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Tre is planning to make other ranges in PVC, right? I love his Reaper work, but I have to agree that "yet more vikings" is not exactly getting my heart racing. They're practically the zombies of the historical scene. I already have true plastic Vikings from WGF, with Gripping Beasts' on my list (near the bottom). Tre's will be better sculpted, but Shieldwolf is bringing a bit more that is new to the Viking plastics table, so I'll spend with them first. However, something like Tre's gnolls in PVC would seize my attention.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I like Tre's sculpts very much, but I'm wary of PVC.

Also, the $40,000 goal does seem very high considering the number of figures on offer; if it costs that much to produce, why not go with HIPs?

I don't think Tre is capable of sculpting for HIPS.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Tre is planning to make other ranges in PVC, right? I love his Reaper work, but I have to agree that "yet more vikings" is not exactly getting my heart racing. They're practically the zombies of the historical scene. I already have true plastic Vikings from WGF, with Gripping Beasts' on my list (near the bottom). Tre's will be better sculpted, but Shieldwolf is bringing a bit more that is new to the Viking plastics table, so I'll spend with them first. However, something like Tre's gnolls in PVC would seize my attention.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I like Tre's sculpts very much, but I'm wary of PVC.

Also, the $40,000 goal does seem very high considering the number of figures on offer; if it costs that much to produce, why not go with HIPs?

I don't think Tre is capable of sculpting for HIPS.

I was thinking the same. It seems odd that Shieldwolf will offer 20 plastic minis for 20-25$ in HIPS (like their mountain orcs box), while in this case we have 15 for 45$ in PVC. I am aware of the top level of Tre's sculpts and this is why I support most of his campaigns (this one as well) but I thought that PVC is an inferior material than HIPS (and a reason that it is preferred for boardgame minis), while also the molds are cheaper to make.

Maybe I am somewhere wrong here and I would really appreciate some enlightenment. Is the detail level of PVC crisper than that of HIPS?

P.S. I would really like to see some plastic Helsvakt at some point as well (Gynnade Krigare in particular)

HIPS is more crisp if you sculpt and plan accordingly, the way WGF does for Wyrd and KDM. However, it is much more common to see some cutting of corners and blending of undercuts.

The best PVC I've seen is the top end from Mantic's Mars Attacks and DBX campaigns. Most of the time, PVC minis leave a lot to be desired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However, I also think Reaper's Bones works quite well for gnoll-sized and larger sculpts, so YMMV.

The manufacturer I am working with for this is the same manufacturer who produced Mantic's Mars Attacks and DBX figures. They also produce SDE and a fair few products for various other companies.

PVC does actually capture detail better because it allows for undrcuts. Most of the time when you look at a mini and think " Wow that is highly detailed " it is because the undercuts create shadows that allow your eye to perceive those details more easily. Reducing under cuts means reducing the visibility and sharpness of details.

The way that HIPS modls are made the details are the most " crisp " the closer they are to the direct line from the angle of the tool cutting the metal. This is the " drawline ". As details move further out of this drawline they become fainter and more shallow until they blend into the curve of the piece or disappear entirely.

HIPS can be really well made ( obviously ) BUT PVC IS more akin to the kind of medium table top gamers are accustomed to seeing. I personally like the feel of HIPS better than PVC but I like the detail of PVC better than HIPS.

HIPS molds are also MUCH more expensive and the minimum quantity of sprues per order is 5 times higher. The sprues themselves are slightly cheaper but those savings are gobbled right up in the minimum order quantity This is why you see repeats in boxes so often.

I wish/hope at some point the campaign will produce a character model or some sort of single I can pledge for.

I'm not really interested in the Njorn - but I'd love to get a hands-on preview of the how well the material/casting etc turns out before the Super Secret project launches.

Wont those shields be a problem if you cast with them attached? Seems better to sculpt them separately.

Also, as usual, we could use some scale shots with other models/rulers. Tre, your work is normally on a finer scale, how much have you bulked up the details/depressions/lines to account for PVC shrinkage?

