http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/breaking-chaos-marine-new-releases.html

Title says it all. Good for you chaos.

Looks like some really nice additions to update all the marine supplements as well. Very curious to see what all is in this book...

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/40k-new-space-marines-supplement-spotted.html

**EDIT**

My big questions, is if other Astartes armies will be "FAQd" to use some of these new psychic powers ... http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/40k-new-space-marine-psychic-powers-preview.html

Such as armies like GKs, Space wolves, etc...

Oh-I-wonder-what-god-will-get-something-new-oh-would-you-look-at-all-that-red.

Retail companies don't play elaborate April Fools jokes, lol.

What you saw with left-handed paintbruses and pop-up books are about as daring as any retail company is going to get.

It's cool to see the Cultists getting a real box. Though I don't know why it comes with one random monopose Chaos Marine from the DV set too.

 Purifier wrote:
Oh-I-wonder-what-god-will-get-something-new-oh-would-you-look-at-all-that-red.

theyre-still-generic-marines.-would-you-have-felt-better-if-they-were-purple-or-pink-maybe?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Retail companies don't play elaborate April Fools jokes, lol.

What you saw with left-handed paintbruses and pop-up books are about as daring as any retail company is going to get.

It's cool to see the Cultists getting a real box. Though I don't know why it comes with one random monopose Chaos Marine from the DV set too.

It's the Aspiring Champion, right?

He's a clampack. GW is getting burned super hard with plastic clampacks, so they're trying to jam them in box sets anywhere they can.

Those dies don't pay for themselves.

Yeah for sure. I am just really liking the direction that the company seems to be taking right now under all the new leadership.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Retail companies don't play elaborate April Fools jokes, lol.

What you saw with left-handed paintbruses and pop-up books are about as daring as any retail company is going to get.

It's cool to see the Cultists getting a real box. Though I don't know why it comes with one random monopose Chaos Marine from the DV set too.

A theory I've come across is that both of the box sets may end up related to the new formations promised in the supplements. Yes, it's just speculation, but it makes sense: A cultist horde led by a single champion? Yeah, that'd be some fluffy fun right there.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Oh-I-wonder-what-god-will-get-something-new-oh-would-you-look-at-all-that-red.

theyre-still-generic-marines.-would-you-have-felt-better-if-they-were-purple-or-pink-maybe?

Well, I would have liked to see some Nurgle marine models, since my friend plays a mono-Nurgle list and I like seeing new models on the table, but every single release in the chaos universe seems to be focused around Khorne.

But now that you mention it, yes I would like to see some Slaanesh-themed models that aren't just repaints of Khorne Spikey Marines.

Lets hope these updates are better then the Ghazz one

 Scourged wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Retail companies don't play elaborate April Fools jokes, lol.

What you saw with left-handed paintbruses and pop-up books are about as daring as any retail company is going to get.

It's cool to see the Cultists getting a real box. Though I don't know why it comes with one random monopose Chaos Marine from the DV set too.

A theory I've come across is that both of the box sets may end up related to the new formations promised in the supplements. Yes, it's just speculation, but it makes sense: A cultist horde led by a single champion? Yeah, that'd be some fluffy fun right there.

Oh, I don't have an problems with the fluff of it. It more just seems like it's including a model nobody needs, and certainly don't need multiples of.

Hopefully these are actually worthwhile. Not counting on it since supplements don't fix costs, which is one of the areas CSM struggle.

I feel like I'm missing something fundamental here?

All I'm seeing are a bunch of existing models clumped together into shared boxes - such as cultists with a champion, terminators with a terminator lord (essentially independent characters stuck in squads of existing units).


None of it is *new*


In addition, the Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion supplements already exist, so these releases invalidate existing copies so you're expected to update your codices, rulebooks and now supplements too?

And a whole new book for my space marines full of formations that costs the same as a new codex?


I'm not excited for any of this, it invalidates my last up-to-date army rulebook (Crimson slaughter), adds no new models (or updates for existing old lines) and adds more 'essential' formations guff to the Space Marines force that will no doubt be needed if I want to remain competitive (which I've given up with).


Maybe I've overlooked something?

 Wulfmar wrote:
(...)

None of it is *new*

Indeed.

In addition, the Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion supplements already exist, so these releases invalidate existing copies so you're expected to update your codices, rulebooks and now supplements too?

And a whole new book for my space marines full of formations that costs the same as a new codex?

I'm not excited for any of this, it invalidates my last up-to-date army rulebook (Crimson slaughter), adds no new models (or updates for existing old lines) and adds more 'essential' formations guff to the Space Marines force that will no doubt be needed if I want to remain competitive (which I've given up with).

Maybe I've overlooked something?

It's exactly as you've said and you have overlooked nothing.

In fact, supplements getting a 7th ed. update virtually guarantees the CSM main codex will not be touched for what remains of this edition... and probably a long time.

Some people are so so desperate for GW to throw them a bone that they will see a shiny and delicious bone even if it's only a piece of wood.

The ghazkull suppliment was updated. We got nothing good short of 2500 points+ play level. Don't get your hopes up. You are the antagonist npc army. Your job is to be a punching bag for Timmie's space marines. Space marines I might add that just got 24 new unique to them psychic powers.

 Orock wrote:
The ghazkull suppliment was updated. We got nothing good short of 2500 points+ play level. Don't get your hopes up. You are the antagonist npc army. Your job is to be a punching bag for Timmie's space marines. Space marines I might add that just got 24 new unique to them psychic powers.

Yeah, makes sense that SM get like over half a main rulebook's worth of psychic powers in addition to the ones they already have from said rulebook. Cuz SM are the galaxy's greatest psykers in case ya didn't know.

At this point I'd be happy if they just let poor CSM roll on the daemon psychic disciplines.

And didn't you hear they're also getting Heresy-era legion equipment too? Why? Cause feth Chaos that's why.

