I haven't given this an extreme amount of thought, but
1) Take relentless away from bikes, or at least jetbikes. 2) Add 2 to your initiative when you charge. 3) ICs cannot be sweeping advanced. 4) MCs have a damage table similar to fantasy. 5) Blasts can be centered anywhere on a squad unless that squad is locked in CC.
1) MCs have a Damage Table; 6s on a damage table deal d3 wounds\HP instead of one, explosion only happens if this damage would destroy the vehicle.
2) On a successful Sweeping Advance, instead of instantly killing the caught unit, gives the sweeping unit another full round of combat that the opponent does not get to participate in, with he fleeing unit counting as WS1. With this change, ATSKNF gets changed to "Always win ties during sweeping advances" and maybe not count as ws1 when successfully swept.
3) Fix the Weapon Skill table to be less unintuitive
4) Templates and Blasts only hit a single floor of a building\ruins; Barrage weapons still hit every floor
5) Small blasts gain pinning across the board, and no longer must have their hole over a model.
1) Hitting in close comabt can be altered to 2+/6+.
2) You may charge out of deep strike.
3) You may charge after swapping from zooming to swooping.
4) If a blast weapon directly hits a flyer or FMC it is counted as hitting.
5) A vehicle is hit in cc on the facing closest to the attacking unit rather than always the rear armour.
1. Kill random charge range with fire. Acceptable replacements would be "you always charge at least your initiative value, regardless of roll," or just set range or something. Anything to get rid of super soldiers tripping on their shoe laces and failing a 3 inch charge.
2. Kill pre-game ran-dumb-ness with fire. Pick your traits and powers during list building.
3. Kill formations. Special detachments that trade obsec for something else are neat. Formations took it way too far, and some of them were apparently written by a wish listing TFG.
4. (In addition to 2) Fix powers and traits so some of them aren't bomb-tastically game breaking.
5. Change AP system to partial effects, and rework the AP of everything with that in mind.
Honorable mention: remove overwatch. It's usually a pointless time-wasting roll, but still manages to make CC strategies even more unreliable and random.
Honorable mention 2: Take some shooty out of shootyhammer 40k, and put some choppy back in. Armies getting tabled from long range shouldn't happen. (Casualties sure, but not tabling.) I don't care if you're guard or tau, every army should be playing the movement phase. Perhaps some reworking to make them have a few more decent cc units like making kroot and ogryns good could be done here.
Last honorable mention: set up an errata/FAQ/point change page. As things are found to be design mistakes, like wraithknights on one end and mutilators on the other, post changes on there to fix things. Might be a little hectic at first, as lots of things need fixing, but it'll eventually settle.
1) Turn structure. I should not have to amuse myself for 30-60 minutes by watching TV while waiting for my opponent to finish his turn.
2) Armor save system vs armor save modifiers. This really applies to all stats, but is at its worst with armor. A lasgun should not have the same effect on a terminator's save as a krak missile.
3) Lack of weapons causing multiple wounds. Am I really supposed to believe that a guardsman can survive a demolisher or earthshaker shell 1/6 times he's hit by one, just because it failed one roll to wound?
4) Poor adaptation for increased scale. More than just Lords of War, I can now field an entire space marine company, with transports, in a standard size game. Nothing has been done in the rules to account for this, with rules still pretending every model on the field is important, rather than being just one part of a larger unit.
5) Lack of tactical options. Flanking attacks, smoke, stunning enemy targets, stealth, target priority, none of these options exist, making the game more about killing enemy models before they can kill you back than anything else.
Honorable Mention
6) Terrible mission structure. Maelstrom was terribly implemented, and the standard rules emphasize a last turn objective grab, rather than a game long progression towards victory. The whole game feels like a mario cart race where the blue shell can be used at any point.
1. No random charge range.
2. Make Overwatch a thing that only certain units have.
3. Make 2+ and 6+ possible in CC.
4. No random warlord traits and powers.
5. ...yeah, that's all I've got, sorry.
shyzo wrote: If you could change 5 things in the core rules, what would those be?
1. Remove the Gargantuan Monstrous Creature special rules
2. Remove the superheavy vehicle special rules.
3. Remove strength D
4. Remove the flying creatures/vehicle special rules (these are to be replaced with the "skimmer" and "jump infantry" special rules).
5. Replace 2d6 charge range with a flat 6" charge range and run distance with a flat 3" range.
Honorable mentions:
1. Random warlord traits and psychic powers
2. Combine the psychic and shooting phases again.
3. Replace random move through cover distances to a flat negative modifier on movement.
1: Cover affects everything equally.
2: Everything is on the same toughness/wounds/save system.
3: Owner's choice casualty removal.
4: Psychic system revamped to be more akin to 8th edition fantasy's.
5: Revamp the vehicle rules to allow passengers more freedom to Assault.
Honorable mentions:
6: More interactive turn sequence.
7: Overhaul close combat mechanics making the difference in skill more important.
8: armor save modifiers instead of AP.
9: Drastically reduce USRs and just incorporate their effects into the stats and loadouts of units.
10: Movement stats return.
4. Remove the flying creatures/vehicle special rules (these are to be replaced with the "skimmer" and "jump infantry" special rules).
Wouldn't that then miss the point that flyers and FMC's are far above the ground. "hard to hit" and completely impossible to attack in cc?
That is the point.
Also its not that they are high off the ground (you can chuck an 8" ranged grenade at them), its that they are going at very high speeds making them hard to hit.
CrownAxe wrote:Also its not that they are high off the ground (you can chuck an 8" ranged grenade at them), its that they are going at very high speeds making them hard to hit.
As I said: make them skimmers. If they're going at high speed, then they can jink.
Also, in game, they're not going that fast. A zooming scythe moving at minimum speed is moving no faster than a rhino moving flat out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrhappyface wrote:Wouldn't that then miss the point that flyers and FMC's are far above the ground. "hard to hit" and completely impossible to attack in cc?
And yet they can still claim cover. And yet units can fail to draw line of sight to them in the shooting phase.
pm713 wrote:I'm curious about why that change. Most people I've seen think it was one of the better changes in 7th.
I'm not a fan of the psychic phase. I think that it's an OP, easily abused ruleset which is, frankly, out of place in a game which is, as another poster put it, supposed to be WWII IN SPACE!
I want to see psyker abilities nerfed to be basically just one kind of shooting attack among others and properly balanced as such. [At the very least, it would make psykers analogous to Star Wars Jedi as opposed to the shenanigans they can use now.]
4. Remove the flying creatures/vehicle special rules (these are to be replaced with the "skimmer" and "jump infantry" special rules).
