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2016/03/01 08:05:11
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - tre manor's foray into plastics is up on Kickstarter
Artemis Black wrote: Guys, please stop asking Tre to add in his existing stock at a discount.
That doesn't help him out 'at all', not only is he losing a lot of money on those sales because of the discount '
Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Note, I don't personally care either way if Tre' offers a discount on existing stock or not in this case, and I do wish him the best in funding - though making enough money for his own metal casting equipment might be a better/more achievable option in the short term than the PVC production.
Ian Sturrock wrote:I have clicked "Remind Me". If it looks likely to fund, I'll chuck in a few dollars just to support it, but without pledging for a reward.
If you don't want any reward, why not chip in now and get it closer to that 'hey, looks like it's going to fund' point for other people?
tre manor wrote:
As for the price per mini, the price is set in such a way as to allow me to restock the product and be able to afford to sell the box set through distribution ( which takes a GIANT bite out of the overall profit ) and also to be able to expand the contents of the box through funding in Kickstarter.
Economy of scale is no joke. I just don't have the support base or running capital to afford to sell minis for less than what i have offered them for here. If I could I would.
Wehrkind wrote:Any chance of offering existing stuff at a bit of a discount as add ons?
pancakeonions wrote:I second (again!) the call for add ons. Tre, if you could make your catalog available as add ons, maybe for a bit of a discount
What Arty said. Exalted.
Azazelx wrote:Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Can he afford to 'earn less'? All signs point to no.
I do think a way for people to up their pledges beyond $45 without just getting duplicates of the box set is important for this to fund. How best to do that is something Tre knows best! Perhaps recent sculpts he has stock of or could easily restock would help. Whatever makes the most sense, but there needs to be an avenue to increase the average value per pledge!
2016/03/01 16:45:20
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - tre manor's foray into plastics is up on Kickstarter
Ian Sturrock wrote:I have clicked "Remind Me". If it looks likely to fund, I'll chuck in a few dollars just to support it, but without pledging for a reward.
If you don't want any reward, why not chip in now and get it closer to that 'hey, looks like it's going to fund' point for other people?
tre manor wrote:
As for the price per mini, the price is set in such a way as to allow me to restock the product and be able to afford to sell the box set through distribution ( which takes a GIANT bite out of the overall profit ) and also to be able to expand the contents of the box through funding in Kickstarter.
Economy of scale is no joke. I just don't have the support base or running capital to afford to sell minis for less than what i have offered them for here. If I could I would.
Wehrkind wrote:Any chance of offering existing stuff at a bit of a discount as add ons?
pancakeonions wrote:I second (again!) the call for add ons. Tre, if you could make your catalog available as add ons, maybe for a bit of a discount
What Arty said. Exalted.
Azazelx wrote:Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Can he afford to 'earn less'? All signs point to no.
All I am saying is that if he can do it, it would be nice. If he can't, then the answer to my question would be "No, sorry, no chance as I wouldn't be able to make extra money to put towards the KS anyway." That's fine too. The question is a reasonable one, however, as many companies offer existing models at a discount to boost KS levels. See Mierce and Shield Wolf, for instance.
I don't know about most people, but I don't need >3 sets of the same models, especially since I don't have a particular plan in mind. If Tre had another thing on offer for which I could give him money I would be glad to do it.
You and Artemis might want to dial it back a little, Vermis. Most everyone in the thread is very supportive of Tre's project here and trying to come up with ways to help. I get what you guys are saying, but it isn't being delivered in a very pleasant manner.
Having seen the other projects and the fulfillment difficulties, I'd imagine Tre has some painful experience with offering back catalogue minis to backers. He's made a loss on previous KS and only delivered through dogged perseverance. I guess right now he's trying to make a KS model that works for him, as a small operation. His previous limited KS were in metal and seemed to be reasonably successful (though the Barbarian Hordes one hit problems).
I guess moving to plastic is a gamble. The sad part is that the work on the sculpts is already done because that's what people expect - that's a lot of labour hours for a one man show like Tre. So if it doesn't fund that will be a kick in the teeth.
It's sad that when a KS creator tries to be conservative and careful (as people demand in other KS when creators overpromise) they hit this problem. I mean it's psychologically understandable and there's plenty of case studies to suggest being honest with your customers is not effective, but it's still a bit sad.
