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 Wehrkind wrote:
Yea, the question on whether it makes money is much more complicated than Artemis makes out..

I said it 'was' complicated. And it's still a terrible idea.

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Wehrkind wrote:
Yea, the question on whether it makes money is much more complicated than Artemis makes out..

I said it 'was' complicated. And it's still a terrible idea.

Terrible depends on all the variables I described and more. You say complicated, but you seem to mean "simple enough that I know for certain despite my distance from Tre's finances, supply situation and customer base." It might be terrible for your model line, and it might be alright for Tre's. He probably knows.

Obviously having sales helps make money, or else every company wouldn't do it all the time. It is ridiculous to claim that having a sale is necessarily bad for business.

 Wehrkind wrote:
Well, PP sells 10 PVC Wolves of Orboros for 55$ (42$ with discount at Miniature market. Those only have 4 unique sculpts (ignoring the Reeves options as those are replacements, not extra). So 15 models for the same model and more options seems like a good deal. Perhaps not compared to some plastic models, but then Tre often has better quality sculpting than others, at least for certain tastes.

Of course, those Wolves are part of an army for WarmaHordes, so players of that/those extremely popular wargame will buy the correct figures for it.

I think this KS (and relaunching it) is a bad idea, and I fear it'll end RBG via the sunk costs on a failed line of overly-expensive PVC figures. They might be well sculpted, but no-one has any particular reason to purchase them over 1-2 boxes of HIPS models unless they're fans of RBG and/or the sculpts. As we've seen, the number of people who are fans of RBG and are also willing to kick in $45 a set aren't enough to get this funded. I can't see how they'll be a viable retail product.

I get it that people are fans of RBG, they like Tre' and they want to see him succeed. I am and do as well. I just have a real concern that this could end him, and well-meaning supporters encouraging him could contribute to that. Better to purchase metal casting facilities so Tre' can (literally) do things in-house, saving a ton of money, and possibly even expand his range to things like Hasslefree, Heresy, models, etc under licence as a US source in the same way that others offer a limited selection of RBG models from the UK nowadays.

 tre manor wrote:
I am actually considering the SDSP in metal now more than ever. I won;t commit it to that yet, but it is a possibility.

We may be biased, Tre, but we happen to think spin cast metal is awesome!

 Wehrkind wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Wehrkind wrote:
Yea, the question on whether it makes money is much more complicated than Artemis makes out..

I said it 'was' complicated. And it's still a terrible idea.

Terrible depends on all the variables I described and more. You say complicated, but you seem to mean "simple enough that I know for certain despite my distance from Tre's finances, supply situation and customer base." It might be terrible for your model line, and it might be alright for Tre's. He probably knows.

My distance from those things is not very far.

Wehrkind wrote:
(General anti-existing range stuff in spoiler.)

You and Artemis might want to dial it back a little, Vermis. Most everyone in the thread is very supportive of Tre's project here and trying to come up with ways to help. I get what you guys are saying, but it isn't being delivered in a very pleasant manner.

Da Boss wrote:Ah, but that's Vermis. It's part of his charm?

That was me being pleasant.

If you want more of an explanation of the facepalm smiley, it's basically what's right there in that little quote sequence: Tre says "guys, honestly, I can't offer these cheaper or put in a load of add-ons and discounts" and in the next few replies people say "Hey Tre, put in some add-ons at a discount".

[Edit: redacted]

But I don't think Tre's to blame for other problems that hit this kickstarter. I think there's too much of an ingrained expectation of discounts, freebies and add-ons in a lot of wargaming kickstarters; and I think it creates too many problems for kickstarters that avoid it and are ignored before funding, and kickstarters that follow it and run out of money, or into other problems, after funding.
That's another reason I contributed. I don't think the discounts-n-addons style of KS is especially sustainable, but I don't expect them to disappear any time soon. But I've seen more of these smaller, simpler KSs lately and I'd like to help them along a little. I see them as 'real' KSs, or at least more in the spirit of what Kickstarter was apparently meant to be.