Just for OPs sake, I can confirm that these are not april fools.

These are real releases coming soon, around the time the SM anniversary comes out.

They are also releasing new SM packs including a Terminator Command squad, among other things. BOLS has reported only a fraction of the new releases coming soon.

Edit: All new releases are either SM or CSM in the couple of months.

No, it's more like feth eldar tau and necrons. Unfortunately CSM suffers as collateral damage.

Hmm, that SM leaks needs more blue in my opinion. UM barely have enough support as it is.

 Korinov wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
(...)

None of it is *new*

Indeed.

In addition, the Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion supplements already exist, so these releases invalidate existing copies so you're expected to update your codices, rulebooks and now supplements too?

And a whole new book for my space marines full of formations that costs the same as a new codex?

I'm not excited for any of this, it invalidates my last up-to-date army rulebook (Crimson slaughter), adds no new models (or updates for existing old lines) and adds more 'essential' formations guff to the Space Marines force that will no doubt be needed if I want to remain competitive (which I've given up with).

Maybe I've overlooked something?

It's exactly as you've said and you have overlooked nothing.

In fact, supplements getting a 7th ed. update virtually guarantees the CSM main codex will not be touched for what remains of this edition... and probably a long time.

Some people are so so desperate for GW to throw them a bone that they will see a shiny and delicious bone even if it's only a piece of wood.

True. But at least something is being tossed in CSM's direction. Especially since it's something that was on no one's radar. Any forecast at an updated CSM line wasn't until 2017 anyway. The new traits, artefacts, and formations will mostly be nothing more than distractions until then, sure, but it's something. I guess. The terminator box set is useless, agreed. The other one? Well, it'll be the first legitimate way to buy the full 20 cultists since their DV release. Not that it's much use to anyone, I'm sure, because eBay is a thing... but it's something.

Better a scrap of wood than an empty dog dish, yeah?

Instead of complaining about only getting the Supplement update CSM players should be happy they are at least getting something. Hell my IG are in the same boat, all we got was the Cadian update and that actually had a few good Formations to help us out.

Considering what they already offered, and also considering what has just happened with the Ghazkull one, the update of these supplements is next to nothing. The design philosophy behind the Black Legion one is beyond pathetic (we're suppossed to take 20-man CSM squads with no special weapons and just run towards the enemy? seriously?) and the Crimson Slaughter one is a direct insult to the traditional legions who right now have been almost 10 years without rules of their own.

Worse still, the update of the supplements means the main CSM codex (a terribly flawed, poorly internally balanced, brutally outdated codex) will be left untouched for the rest of the edition.

So I see no good news here. If someone pretends to convince me otherwise, be warned that you'll have to try very hard, because new random warlord traits, a bunch of formations I'm not interested in and a pair of new relics solve none of the important problems that have plagued CSM for years.

Unless the Terminator Formation can assault out of deep strike, or at the very least, come down automatically turn 2 with no scatter, then it might be worth considering.

Not sure what the cultists will get, I'm guessing either run and charge or a version of daemonic instability. Either way, I doubt anyone will care since the only use for cultists is as low priority objective campers.

 Orock wrote:
The ghazkull suppliment was updated. We got nothing good short of 2500 points+ play level. Don't get your hopes up. You are the antagonist npc army. Your job is to be a punching bag for Timmie's space marines. Space marines I might add that just got 24 new unique to them psychic powers.

Eh, Space Marines had been an upper-middle tier army at best for a while now. The only thing making them competitive at this point is formation fuggery. Their armor saves have been all but negated to irrelevancy, but they still pay for them in points, plus they're not really good at anything, just sort of an entire army of "Slightly Above Average".

Otherwise, the Necrons, Tau and Eldar have been dominant for quite a while now. Chaos Marines and Orks just exist in a bad place with the current ruleset.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Orock wrote:
The ghazkull suppliment was updated. We got nothing good short of 2500 points+ play level. Don't get your hopes up. You are the antagonist npc army. Your job is to be a punching bag for Timmie's space marines. Space marines I might add that just got 24 new unique to them psychic powers.

Eh, Space Marines had been an upper-middle tier army at best for a while now. The only thing making them competitive at this point is formation fuggery. Their armor saves have been all but negated to irrelevancy, but they still pay for them in points, plus they're not really good at anything, just sort of an entire army of "Slightly Above Average".

Otherwise, the Necrons, Tau and Eldar have been dominant for quite a while now. Chaos Marines and Orks just exist in a bad place with the current ruleset.

Tau have won no major tournaments since their update. The last good Tau list had the Tau Ghostkeel Wing but was primarily a space wolves Deathstar at Adepticon. The best "pure" Tau list placed 25th. That's it there were no other Tau lists that did good. But clearly we need to be nerfed more right. Look at results to other tournaments and you will find the Tau did even worse there.

Edit
I realize this doesn't help Chaos having a super weak codex, but I'm just saying Tau isn't an I win button. It looks that way when looking at it if your only experience running an army is one of the worst. Naturally a lot of other armies are going to look super powerful but does that make them super powered? No not really.

 Gamgee wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Orock wrote:
The ghazkull suppliment was updated. We got nothing good short of 2500 points+ play level. Don't get your hopes up. You are the antagonist npc army. Your job is to be a punching bag for Timmie's space marines. Space marines I might add that just got 24 new unique to them psychic powers.

Eh, Space Marines had been an upper-middle tier army at best for a while now. The only thing making them competitive at this point is formation fuggery. Their armor saves have been all but negated to irrelevancy, but they still pay for them in points, plus they're not really good at anything, just sort of an entire army of "Slightly Above Average".

Otherwise, the Necrons, Tau and Eldar have been dominant for quite a while now. Chaos Marines and Orks just exist in a bad place with the current ruleset.

