There you go, you can add libbys to units and reroll all your saves, you can quit your bitchin. Imperial deathstars just got insanely survivable.

Not the storm wolf cav, please! Anything else!

The options are endless now. If libby conclave can access these then dizzzz-amn.

Great just what we needed, Fortune for Imperial units. Can't wait for all the 2++ rerollable deathstars

 CrownAxe wrote:
Great just what we needed, Fortune for Imperial units. Can't wait for all the 2++ rerollable deathstars

ThunderLibbyRavenWolfConclave, complete with 2++ rerollable, invisibility and feel no pain. Such Tactics!

I'm probably ignorant, but where is this power coming from? I don't see any new 40k releases on the GW site.

PrinceOfMadness wrote:
I'm probably ignorant, but where is this power coming from? I don't see any new 40k releases on the GW site.

Angels of death release on the 16th. Marines are getting 4 new power trees with 28 new powers, in addition to new units, relics and formations

The Culexus Assassin seems to become more and more enticing for all players to convert into their force with these psychic shenanigans running about.

 Grimskul wrote:
The Culexus Assassin seems to become more and more enticing for all players to convert into their force with these psychic shenanigans running about.

I already run him in a pod for that reason. Grenade out and blast the libbys in the ass.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
The Culexus Assassin seems to become more and more enticing for all players to convert into their force with these psychic shenanigans running about.

I already run him in a pod for that reason. Grenade out and blast the libbys in the ass.

Harder to do for xenos races using a converted model, as an Ork player I'm still staying pure by not allying any other factions but I'll admit, I am tempted to convert an Ork kommando with a warp "vacuum" kinda of armour (like an opposite version of a shokk attack gun) which he uses to empower his body to represent how he simulates the same abilities as a Culexus Assassin.

Luckily any ruleset that has the nerfed rerollable 2+ -bit enabled won't be affected that much. Also it might have interesting effects since that's one power you have to roll for (is it a full psychic discipline?) so then folks might have less Invisibility.

Deathstars are already most countered by things that aren't interested about armoursaves (D, Stomp, Culexus in a Flyer/Pod, tarpit) so the usual counters work the same as before. It's the more ineffective stuff that suffers from this.

All and all, the most potent deathstars are already unkillable and played against in a totally different way than trying to destroy them unless you have a counter, so in a way it doesn't change much. Not saying this was needed really. Maybe now you can play some Terminators?

I dearly hope this is a late April fools joke. Orikan the Diviner is already an auto-include in lychstar and wraith star lists for Necron players as he allows rerollable saves, but at least they don't have 2+ armor. I did the math recently (because I saw a proposed rules thread that wanted to make lychguard 2+) and determined it would take 810 bolter shots to kill 5 lychguard. Centstar is going to be even worse if they can get invisibility. Rerollable 2+ for a unit make them virtually immune to small arms fire, and if they get invisibility too I can't think of anything that can kill them.

I never want to hear people complaining about Eldar Psyker Trickery ever again.

Nobody should have 2+ rerollable saves. Period.

Scratch that. Nobody should have rerollable saves.

 Xerics wrote:
I never want to hear people complaining about Eldar Psyker Trickery ever again.

No we'll just complain about both now

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I never want to hear people complaining about Eldar Psyker Trickery ever again.

No we'll just complain about both now

*slinks away into shadows with Tzeentch Psychic Trickery*

Oh good, I got tired of playing things other than marines and eldar in tournaments.

Looks like Marines players might want to stop complaining as much as they do about Tau after this...seriously this is brutal, and all the other powers that have been shown are also really good!

This applies to one unit. The one with the psyche casting it. I'm pretty sure tau are going to be less than awesome to play against. On the plus side, I've now got a reason to ally in a couple of units of GK.

Could this make Terminators worthwhile again?

Deathwing Knights with a Librarian in TDA 2+/3++ rerollable?

Can... I can haz playable Deathwing? O_o

Ooh a terminator libby with hammernators as part of the conclave (the others being with a bike star and podding grav turions). Yea... I can see this power causing problems.

*buys a Culexus Assassin*

Now i wonder if Sevrin Loth can use these powers...

Its a shame that the people writing the rules don't actually play the game because maybe then they would realize how dumb giving units rerolling saves is.

Dantes__Baals speaks. Then the commander himself lol.

Anyway, Loth is bonfide astartes. Worse yet, I'm pretty sure he can pick and choose which ones he uses. Veil of time, Prescience and Invisibility. Oh boy...

he cant pick prescience, he may only pick his powers from Biomancy,Telepathy,Telekenesis and Daemonology (both types) and i would assume these new powers when they are released (an Email to FW will be required) plus all his powers MUST be from the same tree so you can either make himself into a Deathstar,buff his units with invisiblity/GoI and Hammerhand or Spawn a lot of daemons

He can be taken in a Librarius conclave tho...
(and that veil of time will be OP on him 2++ Rerollable? YES PLEASE)

I'd be more worried about Tiggy in the Conclave. IIRC, Tiggy can reroll failed Psychic tests? Park him next to 2 other conclavers and that's Invisibility/rerollables, harnassing on a 2+ with rerolls, for a 2+/3++ rerollable. And he can take the powers of other libbies in the conclave so he could legitimately have all of these.

BLUG :\
Why did I even try to revamp my orks..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

commander dante wrote:

Now i wonder if Sevrin Loth can use these powers...

This one is easy.
-Look at the names these new schools of powers.
-look at the rules for Loth.
-look closer at his special rule that allows him to pick powers of specific schools.
-Now compare those names with the new names.

 oldzoggy wrote:
BLUG :\
Why did I even try to revamp my orks..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

commander dante wrote:

Now i wonder if Sevrin Loth can use these powers...

Look at the names these new schools of powers.
Now look at the rules for Loth.
Now look closer at his special rule that allows him to pick powers of specific schools.

Now compare those names with the new names.

Hence why i said an Email to FW will be required
After all, his rules WERE written in 6th ed

No email is required.
Rules don't give you permission to pull this trick off. He simply doesn't have the rule to select powers from the new schools, even if the supplement allows him to generate powers from the new school.
Emailing them will change nothing. You will need an errata or update that changes the rule. An email to FW is just as helpful as an Email to your local store owner who just happens to sell those new power cards.
You could try to convince your opponent to house rule otherwise but most players will not be that happy to do this.

 oldzoggy wrote:
No email is required.
Rules don't give you permission to pull this trick off. He simply doesn't have the rule to select powers from the new schools, even if the supplement allows him to generate powers from the new school.
Emailing them will change nothing. You will need an errata or update that changes the rule. An email to FW is just as helpful as an Email to your local store owner who just happens to sell those new power cards.
You could try to convince your opponent to house rule otherwise but most players will not be that happy to do this.

Unlike GW, FW emails are as good as errata as they actually answer the question and are usually consistant, and consistant with the eventual errata. When Loth was first announced he simply knew all Space Marine powers, and then he knew all of an entire discipline, now he gets to pick his powers. This is a "game changer" so it'll require another FAQ

I am glad I added a Librarian to my 1850 list now. I may change out my Honor Guard for Storm Shield carrying Vanguard Veterans though.

 gmaleron wrote:
Looks like Marines players might want to stop complaining as much as they do about Tau after this...seriously this is brutal, and all the other powers that have been shown are also really good!

"

Tau have the shots to cope. It's not like anyone is getting an armor save against the ion accelerator anyway.

Technomancer to give Honor Guard Storm Shields will be nice.

Hey, if Librarius has Null Zone (Misfortune for Invulnerable saves), then we really are not allowed to bitch about Eldar Powers. Until then, Conceal/Reveal are still a thing, as is Misfortune.

Misfortune causes rends on "6's". What are you saying about null zone?

 Ravenous D wrote:

PrinceOfMadness wrote:
I'm probably ignorant, but where is this power coming from? I don't see any new 40k releases on the GW site.

Angels of death release on the 16th. Marines are getting 4 new power trees with 28 new powers, in addition to new units, relics and formations

Oh my God...why do they need this.

Martel732 wrote:
Misfortune causes rends on "6's". What are you saying about null zone?

Don't Eldar have a power that lets them force the opponents to reroll failed saves? Or am I thinking 6th?

 Crazyterran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Misfortune causes rends on "6's". What are you saying about null zone?

Don't Eldar have a power that lets them force the opponents to reroll failed saves? Or am I thinking 6th?

Maybe they do. I haven't seen them use it recently.

Martel732 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Misfortune causes rends on "6's". What are you saying about null zone?

Don't Eldar have a power that lets them force the opponents to reroll failed saves? Or am I thinking 6th?

Maybe they do. I haven't seen them use it recently.

That was the 6th edition Misfortune.

Misfortune+Skitarii Vanguard with Radium Carbines DESTROYS EVERYTHING

So basically it sounds like they brought back 5th ed null zone?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Technomancer to give Honor Guard Storm Shields will be nice.

Hey, if Librarius has Null Zone (Misfortune for Invulnerable saves), then we really are not allowed to bitch about Eldar Powers. Until then, Conceal/Reveal are still a thing, as is Misfortune.

Explain the top statement. How is Technomancer giving Storm Shields to Honour Guard? This may drastically increase the effectiveness of my PedroStar.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Technomancer to give Honor Guard Storm Shields will be nice.

Hey, if Librarius has Null Zone (Misfortune for Invulnerable saves), then we really are not allowed to bitch about Eldar Powers. Until then, Conceal/Reveal are still a thing, as is Misfortune.

Explain the top statement. How is Technomancer giving Storm Shields to Honour Guard? This may drastically increase the effectiveness of my PedroStar.

They have a power to give their unit a 3+ Invulnerable save, no? (goes back to look)

Oh god damnit, it just gives him a 3+ invulnerable save. I need to read better, clearly. I mean, what the hell is the point of that? Librarians can already get Stormshields... grumble... grumble...

Twice you've caught me not reading properly, sir! Twice!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Technomancer to give Honor Guard Storm Shields will be nice.

Hey, if Librarius has Null Zone (Misfortune for Invulnerable saves), then we really are not allowed to bitch about Eldar Powers. Until then, Conceal/Reveal are still a thing, as is Misfortune.

Explain the top statement. How is Technomancer giving Storm Shields to Honour Guard? This may drastically increase the effectiveness of my PedroStar.

I assume he is referring to Electro Shield for 3+ invuln but it only targets the psyker not the unit.

Oh hooray. Another psychic power made useless by the scatterlaser existing.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Technomancer to give Honor Guard Storm Shields will be nice.

Hey, if Librarius has Null Zone (Misfortune for Invulnerable saves), then we really are not allowed to bitch about Eldar Powers. Until then, Conceal/Reveal are still a thing, as is Misfortune.

Explain the top statement. How is Technomancer giving Storm Shields to Honour Guard? This may drastically increase the effectiveness of my PedroStar.

They have a power to give their unit a 3+ Invulnerable save, no? (goes back to look)

Oh god damnit, it just gives him a 3+ invulnerable save. I need to read better, clearly. I mean, what the hell is the point of that? Librarians can already get Stormshields... grumble... grumble...

Twice you've caught me not reading properly, sir! Twice!

Again, no worries. What you are getting me to do is take a closer look at the previews, so that is a good thing. That power is actually a Fulmination power, so it is possible for you to be right about a Technomancer power giving an Invul. Also, Librarians can only take a Storm Shield in Terminator armor, so this saves someone 40 pts.

Wait whot a Technomancer....

What herecy is this. Is there a link to the powers already known ?

 Orock wrote:
Oh good, I got tired of playing things other than marines and eldar in tournaments.

Best thing you ever posted.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Technomancer to give Honor Guard Storm Shields will be nice.

Hey, if Librarius has Null Zone (Misfortune for Invulnerable saves), then we really are not allowed to bitch about Eldar Powers. Until then, Conceal/Reveal are still a thing, as is Misfortune.

Explain the top statement. How is Technomancer giving Storm Shields to Honour Guard? This may drastically increase the effectiveness of my PedroStar.

They have a power to give their unit a 3+ Invulnerable save, no? (goes back to look)

Oh god damnit, it just gives him a 3+ invulnerable save. I need to read better, clearly. I mean, what the hell is the point of that? Librarians can already get Stormshields... grumble... grumble...

Twice you've caught me not reading properly, sir! Twice!

Again, no worries. What you are getting me to do is take a closer look at the previews, so that is a good thing. That power is actually a Fulmination power, so it is possible for you to be right about a Technomancer power giving an Invul. Also, Librarians can only take a Storm Shield in Terminator armor, so this saves someone 40 pts.

TDA is also the only way that Librarians get a 2+ save. So really, 40 points isn't crazy if you were already planning on making a choppy Librarian. And if you are, you'd want the Storm Shield for the guarantee, so, the power is kind of a resounding meh.

It might be nice if Tigurius gets it, but that's about all I can see.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Technomancer to give Honor Guard Storm Shields will be nice.

