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Two points:

1. The fact that they are getting new supplements and new model boxes shows that GW hasn't forgotten about Chaos Space Marines. They aren't going the way of the squats.

2. It does cast serious doubt on whether CSM is getting any serious kind of core codex revision any time soon.

I'm afraid that the relatively recent Khorne Demonkin codex (not that recent, but relatively recent nonetheless), with virtually no changes to the chaos space marine units contained therein, bodes poorly for this also.

In Eye of Terror you could put an aspiring champion (like the guy who would normally lead squads) as an HQ choice attached to squads of mutants/cultists/whatever. Maybe a return to that?

I don't see any heavy weapons in that cultists box wonder if this is just 4 of the 5 man box with the AC tossed in

 Drasius wrote:
Not sure what the cultists will get, I'm guessing either run and charge or a version of daemonic instability. Either way, I doubt anyone will care since the only use for cultists is as low priority objective campers.

Except they'll almost certainly lose obsec across the board. Because only SM are allowed to secure objectives.

 Runic wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
I feel like I'm missing something fundamental here?

All I'm seeing are a bunch of existing models clumped together into shared boxes - such as cultists with a champion, terminators with a terminator lord (essentially independent characters stuck in squads of existing units).


None of it is *new*

New formations in both supplements which have not existed before, therefore being new.

Personally can't see anything to be unhappy about. Can't also see why one would be happier with just having the old supplements and the old Codex, aka nothing new, than having the new supplements and formations. But each to his own I guess.

The last few formations excreted by GW for Chaos were generally useless or plain terrible. The thing to be unhappy about is no new chaos codex to resolve the issues and a big additional £££ tax to get a tweaked supplement that doesn't add anything of value.

I'm going to bet on this supplement simply including the existing Helcult formations and so on and maybe one actual new formation of no actual use

Unless the supplements are along the lines of. "Take this and get lots of free things!" It isn't going to fix the underlying cause of CSM being too damn expensive.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Yeah for sure. I am just really liking the direction that the company seems to be taking right now under all the new leadership.

You mean Age of Sigmar?

it'll be formations most likely. end of tyhe day I hope chaos gets a new codex. it's really the only army right now that needs one.

Traditio wrote:
The fact that they are getting new supplements and new model boxes shows that GW hasn't forgotten about Chaos Space Marines. They aren't going the way of the squats.

The battle between Marines and Chaos, with CSM in particular, are the focal point of the entire lore of 40k. CSM getting squatted has never been on the table. Getting moved back into a joint Chaos book though? Maybe. I personally wouldn't mind seeing that at all.
I'd much rather see Chaos divided by Gods, rather than the division of demons and marines. God codexes would be a nice counter point to Marines special Chapter codexes.

It's pretty insane how they'll happily make whole boxes of marines with special iconography like Blood Angels, but there is no box that lets you make specifically Slaaneshi marines. The only thing close to it is one of the heads in the CSM box that looks vaguely Slaanesh, and the noise marine upgrade pack.

It probably just has to do with the popularity of SM being leagues above that of CSM, but they're not exactly helping it by then favouring them in every aspect. Self perpetuating assumption where GW has always believed SM are more popular so they sell more, so they release more things for SM, which makes them more popular...

 Purifier wrote:
The battle between Marines and Chaos, with CSM in particular, are the focal point of the entire lore of 40k. CSM getting squatted has never been on the table. Getting moved back into a joint Chaos book though? Maybe. I personally wouldn't mind seeing that at all.
I'd much rather see Chaos divided by Gods, rather than the division of demons and marines. God codexes would be a nice counter point to Marines special Chapter codexes.

It's pretty insane how they'll happily make whole boxes of marines with special iconography like Blood Angels, but there is no box that lets you make specifically Slaaneshi marines. The only thing close to it is one of the heads in the CSM box that looks vaguely Slaanesh, and the noise marine upgrade pack.

It probably just has to do with the popularity of SM being leagues above that of CSM, but they're not exactly helping it by then favouring them in every aspect. Self perpetuating assumption where GW has always believed SM are more popular so they sell more, so they release more things for SM, which makes them more popular...

Quoted for truth. I'm just surprised that Chaos is now in last place, and how they're starting to give armies new updates before going back to CSM. I feel like CSM are in this weird limbo where they know they can't get rid of them, and they can't take them off the shelves, but they don't want to support them anymore. I know you could argue otherwise given these supplement updates and unit bundles, but honestly these are some of the easiest, have-bob-do-it-over-the-weekend sort of things that they could do. You could always do less, though! Games Workshop could have let it go cold turkey, but they occasionally give this starving codex some gruel and water, and for that, I guess they deserve credit.

motyak wrote:Just edited the title to make it clear this is a general discussion thread about what this release could mean, instead of a news and rumours thread. That seems to be what is happening, and it belongs here then

Thanks

Quarterdime wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Yeah for sure. I am just really liking the direction that the company seems to be taking right now under all the new leadership.