Also, I think there was far too much misunderstanding about what these minis were supposed to be, especially what 'plastic' meant. People say 'this isn't like HIPS kits with a gazillion optional bits'. Well, where did it say that it was meant to be like that? As said, I agree that the options seem a little lacking, but this isn't a HIPS kit, for building big armies with no undercuts in 'em, besides anything else. It's there in the kickstarter: "Njorn warband set". Your mileage may vary, but that says 'skirmish' to me.
And all the confusion in this topic over the material - it's like CMoN or Mantic or PP or Zombicide or... Strewth. Has everyone tried every type of PVC from every manufacturer, except me? Otherwise, how would you know?
To be honest, I only know bendy PVC (horrible) and trollcast (decent). I have only Tre's word on the PVC he's got plans for, but if he's been testing for four years and gives it the green light, I'd be willing to take a punt on it.

So not HIPS, but plastic that allows undercuts and prices at $3/£2 a mini, etc. - I dunno about anyone else, but it looks like a cheaper alternative to metal, to me. One that retains most of Tre's style and sculpt detail, that made the RBG range so admired.

Hopefully he can inject a bit more variety into whichever sculpts make their debut in PVC. And that's it.

Azazelx: Do you think it could end Tre's business if he relaunches in metal? It seems like his metal kickstarters have been a bit more safe and successful than the plastic ones in the past.

In any case, I agree- I encourage care and conservatism because I'm pretty aware of how important the bottom line is when you're a one man show.

MLaw: The SDSP is not viking orientated from what I can see. Factions include Barbarians, Mutants, Amazons and Lizards and very cool and unique looking Undead. It seems to somewhat be influenced by the likes of Conan and Darksun, but that's not the only place it's taking influences from. There's a thread about it in this forum but it's pretty long, but there's a couple of prototype figures in there.

Vermis: Nice post, I agree with pretty much everything you've said there but especially about the pressure on creators for unsustainable projects. But I think the others are also right, because as you see here, people just don't reward conservative KS with funds. It's sad but it's part of human psychology. It's a real dilemma and I think it's one of the things people can justifiably grumble about KS for, because in some ways it's allowed people to crowd out the market with promises and air, leading to people becoming disillusioned and pledging less on projects like this, which (to me anyway) is exactly the sort of campaign KS was built for. So instead of taking the risk out of planning and producing minis, it's adding risk and stress to the whole procedure.

People are probably too professional to do it, but I'd love to read a discussion from various creators about what going through the KS meatgrinder is like for them.

With respect to Kickstarter and sales, it is worth noting that you pay part of your margin to Kickstarter. A 20% discount on Kickstarter is 30% right off the top. For small companies that can't benefit very much from economy of scale, this can pinch.

An expectation of a discount is reasonable on the one hand, given the inherent risk a customer assumes via crowdfunding, but the expectation has really been fueled by established companies like CMoN.

Regardless, the expectation of a discount makes it harder for small companies to be successful on Kickstarter. Not impossible, just harder and inherently more risky.

In that context, would it make more sense for Tre to do a not-Kickstarter pre-order on his own site like North Star has done with Frostgrave?

Just to give some context, I know Wehrkind personally and he is close to finishing his PhD in economics, so when he says "Under these circumstances a sale can actually make you money" he's talking about things in that light. I know Artemis is also knowledgeable from directly being in the industry - but I just wanted to mention that context! Also, to Vermis point - Wehrkind also has a fully painted fantasy army that is absolutely chock full of RBG models. He's supported Tre's business more than any single person I know. So, I think you might be misunderstanding a genuine suggestion from a huge fan for something else!

Folks were just suggesting ways to get the campaign moving, and because you do have to wait months for the models, existing products that are offered as add-ons are usually discounted a bit - otherwise you'd just get them off the webstore for immediate delivery, instead! I don't think anyone wants Tre to make a huge discount on his already affordable range - people were just suggesting ways to get the campaign moving. I'm very happy to see him planning to relaunch it in metal - as others have said, I have found his metal range already quite affordable, and of excellent quality!

 tre manor wrote:
well like I said the SDSP is NOT confirmed for metal. Truth be told I would vastly prefer it to be in oplastic for a variety of reasons, not least of which is it allows me to afford the big beasties i want to be included in the game.

Cheers Jorny Thanks!

Tre - As suggested elsewhere, what about making the big beasts in PVC if things go really well, but the initial infantry in metal? Best of both worlds!