Hey, if Librarius has Null Zone (Misfortune for Invulnerable saves), then we really are not allowed to bitch about Eldar Powers. Until then, Conceal/Reveal are still a thing, as is Misfortune.

Explain the top statement. How is Technomancer giving Storm Shields to Honour Guard? This may drastically increase the effectiveness of my PedroStar.

They have a power to give their unit a 3+ Invulnerable save, no? (goes back to look)

Oh god damnit, it just gives him a 3+ invulnerable save. I need to read better, clearly. I mean, what the hell is the point of that? Librarians can already get Stormshields... grumble... grumble...

Twice you've caught me not reading properly, sir! Twice!

Again, no worries. What you are getting me to do is take a closer look at the previews, so that is a good thing. That power is actually a Fulmination power, so it is possible for you to be right about a Technomancer power giving an Invul. Also, Librarians can only take a Storm Shield in Terminator armor, so this saves someone 40 pts.

TDA is also the only way that Librarians get a 2+ save. So really, 40 points isn't crazy if you were already planning on making a choppy Librarian. And if you are, you'd want the Storm Shield for the guarantee, so, the power is kind of a resounding meh.

It might be nice if Tigurius gets it, but that's about all I can see.

Might be nice on a Brother Captain / Grand Master for the GKs. Can't take a Storm Shield but is more of a melee character than Librarian so trying to get increased durability (and can't take Biomancy) so isn't out of the question for him to make use of that power.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

PrinceOfMadness wrote:
I'm probably ignorant, but where is this power coming from? I don't see any new 40k releases on the GW site.

Angels of death release on the 16th. Marines are getting 4 new power trees with 28 new powers, in addition to new units, relics and formations

Oh my God...why do they need this.

The vast majority of the formations and relics are actually just stuff from all of the supplements that have been released over the years (such as Skyhammer) compiled into one book. I believe that Salamanders are also getting a formation. The big new thing that SM are getting is the psychic powers.

 EnTyme wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

PrinceOfMadness wrote:
I'm probably ignorant, but where is this power coming from? I don't see any new 40k releases on the GW site.

Angels of death release on the 16th. Marines are getting 4 new power trees with 28 new powers, in addition to new units, relics and formations

Oh my God...why do they need this.

The vast majority of the formations and relics are actually just stuff from all of the supplements that have been released over the years (such as Skyhammer) compiled into one book. I believe that Salamanders are also getting a formation. The big new thing that SM are getting is the psychic powers.

Psychic powers that are going to break the game even further with their super friends deathstars?

It's strong, but wouldn't it be nice if we could get new rules without people immediately planning to abuse it

Beyond that, they look strong, but not game breaking unless someone is actively trying to. It's also "limited" by only working on the caster's unit, which is nice.

Veil of Time on a Dark Angels Librarian paired with Azrael in a Guard Blob. Good luck killing that thing!

 Brennonjw wrote:
It's strong, but wouldn't it be nice if we could get new rules without people immediately planning to abuse it

Beyond that, they look strong, but not game breaking unless someone is actively trying to.

which people will immediatley do en masse, just as they have woth scatterbikes, RP bonuses, etc. If GW tells people they can, they will

It's also "limited" by only working on the caster's unit, which is nice.

given that theres relativley little difficulty building the caster into the places where it would be abused the most, it doesnt help too much, though it does make it less powerful than the Eldar equivalent.

There better be some powers that increase WS/Strength to a unit
Would be God-Like on stuff like Death Company or Sanguinary Guard

Damn, Now that urges me to clear off the dust on my Librarian Dreadnought

Someone needs to do a star vs star test using this new psychic power:
Invis centurians with a 2+ re-rollable armour save
Vs
Invis screamers with a 2++ re-rollable invul save. (Alternatively have horrors with invus 2++ re-rollable for the extra casting dice)

 mrhappyface wrote:
Someone needs to do a star vs star test using this new psychic power:
Invis centurians with a 2+ re-rollable armour save
Vs
Invis screamers with a 2++ re-rollable invul save. (Alternatively have horrors with invus 2++ re-rollable for the extra casting dice)

What is there to test? Neither unit will die. Its a stalemate

The screamers could use their bite to go through the centurions armour.

 mrhappyface wrote:
The screamers could use their bite to go through the centurions armour.

They're still invisible and since they need a psyker character to make them a deathstar there should also be a storm shield in the way

Culexus Assassins in Space Marine Drop Pods.

Just keep on gaking on the background guys.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
The screamers could use their bite to go through the centurions armour.

They're still invisible and since they need a psyker character to make them a deathstar there should also be a storm shield in the way

But how long would they last? A 1/36 chance to lose a wound is still a chance.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Veil of Time on a Dark Angels Librarian paired with Azrael in a Guard Blob. Good luck killing that thing!

That'd be as annoying as 20 Warriors with RP and an Overlord in a Decurion, but not as threatening

 mrhappyface wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
The screamers could use their bite to go through the centurions armour.

They're still invisible and since they need a psyker character to make them a deathstar there should also be a storm shield in the way

But how long would they last? A 1/36 chance to lose a wound is still a chance.

A unit scremers is only getting 9 ap2 attacks per combat, with invis that's only 1.5 hits and with the T5 thats only .75 wounds. Even before you take the rerollable 3++ storm shield on the libby into account they aren't doing any damage.

Oh great, just what we needed. Yet more Space Marine buffs. What was wrong, some screaming children where not winning all of a sudden?

 Grimtuff wrote:
Culexus Assassins in Space Marine Drop Pods.

Just keep on gaking on the background guys.

Assassins are usually deployed via pods, so its a good way to represent that

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Culexus Assassins in Space Marine Drop Pods.

Just keep on gaking on the background guys.

Assassins are usually deployed via pods, so its a good way to represent that

pretty much that, or a Vindicare to snipe the librarian turn 1
A Callidus to get into CC turn 2
or an Eversor to just MURDER EVERYTHING

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Veil of Time on a Dark Angels Librarian paired with Azrael in a Guard Blob. Good luck killing that thing!

Then take libby conclave and with sanctic daemonology and get 3++ Now you have guardsmen that need 9 wounds each.

If anything this release just looks like they've stopped caring and that the end times are here before they AoS 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:
I never want to hear people complaining about Eldar Psyker Trickery ever again.

Nah it wont stop them because Eldar have D that can counter it. Eldar are the worst. Just look at Martel, that guy sucks so bad against eldar he is a ball of anger the second the name comes up.

Only valid publications are rulebooks and online FAQ's, emails count for squat (although I acknowledge that FW rule writing and clarity is better than GW).

I guess it's time for Xenos races bar Eldar and possibly Tau can start complaining? Maybe lump Orks into that, since they can have their main HQ reroll saves (although without an Invulnerable to counteract AP2/Ignore Cover)

Orks get to legit complain, their book is awful and had one of its barely viable builds deleted.

I'm referring more to re-roll saves.

Of course Orks can complain about their book, it is garbage compared to the power creep the game has experienced since 2015. I was pretty upset and vocal about their supplement update.

Best part is this



Dark angels, blood angels, grey knights and space wolves get them too. Pretty safe to say Loth will get them. Enter End times 40k power crank territory

Loth doesn't get them until Forge World actually re-releases SM Characters or the Badab War, and before we all gak ourselves, remember, you have to actually roll the Veil of Time, and Sanctuary, and Invisibility. Not impossible, but not as world ending as we thought.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Loth doesn't get them until Forge World actually re-releases SM Characters or the Badab War, and before we all gak ourselves, remember, you have to actually roll the Veil of Time, and Sanctuary, and Invisibility. Not impossible, but not as world ending as we thought.

Tiggy pretty much means you get it. Plus the libby conclave is a pretty safe bet.

Not to mention we haven't seen the other 25 powers.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Dark angels, blood angels, grey knights and space wolves get them too. Pretty safe to say Loth will get them. Enter End times 40k power crank territory

We've been there for the last year+, between Necrons, Eldar, SM's, etc, we've been there for quite some time.

Remember when everyone thought summoning was going to break the game?

Im not a fan of this by any means, the time and energy could have been spent on other more needing armies, however they are just getting more options for stupidity. The deathstars are already OP now they have to pick which OP they are. I dont see them getting any worse from this.

 Deadshot wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
No email is required.
Rules don't give you permission to pull this trick off. He simply doesn't have the rule to select powers from the new schools, even if the supplement allows him to generate powers from the new school.
Emailing them will change nothing. You will need an errata or update that changes the rule. An email to FW is just as helpful as an Email to your local store owner who just happens to sell those new power cards.
You could try to convince your opponent to house rule otherwise but most players will not be that happy to do this.

Unlike GW, FW emails are as good as errata as they actually answer the question and are usually consistant, and consistant with the eventual errata. When Loth was first announced he simply knew all Space Marine powers, and then he knew all of an entire discipline, now he gets to pick his powers. This is a "game changer" so it'll require another FAQ

To many fake emails posted on 4chan for me to ever take an email as proof of any rule in 40k. Get fw to answer your question on Facebook than you have something.

However rolling on this tree just to get a chance at rerollable saves is still worse then invisibility tree. Telepathy is just a good tree all around. And this is just another reason to play ITC rules and nerf 2+ rerollable. Well it's not like a 2+ invul followed by 4+ invul is that much easier to kill.

Don't worry, I will just use my BL sorcerer cabal to take over your grav and grav amp centurion mate stood next to you. See how that 2+ on your libby works to your advantage sir!

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Don't worry, I will just use my BL sorcerer cabal to take over your grav and grav amp centurion mate stood next to you. See how that 2+ on your libby works to your advantage sir!

Why wouldn't the libbys be in the Centstar?

So since imperials have a possible counter using assassins, what about all the other races?

 Konrax wrote:
So since imperials have a possible counter using assassins, what about all the other races?

L2P?

Shoot the unbuffed units. It's not like SW can't already construct the unkillable Wolfstar.

Wolfstar was fine compared to wolfstar with veil of time. I used to be able to kill wolfstar, now what do I do?

A nurgle prince with balesword was all I needed in the past... now I feel left behind entirely. Even 2 nurgle princes with a balesword is iffy now.

Would it be possible to have a grey knight cast sanctuary on wolfstar for a 2++ rerollable invuln save? If this is the case I'm going to have to speak to my group about how to deal with it.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Don't worry, I will just use my BL sorcerer cabal to take over your grav and grav amp centurion mate stood next to you. See how that 2+ on your libby works to your advantage sir!

Why wouldn't the libbys be in the Centstar?

Very well, you yes you plasma cannon wielding devestator, I understand the centstar are mocking you. Blam (dependent on scatter).

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Wolfstar was fine compared to wolfstar with veil of time. I used to be able to kill wolfstar, now what do I do?

A nurgle prince with balesword was all I needed in the past... now I feel left behind entirely. Even 2 nurgle princes with a balesword is iffy now.

Would it be possible to have a grey knight cast sanctuary on wolfstar for a 2++ rerollable invuln save? If this is the case I'm going to have to speak to my group about how to deal with it.

Does the power reroll all saves or just armor saves?

It rerolls all saves. Otherwise it wouldn't matter much.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It rerolls all saves. Otherwise it wouldn't matter much.

Well, that's a pretty big problem, then.

Martel732 wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It rerolls all saves. Otherwise it wouldn't matter much.

Well, that's a pretty big problem, then.

I'm not the most knowledgeable player, but it seems to me that wolfstar with this tactic is now one of if not the best lists. Particularly if there are grey knight psykers with 12" movement.

Christ, even without a 2++ rerollable, wolfstar durability is now insane with veil of time.

No 12 inch GK Libby movement, we aren't allowed nice things.

But it looks like a Culuxes is mandatory from now on in lists. Maybe even two.

For real though, anyone could see this coming, 3++ wasnt good enough for the SPESS MUREEN because they could die! Best course of action is buff the everloving crap out of them, 10/10 gw. This might be the final straw for me.

.

Not to worry lads! With the new Black Legion formations your Chaos Terminators can be Fearless when they're joined by a Chaos Lord! Let's see those Space Marines deal with that!

Maybe the bright side to this is that BA will be the only chapter that can actually get games. Yes, BA could take this power, but we've got no conclave, and no deathstar to cast it on.

BA has a unit that can take bikes + storm shields, no?

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
BA has a unit that can take bikes + storm shields, no?

I don't think my command squad gets bikes. Only jump packs. They do get storm shields, but only on three dudes.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
BA has a unit that can take bikes + storm shields, no?

No actually

well. I can see the strong cheese with that.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Not to worry lads! With the new Black Legion formations your Chaos Terminators can be Fearless when they're joined by a Chaos Lord! Let's see those Space Marines deal with that!

The Chaos Sorcerers gain Fearless as well, and you can add Chosen instead of Terminators.

Just pointing out that getting Fearless added to your Psyker at no points cost isn't exactly something to sneeze at.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Not to worry lads! With the new Black Legion formations your Chaos Terminators can be Fearless when they're joined by a Chaos Lord! Let's see those Space Marines deal with that!

The Chaos Sorcerers gain Fearless as well, and you can add Chosen instead of Terminators.

