it would cost me to just pay half the postage myself. And that is only an estimate price to boot!
Thanks very much for the link Ian, that is the first i have heard of these and it appears very helpful.
As for the price per mini, the price is set in such a way as to allow me to restock the product and be able to afford to sell the box set through distribution ( which takes a GIANT bite out of the overall profit ) and also to be able to expand the contents of the box through funding in Kickstarter.
Economy of scale is no joke. I just don't have the support base or running capital to afford to sell minis for less than what i have offered them for here. If I could I would.
Any chance of offering existing stuff at a bit of a discount as add ons? There's a few models I wouldn't mind picking up to help fund the project if I can get a bit of a discount. My funds are tight enough that buying RBG models at full price is a serious decision in terms of "do I need this now?" as is, unfortunately.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, RiTides, insert a link to the KS in Tre's signature line, please!
I save my funds for Tre's kickstarters because I know his stuff is a bit under appreciated and he needs every backer.
I'm cautiously optimistic here - if we can add funds at a constant enough rate for a week or so, then get a big bump in the last few days, it should fund.
I second (again!) the call for add ons. Tre, if you could make your catalog available as add ons, maybe for a bit of a discount, I'd also happily throw more money at the project. I'd love to pick up some of your orcs to go with the goblins I already have!
Tre: for the love of god, send out an update message about this KS to EACH of your previous ones. You only sent an update message to your most recent KSer which had the fewest backers of your previous efforts. Please. There's no reason not to copy/paste your Warbands launch message to all your past projects.
Fugazi wrote: Tre: for the love of god, send out an update message about this KS to EACH of your previous ones. You only sent an update message to your most recent KSer which had the fewest backers of your previous efforts. Please. There's no reason not to copy/paste your Warbands launch message to all your past projects.
Yes, please! You're starting to make me nervous tre!!
I am sorry that I am making anyone nervous. I am trying to devise a solution that will get this campaign righted and moving properly again. I am working. Please bear with me a little further. I think I have a solution btu I am needing to check my quotes from the manufacturer and industry friends who have worked with this manufacturer.
I've been in all of your KSers and haven't received an email about this KS yet. I'm on the fence about this one cause of them being plastic miniatures. My prevalence is metal. I might get in just to support Tre. I have to see what happens.
Guys, please stop asking Tre to add in his existing stock at a discount.
That doesn't help him out 'at all', not only is he losing a lot of money on those sales because of the discount 'and' having to pay KS and Amazon fees on them but he can't use all that money to pay for this Kickstarter because he'll have to restock those figures too.
Imagine if he make 20 grand from people for the boxset and 20 grand from sales of other stuff, he has to use a chunk of that second 20 grand to restock everything he sold 'and' now has to fulfill the kickstarter because it funded ('and' all those sales he got won't now buy them at the proper price).
To be honest, I was really interested with Tre project of Lizardmen, and conan-like undead. Vikings are not really my cup of tea, but I think I'll pledge, since Tre minis are excellent, and it will help kickstart the "other" project.
Truth be told I think it is the idea of PVC that is putting people off. I am a VERY critical person. ESPECIALLY when it comes to the reporduction of my own work. If I did not believe in this I would not even be considering it. I have seen FIRST HAND resin masters next to PVC production pieces and had a very positive opinion of what I was seeing.
Tre posted this in the KS comments - maybe it would help to post those pictures of the resin masters vs. production pieces - even if they are tests? I think a lot of people do indeed have very negative impressions of PVC. I'm pretty wary of it myself, even though I have a fair bit of PP's later stuff and it's pretty good quality-wise.
Artemis Black wrote: Guys, please stop asking Tre to add in his existing stock at a discount.
That doesn't help him out 'at all', not only is he losing a lot of money on those sales because of the discount '
Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Note, I don't personally care either way if Tre' offers a discount on existing stock or not in this case, and I do wish him the best in funding - though making enough money for his own metal casting equipment might be a better/more achievable option in the short term than the PVC production.
Ian Sturrock wrote:I have clicked "Remind Me". If it looks likely to fund, I'll chuck in a few dollars just to support it, but without pledging for a reward.
If you don't want any reward, why not chip in now and get it closer to that 'hey, looks like it's going to fund' point for other people?
tre manor wrote:
As for the price per mini, the price is set in such a way as to allow me to restock the product and be able to afford to sell the box set through distribution ( which takes a GIANT bite out of the overall profit ) and also to be able to expand the contents of the box through funding in Kickstarter.
Economy of scale is no joke. I just don't have the support base or running capital to afford to sell minis for less than what i have offered them for here. If I could I would.
Wehrkind wrote:Any chance of offering existing stuff at a bit of a discount as add ons?
pancakeonions wrote:I second (again!) the call for add ons. Tre, if you could make your catalog available as add ons, maybe for a bit of a discount
What Arty said. Exalted.
Azazelx wrote:Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Can he afford to 'earn less'? All signs point to no.
I do think a way for people to up their pledges beyond $45 without just getting duplicates of the box set is important for this to fund. How best to do that is something Tre knows best! Perhaps recent sculpts he has stock of or could easily restock would help. Whatever makes the most sense, but there needs to be an avenue to increase the average value per pledge!
Ian Sturrock wrote:I have clicked "Remind Me". If it looks likely to fund, I'll chuck in a few dollars just to support it, but without pledging for a reward.
If you don't want any reward, why not chip in now and get it closer to that 'hey, looks like it's going to fund' point for other people?
tre manor wrote:
As for the price per mini, the price is set in such a way as to allow me to restock the product and be able to afford to sell the box set through distribution ( which takes a GIANT bite out of the overall profit ) and also to be able to expand the contents of the box through funding in Kickstarter.
Economy of scale is no joke. I just don't have the support base or running capital to afford to sell minis for less than what i have offered them for here. If I could I would.
Wehrkind wrote:Any chance of offering existing stuff at a bit of a discount as add ons?
pancakeonions wrote:I second (again!) the call for add ons. Tre, if you could make your catalog available as add ons, maybe for a bit of a discount
What Arty said. Exalted.
Azazelx wrote:Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Can he afford to 'earn less'? All signs point to no.
All I am saying is that if he can do it, it would be nice. If he can't, then the answer to my question would be "No, sorry, no chance as I wouldn't be able to make extra money to put towards the KS anyway." That's fine too. The question is a reasonable one, however, as many companies offer existing models at a discount to boost KS levels. See Mierce and Shield Wolf, for instance.
I don't know about most people, but I don't need >3 sets of the same models, especially since I don't have a particular plan in mind. If Tre had another thing on offer for which I could give him money I would be glad to do it.
You and Artemis might want to dial it back a little, Vermis. Most everyone in the thread is very supportive of Tre's project here and trying to come up with ways to help. I get what you guys are saying, but it isn't being delivered in a very pleasant manner.