On the PVC issue, I have several of Tre's Trollcast PVC models and they are really good quality, no flaws or mold lines at all. Lovely minis.

Tre has really high standards of QC in my experience.

Da Boss, the "trollcast" material is made using an entirely different method - it is "spincast resin". Whereas PVC is made using a traditional injection mold, but because the materia can flex a bit coming out of the mold (unlike HIPS), it isn't as challenging to tool for.

As Tre said, this means you can have some undercuts on the sculpt, and still get the parts out of the mold - but it also results in detail that might not be as sharp. It's a tradeoff... I would have loved to hear that the manufacturer was the same as for Blood Rage, as I've heard amazing things about some of those minis. I think Tre's sculpts will be harder to capture the detail of in PVC... but I am certainly willing to give it a try!

I'm super interested. I love Tre's sculpts (I have some of the Red Box minis from Hasslefree, as well as the Norse Dwarves, and I got my partner Henn of Gar recently). I want to support this.

The one thing that puts me off a bit right now is that all shipping is from the USA. I kind of want the $115 / $120 pack, splitting it with my partner and son... but shipping could push that to say $130... and then import duties and VAT could make it more like $180. Any plans for EU-friendly shipping? Maybe cutting a deal with Hasslefree?

 tre manor wrote:
The manufacturer I am working with for this is the same manufacturer who produced Mantic's Mars Attacks and DBX figures. They also produce SDE and a fair few products for various other companies.

PVC does actually capture detail better because it allows for undrcuts. Most of the time when you look at a mini and think " Wow that is highly detailed " it is because the undercuts create shadows that allow your eye to perceive those details more easily. Reducing under cuts means reducing the visibility and sharpness of details.

The way that HIPS modls are made the details are the most " crisp " the closer they are to the direct line from the angle of the tool cutting the metal. This is the " drawline ". As details move further out of this drawline they become fainter and more shallow until they blend into the curve of the piece or disappear entirely.

HIPS can be really well made ( obviously ) BUT PVC IS more akin to the kind of medium table top gamers are accustomed to seeing. I personally like the feel of HIPS better than PVC but I like the detail of PVC better than HIPS.

HIPS molds are also MUCH more expensive and the minimum quantity of sprues per order is 5 times higher. The sprues themselves are slightly cheaper but those savings are gobbled right up in the minimum order quantity This is why you see repeats in boxes so often.

Good to hear it's the same manufacturer.

Undercuts aren't everything. I get that PVC is more like the media you are used to sculpting for, but I feel like you are either playing down its flaws... or did not pledge for enough of the early Kickstarters. Please tell me your contract has clauses giving you the final QC check off and forcing the manufacturer to scrap the molds and remake them if the final product isn't up to scratch. Don't let them Mantic you.

The BLOOD RAGE and ZOMBICIDE BLACK PLAGUE minis are VERY nice.

I'd say the same for the WRATH OF KINGS minis too, using the ABS 'weapons' solution.

The biggest issues with even some of the 'best' PVC figures are Bendy Weapon Syndrome (not to be confused with Wehrkind Spongy Factor, or WGS) and loss of detail from master/proto to production, oftentimes the fault of not properly compensating for the shrinkage issues there.

I hope we don't run into those problems here!

(Though I'll admit to cringing when reading that these are going to be 'plastic' minis - technically true, but I still tend to thing HIPs when I read 'plastic'! )

So it's the same Restic that PP use? Have I missed something here? I've had nothing but bad experience with Restic, including PP's.

overtyrant wrote:
So it's the same Restic that PP use? Have I missed something here? I've had nothing but bad experience with Restic, including PP's.

I can't comment much on PP's stuff, but I'm guessing you've missed the aforementioned BLOOD RAGE, ZOMBICIDE BLACK PLAGUE and WRATH OF KINGS models?

 Alpharius wrote:

overtyrant wrote:
So it's the same Restic that PP use? Have I missed something here? I've had nothing but bad experience with Restic, including PP's.