Just pointing out that getting Fearless added to your Psyker at no points cost isn't exactly something to sneeze at.

There isn't no point cost. The formation requires that you put it in a tax terminator or chosen unit

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Not to worry lads! With the new Black Legion formations your Chaos Terminators can be Fearless when they're joined by a Chaos Lord! Let's see those Space Marines deal with that!

The Chaos Sorcerers gain Fearless as well, and you can add Chosen instead of Terminators.

Just pointing out that getting Fearless added to your Psyker at no points cost isn't exactly something to sneeze at.

There isn't no point cost. The formation requires that you put it in a tax terminator or chosen unit

Does it cost you points to add Fearless to your Sorcerer?
No, it doesn't.

And really, taking Chosen units is a "tax" now? Terminators yeah, sure that's a tax. But being able to pick between Chosen or Terminators--it's a pretty easy decision to make.

Both Chosen and Termis are bad. So yes both are taxes

Email Regarding Sevrin Loth in a Librarius Conclave, to those who asked and are wondering

This honestly to me seems to break 40k worse than the dreaded scatter laser did... I've been thinking of how to deal with this and I'm lost.

And there's more powers yet still unseen.

commander dante wrote:
Email Regarding Sevrin Loth in a Librarius Conclave, to those who asked and are wondering

Emails aren't rules sources

 CrownAxe wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Email Regarding Sevrin Loth in a Librarius Conclave, to those who asked and are wondering

Emails aren't rules sources

I don't think he was claiming that the e-mail is a rules source. It had been previously mentioned that FW said Loth can be used in a Conclave via e-mail, and people asked about it.

 Happyjew wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Email Regarding Sevrin Loth in a Librarius Conclave, to those who asked and are wondering

Emails aren't rules sources

I don't think he was claiming that the e-mail is a rules source. It had been previously mentioned that FW said Loth can be used in a Conclave via e-mail, and people asked about it.

That was the Intention
Well the good thing is it will be revised whenever FW decide to release an FaQ

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Not to worry lads! With the new Black Legion formations your Chaos Terminators can be Fearless when they're joined by a Chaos Lord! Let's see those Space Marines deal with that!

The Chaos Sorcerers gain Fearless as well, and you can add Chosen instead of Terminators.

Just pointing out that getting Fearless added to your Psyker at no points cost isn't exactly something to sneeze at.

I am aware of that, thank you. However this of course begs the question - why allow the lord to be taken in the first place if by doing so you make the only (good) benefit of the formation completely redundant? The way they wrote the rule, the lord has to join the unit, can never leave and the unit only gains Fearless while the he's alive. The rule literally does nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Or conversely, if you're intent on allowing the lord in the formation, why not make the benefit something both the lord and the sorcerer can use? Oh no, can't have that - might be too powerful!

It just smacks of the timid lackadaisical phone-it-in style of writing that seems to be a hallmark of CSM rules for the past decade. I guess that's what you get for winning the Eye of Terror campaign when you weren't supposed to.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
This honestly to me seems to break 40k worse than the dreaded scatter laser did... I've been thinking of how to deal with this and I'm lost.

And there's more powers yet still unseen.

There is no denying that, dare I say they are now almost on par with eldar cheese?
This power needs to be "faq" to only reroll armour saves or its going to break the crap out of the game, and im debaiting if its even worthwhile to continue expanding on my sisters if this is going to be Warhammer40k:Marines.

 Happyjew wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Email Regarding Sevrin Loth in a Librarius Conclave, to those who asked and are wondering

Emails aren't rules sources

I don't think he was claiming that the e-mail is a rules source. It had been previously mentioned that FW said Loth can be used in a Conclave via e-mail, and people asked about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but forge world seems to have an auto reply of "play the game however you think is reasonable". It's not quite as bad as GW's "FORGE A NARRATIVE OR THREE" but they will almost always tell you that it's fine to play something one way, so long as it seems relatively reasonable.

Do I think that Loth should go in a Librarius Conclave? Without a doubt. Do I think that many tournaments will allow this? Yes. But would I be surprised if some (even some larger ones) decided not to? Not one bit

There was a reason why marines never had reroll saves because they get tons of 2+ and 3++ and FNP. Eldar just had 4+ and 3+'s on some things.

Now even the humble hammernators are 1/36 to kill with standard weapons and 1/9 to kill with Ap2. Not to mention if they then throw FNP into the mix or throwing in a libby conclave and rolling sanctuary.

Even guardsmen with a sang priest, libby conclave and azreal is just smacking your head against the wall.

It completely changes the meta for sure.

 Ravenous D wrote:
There was a reason why marines never had reroll saves because they get tons of 2+ and 3++ and FNP. Eldar just had 4+ and 3+'s on some things.

Now even the humble hammernators are 1/36 to kill with standard weapons and 1/9 to kill with Ap2. Not to mention if they then throw FNP into the mix or throwing in a libby conclave and rolling sanctuary.

Even guardsmen with a sang priest, libby conclave and azreal is just smacking your head against the wall.

It completely changes the meta for sure.

You are making the mistake of assuming that any thought at all was ever put into this. Marines never had reroll saves because they didn't. Eldar are perfectly capable of abusing fortune, but there's just even better things for them to abuse now. Like tabling lists in two turns. So no, there's no reason. Because GW doesn't make reasoned decisions. They vomit out random gak and people lap it up.

Gentle jebus there is some gloom and doom in here. Yes, it will be problematic, but only on deathstars. If it worked across the entire conclave, yea I can see it being as bad as everyone is assuming it will be, but as of now it's only the psykers unit. Not much (if any) worse than what eldar have been doing for 2 editions now. Unless I'm missing something this is being blown way the hell out of proportion. That said, if there other new powers that can buff this buff then yes, it will be pretty awful. I mean worst case scenario is it is used to buff units that probably weren't going down to much outside Str D anyway.

text removed.

Reds8n

Unfortunately for you, I'm right. There is no thought put into any of this. So there is no "reason".

Your attitude amuses me because you probably couldn't win a game with a list as weak as BA. Too used to your point and click Eldar wins.

 Ravenous D wrote:
There was a reason why marines never had reroll saves because they get tons of 2+ and 3++ and FNP. Eldar just had 4+ and 3+'s on some things.

Now even the humble hammernators are 1/36 to kill with standard weapons and 1/9 to kill with Ap2. Not to mention if they then throw FNP into the mix or throwing in a libby conclave and rolling sanctuary.

Even guardsmen with a sang priest, libby conclave and azreal is just smacking your head against the wall.

It completely changes the meta for sure.

Now imagine a couple biker libbies with Veil of Time, Endurance, Sanctuary, and Invisibility rolling alongside some TWC all with TH/SS. If all powers go off and they get in combat... Better have your enemy kiss his unit goodbye.

Martel732 wrote:Unfortunately for you, I'm right. There is no thought put into any of this. So there is no "reason".

Your attitude amuses me because you probably couldn't win a game with a list as weak as BA. Too used to your point and click Eldar wins.

Ditto. I'll be impressed by these "learn to play" people when they win a competitive match using an Ork trukk army.

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Unfortunately for you, I'm right. There is no thought put into any of this. So there is no "reason".

Your attitude amuses me because you probably couldn't win a game with a list as weak as BA. Too used to your point and click Eldar wins.

Ditto. I'll be impressed by these "learn to play" people when they win a competitive match using an Ork trukk army.

That would make me a third. Easy to spout nonsense like L2P when you're currently cleaning out swathes of the table with Str D templates, bikes that skirt the length of the board in a turn and single models that soak up an entire armies worth of shooting. When they step into a different pair of shoes and have to nut up and figure how to beat this stupidness with what are by all acounts the worst books with the most limited strategies and monobuild playstyles they'd be singing an entirely different tune. Hard to identify with the have not when you've had a silver wraith bone stuck up your backside ever since you picked up the dice.


Back on topic, I still think this is being blown out of proportion. The only problem I can forsee is the effect it will have on already stupidly hard to kill deathstars. Otherwise I can see it helping out a few armies in desperate need of a bone (most IoM armies that AREN'T vanilla SM, DA or SW, but are battle brothers with them) or generally shaking up the meta. The latter of the two actually being good things.

The re-roll armour saves spell won't break the game much if at all, and every player who is well versed in the game knows this.

It will only make the already unkillable deathstars more unkillable, hardly changing anything. The same counters that worked on those before will continue to do so all the same.

Invisibility is still better/worse whichever way one wants to put it. Someones terminators re-rolling their saves is hardly a bad thing, maybe those will actually start appearing outside casual matches.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
There was a reason why marines never had reroll saves because they get tons of 2+ and 3++ and FNP. Eldar just had 4+ and 3+'s on some things.

Now even the humble hammernators are 1/36 to kill with standard weapons and 1/9 to kill with Ap2. Not to mention if they then throw FNP into the mix or throwing in a libby conclave and rolling sanctuary.

Even guardsmen with a sang priest, libby conclave and azreal is just smacking your head against the wall.

It completely changes the meta for sure.

You are making the mistake of assuming that any thought at all was ever put into this. Marines never had reroll saves because they didn't. Eldar are perfectly capable of abusing fortune, but there's just even better things for them to abuse now. Like tabling lists in two turns. So no, there's no reason. Because GW doesn't make reasoned decisions. They vomit out random gak and people lap it up.

This is pretty much it, Eldar have their ways of utilizing 2+ saves of various sorts with rerolls, marines didn't get it just because nobody decided to do so, no different than any other faction.

So, Tigurius with Telepathy, a level 2 with Divinaion, and a level 2 with Librarius? Or should I say bollocks to divination now and go straight up Biomancy for endurance.

But my Ignore Cover and Rerolls to hit...

 Runic wrote:
The re-roll armour saves spell won't break the game much if at all, and every player who is well versed in the game knows this.

It will only make the already unkillable deathstars more unkillable, hardly changing anything. The same counters that worked on those before will continue to do so all the same.

Invisibility is still better/worse whichever way one wants to put it. Someones terminators re-rolling their saves is hardly a bad thing, maybe those will actually start appearing outside casual matches.

It rerolls all saves. Sanctuary + storm shields equals unkillable. I used to be able to kill the death stars, now I can't. It doesn't change the meta much, but it completely changes my ability to deal with the meta.

With the CSM rumours I thought, finally were getting a bit closer to the pack again, but this is just sad. As CSM we have the worst powers ever (Tzeentch is horrible), but now at least loyalist Space Marines, famous for their psychic power, get 28 new powers to reflect that their the "bestest at magicks".

With the likely unavoidable nerf to Tzeentch daemons relic for the 2++ rerolable I dont get how this happens. Really? Marines get the superinvul now? Over the god who can let his minions see the future? I thought we were getting over that part of the game.

The area I play in already over the top on power level, and at this rate I will have to get a titan to stay in it with CSM+FW traitor guard.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
With the CSM rumours I thought, finally were getting a bit closer to the pack again, but this is just sad. As CSM we have the worst powers ever (Tzeentch is horrible), but now at least loyalist Space Marines, famous for their psychic power, get 28 new powers to reflect that their the "bestest at magicks".

With the likely unavoidable nerf to Tzeentch daemons relic for the 2++ rerolable I dont get how this happens. Really? Marines get the superinvul now? Over the god who can let his minions see the future? I thought we were getting over that part of the game.

The area I play in already over the top on power level, and at this rate I will have to get a titan to stay in it with CSM+FW traitor guard.

Don't worry, those Loyalist players will likely now hand wave away everything by simply pointing out that CSM's just got re-printings of our two supplements, which include nothing new beyond a handful of useless formations and a single Psychic power that requires at least 400pts of Sorcerers just to access it.

Within a couple of weeks, I'm sure we'll be hearing the cries of "OMG! Chaos is soooooooo ****ing OP!!!11!1!!!1", because this one time, a squad of Gravcents turned around and shot a bike squad off the table.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
With the CSM rumours I thought, finally were getting a bit closer to the pack again, but this is just sad. As CSM we have the worst powers ever (Tzeentch is horrible), but now at least loyalist Space Marines, famous for their psychic power, get 28 new powers to reflect that their the "bestest at magicks".

With the likely unavoidable nerf to Tzeentch daemons relic for the 2++ rerolable I dont get how this happens. Really? Marines get the superinvul now? Over the god who can let his minions see the future? I thought we were getting over that part of the game.

The area I play in already over the top on power level, and at this rate I will have to get a titan to stay in it with CSM+FW traitor guard.

Don't worry, those Loyalist players will likely now hand wave away everything by simply pointing out that CSM's just got re-printings of our two supplements, which include nothing new beyond a handful of useless formations and a single Psychic power that requires at least 400pts of Sorcerers just to access it.

Within a couple of weeks, I'm sure we'll be hearing the cries of "OMG! Chaos is soooooooo ****ing OP!!!11!1!!!1", because this one time, a squad of Gravcents turned around and shot a bike squad off the table.