Tau have won no major tournaments since their update. The last good Tau list had the Tau Ghostkeel Wing but was primarily a space wolves Deathstar at Adepticon. The best "pure" Tau list placed 25th. That's it there were no other Tau lists that did good. But clearly we need to be nerfed more right. Look at results to other tournaments and you will find the Tau did even worse there.

Tau got 12th at LVO and 11th at Adapticon. That's really good

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Orock wrote:
The ghazkull suppliment was updated. We got nothing good short of 2500 points+ play level. Don't get your hopes up. You are the antagonist npc army. Your job is to be a punching bag for Timmie's space marines. Space marines I might add that just got 24 new unique to them psychic powers.

Eh, Space Marines had been an upper-middle tier army at best for a while now. The only thing making them competitive at this point is formation fuggery. Their armor saves have been all but negated to irrelevancy, but they still pay for them in points, plus they're not really good at anything, just sort of an entire army of "Slightly Above Average".

Otherwise, the Necrons, Tau and Eldar have been dominant for quite a while now. Chaos Marines and Orks just exist in a bad place with the current ruleset.

Tau have won no major tournaments since their update. The last good Tau list had the Tau Ghostkeel Wing but was primarily a space wolves Deathstar at Adepticon. The best "pure" Tau list placed 25th. That's it there were no other Tau lists that did good. But clearly we need to be nerfed more right. Look at results to other tournaments and you will find the Tau did even worse there.

Tau got 12th at LVO and 11th at Adapticon. That's really good

The 11th place list was in error. He took a primary space wolves deathstar and an allies Ghostkeel. So that means the best Tau player was 25th barely. They did get 12th at LVO and likely to place even lower as power creep sets in for other updated factions. Tau need to be unnerfed in the ITC. The player himself clarified this in tournament discussions on this very site if you want to see his post.

But Adepticon doesn't use the ITC, so why would an unrelated tourney show the need to chamge rules that are different between the two? Also, Tau don't like infinite Wraithknights and the megasuperfriendsdeathstars that Adepticon allows and, to my knowledge (detachment limit stopping 5 sources being brought for the wombo combo like the #1 list had) the ITC stops. The ghostkell cpuld do with an unerf I grant you, but overall most of the ITC chamges to tau are for the better (see the tankshock ruling and Tau being the only non-Kight army to be able to take multiple Superheavies.)

More on topic, I really hope free marks are a thing. T5 troops are nothing to scoff at, and if CSM players have any good karma saved up we will hopefully see some kind of "Chaos-Undevided" rule gor the black crusade that gives them all the marks but still for free.

Just edited the title to make it clear this is a general discussion thread about what this release could mean, instead of a news and rumours thread. That seems to be what is happening, and it belongs here then

The figures look cool, but don't need more cultists or terminators. Would be nice to get a NEW Chaos Space Marine Codex, not a rehash BL/CS.

 Wulfmar wrote:
I feel like I'm missing something fundamental here?

All I'm seeing are a bunch of existing models clumped together into shared boxes - such as cultists with a champion, terminators with a terminator lord (essentially independent characters stuck in squads of existing units).


None of it is *new*

New formations in both supplements which have not existed before, therefore being new.

Personally can't see anything to be unhappy about. Can't also see why one would be happier with just having the old supplements and the old Codex, aka nothing new, than having the new supplements and formations. But each to his own I guess.

Two points:

1. The fact that they are getting new supplements and new model boxes shows that GW hasn't forgotten about Chaos Space Marines. They aren't going the way of the squats.

2. It does cast serious doubt on whether CSM is getting any serious kind of core codex revision any time soon.

I'm afraid that the relatively recent Khorne Demonkin codex (not that recent, but relatively recent nonetheless), with virtually no changes to the chaos space marine units contained therein, bodes poorly for this also.

In Eye of Terror you could put an aspiring champion (like the guy who would normally lead squads) as an HQ choice attached to squads of mutants/cultists/whatever. Maybe a return to that?

I don't see any heavy weapons in that cultists box wonder if this is just 4 of the 5 man box with the AC tossed in

 Drasius wrote:
Not sure what the cultists will get, I'm guessing either run and charge or a version of daemonic instability. Either way, I doubt anyone will care since the only use for cultists is as low priority objective campers.

Except they'll almost certainly lose obsec across the board. Because only SM are allowed to secure objectives.

 Runic wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
I feel like I'm missing something fundamental here?

All I'm seeing are a bunch of existing models clumped together into shared boxes - such as cultists with a champion, terminators with a terminator lord (essentially independent characters stuck in squads of existing units).


None of it is *new*

New formations in both supplements which have not existed before, therefore being new.

Personally can't see anything to be unhappy about. Can't also see why one would be happier with just having the old supplements and the old Codex, aka nothing new, than having the new supplements and formations. But each to his own I guess.

The last few formations excreted by GW for Chaos were generally useless or plain terrible. The thing to be unhappy about is no new chaos codex to resolve the issues and a big additional £££ tax to get a tweaked supplement that doesn't add anything of value.

I'm going to bet on this supplement simply including the existing Helcult formations and so on and maybe one actual new formation of no actual use

Unless the supplements are along the lines of. "Take this and get lots of free things!" It isn't going to fix the underlying cause of CSM being too damn expensive.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Yeah for sure. I am just really liking the direction that the company seems to be taking right now under all the new leadership.

You mean Age of Sigmar?

it'll be formations most likely. end of tyhe day I hope chaos gets a new codex. it's really the only army right now that needs one.

Traditio wrote:
The fact that they are getting new supplements and new model boxes shows that GW hasn't forgotten about Chaos Space Marines. They aren't going the way of the squats.

The battle between Marines and Chaos, with CSM in particular, are the focal point of the entire lore of 40k. CSM getting squatted has never been on the table. Getting moved back into a joint Chaos book though? Maybe. I personally wouldn't mind seeing that at all.
I'd much rather see Chaos divided by Gods, rather than the division of demons and marines. God codexes would be a nice counter point to Marines special Chapter codexes.

