Arguably there are armies with worse codexes out there. Like Orks, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard and Tyranids
yet Spikey Space Marines takes up 90% of the whining on these forums with them demanding they deserve a full update with OP rules like back in 4th edition when everyone was running rofl-stomp Khorne Berzeker lists. Considering the OPness they enjoyed for so-long in 4th when every game was CSM players trying to get into assault to stomp face... is the amount of complaining really deserving?
The true reason probably is among the bad armies (Orks, Sisters, Tyranids, and CSM) CSM probably has the most fanboys because they are space Marines. Everyone wants their own army they collect to be good again. Sure Orks might suck way more than CSM but I don't play Orks so I could care less. There are or WERE a LOT of CSM players from back in 4th when they please don't use this term on Dakka like this. Reds8n everyone.
People complain about SoB but remember that the chaos marine Dex is not only the oldest but one of the worst written. I think there is also a frustration that one of the main factions has languished for so freaking long.
I understand that but the sense of entitlement among chaos players thinking because they are the main dudes in the setting they "deserve more" than any of the other crap armies out there is overbearing
buddha wrote: People complain about SoB but remember that the chaos marine Dex is not only the oldest but one of the worst written. I think there is also a frustration that one of the main factions has languished for so freaking long.
The only people who complain about SoB are talking about the model availability and limited range of options.
The Sisters rules are actually better than the CSM ones right now for the most part.
DorianGray wrote: Arguably there are armies with worse codexes out there. Like Orks, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard and Tyranids
I'd argue CSM's are worse than most, if not all of these armies. Certainly tournament results would support them being worse than most/all of these, especially if you look at CSM armies that aren't rump-detachments to Daemon allies.
yet Spikey Space Marines takes up 90% of the whining on these forums with them demanding they deserve a full update with OP rules like back in 4th edition when everyone was running rofl-stomp Khorne Berzeker lists.
Khorne Berzerkers were never anything broken, nor are 90% of the whines coming from CSM players. Most people are complaining about Eldar/Tau/SM's/Necrons...and largely for good reason.
The 4E CSM codex has *one* really good thing. Lash of Submission. Aside from that, it was "eh" ok in terms of power level. CSM's were likewise not the dominant army of 4th edition. You're thinking of Eldar and the unkillable skimmerspam flying circus. CSM's were solid in 4E, and part of the problem currently is that the army really hasn't changed, it's still built around 4E & 5E core rules mechanics that no longer exist or function. You can't consolidate into new combats anymore (which was a good change, but an impactful one for CSM's), you can't assault out of a stationary transport anymore (a very poor core rules change), it's new Daemon Engines are built to function and costed to 5E vehicle rules, while newer armies get such units as far more capable MC's instead.
Another reason you see lots of CSM complaints is that the army has become increasingly one-dimensional and bland in terms of fluff and options over the last few editions. Disregarding power level, if you read through the old 2002 CSM codex, you really get a totally different feel for the faction, a much more rich, coherent, dark, and depressing view of them, and a much better representation of the various CSM factions, both just in the fluff writing and army construction options, which has largely been stripped away over time. They've become rather bland steroetypical "evil" marines, and you get weird issues like having Plague Marines but no Plague Terminators (no, Terminators with an MoN are not Plague Terminators, anymore than CSM's with a Mark of Nurgle are Plague Marines). Meanwhile the loyalists have had the reverse, they have gotten all sorts of chapter tactics, wargear, units, equipment, and characters since 4th edition.
Considering the OPness they enjoyed for so-long in 4th when every game was CSM players trying to get into assault to stomp face... is the amount of complaining really deserving?
Even if we assume CSM's were the most broken OP army in 4th (though few would consider them to be so), how many people playing the game today played 4th? Maybe 5-10% of the playerbase? Most people play the game for a year, maybe two, and move on, very few play for multiple editions, much less through four of them or more. 4th edition hasn't been in place in 8 years, it's time to let it go.
The true reason probably is among the bad armies (Orks, Sisters, Tyranids, and CSM) CSM probably has the most fanboys because they are space Marines. Everyone wants their own army they collect to be good again. Sure Orks might suck way more than CSM but I don't play Orks so I could care less. There are or WERE a LOT of CSM players from back in 4th when they destroyed everyone.
Thoughts?
Methinks you're projecting some sort of issue onto CSM's that really lies elsewhere here...
Both Sisters and Guard are OK. They have useful stuff of their own and can fix anything missing (eg long range firepower for Sisters or melee units for Guard) by bringing allies.
Orks and Nids cant do that at all and CSM can do it only in a limited fashion, and only by mostly going away from the Traitor Marine theme and towards Daemons instead.
CSM I'd say is probably the most popular out of these three, especially after 30k came along and made people play the CSM predecessors, which probably got a lot of people thinking "hey, I wanna play e.g. thousand sons in 40k, too!" - so there's probably simply a ton of CSM players around.
I'm a Chaos player, and I get it. Our Codex is outdated. However the constant derailing of threads with complaining about the codex isn't going to change anything, nor is complaining about any new release that comes out for any other army. The entire internet gets it - the codex sucks. Can we all agree that it sucks and get on with discussing positive hobby? Like how to have an enjoyable game? I'll gladly persist with my CSM getting stomped because I love the way my army looks, and I love the theme. I play for the love of playing, win lose or draw I don't care. As long as the game is fun.
@OP You won't understand until you bother collecting 10k points of CSM, and play them against any generic list out there that doesn't use FW heavy models. As a CSM player, whose started out as a CSM collector and moved onto Daemons then Tau then Eldar, the CSM Dex is absolutely horse bollocks by comparison.
Comparing CSM in awfulness to Orks is a terrible thing simply because Orks can do everything CSM do, but better (Aside from shooting, but even then we're vanilla marines with out dated special rules designed for an edition which doesn't exist and a mindset that never happened)
There is nothing inside the CSM Dex that synergizes well with itself without the use of a $200 book from Forgeworld and an equal if not more monetary investment of models from Forgeworld.
I have a sizeable Sisters army loafing around and they perform so much better for their price than my CSM simply because they perform a specialized role well, and MSU actually works for them. CSM doesn't have the luxury of being capable of list building where you can say to yourself "I want to take Warp Talons, because they're cool & good" Because they simply aren't. Their rules are crap, the models are expensive as all hell and there simply isn't a reason to bother looking at them when things like Bikes can do their jobs better and cheaper with more reliability.
Based on the statistical data collected on dakka polls about which teams people play, csm is nearly as high as space marines which is the largest single faction people play in the game.
Given that the number of csm players out number orks, IG, and sisters players combined, and compounded with the fact that the codex is legitimate garbage at this point, I'm surprised there isn't more people complaining than there is now.
I left the game for 14 years in that time my army thousand Suns are the same point cost. Most of the other units went down in cost others went up but all are worse rule wise. The codex is a mess daemons are taken out to sell another book the book it's all about random tables. I don't want to even play vs the new codexs with them as I feel like I am playing with a 300 point handicap in a 2k game
SebboVonTebbo wrote: At least they have be'lakor with 2+ jink and all those powers, pretty much something invisible every turn. talk about op
Really?
Let us open our copy of Codex: Chaos Space Marines...
Hmmm..
Hmmmmmm.
I can't seem to find Be'lakor in my Codex.
Which is one of the major points that CSM players have been making - our Codex is not viable without a £47 book from Forge World and a £5 ebook from Black Library.
I don't know of any other Codex that have £52 tax to just be 'viable'. Not good. Not top tier. Viable.
It also says a lot that the current 'viable' Chaos Space Marine army contains no Chaos Space Marines. When the current 'viable' list features virtually none of the core features of the army then that is a sign of a very big problem. Thematically, conceptually and rules-wise.
As others have pointed out - we're an army that is forced to use a book that is essentially two editions old and designed on principles of the edition that came before its release. Where every other army got special rules, traits and abilities tacked on for free (even the sub-par Dark Angels book that was released 2 months after CSM) we got overpriced units paying even more just to be on an even footing.
Conceptually we got a mess.
We're not Legions - we haven't got strong elites with strong wargear - instead we have a large amount of 'chaff' units.
We're not Renegades - we haven't got 'modern' Imperial weapon options and vehicles (Land Speeders, Land Raider Variants, Whirlwinds, Drop Pods etc).- instead we have a large amount of 'archaic' weapons and wargear - combi weapons, Reaper Autocannons instead of assault cannons, no multimeltas or plasma cannons available to infantry.
We're not Lost and the Damned - the majority of the force is CSM.
We're not pure CSM - we have half a dozen cult units and daemon engines.
We don't even have a fixed theme. So we get sub-par rules, a design philosophy that's 3 editions old, a £52 tax from Forge World and Black Library to be viable and we still have hatred heaped on us from people who considered the 3.5 CSM book to be the thing that ruined 40k forever.
That's right. 40k was ruined by Siren or by Iron Warrior armies having 4 Heavy Support slots. Not by SM Chapter Traits. Not by Eldar Skimmer spam with starcannons. Not by TMC Carnifex spam. But by two pages from a book.
And when we got our 4th ed Codex. Clearly we ruined 40k even more. Lash of Submission clearly was the thing that ruined it all. Not Eldar scat-laser spam. Not anything that came in 5th (GREY KNIGHTS ANYONE?).
I get frustrated when I have to deal with a stupid codex for a year or two. If rumors are true GK are going to receive a codex update this year.
And CSM won't.
I would be feeling a little pissed off to know that codices that got a update after me, are getting ANOTHER update before I do.
Worse all these recent updates are upping the power rating of those armies. Hell C:SM Raven Guard and White Scars got their own fluffy as feth formations.
I've been playing CSM since about mid 6th and I'd definitely we need a new dex and soon. Our units are overpriced as hell and there is a lot left out. A lot of what they put in is dumb. But having said that I've had fun with the book ever since I finished my CSM army. Competitively speaking I haven't done too bad either. But my meta is just barely on the competitive side between totally casual and cutthroat. A lot of the complaints honestly seem like bitchin for the sake of bitching. Granted there are many very valid complaints and o get some of the frustration. I really do. I don't believe, however, that everyone who threadjacks a topic to whine about CSM plays in a meta so cutthroat that they can't have fun with their book.
Am I the only person who thinks it's just a case of it being a popular army models/fluff wise so there's simply more people to be there to complain about it?
There's a lot more people into Chaos beyond a games standpoint than there are Nids, Orks and Dark Eldar, and other lackluster codices. So, yeah, it stands to reason that segment of unhappy players will come across way louder.
That could be it, but actually it generally pans out that the smallest group have the loudest voices, because we know we're more vulnerable.
That's why despite the CSM being just as vocal, it's Sisters players people dread hijacking their threads. Because even though there's maybe a fifth as many of us, we're that much more vocal.
I think the problem I have with it is that it's redundant. It feels to me like a 5th Ed book with a flyer thrown in. Like has been mentioned before, Space Marines and Eldar get 2 new books and we don't get any love.
We're a popular army so why shouldn't we get a look in. I'm not looking to bring a lot of SM stuff in or make us OP, I just want to be able to go toe to toe with newer armies and have a fun game. I would be happy with an updated existing codex with just perhaps a bit more variety, like the 3.5 dex, and a points decrease across the board. I'm not looking for super units, just a level playing field.