I would never complain like that, reasins...
1.CSM have been left in the dust the longest, its time they got something cool
2.I dont own Grav Cents
3.I dont own Bikes

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
With the CSM rumours I thought, finally were getting a bit closer to the pack again, but this is just sad. As CSM we have the worst powers ever (Tzeentch is horrible), but now at least loyalist Space Marines, famous for their psychic power, get 28 new powers to reflect that their the "bestest at magicks".

With the likely unavoidable nerf to Tzeentch daemons relic for the 2++ rerolable I dont get how this happens. Really? Marines get the superinvul now? Over the god who can let his minions see the future? I thought we were getting over that part of the game.

The area I play in already over the top on power level, and at this rate I will have to get a titan to stay in it with CSM+FW traitor guard.

Don't worry, those Loyalist players will likely now hand wave away everything by simply pointing out that CSM's just got re-printings of our two supplements, which include nothing new beyond a handful of useless formations and a single Psychic power that requires at least 400pts of Sorcerers just to access it.

Within a couple of weeks, I'm sure we'll be hearing the cries of "OMG! Chaos is soooooooo ****ing OP!!!11!1!!!1", because this one time, a squad of Gravcents turned around and shot a bike squad off the table.

Where is the Chaos whine thread when you need it!

But seriously, I'm more waiting for the Eldar tears about their D weapons being turned against them. :p

 Thairne wrote:
Could this make Terminators worthwhile again?

Deathwing Knights with a Librarian in TDA 2+/3++ rerollable?

Can... I can haz playable Deathwing? O_o

God I hope so!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw I know these are marine only powers, but after I take a look at them all, it's quite likely at my club we will be allowing all armies access, so long as it's not very clearly marine centric like "target a unit with atsknf"

 Formosa wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Could this make Terminators worthwhile again?

Deathwing Knights with a Librarian in TDA 2+/3++ rerollable?

Can... I can haz playable Deathwing? O_o

God I hope so!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw I know these are marine only powers, but after I take a look at them all, it's quite likely at my club we will be allowing all armies access, so long as it's not very clearly marine centric like "target a unit with atsknf"

Does your club let everyone access the two Eldar Psychic tables, or the Chaos psychic tables?

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Could this make Terminators worthwhile again?

Deathwing Knights with a Librarian in TDA 2+/3++ rerollable?

Can... I can haz playable Deathwing? O_o

God I hope so!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw I know these are marine only powers, but after I take a look at them all, it's quite likely at my club we will be allowing all armies access, so long as it's not very clearly marine centric like "target a unit with atsknf"

Does your club let everyone access the two Eldar Psychic tables, or the Chaos psychic tables?

Of course not, because they are clearly geared towards there respective factions, and.if this is, we will carry on normal, but if they are generic then we will just consider them as extra psy disciplines, more variety is a good thing to us, we will also open them up to Legion armies, tis our club, we can do what ever We think is fun :-D

I'll certainly be looking to get them accepted for my legion armies, and will probably suggest all but the Librarius (The really only marine-centric one by the sound of it) be available to at the VERY least CSM.

This power is nothing compared to S:1+D6 Ap- blast

 Formosa wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Could this make Terminators worthwhile again?

Deathwing Knights with a Librarian in TDA 2+/3++ rerollable?

Can... I can haz playable Deathwing? O_o

God I hope so!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw I know these are marine only powers, but after I take a look at them all, it's quite likely at my club we will be allowing all armies access, so long as it's not very clearly marine centric like "target a unit with atsknf"

Does your club let everyone access the two Eldar Psychic tables, or the Chaos psychic tables?

Of course not, because they are clearly geared towards there respective factions, and.if this is, we will carry on normal, but if they are generic then we will just consider them as extra psy disciplines, more variety is a good thing to us, we will also open them up to Legion armies, tis our club, we can do what ever We think is fun :-D

Whats good for one group isn't good for another, hmm?

Of course, I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy.

Now that i think about it
Can Legiones Astartes use the new powers?

commander dante wrote:
Now that i think about it
Can Legiones Astartes use the new powers?

A very good question, one of which I will excitedly wait for Forgeworld's answer on. Personally, I'm going to assume that they can use all 4, but I suggest waiting to see before using them outside of friendly games

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Could this make Terminators worthwhile again?

Deathwing Knights with a Librarian in TDA 2+/3++ rerollable?

Can... I can haz playable Deathwing? O_o

God I hope so!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw I know these are marine only powers, but after I take a look at them all, it's quite likely at my club we will be allowing all armies access, so long as it's not very clearly marine centric like "target a unit with atsknf"

Does your club let everyone access the two Eldar Psychic tables, or the Chaos psychic tables?

Of course not, because they are clearly geared towards there respective factions, and.if this is, we will carry on normal, but if they are generic then we will just consider them as extra psy disciplines, more variety is a good thing to us, we will also open them up to Legion armies, tis our club, we can do what ever We think is fun :-D

Whats good for one group isn't good for another, hmm?

Of course, I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy.

What hypocrisy? There is none, chaos powers are clearly chaos, Eldar are clearly eldar, deamons etc.

These ones from what we have seen so far are very generic, so explain to me, what is so marine about casting thunder bolts? There are plenty of examples of Chaos, orks and Eldar doing it, and why can't eldar use earth based psy powers, or shall I just bow down to the marine elitism?

Nope I think not, I see no good reason these powers can't be used by others books, and yes, we do allow normal marines to use chaos powers, to represent renegade chapters, we like to play casually for the fluff, not treat the rulebook as a cast iron tome, which I see as a lot of people's problems in 40k, this is after all, the house rule edition.

commander dante wrote:
Now that i think about it
Can Legiones Astartes use the new powers?

They shouldn't. Pre-Heresy they would have been products of Magnus' librarius project, and I don't recall the Thousand Sons having a Magister Templi of Geokinesis, do you?

Well I think me and my buddy are going to houserule this power as not existing. He hates me using Orikanstar in under 5k games so this is just out of the question.

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
Well I think me and my buddy are going to houserule this power as not existing. He hates me using Orikanstar in under 5k games so this is just out of the question.

Same. I have people saying that its not that powerful just because the eldar one exists

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
Well I think me and my buddy are going to houserule this power as not existing. He hates me using Orikanstar in under 5k games so this is just out of the question.

Same. I have people saying that its not that powerful just because the eldar one exists

Which just shows their stupidity and ignorance. Eldar don't have easy access or spamable 2+/3++ FNP where as imperials have dozens. Really the only thing that fortune was a problem on was back when you could take the Baron and the jetstar but that's been dead since 6th. Plus eldar don't have the libby conclave casting on 2+. Really the only saving grace of Veil is that its one cast per unit and the power only works on the libby and his unit.

Its sad there is legit prejudice against Eldar armies and players. Why learn to play and adapt when you can just blame your problems on something else?

Well, half of the armies can't win against even an unoptimized Eldar, Tau, GSF, daemons, ect force, but yes the prejudice against the players as a group is a bit ridiculous.

Edited by Moderator

Again, was talking about those codeses (Orks, solo DE, Solo BA, IG, ect.) who CANNOT do those four thing effectively, but sure.

There's also the ever so minor detail that not everyone enjoys, or even wants to always be forced to play 'balls to the walls' "Tournament"hammer...

I have no problems with Eldar players who have the courtesy to adapt their list and come down a good bit to the level that Chaos is forced to play at. (especially CSM's)
I have serious problems with those who outright refuse to ever play anything except for the most highly optimised, cheddar-laced list possible, even when they're going up against a crippled bottom feeding codex like CSM's, and instead insist that the player with no options just has to "man-up" and "L2P/Git Gud".

 Swampmist wrote:
Again, was talking about those codeses (Orks, solo DE, Solo BA, IG, ect.) who CANNOT do those four thing effectively, but sure.

well to be fair, orks have the ability rapidly capture objectives, we just have very little staying power once we get there. as for the other 3 things? yeah basically zero ranged firepower ignores cover saves. I would have to shoot my entire army at a wraithknight and then assault it with several nobz with Powerklaws to even have a chance of killing one in a turn. And as far as countering/containing invisibility....can't counter it, and the only way to contain it is to throw units at it until it runs out of steam, not really a good tactical move :p

Ravenous D, Instead of taking up this L2P tone that pretty much everybody else agrees is a symptom of TFG, you could always shelf your SM and your eldar and try running with the have nots (mono Orks, DE, BA or AM) for a few months. That way you might come to the conclusion that it's not that simple and folks like Martel aren't just blowing hot air OR if you don't want to jeopardize your win /loss ratio you could always slap him on the ignore list.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
D, Instead of taking up this L2P tone that pretty much everybody else agrees is a symptom of TFG, you could always shelf your SM and your eldar and try running with the have nots (mono Orks, DE, BA or AM) for a few months. That way you might come to the conclusion that it's not that simple and folks like Martel aren't just blowing hot air OR if you don't want to jeopardize your w/lords ratio you could always slap him on the ignore list.

first things first, I love your name

secondly, I have a good friend who plays eldar. He is in a similar circumstance as me, meaning he can't afford to go buy a completely new army because his is OP cheese. On the other hand I know for a fact he didn't pick Eldar to be cheese, everything we do he is always the stupid elves so I don't fault him for going for Space Elves. With that said, his favorite models were seriously OP, he loves scat bikes, wraithknigths and those stupid transports for his Guardians which are his other love. So a lot of cheese. In order for him to understand what it felt like to have to play against that we switched armies for a few weeks. After handful of games where I utterly steam rolled him in the first 2-3 turns he realized he wasn't the best general in the world it was his army doing most of the heavy lifting. Since then he has limited himself to only using small numbers of scat bikes, at most 1 wraithknight a game (usually none) and since then our games have become a lot more intense and fun for both of us.

So in conclusion, switching to a have not army is a really good way to learn how the other side feels

SemperMortis, Thx for the kudos.

Yea that's definitely what I meant. I seriously doubt many folks have several hundred to drop on temporary minis to experiment with. I was suggesting an army swap with one of the poor four(tm) assuming one of the folks at his local gaming establishment runs them and is cool with it.

"Yeah right. You've spent the last year jumping into every eldar thread to piss and moan how you cant win with your blood angels and when a bunch of people tried to tell you how to change your list you gave us nothing your own personally restrictions as your sorry excuse for an argument. You blame everyone else for YOUR problems.

So maybe instead of reporting people that criticize you, maybe you should play the game and stop putting yourself into a restrictive box of self imposed delusional problems and projecting your issues and prejudice on your betters. "

Translation: you can't win with them either. You're the kinda guy that kicks around bronze players with a Void Ray build and then is mystified when you start losing to people that actually scout your base.

I'm not giving GW money, and I shouldn't have to. It would be like Blizzard releasing DLC units that were OP compared to the original ones.

Keep posting. It amuses me.

Welp. I'm out. See you guys in 30k where the rules work.

Edited by Moderator

Not that I normally defend people or anything, because I'd rather them do it themselves, but just to report...

... refusing to use allies or drop pods is fine. It isn't mental illness or delusion - it's how one wants to build one's army. You know, creative freedom. Like, for example, my Mechanicum, who don't field Tech-Thralls because, unlike most Forge Worlds, they lack an inexhaustible supply of manpower.

And auspexes are, if not useless, kind of stupid. They would be better if they worked on units not within 12" - if a unit is within, say, 8", I'll probably charge it and kill it in assault, and if it's outside of 12", an auspex is useless anyways.

Meltaguns are useless, depending on your meta. They work on vehicles very well, but they're comparatively useless against MCs and things with high and on-demand coversaves... that is to say, they're useless against the modern meta.

No need to defend. His posts are awesome.

Based on what he has said; Martel plays in a highly competative meta that has an apparent "bring your list in and play with whoever" policy, meaning he needs to bring a TAC list every night withought an incling of what his opponents will bring. I suspect more than one of his usual opponents play Tau, which pod-heavy forces are hard countered by.

 Swampmist wrote:
Based on what he has said; Martel plays in a highly competative meta that has an apparent "bring your list in and play with whoever" policy, meaning he needs to bring a TAC list every night withought an incling of what his opponents will bring. I suspect more than one of his usual opponents play Tau, which pod-heavy forces are hard countered by.

It would be perfectly fair, except, you know, GW happened.

Yeah at this point I am basically done with 40k until something drastic changes.

I will continue to play my 30k armies, though I may play them less and less against 40k armies as I flee from these shenanigans.

10,000 years ago, things were simpler...

Yeah, because apparently everyone was the same.

Marines are my least-favorite aspect of 40k and that's basically what 30k revolves around. Just sounds boring to me. Your only non-Marine choices are steampunk Guard and Ad Mech and I'm not really into that, either.

 Ravenous D wrote:


Eldar are a thing, as are their bikes, if you're playing in an event not preparing to beat eldar is counter intuitive. I keep repeating this but if you can do the following you're fine at tournaments and against eldar

1) Ignore cover
2) Kill 1 or more wraith or imperial knights a turn
3) Counter or contain invisibility
4) rapid objective taking

Yes you keep repeating this and then not responding when people point out the many armies don't have these abilities, especially not all at once...