Having seen the other projects and the fulfillment difficulties, I'd imagine Tre has some painful experience with offering back catalogue minis to backers. He's made a loss on previous KS and only delivered through dogged perseverance. I guess right now he's trying to make a KS model that works for him, as a small operation. His previous limited KS were in metal and seemed to be reasonably successful (though the Barbarian Hordes one hit problems).
I guess moving to plastic is a gamble. The sad part is that the work on the sculpts is already done because that's what people expect - that's a lot of labour hours for a one man show like Tre. So if it doesn't fund that will be a kick in the teeth.
It's sad that when a KS creator tries to be conservative and careful (as people demand in other KS when creators overpromise) they hit this problem. I mean it's psychologically understandable and there's plenty of case studies to suggest being honest with your customers is not effective, but it's still a bit sad.
I know that I am really biased because I'm a huge RBG fanboy, but I don't see it as "just" a customer style relationship in this case - I think like a lot of people backing here I just love the art and craftsmanship in these minis and I want to see them made and on the market.
Agreed on all points. I kind of wish I had more money to dump on this just because I like Tre's stuff, but I just don't have the cash flow now. I suppose one could always plan to go in for 2-3 sets and sell the extras they don't need later if they have the free cash around.
Aye - that's my problem too. I've a lot of expenses right now. I might still up my pledge but I've got to look at what I've got in the tank first - I've to fly to the states for a wedding shortly and then pay for my own wedding in July.
I do get annoyed with the attitude many people have toward kickstarters that the purpose is to get an amazing deal by pre-ordering something years in advance, with tons of exciting unlocks and stretch goals to heighten the experience. I think there is something to be said for people supporting a project because they want it to succeed and help make something that might not otherwise be made.
Having said that, I don't think that is the issue here. For me, this doesn't seem like a product that should succeed. Are people really going to pay $55 at retail for 15 PVC models, with only 5 unique sculpts? Especially when they pay around $30 for boxes of 20-ish plastic models that can be assembled with a great deal more variety. So people who want a lot of models will go that route, for both variety and cost.
If they contention is that these have much better detail, then people will probably want to see a production miniature to demonstrate that. But even so, if the idea is that these are as good as the metals at less than half the price, I'm still not sure that is much of a selling point. Buying individual metals get you the exact figures you want, with no repeats. Most people who only need a handful of something will probably prefer that, even if a little more expensive.
I'm just not quite sure what group this does target. However, if this were the evil barbarians, I might be in because I like those. But only if there were a little more variety. Say, one unarmored with a weapon in two hands (separate weapon head could be axe, hammer, etc), one unarmored with separate right hand (with different weapon options, one armored with weapon in two hands, one armored with separate right hand, and one archer. Separate heads like these. That gives enough variety that more people might buy several boxes. But then some people that just want about 10 similar looking guys are kind of out of luck and probably wouldn't buy at all, so maybe that's worse.
Ah darn, it's been cancelled - however, there's an opportunity to come back stronger from that, as the Shieldwolf campaign is a really good example of! Maybe rethink things a bit and target the offerings so that people can pledge more.
Well, PP sells 10 PVC Wolves of Orboros for 55$ (42$ with discount at Miniature market. Those only have 4 unique sculpts (ignoring the Reeves options as those are replacements, not extra). So 15 models for the same model and more options seems like a good deal. Perhaps not compared to some plastic models, but then Tre often has better quality sculpting than others, at least for certain tastes.
On your other point about the reason for Kickstarters, if I am going to pay upfront for a product that I don't get to see, might not ever exist, and I won't even find out for sure for a year or more, yes, I expect a discount. I have some KS rewards stretching into the 2-3 years before delivery at this point, some of which I am starting to think I will never see. If I had to pay full retail to maybe never get anything I would not be backing anything.
I put a lot of trust in Tre, and I would like this project to succeed for him because of him as must as because of the models. However, I care about the well being and success of many people, and the vast majority don't get scarce dollars just to help with a project.
There is a platform for funding people and projects with no expected return other than the warm glow of seeing their project come to life. It is called "Go Fund Me". People seem to get money out of it, but I am unaware of it being a place to start new business project successfully.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Man, I spend all that time on a post, and the subject matter disappears before I finish.
Well, hopefully he does relaunch, but with completed model sculpts to show. I suspect seeing the heads, weapons and bodies finished up will get people more excited.
Well with great regret I am announcing the end of this campaign today. As much as I would like for it to succeed I just do not think it can as it is planned and presented. Things such as they are I would have to remake the existing figures and use more mold space which may or may not exist. Trying to introduce the back catalogue as rewards will only undermine my relationship with retailers and further dilute my regular income source but worst of all would actually undermine the overall goal of this campaign by destroying the margins.
I want to thank everyone who backed this project for their support and encouragement. I also want to say that I do very deeply regret the disappointment the cacnellation of this campaign must surely cause. I wish things were different but such as they are this campaign will not be able to succeed and I desperately need to get to work on a project that will succeed and start moving forward. I have spent the past year designing, redesigning, sculpting, and resculpting these same figures over and over again. I just do not have the will to do it again right now on the off chance that I will get it right and possibly attract enough backers with interest to fund the project.
I have not given up on the effort of plastics production. I will find a way to fund a test run on my own to prove the process and my ability to produce great plastic minis. Right now however I am just going to try to fund these offered miniatures in metal and move on to the next project.
Again I thank you all for your encouragement and support and I deeply apologize for the disappointment of this cancellation.
Cheers,
Tre'
Another thought... what about going with the super secret project sculpts (which you've done quite a few of I think?) but in metal? People have shown they're willing to pay for your sculpts in metal, and it would be very doable with your current production partners!
While I do dearly appreciate the sentiment and encouragemnt it offers I really would not want people digging deeply JUST so the project can succeed. I understand the sentiment and dearly appreciate it but the goal IS to make something that yall actually want, can use and will attract new customers as well.
I have given this a LOT of thought over the past couple days and have decided today to end the project. Resculpting these figures is just beyond me right now. I would rather start over completely from nothing and make something that will work for the effort better.
if anything I have learned a lot from this experience which will surely help my next effort.
For now though I am going to fund these figures as single piece miniatures and move on to the next project.
Well with great regret I am announcing the end of this campaign today. As much as I would like for it to succeed I just do not think it can as it is planned and presented. Things such as they are I would have to remake the existing figures and use more mold space which may or may not exist. Trying to introduce the back catalogue as rewards will only undermine my relationship with retailers and further dilute my regular income source but worst of all would actually undermine the overall goal of this campaign by destroying the margins.