Wouldn't that then miss the point that flyers and FMC's are far above the ground. "hard to hit" and completely impossible to attack in cc?
That is the point.
Also its not that they are high off the ground (you can chuck an 8" ranged grenade at them), its that they are going at very high speeds making them hard to hit.
In mear common sense terms: a marine is about 2-3m tall, let's say his reach (with some kind of cc weapon) is another 1m, by this logic the proposed flyer is only ~4m off the ground whivh I would say is a dangerously low flying altitude.
pm713 wrote:I'm curious about why that change. Most people I've seen think it was one of the better changes in 7th.
I'm not a fan of the psychic phase. I think that it's an OP, easily abused ruleset which is, frankly, out of place in a game which is, as another poster put it, supposed to be WWII IN SPACE!
I want to see psyker abilities nerfed to be basically just one kind of shooting attack among others and properly balanced as such.
How is it OP? Psykers hardly have madly powerful shooting. The Psychic Phase makes it way easier to cast powers because you cast them at the same time rather than all over the turn. A Psychic Phase is hardly more out of place than psychic powers in a different phase.
pm713 wrote:How is it OP? Psykers hardly have madly powerful shooting. The Psychic Phase makes it way easier to cast powers because you cast them at the same time rather than all over the turn. A Psychic Phase is hardly more out of place than psychic powers in a different phase.
pm713 wrote:I'm curious about why that change. Most people I've seen think it was one of the better changes in 7th.
I'm not a fan of the psychic phase. I think that it's an OP, easily abused ruleset which is, frankly, out of place in a game which is, as another poster put it, supposed to be WWII IN SPACE!
I want to see psyker abilities nerfed to be basically just one kind of shooting attack among others and properly balanced as such. [At the very least, it would make psykers analogous to Star Wars Jedi as opposed to the shenanigans they can use now.]
Where in the hell did you get the idea that 40k is suppose to be WW2 in space? That is the most ridiculous thing i've heard you say it explains so many of the stupid ideas you have about 40k
mrhappyface wrote:Wouldn't that then miss the point that flyers and FMC's are far above the ground. "hard to hit" and completely impossible to attack in cc?
And yet they can still claim cover. And yet units can fail to draw line of sight to them in the shooting phase.
I do not agree with the fact that they can use ground cover or that they can hide behind things in order to deny LoS. However I don't think the solution to that is to make them skimmers but to rather add into a flyers profile that they cannot use ground cover, etc. By making them skimmers your removing the rules that do make sense and leaving them with the rules that don't.
pm713 wrote:How is it OP? Psykers hardly have madly powerful shooting. The Psychic Phase makes it way easier to cast powers because you cast them at the same time rather than all over the turn. A Psychic Phase is hardly more out of place than psychic powers in a different phase.
Literally one of those is shooting. What power is an apocalyptic ap2 blast? Those are OP powers there is a difference between some powers being OP and all psychic powers being OP.
1. MCs and FMCs lose Smash, Fear and Fearless.
2. Walkers gain Move-Through-Cover as standard.
3. All vehicles in the game get +1 HP.
4. Chainswords and Mono-molecular Blades become Ap5.
5. Models can charge for their Base Movement+D6".
1) Allow weapons with a significantly higher strength than toughness to deal extra wounds to targets instead of Instant Death.
2) Make Blasts/Large Blasts force cover save re-rolls.
3) Allow charging from reserves/deep strike at a significant penalty. Firing from reserves/deep strike subjected to a significant penalty.
4) Significantly buff offensive psyker powers and debuff others.
5) Remove randomness in Warlord traits, psyker powers and victory points from maelstrom cards
Unless you mean remove it from all the MCs which do have it... which wouldn't be a good thing at all (because DP's need another nerf, right?).
Anyway...
1. Psykers generate warp charges like they did in 6th and are restricted to only knowing powers with a Warp Charge cost equal to or less than their mastery level. You'd still generate an extra D6 warp charges in the psychic phase, though.
2. Deny the Witch goes back to 6th Edition rules, with the exception that units within 12" of a Psyker casting a Blessing or Conjuration can attempt a Deny the Witch roll.
3. Psychic Tests become Leadership Tests again, and Witchfires automatically hit on a successful test that rolls a double. Perils happens if you roll a double 6 or double 1.
4. Charging move becomes 6+D6"
5. Bikes are no longer Relentless (including Jetbikes).
Sneaky 6 because I'm bad: Blast and Template weaons can Snap Fire. Blasts always scatter the full amount if they fail to roll a hit on the scatter die when snap fired and Templates deal D3 hits (up to the number of enemy models within range to prevent character sniping) with an 8" (20" with the Torrent rule) range.
1). An idea I had (not completely original) was to change To Wound rolls to a system similar to that for Penetrating the Armor of vehicles. For example:
A Space Marine would now have a Toughness (or Defense or whatever) of 8. If a Guardsman shoots them with a lasgun, they roll a D6 and add this to the lasguns strength. If they equal or beat the Marines toughness, they wound the Marine. So they need a 5 or 6. This wouldn't change things a lot, but it does mean that it's possible to autowound some targets with some weapons. So now, if that Guardsman gets hit by a Demolisher Cannon....they're dead.
Also, this means strength would no longer be limited to a 1-10 system. But this is a huge overhaul so I'm mad about it.
2). I also thought about this change for the WS system. Simply change it to, all cc attacks need 4+ to hit. If your WS is better than your opponents, add +1 to the result. If your WS is double your opponents, add +2. And if their WS is better than yours, it's -1. And if it's double, -2. So, a Space Marine Captain will hit Guardsmen on 2+, whilst they'll need 6+ to hit back . So again, the system isn't limited to 1-10. And I hope this makes assault a bit more powerful. And maybe there can be more variation in stats.
3). I'd change Snap Fire to a simple -1 (or -2?) to the To Hit rolls. So having better BS will help out.
4). Taking a leaf out of Age of Sigmar, I'd do away with blast templates. And instead, change it to, you roll to hit using your BS, and for each hit you score, it's multipled into D3 hits. And for every 10 models in the target unit, you gain +1BS. Large blast weapons can inflict D6 hits, massive blasts can be D6+3 hits and apocalyptic blasts can be D6+6 hits.
5). Change it so that the minimum charge range of a unit is equal to the highest initiative value of the unit. So now you'll sort of know where you're at. Or Movement plus D6?
Also, I have ideas for pyskers in another thread I'd like to see.