It's pretty insane how they'll happily make whole boxes of marines with special iconography like Blood Angels, but there is no box that lets you make specifically Slaaneshi marines. The only thing close to it is one of the heads in the CSM box that looks vaguely Slaanesh, and the noise marine upgrade pack.

It probably just has to do with the popularity of SM being leagues above that of CSM, but they're not exactly helping it by then favouring them in every aspect. Self perpetuating assumption where GW has always believed SM are more popular so they sell more, so they release more things for SM, which makes them more popular...

 Purifier wrote:
The battle between Marines and Chaos, with CSM in particular, are the focal point of the entire lore of 40k. CSM getting squatted has never been on the table. Getting moved back into a joint Chaos book though? Maybe. I personally wouldn't mind seeing that at all.
I'd much rather see Chaos divided by Gods, rather than the division of demons and marines. God codexes would be a nice counter point to Marines special Chapter codexes.

It's pretty insane how they'll happily make whole boxes of marines with special iconography like Blood Angels, but there is no box that lets you make specifically Slaaneshi marines. The only thing close to it is one of the heads in the CSM box that looks vaguely Slaanesh, and the noise marine upgrade pack.

It probably just has to do with the popularity of SM being leagues above that of CSM, but they're not exactly helping it by then favouring them in every aspect. Self perpetuating assumption where GW has always believed SM are more popular so they sell more, so they release more things for SM, which makes them more popular...

Quoted for truth. I'm just surprised that Chaos is now in last place, and how they're starting to give armies new updates before going back to CSM. I feel like CSM are in this weird limbo where they know they can't get rid of them, and they can't take them off the shelves, but they don't want to support them anymore. I know you could argue otherwise given these supplement updates and unit bundles, but honestly these are some of the easiest, have-bob-do-it-over-the-weekend sort of things that they could do. You could always do less, though! Games Workshop could have let it go cold turkey, but they occasionally give this starving codex some gruel and water, and for that, I guess they deserve credit.

motyak wrote:Just edited the title to make it clear this is a general discussion thread about what this release could mean, instead of a news and rumours thread. That seems to be what is happening, and it belongs here then

Thanks

Quarterdime wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Yeah for sure. I am just really liking the direction that the company seems to be taking right now under all the new leadership.

You mean Age of Sigmar?

I am looking forward to the future to see what they fix/change in regards to AoS. The models are amazing, the core rules are not bad.. they just need a structure (points or something). My local FLGS uses a fan made points system and they seem to have a blast with the game so far. But that aside, I was mainly talking about 40k. I think the campaign releases and updating multiple forces at once is a great step forward. They seem to be lowering some price points to allow better access into the hobby, and have started to reach back out to the community. All good signs in my book of a company who finally realized they took a wrong direction and are trying to turn things around.

Gave a look to the formations. Most of them are pretty meh, following the spirit of the daemon ones from the Wulfen book. A few request you to take several squads of Possessed... nuff said.

I don't play formations anyway so couldn't care less, but in any case the comparison with the stuff the loyalist scum is getting with their angels of death supplement is insulting.

 Korinov wrote:
Gave a look to the formations. Most of them are pretty meh, following the spirit of the daemon ones from the Wulfen book. A few request you to take several squads of Possessed... nuff said.

I don't play formations anyway so couldn't care less, but in any case the comparison with the stuff the loyalist scum is getting with their angels of death supplement is insulting.

Where did you see the formations?

Here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321140-new-black-legion-formations/

As I figured, everyone who jumped the negative train about nothing new was simply put, wrong.

I guess the Crimson Slaughter ones are still to come.

Can't wait to cast Shroud of Deceit on some kitted out Centurion Devastators. Or...

"Your Stormsurge has deployed its pistons down and is now shooting twice you say?" *fixes eightfold monocle*

 Runic wrote:
Here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321140-new-black-legion-formations/

As I figured, everyone who jumped the negative train about nothing new was simply put, wrong.

Wouldn't say that. It's still the same overcosted units, and many of the formations are forcing you to tax pretty heavily. Not to mention it's all Khorne.

The cabal was good, as it just straight up gives value to sorcerors, and the Hounds of Abaddon is pretty badass if you happen to already be running Khorne units.

I'm still disappointed as all hells that everything but Khorne gets nothing. Throw Nurgle a bone.

Traditio wrote:
Two points:

1. The fact that they are getting new supplements and new model boxes shows that GW hasn't forgotten about Chaos Space Marines. They aren't going the way of the squats.

2. It does cast serious doubt on whether CSM is getting any serious kind of core codex revision any time soon.

I'm afraid that the relatively recent Khorne Demonkin codex (not that recent, but relatively recent nonetheless), with virtually no changes to the chaos space marine units contained therein, bodes poorly for this also.

Necrons got new formations and stuff in Exterminatus like a month before their new codex. Also these seem to be mostly formations and relics (just like exterminatus), so a new codex that is compatible might not be out of the question.

 Purifier wrote:

Wouldn't say that..

TlR Summary:

Black Legion Gets:

-Black Legion Warband with lots of options of basic units to take. Unclear if this is a decurion, but the benefits are if you kill something you re-roll to hit and wound rolls of 1 for the rest of the phase with the whole formation, and you get double boon rolls (take one or both)

-1 formation with either a lord or a sorc permanently joining a unit of Terminators or Chosen, they get Fearless and a free boon. There must be a typo in this one somewhere, because it lists 1-4 sorcs/lords but I don't see how you can ever take more than 1 RAW

-Hounds of Khorne formation with lots of Khorney goodness, required mark of Khorne on everyone but it is free, they get an ork waagh rule, and if they roll above 7 on the charge they're +1S for the turn.