Most armies don't have gobs of ignores cover weapons, and even when they potentially do, they aren't better than AP4 or 5, and may have to give up other crucial abilities to take them. Likewise, killing a Knight of any kind in a single round of shooting is beyond the ability of even many gunline armies. My DKoK Assault Brigade with half a dozen Lascannons and a full complement of BS4 S9 AP2 Twin-Linked Rapier Laser Destroyers can jut barely average a dead WK in one turn...assuming I get first turn and that the Wraithknight has no cover or invul save or any enhancements to FNP or the like and dump every bit of firepower at it that can potentially hurt it and not shoot anything else with my entire long range AT contingent, and I'm certainly not slaying an IK a turn outright either. As for invisibility, again, not every army has answers or access to this. Likewise, rapid objective taking, not every army can do this, or at least do it effectively, especially if they want to do any of those other things on the list.

Boy, Adamantium Will sure makes up for not being able to take Librarians! Yup, I sure am happy with that trade-off.

You knew what you were getting into when you picked Black Templar, especially if you are one of the Black Templar players that have been around forever.

I hate to put a cigarette out in the open wound, but I don't think BT are in this supplement are they?

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I hate to put a cigarette out in the open wound, but I don't think BT are in this supplement are they?

They get their Warlord Trait table from the White Dwarf, according to the preview.

 Crazyterran wrote:
You knew what you were getting into when you picked Black Templar, especially if you are one of the Black Templar players that have been around forever.

You mean back when we actually got other rules to compensate and the psychic phase didn't even exist? Please, do go on.

A lot of doom and gloom in this thread as well as people threatening to leave 40k and some of the anti Eldar hate movement coming out at the end there... that's a sad state of affairs.

To put this in perspective, with having to roll for psychic makes gunning for these powers a pretty hefty investment. Now from personal experience I like to run a little Wraithblade deathstar the relies on getting GoI, Sanctuary and Hammerhand with 3 farseers including Eldrad Ulthran, thats 10 mastery levels (rerolling duplicate powers) and it not a certain thing getting the powers you want. In fact I needed to throw in another farseer (2 -> 3) to get GOI reliably! I can do this because I'm only flooding 1 table with mastery levels, the Marine's issue is that they want Sanctuary, Veil of Time and invisibility - 3 powers from 3 separate tables...even with a conclave and 10 mastery levels thats not going to go well most of the time.

Now lets say they wanted deathstar Thunderwolf cavalry and decide to spam for veil of time, thats a very powerful unit with 3+ rerollable saves but is it any more resilient than the other thunder cav deathstars we have been seeing with invisibility and FNP?

In anycase Celuxus assassins in drop pods will still take a bite out of deathstars like this and probably wont be something you will ever see on a friendly table;and for those of us that do encounter it then it'll be par for the course and we'll have dealt with stuff like this before.

So I suppose all I'm saying is keep calm and wait until the book drops to gauge how powerful these combos are and (perhaps more importantly) how practical they are to pull off.

No Eldar hate, just a bit of backlash that the low tier codices can't do much against them, which we all realize already . Marines (except BT, sorry guys...) can certainly deal with them with a small bit of forethought, and that is also not in despute. But yes, Im honestly expecting Librarius to be... Unimpressive other than Veil.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Boy, Adamantium Will sure makes up for not being able to take Librarians! Yup, I sure am happy with that trade-off.

Could you take a Librarius Conclave as an allied detachment?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
You knew what you were getting into when you picked Black Templar, especially if you are one of the Black Templar players that have been around forever.

You mean back when we actually got other rules to compensate and the psychic phase didn't even exist? Please, do go on.

Freaking ninja'd .
Agreed, I feel the rage of having my guess weapons taken from me then returned almost decades later as well.
Black Templar came into being when assault was awesome and psychic powers were "nice to have".
There is little to compensate other than maybe we still get to have the 20-man squads or the 5 man heavy weapon squads.
I am assuming the vows remain as a story in the fluff than an actual rule.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Yeah, because apparently everyone was the same.

Marines are my least-favorite aspect of 40k and that's basically what 30k revolves around. Just sounds boring to me. Your only non-Marine choices are steampunk Guard and Ad Mech and I'm not really into that, either.

And that's why you play 40k and not 30k. Works out in the end.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Boy, Adamantium Will sure makes up for not being able to take Librarians! Yup, I sure am happy with that trade-off.

Could you take a Librarius Conclave as an allied detachment?

That'd be entirely possible, but why would I then not just play whatever Chapter that is in the first place?

Hmm, I missed the discussions about kharn ALWAYS denying the witch on a 2+, though I imagine people decried it bollocks. But ... would that even be considered broken a this point? Between 2++ rerollables and 2+ warp charges and potentially increasing armour values and free transports? Seems like a drip in the ocean comparatively speaking.

So the new Librarius powers are up:

Primaris is a witchfire
1 - WC2, reroll armor save (psyker and his unit)
2 - WC1 beam, 20"
3 - WC1 blessing, targets the psyker. Gives fearless, AW. Give a 4+ invulnerable bubble of 12"........ against witchfire power only.
4 - WC1 targets the psyker. +2 S, T, I and A.
5 - WC1 roll 2D6+ level against enemy psyker 1D6+level. On a draw or better, enemy lose 1W (no save), if you rolled way more than him he loses a power.
6 - WC2 1 enemy unit, 24". -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone


Talk about a giant middle finger to Daemons... There's exactly 1 crappy power there - the Beam, (though we don't even know the stats yet), but overall, that's fething ugly.

Tzeentch is royally screwed between armour save re-rolls, Ad Will, 4++ vs. Witchfires, AND, the fact Daemons have crappy Ld vs. the nearly automatic 'lose a random power'. Also, any Daemon that lands Invis is going to be prime target no.1 for that power. (Ld8 Slaheralds & L9 DP's/Kipper's beware!)
Nullzone is back, and perfectly counters our Grimoire, while also cancelling out Cursed Earth/Forewarning's boost.

I swear, I'm going to start smacking people with a dreadsock if I hear anymore whining about Chaos being OP. We've nothing outside of FW that comes close to the levels of rank cheddar Marines now get!
Hell, we're THE super Deep Strike army of the game, and we don't even get assault from DS, yet those precious little Mehreeens get it, because... "screw Chaos!" is now seemingly GW's new motto.

Experiment 626 wrote:
So the new Librarius powers are up:

Primaris is a witchfire
1 - WC2, reroll armor save (psyker and his unit)
2 - WC1 beam, 20"
3 - WC1 blessing, targets the psyker. Gives fearless, AW. Give a 4+ invulnerable bubble of 12"........ against witchfire power only.
4 - WC1 targets the psyker. +2 S, T, I and A.
5 - WC1 roll 2D6+ level against enemy psyker 1D6+level. On a draw or better, enemy lose 1W (no save), if you rolled way more than him he loses a power.
6 - WC2 1 enemy unit, 24". -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone


Talk about a giant middle finger to Daemons... There's exactly 1 crappy power there - the Beam, (though we don't even know the stats yet), but overall, that's fething ugly.

Tzeentch is royally screwed between armour save re-rolls, Ad Will, 4++ vs. Witchfires, AND, the fact Daemons have crappy Ld vs. the nearly automatic 'lose a random power'. Also, any Daemon that lands Invis is going to be prime target no.1 for that power. (Ld8 Slaheralds & L9 DP's/Kipper's beware!)
Nullzone is back, and perfectly counters our Grimoire, while also cancelling out Cursed Earth/Forewarning's boost.

I swear, I'm going to start smacking people with a dreadsock if I hear anymore whining about Chaos being OP. We've nothing outside of FW that comes close to the levels of rank cheddar Marines now get!
Hell, we're THE super Deep Strike army of the game, and we don't even get assault from DS, yet those precious little Mehreeens get it, because... "screw Chaos!" is now seemingly GW's new motto.

Now all you have to do is post this in a YMDC thread and you'll have completed Dakka Repeat Post Bingo!

Experiment 626 wrote:
So the new Librarius powers are up:

Primaris is a witchfire
1 - WC2, reroll armor save (psyker and his unit)
2 - WC1 beam, 20"
3 - WC1 blessing, targets the psyker. Gives fearless, AW. Give a 4+ invulnerable bubble of 12"........ against witchfire power only.
4 - WC1 targets the psyker. +2 S, T, I and A.
5 - WC1 roll 2D6+ level against enemy psyker 1D6+level. On a draw or better, enemy lose 1W (no save), if you rolled way more than him he loses a power.
6 - WC2 1 enemy unit, 24". -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone


Talk about a giant middle finger to Daemons... There's exactly 1 crappy power there - the Beam, (though we don't even know the stats yet), but overall, that's fething ugly.

Tzeentch is royally screwed between armour save re-rolls, Ad Will, 4++ vs. Witchfires, AND, the fact Daemons have crappy Ld vs. the nearly automatic 'lose a random power'. Also, any Daemon that lands Invis is going to be prime target no.1 for that power. (Ld8 Slaheralds & L9 DP's/Kipper's beware!)
Nullzone is back, and perfectly counters our Grimoire, while also cancelling out Cursed Earth/Forewarning's boost.

I swear, I'm going to start smacking people with a dreadsock if I hear anymore whining about Chaos being OP. We've nothing outside of FW that comes close to the levels of rank cheddar Marines now get!
Hell, we're THE super Deep Strike army of the game, and we don't even get assault from DS, yet those precious little Mehreeens get it, because... "screw Chaos!" is now seemingly GW's new motto.

Team 2++ rerollable crying about the #6 power? The 4++ witch fire is pointless, as Librarius will be a second or third librarian tree to roll on, since most Conclaves go with a Deathstar (which tend to have a tank to soak or access to better invulns) - they have more important things to fish for. Lose a random power means that you have a 1/4 or 1/3 chance of losing invisibility, which does suck, admittedly, but you can always keep the herald far enough away until it is too late (of course, no range was posted - what's the range on mind war?)

I mean, it's not a marine thread without Chaos players crying, so...

Experiment 626 wrote:
So the new Librarius powers are up:

Primaris is a witchfire
1 - WC2, reroll armor save (psyker and his unit)
2 - WC1 beam, 20"
3 - WC1 blessing, targets the psyker. Gives fearless, AW. Give a 4+ invulnerable bubble of 12"........ against witchfire power only.
4 - WC1 targets the psyker. +2 S, T, I and A.
5 - WC1 roll 2D6+ level against enemy psyker 1D6+level. On a draw or better, enemy lose 1W (no save), if you rolled way more than him he loses a power.
6 - WC2 1 enemy unit, 24". -2 to invul saves (min 6+). This is the new nullzone


Talk about a giant middle finger to Daemons... There's exactly 1 crappy power there - the Beam, (though we don't even know the stats yet), but overall, that's fething ugly.

Tzeentch is royally screwed between armour save re-rolls, Ad Will, 4++ vs. Witchfires, AND, the fact Daemons have crappy Ld vs. the nearly automatic 'lose a random power'. Also, any Daemon that lands Invis is going to be prime target no.1 for that power. (Ld8 Slaheralds & L9 DP's/Kipper's beware!)
Nullzone is back, and perfectly counters our Grimoire, while also cancelling out Cursed Earth/Forewarning's boost.

I swear, I'm going to start smacking people with a dreadsock if I hear anymore whining about Chaos being OP. We've nothing outside of FW that comes close to the levels of rank cheddar Marines now get!
Hell, we're THE super Deep Strike army of the game, and we don't even get assault from DS, yet those precious little Mehreeens get it, because... "screw Chaos!" is now seemingly GW's new motto.

....wut?...I....wut? I am at a loss of words. I guess that's GW's way of telling us that we are indeed collectors. Cuz there's not much of a game left it seems.

Librarius and Technomancy are the big winners here. Librarius comes out on top due to the save shenanigans, but making a Warlord Titan AV16 is kinda funny with Technomancy. Also taking control of vehicles and making them blow each other up is funny. Make a knight shoot his allies up!

Screamerstar only requires around 800pts of investment, and is really only good at never, ever dying... It's not a close combat monster, and 7th nerfed the ever living crap out of it's ranged potential.
On the other hand, I guess it's perfectly fair & balanced that Loyalists can now run re-roll saves Thunderwolf deathstars, or re-rollable Smashfether + friends, or re-rollable Gravcents, etc, etc...

Loyalists are easily now just below Eldar tier.

Daemons were one of the few gems left to Chaos, now Marines get to gak all over them at will, while also being leagues better at our own strengths than we are.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Screamerstar only requires around 800pts of investment, and is really only good at never, ever dying... It's not a close combat monster, and 7th nerfed the ever living crap out of it's ranged potential.
On the other hand, I guess it's perfectly fair & balanced that Loyalists can now run re-roll saves Thunderwolf deathstars, or re-rollable Smashfether + friends, or re-rollable Gravcents, etc, etc...

Loyalists are easily now just below Eldar tier.