 RiTides wrote:
Just to give some context, I know Wehrkind personally and he is close to finishing his PhD in economics, so when he says "Under these circumstances a sale can actually make you money" he's talking about things in that light. I know Artemis is also knowledgeable from directly being in the industry - but I just wanted to mention that context! Also, to Vermis point - Wehrkind also has a fully painted fantasy army that is absolutely chock full of RBG models. He's supported Tre's business more than any single person I know. So, I think you might be misunderstanding a genuine suggestion from a huge fan for something else!

Folks were just suggesting ways to get the campaign moving, and because you do have to wait months for the models, existing products that are offered as add-ons are usually discounted a bit - otherwise you'd just get them off the webstore for immediate delivery, instead! I don't think anyone wants Tre to make a huge discount on his already affordable range - people were just suggesting ways to get the campaign moving. I'm very happy to see him planning to relaunch it in metal - as others have said, I have found his metal range already quite affordable, and of excellent quality!

 tre manor wrote:
well like I said the SDSP is NOT confirmed for metal. Truth be told I would vastly prefer it to be in oplastic for a variety of reasons, not least of which is it allows me to afford the big beasties i want to be included in the game.

Cheers Jorny Thanks!

Tre - As suggested elsewhere, what about making the big beasts in PVC if things go really well, but the initial infantry in metal? Best of both worlds!

Wait.. I keep hearing about big beasties.. wasn't this campaign just for a few Vikings? I asked this earlier.. if other things were planned, not mentioning that is a huge mistake.. I'm sure I'm not alone in not really needing Vikings at the moment but anything else I would certainly take a look at.

Check out this thread, MLaw!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/578689.page

 RiTides wrote:


Tre - As suggested elsewhere, what about making the big beasts in PVC if things go really well, but the initial infantry in metal? Best of both worlds!

That is a brilliant idea - I hope that happens!

 RiTides wrote:
Also, to Vermis point - Wehrkind also has a fully painted fantasy army that is absolutely chock full of RBG models. He's supported Tre's business more than any single person I know. So, I think you might be misunderstanding a genuine suggestion from a huge fan for something else!

Withdrawn with apologies.

 RiTides wrote:
Check out this thread, MLaw!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/578689.page

Thanks for the link

So, I click-ran through it looking at the pictures (which I had done previously) and still didn't see any big beasties other than a bunch of putty on an armature early on. I did see a very very very nice Lizardman.. which probably would've pulled a few bucks from me.. but I also didn't read 25 pages of the thread.. (I did skim a bit).

The structure of the proposed game (which I assume is the later KS and not this one) sounds great.. Especially if it means real lizardfolk and reptile minions that are kinda like D&D troglodytes (oh man I hope that's how that plays out).

I also see that a few people suggested that this KS be monsters and a few people talked him out of that.. which.. had it been monsters I would've probably auto-pledged..

I saw mutants.. which.. are kinda weird but usable. Cultists.. which are very Robert E Howard .. which .. awesome.. Zombies.. eh. As nice as they are I think I'm at saturation levels..

I also caught a bit of the woes Tre is going through ..or was.. dunno.. but I'll be putting in the order I've been putting off when I get my tax money.. I wish I had done so when the HQ adventurers were still available :/

Probably best to talk about that project over in that thread, going forward.

Agreed, and simultaneous to your post MLaw I actually compiled all the pics from that thread here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/720/578689.page#8494660

Note that the Vikings being discussed in this thread are for Tre's normal range, not a part of the universe being discussed over there.

 Alpharius wrote:
Probably best to talk about that project over in that thread, going forward.

So.. none of that stuff was intended for this? That was why the topic came up.. people were mentioning that stuff here and I was getting confused..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
Agreed, and simultaneous to your post MLaw I actually compiled all the pics from that thread here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/720/578689.page#8494660

Note that the Vikings being discussed in this thread are for Tre's normal range, not a part of the universe being discussed over there.

Okay.. that makes sense.. some of the comments led me to believe otherwise..

The context of things was, if he decided to launch that project in PVC, this project would have been a test of the material. But it looks like the reception to Tre's sculpts in PVC was not as good as it could have been... so perhaps both projects will now be done using traditional materials. We'll just have to see what Tre decides!