-2 of any combination of mauler/forgefiend and a warpsmith, they get to declare a character who they get preferred enemy against, and also one of them can choose to use the BS or WS of the warpsmith if within 12. Yay BS5 forgefiend!

-2-5 units of possessed, one daemon prince. Possessed get I5 and Rending, but if not within 18" of the prince need to take a LD test and if they fail, only move D6 in movement phase.

-Chaos sorcerous conclave, gains a special WC3 power (you get +1 free psychic die for each extra sorc within 12" to cast this power) that makes a single non-vehicle enemy unit shoot as if it belonged to you in the shooting phase.

 Runic wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Wouldn't say that..

Saying nothing is new (the definition of nothing being, well, nothing) about something that factually includes new content is simply false. But I won't bother continuing about this further. CSM got some new stuff and there's more to come, the end.

You mean Wulfmar's comment... he was talking about the models, you lemon. No new models.

Time for CSM to steal a Stormsurge

The basic Black Legion formation is likely just the Core Formation of a bigger Decurion detachment, meaning there are probably more benefits coming.

For anyone who wants to see images rather than read a summary, here you go:
Black Legion Warband


Cabal


Chosen


Daemon Engine Pack


Hounds of Abaddon


Tormented

I looked through the formations, and none are that good. The triple Sorcerer one can be fun, so can Hounds of Huron but the others I thought were outright bad. None of it addressed the fundamental problems of the codex. Remember, there's not a single unit in either of the codices, just optional Artefacts, some minor rules, and some formations.

Having some repackaged old models in addition to the NZ GW putting CSMs under "New Releases" because of their new 32mm bases is pretty annoying.

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.

:(

 ChazSexington wrote:

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.
:(

Loyalists are getting formations and relics from the previously existing supplements and in the case of formations, the digital only Skyhammer formation that everybody whines about. They're getting the Raven Guard+White Scar stuff from Kauyon, the Iron Hands stuff from Clan Raaukan, and the Imperial Fists stuff from Sentinels of Terra.

The only definitively new stuff is a Detachment for the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists and Salamanders being added in general with a Detachment of their own.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.
:(

Loyalists are getting formations and relics from the previously existing supplements and in the case of formations, the digital only Skyhammer formation that everybody whines about. They're getting the Raven Guard+White Scar stuff from Kauyon, the Iron Hands stuff from Clan Raaukan, and the Imperial Fists stuff from Sentinels of Terra.

The only definitively new stuff is a Detachment for the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists and Salamanders being added in general with a Detachment of their own.

You forgot the spells. They look filthy.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.
:(

Loyalists are getting formations and relics from the previously existing supplements and in the case of formations, the digital only Skyhammer formation that everybody whines about. They're getting the Raven Guard+White Scar stuff from Kauyon, the Iron Hands stuff from Clan Raaukan, and the Imperial Fists stuff from Sentinels of Terra.

The only definitively new stuff is a Detachment for the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists and Salamanders being added in general with a Detachment of their own.

You forgot the spells. They look filthy.

Yeah, but the spells are also not exclusive to the Angels of Death book. They're literally just adding four new Disciplines exclusive to Space Marines. Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves all get access to these Disciplines as well.

On paper the spells look great, but all they're doing is reinforcing the normal death stars. They'll do nothing to change up play.

Yeah, consider me unimpressed. The possessed one doesn't solve the problems with possessed, the hounds of Abbadon is okay, free mark of khorne is nice, but it just makes khorne berserkers even worse value for money, the +1 S is okay too as is the old fleet rule.

The daemon engine pack isn't that great, you can't use Maulerfiends because the Warpsmith has no way of keeping up, so it's forge fiends only. If the preferred enemy was a unit or monster out creature, it would be better.

The chosen of Abbadon sucks. You basically get a free boon of mutation.

The black legion war and just makes you take things you wouldn't take anyway, and for no major benefit.

The best one is the Cabal, but that is a load of points for a bunch of guys who die to missile launchers. Unless you want to upgrade them, in which case just bring a super heavy you'll get more firepower.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.
:(

Loyalists are getting formations and relics from the previously existing supplements and in the case of formations, the digital only Skyhammer formation that everybody whines about. They're getting the Raven Guard+White Scar stuff from Kauyon, the Iron Hands stuff from Clan Raaukan, and the Imperial Fists stuff from Sentinels of Terra.

The only definitively new stuff is a Detachment for the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists and Salamanders being added in general with a Detachment of their own.

Also, keep in mind that the Loyalist Detachments largely make use of the regular Codex auxiliary formations (WS only got two new auxiliaries in Kauyon), so it isn't like they are going to be swimming in new formations with this book. Probably two new formations for each Chapter along with a specialized Battle-Demi Company and Detachment.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.
:(

Loyalists are getting formations and relics from the previously existing supplements and in the case of formations, the digital only Skyhammer formation that everybody whines about. They're getting the Raven Guard+White Scar stuff from Kauyon, the Iron Hands stuff from Clan Raaukan, and the Imperial Fists stuff from Sentinels of Terra.

The only definitively new stuff is a Detachment for the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists and Salamanders being added in general with a Detachment of their own.

You forgot the spells. They look filthy.

The reroll armor thing might let something live vs Eldar or Tau high ROF weapons. Is that not allowed?

Spoke too soon. The Black Legion formations are at least interesting. The points from the core codex are still all sorts of insanity, so there's that. At least it isn't what they did to the poor, poor Orks and Cadians.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
Ugh...without a substantial points reduction of possessed, the Crimson Slaughter update will be pointless (same with Chosen and the Black Legion). Blah. After what happened to the Orks and the Ghaz supplement (and the Cadians before that), I ceased caring. Of course, then you look at the absolute absurdity of the Wulfen... Puts a bad taste in my mouth to say the least.