I can't comment much on PP's stuff, but I'm guessing you've missed the aforementioned BLOOD RAGE, ZOMBICIDE BLACK PLAGUE and WRATH OF KINGS models?

Didn't see Tre mention them anywher (I must be blind), Just the part where he said he's working with the same manufacturer that produced Mantics Mars Attacks and Dreadball Xtreme. If this is true I may have to rethink my pledge.

I'm not sure about this one either now, to be honest with you.

I'd have felt much better if he was using CMON's recent "PVC" factory too.

Apologies for misunderstanding your question and possibly adding to the general confusion!

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm not sure about this one either now, to be honest with you.

I'd have felt much better if he was using CMON's recent "PVC" factory too.

Apologies for misunderstanding your question and possibly adding to the general confusion!

If I'm honest as soon as I read Mantic I kinda just skimmed the rest, got hopeful when you mentioned those games then looked back and couldn't find them and became sad again

Same here!

Not sure how, but I somehow convinced myself that Tre was using CMON's factory and not MANTIC's!

Still hopeful though...

Mantic had some great minis in PVC...when they started with great sculpts and apparently? got lucky on the molds. However, there's a correlation between the skinniness or stature of the sculpt and weakness of the casting, and Tre's sculpts look relatively slender.

 Alpharius wrote:
The BLOOD RAGE and ZOMBICIDE BLACK PLAGUE minis are VERY nice.

I'd say the same for the WRATH OF KINGS minis too, using the ABS 'weapons' solution.

I agree that the Wrath of Kings and Blood Models are really, really nice. (RiTides needs to get down here to play and see for himself!)

I haven't seen all PP's newest PVC kits, but the Warpwolf and Satyr kits weren't bad, and the argus and Skin walkers were acceptable. PP's Ravager/Blood Pack set was only fair, partially due to sculpting but had some irritating mold lines. The Wolves/Reeves of Orboros box was pretty ok too. Pretty ugly sculpts, but I didn't want to murder god and then myself putting a bunch together. By a bunch I mean ~30.
So really I am fairly optimistic here. I would prefer HIPS, Metal or Resin if given the option at 3$ a pop, but that hasn't happened since I was in middle school.

(not to be confused with Wehrkind Spongy Factor, or WGS) )

I have mixed feelings about the fact that is apparently my only lasting contribution to the community

Hey, at least you'll be remembered, right?

That's the mix I imagine Bob Dole feels the same way, not really remembered for his contributions other than commercials about dealing with... spongy factor.

 RiTides wrote:
Da Boss, the "trollcast" material is made using an entirely different method - it is "spincast resin". Whereas PVC is made using a traditional injection mold, but because the materia can flex a bit coming out of the mold (unlike HIPS), it isn't as challenging to tool for.

The problem is that that flexing is a crutch that allows companies to get away with making bad models. If you take the miniature out of the mould before it's fully set - either because you're trying to do things faster or because you want to take advantage of the decreased strength of the plastic to get it out of the mould - you risk permanently changing the internal structure of the plastic through plastic deformation. This is why the hot water method of fixing warped miniatures doesn't work as well as you'd assume: because you've made the bent miniature the natural resting state of the plastic, and the straight miniature is the one that has been pushed out of shape.

I'm confident that Tre believes the material can do his models justice. Having been a backer of his troll cast KS I know what he considers to be acceptable.
My only qualm would be with any variance between what he's been told/shown can be achieved and what can actually be achieved.

That was a pretty big issue in KS1. Given that it's PP's restic maker, I'm dubious on the eventual quality. I haven't really looked at my MA stuff since I got it, and don't have any experience with DBX.

I do know that I'm not prepared to pay a premium for either boardgame PVC or restic, and at $45 for 15 models plus international postage - so at least another $20+, plus AU$>US$ conversion, I'd be looking at AU$91+ for 15 models. So as much as I want Tre' to succeed, I'm going to sit this one out as it makes GW's stuff look cheap without any KS risks (I can get a Start Collecting box of HIPS for AU$100 by way of comparison). Hopefully the next stage after this is HIPS and true plastic pricing.