 RiTides wrote:
The context of things was, if he decided to launch that project in PVC, this project would have been a test of the material. But it looks like the reception to Tre's sculpts in PVC was not as good as it could have been... so perhaps both projects will now be done using traditional materials. We'll just have to see what Tre decides!

I don't know if that's fair. I'd say the reception to more Vikings was not as good as it was expected. I'm not a huge fan of PVC, but $3 per minis is quite reasonable if the minis are things I don't already have a ton of or could buy for at a third of the price per mini. Monsters? I love Tre's monsters, but would want something newish. If he wants to stick to humans, maybe some sort of civilization that hasn't been done to death? Depends on what the sculpts look like, but he usually nails it.

Vikings? Er...
Barbarians? Uh...
Knights? Too many already.
Romans? It's been done.
Zombies? I don't think...
Pirates? nah.
Zombie Pirates? :Rolleyes:
Orcs? No, thanks.
Goblins? Nope.
Dwarfs? Please stop.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
The context of things was, if he decided to launch that project in PVC, this project would have been a test of the material. But it looks like the reception to Tre's sculpts in PVC was not as good as it could have been... so perhaps both projects will now be done using traditional materials. We'll just have to see what Tre decides!

I don't know if that's fair. I'd say the reception to more Vikings was not as good as it was expected. I'm not a huge fan of PVC, but $3 per minis is quite reasonable if the minis are things I don't already have a ton of or could buy for at a third of the price per mini. Monsters? I love Tre's monsters, but would want something newish. If he wants to stick to humans, maybe some sort of civilization that hasn't been done to death? Depends on what the sculpts look like, but he usually nails it.

Vikings? Er...
Barbarians? Uh...
Knights? Too many already.
Romans? It's been done.
Zombies? I don't think...
Pirates? nah.
Zombie Pirates? :Rolleyes:
Orcs? No, thanks.
Goblins? Nope.
Dwarfs? Please stop.

Pretty much this :/ It seems like 90% of the fantasy KS projects the last .. maybe ever.. have been something on this list or a combination. None of these are bad subjects to produce.. but.. it's what everyone's doing. I think the idea is more that all of those low hanging fruit might've been picked already..

Honestly, I would go nuts for werewolves or dragonmen, but I suspect even those are saturated at this point.



Hmmm... If Tre resculpted Wargods' range and produced it in PVC? All in.


Heck, get Fitz on the phone. PVC Wargods sounds like a thing that should happen.

Hey guys, as noted earlier I think this thread should focus on Tre's Warband shown in the OP. For discussion of other things he could work on, please jump over here where he's already shown some really creative stuff:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/720/578689.page#8494660

Cheers!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
The context of things was, if he decided to launch that project in PVC, this project would have been a test of the material. But it looks like the reception to Tre's sculpts in PVC was not as good as it could have been... so perhaps both projects will now be done using traditional materials. We'll just have to see what Tre decides!

I don't know if that's fair. I'd say the reception to more Vikings was not as good as it was expected. I'm not a huge fan of PVC, but $3 per minis is quite reasonable if the minis are things I don't already have a ton of or could buy for at a third of the price per mini. Monsters? I love Tre's monsters, but would want something newish. If he wants to stick to humans, maybe some sort of civilization that hasn't been done to death? Depends on what the sculpts look like, but he usually nails it.

Vikings? Er...
Barbarians? Uh...
Knights? Too many already.
Romans? It's been done.
Zombies? I don't think...
Pirates? nah.
Zombie Pirates? :Rolleyes:
Orcs? No, thanks.
Goblins? Nope.
Dwarfs? Please stop.

Nobody makes elves.

Below is my surprising, long winded, and likely unpopular advice and thoughts on the project.

tre manor wrote:As for the price per mini, the price is set in such a way as to allow me to restock the product and be able to afford to sell the box set through distribution ( which takes a GIANT bite out of the overall profit ) and also to be able to expand the contents of the box through funding in Kickstarter.

Economy of scale is no joke. I just don't have the support base or running capital to afford to sell minis for less than what i have offered them for here. If I could I would.