Large player base
Legitimately terrible rules
Other factions receiving rules that CSM players have been clamouring for
Internet citcle-jerk mentality
There's plenty of fuel for the complaints and plenty of irritated players to keep those fires stoked. Not surprising that there's lots if whining. Unfortunately it seems it will only be stopped by CSM receiving every last toy that loyalists have along with new free legion based rules buffs and simultaneously becoming the strongest codex in the game. Fortunately that'll never happen, though that means the whining will never really stop.
The persistent problem is just the game itself, which is totally stalled with every army that needed work in sixth now barely playable, and every army that didn't need work in 6th buffed to absurd levels.
The people playing a poor army were dealing with 45% win rates, cookie cutter builds, lame rules and scant fluff in sixth and early 7th and going into 7.5, that winrate dropped to 35, 30, 20...and all the while all the people stomping them with crazy librarius conclaves and 2+ rerollable jinks and army wife ignores cover were saying
"Don't complain! GW is putting out great codexes every month now! You'll get yours, there's no reason I should feel bad just because I got mine a little early!"
Well, here we are. Given the guard and Ork content released recently, GW thinks the current balance level is in a great spot. There are ZERO rumors of upcoming 40k releases for any of the have-nots. It seems to be a nonexistent priority given the recent releases (oh what the heck, two new mini factions! Plastic marines for the only space marine game! Age of sigmar! Space marine anniversary edition!)
So by all means. If you have a reason csmde ba IG sob Ork and Nid players shouldn't be bitter, share it.
They just don't have much in the way of viable builds. They are bottom of the power tier and for some reason the only thing they had going for them were Heldrakes, but once GW sold enough of them they nerf batted them. The only faction worse off currently are (in my opinion) sadly my fav army, the orks who got the worse codex update ever to be worse than the outgoing one.
Honestly, CSM rules are just horrible.
I wanted to play CSM when I started, but the rules were just so bad I couldn't bring myself to it, and eventually went to my second favorite tau.
I'm pretty dedicated tau these days, but I try going chaos every once in a while, but I just CAN'T. the most cheesy boring lists are easily trumped by my most casual tau (and I tend to play mostly the subpar tau units, very little of the new generation), heck anything I can think of with csm it takes me zero thought to do a better loyalist marine variation, even without ally minmaxing or formations.
The codex is just bad. Both in power and in design.
=Most units are between slightly overpriced (most infantry) to hideously overpriced (possessed, 1ksons) with very few well priced.
=There is nearly no synergy between units beyond "we both shoot stuff" or "we both charge".
Some units dont even have synergy with themselves (warp talons and mutilators) or psychotic (defiler)
=Many fields lacking (no proper AA or artillery except a poor unit like flak havocs and defiler )
=There is no real focus. It's called" chaos space marines", but it's a mishmash of Chaos marines, chaos cults, dark mech and human cultists. However because it doesn't accept the fact it's not CSM but chaos in general there is no proper interaction between the subgroups as they are all treated as tack on the CSM. Even though the CSM are honestly a minority.
=Little "personality" of the various chaos groups.
=So much RNG and loss of control. I know it's chaos, but for feth sake. Random is nice when all results are decent, and about as decent. But CSM random goes from "you're screwed" to "jackpot"
=The slannesh question hits here too. What IS tabletop slannesh? He currently has a mix of unrelated factors (initiative boost mark, cult unit is all about special stationary guns, banner in FnP. Mishmash inside the mishmash that is CSM)
A MASSIVE change is required. And fans are right to complain.
Currently I'm working on a fan codex set to completely rewrite chaos, but it will take some time. (writing five similar yet unique codcies is time consuming. And the slannesh codex is hard) hopefully I can post initial outcome soonish (given that one of them is basically patched KDK, that one is quick. Nurgle not too hard either.)
While the rules are horrible and only a mere 10+ years out of date, an even bigger issue for many of us is that the model line itself is in even worse shape.
Look at what we have available in plastic for just 'basic upgrades';
- Flamer, Meltagun, Plasma gun.
- Heavy bolter.
- Power sword, Power fist, Lightning claws (only because Warptalons are so garbage).
Show me another army besides Sisters of Bitter who have such a useless model line...
Over half of our codex isn't even available 'off the shelf', instead being limited to ancient, expensive & crappy Finecast bitz packs. And of the few actual squad boxes we do have, only two of them even come with enough actual bitz to build a viable squad. (Termie Lord/Sorc + Raptors/Talons box)
On top of missing 50% or more of our basic upgrade options in the bare handful of non-vehicle plastic kits we do have, almost all of them are at least 10+ years old, and either are full of miscasts/botched details (of what little there even is), or else aren't even from this ****ing millennium.
Instead, Chaos players get to pay as it's been long dubbed "The Chaos Tax", being forced to shell out for Imperial kits to fill in the massive holes that still remain in our model line.
And we're sick of it. We've suffered the double standard of being the eternal "have-nots" long enough, and sick of every Loyalist player hand-waving away the many, many issues with BOTH our rules & model line, while they've spent the last decade and a bit receiving almost every single thing that used to be a unique Chaos rule/ability/toy.
Instead, we keep being punished for the imagined crimes of the Eye of Terror campaign, where for once, Space Marines weren't simply handed their instant victory on a silver platter and instead had to choke down a helping of humble pie.
Because people don't want to feel like a joke. For so many, the faction they choose has a huge emotional investment in it. And the larger your personal army grows, the deeper that investment gets. So after 3.5 years seeing the gap grow wider and wider between the factions... yeah, there's some bitterness.
Forums exist for people to share their ideas and opinions. Both positive and negative. It's going to happen, as long as the perceived and actual unfairness of the game is a factor. Which, well, will be always.
They're way, way overdue an update and a boost in power level. I don't understand GW's decision on this - I'd buy a CSM army if they just put a little work into it. It's a great faction for kitbashing and innovating.
What case? That CSM get a hand-me-down version of a loyalist unit, missing half its rules but costing the same points? If fire raptors are so good why don't you see anyour SMCAD just to take one? It's a walking stick given to a paraplegic, then asking why he can't keep up.
What case? That CSM get a hand-me-down version of a loyalist unit, missing half its rules but costing the same points? If fire raptors are so good why don't you see anyour SMCAD just to take one? It's a walking stick given to a paraplegic, then asking why he can't keep up.
Choas fire raptor is a much improved loyalist fire-raptor. Fully capable of crippling 3 units a turn. You don't see any loyalist take the fire raptor because it is gak compared to the chaos version. LOL joking.
StarHunter25 wrote:-snip- then asking why he can't keep up.
welshhoppo wrote:
-snip- Its actually cheaper to play a HH legion army....
I believe that's his case for why CSM players are so bitter, not his case for why CSM players shouldn't be.
zerosignal wrote:They're way, way overdue an update and a boost in power level. I don't understand GW's decision on this - I'd buy a CSM army if they just put a little work into it. It's a great faction for kitbashing and innovating.
Don't be silly. It's how 40k works - you pay for customisability and interesting modelling opportunities by being rubbish on the table.
The 4E CSM codex has *one* really good thing. Lash of Submission. Aside from that, it was "eh" ok in terms of power level. CSM's were likewise not the dominant army of 4th edition. You're thinking of Eldar and the unkillable skimmerspam flying circus. CSM's were solid in 4E, and part of the problem currently is that the army really hasn't changed, it's still built around 4E & 5E core rules mechanics that no longer exist or function. You can't consolidate into new combats anymore (which was a good change, but an impactful one for CSM's), you can't assault out of a stationary transport anymore (a very poor core rules change), it's new Daemon Engines are built to function and costed to 5E vehicle rules, while newer armies get such units as far more capable MC's instead.
I take it you don't remember the other fourth edition codex then?
You know, the one with the all but unbeatable iron warriors builds, siren prince builds (that could not be targeted by enemy attacks) and the rest of Pete Haines' ridiculousness. It (and specifically, iron warriors) very much was the dominant army of most of fourth edition.
Trust me. It was bloody broken. The codex you're thinking about was the one that gave the one I'm talking about a good kneecapping. But the one I'm talking about would make any of the cheese builds today blush with shame.
Vaktathi wrote: [
[Even if we assume CSM's were the most broken OP army in 4th (though few would consider them to be so), how many people playing the game today played 4th? Maybe 5-10% of the playerbase? Most people play the game for a year, maybe two, and move on, very few play for multiple editions, much less through four of them or more. 4th edition hasn't been in place in 8 years, it's time to let it go.
Some did.
But surely, ten years is enough time to be in the doldrums?
Pete Haines is the only person at GW who has given CSM any real care and effort in like 20 years. He overdid it a bit and the 3.5 codex allowed some nasty builds (Iron Warriors being probably the main offenders) but it could have easily been solved with minor adjustments and tone-downs.
Much of the CSM criticism is warranted, as they are grossly overpriced for the most part, the model range is extremely dated, and CSM are the only army given new models that were clearly MCs in fluff and design, but were instead made vehicles (ie, dinobots).
What I can't stand is the belief that any Imperial unit should automatically have a Chaos version. This was really prevalent when the various Ad Mech armies came out, but also comes up every time there is a new loyalist marine release. If you want to play with the same toys as Loyalists, build an Imperial army, or play 30K.
I'm on the fence about the demand for Legion rules....per the fluff, most of the traitor legions are no longer functioning legions and haven't been for a long time; however, there are a few that have remained intact, and the game should represent that. How about GW make a bigger deal about those few legions that are intact (I believe its Alpha Legioin, Iron Warriors,and Word Bearers that still function as single unified organization) and publish a separate Codex for each, treating them in the same manner as Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc. The rest can be done via the CSM standard codex, which should really function in the same way as the Black Legion. Also, continue making a Daemonkin style book for each of the Chaos powers.
So, Legion rules for those few that remain intact is fine. For non-Legion (ie, the core CSM codex), revise the Mark system, make an army wide version that is based on the composition (Chaos Undivided tactic for mixed cult armies, specific tactics for single Cult armies), and also have the actual marks themselves as option for non-cult units.
The 4E CSM codex has *one* really good thing. Lash of Submission. Aside from that, it was "eh" ok in terms of power level. CSM's were likewise not the dominant army of 4th edition. You're thinking of Eldar and the unkillable skimmerspam flying circus. CSM's were solid in 4E, and part of the problem currently is that the army really hasn't changed, it's still built around 4E & 5E core rules mechanics that no longer exist or function. You can't consolidate into new combats anymore (which was a good change, but an impactful one for CSM's), you can't assault out of a stationary transport anymore (a very poor core rules change), it's new Daemon Engines are built to function and costed to 5E vehicle rules, while newer armies get such units as far more capable MC's instead.
I take it you don't remember the other fourth edition codex then?
You know, the one with the all but unbeatable iron warriors builds, siren prince builds (that could not be targeted by enemy attacks) and the rest of Pete Haines' ridiculousness. It (and specifically, iron warriors) very much was the dominant army of most of fourth edition.
Trust me. It was bloody broken. The codex you're thinking about was the one that gave the one I'm talking about a good kneecapping. But the one I'm talking about would make any of the cheese builds today blush with shame.