I know that I am really biased because I'm a huge RBG fanboy, but I don't see it as "just" a customer style relationship in this case - I think like a lot of people backing here I just love the art and craftsmanship in these minis and I want to see them made and on the market.
Agreed on all points. I kind of wish I had more money to dump on this just because I like Tre's stuff, but I just don't have the cash flow now. I suppose one could always plan to go in for 2-3 sets and sell the extras they don't need later if they have the free cash around.
Aye - that's my problem too. I've a lot of expenses right now. I might still up my pledge but I've got to look at what I've got in the tank first - I've to fly to the states for a wedding shortly and then pay for my own wedding in July.
I do get annoyed with the attitude many people have toward kickstarters that the purpose is to get an amazing deal by pre-ordering something years in advance, with tons of exciting unlocks and stretch goals to heighten the experience. I think there is something to be said for people supporting a project because they want it to succeed and help make something that might not otherwise be made.
Having said that, I don't think that is the issue here. For me, this doesn't seem like a product that should succeed. Are people really going to pay $55 at retail for 15 PVC models, with only 5 unique sculpts? Especially when they pay around $30 for boxes of 20-ish plastic models that can be assembled with a great deal more variety. So people who want a lot of models will go that route, for both variety and cost.
If they contention is that these have much better detail, then people will probably want to see a production miniature to demonstrate that. But even so, if the idea is that these are as good as the metals at less than half the price, I'm still not sure that is much of a selling point. Buying individual metals get you the exact figures you want, with no repeats. Most people who only need a handful of something will probably prefer that, even if a little more expensive.
I'm just not quite sure what group this does target. However, if this were the evil barbarians, I might be in because I like those. But only if there were a little more variety. Say, one unarmored with a weapon in two hands (separate weapon head could be axe, hammer, etc), one unarmored with separate right hand (with different weapon options, one armored with weapon in two hands, one armored with separate right hand, and one archer. Separate heads like these. That gives enough variety that more people might buy several boxes. But then some people that just want about 10 similar looking guys are kind of out of luck and probably wouldn't buy at all, so maybe that's worse.
2016/03/01 17:20:51
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - tre manor's foray into plastics is up on Kickstarter
Ah darn, it's been cancelled - however, there's an opportunity to come back stronger from that, as the Shieldwolf campaign is a really good example of! Maybe rethink things a bit and target the offerings so that people can pledge more.
2016/03/01 17:29:58
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - tre manor's foray into plastics is up on Kickstarter
Well, PP sells 10 PVC Wolves of Orboros for 55$ (42$ with discount at Miniature market. Those only have 4 unique sculpts (ignoring the Reeves options as those are replacements, not extra). So 15 models for the same model and more options seems like a good deal. Perhaps not compared to some plastic models, but then Tre often has better quality sculpting than others, at least for certain tastes.
On your other point about the reason for Kickstarters, if I am going to pay upfront for a product that I don't get to see, might not ever exist, and I won't even find out for sure for a year or more, yes, I expect a discount. I have some KS rewards stretching into the 2-3 years before delivery at this point, some of which I am starting to think I will never see. If I had to pay full retail to maybe never get anything I would not be backing anything.
I put a lot of trust in Tre, and I would like this project to succeed for him because of him as must as because of the models. However, I care about the well being and success of many people, and the vast majority don't get scarce dollars just to help with a project.
There is a platform for funding people and projects with no expected return other than the warm glow of seeing their project come to life. It is called "Go Fund Me". People seem to get money out of it, but I am unaware of it being a place to start new business project successfully.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Man, I spend all that time on a post, and the subject matter disappears before I finish.
Well, hopefully he does relaunch, but with completed model sculpts to show. I suspect seeing the heads, weapons and bodies finished up will get people more excited.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/01 17:31:37
Well with great regret I am announcing the end of this campaign today. As much as I would like for it to succeed I just do not think it can as it is planned and presented. Things such as they are I would have to remake the existing figures and use more mold space which may or may not exist. Trying to introduce the back catalogue as rewards will only undermine my relationship with retailers and further dilute my regular income source but worst of all would actually undermine the overall goal of this campaign by destroying the margins.
I want to thank everyone who backed this project for their support and encouragement. I also want to say that I do very deeply regret the disappointment the cacnellation of this campaign must surely cause. I wish things were different but such as they are this campaign will not be able to succeed and I desperately need to get to work on a project that will succeed and start moving forward. I have spent the past year designing, redesigning, sculpting, and resculpting these same figures over and over again. I just do not have the will to do it again right now on the off chance that I will get it right and possibly attract enough backers with interest to fund the project.