I want to thank everyone who backed this project for their support and encouragement. I also want to say that I do very deeply regret the disappointment the cacnellation of this campaign must surely cause. I wish things were different but such as they are this campaign will not be able to succeed and I desperately need to get to work on a project that will succeed and start moving forward. I have spent the past year designing, redesigning, sculpting, and resculpting these same figures over and over again. I just do not have the will to do it again right now on the off chance that I will get it right and possibly attract enough backers with interest to fund the project.
I have not given up on the effort of plastics production. I will find a way to fund a test run on my own to prove the process and my ability to produce great plastic minis. Right now however I am just going to try to fund these offered miniatures in metal and move on to the next project.
Again I thank you all for your encouragement and support and I deeply apologize for the disappointment of this cancellation.
As I said in the update comments, a real shame this didn't take off.
I'll be waiting for the next project. I think it takes integrity and honesty to cancel a project instead of over-promising and dealing with the issues later in some shoddy way. You've gone up in my estimation Tre, and I hope this doesn't take the creative wind out of your sails.
I will also back this in metal.
As for the Super Secret Project, I really hope we can see this making it into the light of day soon. The stuff you've shown so far was all wonderful and it's a very tempting setting and look you've got going on there. But I hope you'll take it carefully too - this seems to be the real goal and I'd hate to see you get burned on it too.
tre manor wrote: If anything I have learned a lot from this experience which will surely help my next effort.
For now though I am going to fund these figures as single piece miniatures and move on to the next project.
I think that is a good approach, as Wehrkind says!
tre manor wrote: I am actually considering the SDSP in metal now more than ever. I won;t commit it to that yet, but it is a possibility.
Da Boss wrote: As for the Super Secret Project, I really hope we can see this making it into the light of day soon. The stuff you've shown so far was all wonderful and it's a very tempting setting and look you've got going on there. But I hope you'll take it carefully too - this seems to be the real goal and I'd hate to see you get burned on it too.
Agreed here, too - and honestly, I think just making the figures and using compatible Frostgrave rules could be a great way to get over the last big hurdle (rule design) since the sculpts and concepts were just awesome!
Artemis Black wrote: Guys, please stop asking Tre to add in his existing stock at a discount.
That doesn't help him out 'at all', not only is he losing a lot of money on those sales because of the discount '
Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish..
*grin* Thanks.
It's not quite as simple as that, there's a number of groups of people who buy in a sale. Probably the largest group are those were already thinking about buying stuff or had a wishlist etc and were just encouraged to buy today instead of next week or next month, those are losing you money. Another group, especially in a kickstarter for multiple weeks are basically all of your regular customers. Those are definitely losing you money. The smallest group of any sale is the one of people who would never have bought otherwise, those don't outweigh the above.
I would buy SDSP in any medium. Well maybe not cheese.
Plastic would be really nice though. But I guess you need certain economies of scale for it, and people are super skeptical of PVC as a medium due to bad experiences with other companies.
Bummer. I was one of your fans very eager to see your work in plastic. The SDSP in metal is a bit of a disappointment, but I'll be checking it out either way.
Please do make sure that the box for the SDSP has adequate room to properly store metal figures. Either room for us to put in a foam tray, or very carefully designed plastic trays, akin to Zombicide and other CMON offerings, so that the figures can be stored in the game.
well like I said the SDSP is NOT confirmed for metal. Truth be told I would vastly prefer it to be in oplastic for a variety of reasons, not least of which is it allows me to afford the big beasties i want to be included in the game.
tre manor wrote: I am actually considering the SDSP in metal now more than ever. I won;t commit it to that yet, but it is a possibility.
..now that's what I wanted to hear!
Hopefully you decide to make that happen!
It is disappointing - and I'm bummed for Tre - but at the same time - I find his metal minis to be ridiculously affordable - so I'm not too put off by the idea of the SDSP in metal. And the limited modularity for the grunts (that he was going for in this campaign) would be doable in metal I would think.
Artemis Black wrote: Guys, please stop asking Tre to add in his existing stock at a discount.
That doesn't help him out 'at all', not only is he losing a lot of money on those sales because of the discount '
Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish..
*grin* Thanks.
It's not quite as simple as that, there's a number of groups of people who buy in a sale. Probably the largest group are those were already thinking about buying stuff or had a wishlist etc and were just encouraged to buy today instead of next week or next month, those are losing you money. Another group, especially in a kickstarter for multiple weeks are basically all of your regular customers. Those are definitely losing you money. The smallest group of any sale is the one of people who would never have bought otherwise, those don't outweigh the above.
Well.. as much as I love the look of Hasslefree stuff, I have never bought it.. and probably won't unless there's a sale. So there's that for what it's worth.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not sure what the SDSP thing is but I'll say this..
There's been a LOT of vikings released lately. I like Tre's sculpts a lot. I would back a Tre Manor KS if it were.. say.. Gnolls (hint?) or other fantasy creatures in some form. I have barbarians, vikings, and plainsmen coming out my ears from many companies though.. and PVC isn't overly appealing if I'm being completely honest.
Also.. I thought this KS was just to fund a couple of models. Was it supposed to evolve into a game? That wasn't very clear from the go. As I read it.. it was literally just to fund a couple of Vikings in PVC.
Yea, the question on whether it makes money is much more complicated than Artemis makes out. If you sell 20% more at a 10% discount you might come out ahead. Some of the increase might be sales moved forward as Artemis says, and lose you compared to full price. Some are going to be people who wanted X models, but buy X+Y because of a sale. (Who hasn't spent 20$ more than you intended because you wanted to save 5$ on free shipping?) Some people are going to be new customers who weren't sure about jumping in due to price, but now that they have them are life long fans. (That described me 6 years ago when I got my first 5 or so on sale.)
Finally, if you use the sales to fund a Kickstarter on a more profitable line that you couldn't have done without it, then it is a good investment and makes money.
So yea, choosing the right price is a tricky proposition.
Azazelx wrote:Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Can he afford to 'earn less'? All signs point to no.
And then clearly $40k is too big an ask. I've spent a thousands of dollars of money on models I would never have bought because of and during during sales. That's how they work, and why they work. Sales can still be very profitable, if done with thought.
Wehrkind wrote: Yea, the question on whether it makes money is much more complicated than Artemis makes out..
I said it 'was' complicated. And it's still a terrible idea.
Terrible depends on all the variables I described and more. You say complicated, but you seem to mean "simple enough that I know for certain despite my distance from Tre's finances, supply situation and customer base." It might be terrible for your model line, and it might be alright for Tre's. He probably knows.
Obviously having sales helps make money, or else every company wouldn't do it all the time. It is ridiculous to claim that having a sale is necessarily bad for business.
Wehrkind wrote: Well, PP sells 10 PVC Wolves of Orboros for 55$ (42$ with discount at Miniature market. Those only have 4 unique sculpts (ignoring the Reeves options as those are replacements, not extra). So 15 models for the same model and more options seems like a good deal. Perhaps not compared to some plastic models, but then Tre often has better quality sculpting than others, at least for certain tastes.