You mean Age of Sigmar?

I am looking forward to the future to see what they fix/change in regards to AoS. The models are amazing, the core rules are not bad.. they just need a structure (points or something). My local FLGS uses a fan made points system and they seem to have a blast with the game so far. But that aside, I was mainly talking about 40k. I think the campaign releases and updating multiple forces at once is a great step forward. They seem to be lowering some price points to allow better access into the hobby, and have started to reach back out to the community. All good signs in my book of a company who finally realized they took a wrong direction and are trying to turn things around.

Gave a look to the formations. Most of them are pretty meh, following the spirit of the daemon ones from the Wulfen book. A few request you to take several squads of Possessed... nuff said.

I don't play formations anyway so couldn't care less, but in any case the comparison with the stuff the loyalist scum is getting with their angels of death supplement is insulting.

 Korinov wrote:
Gave a look to the formations. Most of them are pretty meh, following the spirit of the daemon ones from the Wulfen book. A few request you to take several squads of Possessed... nuff said.

I don't play formations anyway so couldn't care less, but in any case the comparison with the stuff the loyalist scum is getting with their angels of death supplement is insulting.

Where did you see the formations?

Here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321140-new-black-legion-formations/

As I figured, everyone who jumped the negative train about nothing new was simply put, wrong.

I guess the Crimson Slaughter ones are still to come.

Can't wait to cast Shroud of Deceit on some kitted out Centurion Devastators. Or...

"Your Stormsurge has deployed its pistons down and is now shooting twice you say?" *fixes eightfold monocle*

 Runic wrote:
Here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321140-new-black-legion-formations/

As I figured, everyone who jumped the negative train about nothing new was simply put, wrong.

Wouldn't say that. It's still the same overcosted units, and many of the formations are forcing you to tax pretty heavily. Not to mention it's all Khorne.

The cabal was good, as it just straight up gives value to sorcerors, and the Hounds of Abaddon is pretty badass if you happen to already be running Khorne units.

I'm still disappointed as all hells that everything but Khorne gets nothing. Throw Nurgle a bone.

Traditio wrote:
Two points:

1. The fact that they are getting new supplements and new model boxes shows that GW hasn't forgotten about Chaos Space Marines. They aren't going the way of the squats.

2. It does cast serious doubt on whether CSM is getting any serious kind of core codex revision any time soon.

I'm afraid that the relatively recent Khorne Demonkin codex (not that recent, but relatively recent nonetheless), with virtually no changes to the chaos space marine units contained therein, bodes poorly for this also.

Necrons got new formations and stuff in Exterminatus like a month before their new codex. Also these seem to be mostly formations and relics (just like exterminatus), so a new codex that is compatible might not be out of the question.

 Purifier wrote:

Wouldn't say that..

TlR Summary:

Black Legion Gets:

-Black Legion Warband with lots of options of basic units to take. Unclear if this is a decurion, but the benefits are if you kill something you re-roll to hit and wound rolls of 1 for the rest of the phase with the whole formation, and you get double boon rolls (take one or both)

-1 formation with either a lord or a sorc permanently joining a unit of Terminators or Chosen, they get Fearless and a free boon. There must be a typo in this one somewhere, because it lists 1-4 sorcs/lords but I don't see how you can ever take more than 1 RAW

-Hounds of Khorne formation with lots of Khorney goodness, required mark of Khorne on everyone but it is free, they get an ork waagh rule, and if they roll above 7 on the charge they're +1S for the turn.

-2 of any combination of mauler/forgefiend and a warpsmith, they get to declare a character who they get preferred enemy against, and also one of them can choose to use the BS or WS of the warpsmith if within 12. Yay BS5 forgefiend!

-2-5 units of possessed, one daemon prince. Possessed get I5 and Rending, but if not within 18" of the prince need to take a LD test and if they fail, only move D6 in movement phase.

-Chaos sorcerous conclave, gains a special WC3 power (you get +1 free psychic die for each extra sorc within 12" to cast this power) that makes a single non-vehicle enemy unit shoot as if it belonged to you in the shooting phase.

 Runic wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Wouldn't say that..

Saying nothing is new (the definition of nothing being, well, nothing) about something that factually includes new content is simply false. But I won't bother continuing about this further. CSM got some new stuff and there's more to come, the end.

You mean Wulfmar's comment... he was talking about the models, you lemon. No new models.