Considering you are still on the verge of a new Codex early next year that will still be able to make use of this information (the same way that the Mephrit Dynasty stuff is still usable for Next one despite proceeding their new codex), all is not lost.

I don't think that they will get a point reduction this would make the supplement incompatible with any new codex. But they might just get enough special rules to make them worth it.

Yeah those wulfen made me realise again how bad of a game 40k really is at the moment.

I will say it would be fun to use shroud of deceit on a unit of Grav centurions or a Vaul's D-weapon battery.

I hold 0 hopes for my CSM ever becoming "Meta" again nor ever being fun to play unless the mindset is "Watch them die in droves" So ill calmly wait for some bloke on Dakka to buy it, review it and then tell us what he thinks.

Aside from that, here's hoping!....?

Gah, what are they doooiiiiing?

Don't they read anything on the internet?

I would start CSM like that if they had decent models and a codex on par with the last few.

This... this is just so much headdesk fail, I don't have the words.

Hmm, I can't be bothered to dig out my rulebook right now but, would the khorne formation allow those units to charge from reserve? Since it says that they may charge in the turn you use that rule, which happens to include after running.

Haha or from a transport.. But no. It overrides a specific restriction, it wouldn't override other restrictions.

I wouldn't complain too soon, I'm quite sure there will be formations for the other gods' subgroups in the BL. The hounds of Abaddon are just the Khorne-subgroup that was already presented in the original BL-book. I'd be surprised if there weren't rules for the Bringes of despair (Nurgle) for example.

I do like that Psychic Power, particularly if GW decides that CSM can't have the cute little Grav-Cannons that the IoM has.

Do the Cabal get the bonus dice on all their spells? The entry seems incomplete and doesn't seem to say it only functions with the new spell.

 Eldarain wrote:
Do the Cabal get the bonus dice on all their spells? The entry seems incomplete and doesn't seem to say it only functions with the new spell.

It specifically states you get extra dice for that psychic test. Pretty cut and dry.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I wouldn't complain too soon, I'm quite sure there will be formations for the other gods' subgroups in the BL. The hounds of Abaddon are just the Khorne-subgroup that was already presented in the original BL-book. I'd be surprised if there weren't rules for the Bringes of despair (Nurgle) for example.

Prepare to be surprised. Chatter on B&C says that all we've seen is all there is. iPad versions have updated already, and contain only the formations leaked, plus one more for Abaddon and a Terminator retinue. Warlord traits and artefacts unchanged. No overarching "decurion" rules.

Quick thought - would you be able to use up an opponent's one use only weapons through using the cabal's power?

Seems like a hilarious troll move if you can!

It shoots as if it was your unit so yes, you can.

 Scourged wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I wouldn't complain too soon, I'm quite sure there will be formations for the other gods' subgroups in the BL. The hounds of Abaddon are just the Khorne-subgroup that was already presented in the original BL-book. I'd be surprised if there weren't rules for the Bringes of despair (Nurgle) for example.

Prepare to be surprised. Chatter on B&C says that all we've seen is all there is. iPad versions have updated already, and contain only the formations leaked, plus one more for Abaddon and a Terminator retinue. Warlord traits and artefacts unchanged. No overarching "decurion" rules.

The same thing happened with the Ork Codex. We didn't see the Decurion until later.

Wow.... Just as bad as expected. No, Decurion. The only represented god is Khorne. I was expecting at least something for Nurgle.

Chossen of Abbadon is especially sad. They get fear as long as the Chaos Lord is alive? They already have that anyway. Sure if your take a Sorcerer in is has a use be the Sorcerer already LD10 so still useless. Also a terminator formation with no scatter mitigation and no bonus to make them better at their job, or killing stuff. I can't believe I'm saying this but damn it the Loyalist at least got the Fear USR as well. Are Chaos terminators not scary, now?

 Sersi wrote:
Wow.... Just as bad as expected. No, Decurion. The only represented god is Khorne. I was expecting at least something for Nurgle.

Oh, you have the book? Because not everything has been revealed as to what is in it. We haven't seen the Detachment yet (White Dwarf says there is one).

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Wow.... Just as bad as expected. No, Decurion. The only represented god is Khorne. I was expecting at least something for Nurgle.

Oh, you have the book? Because not everything has been revealed as to what is in it. We haven't seen the Detachment yet (White Dwarf says there is one).

It does? I thought that it was already somehow out there in the black library update and all that was missing was a formation with abaddon? No new traits either.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Wow.... Just as bad as expected. No, Decurion. The only represented god is Khorne. I was expecting at least something for Nurgle.

Oh, you have the book? Because not everything has been revealed as to what is in it. We haven't seen the Detachment yet (White Dwarf says there is one).

Where was that in white dwarf? It specifically says there will be Chaos detachments? Its not in the Black Legion digital update. Feel free to keep the faith. I've seen nothing yet that turns CSM's around, you can of course build a fluffy and inefficient lists with these formations. If we do get a detachment it would have be amazing to turn this around.

 Sersi wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Wow.... Just as bad as expected. No, Decurion. The only represented god is Khorne. I was expecting at least something for Nurgle.

Oh, you have the book? Because not everything has been revealed as to what is in it. We haven't seen the Detachment yet (White Dwarf says there is one).

Where was that in white dwarf? It specifically says there will be Chaos detachments? Its not in the Black Legion digital update. Feel free to keep the faith. I've seen nothing yet that turns CSM's around, you can of course build a fluffy and inefficient lists with these formations. If we do get a detachment it would have be amazing to turn this around.

I apologize. I misread the WD (or got wires crossed thinking of the C:SM stuff which does have detachments). No mention of detachments. Because GW thinks CSM are Khorne, and that is it. All the possible joy I had for this product is gone.

How will it affect the meta?

It won't.

Throwing in some formations into supplements does NOT address the fundamental problems with the core CSM codex.