Of course, those Wolves are part of an army for WarmaHordes, so players of that/those extremely popular wargame will buy the correct figures for it.
I think this KS (and relaunching it) is a bad idea, and I fear it'll end RBG via the sunk costs on a failed line of overly-expensive PVC figures. They might be well sculpted, but no-one has any particular reason to purchase them over 1-2 boxes of HIPS models unless they're fans of RBG and/or the sculpts. As we've seen, the number of people who are fans of RBG and are also willing to kick in $45 a set aren't enough to get this funded. I can't see how they'll be a viable retail product.
I get it that people are fans of RBG, they like Tre' and they want to see him succeed. I am and do as well. I just have a real concern that this could end him, and well-meaning supporters encouraging him could contribute to that. Better to purchase metal casting facilities so Tre' can (literally) do things in-house, saving a ton of money, and possibly even expand his range to things like Hasslefree, Heresy, models, etc under licence as a US source in the same way that others offer a limited selection of RBG models from the UK nowadays.
Wehrkind wrote: Yea, the question on whether it makes money is much more complicated than Artemis makes out..
I said it 'was' complicated. And it's still a terrible idea.
Terrible depends on all the variables I described and more. You say complicated, but you seem to mean "simple enough that I know for certain despite my distance from Tre's finances, supply situation and customer base." It might be terrible for your model line, and it might be alright for Tre's. He probably knows.
Wehrkind wrote:
(General anti-existing range stuff in spoiler.)
You and Artemis might want to dial it back a little, Vermis. Most everyone in the thread is very supportive of Tre's project here and trying to come up with ways to help. I get what you guys are saying, but it isn't being delivered in a very pleasant manner.
Da Boss wrote:Ah, but that's Vermis. It's part of his charm?
That was me being pleasant.
If you want more of an explanation of the facepalm smiley, it's basically what's right there in that little quote sequence: Tre says "guys, honestly, I can't offer these cheaper or put in a load of add-ons and discounts" and in the next few replies people say "Hey Tre, put in some add-ons at a discount".
[Edit: redacted]
But I don't think Tre's to blame for other problems that hit this kickstarter. I think there's too much of an ingrained expectation of discounts, freebies and add-ons in a lot of wargaming kickstarters; and I think it creates too many problems for kickstarters that avoid it and are ignored before funding, and kickstarters that follow it and run out of money, or into other problems, after funding.
That's another reason I contributed. I don't think the discounts-n-addons style of KS is especially sustainable, but I don't expect them to disappear any time soon. But I've seen more of these smaller, simpler KSs lately and I'd like to help them along a little. I see them as 'real' KSs, or at least more in the spirit of what Kickstarter was apparently meant to be.
Also, I think there was far too much misunderstanding about what these minis were supposed to be, especially what 'plastic' meant. People say 'this isn't like HIPS kits with a gazillion optional bits'. Well, where did it say that it was meant to be like that? As said, I agree that the options seem a little lacking, but this isn't a HIPS kit, for building big armies with no undercuts in 'em, besides anything else. It's there in the kickstarter: "Njorn warband set". Your mileage may vary, but that says 'skirmish' to me.
And all the confusion in this topic over the material - it's like CMoN or Mantic or PP or Zombicide or... Strewth. Has everyone tried every type of PVC from every manufacturer, except me? Otherwise, how would you know?
To be honest, I only know bendy PVC (horrible) and trollcast (decent). I have only Tre's word on the PVC he's got plans for, but if he's been testing for four years and gives it the green light, I'd be willing to take a punt on it.
So not HIPS, but plastic that allows undercuts and prices at $3/£2 a mini, etc. - I dunno about anyone else, but it looks like a cheaper alternative to metal, to me. One that retains most of Tre's style and sculpt detail, that made the RBG range so admired.
Hopefully he can inject a bit more variety into whichever sculpts make their debut in PVC. And that's it.
Azazelx: Do you think it could end Tre's business if he relaunches in metal? It seems like his metal kickstarters have been a bit more safe and successful than the plastic ones in the past.
In any case, I agree- I encourage care and conservatism because I'm pretty aware of how important the bottom line is when you're a one man show.
MLaw: The SDSP is not viking orientated from what I can see. Factions include Barbarians, Mutants, Amazons and Lizards and very cool and unique looking Undead. It seems to somewhat be influenced by the likes of Conan and Darksun, but that's not the only place it's taking influences from. There's a thread about it in this forum but it's pretty long, but there's a couple of prototype figures in there.
Vermis: Nice post, I agree with pretty much everything you've said there but especially about the pressure on creators for unsustainable projects. But I think the others are also right, because as you see here, people just don't reward conservative KS with funds. It's sad but it's part of human psychology. It's a real dilemma and I think it's one of the things people can justifiably grumble about KS for, because in some ways it's allowed people to crowd out the market with promises and air, leading to people becoming disillusioned and pledging less on projects like this, which (to me anyway) is exactly the sort of campaign KS was built for. So instead of taking the risk out of planning and producing minis, it's adding risk and stress to the whole procedure.
People are probably too professional to do it, but I'd love to read a discussion from various creators about what going through the KS meatgrinder is like for them.
With respect to Kickstarter and sales, it is worth noting that you pay part of your margin to Kickstarter. A 20% discount on Kickstarter is 30% right off the top. For small companies that can't benefit very much from economy of scale, this can pinch.
An expectation of a discount is reasonable on the one hand, given the inherent risk a customer assumes via crowdfunding, but the expectation has really been fueled by established companies like CMoN.
Regardless, the expectation of a discount makes it harder for small companies to be successful on Kickstarter. Not impossible, just harder and inherently more risky.
Just to give some context, I know Wehrkind personally and he is close to finishing his PhD in economics, so when he says "Under these circumstances a sale can actually make you money" he's talking about things in that light. I know Artemis is also knowledgeable from directly being in the industry - but I just wanted to mention that context! Also, to Vermis point - Wehrkind also has a fully painted fantasy army that is absolutely chock full of RBG models. He's supported Tre's business more than any single person I know. So, I think you might be misunderstanding a genuine suggestion from a huge fan for something else!
Folks were just suggesting ways to get the campaign moving, and because you do have to wait months for the models, existing products that are offered as add-ons are usually discounted a bit - otherwise you'd just get them off the webstore for immediate delivery, instead! I don't think anyone wants Tre to make a huge discount on his already affordable range - people were just suggesting ways to get the campaign moving. I'm very happy to see him planning to relaunch it in metal - as others have said, I have found his metal range already quite affordable, and of excellent quality!
tre manor wrote: well like I said the SDSP is NOT confirmed for metal. Truth be told I would vastly prefer it to be in oplastic for a variety of reasons, not least of which is it allows me to afford the big beasties i want to be included in the game.