Time for CSM to steal a Stormsurge

The basic Black Legion formation is likely just the Core Formation of a bigger Decurion detachment, meaning there are probably more benefits coming.

For anyone who wants to see images rather than read a summary, here you go:
Black Legion Warband


Cabal


Chosen


Daemon Engine Pack


Hounds of Abaddon


Tormented

I looked through the formations, and none are that good. The triple Sorcerer one can be fun, so can Hounds of Huron but the others I thought were outright bad. None of it addressed the fundamental problems of the codex. Remember, there's not a single unit in either of the codices, just optional Artefacts, some minor rules, and some formations.

Having some repackaged old models in addition to the NZ GW putting CSMs under "New Releases" because of their new 32mm bases is pretty annoying.

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.

:(

 ChazSexington wrote:

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.
:(

Loyalists are getting formations and relics from the previously existing supplements and in the case of formations, the digital only Skyhammer formation that everybody whines about. They're getting the Raven Guard+White Scar stuff from Kauyon, the Iron Hands stuff from Clan Raaukan, and the Imperial Fists stuff from Sentinels of Terra.

The only definitively new stuff is a Detachment for the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists and Salamanders being added in general with a Detachment of their own.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.
:(

Loyalists are getting formations and relics from the previously existing supplements and in the case of formations, the digital only Skyhammer formation that everybody whines about. They're getting the Raven Guard+White Scar stuff from Kauyon, the Iron Hands stuff from Clan Raaukan, and the Imperial Fists stuff from Sentinels of Terra.

The only definitively new stuff is a Detachment for the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists and Salamanders being added in general with a Detachment of their own.

You forgot the spells. They look filthy.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.
:(

Loyalists are getting formations and relics from the previously existing supplements and in the case of formations, the digital only Skyhammer formation that everybody whines about. They're getting the Raven Guard+White Scar stuff from Kauyon, the Iron Hands stuff from Clan Raaukan, and the Imperial Fists stuff from Sentinels of Terra.

The only definitively new stuff is a Detachment for the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists and Salamanders being added in general with a Detachment of their own.

You forgot the spells. They look filthy.

Yeah, but the spells are also not exclusive to the Angels of Death book. They're literally just adding four new Disciplines exclusive to Space Marines. Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves all get access to these Disciplines as well.

On paper the spells look great, but all they're doing is reinforcing the normal death stars. They'll do nothing to change up play.

Yeah, consider me unimpressed. The possessed one doesn't solve the problems with possessed, the hounds of Abbadon is okay, free mark of khorne is nice, but it just makes khorne berserkers even worse value for money, the +1 S is okay too as is the old fleet rule.

The daemon engine pack isn't that great, you can't use Maulerfiends because the Warpsmith has no way of keeping up, so it's forge fiends only. If the preferred enemy was a unit or monster out creature, it would be better.

The chosen of Abbadon sucks. You basically get a free boon of mutation.

The black legion war and just makes you take things you wouldn't take anyway, and for no major benefit.

The best one is the Cabal, but that is a load of points for a bunch of guys who die to missile launchers. Unless you want to upgrade them, in which case just bring a super heavy you'll get more firepower.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.
:(

Loyalists are getting formations and relics from the previously existing supplements and in the case of formations, the digital only Skyhammer formation that everybody whines about. They're getting the Raven Guard+White Scar stuff from Kauyon, the Iron Hands stuff from Clan Raaukan, and the Imperial Fists stuff from Sentinels of Terra.

The only definitively new stuff is a Detachment for the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists and Salamanders being added in general with a Detachment of their own.

Also, keep in mind that the Loyalist Detachments largely make use of the regular Codex auxiliary formations (WS only got two new auxiliaries in Kauyon), so it isn't like they are going to be swimming in new formations with this book. Probably two new formations for each Chapter along with a specialized Battle-Demi Company and Detachment.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

And the Loyalists get formations, Relics (?), and 28 new spells.
:(

Loyalists are getting formations and relics from the previously existing supplements and in the case of formations, the digital only Skyhammer formation that everybody whines about. They're getting the Raven Guard+White Scar stuff from Kauyon, the Iron Hands stuff from Clan Raaukan, and the Imperial Fists stuff from Sentinels of Terra.

The only definitively new stuff is a Detachment for the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists and Salamanders being added in general with a Detachment of their own.

You forgot the spells. They look filthy.

The reroll armor thing might let something live vs Eldar or Tau high ROF weapons. Is that not allowed?

Spoke too soon. The Black Legion formations are at least interesting. The points from the core codex are still all sorts of insanity, so there's that. At least it isn't what they did to the poor, poor Orks and Cadians.