Daemons were one of the few gems left to Chaos, now Marines get to gak all over them at will, while also being leagues better at our own strengths than we are.

Let's not forget that they can't have all of that. But I agree, it's nuts.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Screamerstar only requires around 800pts of investment, and is really only good at never, ever dying... It's not a close combat monster, and 7th nerfed the ever living crap out of it's ranged potential.
On the other hand, I guess it's perfectly fair & balanced that Loyalists can now run re-roll saves Thunderwolf deathstars, or re-rollable Smashfether + friends, or re-rollable Gravcents, etc, etc...

Loyalists are easily now just below Eldar tier.

Daemons were one of the few gems left to Chaos, now Marines get to gak all over them at will, while also being leagues better at our own strengths than we are.

I'm getting so tired, just thinking about going to my local GW and the amount of SM players playing there is enough to take out the fun. Doesn't help that every time they get buffs the response is "but Chaos" . Yes, I run Tzeentch CSM and Daemons (no screamerstar) together, I'm full on OMGWTFBBQ WAAC just because my codex says Chaos and it had a few gimmicks a few years ago (remember the Heldrake, people still can't drop it yet its been collecting dust ever since the FAQ). People are surprised to even play against Daemons around here, why? Because everyone runs some sort of Eldar, Tau or SM combination with FW and formations, anything less doesn't even register.

Most people on Dakka seem to get that this is crazy. Depressingly, the ones running around at the local club/GW are the ones posting pictures of tear jars here

Personally I still think Daemons will be good, but yeah these are freaking nuts. Personally, I'm going to ask around at the stores I play at to see if they'll be willing to allow CSM Sorcerers to roll on all but librarius, as the other three really don't need to be marine specific. Librarius does seem to be the "Emperor's discipline" though, so it seems like the only one that makes sense to leave for the marines.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Screamerstar only requires around 800pts of investment, and is really only good at never, ever dying... It's not a close combat monster, and 7th nerfed the ever living crap out of it's ranged potential.
On the other hand, I guess it's perfectly fair & balanced that Loyalists can now run re-roll saves Thunderwolf deathstars, or re-rollable Smashfether + friends, or re-rollable Gravcents, etc, etc...

Loyalists are easily now just below Eldar tier.

Daemons were one of the few gems left to Chaos, now Marines get to gak all over them at will, while also being leagues better at our own strengths than we are.

Well thats the fault of the screamerstar, they are clearly to cheap. The Ghazghkull Death Star (Waaagh Council) is around a 1,100 point investment once you optimize it out with good CC weapons and a transport. So therefore clearly the screamerstar should pay another 300-400 points to be useful....wait... the Ghaz death star isn't useful and is only a gimmick at best. Damn it never mind.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Screamerstar only requires around 800pts of investment, and is really only good at never, ever dying... It's not a close combat monster, and 7th nerfed the ever living crap out of it's ranged potential.
On the other hand, I guess it's perfectly fair & balanced that Loyalists can now run re-roll saves Thunderwolf deathstars, or re-rollable Smashfether + friends, or re-rollable Gravcents, etc, etc...

Loyalists are easily now just below Eldar tier.

Daemons were one of the few gems left to Chaos, now Marines get to gak all over them at will, while also being leagues better at our own strengths than we are.

I'm getting so tired, just thinking about going to my local GW and the amount of SM players playing there is enough to take out the fun. Doesn't help that every time they get buffs the response is "but Chaos" . Yes, I run Tzeentch CSM and Daemons (no screamerstar) together, I'm full on OMGWTFBBQ WAAC just because my codex says Chaos and it had a few gimmicks a few years ago (remember the Heldrake, people still can't drop it yet its been collecting dust ever since the FAQ). People are surprised to even play against Daemons around here, why? Because everyone runs some sort of Eldar, Tau or SM combination with FW and formations, anything less doesn't even register.

Most people on Dakka seem to get that this is crazy. Depressingly, the ones running around at the local club/GW are the ones posting pictures of tear jars here

Oh, it's crazy, but I don't have much sympathy for Daemons players after the Incursion/Wulfen book came out, and the forums lit up with ridiculous things Daemons can do. And I own Daemons! I have a Khorne Daemons list that is silly about how aggressive is, and Khorne is one of the bottom two gods in that Codex.

I mean, the power of summoning can't be over stated - there's a reason that Daemons are a #1 army, and regularly win tournaments.

Mono-CSM, on the other hand... I can have sympathy for that. Not quite enough to break RAW, unless it's something flavorful like Iron Warriors going on Technomancy.

timidly. . .

 carldooley wrote:
timidly. . .

Spoiler:

maybe tau players will get some slack now?

Haaaa. no. Tau and eldar will NEVER get any slack thanks to them being able to effectively kill da spess murrenz, regardless of how the power levels shift.

Im just going to grab my own tear jar and start collecting. I mean a lot of the other Chaos players cry louder and more often than anybody else even though we have a book that's old and overpriced but still perfectly playable. To look at it any other way is just headsplitting. Out of the Librarius tree 1, 5, and 6 are useful. The rest meh. That puts this tree about on par with biomancy, maybe telepathy. Any I'll bet my entire stack of chips that none of you play in a meta where this will be a game changer. I understand the frustration of being neglected but at least we still have the tools to deal with pretty much anything but tournament level cheese. With Demons we can (and do) run our own tournament level cheese.

I mean one of the army's gets a partial (not even a hard counter) to our cheddar list and I'm reading cries of anti chaos. I hate to break it, but there are other armies that have it a lot worse than we do and their players don't derail threads with a waahmbulance. You cry about screemer star taking a hit by a power that a, libby has a 1/3 chance of getting That's cute because dantestar is just as expensive but literally unplayable. And Ghazgkull Waagh council is 300 points more and still crap, even before you factor in anything else. Im.sorry guys, we had our turn in 3.5 and 6th. The world turns (excepting eldar being as they are always no. 1).

Just gonna cast the +1 Armour and 3+ Invun on my Librarian Dreadnought, nothing to see here....

commander dante wrote:
Just gonna cast the +1 Armour and 3+ Invun on my Librarian Dreadnought, nothing to see here....

If you roll it that is...

Dantes_Baals wrote:
we had our turn in 3.5 and 6th.

In 6th there was Hellpigeon abuse, black mace and few other things (the usual nurgle used now, because there is nothing else, almost) . All stuff that went out of businness after the power level of the edition ramped up, leaving CSM and DA in the dust.

Moreover, one could argue that a CSM book should work for 4 gods and undivided, not for one god and half and have countless useless units from day 1. Few overpowered, poorly thought combos that become obsolete some month later do not justify the impossibility of using 75% of the codex. A codex is not a good codex when allows 1-2 combos to be the king of the hill for a while. A good codex has decent amount of fluff, fluff and mechanics matching, and different ways to build an army that is good if well played but not overpowered.

At the moment, I cannot think about a GW codex checking all the boxes, actually.

So, no; CSM did not "have their turn" in 6th. 6th edition codex was ill-conceived, full of randumb ideas. I fear Kelly was forced to put it out incomplete, as a sort of draft. But they had to churn it out (DA as well) because of Dark Vengeance.

I say it loud: Dark Vengeance ruined CSM.

I'd argue for the first half of 6th until Tau or SM came out, but feel free to disagree. We were doing just fine until Taudar came out and even then the book was nothing to sneeze at. Especially with Demons or necrons allied. Speaking of Demons in 6th, no right to complain. At. All. There were only 3 mono CSM builds that could hold their own in the latter half of 6th, but again, most books couldn't manage that. I just feel like way too many CSM folks are complaining about their bronze age swords while a mess of others have to make do with rusty, horribly crafted steel batons. And I whole heartedly agree that 6th was a God awful mess in general though.

I wonder how the access is granted specifically. Will Sevrin (FW - Red Scorpions) be able to pick from one of the new lists?

nekooni wrote:
I wonder how the access is granted specifically. Will Sevrin (FW - Red Scorpions) be able to pick from one of the new lists?

No, but then again, those downloads were for 6th edition. I'm 95% sure FW will get around to updating them, either online or via Badab War v2.

 Frozocrone wrote:

nekooni wrote:
I wonder how the access is granted specifically. Will Sevrin (FW - Red Scorpions) be able to pick from one of the new lists?

No, but then again, those downloads were for 6th edition. I'm 95% sure FW will get around to updating them, either online or via Badab War v2.

Do we have the wording for how access is granted to the new lists in general?

I'm willing to bet Sevrin loses his ability to pick whenever they update the Badab book(s).

But since Loth has different access to abilities than normal Marine Librarians, it can't be assumed he has access to the new stuff until it's specified otherwise by FW, or house ruled by whatever tournament FAQ you use. :p

As ever I still can't understand why people think the Chaos book sucks. I still see it winning games against the ''top-tier'' armies like Necrons and Space Marines.

I mean, just last night I got stomped by Chaos Marines. I was playing Space Marines. My Land Raider got blown up on Turn 1, the Hammernators inside got weakened by a Nurgle Psyker on Turn Two and were shot to death. A Nurgle Mace Prince slaughtered half my army without me being able to do anything to it. Noise Marines slaughtered the rest. My opponent didn't even use a Helldrake in his list.

You brought a Landraider and Hammernators. Not exactly an optimized list.

 Swampmist wrote:
You brought a Landraider and Hammernators. Not exactly an optimized list.

Wait you can play 40k without going full ham and have fun?

*shock, horror*

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
You brought a Landraider and Hammernators. Not exactly an optimized list.

Wait you can play 40k without going full ham and have fun?

*shock, horror*

I like how you completely ignore the context of his post, construct a strawman, and then argue against something that's completely irrelevant to anything regarding the discussion. Good job!

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Im just going to grab my own tear jar and start collecting. I mean a lot of the other Chaos players cry louder and more often than anybody else even though we have a book that's old and overpriced but still perfectly playable. To look at it any other way is just headsplitting. Out of the Librarius tree 1, 5, and 6 are useful. The rest meh. That puts this tree about on par with biomancy, maybe telepathy. Any I'll bet my entire stack of chips that none of you play in a meta where this will be a game changer. I understand the frustration of being neglected but at least we still have the tools to deal with pretty much anything but tournament level cheese. With Demons we can (and do) run our own tournament level cheese.

I mean one of the army's gets a partial (not even a hard counter) to our cheddar list and I'm reading cries of anti chaos. I hate to break it, but there are other armies that have it a lot worse than we do and their players don't derail threads with a waahmbulance. You cry about screemer star taking a hit by a power that a, libby has a 1/3 chance of getting That's cute because dantestar is just as expensive but literally unplayable. And Ghazgkull Waagh council is 300 points more and still crap, even before you factor in anything else. Im.sorry guys, we had our turn in 3.5 and 6th. The world turns (excepting eldar being as they are always no. 1).

Marines get a power that negates the biggest effect of what is easily our most obnoxious ability. Great, so what about for the vast majority of us who don't run the most abusive crap our book allows for?

Librarius powers make Marines into a win-button vs. Daemons that aren't optimising...
Tzeentch is royally screwed, being reduced to Flamers/Exalt Flamers/Chariots/Grinders for shooting now.
Librarians are almost guaranteed to remove our powers if/when landing that spell, while at worst they likely remove the casting ability of a psyker for a turn. (unless they roll snake eyes, or a 1,2/2,1 on their 2D6 vs. D6 roll)
Combine the -2 invuln save power with GK's and/or Santic in general (which synergises well because Sanctuary + Veil = super cheddar) and marines can now remove every single invuln bonus Daemons get access to.

Sure, it's not 5th ed Warp Quake levels of pants-on-head stupid, but it's getting close.

I'm actually kinda disappointed with this release. There are a lot of cool powers like the moving terrain, moving people, -2 on invuln saves, but I know most of these are gonna be ignored and people are just gonna take the 1 or 2 super strong ones, like Telepathy and Iron Arm.

I'm going to go for that tech one so I can move my opponent into charge range T1. I already see the possiblites.

Get the swap? Put Draigo and Purifiers into the enemy deploy and charge his swapped unit with your own guys. Cleansing flame for bonus points.

Get the Magnet? Pull the fools into no man's land.

I'm gonna be having fun.

 Thud wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
You brought a Landraider and Hammernators. Not exactly an optimized list.

Wait you can play 40k without going full ham and have fun?

*shock, horror*

I like how you completely ignore the context of his post, construct a strawman, and then argue against something that's completely irrelevant to anything regarding the discussion. Good job!

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Gree wrote:
As ever I still can't understand why people think the Chaos book sucks. I still see it winning games against the ''top-tier'' armies like Necrons and Space Marines.

I mean, just last night I got stomped by Chaos Marines. I was playing Space Marines. My Land Raider got blown up on Turn 1, the Hammernators inside got weakened by a Nurgle Psyker on Turn Two and were shot to death. A Nurgle Mace Prince slaughtered half my army without me being able to do anything to it. Noise Marines slaughtered the rest. My opponent didn't even use a Helldrake in his list.