The book you are referring to was a 3E book, I do know it very well, but it was released two years before 4E was released. I was assuming when OP referenced the 4E CSM codex, they were referring to the CSM codex released during 4E.
Yeah, it had balance issues, absolutely, though even the nasiest IW army from that book would be thoroughly yawn inducing today and wouldnt do very well at all. That said, the fluff and feel of that book was excellent.
I think it's hilarious that people think that CSM players want an OP codex just because we want a decent fluffy codex full of rules that fully represent the myriad legions and warbands that were previously available to us and are prominent in the fluff.
Nobody said that other armies don't need updating. Hell, Eldar could do with an update, and by update I mean update their points costs to reflect the relative power of their units.
Some people genuinely want some effort put into their army. Some people want quality in their rules. I don't care if people think I'm asking too much, I want my legion rules back god damnit. I want proper special rules to represent all cult armies. I want a Daemon Weapon for all 4 gods, not just one. I want good warlord traits, amazing artifacts and fluffy formations that don't penalize me for taking actual normal Chaos Marines. I want the codex to stand on it's own and be able to at least have a 50/50 shot of taking on all other armies in the game. I consider this to be the bare minimum requirement for my satisfaction and I refuse acknowledge a job well done until these demands are met.
I think chaos players have very legitimate gripes about their current standing in the meta. Here's one of, if not the biggest bads of the villains in the fluff. One of the core factions of the entire game and franchise, and they are languishing with outdated rules and models.
I don't even play chaos and it annoys me that the Tau, a faction that IMO doesn't even fit the grim dark setting, get more attention than the main villains.
When GW is releasing rules for individual companies of loyalists, the fact the Legions are mostly fractured doesn't seem like a reason they shouldn't be supported.
The book you are referring to was a 3E book, I do know it very well, but it was released two years before 4E was released. I was assuming when OP referenced the 4E CSM codex, they were referring to the CSM codex released during 4E.
Yeah, it had balance issues, absolutely, though even the nasiest IW army from that book would be thoroughly yawn inducing today and wouldnt do very well at all. That said, the fluff and feel of that book was excellent.
You should clarify then.
It was technically one of the two third edition codices. The one I'm referring to here was released in 2002 as you say. The other was released in 1999.
Considering it was the codex that chaos players brutalised the vast majority of fourth edition with (four of its five year lifespan), in my mind it very much was the fourth edition codex, and it pretty nearly ruined 40k towards the end of its life. I still remember going to tournaments and every one else (I was the masochist who took tau, who were quite severely underpowered towards the tail end of fourth ed. le sigh, how things change!) running iron warriors. The 'fourth edition' codex you refer to was released in 2007 with fifth edition pretty much coming in on its heels in 2008, so I'd very much debate it as the 'true' fourth edition codex, since most of its lifespan was during fifth edition, but that's really just semantics we'd be debating.
And I'll debate the fluff and feel too, my good sir. The opening story of a csm decapitating a space marine from behind (despite his backpack making this impossible) was always a doozy, and I loved how loyalist marines were essentially made out of cardboard. In 'feel', it was just brutally overpowered compared to everything else that was there. When the next codex came along and kneecapped it, I shed no tears. Thst codex was a monstrosity.
The book you are referring to was a 3E book, I do know it very well, but it was released two years before 4E was released. I was assuming when OP referenced the 4E CSM codex, they were referring to the CSM codex released during 4E.
Yeah, it had balance issues, absolutely, though even the nasiest IW army from that book would be thoroughly yawn inducing today and wouldnt do very well at all. That said, the fluff and feel of that book was excellent.
You should clarify then.
It was technically one of the two third edition codices. The one I'm referring to here was released in 2002 as you say. The other was released in 1999.
Considering it was the codex that chaos players brutalised the vast majority of fourth edition with (four of its five year lifespan), in my mind it very much was the fourth edition codex, and it pretty nearly ruined 40k towards the end of its life. I still remember going to tournaments and every one else (I was the masochist who took tau, who were quite severely underpowered towards the tail end of fourth ed. le sigh, how things change!) running iron warriors. The 'fourth edition' codex you refer to was released in 2007 with fifth edition pretty much coming in on its heels in 2008, so I'd very much debate it as the 'true' fourth edition codex, since most of its lifespan was during fifth edition, but that's really just semantics we'd be debating.
And I'll debate the fluff and feel too, my good sir. The opening story of a csm decapitating a space marine from behind (despite his backpack making this impossible) was always a doozy, and I loved how loyalist marines were essentially made out of cardboard. In 'feel', it was just brutally overpowered compared to everything else that was there. When the next codex came along and kneecapped it, I shed no tears. Thst codex was a monstrosity.
By your own logic, then Loyalist players should no doubt suffer at least 10+ years of kneecapped, flavourless, garbage bin quality rules, since their 5th, 6th & now especially 7th edition rules are beyond obnoxious and have ruined the hobby for at least half the game's armies.
Remind me not to shed a tear when it's your army kicked to the curb and left to rot for over a decade if that's your attitude.
The book you are referring to was a 3E book, I do know it very well, but it was released two years before 4E was released. I was assuming when OP referenced the 4E CSM codex, they were referring to the CSM codex released during 4E.
Yeah, it had balance issues, absolutely, though even the nasiest IW army from that book would be thoroughly yawn inducing today and wouldnt do very well at all. That said, the fluff and feel of that book was excellent.
You should clarify then.
It was technically one of the two third edition codices. The one I'm referring to here was released in 2002 as you say. The other was released in 1999.
Considering it was the codex that chaos players brutalised the vast majority of fourth edition with (four of its five year lifespan), in my mind it very much was the fourth edition codex, and it pretty nearly ruined 40k towards the end of its life. I still remember going to tournaments and every one else (I was the masochist who took tau, who were quite severely underpowered towards the tail end of fourth ed. le sigh, how things change!) running iron warriors. The 'fourth edition' codex you refer to was released in 2007 with fifth edition pretty much coming in on its heels in 2008, so I'd very much debate it as the 'true' fourth edition codex, since most of its lifespan was during fifth edition, but that's really just semantics we'd be debating.
And I'll debate the fluff and feel too, my good sir. The opening story of a csm decapitating a space marine from behind (despite his backpack making this impossible) was always a doozy, and I loved how loyalist marines were essentially made out of cardboard. In 'feel', it was just brutally overpowered compared to everything else that was there. When the next codex came along and kneecapped it, I shed no tears. Thst codex was a monstrosity.
By your own logic, then Loyalist players should no doubt suffer at least 10+ years of kneecapped, flavourless, garbage bin quality rules, since their 5th, 6th & now especially 7th edition rules are beyond obnoxious and have ruined the hobby for at least half the game's armies.
Remind me not to shed a tear when it's your army kicked to the curb and left to rot for over a decade if that's your attitude.
I can think of one loyalist army that's well on its way there. Ben total ass since the end of 5th and continues to get worse.
You know, the one with the all but unbeatable iron warriors builds, siren prince builds (that could not be targeted by enemy attacks) and the rest of Pete Haines' ridiculousness. It (and specifically, iron warriors) very much was the dominant army of most of fourth edition.
Trust me. It was bloody broken. The codex you're thinking about was the one that gave the one I'm talking about a good kneecapping. But the one I'm talking about would make any of the cheese builds today blush with shame.
The difference between Iron Warriors and other CSM forces was that IW had access to 0-1 vindicator and 0-1 basilisk in addition to lifting the 0-1 restriction on obliterators, with 4 heavy support slots if they gave up 2 fast attack slots. I recall mainly the obliterators being the problem and that's something that could've been solved through editing. The Siren minor psychic powers could have been handled easily as well. Only other things that stand out are the Word Bearer "daemon bomb" lists that relied on a handful of bikers rushing forward madly to drop an astonishing amount of daemons into assault range and the daemon weapon that ignored invulnerable saves only put into the hands of a monstrous creature.
CSM players have every right to complain. I look at my SM codex, then at the CSM codex, and a little part of me dies. When I first got into the hobby I wanted to play CSM, but then I looked at the book.... Nope.
That being said, having all the CSM players complaining about the Loyalist players does get irritating, but it's at least partially warranted.
ClassicCarraway wrote: What I can't stand is the belief that any Imperial unit should automatically have a Chaos version.
And yet almost all of the FW crutch units are Imperial units that FW also let Chaos have. Chaos-only stuff, especially out of GW proper, tends to be inferior. Almost like they're intentionally designed that way.
ClassicCarraway wrote: I'm on the fence about the demand for Legion rules....per the fluff, most of the traitor legions are no longer functioning legions and haven't been for a long time
Last I checked NONE of the loyalist legions are functioning legions, and yet they all have chapter tactics for them and their successors for some reason.
War Kitten wrote: CSM players have every right to complain. I look at my SM codex, then at the CSM codex, and a little part of me dies. When I first got into the hobby I wanted to play CSM, but then I looked at the book.... Nope.
That being said, having all the CSM players complaining about the Loyalist players does get irritating, but it's at least partially warranted.
To be fair, Loyalist players in general have earned a reputation for being whiny, over-entitled spoiled brats over the past 8-9 years...
When they get new rules & new toys, it never seems to be quite good enough, yet when someone else gets a better toy, it's blatantly unfair that Marines don't have anything that's apparently remotely close in power level.
When there's an ability or weapon that can wholesale remove a Space Marine's save, it's automatically decried as OP/broken. Yet as long as those types of weapons are available en mass to Marines themselves, all's fair & balanced.
When Chaos occasionally gets a single useful toy, or can put together a single cookie-cutter list that can go toe-to-toe with Loyalists, then the game is broken beyond repair and Chaos players are nothing more than a bunch of scummy, WaaC's TFG's.
It's a vicious cycle, but Loyalists are equally a part of it. Chaos players take more offense to it, simply because every cool, characterful rule & toy that Loyalist players now enjoy used to be ours.
Instead, what's been left to us has simply been turned into a Loyalist -10 version.
Lets look at the bright side here. I've only had to buy one codex since 2012. Think of all the money I saved not playing the game competitively for the last 2 years.
You know, about the time every one started getting their 2nd codex update in 7th. But thank goodness our benevolent GW overlords decided that the first updated codex of 6th edition is perfect how it is and needs no sort of tweaking. You know, besides taking a nerf bat to the heldrake once it sold enough models.
Then again, I shouldn't be complaining, I could always just purchase a couple hundred dollars in FW books and models to be able to put up a moderate chance. Except forge world is not universally accepted everywhere like most standard 40K is. So i could be spending an excessive amount of money on models that I won't get to play with at all.
But at least they'll look good on my shelf.... right next to the incredibly outdated models of most of the CSM line. Thank goodness out benevolent GW overlords have decided that the models they created from God knows when are the best iteration they've ever made. It's best not to try to improve on perfection after all.
But most of all, thank you benevolent GW overlords for teaching me that my army is not designed to be played, but instead collected and displayed. They are a model company and not a rule company after all. They have no obligation to actually takes steps towards keeping their game's rule set from getting blown out of proportion. It's the models that matter. Why else would we want to spend more that double the cost of what other model company's offer.