Cheers Jorny Thanks!
Tre - As suggested elsewhere, what about making the big beasts in PVC if things go really well, but the initial infantry in metal? Best of both worlds!
RiTides wrote: Just to give some context, I know Wehrkind personally and he is close to finishing his PhD in economics, so when he says "Under these circumstances a sale can actually make you money" he's talking about things in that light. I know Artemis is also knowledgeable from directly being in the industry - but I just wanted to mention that context! Also, to Vermis point - Wehrkind also has a fully painted fantasy army that is absolutely chock full of RBG models. He's supported Tre's business more than any single person I know. So, I think you might be misunderstanding a genuine suggestion from a huge fan for something else!
Folks were just suggesting ways to get the campaign moving, and because you do have to wait months for the models, existing products that are offered as add-ons are usually discounted a bit - otherwise you'd just get them off the webstore for immediate delivery, instead! I don't think anyone wants Tre to make a huge discount on his already affordable range - people were just suggesting ways to get the campaign moving. I'm very happy to see him planning to relaunch it in metal - as others have said, I have found his metal range already quite affordable, and of excellent quality!
tre manor wrote: well like I said the SDSP is NOT confirmed for metal. Truth be told I would vastly prefer it to be in oplastic for a variety of reasons, not least of which is it allows me to afford the big beasties i want to be included in the game.
Cheers Jorny Thanks!
Tre - As suggested elsewhere, what about making the big beasts in PVC if things go really well, but the initial infantry in metal? Best of both worlds!
Wait.. I keep hearing about big beasties.. wasn't this campaign just for a few Vikings? I asked this earlier.. if other things were planned, not mentioning that is a huge mistake.. I'm sure I'm not alone in not really needing Vikings at the moment but anything else I would certainly take a look at.
Tre - As suggested elsewhere, what about making the big beasts in PVC if things go really well, but the initial infantry in metal? Best of both worlds!
RiTides wrote: Also, to Vermis point - Wehrkind also has a fully painted fantasy army that is absolutely chock full of RBG models. He's supported Tre's business more than any single person I know. So, I think you might be misunderstanding a genuine suggestion from a huge fan for something else!
So, I click-ran through it looking at the pictures (which I had done previously) and still didn't see any big beasties other than a bunch of putty on an armature early on. I did see a very very very nice Lizardman.. which probably would've pulled a few bucks from me.. but I also didn't read 25 pages of the thread.. (I did skim a bit).
The structure of the proposed game (which I assume is the later KS and not this one) sounds great.. Especially if it means real lizardfolk and reptile minions that are kinda like D&D troglodytes (oh man I hope that's how that plays out).
I also see that a few people suggested that this KS be monsters and a few people talked him out of that.. which.. had it been monsters I would've probably auto-pledged..
I saw mutants.. which.. are kinda weird but usable. Cultists.. which are very Robert E Howard .. which .. awesome.. Zombies.. eh. As nice as they are I think I'm at saturation levels..
I also caught a bit of the woes Tre is going through ..or was.. dunno.. but I'll be putting in the order I've been putting off when I get my tax money.. I wish I had done so when the HQ adventurers were still available :/
The context of things was, if he decided to launch that project in PVC, this project would have been a test of the material. But it looks like the reception to Tre's sculpts in PVC was not as good as it could have been... so perhaps both projects will now be done using traditional materials. We'll just have to see what Tre decides!
RiTides wrote: The context of things was, if he decided to launch that project in PVC, this project would have been a test of the material. But it looks like the reception to Tre's sculpts in PVC was not as good as it could have been... so perhaps both projects will now be done using traditional materials. We'll just have to see what Tre decides!
I don't know if that's fair. I'd say the reception to more Vikings was not as good as it was expected. I'm not a huge fan of PVC, but $3 per minis is quite reasonable if the minis are things I don't already have a ton of or could buy for at a third of the price per mini. Monsters? I love Tre's monsters, but would want something newish. If he wants to stick to humans, maybe some sort of civilization that hasn't been done to death? Depends on what the sculpts look like, but he usually nails it.
Vikings? Er...
Barbarians? Uh...
Knights? Too many already.
Romans? It's been done.
Zombies? I don't think...
Pirates? nah.
Zombie Pirates? :Rolleyes:
Orcs? No, thanks.
Goblins? Nope.
Dwarfs? Please stop.
RiTides wrote: The context of things was, if he decided to launch that project in PVC, this project would have been a test of the material. But it looks like the reception to Tre's sculpts in PVC was not as good as it could have been... so perhaps both projects will now be done using traditional materials. We'll just have to see what Tre decides!
I don't know if that's fair. I'd say the reception to more Vikings was not as good as it was expected. I'm not a huge fan of PVC, but $3 per minis is quite reasonable if the minis are things I don't already have a ton of or could buy for at a third of the price per mini. Monsters? I love Tre's monsters, but would want something newish. If he wants to stick to humans, maybe some sort of civilization that hasn't been done to death? Depends on what the sculpts look like, but he usually nails it.
Vikings? Er...
Barbarians? Uh...
Knights? Too many already.
Romans? It's been done.
Zombies? I don't think...
Pirates? nah.
Zombie Pirates? :Rolleyes:
Orcs? No, thanks.
Goblins? Nope.
Dwarfs? Please stop.
Pretty much this :/ It seems like 90% of the fantasy KS projects the last .. maybe ever.. have been something on this list or a combination. None of these are bad subjects to produce.. but.. it's what everyone's doing. I think the idea is more that all of those low hanging fruit might've been picked already..
Hey guys, as noted earlier I think this thread should focus on Tre's Warband shown in the OP. For discussion of other things he could work on, please jump over here where he's already shown some really creative stuff:
RiTides wrote: The context of things was, if he decided to launch that project in PVC, this project would have been a test of the material. But it looks like the reception to Tre's sculpts in PVC was not as good as it could have been... so perhaps both projects will now be done using traditional materials. We'll just have to see what Tre decides!
I don't know if that's fair. I'd say the reception to more Vikings was not as good as it was expected. I'm not a huge fan of PVC, but $3 per minis is quite reasonable if the minis are things I don't already have a ton of or could buy for at a third of the price per mini. Monsters? I love Tre's monsters, but would want something newish. If he wants to stick to humans, maybe some sort of civilization that hasn't been done to death? Depends on what the sculpts look like, but he usually nails it.
Vikings? Er...
Barbarians? Uh...
Knights? Too many already.
Romans? It's been done.
Zombies? I don't think...
Pirates? nah.
Zombie Pirates? :Rolleyes:
Orcs? No, thanks.
Goblins? Nope.
Dwarfs? Please stop.
Below is my surprising, long winded, and likely unpopular advice and thoughts on the project.
tre manor wrote:As for the price per mini, the price is set in such a way as to allow me to restock the product and be able to afford to sell the box set through distribution ( which takes a GIANT bite out of the overall profit ) and also to be able to expand the contents of the box through funding in Kickstarter.