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists.

Note: in my Ork army, I take 6 Killa Kanz. It's not an optimized list.

killa kans with grotzooka is not that bad

Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

Imperial fortune is fine and dandy but it seems the real power comes from moving terrain and units to proc off a T1 charge and assassinate units piecemeal

 Xenomancers wrote:
killa kans with grotzooka is not that bad

I'm going to assume your joking. Against a fluffy list? Sure. Against an optimized list? Yeah right. One shaken or stun and you're screwed. Also, don't forget, they can shake themselves! due to the Cowardly Grots rule. Also, they're only AV 10, HP 2. They ain't scaring no one. Rokkits or Big Shoota are the only way to go, at least you can Snap shoot those.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
killa kans with grotzooka is not that bad

I'm going to assume your joking. Against a fluffy list? Sure. Against an optimized list? Yeah right. One shaken or stun and you're screwed. Also, don't forget, they can shake themselves! due to the Cowardly Grots rule. Also, they're only AV 10, HP 2. They ain't scaring no one. Rokkits or Big Shoota are the only way to go, at least you can Snap shoot those.

AV11, give the Kans of alien beans their proper due. Also Grotzookas throw out a lot of high strength blasts which can drop buckets of hits on the enemy. Shaken results hurt but only the one who took the hit, not the rest of the squadron. Cowardly Grot is a terrible rule which stinks but snap shooting Rokkits or Big Shootas isn't much better. The problem with all of these is that they are guns on a dinky walker squadron but if you where so inclined to bring Kanz them then Grotzookas are the only worth while weapon to give them. Grot Tanks are the better Grotzooka delivery system all things considered though.

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

 Vankraken wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
killa kans with grotzooka is not that bad

I'm going to assume your joking. Against a fluffy list? Sure. Against an optimized list? Yeah right. One shaken or stun and you're screwed. Also, don't forget, they can shake themselves! due to the Cowardly Grots rule. Also, they're only AV 10, HP 2. They ain't scaring no one. Rokkits or Big Shoota are the only way to go, at least you can Snap shoot those.

AV11, give the Kans of alien beans their proper due. Also Grotzookas throw out a lot of high strength blasts which can drop buckets of hits on the enemy. Shaken results hurt but only the one who took the hit, not the rest of the squadron. Cowardly Grot is a terrible rule which stinks but snap shooting Rokkits or Big Shootas isn't much better. The problem with all of these is that they are guns on a dinky walker squadron but if you where so inclined to bring Kanz them then Grotzookas are the only worth while weapon to give them. Grot Tanks are the better Grotzooka delivery system all things considered though.

Touche on the armor. Still, at the cost of two Powerfists for a barebones Kan, if I was running competitive I'd take Deffkoptas hands down. Jetbike rules, Jink, TL Rokkits, and the same S6 AP2 attacks on a tough platform for roughly the same cost.

I've actually never tried them or the KMB and I have a friendly game this Friday, so I'll try out the Grotzookas on one squad of 3 and the KMBs on another squad of 3. But my money is still on the Big Shoota or Rokkits. The range is better and I can play the kite game and then chop up anyone who dares get close to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cindis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

This I'm excited for, because the 40 Flesh Hounds I usually run get DTW on a 4+ against Psyker powers.

Cindis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

But my hyperbole and over reactions! It's not like the majority of the stuff he will be denying with will be level 3 versus the level 2 of white scars or anything!

Or the fact that any Tzeentch list will out psychic dice a marines list!

Instead, let's just complain like a five year old for a week about it!

It does make grey knight libbys considerably better, but yeah I don't know if librarius beats out telepathy or biomancy in general...

Cindis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

Contrary to popular belief, Daemons cannot effortlessly deny every power throw their way, especially against the likes of GK's and/or Libby Conclaves who get bonuses to push through more casting attempts.
Nor does every single Daemon player play a list that gaks out 25+ WC's while summoning 1000pts/turn.

Optimised Daemon lists are one thing. But most people don't run fully optimised lists, and against those, Librarius spamming conclaves are going to suck the fun out of the game.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Cindis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

Contrary to popular belief, Daemons cannot effortlessly deny every power throw their way, especially against the likes of GK's and/or Libby Conclaves who get bonuses to push through more casting attempts.
Nor does every single Daemon player play a list that gaks out 25+ WC's while summoning 1000pts/turn.

Optimised Daemon lists are one thing. But most people don't run fully optimised lists, and against those, Librarius spamming conclaves are going to suck the fun out of the game.

No but they can generally Deny the one they really don't want going off, especially if it's a malediction. Maybe try a different army?

 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't think I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Gree wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Exactly. This whole "noes CSM are unplayable because GW hates everyone but space marines" is utterly flippin stupid. Like I said many times before, I understand the irritation of being neglected, but not getting new stuff and having an utterly gakky dex are two different things. As long as im.not going up against Decurion with Orikanstar, Riptidewing, or Thunder-Bike-Cavalry I'm confident that I have a shot at winning. You guys might want to take down the time and date because I would normally never say this, but I'm starting to think it's a generalship problem compound ed by envy and not so much a faction problem.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Gree wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Exactly. This whole "noes CSM are unplayable because GW hates everyone but space marines" is utterly flippin stupid. Like I said many times before, I understand the irritation of being neglected, but not getting new stuff and having an utterly gakky dex are two different things. As long as im.not going up against Decurion with Orikanstar, Riptidewing, or Thunder-Bike-Cavalry I'm confident that I have a shot at winning. You guys might want to take down the time and date because I would normally never say this, but I'm starting to think it's a generalship problem compound ed by envy and not so much a faction problem.

Do you play Solo CSM, or with FW and\or Daemon allies? Because forgeworld helps A LOT, with dreadclaws for getting melee stuff into combat, chaos knights being pretty decent in general, and daemon synergy existing.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Gree wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Exactly. This whole "noes CSM are unplayable because GW hates everyone but space marines" is utterly flippin stupid. Like I said many times before, I understand the irritation of being neglected, but not getting new stuff and having an utterly gakky dex are two different things. As long as im.not going up against Decurion with Orikanstar, Riptidewing, or Thunder-Bike-Cavalry I'm confident that I have a shot at winning. You guys might want to take down the time and date because I would normally never say this, but I'm starting to think it's a generalship problem compound ed by envy and not so much a faction problem.

Ah, and here we have it, the ever classic "L2P" argument! Huzzah!

Never mind, wrong post.

 Swampmist wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Gree wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Exactly. This whole "noes CSM are unplayable because GW hates everyone but space marines" is utterly flippin stupid. Like I said many times before, I understand the irritation of being neglected, but not getting new stuff and having an utterly gakky dex are two different things. As long as im.not going up against Decurion with Orikanstar, Riptidewing, or Thunder-Bike-Cavalry I'm confident that I have a shot at winning. You guys might want to take down the time and date because I would normally never say this, but I'm starting to think it's a generalship problem compound ed by envy and not so much a faction problem.

Do you play Solo CSM, or with FW and\or Daemon allies? Because forgeworld helps A LOT, with dreadclaws for getting melee stuff into combat, chaos knights being pretty decent in general, and daemon synergy existing.

I wish I had a dreadclaw. I do run FW, but in the form of a decimator engine or a sicaran. Nothing I would consider a handicap like a typhon, Fire Raptor or a Brass Scorpion. I've also got a self-converted Kytan but he only shows up via opponent request or if the opponent is running knight (s).

I do play KDK and occasionally run CSM allies with them, but in this case I'm talking just the CSM book (with maybe a so-so FW model).

Dreadclaws are expensive and kinda meh, I think.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Gree wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Exactly. This whole "noes CSM are unplayable because GW hates everyone but space marines" is utterly flippin stupid. Like I said many times before, I understand the irritation of being neglected, but not getting new stuff and having an utterly gakky dex are two different things. As long as im.not going up against Decurion with Orikanstar, Riptidewing, or Thunder-Bike-Cavalry I'm confident that I have a shot at winning. You guys might want to take down the time and date because I would normally never say this, but I'm starting to think it's a generalship problem compound ed by envy and not so much a faction problem.

Ah, and here we have it, the ever classic "L2P" argument! Huzzah!

Like I said, that is probably the only time I'll ever say that and I never have before. There's been a whole lot of CSM players sporting torches and pitchforks as of late (IMO it's not really THAT bad) and as I said before even though our book leaves a lot to be desired it is definitely playable if you know what you're doing. I perform pretty well in my groups casual games and can hold my own in competitive games with a few exceptions (although it is definitely an uphill battle ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Dreadclaws are expensive and kinda meh, I think.

My buddy let me run his a few times before and it's a godsend compared to having to run a gakky big metal bawks or a lot of small metal bawkses make of slaneesh's empty beer cans.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Cindis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

Contrary to popular belief, Daemons cannot effortlessly deny every power throw their way, especially against the likes of GK's and/or Libby Conclaves who get bonuses to push through more casting attempts.
Nor does every single Daemon player play a list that gaks out 25+ WC's while summoning 1000pts/turn.

Optimised Daemon lists are one thing. But most people don't run fully optimised lists, and against those, Librarius spamming conclaves are going to suck the fun out of the game.

It's hardly fair to be comparing unoptimized lists against the Librarius Conclave though. It's essentially the best psyker in the game.

I'd be fine with completely revamping psychic powers again and bringing them back under control, but I'm more than a little biased.

So here is my theory. Run a Librarius Conclave. One of the Librarians has the Bones of Osrak. Aim for Veil of Time and Forewarning. Give a Unit a 4++ Rerollable. Profit?

I'd rather have sanctuary on hammernators.

 Quickjager wrote:
I'd rather have sanctuary on hammernators.

I don't have Hammernators to attach it to. I have Pedro Kantor and Invulnerableless Honour Guard. Forewarning gives the most bang for the buck due to not being Sanctic and giving a 4++. I could aim for Invisibility too. Nothing is going to get through that very easily, not even D.

Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

They are a blender unit that has to survive a turn of shooting in order to survive. They have a 2+ armour save, but that is hardly reliable anymore. A 4++ for the whole unit, Rerollable saves (Pedro would tank), or only being hit on Snap Shots (again, Pedro tanking) is a good way to keep them going. Bones of Osrak helps that out too since harnessing is a lot easier with more warp charges and 4+ Rerollable harnessing. Librarius Conclave just makes it downright unfair. Especially since I could potentially get all three defensive powers on this squad. And they WILL wreck anything they come into contact with.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

(I know you won't read this, but, that's your loss...)

Or just maybe it's because Chaos at one point actually had highly flavourful rules, including well represented Legions, a huge swath of various mutations to customise characters, God-specific wargear for everyone (not just Khorne!)...
Were there issue with the 3.5 codex? Absolutely. Iron Warriors & Siren Princes rightly needed to be reined in and/or simply burn in a car fire. But the basics were all there, and Chaos was never more fun to play than they were at the time.

Then what happened? GW (or rather Jervis) decided that Legions and options and God-specific armouries and fluffy Sacred Numbers rules were far to complicated and overly complex, and then blanderised the living hell out of our book.
And then they turn around and give Loyalist Marines literally everything they claimed was too complex about Chaos

There's no flavour or crunch left to Chaos. It's a book that's playing with a rules set that's 10+ years old, and your "identity" is based entirely on a paint scheme.
There is a very obvious anti-Chaos bias that's pervaded GW for the past decade. None of our releases are anywhere close to what everyone else gets... Sure other armies have some equally terrible rules, but at least they're getting a tone of model love. Chaos Marines though aren't even worthy of that! Our model line is the oldest, most incomplete, and gakkiest looking on GW store shelves.
And yet, with Daemons, GW proved that random can be fun & highly doable, but with Chaos Marines, randumb is just a way to keep kicking the blind, crippled kid further down the street.
Meanwhile, the Daemon model line has been given the same, routine treatment, and is now nearly all plastic... (only Furies, Flesh Hounds, Fiends, Beasts, a couple Heralds/SC's and the Greaters left to go!)

Meanwhile, Imperials keep getting rules & units that are literally carbon copies and/or based heavily on what were once unique Chaos units/abilities, because... "Reasons".

Chaos has been taking it up the poop chute longer than anyone, while repeatedly getting to watch as Loyalists continue to pee in our cereal and then simply laughed at and told to just "L2P/Git Gud".

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

(I know you won't read this, but, that's your loss...)

Or just maybe it's because Chaos *snip*

The point being is that it's simply annoying that us players are who has to listen to endless rants like that both on message boards as well as IRL. I've had my share of grav-cent whining even before I even owned & played a single fething grav-weapon OR Centurion on my Marines.

It's not us SM players or Tau players or whoever is the last one to receive an update who decided "lets feth over Chaos Marines". It's GW. All you achieve here is constantly piss off other players that have literally no chance to change this nor were we involved in that decision.

EVERYONE knows that CSM is an extremely weak codex, but it's not like we can do anything about it.

nekooni wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

(I know you won't read this, but, that's your loss...)