War Kitten wrote: CSM players have every right to complain. I look at my SM codex, then at the CSM codex, and a little part of me dies. When I first got into the hobby I wanted to play CSM, but then I looked at the book.... Nope.
That being said, having all the CSM players complaining about the Loyalist players does get irritating, but it's at least partially warranted.
To be fair, Loyalist players in general have earned a reputation for being whiny, over-entitled spoiled brats over the past 8-9 years...
When they get new rules & new toys, it never seems to be quite good enough, yet when someone else gets a better toy, it's blatantly unfair that Marines don't have anything that's apparently remotely close in power level.
When there's an ability or weapon that can wholesale remove a Space Marine's save, it's automatically decried as OP/broken. Yet as long as those types of weapons are available en mass to Marines themselves, all's fair & balanced.
When Chaos occasionally gets a single useful toy, or can put together a single cookie-cutter list that can go toe-to-toe with Loyalists, then the game is broken beyond repair and Chaos players are nothing more than a bunch of scummy, WaaC's TFG's.
It's a vicious cycle, but Loyalists are equally a part of it. Chaos players take more offense to it, simply because every cool, characterful rule & toy that Loyalist players now enjoy used to be ours.
Instead, what's been left to us has simply been turned into a Loyalist -10 version.
I won't deny that some Loyalist players are like that. Heck, I've seen some of them on this very site! But lumping all of us SM players into that group is unfair to the ones who aren't that way
War Kitten wrote: CSM players have every right to complain. I look at my SM codex, then at the CSM codex, and a little part of me dies. When I first got into the hobby I wanted to play CSM, but then I looked at the book.... Nope.
That being said, having all the CSM players complaining about the Loyalist players does get irritating, but it's at least partially warranted.
To be fair, Loyalist players in general have earned a reputation for being whiny, over-entitled spoiled brats over the past 8-9 years...
When they get new rules & new toys, it never seems to be quite good enough, yet when someone else gets a better toy, it's blatantly unfair that Marines don't have anything that's apparently remotely close in power level.
When there's an ability or weapon that can wholesale remove a Space Marine's save, it's automatically decried as OP/broken. Yet as long as those types of weapons are available en mass to Marines themselves, all's fair & balanced.
When Chaos occasionally gets a single useful toy, or can put together a single cookie-cutter list that can go toe-to-toe with Loyalists, then the game is broken beyond repair and Chaos players are nothing more than a bunch of scummy, WaaC's TFG's.
It's a vicious cycle, but Loyalists are equally a part of it. Chaos players take more offense to it, simply because every cool, characterful rule & toy that Loyalist players now enjoy used to be ours.
Instead, what's been left to us has simply been turned into a Loyalist -10 version.
Out of curiosity, I'm a CSM player myself, but a newish one, I keep hearing that loyalists got our old stuff, maybe it's becuasr I started when 6th first started but what things did they take?
Chaos used to be the undisputed masters of Deep Strike ---> super cheap Drop Pod + Drop Pod Assault (instead we get pods that are 3x more expensive and can eat the model(s) being transported, because... "feth Chaos!"
Dark Blade ---> Relic blade
Close combat Dread/Furioso ---> basic Dreads now 4 attacks
Oblits/Mutiators ---> Centurions
Jugger Lord ---> Thunderwolf Cav
Possessed ---> Wulfen
Inferno Bolts ---> Special ammo
Sorcerers ---> Librarius Conclave (it's literally a carbon copy of our old Apoc formation...)
Literally, every unique toy outside of our Daemon engines, Loyalists have a better version of, while ours has either been taken away entirely, (Legion rules/Dark blades), or else is a massively inferior version.
Out of curiosity, I'm a CSM player myself, but a newish one, I keep hearing that loyalists got our old stuff, maybe it's becuasr I started when 6th first started but what things did they take?
Chapter tactics were in chaos as legion rules is the one I know
I missed the days were SM were not flat out better i.e. SM auto cannons use to have a chance to jam compared to the reaper
I also miss buying powers for my psykers rather than RNG luck
Out of curiosity, I'm a CSM player myself, but a newish one, I keep hearing that loyalists got our old stuff, maybe it's becuasr I started when 6th first started but what things did they take?
Chapter tactics were in chaos as legion rules is the one I know
I missed the days were SM were not flat out better i.e. SM auto cannons use to have a chance to jam compared to the reaper
I also miss buying powers for my psykers rather than RNG luck
Chaos used to be the undisputed masters of Deep Strike ---> super cheap Drop Pod + Drop Pod Assault (instead we get pods that are 3x more expensive and can eat the model(s) being transported, because... "feth Chaos!"
Dark Blade ---> Relic blade
Close combat Dread/Furioso ---> basic Dreads now 4 attacks
Oblits/Mutiators ---> Centurions
Jugger Lord ---> Thunderwolf Cav
Possessed ---> Wulfen
Inferno Bolts ---> Special ammo
Sorcerers ---> Librarius Conclave (it's literally a carbon copy of our old Apoc formation...)
Literally, every unique toy outside of our Daemon engines, Loyalists have a better version of, while ours has either been taken away entirely, (Legion rules/Dark blades), or else is a massively inferior version.
In 2nd ed chaos space marines barely had any deep strike capability; that was a daemon thing. Terminator teleportation and jump packs were prohibitively expensive options. So from my perspective the 'deep strike specialists' thing was a blip.
Out of curiosity, I'm a CSM player myself, but a newish one, I keep hearing that loyalists got our old stuff, maybe it's becuasr I started when 6th first started but what things did they take?
Chapter tactics were in chaos as legion rules is the one I know
I missed the days were SM were not flat out better i.e. SM auto cannons use to have a chance to jam compared to the reaper
I also miss buying powers for my psykers rather than RNG luck
Chaos used to be the undisputed masters of Deep Strike ---> super cheap Drop Pod + Drop Pod Assault (instead we get pods that are 3x more expensive and can eat the model(s) being transported, because... "feth Chaos!"
Dark Blade ---> Relic blade
Close combat Dread/Furioso ---> basic Dreads now 4 attacks
Oblits/Mutiators ---> Centurions
Jugger Lord ---> Thunderwolf Cav
Possessed ---> Wulfen
Inferno Bolts ---> Special ammo
Sorcerers ---> Librarius Conclave (it's literally a carbon copy of our old Apoc formation...)
Literally, every unique toy outside of our Daemon engines, Loyalists have a better version of, while ours has either been taken away entirely, (Legion rules/Dark blades), or else is a massively inferior version.
In 2nd ed chaos space marines barely had any deep strike capability; that was a daemon thing. Terminator teleportation and jump packs were prohibitively expensive options. So from my perspective the 'deep strike specialists' thing was a blip.
I'm not very familiar with 2nd edition, but I've read through some of the third edition rules. The chaos marines themselves couldn't deepstrike, but they had tons of options that let their daemon pals (who were still part of the same codex) deepstrike in better. So maybe it's more accurate to say "chaos" was the undisputed master of deepstriking. But yeah. I miss daemon weapons. I genuinely forgot they were in the current codex for a while because they're so rare/hard to access.
My main gripes about chaos marines are that they're A) just not fluffy and B) have a playstyle that's harder to find satisfying. Fluff-wise, it's hard to make an Alpha Legion army that feels sneaky. I've taken to using Raptor chapter tactics an loyalist rules for this. Thousand Sons mutate left and right despite the Rubric and are more limited in power selection than loyalist marines. Also, the rubric marines are relatively durable against anti-tank shots, but die just as easily as normal marines to small arms fire despite the opposite being true in fluff. You can't play a recently-fallen marine chapter either because all your drop pods, grav guns, etc. got lost when you turned traitor. Your dark mechanicum pals who went rogue in order to innovate and invent more freely seem to put out new tech a lot more slowly than the loyalist tech priests for some reason. Khorne marines don't melee as well as Space Wolves or even Blood Angels. Tzeentch Marines don't shoot or psychic as well as stern guard, librarius conclaves, or grey knights. Slaanesh and Nurgle marines are actually pretty fluffy, though the former have conflicted rules that hinder each other. You also can't really play up marines who have thrown themselves into the arms of chaos because they have so much trouble allying with daemons. Sure, my Slaaneshi marines can team up with daemonettes, but I can't stick him in a squad of seekers or have my herald lead a mob of cultists.
As for not being as satisfying in terms of playstyle... My eldar have flavorful rules that really capture the feel of the units. My dark eldar can dash across the table and launch lightning assaults. My imperial forces can roll up in metal boxes or deepstrike while calling upon fluffy/thematic chapter tactics to forge their own unique play styles. Even my genestealer heavy tyranids are at least interesting because they make my opponent sweat turn 1. The playstyle of chaos marines is basically just power armor marines (with all the problems that come with that) + some lolrandom tables that I find neither fun nor fluffy. Randomly mutating after a challenge is not particularly engaging to me (though it would be a neat optional rule). I'd much rather have legion tactics that let me play fluffy Alpha Legion or some way of delivering all my melee centric units.
I still have fun with my CSM! They're the army I turn to when I want to push a blob of FNP Slaaneshi marines across the table and don't mind losing. But they could be so much more flavorful and have so much more engaging of a playstyle. I wish I were more of a fan of Khorne because the daemonkin rules are fluffy and interesting!
Experiment 626 wrote:
By your own logic, then Loyalist players should no doubt suffer at least 10+ years of kneecapped, flavourless, garbage bin quality rules, since their 5th, 6th & now especially 7th edition rules are beyond obnoxious and have ruined the hobby for at least half the game's armies.
Remind me not to shed a tear when it's your army kicked to the curb and left to rot for over a decade if that's your attitude.
I already had that - I played tau through the tail end of third, fourth and the start of fifth edition. I saw its power and niche erode to the point where the codex was an utter irrelevance. Then I moved on to warmachine and infinity. The new tau codex - yeah, it didn't grab me, I'm afraid. I'd moved on by that point. Regarding marines though, you should look at dark angels - they had some terribly lacklustre codices for a long, long time. Same with blood Angels. I recommend them being the whipping boys for the game for a while too.
But FYI, regarding my 'attitude', you do realise I said I'd had enough of csm being out in the cold? You must have missed that part. The chaos codex ruined fourth edition and I was glad it got kneecapped in the end- overpowered codices ruin the game. And I'd say the same for any other overpowered nonsense that dominates as well-I have no issues with overpowered stuff getting reined in. If that's marines, then I have no issues with marines getting kneecapped.
So get off your soapbox please, it's not needed and frankly, it's out of place.
rosebuddy wrote:
The difference between Iron Warriors and other CSM forces was that IW had access to 0-1 vindicator and 0-1 basilisk in addition to lifting the 0-1 restriction on obliterators, with 4 heavy support slots if they gave up 2 fast attack slots. I recall mainly the obliterators being the problem and that's something that could've been solved through editing. The Siren minor psychic powers could have been handled easily as well. Only other things that stand out are the Word Bearer "daemon bomb" lists that relied on a handful of bikers rushing forward madly to drop an astonishing amount of daemons into assault range and the daemon weapon that ignored invulnerable saves only put into the hands of a monstrous creature.