1. Allow assault from infiltrate, scout, and coming on from reserves in general (including outflanking). Make it so that any unit that does assault in this way counts as having made a disordered charge. Overwatch and random charges have made this assault severely hamstringed unless you have ridiculous formation bonuses to compensate, this way it allows normal units to do something. Allow units in non assault vehicle transports that did not move in the preceding movement phase to disembark and assault normally, gives CSM units a chance in rhinos and other units like Banshees in Wave Serpents.
2. Make it so jump infantry get jink rather than normal bikes/jetbikes, who only gain access to a cover save again if they turbo boost in the shooting phase. I think their high toughness and being relentless should be ample compensation for their abilities.
3. Make it so vehicles/walkers have toughness and armour values similar to MC, add "mechanical" and "biological" types to make it clear what kind of weapons such as haywire/melta (which would be tweaked like rolling twice to see if it wounds or not) or poisoned/fleshbane/force work on what. HP become the amount of wounds they have. Have one unified damage table for both.
4. Make it so that a LoW may only take up to 25% of your army comp. GMC should not have FNP base built in.
5. Blast templates are changed to have models that are hit under the central hole to take D3 wounds if its a small blast, and D6 wounds if its large blast. Makes it so blast weapons actually do decent damage against multiple wound models like MC/vehicles and things like plasma cannons and battle cannons can do something against armies nowadays.
1 - Old-style vehicle damage charts, no more hullpoints. Back to structure points for super-heavies.
2- Everything is area terrain for everyone, no more 25% obscured.
3 - Flyers become fast skimmers, FMCs become jump MCs. They now are the only units with the "Jink" special rule, current skimmers and bikes lose it.
4 - 6 on the D-weapon chart causes 3 unsavable wounds/penetrating hits.
5 - Bikes lose relentless.
I think mine are pretty similar to a lot of peoples' here:
1. Nerf strength D by about 30%.
2. Invisibility drops firing units to BS2, to-hit in close combat of 5. No effect on template or blast weapons.
3. No reroll can succeed on better than a 4+.
4. Either remove fear or make it useful and less pervasive.
5. Varied rebalancing of other psychic powers/disciplines as needed. Maybe even a cap on number of buffs a unit can be affected by at any given time. Just needs a revamp.
Completely wishful thinking:
6. Implement a penalty for people who take 20 minutes to figure out where to land a drop pod.
Yeah, and obviously you can then add it to the profiles of units for which it makes sense.
I would say double the HP, but Pens do 2 HP.
Surely the advantage of a Penetrating Hit is the module damage... Perhaps make that easier to achieve via a new damage table.
That really only feths over the dudes who are bad to begin with: Guard, Nids, Orks
Orks losing their t-shirt save is not going to have a big impact on them, and their rules can be changed to rebalance them, which is desperately needed already.
If your Guardsmen are in combat then you're doing something wrong already, and Nids are expendable (although the change could be rolled out to Scything Talons, as well). Half the Nid players I know field nothing but Warriors, anyway, because they can't be bothered to paint the hordes.
The point of granting Ap5 to more CCWs is to reflect the bonuses that those kinds of weapons would naturally give and to make dedicated assault armies more viable. Chaos, Deldar, Harlies and several Spers Mern factions would all benefit from this, and it would open opportunities for different kinds of lists in those armies which are already top-tier, while not letting the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction. The point is to balance the game, not just 'make Nids great again'.
Beasts can move 12" then assault for 12+D6"?
As can Jump Infantry, Bikes and Cavalry. The bonus applies across the board, and I wouldn't just consider this an opportunity to nerf the armies that are strong at the moment. There's more at stake here than a few Power-Gamers' egos (not that those people won't just find a new way to break the game, anyway).
1. Remove Imperial Knights from the game.
2. Remove Tau from the game.
3. Remove Eldar from the game.
4. Remove Dark Angels from the game.
5. Remove White Scars from the game.
1. Remove Imperial Knights from the game.
2. Remove Tau from the game.
3. Remove Eldar from the game.
4. Remove Dark Angels from the game.
5. Remove White Scars from the game.
Squat them all!
I can't quite tell how serious you're being here, but how about eliminating every faction except Imperial Guard, Ultramarines and Chaos Space Marines?
1] Fix the Vehicle Damage Table.
1-2 Shaken (can only fire 1 weapon at full BS while stationary, moving is all snap shots)
3-4 Stunned (only snap shots, half movement, model survives death or glory)
5 Weapon Damaged (a weapon is destroyed)
6 Engine Damaged (permanent half movement, survive death or glory)
7 Critical Damage (D3 additional hull points)
8 Explode (D3+3 hull points,D6" blast Str 4 AP-)
2] Fix Walkers. Walkers can move 6" and shoot all their weapons or move 12" firing snap shots. Running is D3+3 inches. Stuns become shaken. Walkers have move through cover.
3] Jump Infantry can use their packs for both the movement and the assault phase. Jump Infantry who are not Monstrous Creatures can jink.
4] Each psychic phase the non casting player gets D6 + half the number of warp charges the casting player gets for Deny the Witch. (This is so having 10 psykers doesn't mean you can cast everything without resistance and it also means having 10 psykers doesn't make the other players 1 psyker completely useless as his one or two powers being cast will be countered by buckets of dice.)
5] Mechanics fixes like Invis being BS/WS1 and reroll saves are at max a 4+ on the reroll.
Experimental Rules but I would want to try all vehicles have 3+ armor except non heavy skimmers and flyers having 4+ armor.
1. Remove Imperial Knights from the game.
2. Remove Tau from the game.
3. Remove Eldar from the game.
4. Remove Dark Angels from the game.
5. Remove White Scars from the game.
Squat them all!
You mean "Give bolters the Gauss rule?" I think that's what you mean.
1 - Psykers have to use the Warp Charges they contribute, adding to their pool from the randomly generated ones. This should cut down on 'Battery' Psykers providing dice to 1-2 Psykers who do everything. It would also stretch resources for psyker spam armies.
2 - While I don't mind the 25% Obscured rule for cover, models should at least have terrain between them and the firing unit. The 'Foot in Cover' abuse still pops up. This is also probably an issue because most places I've seen treat most terrain as Area Terrain. Technically a different rule, but MCs should work like vehicles when it comes to cover.
3 - Remove the auto-lose rule if no models on the table.
4 - Since Transports are all being assigned to Fast Attack, they should now count as FA. Remove the Dedicated ObSec Transports.
5 - 'Primary Detachments' must make up a minimum of 50% of your force. Formations have really curbed this from being as common, but it still feels off when I see an 'Ally' contribute the majority of the army.