I think this points out one problem with the project: the size of the funding goal. It sounds like there was quite a bit of margin baked into that goal, everything from paying for a restock order to selling through distribution at your normal margin to expanding the contents of the box should you surpass your goal. Basically, both the funding goal and the quote above made me feel like not only did you want backers to assume the risk of a new medium with a new casting company, pay upfront by at least a year (china = late as a rule), pay upfront without having even seen the completed sculpts, but also pay to preserve your margins for retail, restock, etc. Suppose the funding goal did not include your normal margins, no money left over for restock, no money to expand options if funding spills over goal, and no money to sell through distribution, but enough so that your only "skin in the game" would be time you would have to spend sending out packages + future sculpting time required to sculpt the heads.

In exchange for your "skin in the game" you get to find out the ins and outs of doing business in a new medium, working with a new caster, and at an all new price point. In addition, if the figures sell well, you always have the option of paying for a restock later, going after retail later, etc. That sounds like a worthwhile trade to me, but maybe I overestimate the value of experience when making a big strategic business decision about the medium you deliver your art in. Maybe much of what you need to know can be found out via Google, talking to others with experience, etc.

Regarding economies of scale, how do miniatures companies get economies of scale? Likely some combo of scooping up more demand by lowering price, and scooping up more demand by making miniatures more valuable (see what Warlord Games has done to the perceived value of Wargames Factory's Apocalypse survivor miniatures by bundling them with a game, could also be producing more of what people want, like big creatures ala Mierce)

Azazelx wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
Guys, please stop asking Tre to add in his existing stock at a discount.
That doesn't help him out 'at all', not only is he losing a lot of money on those sales because of the discount '

Actually, it's a balancing act - but you should know this anyway. Discounts that encourage people to buy items that they would not normally have bought don't "lose" you money at all. They earn you less, but that's a different kettle of fish.

Note, I don't personally care either way if Tre' offers a discount on existing stock or not in this case, and I do wish him the best in funding - though making enough money for his own metal casting equipment might be a better/more achievable option in the short term than the PVC production.

Two thoughts:
Please please please don't go the whole "I'll cast my own miniatures to save money" route. It is false economy. Tre's comparative advantage is in sculpting miniatures. He should spend the maximum time he can sculpting, and farm out all the other parts of his business to people with comparative advantages in other areas.

It is not clear that you cannot perpetually pull demand from the future with sales. Lots of retailers whole business models are built around sales, because they work. Future sales are speculative (will they really happen?), worth less because of currency depreciation, and worth less because people discount future happiness (ex. do you want a free scoop of ice-cream now or in two-months?), it makes a lot of sense to trade them for sales now.

Fugazi wrote:In that context, would it make more sense for Tre to do a not-Kickstarter pre-order on his own site like North Star has done with Frostgrave?

Yes, this is a great point. Tre, why are you still using Kickstarter? You should just be taking pre-orders on your website at this point. That gives you an instant 5% bonus for very little work.

And finally, I think the make-up of the warband was not optimal. In terms of their value in other systems, you really only get two types of guys per box "medium melee guy" and "archer guy." I would recommend putting in a wizard, an archer, a big two handed weapon type, and a couple of hw+shield guys. The wizard might be a different mold, and only show up once per box (maybe with a couple of head/arm options). In fact, a wizard, two heavy types, 8 hw+shield with swappable weapons& heads, and 2 archers with modular heads would get you a lot more "value" per box in the sense of people being able to use them in a wide variety of rulesets and rpgs. That is much closer to what I would pay $45 usd +shipping for a year in the future in PVC.

In summary, if someone came up to Tre and said "Hey, if you will sculpt six heads, and spend a week or so sending out packages, I'll give you production rights to these excellent figures and experience and contacts working with a Chinese manufacturer in a new medium that is revolutionizing the industry and could revolutionize your business" it would be silly not to take that person up on the deal.

 Da Boss wrote:
Azazelx: Do you think it could end Tre's business if he relaunches in metal? It seems like his metal kickstarters have been a bit more safe and successful than the plastic ones in the past.

In any case, I agree- I encourage care and conservatism because I'm pretty aware of how important the bottom line is when you're a one man show.