Economy of scale is no joke. I just don't have the support base or running capital to afford to sell minis for less than what i have offered them for here. If I could I would.
I think this points out one problem with the project: the size of the funding goal. It sounds like there was quite a bit of margin baked into that goal, everything from paying for a restock order to selling through distribution at your normal margin to expanding the contents of the box should you surpass your goal. Basically, both the funding goal and the quote above made me feel like not only did you want backers to assume the risk of a new medium with a new casting company, pay upfront by at least a year (china = late as a rule), pay upfront without having even seen the completed sculpts, but also pay to preserve your margins for retail, restock, etc. Suppose the funding goal did not include your normal margins, no money left over for restock, no money to expand options if funding spills over goal, and no money to sell through distribution, but enough so that your only "skin in the game" would be time you would have to spend sending out packages + future sculpting time required to sculpt the heads.
In exchange for your "skin in the game" you get to find out the ins and outs of doing business in a new medium, working with a new caster, and at an all new price point. In addition, if the figures sell well, you always have the option of paying for a restock later, going after retail later, etc. That sounds like a worthwhile trade to me, but maybe I overestimate the value of experience when making a big strategic business decision about the medium you deliver your art in. Maybe much of what you need to know can be found out via Google, talking to others with experience, etc.
Regarding economies of scale, how do miniatures companies get economies of scale? Likely some combo of scooping up more demand by lowering price, and scooping up more demand by making miniatures more valuable (see what Warlord Games has done to the perceived value of Wargames Factory's Apocalypse survivor miniatures by bundling them with a game, could also be producing more of what people want, like big creatures ala Mierce)
Azazelx wrote:
Artemis Black wrote: Guys, please stop asking Tre to add in his existing stock at a discount.
That doesn't help him out 'at all', not only is he losing a lot of money on those sales because of the discount '
Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Note, I don't personally care either way if Tre' offers a discount on existing stock or not in this case, and I do wish him the best in funding - though making enough money for his own metal casting equipment might be a better/more achievable option in the short term than the PVC production.
Two thoughts:
Please please please don't go the whole "I'll cast my own miniatures to save money" route. It is false economy. Tre's comparative advantage is in sculpting miniatures. He should spend the maximum time he can sculpting, and farm out all the other parts of his business to people with comparative advantages in other areas.
It is not clear that you cannot perpetually pull demand from the future with sales. Lots of retailers whole business models are built around sales, because they work. Future sales are speculative (will they really happen?), worth less because of currency depreciation, and worth less because people discount future happiness (ex. do you want a free scoop of ice-cream now or in two-months?), it makes a lot of sense to trade them for sales now.
Fugazi wrote:In that context, would it make more sense for Tre to do a not-Kickstarter pre-order on his own site like North Star has done with Frostgrave?
Yes, this is a great point. Tre, why are you still using Kickstarter? You should just be taking pre-orders on your website at this point. That gives you an instant 5% bonus for very little work.
And finally, I think the make-up of the warband was not optimal. In terms of their value in other systems, you really only get two types of guys per box "medium melee guy" and "archer guy." I would recommend putting in a wizard, an archer, a big two handed weapon type, and a couple of hw+shield guys. The wizard might be a different mold, and only show up once per box (maybe with a couple of head/arm options). In fact, a wizard, two heavy types, 8 hw+shield with swappable weapons& heads, and 2 archers with modular heads would get you a lot more "value" per box in the sense of people being able to use them in a wide variety of rulesets and rpgs. That is much closer to what I would pay $45 usd +shipping for a year in the future in PVC.
In summary, if someone came up to Tre and said "Hey, if you will sculpt six heads, and spend a week or so sending out packages, I'll give you production rights to these excellent figures and experience and contacts working with a Chinese manufacturer in a new medium that is revolutionizing the industry and could revolutionize your business" it would be silly not to take that person up on the deal.
Da Boss wrote: Azazelx: Do you think it could end Tre's business if he relaunches in metal? It seems like his metal kickstarters have been a bit more safe and successful than the plastic ones in the past.
In any case, I agree- I encourage care and conservatism because I'm pretty aware of how important the bottom line is when you're a one man show.
The thing with metal is that it's a known quantity, with known costs - so it'd essentially be like simply making more models, so I don't think it risks Tre's business to relaunch in metal in some form - which would be good to see. I guess the thing to remember is that these vikings were to be the guinea pigs to trial the PVC/Restic/whatever material before Tre launches his planned game. As others have said, though - Vikings/Njorn might not have been the best choice from a market standpoint, and vikings are easy to get in any quantity in a variety of materials from a variety of manufacturers (including RBG!) at a variety of price points without needing to go near PVC, restic or waiting 6-12-18 months for delivery.
Two thoughts:
Please please please don't go the whole "I'll cast my own miniatures to save money" route. It is false economy. Tre's comparative advantage is in sculpting miniatures. He should spend the maximum time he can sculpting, and farm out all the other parts of his business to people with comparative advantages in other areas.
Tre' write a fair bit about his issues and difficulties with casters, and minimum orders needed to restock his products for the website during the long, drawn out aftermath of KS1 and the cancelled KS2. If Tre' controlled the means of production, he'd then be able to offer anything in his catalogue as needed, and essentially cast on demand if need be, much like Heresy or Warlord (on opposite ends of the spectrum) do, with minimised production costs. Tre' is a great sculptor, but he's not a dedicated freelancer at this point. He has his own business with his own website, direct-to-consumer sales, fans, etc. He could cut out a chunk of his own supply chain while having quality control on tap, and theoretically increase his profits per unit and also expand to selling others' ranges under licence.
It is not clear that you cannot perpetually pull demand from the future with sales. Lots of retailers whole business models are built around sales, because they work. Future sales are speculative (will they really happen?), worth less because of currency depreciation, and worth less because people discount future happiness (ex. do you want a free scoop of ice-cream now or in two-months?), it makes a lot of sense to trade them for sales now.
Arty seems to be working from a zero-sum perspective. There's HF stuff I'd like to buy, but I'm waiting for a sale to coincide with when I've got the money to burn. If HF sales were more frequent, I'd buy more HF product, more often. Because there's stuff I like - no end of it on HF's website in fact - I'd happily buy 90% of their range bit by bit - but nothing I need. This applies to many others, including GW. I've bought nine "start collecting" boxes and one of the new army boxes (Chaos Deathtide) because I feel there's worthwhile value/savings on models I'd like to assemble and paint one day - stuff I like, but don't need - the good prices on it all got me spending on GW, which hasn't been my main line of products to buy in quite a few years now.. If the new SC boxes weren't a thing, I wouldn't have bought any of it.