X - Doesn't affect any of my armies, but maybe allowing dedicated assault units, the 'Assault' rule, so they can charge out of any vehicle. Open topped vehicles would still grant it to all units. I think this would help out Assault armies that don't have access to Open Topped w/o allying, and wouldn't grant the bonus to units that aren't intended to have it. Blood Angels, and Banshees come to mind.
Other things that I read.
* Remove LOW. Not needed really, but restrict it to 2k games.
* Adding +1 HP to vehicles is a great idea, but I would only do it for non Skimmers. They trade that HP for the ability to 'Jink'
* Casualty removal from the Front is fine.
* Assaulting from Reserves/Deep Strike. Just NO, and remove it from units that can do it.
* Instead of giving Bolter the Gauss rule, why not add the 6+/X+ back to the wound table, instead of null wound.
Some seem to be confused over what a core rule is...mind you with the multiple layers of exceptions and additional rules in 40k it is not really surprising.
1) Change the game turn mechanic to alternating phases.This increases the level of player interaction, and remove's the need for clunky and poorly applied over watch rules.
2) Put ALL movement back in to the movement phase.
3) Change the stat line to include IMPORTANT abilities, (like movement. )
4) Use opposed stats on a universal resolution chart to resolve all combat .To hit in shooting and assault, to save ,and to damage/wound.ALL resoved in the same way for ALL units.(1 resolution method apart from direct representation , as opposed to current rules 6 resolution methods!)
5)Re scale the standard game to 3rd -5th ed size.Bigger games can be covered in an expansion like Apoc.
A proper re-write focusing on game play, should reduce the massive amount of pointless complication/rules bloat, while allowing naturally occurring tactical depth to replace the 'heavy handed special rules.'That restrict the game play in an artificial way.
1) All GMC/SHVs have a minimum cost of 400 points (pretty self-explanatory here, and rule 2 further limits the use of these)
2) No single unit may cost more than 20% of your total points (no more LoW in non-apoc games)
3) Only 2 detachments are allowed per 1500 points. Decurion-style detachments only count as 1 detachment, but auxiliaries within the detachment must be unique. (Superfriends lists now require larger games)
4) ICs may only join units from their own codex (90% of deathstars are now illegal).
5) Glancing hits still remove hull points, but a vehicle cannot be destroyed by a glancing hit (this way, a vehicle may be weakened by mid-strength weapons, but you have to bring in the big guns to remove them completely)
jade_angel wrote:I can't quite tell how serious you're being here, but how about eliminating every faction except Imperial Guard, Ultramarines and Chaos Space Marines?
I'm being fairly serious. Those factions either need significant nerfs, or else, they need to be scrapped.
In fact, GW doesn't appear to be nerfing those factions.
Got to say I've never seen someone complain about Ravenwing and Scars before. Or be such a fan of scrapping armies.
As for my 5 changes: 1. Sniper weapons ignore Look out Sir.
2. Charge from Outflank.
3. Go back to 6th edition Jink. Maybe add minimum movement for the jink save.
4. Night Fighting gives +1 cover not Stealth.
5. No more random Warlord traits.
2. Armies can take army wide special rules/modified force org charts through the use of optional "rules packs" like the 30k Rites of War that have positives and negatives.
3. Completely rewrite the Psyker rules so that they function and provide utility/interesting attacks, but no game breaking effect (invisible death stars).
4. Balance, balance, balance. Every army should be able to/be required to participate in every phase. In other words, every army gets Transports, Vehicles, Psykers, viable shooting, viable close combat, etc. For most armies, there are whole chapters of the rules you don't really need to know. I play Tau Empire. I don't REALLY need to know how the Psychic Phase works or the Assault Phase. So far as I'm concerned, there is no Psychic Phase and the Assault Phase is when my Crisis Suits jump back into cover.
5. Create a mechanism where rules can be periodically updated. The fact that there is no regular FAQ schedule for a game this popular is insane.
jade_angel wrote:I can't quite tell how serious you're being here, but how about eliminating every faction except Imperial Guard, Ultramarines and Chaos Space Marines?
I'm being fairly serious. Those factions either need significant nerfs, or else, they need to be scrapped.
In fact, GW doesn't appear to be nerfing those factions.
True enough, they don't. Trouble is, nobody can agree on quite how. There's a lot that could be done, but some of it wouldn't be useful, or would result in making the nerfed unit completely useless. (For example, T2 Warp Spiders with the deathspinner becoming S1 AP- Rending and no flickerjump or jet pack move, or 20ppm Fire Warriors, which are both suggestions I've actually heard mooted at least once.)
Also, as I've pointed out, it's not usually that every single unit in a given codex is broken: put together a list to beat 2000 points of Tau, where the Tau list has the following restrictions: No AV>12, no 2+, no S10, no T>5, no weapons that innately ignore cover saves or line of sight (flamers, SMS), no AP1. Not hard, eh? Indeed, I think a Tau list built to those restrictions would have serious difficulty against anything better than mid-tier. Or Eldar limited to a single CAD only, no psykers, no scatter lasers, no shuriken cannons on non-vehicle models, no lords of war, no more than one unit of Warp Spiders. Not too hard, eh?
Chaos, Orks, Tyranids and Dark Eldar need some significant improvements, but nobody seems to agree on quite what.
jade_angel wrote:True enough, they don't. Trouble is, nobody can agree on quite how.
There's always the way of the squats. That would balance things real quick.
There's a lot that could be done, but some of it wouldn't be useful, or would result in making the nerfed unit completely useless. (For example, T2 Warp Spiders with the deathspinner becoming S1 AP- Rending and no flickerjump or jet pack move, or 20ppm Fire Warriors, which are both suggestions I've actually heard mooted at least once.)
Also, as I've pointed out, it's not usually that every single unit in a given codex is broken: put together a list to beat 2000 points of Tau, where the Tau list has the following restrictions: No AV>12, no 2+, no S10, no T>5, no weapons that innately ignore cover saves or line of sight (flamers, SMS), no AP1. Not hard, eh? Indeed, I think a Tau list built to those restrictions would have serious difficulty against anything better than mid-tier. Or Eldar limited to a single CAD only, no psykers, no scatter lasers, no shuriken cannons on non-vehicle models, no lords of war, no more than one unit of Warp Spiders. Not too hard, eh?
Chaos, Orks, Tyranids and Dark Eldar need some significant improvements, but nobody seems to agree on quite what.
The problem is that different codices are written by different people, the people writing the rules are the people writing the fluff, and the rules are written by fanboys trying to sell models.