Or just maybe it's because Chaos *snip*

The point being is that it's simply annoying that us players are who has to listen to endless rants like that both on message boards as well as IRL. I've had my share of grav-cent whining even before I even owned & played a single fething grav-weapon OR Centurion on my Marines.

It's not us SM players or Tau players or whoever is the last one to receive an update who decided "lets feth over Chaos Marines". It's GW. All you achieve here is constantly piss off other players that have literally no chance to change this nor were we involved in that decision.

EVERYONE knows that CSM is an extremely weak codex, but it's not like we can do anything about it.

So we don't say anything and pretend everything is fine, while we get handed blander and blander codex's, while loyalists seem to get things taken from CSM of days past, or some new shiny that requires them to shoehorn it into the fluff?

Secondly, you're involved in what units you buy and how you run your army, so yes you can control elements of the game.

Whine to GW, then, as they wont hear all of you complaining here.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Whine to GW, then, as they wont hear all of you complaining here.

Online discussion forums about a tabletop game, run by fans, would seem to be an excellent place for fans of said game to discuss their issues with it...particularly when GW hs none of their own forums.

There's a difference between discussing it and bogging down every thread about anything to do with Loyalists with a constant and unending stream of garbage about the CSM Dex.

Make a thread to discuss the CSMs treatment, if you want to discuss it, and keep it out of every other thread.

Otherwise, it's more 'git gud' if for no other reason than to spite people who post about it.

CSM are the new BA? Yeah, I went there.

I am sure they will be quick to point out that BA can always ally in Gravturions/Librarius/etc., while conveniently forgetting they can ally in DThirsters/Take Belakor/etc.

Because that's different.

And Orks can ally in Eldar. The ally argument is completely invalid.

And plague marines are still better than anything in C:BA. But I've tried to drop it in general, as BA have been made a footnote by GW.

It would be quite fun to see, what happens when GW decides in 8th Edition:
SM are overpowered as hell, let`s take all the shiny stuff from them away, and shoehorn them to Orks/Tyranids/CSM....
But that would never happen, because a SM-fan/Chaos-hater writes the 40k-rules.

 Ankhalagon wrote:
It would be quite fun to see, what happens when GW decides in 8th Edition:
SM are overpowered as hell, let`s take all the shiny stuff from them away, and shoehorn them to Orks/Tyranids/CSM....
But that would never happen, because a SM-fan/Chaos-hater writes the 40k-rules.

This is very strange for me, because vanilla marines were mediocre in 5th, and unplayable in 2nd. They were fantastic at the start of 3rd, but got progressively weaker.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ankhalagon wrote:
It would be quite fun to see, what happens when GW decides in 8th Edition:
SM are overpowered as hell, let`s take all the shiny stuff from them away, and shoehorn them to Orks/Tyranids/CSM....
But that would never happen, because a SM-fan/Chaos-hater writes the 40k-rules.

This is very strange for me, because vanilla marines were mediocre in 5th, and unplayable in 2nd. They were fantastic at the start of 3rd, but got progressively weaker.

Eh, Vanilla Marines were very strong the first part of 5E...vulkan drop pod spam won a lot of events. They just got eclipsed later by...other marines

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ankhalagon wrote:
It would be quite fun to see, what happens when GW decides in 8th Edition:
SM are overpowered as hell, let`s take all the shiny stuff from them away, and shoehorn them to Orks/Tyranids/CSM....
But that would never happen, because a SM-fan/Chaos-hater writes the 40k-rules.

This is very strange for me, because vanilla marines were mediocre in 5th, and unplayable in 2nd. They were fantastic at the start of 3rd, but got progressively weaker.

Eh, Vanilla Marines were very strong the first part of 5E...vulkan drop pod spam won a lot of events. They just got eclipsed later by...other marines

I never found it that great, and I was playing with the WD BA codex. You just had to take advantage of them being on foot after dropping. And being unable to assault. 5th ed vanilla was not that great ever. Expensive units and predictable tactics. Having to get that close and then having no mobility afterwards was never a strong plan, imo.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ankhalagon wrote:
It would be quite fun to see, what happens when GW decides in 8th Edition:
SM are overpowered as hell, let`s take all the shiny stuff from them away, and shoehorn them to Orks/Tyranids/CSM....
But that would never happen, because a SM-fan/Chaos-hater writes the 40k-rules.

This is very strange for me, because vanilla marines were mediocre in 5th, and unplayable in 2nd. They were fantastic at the start of 3rd, but got progressively weaker.

Eh, Vanilla Marines were very strong the first part of 5E...vulkan drop pod spam won a lot of events. They just got eclipsed later by...other marines

I never found it that great, and I was playing with the WD BA codex. You just had to take advantage of them being on foot after dropping. And being unable to assault. 5th ed vanilla was not that great ever. Expensive units and predictable tactics. Having to get that close and then having no mobility afterwards was never a strong plan, imo.

Vulkan Drop Pod spam and White Scar biker lists were solid all through 5th.
They only got eclipsed once the likes of army-wide FnP BA parking lots, SW Trollhunters + Longwang spam, and eventually 'I-Win' Knights showed up.

Vanilla Marines were crap in 3rd, though not quite as crap as the 1st CSM codex of 3rd.
BA's were godly, being even faster than freaking Dark Eldar were! and then of course, SW's, the only Marine army that's maintained a level of constant cheddar in a manner similar to Eldar over the years, were even better than BA's.
Chaos 3.5ed made Marines very, very sad, and then went on to win the Eye of Terror campaign, which apparently was very, very naughty of them & shouldn't have happened.

Really, it's been Dark Angels (the half-Chaos Loyalist marines who simply can't admit they're really Chaos), and, CSM's who've been the traditionally 'crap' power armoured books. Both have only ever really had 1 shining moment of glory; 1st Chaos in 3.5ed, and now DA's with their 7.5ed codex.

Honestly, the only thing that Chaos players really want is to finally be treated as equals with all the other power armoured books, and to (for once) get some models that don't date back to 2001 and earlier! (which is almost our entire "current" model line)

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

(I know you won't read this, but, that's your loss...)

Or just maybe it's because Chaos *snip*

The point being is that it's simply annoying that us players are who has to listen to endless rants like that both on message boards as well as IRL. I've had my share of grav-cent whining even before I even owned & played a single fething grav-weapon OR Centurion on my Marines.

It's not us SM players or Tau players or whoever is the last one to receive an update who decided "lets feth over Chaos Marines". It's GW. All you achieve here is constantly piss off other players that have literally no chance to change this nor were we involved in that decision.

EVERYONE knows that CSM is an extremely weak codex, but it's not like we can do anything about it.

So we don't say anything and pretend everything is fine, while we get handed blander and blander codex's, while loyalists seem to get things taken from CSM of days past, or some new shiny that requires them to shoehorn it into the fluff?

Secondly, you're involved in what units you buy and how you run your army, so yes you can control elements of the game.

See, perfect example. How I run my army has nothing to do with how good or bad the rules for CSM are.
It's some sort of misguided envy and frustration that, since GW doesn't listen, you direct at the only ones that might listen what you say. Like complaining to your wife what an asshat your boss is.
But you blame your wife for it because she earns more money than you. And that's what people are sick and tired of.

nekooni wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

(I know you won't read this, but, that's your loss...)

Or just maybe it's because Chaos *snip*

The point being is that it's simply annoying that us players are who has to listen to endless rants like that both on message boards as well as IRL. I've had my share of grav-cent whining even before I even owned & played a single fething grav-weapon OR Centurion on my Marines.

It's not us SM players or Tau players or whoever is the last one to receive an update who decided "lets feth over Chaos Marines". It's GW. All you achieve here is constantly piss off other players that have literally no chance to change this nor were we involved in that decision.

EVERYONE knows that CSM is an extremely weak codex, but it's not like we can do anything about it.

So we don't say anything and pretend everything is fine, while we get handed blander and blander codex's, while loyalists seem to get things taken from CSM of days past, or some new shiny that requires them to shoehorn it into the fluff?

Secondly, you're involved in what units you buy and how you run your army, so yes you can control elements of the game.

See, perfect example. How I run my army has nothing to do with how good or bad the rules for CSM are.
It's some sort of misguided envy and frustration that, since GW doesn't listen, you direct at the only ones that might listen what you say. Like complaining to your wife what an asshat your boss is.
But you blame your wife for it because she earns more money than you. And that's what people are sick and tired of.

I have gracious friends who will tone down the cheddar for games they play against my Chaos.

If you play in tournaments by all means, but pulling your best list out for a pick up game against csm is possibly a TFG moment.

I think what csm players want is an acknowledgement that yes our codex is junk, and that maybe you should take a minute to realise that other players who spend the same money / effort / time on their armies would like to be on equal footing for a change.

Well said Konrax, well said.

That's how I feel with my orks.

You know, I'm actually trying to imagine a Psyker under the effects of Might of Heroes (+2 S, T, I, A), Warp Speed (+3 I, A, Fleet), and Fists of Lightning (+1 S,A and each hit deals 2 S5 AP- hits). That's S10 T6 W2 I9 A8(9 on the charge) with Fleet (plus two S5 AP- hits per successful hit) on a standard Librarian! Total warp charge needed: Freaking 3! Holy hell!

That's what? 11 warp charges mathematically to manifest. I think the only way to have such a beast happen is Sevin Loth in a Libbey Conclave?

Yes, BA are pretty bad too. But BA do have something CSM never will - hope.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Yes, BA are pretty bad too. But BA do have something CSM never will - hope.

I dunno about that. You never know what GW is going to do. I'd say chaos marines have more hope just because their book is much older. BA players have the misfortune of being the LAST book to come out right before the game went on a decurion-extravaganza. And they got a supplement with hilariously bad and typically unusable at smaller point levels non-decurion formations as well, so it's gonna be a WHILE before they get anything other than being told to just run as red codex marines.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Yes, BA are pretty bad too. But BA do have something CSM never will - hope.

I dunno about that. You never know what GW is going to do. I'd say chaos marines have more hope just because their book is much older. BA players have the misfortune of being the LAST book to come out right before the game went on a decurion-extravaganza. And they got a supplement with hilariously bad and typically unusable at smaller point levels non-decurion formations as well, so it's gonna be a WHILE before they get anything other than being told to just run as red codex marines.

Well, Blood Angels do get access to the new Marine lores, so there's that very large boost. Not nearly as God-tier as if they also had access to the Libby conclave itself of course.

But then, Crimson Slaughter got "the BA treatment" in their formations, as their 'super formation-formation' only requires the ever-so-minor investment of what is it - 2040pts or so? (with 0 upgrades!)
The Black Legion stuff is better, but then, it still almost certainly is forced to pay the 'Black Legion Tax', as it's highly unlikely that GW has removed the requirement which forces every single model to buy the VotLW upgrade.

I also have a feeling that BA's will get their 7.5ed codex before CSM's, since we've had fairly reliable rumors saying "no Chaos codex until mid 2017". That gives you guys a 13'ish month window (assuming a June 2017 release for CSM's) to get some additional love before Chaos does.

The "best" that Chaos currently has to hope for, is that the highly new rumored Thousand Sons kit coming "after summer", finally allows for some minor upgrades for the squad. (a Heavy bolter would be nice, while a sorcerous Kai gun would be a dream come true!)
Odds are though, GW won't want to screw with the current codex entry, and thus, the new kit will contain nothing but bolter marines, and thus, continue to doom the coolest blue marines in existence to being at most, pretty shelf decorations...

I don't think anyone denies that Chaos Space Marines currently have the gak end of the stick, and have had it since mid way through 6th.

No reason to come gak all over every loyalist thread, though.

Thousand Sons especially have always been bad.

What BA really need is...
WS/BS4 Scouts
Terminators to decrease by 25 points
FORMATIONS
Gabriel Seth moved back to HQ, and get his old 'Kick you in the Balls' rule
All our Dreadnoughts getting 4 attacks base
Mephiston to get an Invun, or EW
Taking Death Company Tycho/Astorath moves Death Company to Troops (this would actually make Tycho be used)
Death company Squad Size bumped back up to 30
Dante gets Orbital Bombardment
Dante Doesnt scatter on Deep Strike
Dante gets his old Mask back

Don't forget
- access to the Storm Talon (being the Fast assault army and all)
- access to the LSS for the same reason as the talon
- Our reclusiarch back
- Sang Priest needs to be 1-3 per slot again
- Grav cannons for devs and troops
- vehicle squadrons.

Add commander dantes suggestions to these and BAM! BA are perfectly playable again even though they still don't have CT and only 2 decent formations that cost over half your allowed points. I doubt they be competitive even then, but at least they'd move up to middle of the mid-tier. Not worst army in the fething game.

Seriously if I were on the GW design team I could FAQ that on the toilet before I need to wipe, but we all know it ain't happening this edition.

On a separate note, I thought this release was supposed to be a 30th birthday gig for space marines... Im starting to think all of those "battle honors " BA are famous for were participation awards. GW'S way of saying, "yea you guys suck balls, but thanks for showing up anyway".