The units are still horrendously overpointed, suffer from a terrible internal balance and are still victims of some terrible army wide special rules that pretty much screw Chaos over on a regular basis - mandatory challenges just to roll on a random table should you do something screws us over something fierce. Like, no, I don't want my Champion to be focused on trying to kill the one git with a 2+ invuln save...I'd rather have him focus on murdering the rest of the unit.

A lot of these 'new' formations are literally Apocalypse and Apocalypse Reload reprints. They're new in the fact that they weren't 40k legal before but are now.

However, that fixes nothing. Unless these formations miraculously rectify the problems of the core codex by throwing us an extra 100 points to spend per 500 they will literally do nothing for us.

And if they do?

Well, that makes Chaos even worse. That literally puts us in the realm of being the only core Codex that needs to buy another 2-3 books plus an Imperial Armour book to even function.

Not looking forward to rerollable 3++ saves on t5 models if its more than chaos/generic powers....

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Not looking forward to rerollable 3++ saves on t5 models if its more than chaos/generic powers....

Yeah pretty much every marine star just got better with these psychic updates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did you guys see the chaos relics?

CLICK ME FOR RELICS

I think they are ok.. but they are all way to expensive.. especially the first one.. maybe if it was apoc blast.. or barrage... or 3 auto pens... idk.

Those are the exact same relics as before. Nothing changed with them, except now you can take them in addition to the ones ins the codex rather than instead of them.

Not that you would want to given that they're all over costed anyway.

 Sersi wrote:
Those are the exact same relics as before. Nothing changed with them, except now you can take them in addition to the ones ins the codex rather than instead of them.

Not that you would want to given that they're all over costed anyway.

Boo!

None of these formations mean any thing.

Meh I say.... The formations look pretty different though not really that in line with what we thought Black Legion were all about....

But I for one am just getting so bored of playing the same couple of formations every sodding game! Mainly cause the others are unusable or too expensive to make worthwhile taking.

Been loving the deamonkin since they came out and was nice to have something with a bit of flavour to it. But damn! I miss the old days where you could safely make an army list up with your codex and not be at a disadvantage. Formations just seem so.... restrictive.

Seeing them being cut and pasted into existing supplements just makes me even more disappointed.

F*cking Crimson Dbags!

Anyway, a couple of crappy formations isn't going to fix our few codex's.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Not looking forward to rerollable 3++ saves on t5 models if its more than chaos/generic powers....

Yeah pretty much every marine star just got better with these psychic updates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did you guys see the chaos relics?

CLICK ME FOR RELICS

I think they are ok.. but they are all way to expensive.. especially the first one.. maybe if it was apoc blast.. or barrage... or 3 auto pens... idk.

I have a hard enough time as is dealing with my friends 6+~ thunderwolf with TH/SS let alone rerollable, but its expected, GW is making everything op.

The Daemon Engine pack made me happy.

Now I can have two Forgefiends following my Warpsmith's Retinue.

dang, non-vehicles, too bad..... would be fun to hijack a titan or something of the like. guess we'll have to settle for tau mechs or demon-prince, or bio-titan

 phantombap wrote:
dang, non-vehicles, too bad..... would be fun to hijack a titan or something of the like. guess we'll have to settle for tau mechs or demon-prince, or bio-titan

Or a WK.. or a grav centurian team.. so many awesome choices

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Not looking forward to rerollable 3++ saves on t5 models if its more than chaos/generic powers....

Yeah pretty much every marine star just got better with these psychic updates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did you guys see the chaos relics?

CLICK ME FOR RELICS

I think they are ok.. but they are all way to expensive.. especially the first one.. maybe if it was apoc blast.. or barrage... or 3 auto pens... idk.

I would've thought it was fake if it wasn't for the pages and layout being the same, because they're identical.

This may be the laziest "update" I've ever.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 phantombap wrote:
dang, non-vehicles, too bad..... would be fun to hijack a titan or something of the like. guess we'll have to settle for tau mechs or demon-prince, or bio-titan

Or a WK.. or a grav centurian team.. so many awesome choices

Those are like the only things worth it though

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 phantombap wrote:
dang, non-vehicles, too bad..... would be fun to hijack a titan or something of the like. guess we'll have to settle for tau mechs or demon-prince, or bio-titan

Or a WK.. or a grav centurian team.. so many awesome choices

Those are like the only things worth it though

Or you could play against a force with no useful units and have wasted a load of points.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 phantombap wrote:
dang, non-vehicles, too bad..... would be fun to hijack a titan or something of the like. guess we'll have to settle for tau mechs or demon-prince, or bio-titan

Or a WK.. or a grav centurian team.. so many awesome choices

Those are like the only things worth it though

Or you could play against a force with no useful units and have wasted a load of points.

So don't play against CSM.

It's in no way just a little distressing that they did not touch the actual codex, the one thing actually in need of an update.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Not looking forward to rerollable 3++ saves on t5 models if its more than chaos/generic powers....

Yeah pretty much every marine star just got better with these psychic updates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did you guys see the chaos relics?

CLICK ME FOR RELICS

I think they are ok.. but they are all way to expensive.. especially the first one.. maybe if it was apoc blast.. or barrage... or 3 auto pens... idk.

I have a hard enough time as is dealing with my friends 6+~ thunderwolf with TH/SS let alone rerollable, but its expected, GW is making everything except Chaos, Orks &Tyranids op.

Fixed that for you!

For me its actually changed quite a bit. Thanks to having access to both the BL and csm relics i can now make a mastery level 2 tzeench chaos lord who generates a new power every turn and if im reading it correctly would keep all previously generated powers.

Where does it say you can talk both sets of Relics?

Look under the army special rules in the updated black legion book

No you can't, because a lord wih the scroll of magnus is not a psyker yet. He becomes a psyker the first time you roll and get a power. By that time it's too late to buy the yuranthos relic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suppose it would work with the crimson slaughter bonus though, assuming they get to do the same thing. Though he would be masterly lvl 1 only.

omg that is not what I wanted. A bandaid in the form of 2 supplements?