This is further exacerbated that GW insists on a cyclical release cycle as opposed to putting out all of the rules at once.
Put me (or practically any non-TFG on dakka forums) in the GW development office, and I'll balance things in no time, just so long as everything is released at once.
jade_angel wrote:True enough, they don't. Trouble is, nobody can agree on quite how.
There's always the way of the squats. That would balance things real quick.
Well, that it would, at the cost of reducing variety quite a bit. I'll say straight out, I don't like that idea very much: if I want nothing but MEQ-vs-MEQ, 30k is right over there.
<snip>
Put me (or practically any non-TFG on dakka forums) in the GW development office, and I'll balance things in no time, just so long as everything is released at once.
Now that's a good point. Coordination is kinda the key. Most of the broken crap comes from combos that the designers missed. There's some stuff that's broken in a vacuum, but the worst excesses are combos.
1. In shooting, any unit may give one of its weapons all of the following: split fire, precision shots on all hits, successful rolls to-wound inflict two wounds, and all penetrating hits roll an additional time on the damage chart then discard one result. The unit must contain a character from its own data sheet and must pass a leadership check. I.e., this cannot usually be done by Knights, MCs, flyers or even scatbikes, because the rule requires characters.
2. Formations and units in an army list add unique objectives. E.g. if you have a detachment that is majority tanks with av13 or higher, they score for being in the opponent's DZ, if you have a detachment that is majority indirect ordnance, they score by firing off the table. If you bring a super heavy, your opponent scores twice as much as he would for destroying it. If you bring a titan-size model (not a knight), you lose four VP from.the beginning of the game.
3. Only the primary detachment can deploy normally on the field. Everything else has to roll for ongoing reserves, beginning at deployment, then first turn, etc. For every HQ in your army, you may adjust a single reserve roll by one point.
I'm pretty sure that the existence of Eldar is not in the core rules. So I'm pretty sure eliminating them has anything to do with this thread.
1. Bring back some form of mandatory force organization. I personally love the idea of having an army that's say, all raveners/trigons/mawlocs and nothing else or something cool and thematic, but its all so unbalanced and meta-gamey that people just min-max with wacky allies and nonsense.
2. No overwatch. No snap shots. Would a space marine really 360' no-scope a missle launcher with precious limited ammunition? I think the emperor's finest would at least take the time to aim.
3. Make the psychic phase like fantasy. Granted I've never played fantasy, but I heard it was balanced. You should at least be able to pick your powers, just remove invisibility.
4. Updated vehicle hullpoints or an improved damage table. It seems like GW knew how much vehicles sucked and made Wraithknights and Riptides GMCs to troll us. And by 'us' I mean people who aren't heartless sociopaths.
5. Remove relentless from the game. Only monstrous creatures and vehicles can move/shoot heavy weapons. I highly doubt a bike going 70mph or higher can accurately shoot a heavy machine gun. I don't care what future this is, physics still exist.
Traditio wrote: Put me (or practically any non-TFG on dakka forums) in the GW development office, and I'll balance things in no time, just so long as everything is released at once.
I would go back to playing 5th Ed if they put you in the design team. Your ideas aren't exactly superb. Now, If they invited Matt Ward back... That'd be a different story.
3) Fix the Weapon Skill table to be less unintuitive
What's unintuitive about it? Higher WS hits on 3's, lower on 4 unless you're against more than double your WS (So, say 3 against 7) then you hit on 5's.
Or did you mean something else? Sorry, just curious/confused.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: 1.) Revert the rules back to 3rd edition's simplicity (this, by extension, would also mean rerolling the codexes too)
2.) From that, remove AP and install Old Fantasy's system of armor piercing based on strength.
3.) remove cover saves. Cover provides a To Hit modifier like in Old Fantasy
4 and 5.) Sit back with some popcorn and watch the hilarity ensue.
So, cover can cause modifiers, but it should be modifiers to the firing models' BS, not the to hit roll. Then you can change the table to, for example, bs4 and bs5 both hit on a 3+ normally, but bs5 keeps the 3+ roll when it fires into cover, and bs4 drops to 4+. If you are rewriting all the codexes back to 3rd edition standard anyway, you can bump up the models' BS so that you use more of the range.
1. Do away with all random movement. Difficult terrain becomes half distance while you're in the terrain. Run becomes half your movement. Charge becomes movement + 3" or similar.
2. Battle Brothers allies can no longer join other faction units, cast blessings on each other, or ride in their transports. With the VERY SMALL exception of Inquisitors.
3. Look Out Sir passes automatically, but you must declare if you'll LOS before the enemy rolls to hit, exactly like jinks; and its per shooting attack rather than per allocated wound. No more tanking hits on an IC until they're nearly dead and then mooks jumping in front of them; make it all or nothing.
4. Fix up movement so that everything is less mobile, except for infantry. Make facing more important. In effect reverse the movement rules so that bog standard infantry are the least affected by movement hampering abilities and the best affected by cover. Tanks should NOT be more nimble than a dude on foot. Faster under ideal situations, but it shouldn't be able to pirouette. For example this might look like:
- Infantry are not affected by difficult terrain
- Bikes, Cavalry are affected by difficult terrain
- Tanks must spend 25% of their movement to turn 90 degrees: or a free 45 degree turn for every 25% of forward movement. They must move in the direction of their facing (except for skimmers).
- While you're fixing up tank movement, add some very hard rules about firing arcs. Every weapon on a vehicle should have a well defined firing arc, not just whatever it looks like on the model.
I think it defeats the purpose of bringing battle brother allies if I get no benefit from bringing them like with Allies of convenience... As an Armies of the Imperium guy, I'll just have to happily ally with Eldar all the time
Tactical_Spam wrote: I think it defeats the purpose of bringing battle brother allies if I get no benefit from bringing them like with Allies of convenience... As an Armies of the Imperium guy, I'll just have to happily ally with Eldar all the time
Considering the purpose of Battle Brothers 99% of the time is to create unstoppable psychic deathstars and completely counteract all the problems that exist within a unit, I'm ok with that.
Battle Brothers just make the game even more impossible to balance than it already is.
shyzo wrote: If you could change 5 things in the core rules, what would those be?
Hmm, tough to decide what my top 5 would be, but here's a few:
1. Armour Saves are only negated if AP is less than the armour value, if AP is equal it's a -2 penalty to the save, and if the AP is one worse (higher) then it's a -1. This means that AP4 weapons reduce marines to 4+, while AP3 reduces them to 5+, and AP2 or better punches straight through. It makes weapons with an AP value that's close a bit more useful, particularly AP4 weapons which are currently pretty underwhelming thanks to the large amounts of 3+ armour out there.