The problem with fifth ed guard was underpriced/overpowered vendettas and Valkyries. It doesn't matter if it's 'just' one thing, if that one thing is spammed, and everyone and their monkey abuses it, then it's a problem. In this case, those iron warriors with their basilisks, 3x3 obliterators etc utterly dominated the game at the time to an extent nothing else could really match. And really,bit was pretty much all you saw.
It doesn't matter if it's 'just' one thing, if that one thing is spammed, and everyone and their monkey abuses it, then it's a problem.
If it is just one thing that is a genuine problem, "the rest of Pete Haines' ridiculousness" doesn't really exist. If the balance problems of the codex are limited to the one page that Iron Warriors got and the Siren minor psychic power then there's no point to throwing everything out to fix it. It's silly to bear a grudge against the entire codex because of the contents of one page that applied to one variant army. It's like hating rangers because wraithknights are so good.
I already had that - I played tau through the tail end of third, fourth and the start of fifth edition. I saw its power and niche erode to the point where the codex was an utter irrelevance. Then I moved on to warmachine and infinity. The new tau codex - yeah, it didn't grab me, I'm afraid. I'd moved on by that point. Regarding marines though, you should look at dark angels - they had some terribly lacklustre codices for a long, long time. Same with blood Angels. I recommend them being the whipping boys for the game for a while too.
But FYI, regarding my 'attitude', you do realise I said I'd had enough of csm being out in the cold? You must have missed that part. The chaos codex ruined fourth edition and I was glad it got kneecapped in the end- overpowered codices ruin the game. And I'd say the same for any other overpowered nonsense that dominates as well-I have no issues with overpowered stuff getting reined in. If that's marines, then I have no issues with marines getting kneecapped.
...You were glad the 3.5 Chaos codex was kneecapped when the Orks, 5th ed. SM codex and Grey Knights came out afterwards and did more damage than any Haines induced nightmare could possibly have dared to dream of?
You were glad that a single Legion's rules and a single Minor Psychic Power that you effectively had to buy 6 rolls on a table to guarantee were removed at the cost of every other Legion's rules and the generification of a Codex on a scale yet to be seen again (only for all the options and half the weapons to reappear with 'Imperial' names a few months later in the 5th ed. SM codex.
Oh, wait, I forgot. You blatantly stated that the Chaos Codex ruined 4th edition. Not the Ork codex that came out before with glorious Biker spam. Not the SM codex with Chapter Traits (that were horrendously easy to exploit). Not the Tyranid codex with TMC Eternal Warrior spam.
And your justification was 'I played Tau.'
'Hey guys, I played an army that was entirely firepower reliant in an edition that actually had favourable assault rules. As such I blame a strong assault army for ruining the edition for me by forcing me to have to deal with my army's inbuilt weakness - almost like our obscene firepower was balanced around us being wet paper bags in assault, eh?'
Of course, now in 7th ed. the firepower army that is Tau has BETTER multiwound heavy infantry, better mobility and better Monstrous and Gargantuan creatures than Tyranids or Daemons. You know, the two armies that you'd probably consider heavy 'monster' infantry and monster specialists.
Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that the army's inherent weakness (which you were expected to learn to play around and your opponents were expected to exploit) has been beaten into the ground by the core rules themselves to the extent that the assault armies (Tyranids, Daemons, Orks, Chaos) are being forced to become ghetto firepower armies to just be viable.
Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that the army's inherent weakness (which you were expected to learn to play around and your opponents were expected to exploit)
People did play around it, it was called "Fish of Fury" and everyone hated it.
Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that the army's inherent weakness (which you were expected to learn to play around and your opponents were expected to exploit)
People did play around it, it was called "Fish of Fury" and everyone hated it.
But clearly that didn't RUIN 40K FOREVER like 2 pages of the 3.5 CSM codex did otherwise he would have said, right?
Lets please not turn this to a Tau vs CSM "who suffered more" sludge fest.
I'm tau, I think that person (deadnight) is an idiot for having the stance that CSM deserve their blandness, or that they at any point "ruined the game" at any point. I played tau in 5th as well, it was full-on hardcore difficulty, the game evolved and now we are top tier and CSM are garbage, move on, fix what is, not what was.
We always had obscenely powerful armies around, once upon a time it was CSM, it also used to be GK, IM, SW and necrons at other points in time, and Eldar being a repeat offender.
The fact at one point CSM was overpowered has no bearing on its current status, and its current status is being amazingly bad. conventional wisdom says tactical marines are meh, and CSM are a few good levels under them. in fact half the CSM lines are a downgraded version of a loyalist unit that is considered meh to begin with.
I'm not very familiar with 2nd edition, but I've read through some of the third edition rules. The chaos marines themselves couldn't deepstrike, but they had tons of options that let their daemon pals (who were still part of the same codex) deepstrike in better.
In 2nd ed if you were facing a Chaos army and wanted to DS anything you had to roll to see if your unit was replaced by a Daemon on the way in. That included Warp Spiders making their short range teleports.
Also this thread is full of useless hyperbole like "all SM players are entitled children" and "all CSM players are whining children". Not a huge surprise considering who authored the thread.
I'm not very familiar with 2nd edition, but I've read through some of the third edition rules. The chaos marines themselves couldn't deepstrike, but they had tons of options that let their daemon pals (who were still part of the same codex) deepstrike in better.
In 2nd ed if you were facing a Chaos army and wanted to DS anything you had to roll to see if your unit was replaced by a Daemon on the way in. That included Warp Spiders making their short range teleports.
Also this thread is full of useless hyperbole like "all SM players are entitled children" and "all CSM players are whining children". Not a huge surprise considering who authored the thread.
There's no denying thought that whenever Chaos of any flavour gets a cool, powerful, sometimes legitimately broken toy, it causes the most uproar compared to any other army getting the same.
When IW's & Siren were "ruining" the game entirely?
Sure they were busted as feth, but Eldar were still the kings of the game, and SW's were also a thing. Power Necron lists at the time were also nearly impossible to put down, and then the early 4th ed books brought the likes of Vanilla Marines, Tau & Tyranids up to similar levels.
While the 4th ed codex was a complete travesty, there were unending whinefests regarding the one thing Chaos actually had going for it - Lash of Submission.
Didn't matter that Chaos lost all it's flavour, or that to even stand a chance Chaos players were forced to field what was a fluff travesty of a list, it was kool to hate-on anyone playing a Lash list and treat them like the biggest TFG in the room.
Look at when the Helturkey came out. Everyone and their mother decried it the game barely playable at that point.
Even despite it now being nerfed into the ground, there's still moaning & groaning about how we have a S6/ap3 template that can remove Marines!
7th Comes around and Chaos finally gets a leg up with the new Psychic phase & Summoning? Every other topic it seemed was aimed at how to neuter the ever living feth out Daemons especially.
From the perspective of someone who's been around since 3rd ed, it does seem like we're not allowed to have toys that are equal to everyone else, as there's always been a consistent level of moaning about Chaos being OP.
I'm not very familiar with 2nd edition, but I've read through some of the third edition rules. The chaos marines themselves couldn't deepstrike, but they had tons of options that let their daemon pals (who were still part of the same codex) deepstrike in better.
In 2nd ed if you were facing a Chaos army and wanted to DS anything you had to roll to see if your unit was replaced by a Daemon on the way in. That included Warp Spiders making their short range teleports.
Also this thread is full of useless hyperbole like "all SM players are entitled children" and "all CSM players are whining children". Not a huge surprise considering who authored the thread.
There's no denying thought that whenever Chaos of any flavour gets a cool, powerful, sometimes legitimately broken toy, it causes the most uproar compared to any other army getting the same.
Eeem, tau would like to have a word with you. we get called out to be OP even when we are bottom tier. (been a while from then, but still)
What I think is far worse: my main army was Chaos space marines, I really cannot be bothered to complain.
What is the point?
Instead I move-on to other games that have models I like that I can play and <gasp!> be competitive.
Think real hard if you are tempted to say "Good! didn't want you anyway." That is what makes for an eventual dead game.
It doesn't matter if it's 'just' one thing, if that one thing is spammed, and everyone and their monkey abuses it, then it's a problem.
If it is just one thing that is a genuine problem, "the rest of Pete Haines' ridiculousness" doesn't really exist. If the balance problems of the codex are limited to the one page that Iron Warriors got and the Siren minor psychic power then there's no point to throwing everything out to fix it. It's silly to bear a grudge against the entire codex because of the contents of one page that applied to one variant army. It's like hating rangers because wraithknights are so good.
The Rangers/wraithknight comparison doesn't really work I'm afraid.
the rest of the codex being relatively OK (which, generally it was) would have been fine, its just it was never seen – that 1 page of iron warriors was literally all that got taken by a huge portion of the player base.
:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
...You were glad the 3.5 Chaos codex was kneecapped when the Orks, 5th ed. SM codex and Grey Knights came out afterwards and did more damage than any Haines induced nightmare could possibly have dared to dream of?
I was glad it got kneecapped, yes. It was a terribly balanced codex that was severely overpowered for its era, and a lot of armies and players (and variety) of that era suffered hugely. As to GKs, 5th ork bikers and the fifth SM codex, (and don’t forget IG leafblower too!) I didn’t play during fifth, but rest assured, I was shaking my head with it and very much disagreed with them as well. By the time they were released though, I wasn’t playing 40k, so didn’t have a dog in the fight. If I was playing, I’d probably be saying the same thing as you. The grey knights moaning of fifth reminded me so much of what was said about iron warriors back in fourth.
DarkStarSabre wrote:
You were glad that a single Legion's rules and a single Minor Psychic Power that you effectively had to buy 6 rolls on a table to guarantee were removed at the cost of every other Legion's rules and the generification of a Codex on a scale yet to be seen again (only for all the options and half the weapons to reappear with 'Imperial' names a few months later in the 5th ed. SM codex.
I said I was glad it got kneecapped, and had its power level reined in, yes. That single legions rules upended fourth edition. I had no real issues with the generification of the following codex at the time – remember, for a while GW went with a ‘back to basics’ approach to codex design (dark angels were written in a similar manner as well) so considering that, I thought it was fair game. That said, For what it's worth – when the next chaos codex was released, I bought it, read it and sold it. First time I’ve ever done that- I was actually very, very disappointed with its quality and its utter lack of character and overall blandness. I felt it was just one diemensional and kind of kiddie, really. I stopped buying codices after that and didn’t really get any hands on involvement with the rest of fifth.
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Oh, wait, I forgot. You blatantly stated that the Chaos Codex ruined 4th edition. Not the Ork codex that came out before with glorious Biker spam. Not the SM codex with Chapter Traits (that were horrendously easy to exploit). Not the Tyranid codex with TMC Eternal Warrior spam.
Yes, my memories of fourth ed pretty much put the chaos codex at the pinnacle of everything that was wrong with that edition. SM, even with chapter traits were a diet version of the CSM codex. Worst they really did was 6 man las/plas and assault cannon spam. Chapter traits were nothing on the legion rules. Orks weren’t really a thing for most of fourth until the nob bikerz list towards the very end (and that was really a fifth ed codex).
DarkStarSabre wrote:
And your justification was 'I played Tau.'
No, my comment to experiment 626 was less ‘justification’ and more a response to the notion that I should sit with my army and suffer for years with a terrible codex. My counter point was that I did precisely that.