Some DBX stuff is quite good, mostly in the free agents or mvp sets, I think. Teams with more human sized figures, like the tsudochan and kloris were not nearly as good. Mars Attacks also had a diverse spectrum of quality.

As long as Tre is willing and able to ride herd on the manufacturer, he should get a quality result. After the Trollcast drama, I'd expect him to be prepared for that.

Well, the manufacturer is obviously in China. And we know how well that can turn out if you're not sitting on their doorstep, gently cradling a cudgel. We laugh at Mantic, and deservedly so - but I'm sure they never expected their restic QC to be as awful as it has. Or their boardgame PVC (bendy Dungeon Saga men, anyone?). Or the Men-At-Arms.

Tre's a one-family show, and lacks the means to fly someone out to China to QA the production in the way that Mantic or PP can.

I love Tre's sculpts, but I'm not willing to take the ride with him the first time around the Chinese manufacturer go round at more than $3 a pop for PVC minis. I'm sorry, but it will be better for my health, and those are not prices that create a sufficient fear of missing out to get me to open my wallet .

While i usually support most of Tre's Kickstarters I think I'll be sitting this one out, i was burnt badly during his first 'Trollcast' Kickstarter so at this point i'm overly cautious of anything he produces that isn't metal. During that Kickstarter my pledge was one of the last packages to be sent out, which unfortunately meant the moulds had deteriorated badly which resulted in quite a few of my models having noticeable problems. But some like the Hordesmen which i spent at least $100 on for a large unit were so horribly miscast that it just wasn't worth the time and effort it would take to try and save them.

I don't really think PVC is that bad, it works great for chunkier models like Avatar of Wars Dwarfs and Chaos Warriors or some of Mantic's miniatures. But from my past experiences it just doesn't work that well with thinner and more realistic models. I'm still hoping that this Kickstarter funds though and the models turn out great so i that can eventually pick up a set from the RBG store.

If i can suggest a future Kickstarter Tre, how about converting your Orcs over to PVC? They're big chunky models and would work great in the material, maybe sculpt a few extra heads, bodies and legs to add some more variation and i could definitely see them becoming a good seller at the right price.

IF this Kickstarter is successful, I think the plan is to use this material for the miniatures in the "SDSNRBG Project".

That campaign will attempt to fund 4 factions, I think, and I'm fairly sure that HIPs is not in the picture there either.

With a funding goal of $40K, well, that might include quite a few go-rounds here, and Tre *should* be able to make sure the quality is what it needs to be in order to be successful - in every sense of the word.

Who knows? Maybe that $40K includes a trip or two out to the factory during test shot time and production time too?

Anyhow...

Creator tre manor about 22 hours ago

hey guys, sorry late start this morning.

Shrinkage....... True there is some shrinkage involved int he plastics process. However it is typically more extreme / perceptible on larger models than it is on smaller models. i did have an industry friend who was kind enough to provide me with reference of resin casts and production casts and in the 32mm range the shrinkage to my eye was almost imperceptible. At least in so much as if I did not know there was shrinkage to look for I would not have noticed it at all.

I have also had a LOT of samples from various manufacturers and spent many many hours conversing with agents of these companies trying it nail everything down. I did sculpt the figures to fit with my range using Weglaf of Arnholdt's hill as reference for the scale. I will get some pictures up for reference here in just a couple of hours. Not having the heads finished really makes a big difference in being able to judge scale compatibility.

The shrinkage that i have been warned about has been in the 2-5% range which on a 32 mm figure translates to maybe 1 or 2 mm in shrinkage. For those of you who contributed to my TrollForge Kickstarter the shrinkage on those figures was more extreme / perceptible than 2-5 %

Consistency in sculpting makes a BIG difference in the overall look of the final product.

Hmmm...

I just want you guys to know that i fully understand and respect your misgivings. I am paying very close attention to all feedback and considering every option.