Two thoughts:
Please please please don't go the whole "I'll cast my own miniatures to save money" route. It is false economy. Tre's comparative advantage is in sculpting miniatures. He should spend the maximum time he can sculpting, and farm out all the other parts of his business to people with comparative advantages in other areas.
Tre' write a fair bit about his issues and difficulties with casters, and minimum orders needed to restock his products for the website during the long, drawn out aftermath of KS1 and the cancelled KS2. If Tre' controlled the means of production, he'd then be able to offer anything in his catalogue as needed, and essentially cast on demand if need be, much like Heresy or Warlord (on opposite ends of the spectrum) do, with minimised production costs. Tre' is a great sculptor, but he's not a dedicated freelancer at this point. He has his own business with his own website, direct-to-consumer sales, fans, etc. He could cut out a chunk of his own supply chain while having quality control on tap, and theoretically increase his profits per unit and also expand to selling others' ranges under licence.
Gallahad is completely right. If Tre starts casting in house he'll never get out of the circle. You gave two examples but only one is relevant. Warlord don't have the sculptors do casting, they are big enough to essentially own a casting house. That's not the other end of the spectrum, it's a completely different spectrum.. Heresy however is a very relevant example and I don't think we need to drag why it's so relevant through the mud :|
Tre is a sculptor, that is his most valuable skill. 'Any' time spent doing anything else is a false economy. I wouldn't let Kev pack an envelope or waste time spinning moulds (I also wouldn't be happy if he decided to start doing 'anything' that meant his hands were near molten metal). His time is one of our most valuable commodities, to spend it on anything that isn't his best skill is crazy. When we were sharing an office I even made his tea so he wouldn't be wasting that time (To be fair, my wife and partner probably made more of his tea but you get the gist).
It is not clear that you cannot perpetually pull demand from the future with sales. Lots of retailers whole business models are built around sales, because they work. Future sales are speculative (will they really happen?), worth less because of currency depreciation, and worth less because people discount future happiness (ex. do you want a free scoop of ice-cream now or in two-months?), it makes a lot of sense to trade them for sales now.
Arty seems to be working from a zero-sum perspective. There's HF stuff I'd like to buy, but I'm waiting for a sale to coincide with when I've got the money to burn. If HF sales were more frequent, I'd buy more HF product, more often. Because there's stuff I like - no end of it on HF's website in fact - I'd happily buy 90% of their range bit by bit - but nothing I need. This applies to many others, including GW. I've bought nine "start collecting" boxes and one of the new army boxes (Chaos Deathtide) because I feel there's worthwhile value/savings on models I'd like to assemble and paint one day - stuff I like, but don't need - the good prices on it all got me spending on GW, which hasn't been my main line of products to buy in quite a few years now.. If the new SC boxes weren't a thing, I wouldn't have bought any of it.
If we had more sales 'everyone' would buy during them. The businesses who's models operate on sales have that built in, like the high st stores that have 'closing down sales' every 3 months. You can't just switch a regular business to just having more sales, the more sales you have, the more your product is devalued to the sale price and seen as overpriced during non-sale times. Again, same company example as above.
If Tre adds his entire line to every kickstarter, at a discount 'and' losing the extra 8% in KS fees, then his regular websales between Kickstarters will be even worse. People aren't stupid, if the majority of his sales go to regular fans then they will know to just wait until the next Kickstarter. It's borrowing from yourself in the future. It's not about being 'zero sum', it's about building a long term business model instead of constantly borrowing from yourself and hoping to catch up someday. Again, same example.
There are certain times of year when sales are pretty obviously gong to happen, we have always seen a dip before those times. We combat it by changing up the promotions we do, goody bags, freebies etc (Black Friday we deep discounted a small selection of minis instead of shallow discounting the entire line). as that removes the 'Oh I'll just wait until blah to get x off' mentality.
(Yes, it's a lot more complicated but that's how it almost always works out)
Two thoughts:
Please please please don't go the whole "I'll cast my own miniatures to save money" route. It is false economy. Tre's comparative advantage is in sculpting miniatures. He should spend the maximum time he can sculpting, and farm out all the other parts of his business to people with comparative advantages in other areas.
Tre' write a fair bit about his issues and difficulties with casters, and minimum orders needed to restock his products for the website during the long, drawn out aftermath of KS1 and the cancelled KS2. If Tre' controlled the means of production, he'd then be able to offer anything in his catalogue as needed, and essentially cast on demand if need be, much like Heresy or Warlord (on opposite ends of the spectrum) do, with minimised production costs. Tre' is a great sculptor, but he's not a dedicated freelancer at this point. He has his own business with his own website, direct-to-consumer sales, fans, etc. He could cut out a chunk of his own supply chain while having quality control on tap, and theoretically increase his profits per unit and also expand to selling others' ranges under licence.
Gallahad is completely right. If Tre starts casting in house he'll never get out of the circle. You gave two examples but only one is relevant. Warlord don't have the sculptors do casting, they are big enough to essentially own a casting house. That's not the other end of the spectrum, it's a completely different spectrum.. Heresy however is a very relevant example and I don't think we need to drag why it's so relevant through the mud :|
Tre is a sculptor, that is his most valuable skill. 'Any' time spent doing anything else is a false economy. I wouldn't let Kev pack an envelope or waste time spinning moulds (I also wouldn't be happy if he decided to start doing 'anything' that meant his hands were near molten metal). His time is one of our most valuable commodities, to spend it on anything that isn't his best skill is crazy. When we were sharing an office I even made his tea so he wouldn't be wasting that time (To be fair, my wife and partner probably made more of his tea but you get the gist).
That is some excellent points, Artemis. I think you touched on a very important issue. Time. And where one decides to put his/her time. In any sculptor's case, just like Artemis says, their time should be in the most cost-effective way, which is by sculpting.
Gallahad is completely right. If Tre starts casting in house he'll never get out of the circle. You gave two examples but only one is relevant. Warlord don't have the sculptors do casting, they are big enough to essentially own a casting house. That's not the other end of the spectrum, it's a completely different spectrum.. Heresy however is a very relevant example and I don't think we need to drag why it's so relevant through the mud :|
Tre is a sculptor, that is his most valuable skill. 'Any' time spent doing anything else is a false economy. I wouldn't let Kev pack an envelope or waste time spinning moulds (I also wouldn't be happy if he decided to start doing 'anything' that meant his hands were near molten metal). His time is one of our most valuable commodities, to spend it on anything that isn't his best skill is crazy. When we were sharing an office I even made his tea so he wouldn't be wasting that time (To be fair, my wife and partner probably made more of his tea but you get the gist).