DarkStarSabre wrote:
'Hey guys, I played an army that was entirely firepower reliant in an edition that actually had favourable assault rules. As such I blame a strong assault army for ruining the edition for me by forcing me to have to deal with my army's inbuilt weakness - almost like our obscene firepower was balanced around us being wet paper bags in assault, eh?'
Spare me the melodrama. And if you are going to put words in my mouth, please try and be accurate about it.
You do realise iron warriors were a shooty build, right? With some brutal cc elements. Hilt in – read up on the first turn charge ‘nike lords’ of that era. Infiltrate, moved as cavalry, and with daemonic visage would force -2 to ld checks-they would easily roll up a flank. And lets be clear, im not sure what you’re exposure to tau in fourth or fifth edition was, but ‘obscene’ wasn’t really the word to describe it. Tau for the most part were quite mediocre even in firepower stakes – plenty armies could outshoot them with no effort at all, and while they had a relatively decent build at the start of fourth edition that had aged terribly by the end of it, and by fifth, they were essentially an irrelevance.
For the record, I had no problem with tau being terrible at cc. I was quite happy to work around it. I was one of the first to embrace mech-tau when it was a thing back then. Its just the tau ‘strengths’ weren’t really that strong, and they aged very poorly as the edition continued.
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Of course, now in 7th ed. the firepower army that is Tau has BETTER multiwound heavy infantry, better mobility and better Monstrous and Gargantuan creatures than Tyranids or Daemons. You know, the two armies that you'd probably consider heavy 'monster' infantry and monster specialists.
Yes?
And I don’t play 7th ed, but if you want me to say that current era tau have some ridiculous stuff, I’ll fully agree with you. Personally, I stopped caring about tau the second the riptide was released. Tau of 4th edition would have laughed at the silliness of the riptides and those fugly stormsurges and the rest of the giant mech muck GW have going on now (my opinion of course). But with the tau 5th ed codex, Gw started turning tau into something I really didn’t enjoy, and that was partly the reason why I shelved 40k at that point. but that’s a response for another topic.
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that the army's inherent weakness (which you were expected to learn to play around and your opponents were expected to exploit) has been beaten into the ground by the core rules themselves to the extent that the assault armies (Tyranids, Daemons, Orks, Chaos) are being forced to become ghetto firepower armies to just be viable.
Youre talking past me here. This refers to the current edition?
It was a combination of things back in fourth. Like I said, tau were mediocre, and only got worse whilst chaos was so far ahead of that era’s firepower that it was ridiculous. And I pretty much played around my armies weaknesses whatever extent I could. Didn't make much difference when you came up against chaos, which invariably meant iron warriors sadly enough.
DarkStarSabre wrote:
But clearly that didn't RUIN 40K FOREVER like 2 pages of the 3.5 CSM codex did otherwise he would have said, right?
Trust me, there was a huge difference between what a fish of fury could accomplish and what iron warriors did. Bring objective about I, Fish of fury was a nice trick, with a very hefty pricetag (12 firewarriors, with sergeant in a devilfish with the obligatory decoy launchers, disruption pod and targeting array was just shy of 250pts), took ages to get there (thry wouldn't be doing anything until turn two or three), wouldn’t do much (1 round of rapid fire?), could be countered very easily and again, compared to the CSM’s codex with things like a squad of havoks with their tank hunting autocannons and infiltrate, nike lords, plague marines and then,the legion rules it really fell short of the mark. Especially as fourth edition progressed, it really stopped being a thing. To be honest, it never even really was.
BoomWolf wrote:
Lets please not turn this to a Tau vs CSM "who suffered more" sludge fest.
Im not. I only brought it up because experiment 626 decided to taunt me with a quote, whilst standing on her soapbox along the lines of
'Remind me not to shed a tear when it's your army kicked to the curb and left to rot for over a decade if that's your attitude. '
Then there's folks like you with playground taunts and petty juvenile 'idiot' insults that are past the pale, to be perfectly blunt.
Like I said, I played that army that was kicked to the curb for three editions.
BoomWolf wrote:
I'm tau, I think that person (deadnight) is an idiot for having the stance that CSM deserve their blandness, or that they at any point "ruined the game" at any point.
I’d be right though. I played through that era and I saw it with my own eyes. Iron warriors were a cancer on fourth edition. And FYI, I never said CSM deserved their blandness, I said they deserved to have their power reined in. that said, the ‘back to basics’ approach was fine, and would have been so had everything else gone that way as well. But as I said elsewhere, chaos has been out in the cold for ten years now. That’s long enough (and before anyone misconstrues this, that’s another way of saying they deserve a bit of a boost, chaos players have been suffering for a long time now, they need some new shinies)
BoomWolf wrote:
I'm tau, I think that person (deadnight) is an idiot…
Oh, and its one thing to disagree with me. Its one thing to even put words in my mouth. But please, lets leave the schoolyard taunts and petty insults and names aside. And congratulations, you’re being reported for this doozy.
Experiment 626 wrote:
There's no denying thought that whenever Chaos of any flavour gets a cool, powerful, sometimes legitimately broken toy, it causes the most uproar compared to any other army getting the same.
I dunno about that. I think there is more than enough codex envy to go round the 40k community. Game breaking things generally cause uproar. Iron warriors, siren prince, leaf blower, taudar, etc etc
Experiment 626 wrote:
Sure they were busted as feth, but Eldar were still the kings of the game, and SW's were also a thing. Power Necron lists at the time were also nearly impossible to put down, and then the early 4th ed books brought the likes of Vanilla Marines, Tau & Tyranids up to similar levels.
Space wolves were never really that much of a thing back in fourth - their heyday was third (rhino rush) and fifth (long fang spam). Thry kinda got put on the back burner a lot during fourth and they paid far too much for abilities that they didn't get much use out of. The old necron codex again was nothing on what they are now. Tau struggled, but most armies could put down enough pie plates and firepower to force them to phase out quite quickly (I saw it numerous times in a single turn). Eldar - yeah, the Holofield Falcons were quite ridiculous (and gave no end of headaches), but I do remember for all that, it was still a step down from the starcannon spam, alaitoc disruption table, crystal targeting matrices and ulthwe seer councils of third. For all their nastiness, it was as much skimmers moving fast that pushed their vehicles over the line.
I do miss nidzilla though. Had a few fun games against spammed carnifexes.
Experiment 626 wrote:
While the 4th ed codex was a complete travesty, there were unending whinefests regarding the one thing Chaos actually had going for it - Lash of Submission. Didn't matter that Chaos lost all it's flavour, or that to even stand a chance Chaos players were forced to field what was a fluff travesty of a list, it was kool to hate-on anyone playing a Lash list and treat them like the biggest TFG in the room.
Look at when the Helturkey came out. Everyone and their mother decried it the game barely playable at that point.
No offense, but I saw imperial guard players get shouted out of the room for taking Valkyries in fifth, taking space wolves made you an automatic tfg, all you had to say was 'I have two riptides' or field marker lights to earn an opponents undying hatred if you played tau. Chaos didn't get it any worse.
Lash was, honestly deserving of criticism. But not because of its power, but rather because it let someone else control your army. I think that annoyed a lot of people and I don't necessarily disagree with them.
The thing with the helturkeys was as much about gw's forcing a shift towards 'buy the new Flyers' as much as anything else. That was around the 'summer of discontent' wasn't it, or am I mixing up my dates here in my old age?
Experiment 626 wrote:
Even despite it now being nerfed into the ground, there's still moaning & groaning about how we have a S6/ap3 template that can remove Marines!
40k players complain? I've seen folks complain about Thei opponents putting their marines in rhinos. I had a guy, straight faced, tell me back in fifth how tau were broken because although they were terrible at cc, you could put them in transports to try to avoid it.
Experiment 626 wrote:
From the perspective of someone who's been around since 3rd ed, it does seem like we're not allowed to have toys that are equal to everyone else, as there's always been a consistent level of moaning about Chaos being OP.
Could it be thoug that maybe chaos just doesn't have any 'champions' on the design team any more? Or could it be a deliberate push to make space marines the go-to army, with csm' being the archetypal opponent that exists to fail and be gunned down? Maybe, partly it's that they couldn't figure out how to do 'ancient bitter veterans of the long war' in a way that translated to something cool on the table top?
Moaning about chaos in early fourth was justified - let's be clear. The codex was ridiculous. But there is plenty other stuff out there now. Ten years is a long enough time to be waiting. I'll agree with you there.
Iron Warriors in 3rd were no more obnoxious than Eldar or SW's or nigh unkillable Necrons. Eldar still won the most tournaments overall of any army.
Also, later printings of the 3.5 codex fixed the Oblits to their proper T4(5), meaning they were suddenly a good deal easier to simply double-out with S8. Yes, Iron Warriors were obnoxious, but they were no more toxic to the game than what Eldar (especially the Craftworld codex!) were, while SW's, Necrons and even the newly arrived Tau were readily capable of playing on the same level.
Tau 'fish of fury' was strong throughout almost the entire lifespan of 4th, and "ruined 40k" for just as many people as IW's "ruined 40k" for people in 3rd.
Meanwhile, once Vanilla's got their 4th ed codex with the Chapter Traits system, they easily came up to the same level as IW's, between min/maxed Las/Plas Tacticals, and Infiltrating Devastators.
Chaos has had one, lonely moment of glory since the beginning of 3rd ed. Only Dark Angels can claim to have been equally as woeful, though at least they've gotten a new book that let's them play with the big boys. (and being Space Marines, their model line is the among the best in the game!)
Overall, we've been among the worst armies in the game for nearly 20 years now... (1st half of 3rd, 4th, skipped over in 5th, 6th, now 7th/7.5ed)
And our model line is in an even worse state than freaking Sisters! Sure their models are expensive and harder to get a hold of. But at least GW produced pretty much every possible upgrade available for their various squads! Not to mention they look ace, despite their extreme age.
Chaos on the other hand is still missing about half our basic upgrades, with the majority of our line looking like it was designed as an afterthought by a bunch of rejected trainees.
You're exaggerating on their model line being worse than Sisters.
I mean, it isn't great, but the Sister models are frickin METAL. There's hardly any ability to customize (metal is a pain to work with) and everything is more expensive.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're exaggerating on their model line being worse than Sisters.
I mean, it isn't great, but the Sister models are frickin METAL. There's hardly any ability to customize (metal is a pain to work with) and everything is more expensive.
Sisters still look a heck of a lot nicer than CSM's, have far fewer miscast issues going for them, and don't have to and loot 2-3 other army's model lines just to build their own basic upgrades.
Besides, I'd easily jump for joy to see every last one of our multitude of Finecrap models go back to metal! At least it's possible to get a proper cast come out of those molds!
If Sisters were all Fineco$t, I'd agree that their model line is the absolute worst. Lucky for them, they're still metal. (though it's still infuriating & absolutely criminal that GW refuses to re-launch them in plastic.)
Experiment 626 wrote: Iron Warriors in 3rd were no more obnoxious than Eldar or SW's or nigh unkillable Necrons. Eldar still won the most tournaments overall of any army.