2. Ranged weapons gain hit bonuses at close range and against large targets. Essentially this would work as follows; +1 to-Hit within 8", +1 to-Hit vs vehicles (+1 more if they moved less than 6"), +2 to-Hit vs buildings. Right now close range firefights feel incredibly inaccurate, and vehicles and freakin' buildings are no easier to hit than a gretchin cowering behind a wall.
3. Chainswords gain minimum Strength 4 and AP5; a god-damned chainsaw sword shouldn't be equivalent to an unaugmented human slapping you. Shotguns (possibly other weapons) gain Quick to Fire, letting them fire one shot at full BS for Overwatch. There's probably a bunch of other weak weapons in need of tweaks, but these are the ones that stand out in most of my games.
4. Nerf And They Shall Know No Fear; if a unit falls back but is caught by Sweeping Advance, then it may not attack at all in the next round of combat. Instead of immunity to Fear, its penalty is reduced to -1 Weapon Skill, right now with so many marine armies Fear is basically pointless, yet it's on practically every Warlord Trait table.
5. Nerf assault grenades; now that everyone has them, except for some weird exceptions that probably should, defending obstacles is pointless. I'd rather see a different effect like forcing the enemy to re-roll successful to-Hit rolls in the first round; it's not quite as fluffy, but isn't as severe as eliminating their advantage completely.
Damn, really I need 6, since several of these nerf combat units even more than they already have; one house-rule I've used and like is that a unit charges as if it is Fleet if it does nothing in the Shooting phase, which can make charges a lot easier for units that have to get into combat.
Tactical_Spam wrote: I think it defeats the purpose of bringing battle brother allies if I get no benefit from bringing them like with Allies of convenience... As an Armies of the Imperium guy, I'll just have to happily ally with Eldar all the time
Considering the purpose of Battle Brothers 99% of the time is to create unstoppable psychic deathstars and completely counteract all the problems that exist within a unit, I'm ok with that.
Battle Brothers just make the game even more impossible to balance than it already is.
They aren't unstoppable deathstars, not by a long shot. Send one Culexus Assassin in there. No more invisibility. You've got a couple Vindicators? Pound those fether's into oblivion. They aren't unstoppable.
shyzo wrote: If you could change 5 things in the core rules, what would those be?
Hmm, tough to decide what my top 5 would be, but here's a few:
1. Armour Saves are only negated if AP is less than the armour value, if AP is equal it's a -2 penalty to the save, and if the AP is one worse (higher) then it's a -1. This means that AP4 weapons reduce marines to 4+, while AP3 reduces them to 5+, and AP2 or better punches straight through. It makes weapons with an AP value that's close a bit more useful, particularly AP4 weapons which are currently pretty underwhelming thanks to the large amounts of 3+ armour out there.
2. Ranged weapons gain hit bonuses at close range and against large targets. Essentially this would work as follows; +1 to-Hit within 8", +1 to-Hit vs vehicles (+1 more if they moved less than 6"), +2 to-Hit vs buildings. Right now close range firefights feel incredibly inaccurate, and vehicles and freakin' buildings are no easier to hit than a gretchin cowering behind a wall.
3. Chainswords gain minimum Strength 4 and AP5; a god-damned chainsaw sword shouldn't be equivalent to an unaugmented human slapping you. Shotguns (possibly other weapons) gain Quick to Fire, letting them fire one shot at full BS for Overwatch. There's probably a bunch of other weak weapons in need of tweaks, but these are the ones that stand out in most of my games.
4. Nerf And They Shall Know No Fear; if a unit falls back but is caught by Sweeping Advance, then it may not attack at all in the next round of combat. Instead of immunity to Fear, its penalty is reduced to -1 Weapon Skill, right now with so many marine armies Fear is basically pointless, yet it's on practically every Warlord Trait table.
5. Nerf assault grenades; now that everyone has them, except for some weird exceptions that probably should, defending obstacles is pointless. I'd rather see a different effect like forcing the enemy to re-roll successful to-Hit rolls in the first round; it's not quite as fluffy, but isn't as severe as eliminating their advantage completely.
Damn, really I need 6, since several of these nerf combat units even more than they already have; one house-rule I've used and like is that a unit charges as if it is Fleet if it does nothing in the Shooting phase, which can make charges a lot easier for units that have to get into combat.
1: Marines do not need another thing negating their armour saves.
2: Great, can't wait to get Devilfish rushed and blown off the board because those fire warriors have 50 shots at BS4
3: What is the purpose of this?
4: If I have to use ATSKNF, I am being tabled. Fear is the most useless USR in the game.
5: Because Assault units need another nerf right?
shyzo wrote: If you could change 5 things in the core rules, what would those be?
Hmm, tough to decide what my top 5 would be, but here's a few:
1. Armour Saves are only negated if AP is less than the armour value, if AP is equal it's a -2 penalty to the save, and if the AP is one worse (higher) then it's a -1. This means that AP4 weapons reduce marines to 4+, while AP3 reduces them to 5+, and AP2 or better punches straight through. It makes weapons with an AP value that's close a bit more useful, particularly AP4 weapons which are currently pretty underwhelming thanks to the large amounts of 3+ armour out there.
2. Ranged weapons gain hit bonuses at close range and against large targets. Essentially this would work as follows; +1 to-Hit within 8", +1 to-Hit vs vehicles (+1 more if they moved less than 6"), +2 to-Hit vs buildings. Right now close range firefights feel incredibly inaccurate, and vehicles and freakin' buildings are no easier to hit than a gretchin cowering behind a wall.
3. Chainswords gain minimum Strength 4 and AP5; a god-damned chainsaw sword shouldn't be equivalent to an unaugmented human slapping you. Shotguns (possibly other weapons) gain Quick to Fire, letting them fire one shot at full BS for Overwatch. There's probably a bunch of other weak weapons in need of tweaks, but these are the ones that stand out in most of my games.
4. Nerf And They Shall Know No Fear; if a unit falls back but is caught by Sweeping Advance, then it may not attack at all in the next round of combat. Instead of immunity to Fear, its penalty is reduced to -1 Weapon Skill, right now with so many marine armies Fear is basically pointless, yet it's on practically every Warlord Trait table.
5. Nerf assault grenades; now that everyone has them, except for some weird exceptions that probably should, defending obstacles is pointless. I'd rather see a different effect like forcing the enemy to re-roll successful to-Hit rolls in the first round; it's not quite as fluffy, but isn't as severe as eliminating their advantage completely.