The thing with metal is that it's a known quantity, with known costs - so it'd essentially be like simply making more models, so I don't think it risks Tre's business to relaunch in metal in some form - which would be good to see. I guess the thing to remember is that these vikings were to be the guinea pigs to trial the PVC/Restic/whatever material before Tre launches his planned game. As others have said, though - Vikings/Njorn might not have been the best choice from a market standpoint, and vikings are easy to get in any quantity in a variety of materials from a variety of manufacturers (including RBG!) at a variety of price points without needing to go near PVC, restic or waiting 6-12-18 months for delivery.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gallahad wrote:

Two thoughts:
Please please please don't go the whole "I'll cast my own miniatures to save money" route. It is false economy. Tre's comparative advantage is in sculpting miniatures. He should spend the maximum time he can sculpting, and farm out all the other parts of his business to people with comparative advantages in other areas.

Tre' write a fair bit about his issues and difficulties with casters, and minimum orders needed to restock his products for the website during the long, drawn out aftermath of KS1 and the cancelled KS2. If Tre' controlled the means of production, he'd then be able to offer anything in his catalogue as needed, and essentially cast on demand if need be, much like Heresy or Warlord (on opposite ends of the spectrum) do, with minimised production costs. Tre' is a great sculptor, but he's not a dedicated freelancer at this point. He has his own business with his own website, direct-to-consumer sales, fans, etc. He could cut out a chunk of his own supply chain while having quality control on tap, and theoretically increase his profits per unit and also expand to selling others' ranges under licence.

It is not clear that you cannot perpetually pull demand from the future with sales. Lots of retailers whole business models are built around sales, because they work. Future sales are speculative (will they really happen?), worth less because of currency depreciation, and worth less because people discount future happiness (ex. do you want a free scoop of ice-cream now or in two-months?), it makes a lot of sense to trade them for sales now.

Arty seems to be working from a zero-sum perspective. There's HF stuff I'd like to buy, but I'm waiting for a sale to coincide with when I've got the money to burn. If HF sales were more frequent, I'd buy more HF product, more often. Because there's stuff I like - no end of it on HF's website in fact - I'd happily buy 90% of their range bit by bit - but nothing I need. This applies to many others, including GW. I've bought nine "start collecting" boxes and one of the new army boxes (Chaos Deathtide) because I feel there's worthwhile value/savings on models I'd like to assemble and paint one day - stuff I like, but don't need - the good prices on it all got me spending on GW, which hasn't been my main line of products to buy in quite a few years now.. If the new SC boxes weren't a thing, I wouldn't have bought any of it.

 Azazelx wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gallahad wrote:

Two thoughts:
Please please please don't go the whole "I'll cast my own miniatures to save money" route. It is false economy. Tre's comparative advantage is in sculpting miniatures. He should spend the maximum time he can sculpting, and farm out all the other parts of his business to people with comparative advantages in other areas.

Tre' write a fair bit about his issues and difficulties with casters, and minimum orders needed to restock his products for the website during the long, drawn out aftermath of KS1 and the cancelled KS2. If Tre' controlled the means of production, he'd then be able to offer anything in his catalogue as needed, and essentially cast on demand if need be, much like Heresy or Warlord (on opposite ends of the spectrum) do, with minimised production costs. Tre' is a great sculptor, but he's not a dedicated freelancer at this point. He has his own business with his own website, direct-to-consumer sales, fans, etc. He could cut out a chunk of his own supply chain while having quality control on tap, and theoretically increase his profits per unit and also expand to selling others' ranges under licence.

Gallahad is completely right. If Tre starts casting in house he'll never get out of the circle. You gave two examples but only one is relevant. Warlord don't have the sculptors do casting, they are big enough to essentially own a casting house. That's not the other end of the spectrum, it's a completely different spectrum.. Heresy however is a very relevant example and I don't think we need to drag why it's so relevant through the mud :|

Tre is a sculptor, that is his most valuable skill. 'Any' time spent doing anything else is a false economy. I wouldn't let Kev pack an envelope or waste time spinning moulds (I also wouldn't be happy if he decided to start doing 'anything' that meant his hands were near molten metal). His time is one of our most valuable commodities, to spend it on anything that isn't his best skill is crazy. When we were sharing an office I even made his tea so he wouldn't be wasting that time (To be fair, my wife and partner probably made more of his tea but you get the gist).