Ok, that's all fair enough and makes sense to a good degree. OTOH, I don't know the finer points of Andy/Heresy's life, but it seems like "The Dragon" was the thing that brought his house down, rather than in-house casting. "The Dragon" is why I think that perhaps the PVC project as it stood dying on the vine is a good thing for Tre'. Still, Hasslefree appears to be doing an order of magnitude better than RBG is, despite Tre' also being an excellent sculptor with a distinct style. Kev obviously has a much wider range of models and genres covered than Tre', but there should surely be more proactive advice that he can get to build his business. To cast, Tre' would need a trustworthy "minion" to do it, which means he'd need to pay an employee, so sales would have to rise by "that much" and so forth before the business can expand. Fair enough.
If we had more sales 'everyone' would buy during them. The businesses who's models operate on sales have that built in, like the high st stores that have 'closing down sales' every 3 months. You can't just switch a regular business to just having more sales, the more sales you have, the more your product is devalued to the sale price and seen as overpriced during non-sale times. Again, same company example as above.
If Tre adds his entire line to every kickstarter, at a discount 'and' losing the extra 8% in KS fees, then his regular websales between Kickstarters will be even worse. People aren't stupid, if the majority of his sales go to regular fans then they will know to just wait until the next Kickstarter. It's borrowing from yourself in the future. It's not about being 'zero sum', it's about building a long term business model instead of constantly borrowing from yourself and hoping to catch up someday. Again, same example.
I don't believe that anyone was suggesting that he discount his entire line during each kickstarter. Curated, themed discounts would be the appropriate way to go. As in "things that go with vikings/njorn" during the "njorn kickstarter". A shaman, a couple of leaders, some more archers, etc. Maybe a "Nickstarter" as some have suggested, but $40k is a huge chunk of change, and we just know that despite the best of intentions a PVCproject going to China would be at least a year late, and then there's all kinds of issues around fulfilment when people don't even feel like they have the protection (ha!) that KS brings.
There are certain times of year when sales are pretty obviously gong to happen, we have always seen a dip before those times. We combat it by changing up the promotions we do, goody bags, freebies etc (Black Friday we deep discounted a small selection of minis instead of shallow discounting the entire line). as that removes the 'Oh I'll just wait until blah to get x off' mentality.
(Yes, it's a lot more complicated but that's how it almost always works out)
That's actually why I didn't buy anything from you guys on Black Friday. A dozen casts each from a half dozen choices wasn't worth my time when there was so much more on offer elsewhere. You had a "proper" sale just before then, as I recall (Adepticon? Gencon?) - but I missed it due to lack of funds (I would have bought some stuff then). I was then planning to buy during the BF one, but it wasn't worth my time, so I spent my money elsewhere instead. And I still haven't made that Hasslefree order. It's just a low priority thing. Models I'd like to have one day and nice sculpts that I'd like to get one day. Much like tons of Reaper's stuff, though - I like them but I don't need them.
If I were to hazard that a really significant number of HF's sales come from a solid number of regular, repeat fans/customers, would I be correct? Because that helps to make your perspective make total sense. I also agree completely that overdoing it hurts your business. Mantic's models are nearly worthless to me. In that I don't perceive (most of) them to have much value as either objects or that I'm willing to pay much at all for them as individual models. They're like Bones. This is more because of restic and terrible quality and quality control than the endless (KS) sales, but I'm in full agreement that constantly adding the previous KS's items to the next one has certainly devalued them.
Gallahad is completely right. If Tre starts casting in house he'll never get out of the circle. You gave two examples but only one is relevant. Warlord don't have the sculptors do casting, they are big enough to essentially own a casting house. That's not the other end of the spectrum, it's a completely different spectrum.. Heresy however is a very relevant example and I don't think we need to drag why it's so relevant through the mud :|
Tre is a sculptor, that is his most valuable skill. 'Any' time spent doing anything else is a false economy. I wouldn't let Kev pack an envelope or waste time spinning moulds (I also wouldn't be happy if he decided to start doing 'anything' that meant his hands were near molten metal). His time is one of our most valuable commodities, to spend it on anything that isn't his best skill is crazy. When we were sharing an office I even made his tea so he wouldn't be wasting that time (To be fair, my wife and partner probably made more of his tea but you get the gist).
Ok, that's all fair enough and makes sense to a good degree. OTOH, I don't know the finer points of Andy/Heresy's life, but it seems like "The Dragon" was the thing that brought his house down, rather than in-house casting. "The Dragon" is why I think that perhaps the PVC project as it stood dying on the vine is a good thing for Tre'. Still, Hasslefree appears to be doing an order of magnitude better than RBG is, despite Tre' also being an excellent sculptor with a distinct style. Kev obviously has a much wider range of models and genres covered than Tre', but there should surely be more proactive advice that he can get to build his business. To cast, Tre' would need a trustworthy "minion" to do it, which means he'd need to pay an employee, so sales would have to rise by "that much" and so forth before the business can expand. Fair enough.
I can assure you that despite my normal level of sarcasm the next bit is said without. Tre is a personal friend (not sure if you knew), I give my business advice to him direct, that's why I 'm not offering it here. I was mostly trying to head off, what to me is, contradictory/worse advice.
I also don't really want a discussion about Heresy on a public forum, again, personal connections etc. Suffice to say that I don' believe the Dragon is the problem. I do absolutely agree that the PVC KS not coming to fruition is probably best for Tre though.
The only time I'd consider getting in-house casting would be if our casting bills equalled or came close to the combination of wages of the person we'd need to cast plus metal cost for the year. There's literally no other reason to do it. My skills (for want of a less vain word) are also needed elsewhere for 40hrs a week so I'm not doing it. I'd then need to find a caster who can do the same level of work, which isn't as easy as it may sound, as the casters we currently use, imo, are the best in the world, so that isn't easy either. Plus there's initial machinery costs.
(I'm also sending ya a PM)
Unrelated, are we taking up this thread for the relaunch or will there be a new one (Can anyone start one? No idea about the forum protocols yet).
Welp. Tre' has officially relaunched in metal already. He's listing as EU-friendly, so perhaps he's getting HF to help out with the distribution (Griffin as the Casters?)
Sadly, it's a 9 day campaign, so it ends before I get paid again (already spent on DW, and other money earmarked for SWKS ending tomorrow). Well, and I don't need more vikings or northmen. I guess the short-short timeline will have it ending when the cancelled PVC version would have?
Unrelated, are we taking up this thread for the relaunch or will there be a new one (Can anyone start one? No idea about the forum protocols yet).
Yes, anyone can start one. It's usual etiquette that the person who starts a KS thread does their best to keep it updated with updates, a few pics, stretch goals, etc - go for it!
Azazelx wrote: Welp. Tre' has officially relaunched in metal already. He's listing as EU-friendly, so perhaps he's getting HF to help out with the distribution (Griffin as the Casters?)
Yeah, I'm the big EU friendly button It'll be the usual production though as far as I'm aware, we'll just import and distribute to avoid individual customs charges for people.
)