Damn, really I need 6, since several of these nerf combat units even more than they already have; one house-rule I've used and like is that a unit charges as if it is Fleet if it does nothing in the Shooting phase, which can make charges a lot easier for units that have to get into combat.
1: Marines do not need another thing negating their armour saves.
2: Great, can't wait to get Devilfish rushed and blown off the board because those fire warriors have 50 shots at BS4
3: What is the purpose of this?
4: If I have to use ATSKNF, I am being tabled. Fear is the most useless USR in the game.
5: Because Assault units need another nerf right?
I should point out that these wouldn't be intended as bolt on directly to the current edition as-is, stuff would need some balancing to account for it; the question didn't specify "how would you change the current rules without requiring changes to codexes because those are perfect as they are" after all. So:
1. Actually this makes Marines more resistant to AP3, there isn't a whole lot of AP4 out there these days anyway.
2. Then make it only if the unit didn't move then. That issue is partly a problem with how units can shoot when disembarking from vehicles (and largely thanks to Rapid Fire being significantly buffed for no reason), with 5 tweaks I can't fix everything 3. Because chainswords and shotguns suck badly; chainswords are chainsaws described in the fluff as carving through armour, but they're about as effective as a wet paper bag in-game. Shotguns are fine for shooting then assaulting, but just horrible if you're the one that gets charged, which makes little sense; if they're so convenient to fire while charging, then they should be similarly convenient to fire when being charged. It might be a waste of one of five when there are more major problems, but I want these weapons to actually serve some kind of purpose dammit!
4. Fear is useless because of ATSKNF, though I'll admit it could with being non-dependent on a Leadership test, as many armies have high leadership anyway, still, ATSKNF is basically one of those bad game-design rules that effectively eliminates a bunch of penalties that everyone else has, which messes around with core mechanics far too much. It may not fix the game, but it's a rule that I hate as when it does kick in it's largely annoying.
5. Again, can't fix everything. It's not intended to nerf assault units specifically, but to eliminate the fact that defending obstacles is pointless; either defending obstacles should just be removed from the game (so grenades are just for throwing) or assault grenades need to change so there's a reason to not just fight everyone out in the open. That also has issues with things like cover saves being useless on well armoured units and such, but again, the game has a lot more than five problems that need fixing
shyzo wrote: If you could change 5 things in the core rules, what would those be?
Hmm, tough to decide what my top 5 would be, but here's a few:
1. Armour Saves are only negated if AP is less than the armour value, if AP is equal it's a -2 penalty to the save, and if the AP is one worse (higher) then it's a -1. This means that AP4 weapons reduce marines to 4+, while AP3 reduces them to 5+, and AP2 or better punches straight through. It makes weapons with an AP value that's close a bit more useful, particularly AP4 weapons which are currently pretty underwhelming thanks to the large amounts of 3+ armour out there.
2. Ranged weapons gain hit bonuses at close range and against large targets. Essentially this would work as follows; +1 to-Hit within 8", +1 to-Hit vs vehicles (+1 more if they moved less than 6"), +2 to-Hit vs buildings. Right now close range firefights feel incredibly inaccurate, and vehicles and freakin' buildings are no easier to hit than a gretchin cowering behind a wall.
3. Chainswords gain minimum Strength 4 and AP5; a god-damned chainsaw sword shouldn't be equivalent to an unaugmented human slapping you. Shotguns (possibly other weapons) gain Quick to Fire, letting them fire one shot at full BS for Overwatch. There's probably a bunch of other weak weapons in need of tweaks, but these are the ones that stand out in most of my games.
4. Nerf And They Shall Know No Fear; if a unit falls back but is caught by Sweeping Advance, then it may not attack at all in the next round of combat. Instead of immunity to Fear, its penalty is reduced to -1 Weapon Skill, right now with so many marine armies Fear is basically pointless, yet it's on practically every Warlord Trait table.
5. Nerf assault grenades; now that everyone has them, except for some weird exceptions that probably should, defending obstacles is pointless. I'd rather see a different effect like forcing the enemy to re-roll successful to-Hit rolls in the first round; it's not quite as fluffy, but isn't as severe as eliminating their advantage completely.
Damn, really I need 6, since several of these nerf combat units even more than they already have; one house-rule I've used and like is that a unit charges as if it is Fleet if it does nothing in the Shooting phase, which can make charges a lot easier for units that have to get into combat.
1: Marines do not need another thing negating their armour saves.
2: Great, can't wait to get Devilfish rushed and blown off the board because those fire warriors have 50 shots at BS4
3: What is the purpose of this?
4: If I have to use ATSKNF, I am being tabled. Fear is the most useless USR in the game.
5: Because Assault units need another nerf right?
I should point out that these wouldn't be intended as bolt on directly to the current edition as-is, stuff would need some balancing to account for it; the question didn't specify "how would you change the current rules without requiring changes to codexes because those are perfect as they are" after all. So:
1. Actually this makes Marines more resistant to AP3, there isn't a whole lot of AP4 out there these days anyway.
2. Then make it only if the unit didn't move then. That issue is partly a problem with how units can shoot when disembarking from vehicles (and largely thanks to Rapid Fire being significantly buffed for no reason), with 5 tweaks I can't fix everything 3. Because chainswords and shotguns suck badly; chainswords are chainsaws described in the fluff as carving through armour, but they're about as effective as a wet paper bag in-game. Shotguns are fine for shooting then assaulting, but just horrible if you're the one that gets charged, which makes little sense; if they're so convenient to fire while charging, then they should be similarly convenient to fire when being charged. It might be a waste of one of five when there are more major problems, but I want these weapons to actually serve some kind of purpose dammit!
4. Fear is useless because of ATSKNF, though I'll admit it could with being non-dependent on a Leadership test, as many armies have high leadership anyway, still, ATSKNF is basically one of those bad game-design rules that effectively eliminates a bunch of penalties that everyone else has, which messes around with core mechanics far too much. It may not fix the game, but it's a rule that I hate as when it does kick in it's largely annoying.
5. Again, can't fix everything. It's not intended to nerf assault units specifically, but to eliminate the fact that defending obstacles is pointless; either defending obstacles should just be removed from the game (so grenades are just for throwing) or assault grenades need to change so there's a reason to not just fight everyone out in the open. That also has issues with things like cover saves being useless on well armoured units and such, but again, the game has a lot more than five problems that need fixing
Admittedly, my gaming group house ruled Fear to "Pass a Ld test or flee combat" just like when you lose combat. Considering none of the people I play regularly have any large amount of Fear units around, this was essentially a none issue.