I have not given up on the effort of plastics production. I will find a way to fund a test run on my own to prove the process and my ability to produce great plastic minis. Right now however I am just going to try to fund these offered miniatures in metal and move on to the next project.
Again I thank you all for your encouragement and support and I deeply apologize for the disappointment of this cancellation.
Cheers,
Tre'
Another thought... what about going with the super secret project sculpts (which you've done quite a few of I think?) but in metal? People have shown they're willing to pay for your sculpts in metal, and it would be very doable with your current production partners!
2016/03/01 17:33:05
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - tre manor's foray into plastics is up on Kickstarter
While I do dearly appreciate the sentiment and encouragemnt it offers I really would not want people digging deeply JUST so the project can succeed. I understand the sentiment and dearly appreciate it but the goal IS to make something that yall actually want, can use and will attract new customers as well.
I have given this a LOT of thought over the past couple days and have decided today to end the project. Resculpting these figures is just beyond me right now. I would rather start over completely from nothing and make something that will work for the effort better.
if anything I have learned a lot from this experience which will surely help my next effort.
For now though I am going to fund these figures as single piece miniatures and move on to the next project.
2016/03/01 17:33:53
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - tre manor's foray into plastics is up on Kickstarter
Well with great regret I am announcing the end of this campaign today. As much as I would like for it to succeed I just do not think it can as it is planned and presented. Things such as they are I would have to remake the existing figures and use more mold space which may or may not exist. Trying to introduce the back catalogue as rewards will only undermine my relationship with retailers and further dilute my regular income source but worst of all would actually undermine the overall goal of this campaign by destroying the margins.
I want to thank everyone who backed this project for their support and encouragement. I also want to say that I do very deeply regret the disappointment the cacnellation of this campaign must surely cause. I wish things were different but such as they are this campaign will not be able to succeed and I desperately need to get to work on a project that will succeed and start moving forward. I have spent the past year designing, redesigning, sculpting, and resculpting these same figures over and over again. I just do not have the will to do it again right now on the off chance that I will get it right and possibly attract enough backers with interest to fund the project.
I have not given up on the effort of plastics production. I will find a way to fund a test run on my own to prove the process and my ability to produce great plastic minis. Right now however I am just going to try to fund these offered miniatures in metal and move on to the next project.
Again I thank you all for your encouragement and support and I deeply apologize for the disappointment of this cancellation.
Cheers,
Tre'
2016/03/01 17:35:22
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - tre manor's foray into plastics is up on Kickstarter
As I said in the update comments, a real shame this didn't take off.
I'll be waiting for the next project. I think it takes integrity and honesty to cancel a project instead of over-promising and dealing with the issues later in some shoddy way. You've gone up in my estimation Tre, and I hope this doesn't take the creative wind out of your sails.
I will also back this in metal.
As for the Super Secret Project, I really hope we can see this making it into the light of day soon. The stuff you've shown so far was all wonderful and it's a very tempting setting and look you've got going on there. But I hope you'll take it carefully too - this seems to be the real goal and I'd hate to see you get burned on it too.
tre manor wrote: If anything I have learned a lot from this experience which will surely help my next effort.
For now though I am going to fund these figures as single piece miniatures and move on to the next project.
I think that is a good approach, as Wehrkind says!
tre manor wrote: I am actually considering the SDSP in metal now more than ever. I won;t commit it to that yet, but it is a possibility.
Da Boss wrote: As for the Super Secret Project, I really hope we can see this making it into the light of day soon. The stuff you've shown so far was all wonderful and it's a very tempting setting and look you've got going on there. But I hope you'll take it carefully too - this seems to be the real goal and I'd hate to see you get burned on it too.
Agreed here, too - and honestly, I think just making the figures and using compatible Frostgrave rules could be a great way to get over the last big hurdle (rule design) since the sculpts and concepts were just awesome!
2016/03/01 17:53:04
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - Sculpts by Tre Manor - Cancelled, will relaunch soon
Artemis Black wrote: Guys, please stop asking Tre to add in his existing stock at a discount.
That doesn't help him out 'at all', not only is he losing a lot of money on those sales because of the discount '
Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish..
*grin* Thanks.