Also, later printings of the 3.5 codex fixed the Oblits to their proper T4(5), meaning they were suddenly a good deal easier to simply double-out with S8. Yes, Iron Warriors were obnoxious, but they were no more toxic to the game than what Eldar (especially the Craftworld codex!) were, while SW's, Necrons and even the newly arrived Tau were readily capable of playing on the same level.
.
Good thing I'm talking about fourth edition, not third.
Third ed was silly. Rhino rush or shoot the rhino rush. Craft world eldar were a whole other level - I'll agree with you there. They could do some ridiculous things. That said, the fourth ed eldar codex did give them a good kneecapping in a lot of ways, and while holofalcons were still obnoxious, it steadily eroded. Fourth edition eldar (as nasty as some of their stuff was) was a far cry from what thry could do in third. There was a great cheer from non-eldar players when that codex was released and killed starcannon spam.I remember when hull points came in and Falcons could be glanced to death, it made me smile as well, but that was much later in the history of 40k. (I really wish I had one game against those brutal fourth ed vehicle builds p, but with hill points. Just to exorcise the bitterness. )
You're wrong about space wolves though. For most of fourth they were just overpriced marines in an era when their signature build was six man las plas and assault cannon spam. They were solid in third with rhino rush (my first ever models were space wolves, I've had a soft spot for them for the longest time. Until Santa grimnar came and ruined it with his flying bath tub) and their fifth ed codex was extremely competent, but for most of fourth, they weren't really a thing I'm afraid.
And with respect, space wolves, necrons and tau certainly were not capable of playing on the same level as iron warriors. You are flat out wrong on that one I'm afraid. Tau had a modest reputation at the start of fourth (buoyed by skimmers moving fast and the independent character rules mainly, and fish of fury was a nice trick) but it did not age well - by the end of fourth the power of the tau codex was a shadow of what it claimed at the start of the edition, and in fifth it faded entirely.
Tau 'fish of fury' was strong throughout almost the entire lifespan of 4th, and "ruined 40k" for just as many people as IW's "ruined 40k" for people in 3rd.
Meanwhile, once Vanilla's got their 4th ed codex with the Chapter Traits system, they easily came up to the same level as IW's, between min/maxed Las/Plas Tacticals, and Infiltrating Devastators.
.
Thst iron warrior list dominated for four years of fourth edition as well I'm afraid. Saying it ruined 30k for folks in third is not being entirely accurate. It pretty much was the de facto 'fourth edition' codex (but let's call it 3.5).
Tau fish of fury wasn't so much 'strong' as 'used frequently', because to be fair, tau didn't really have much beyond that, the single tau build of the time was three hammerheads, loads of kroot and one or two devilfish with squads inside, backed up by two shas'els who abused the independent character rules (can't be shot unless they were the closest unit). Like I explained earlier it was a horrendously expensive way of delivering a low accuracy (remember as well, pathfinders were never taken in fourth ed) rapid fire unit. And while it took two or three turns to get there, it could be blasted to bits. Tau weren't all that dakka heavy in the grande scheme of things, and pretty much everyone else could outmanoeuvre them. Fish of fury could be mitigated, and to be brutally honest, it's bark (and the online reputation of its bark)was far worse than its bite (which was surprisingly tame. Almost like a hug).
Space marine traits were OK, but I remember at the time that people pointed out how it was a lite-version of chaos legions. Nowhere near the same number of veteran skills or customisation at the end of the day- no Nike lords, basilisks or daemon princes. biggest 'abuse' of the traits system was taking 'we stand alone' as the downside. I never had the issues with marines that I had with iron warriors I'm afraid - they were a cut above.
Chaos has had one, lonely moment of glory since the beginning of 3rd ed. Only Dark Angels can claim to have been equally as woeful, though at least they've gotten a new book that let's them play with the big boys. (and being Space Marines, their model line is the among the best in the game!)
Overall, we've been among the worst armies in the game for nearly 20 years now... (1st half of 3rd, 4th, skipped over in 5th, 6th, now 7th/7.5ed)
And our model line is in an even worse state than freaking Sisters! Sure their models are expensive and harder to get a hold of. But at least GW produced pretty much every possible upgrade available for their various squads! Not to mention they look ace, despite their extreme age.
Chaos on the other hand is still missing about half our basic upgrades, with the majority of our line looking like it was designed as an afterthought by a bunch of rejected trainees.
Yeah, I'll agree with you here - chaos models are a bit lacklustre. Last codex had that Huron black heart abomination, mutilators, warp talons and the dinobots - I really wasn't that impressed with it. I didn't like the whole 'the warp makes their army spiky lolz' approach that the codex took. There's far better ways of doing ancient, bitter war ravaged and gritty veterans and I think more interesting ways of representing them on the tabletop too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're exaggerating on their model line being worse than Sisters.
I mean, it isn't great, but the Sister models are frickin METAL. There's hardly any ability to customize (metal is a pain to work with) and everything is more expensive.
Sisters still look a heck of a lot nicer than CSM's, have far fewer miscast issues going for them, and don't have to and loot 2-3 other army's model lines just to build their own basic upgrades.
Besides, I'd easily jump for joy to see every last one of our multitude of Finecrap models go back to metal! At least it's possible to get a proper cast come out of those molds!
If Sisters were all Fineco$t, I'd agree that their model line is the absolute worst. Lucky for them, they're still metal. (though it's still infuriating & absolutely criminal that GW refuses to re-launch them in plastic.)
Except, you know, any of our transport vehicles. at all. Or basically any of our Battle Conclaves. Or the vast majority of options for our Priests. Or any of the options for the Dialogous. Or any models at all for our Celestian unit, or the Command Squad. Or the Dominion squad. Or the Retributor squad. Or one of the two options for special weapons in our Seraphim squads. Or the fact I just listed half our codex as being unavailable models.
Edit: Actually, thinking about it, we only really have models for three and a half HQs, a couple of HQ squad upgrades, our basic troops unit, one of our two Elites units, one of our two Fast Attack units, and three of our four Heavy Support units.
Which means we don't have models for more of our army than we do have models for.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're exaggerating on their model line being worse than Sisters.
I mean, it isn't great, but the Sister models are frickin METAL. There's hardly any ability to customize (metal is a pain to work with) and everything is more expensive.
Sisters still look a heck of a lot nicer than CSM's, have far fewer miscast issues going for them, and don't have to and loot 2-3 other army's model lines just to build their own basic upgrades.
Besides, I'd easily jump for joy to see every last one of our multitude of Finecrap models go back to metal! At least it's possible to get a proper cast come out of those molds!
If Sisters were all Fineco$t, I'd agree that their model line is the absolute worst. Lucky for them, they're still metal. (though it's still infuriating & absolutely criminal that GW refuses to re-launch them in plastic.)
Except, you know, any of our transport vehicles. at all. Or basically any of our Battle Conclaves. Or the vast majority of options for our Priests. Or any of the options for the Dialogous. Or any models at all for our Celestian unit, or the Command Squad. Or the Dominion squad. Or the Retributor squad. Or one of the two options for special weapons in our Seraphim squads. Or the fact I just listed half our codex as being unavailable models.
Edit: Actually, thinking about it, we only really have models for three and a half HQs, a couple of HQ squad upgrades, our basic troops unit, one of our two Elites units, one of our two Fast Attack units, and three of our four Heavy Support units.
Which means we don't have models for more of our army than we do have models for.
Sadly it seems that GW is simply phasing out & squatting Sisters, rather than showing them any love... Still;
- The Rhino & Immolator kits existed. (Rhinos still exist, it's just the SoB upgrade frame that's been discontinued)
- Priests still exist. Check out the Missionary & Uriah Jacobus minis.
- Sister Dialogous is also still for sale on the Canadian webstore page.
- Celestrians are just fancier regular Battle Sisters, likewise the Command Squad. (and both the Hospitaller & Blessed Banner/Simularcum models are likewise available)
- Dominions are just a mix of regular Sisters + whatever special weapon floats your boat.
- Retributors are likewise just a mix of basic Sisters + whatever heavy weapon option.
Only thing really missing entirely (as in, never even produced and/or discontinued entirely) is the Inferno pistol upgrade for Seraphim and the now defunct Exorcist + Immolator/Rhino upgrade sprue.
Yes it's criminal how GW is treating Sisters players. But then, they're also not a regular in-store army...
Look what Chaos Marines, a long-standing staple of the entire game, ultimate 'big bad', greatest threat to the entire IoM, and one of the traditional 'Big 4' armies of the game are missing;
- only available plastic heavy weapon is a Heavy Bolter.
Only way to get the other options is to buy an ungodly number of Havoc kits. (at least Sisters can buy X amount of whatever specific weapon they want!)
- Not a single PA Combi-weapon component.
- Only available PA close combat upgrades are power swords, power fists and lightning claws. (only existing power maul is the DV model)
- Termies cannot build any kind of functional unit from their box, unless you buy it 3-4x over... Combi-plasma, power sword, power lance entirely missing. Only way to get lightning claws is to buy the Lord/Sorc kit in spades.
Kit itself only comes with 1x Combi-Melta/Flamer, 3x Combi-Bolters, 2x Power axes, Power maul, 2x Powerfists & Chainfist. (and heavy weapons obviously)
- Berserkers only come with enough Chainaxes for 50% of the unit.
- Chosen have been waiting only 15+ years for an actual kit! (so, same boat as Celestrians, though Chosen are still missing bitz for a solid chunk of their options)
Sisters are simply an absolute PitA to get a hold of... Chaos Marines actually have an easier time building the bulk of their army by buying Imperial & Ork kits instead of actual Chaos kits Both armies end up costing almost equal $$$-wise due to their extreme lack of serviceable kits. However, Sisters at least can buy the majority of their stuff from within the actual SoB model range. Chaos Marines end up cheaper by instead buying regular Marine kits & just converting.
Hence why imho, the Chaos model line is in worse shape - it doesn't even cover the bare basics of what it should!
DorianGray wrote: Arguably there are armies with worse codexes out there. Like Orks, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard and Tyranids
yet Spikey Space Marines takes up 90% of the whining on these forums with them demanding they deserve a full update with OP rules like back in 4th edition when everyone was running rofl-stomp Khorne Berzeker lists. Considering the OPness they enjoyed for so-long in 4th when every game was CSM players trying to get into assault to stomp face... is the amount of complaining really deserving?
The true reason probably is among the bad armies (Orks, Sisters, Tyranids, and CSM) CSM probably has the most fanboys because they are space Marines. Everyone wants their own army they collect to be good again. Sure Orks might suck way more than CSM but I don't play Orks so I could care less. There are or WERE a LOT of CSM players from back in 4th when they please don't use this term on Dakka like this. Reds8n everyone.
Thoughts?
just out of curiosity what word is not to be said on this forum? Was it a profanity or was it a term like Rape? If its the latter I have to say thats a bit high handed of you. The term isn't offensive, it merely describes a despicable action and is also used in slang form to describe how someone beats someone so completely that it wasn't even a fair fight. Now I highly agree with banning certain offensive words like profanities and racist names and such I disagree with blatant censorship, because down that road leads tyranny and despotism.
Anyway, back on topic.
Spike humies are bout as nerfed as us Boyz. GW needz ta fix dem.