CSM needs A entirely new Codex Re Write! , Not these 2 suplements.

I was excited...and then I read the formations. They are pretty bad overall.

I thought about how this would change my army structure, and unfortunately I don't think I will be trying out any of these formations.

the main one I was interested in was the Black Legion Warband one. It utilizes most of the units I use already. But then I realized I can't take a Daemon Prince, Helldrake, Maulerfiends or Oblitorators without taking a CAD. No amount of re-roll is going to replace those units in my CAD. Those units are my heavy lifters, everything else is just filler.

I could try to take the Daemon Engine one, but I don't have room for a Warpsmith.

The Cabal is useful at least, I would certainly consider that one.

They didn't even bother to re-cost the artifacts or change the pathetic warlord traits.

The Chosen of Abaddon formations is straight up garbage. I don't understand. Why can't it just be Terminators come in on turn 1 or 2 automatically(your choice), or Terminators can assault out of deep strike. That would be useful. I guess we can't have nice things though.

The book is pretty terrible, formations are garbage. But I'm probably going to pick it up because I play Black Legion (unfortunately)

Yea, same. Though for me, the fact that I can have a physical book is also a factor. Even if its not hardback, which I prefer...a lot.

I have both hardcover version of our supplements, mostly because of the background material they offered.

I don't care if these versions are cheaper... the rules outside of the Sorcerers formation are garbage, and I'm not re-buying just for the exact same background + worse binding and softcover.

I didn't get the old one because it just wasn't worth it to me. This isn't a whole lot better but least it has enough content to be called a supplement this time around.

You will entertained to know, 626, that the Crimson Slaughter formations are better than the Black Legion ones.

So not only are their overall rules and relics better, but their formations are better as well! I'll post on LO later about that.

Cant get worse right? i mean the could nerf the chicken.

They really aren't. They all have possessed. no.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
They really aren't. They all have possessed. no.

Crimson Slaughter Possessed are actually rock solid, especially by our lowly standards... Obsec, a vastly superior mutations table, and the ability to spam MSU Fearless units? Yes please.

The BL Possessed formation is laughable actually. Hooray, they get Rending + mutation roll!! And you're saddled with taking the game's outright worst MC, and are forced to keep all your Possessed anchored within range of him, otherwise they stand a decent chance of not really moving for a turn... on a purely close combat only unit!

That's nearing the Ork fighter jet formation levels of steaming turd.

You guys realize that you are basically the Washington Generals right?

Median Trace wrote:
You guys realize that you are basically the Washington Generals right?

Nah, we're really hoping that we're basically the Toronto Maple Leafs!

Experiment 626 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
They really aren't. They all have possessed. no.

Crimson Slaughter Possessed are actually rock solid, especially by our lowly standards... Obsec, a vastly superior mutations table, and the ability to spam MSU Fearless units? Yes please.
.

They won't have obsec in a formation tho. I get that they are better, but.. still not good. MSU need to be a lot cheaper /more durable.

The saddest thing is that this pretty much confirms that either a) GW has no idea that CSM are extremely poor and in desperate need of help or b) GW knows CSM are extremely poor and is perfectly happy to leave them that way. Either one does not bode well for any future codex update.

Nah, we're really hoping that we're basically the Toronto Maple Leafs!

Spoken like a true Torontonian We've finally hit rock bottom!

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Nah, we're really hoping that we're basically the Toronto Maple Leafs!

Spoken like a true Torontonian We've finally hit rock bottom!

But with Shanny & Lou leading in the front office, and Babs behind the bench, the Leafs will definitely be turned into a competitive beast - even if it's still likely 3-4 good years from happening...
Hopefully that's what these "new" supplements are a sign of, the very beginning of a complete overhaul and eventual re-build of the faction. They might be lazy, half-arsed re-writes with about 2% 'new' content, but overall, if our stuff gets even just a proper pts re-adjustment, then most of these new formations would actually be decent & fun to play with/against.


And for the record, I'm a die-hard Habs fan!
But I won't lie that I'm still excited to see that the Loafs are on the right track to becoming relevant again - makes beating you guys up fun again!

Experiment 626 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
They really aren't. They all have possessed. no.

Crimson Slaughter Possessed are actually rock solid, especially by our lowly standards... Obsec, a vastly superior mutations table, and the ability to spam MSU Fearless units? Yes please.

The BL Possessed formation is laughable actually. Hooray, they get Rending + mutation roll!! And you're saddled with taking the game's outright worst MC, and are forced to keep all your Possessed anchored within range of him, otherwise they stand a decent chance of not really moving for a turn... on a purely close combat only unit!

That's nearing the Ork fighter jet formation levels of steaming turd.

Both are still pointless though. Your better off taking a CAD with the few actual good units we have and taking allied daemons for your assault troops just as before. The Red Onslaught's -1 to enemy LD would have been great with an allied nurgle herald with the bell. Or if you rolled the -1
LD Crimson Slaughter WL trait. Or your were taking the Excess Lore and wanted to make an LD bomb list. But there is just no way to justify taking 6 subpar formations.


Also Noise Marines and Plauge Marines do MSU Fearless far better and are cheaper to boot.

The scrolls make the Lord Mastery Level 1 the last memory grants him a additional Mastery Level + sunburst

No, that's not how it works. The scroll doesn't make you a psyker until you actually get a power. From then on you count as a mastery level 1 psyker. So since the scrolls don't make you a psyker, you can't even buy the last memory.

It would work for crimson slaughter, where the lord is an actual psyker at list building time, but presumably they don't get the last memeory to augment the lord. Either way the scroll doesn't increase your mastery level, it only makes you a lvl 1 psyker if the character wasn't as psyker when aquiring its first power.