It's not quite as simple as that, there's a number of groups of people who buy in a sale. Probably the largest group are those were already thinking about buying stuff or had a wishlist etc and were just encouraged to buy today instead of next week or next month, those are losing you money. Another group, especially in a kickstarter for multiple weeks are basically all of your regular customers. Those are definitely losing you money. The smallest group of any sale is the one of people who would never have bought otherwise, those don't outweigh the above.
2016/03/01 18:31:03
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - tre manor's foray into plastics is up on Kickstarter
I would buy SDSP in any medium. Well maybe not cheese.
Plastic would be really nice though. But I guess you need certain economies of scale for it, and people are super skeptical of PVC as a medium due to bad experiences with other companies.
Bummer. I was one of your fans very eager to see your work in plastic. The SDSP in metal is a bit of a disappointment, but I'll be checking it out either way.
Please do make sure that the box for the SDSP has adequate room to properly store metal figures. Either room for us to put in a foam tray, or very carefully designed plastic trays, akin to Zombicide and other CMON offerings, so that the figures can be stored in the game.
Thanks and good luck!
I play...
Sigh.
Who am I kidding? I only paint these days...
2016/03/01 19:31:42
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - Sculpts by Tre Manor - Cancelled, will relaunch soon
well like I said the SDSP is NOT confirmed for metal. Truth be told I would vastly prefer it to be in oplastic for a variety of reasons, not least of which is it allows me to afford the big beasties i want to be included in the game.
Cheers Jorny Thanks!
2016/03/01 19:36:40
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - tre manor's foray into plastics is up on Kickstarter
tre manor wrote: I am actually considering the SDSP in metal now more than ever. I won;t commit it to that yet, but it is a possibility.
..now that's what I wanted to hear!
Hopefully you decide to make that happen!
It is disappointing - and I'm bummed for Tre - but at the same time - I find his metal minis to be ridiculously affordable - so I'm not too put off by the idea of the SDSP in metal. And the limited modularity for the grunts (that he was going for in this campaign) would be doable in metal I would think.
2016/03/01 19:56:38
Subject: WarBands of the Cold North - tre manor's foray into plastics is up on Kickstarter
Artemis Black wrote: Guys, please stop asking Tre to add in his existing stock at a discount.
That doesn't help him out 'at all', not only is he losing a lot of money on those sales because of the discount '
Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish..
*grin* Thanks.
It's not quite as simple as that, there's a number of groups of people who buy in a sale. Probably the largest group are those were already thinking about buying stuff or had a wishlist etc and were just encouraged to buy today instead of next week or next month, those are losing you money. Another group, especially in a kickstarter for multiple weeks are basically all of your regular customers. Those are definitely losing you money. The smallest group of any sale is the one of people who would never have bought otherwise, those don't outweigh the above.
Well.. as much as I love the look of Hasslefree stuff, I have never bought it.. and probably won't unless there's a sale. So there's that for what it's worth.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not sure what the SDSP thing is but I'll say this..
There's been a LOT of vikings released lately. I like Tre's sculpts a lot. I would back a Tre Manor KS if it were.. say.. Gnolls (hint?) or other fantasy creatures in some form. I have barbarians, vikings, and plainsmen coming out my ears from many companies though.. and PVC isn't overly appealing if I'm being completely honest.
Also.. I thought this KS was just to fund a couple of models. Was it supposed to evolve into a game? That wasn't very clear from the go. As I read it.. it was literally just to fund a couple of Vikings in PVC.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/01 20:01:29
Yea, the question on whether it makes money is much more complicated than Artemis makes out. If you sell 20% more at a 10% discount you might come out ahead. Some of the increase might be sales moved forward as Artemis says, and lose you compared to full price. Some are going to be people who wanted X models, but buy X+Y because of a sale. (Who hasn't spent 20$ more than you intended because you wanted to save 5$ on free shipping?) Some people are going to be new customers who weren't sure about jumping in due to price, but now that they have them are life long fans. (That described me 6 years ago when I got my first 5 or so on sale.)
Finally, if you use the sales to fund a Kickstarter on a more profitable line that you couldn't have done without it, then it is a good investment and makes money.
So yea, choosing the right price is a tricky proposition.
Azazelx wrote:Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Can he afford to 'earn less'? All signs point to no.
And then clearly $40k is too big an ask. I've spent a thousands of dollars of money on models I would never have bought because of and during during sales. That's how they work, and why they work. Sales can still be very profitable, if done with thought.