 Azazelx wrote:

It is not clear that you cannot perpetually pull demand from the future with sales. Lots of retailers whole business models are built around sales, because they work. Future sales are speculative (will they really happen?), worth less because of currency depreciation, and worth less because people discount future happiness (ex. do you want a free scoop of ice-cream now or in two-months?), it makes a lot of sense to trade them for sales now.

Arty seems to be working from a zero-sum perspective. There's HF stuff I'd like to buy, but I'm waiting for a sale to coincide with when I've got the money to burn. If HF sales were more frequent, I'd buy more HF product, more often. Because there's stuff I like - no end of it on HF's website in fact - I'd happily buy 90% of their range bit by bit - but nothing I need. This applies to many others, including GW. I've bought nine "start collecting" boxes and one of the new army boxes (Chaos Deathtide) because I feel there's worthwhile value/savings on models I'd like to assemble and paint one day - stuff I like, but don't need - the good prices on it all got me spending on GW, which hasn't been my main line of products to buy in quite a few years now.. If the new SC boxes weren't a thing, I wouldn't have bought any of it.

If we had more sales 'everyone' would buy during them. The businesses who's models operate on sales have that built in, like the high st stores that have 'closing down sales' every 3 months. You can't just switch a regular business to just having more sales, the more sales you have, the more your product is devalued to the sale price and seen as overpriced during non-sale times. Again, same company example as above.

If Tre adds his entire line to every kickstarter, at a discount 'and' losing the extra 8% in KS fees, then his regular websales between Kickstarters will be even worse. People aren't stupid, if the majority of his sales go to regular fans then they will know to just wait until the next Kickstarter. It's borrowing from yourself in the future. It's not about being 'zero sum', it's about building a long term business model instead of constantly borrowing from yourself and hoping to catch up someday. Again, same example.

There are certain times of year when sales are pretty obviously gong to happen, we have always seen a dip before those times. We combat it by changing up the promotions we do, goody bags, freebies etc (Black Friday we deep discounted a small selection of minis instead of shallow discounting the entire line). as that removes the 'Oh I'll just wait until blah to get x off' mentality.

(Yes, it's a lot more complicated but that's how it almost always works out)

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gallahad wrote:

Two thoughts:
Please please please don't go the whole "I'll cast my own miniatures to save money" route. It is false economy. Tre's comparative advantage is in sculpting miniatures. He should spend the maximum time he can sculpting, and farm out all the other parts of his business to people with comparative advantages in other areas.

Tre' write a fair bit about his issues and difficulties with casters, and minimum orders needed to restock his products for the website during the long, drawn out aftermath of KS1 and the cancelled KS2. If Tre' controlled the means of production, he'd then be able to offer anything in his catalogue as needed, and essentially cast on demand if need be, much like Heresy or Warlord (on opposite ends of the spectrum) do, with minimised production costs. Tre' is a great sculptor, but he's not a dedicated freelancer at this point. He has his own business with his own website, direct-to-consumer sales, fans, etc. He could cut out a chunk of his own supply chain while having quality control on tap, and theoretically increase his profits per unit and also expand to selling others' ranges under licence.

Gallahad is completely right. If Tre starts casting in house he'll never get out of the circle. You gave two examples but only one is relevant. Warlord don't have the sculptors do casting, they are big enough to essentially own a casting house. That's not the other end of the spectrum, it's a completely different spectrum.. Heresy however is a very relevant example and I don't think we need to drag why it's so relevant through the mud :|

Tre is a sculptor, that is his most valuable skill. 'Any' time spent doing anything else is a false economy. I wouldn't let Kev pack an envelope or waste time spinning moulds (I also wouldn't be happy if he decided to start doing 'anything' that meant his hands were near molten metal). His time is one of our most valuable commodities, to spend it on anything that isn't his best skill is crazy. When we were sharing an office I even made his tea so he wouldn't be wasting that time (To be fair, my wife and partner probably made more of his tea but you get the gist).

That is some excellent points, Artemis. I think you touched on a very important issue. Time. And where one decides to put his/her time. In any sculptor's case, just like Artemis says, their time should be in the most cost-effective way, which is by sculpting.