DorianGray wrote: Arguably there are armies with worse codexes out there. Like Orks, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard and Tyranids
yet Spikey Space Marines takes up 90% of the whining on these forums with them demanding they deserve a full update with OP rules like back in 4th edition when everyone was running rofl-stomp Khorne Berzeker lists. Considering the OPness they enjoyed for so-long in 4th when every game was CSM players trying to get into assault to stomp face... is the amount of complaining really deserving?
The true reason probably is among the bad armies (Orks, Sisters, Tyranids, and CSM) CSM probably has the most fanboys because they are space Marines. Everyone wants their own army they collect to be good again. Sure Orks might suck way more than CSM but I don't play Orks so I could care less. There are or WERE a LOT of CSM players from back in 4th when they please don't use this term on Dakka like this. Reds8n everyone.
Thoughts?
just out of curiosity what word is not to be said on this forum? Was it a profanity or was it a term like Rape? If its the latter I have to say thats a bit high handed of you. The term isn't offensive, it merely describes a despicable action and is also used in slang form to describe how someone beats someone so completely that it wasn't even a fair fight. Now I highly agree with banning certain offensive words like profanities and racist names and such I disagree with blatant censorship, because down that road leads tyranny and despotism.
Anyway, back on topic.
Spike humies are bout as nerfed as us Boyz. GW needz ta fix dem.
Just a note, I would suggest not asking why a Mod did something. They will explain what was wrong to the perpetrator and we leave it at that. Also, Fascist Mods joke, strike that one off the Dakka Dakka Bingo card.
Spikey Humans are worse than Boyz. Both need fixing.
DorianGray wrote: Arguably there are armies with worse codexes out there. Like Orks, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard and Tyranids
yet Spikey Space Marines takes up 90% of the whining on these forums with them demanding they deserve a full update with OP rules like back in 4th edition when everyone was running rofl-stomp Khorne Berzeker lists. Considering the OPness they enjoyed for so-long in 4th when every game was CSM players trying to get into assault to stomp face... is the amount of complaining really deserving?
The true reason probably is among the bad armies (Orks, Sisters, Tyranids, and CSM) CSM probably has the most fanboys because they are space Marines. Everyone wants their own army they collect to be good again. Sure Orks might suck way more than CSM but I don't play Orks so I could care less. There are or WERE a LOT of CSM players from back in 4th when they please don't use this term on Dakka like this. Reds8n everyone.
Thoughts?
just out of curiosity what word is not to be said on this forum? Was it a profanity or was it a term like Rape? If its the latter I have to say thats a bit high handed of you. The term isn't offensive, it merely describes a despicable action and is also used in slang form to describe how someone beats someone so completely that it wasn't even a fair fight. Now I highly agree with banning certain offensive words like profanities and racist names and such I disagree with blatant censorship, because down that road leads tyranny and despotism. .
Let's get one thing straight. Just because you don't find the assumed term offensive, that doesn't mean it isn't offensive.
You can sling any amount of profanity at me and I'll likely not bat an eyelid, but the use of that term does, and always has, make me uncomfortable.
Also, let's be fair, the only people generally using it out of context are kids out of their trees on energy drinks after too many hours on COD, any sensible grown up knows not to use it as some sort of vernacular.
DorianGray wrote: Arguably there are armies with worse codexes out there. Like Orks, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard and Tyranids
yet Spikey Space Marines takes up 90% of the whining on these forums with them demanding they deserve a full update with OP rules like back in 4th edition when everyone was running rofl-stomp Khorne Berzeker lists. Considering the OPness they enjoyed for so-long in 4th when every game was CSM players trying to get into assault to stomp face... is the amount of complaining really deserving?
The true reason probably is among the bad armies (Orks, Sisters, Tyranids, and CSM) CSM probably has the most fanboys because they are space Marines. Everyone wants their own army they collect to be good again. Sure Orks might suck way more than CSM but I don't play Orks so I could care less. There are or WERE a LOT of CSM players from back in 4th when they please don't use this term on Dakka like this. Reds8n everyone.
Thoughts?
just out of curiosity what word is not to be said on this forum? Was it a profanity or was it a term like Rape? If its the latter I have to say thats a bit high handed of you. The term isn't offensive, it merely describes a despicable action and is also used in slang form to describe how someone beats someone so completely that it wasn't even a fair fight. Now I highly agree with banning certain offensive words like profanities and racist names and such I disagree with blatant censorship, because down that road leads tyranny and despotism. .
Let's get one thing straight. Just because you don't find the assumed term offensive, that doesn't mean it isn't offensive.
You can sling any amount of profanity at me and I'll likely not bat an eyelid, but the use of that term does, and always has, make me uncomfortable.
Also, let's be fair, the only people generally using it out of context are kids out of their trees on energy drinks after too many hours on COD, any sensible grown up knows not to use it as some sort of vernacular.
Again off topic but I'll throw this out here. If "rape" was in fact the word that was censored, 1: why doesn't the website already do that for the mods, I have noticed that it already does so to profanity. and 2: we play a table top game based on a fluff where trillions of souls are enslaved, starved, worked to death, thrown to there deaths, millions die every day to feed a hungry empire. Orks and other Xenos species run around eating people, DE do all sorts of unspeakable things to one another as well as humans and xenos, but we can't stand a four letter word? The mere fact someone gets offended by something gives the word power (sorry going all harry potter on you). I have found that simply by not being offended by every little thing that comes along I live a happier life. It also helps that I worked in a very culturally diverse work place with lots of high stress environments that led to some pretty good team building. Insults, racial slurs, sexist jokes and such were the coin of the day and we all took it as good humor and came together and worked as a well oiled machine to get our jobs done.
If someone is truly offended by the word then I won't attempt to sway them to my point, but I will point out that the real world is neither friendly nor caring and the sooner you grow a thick skin the better.
Back on topic, Spikey humies and da Orkz R even. Both need GW love and both know deep down they will never get any :(
Perhaps it's a good thing that some words still have that power?
Perhaps it's the responsibility of us all to moderate our own language rather than rely on some automatic big brother to clean up our mistakes for us? Especially in an environment where what we write may be read by children.
Now, spare me the tissue paper justifications, and the "on topic" elements of your posts aren't fooling anyone (although this whole thread has been worthless since post1)
DorianGray wrote: Arguably there are armies with worse codexes out there. Like Orks, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard and Tyranids
yet Spikey Space Marines takes up 90% of the whining on these forums with them demanding they deserve a full update with OP rules like back in 4th edition when everyone was running rofl-stomp Khorne Berzeker lists. Considering the OPness they enjoyed for so-long in 4th when every game was CSM players trying to get into assault to stomp face... is the amount of complaining really deserving?
The true reason probably is among the bad armies (Orks, Sisters, Tyranids, and CSM) CSM probably has the most fanboys because they are space Marines. Everyone wants their own army they collect to be good again. Sure Orks might suck way more than CSM but I don't play Orks so I could care less. There are or WERE a LOT of CSM players from back in 4th when they please don't use this term on Dakka like this. Reds8n everyone.
Thoughts?
just out of curiosity what word is not to be said on this forum? Was it a profanity or was it a term like Rape? If its the latter I have to say thats a bit high handed of you. The term isn't offensive, it merely describes a despicable action and is also used in slang form to describe how someone beats someone so completely that it wasn't even a fair fight. Now I highly agree with banning certain offensive words like profanities and racist names and such I disagree with blatant censorship, because down that road leads tyranny and despotism. .
Let's get one thing straight. Just because you don't find the assumed term offensive, that doesn't mean it isn't offensive.
You can sling any amount of profanity at me and I'll likely not bat an eyelid, but the use of that term does, and always has, make me uncomfortable.
Also, let's be fair, the only people generally using it out of context are kids out of their trees on energy drinks after too many hours on COD, any sensible grown up knows not to use it as some sort of vernacular.
Again off topic but I'll throw this out here. If "rape" was in fact the word that was censored, 1: why doesn't the website already do that for the mods, I have noticed that it already does so to profanity. and 2: we play a table top game based on a fluff where trillions of souls are enslaved, starved, worked to death, thrown to there deaths, millions die every day to feed a hungry empire. Orks and other Xenos species run around eating people, DE do all sorts of unspeakable things to one another as well as humans and xenos, but we can't stand a four letter word? The mere fact someone gets offended by something gives the word power (sorry going all harry potter on you). I have found that simply by not being offended by every little thing that comes along I live a happier life. It also helps that I worked in a very culturally diverse work place with lots of high stress environments that led to some pretty good team building. Insults, racial slurs, sexist jokes and such were the coin of the day and we all took it as good humor and came together and worked as a well oiled machine to get our jobs done.
If someone is truly offended by the word then I won't attempt to sway them to my point, but I will point out that the real world is neither friendly nor caring and the sooner you grow a thick skin the better.
Back on topic, Spikey humies and da Orkz R even. Both need GW love and both know deep down they will never get any :(
Can't remember the quote from monty python and the holy grail but 'We are the knights who say Niiii!!!'. Yes I agree with you man it's absurd. At the end of the day you can't please everybody so trying not to offend somebody seems to be a very ridiculous thing. At the end of the day it's more intent behind the words that matters. Are chaos marines actually existing and doing said unspeakable things? If the answer is no then chances are you're ok. Sheesh this is just as bad people being offended when people use the word gay to mean something else. Once again it's intent. I'm not trying to insult those people. You don't ask why gay people keep calling themselves happy all the time.
Anyway sorry for that but I just had to rant.
End of the day what the mods say goes. Doesn't mean I have to agree with it but I do have to follow it if I want to be on the forum.
It's not about being offended or politically correct or whatever BS you think it is. It's about certain words retaining their power.
But go ahead and misuse it. I'm sure you'll come to regret it when a survivor reveals themselves to you. You'll feel like gak for a very long time. Assuming you're capable of empathy.
Crimson Devil wrote: It's not about being offended or politically correct or whatever BS you think it is. It's about certain words retaining their power.
But go ahead and misuse it. I'm sure you'll come to regret it when a survivor reveals themselves to you. You'll feel like gak for a very long time. Assuming you're capable of empathy.
Nope, I lost empathy years ago, I think it might have fallen behind the couch or possibly the washer and dryer, you know how hard it is to find things in those places.
So does that mean I shouldn't use the word murder? because someone might know someone who was murdered, or not use the word shoot or kill because I might one day run into someone who was shot or knew someone close to them who was killed? the logic behind that is flawed. Again, giving power to a word is absurd, we as a people need to realize that, as said earlier, it is intent that matters and not the words. "I murdered that Sandwich" Intent? I ate a sandwich with gusto. "I am going to murder you" Intent? I am going to inflict great bodily harm on you resulting in death. Same word, two different intents, are you offended by either?
I was out to dinner with a group of friends and I was telling the story of a friend from High School. She had started dating a guy a year younger than her. His Parents didn't like it so they filed rape charges against her. Caused a lot of drama in their relationship especially because she got pregnant.
After I finished one of the girls in our group broke down into tears because she had been raped. My story triggered her memories. I felt like gak for it because I have empathy.
If I was to follow your example I guess I should have told her to just "walk it off".