 Artemis Black wrote:

Gallahad is completely right. If Tre starts casting in house he'll never get out of the circle. You gave two examples but only one is relevant. Warlord don't have the sculptors do casting, they are big enough to essentially own a casting house. That's not the other end of the spectrum, it's a completely different spectrum.. Heresy however is a very relevant example and I don't think we need to drag why it's so relevant through the mud :|

Tre is a sculptor, that is his most valuable skill. 'Any' time spent doing anything else is a false economy. I wouldn't let Kev pack an envelope or waste time spinning moulds (I also wouldn't be happy if he decided to start doing 'anything' that meant his hands were near molten metal). His time is one of our most valuable commodities, to spend it on anything that isn't his best skill is crazy. When we were sharing an office I even made his tea so he wouldn't be wasting that time (To be fair, my wife and partner probably made more of his tea but you get the gist).

Ok, that's all fair enough and makes sense to a good degree. OTOH, I don't know the finer points of Andy/Heresy's life, but it seems like "The Dragon" was the thing that brought his house down, rather than in-house casting. "The Dragon" is why I think that perhaps the PVC project as it stood dying on the vine is a good thing for Tre'. Still, Hasslefree appears to be doing an order of magnitude better than RBG is, despite Tre' also being an excellent sculptor with a distinct style. Kev obviously has a much wider range of models and genres covered than Tre', but there should surely be more proactive advice that he can get to build his business. To cast, Tre' would need a trustworthy "minion" to do it, which means he'd need to pay an employee, so sales would have to rise by "that much" and so forth before the business can expand. Fair enough.

If we had more sales 'everyone' would buy during them. The businesses who's models operate on sales have that built in, like the high st stores that have 'closing down sales' every 3 months. You can't just switch a regular business to just having more sales, the more sales you have, the more your product is devalued to the sale price and seen as overpriced during non-sale times. Again, same company example as above.

If Tre adds his entire line to every kickstarter, at a discount 'and' losing the extra 8% in KS fees, then his regular websales between Kickstarters will be even worse. People aren't stupid, if the majority of his sales go to regular fans then they will know to just wait until the next Kickstarter. It's borrowing from yourself in the future. It's not about being 'zero sum', it's about building a long term business model instead of constantly borrowing from yourself and hoping to catch up someday. Again, same example.

I don't believe that anyone was suggesting that he discount his entire line during each kickstarter. Curated, themed discounts would be the appropriate way to go. As in "things that go with vikings/njorn" during the "njorn kickstarter". A shaman, a couple of leaders, some more archers, etc. Maybe a "Nickstarter" as some have suggested, but $40k is a huge chunk of change, and we just know that despite the best of intentions a PVCproject going to China would be at least a year late, and then there's all kinds of issues around fulfilment when people don't even feel like they have the protection (ha!) that KS brings.

There are certain times of year when sales are pretty obviously gong to happen, we have always seen a dip before those times. We combat it by changing up the promotions we do, goody bags, freebies etc (Black Friday we deep discounted a small selection of minis instead of shallow discounting the entire line). as that removes the 'Oh I'll just wait until blah to get x off' mentality.
(Yes, it's a lot more complicated but that's how it almost always works out)

That's actually why I didn't buy anything from you guys on Black Friday. A dozen casts each from a half dozen choices wasn't worth my time when there was so much more on offer elsewhere. You had a "proper" sale just before then, as I recall (Adepticon? Gencon?) - but I missed it due to lack of funds (I would have bought some stuff then). I was then planning to buy during the BF one, but it wasn't worth my time, so I spent my money elsewhere instead. And I still haven't made that Hasslefree order. It's just a low priority thing. Models I'd like to have one day and nice sculpts that I'd like to get one day. Much like tons of Reaper's stuff, though - I like them but I don't need them.

If I were to hazard that a really significant number of HF's sales come from a solid number of regular, repeat fans/customers, would I be correct? Because that helps to make your perspective make total sense. I also agree completely that overdoing it hurts your business. Mantic's models are nearly worthless to me. In that I don't perceive (most of) them to have much value as either objects or that I'm willing to pay much at all for them as individual models. They're like Bones. This is more because of restic and terrible quality and quality control than the endless (KS) sales, but I'm in full agreement that constantly adding the previous KS's items to the next one has certainly devalued them.