3) A change to how grav weaponry functions (still good vs. MCs and other such things, but weaker against infantry. maybe to wound roll based on the 'bulk-level' of the model?)
3.5) make it so vehicles can only loose 1 HP to glances per turn? the rest must be pens?
4) Give vehicles an armor save (related to AV or a 'per vehicle' number)
5) change WS to function more like "to wound" rolls. same WS = 4+, 1 better WS = 3+ (so on and so forth)
All in all I think there needs to be some simplification, but at the same time there should be a bit more 'common sense' rulings, things like toe-in cover saves being gone for giant creatures and what not.
change WS to function more like "to wound" rolls. same WS = 4+, 1 better WS = 3+ (so on and so forth)
That's what I want too. My idea was:
Roll a D6 and apply the following modifiers:
+1 if your WS is higher than the targets WS +2 if your WS is double the targets WS -1 if your WS is lower than the targets WS -2 if your WS is half the targets WS or lower
If the result is 4+, you score a hit. So the big chart is replaced with a simple paragraph, and it's now possible to hit on 2+ or only 6. And we're no longer bound to a 1-10 system.
1. Cover is no longer a save, but affects shooting unit's Ballistic Skill. Cover is either "Light" or "Heavy". Light imposes a -1 BS. Heavy imposes a -2.
2. Armor Penetration for non-vehicles is now a save modifier, not an instant-success. Boltguns, for example would become -1 AP. Guardsmen have Armor Save 5+. So now Guardsmen can save a boltgun shot on a 6+ instead of instant dead.
3. Cover is on a Unit against Unit basis, using the majority of models. If 3/4 of your unit is behind a wall, then they all get a cover save.
4. Unit owner assigns wounds to models in the unit. All wounds are assigned to one model until it is removed, then the owner assigns remaining wounds to another model and so on.
5. Special and Heavy Weapons can fire at a different target than the rest of the unit.
Problem with cover being To-Hit modifier is the way it will affect low-BS units (Ork Boyz). If they shoot in heavy cover, is their BS 0? Or is it 1? If so, there is no difference between light and heavy cover for Orks.
shyzo wrote: Problem with cover being To-Hit modifier is the way it will affect low-BS units (Ork Boyz). If they shoot in heavy cover, is their BS 0? Or is it 1? If so, there is no difference between light and heavy cover for Orks.
Yay this sort of thread is really useful to people re-writing the game like I am.
I think this is my personal top 5 core rules to change
1. Redesign army selection to limit the more obnoxious things. Percentages seem like a useful if cumbersome method. e.g. no single model can cost more than 20% of total army points
2. Re-write the psychic phase, closer to 6th than 7th.
3. Vehicle damage table, hull points and glancing hits. Make glances a -2 on the damage table. Anything under a result of 4 is no effect. Replace 'explodes' with 'lose 2 hull points'
4. Remove pre-game rolls - warlord traits, psychic powers
5. Replace random movement distances (run, difficult terrain, charge)
and the honourable mentions: Look Out Sir and Challenges can both be removed entirely.
Keep 'em coming. I'm tallying up the different suggestions as a guide for writing my own edition exactly like I did with a similar thread on Warseer last year. I'll post the tally after more people chime in.
Zustiur wrote: Yay this sort of thread is really useful to people re-writing the game like I am.
I think this is my personal top 5 core rules to change
1. Redesign army selection to limit the more obnoxious things. Percentages seem like a useful if cumbersome method. e.g. no single model can cost more than 20% of total army points
2. Re-write the psychic phase, closer to 6th than 7th.
3. Vehicle damage table, hull points and glancing hits. Make glances a -2 on the damage table. Anything under a result of 4 is no effect. Replace 'explodes' with 'lose 2 hull points'
4. Remove pre-game rolls - warlord traits, psychic powers
5. Replace random movement distances (run, difficult terrain, charge)
and the honourable mentions: Look Out Sir and Challenges can both be removed entirely.
Keep 'em coming. I'm tallying up the different suggestions as a guide for writing my own edition exactly like I did with a similar thread on Warseer last year. I'll post the tally after more people chime in.
1) It's less the game and more people abusing the best things I limitation such as percentages would help, but in a day and age where people are asking for simplified rules (not AOS simplified mind you) it could lead to whining
2) I like 7th's psychic phase. it's not to broken (unless the player chooses to break it) and it functions fine in both fantasy and 40k, though it does go against that 'simple' ideal
3) I like 4) I'm not sure on this one. I know a lot of players whine about it, but I don't honestly think it's that bad
5) Kinda sorta agree. there needs to be some degree of random, but something like adding you're movement to charge ranges or something along those lines would be nice
5.5) No challenges are cool I think if the rule was reworked so ONLY challenges could hit inside of challenges, and spare wounds were discarded rather than turned on the squad, it would be better, but I wouldn't remove it.
1) WS vs WS table now uses exact same table as Toughness vs Strength.
2) Charge distance is 4" Plus Initiative. (Orks 'ere we go adds 2 to charge distance, +4 on a waagh)
3) MCs and Vehicles both use the VDT, VDT is now a bonus to wounds caused by AP3/2/1 weapons. Weapons with AP currently at 4 or worse can only glance. Explodes is changed to +D3HP. Tank type vehicles have a 6++ armor plating save, Heavy type vehicles have 5++ armor plating.
4) AP 4, 3, 2, 1 reworked to be -1, -2, -3, -4 to armor save. AP5/6 removed.
5) Charging is allowed when disembarking from a stationary vehicle, and outflanking. Charging from Deep Strike or Infiltrate is allowed if the unit forgoes its shooting phase, and results in a disorganized charge.
6) Morale is....fixed. This will take more than 1 specific change, but basically, morale affects everybody SOMEHOW.
1) It's less the game and more people abusing the best things I limitation such as percentages would help, but in a day and age where people are asking for simplified rules (not AOS simplified mind you) it could lead to whining
2) I like 7th's psychic phase. it's not to broken (unless the player chooses to break it) and it functions fine in both fantasy and 40k, though it does go against that 'simple' ideal
3) I like 4) I'm not sure on this one. I know a lot of players whine about it, but I don't honestly think it's that bad
5) Kinda sorta agree. there needs to be some degree of random, but something like adding you're movement to charge ranges or something along those lines would be nice
5.5) No challenges are cool I think if the rule was reworked so ONLY challenges could hit inside of challenges, and spare wounds were discarded rather than turned on the squad, it would be better, but I wouldn't remove it.
2) Yes and no. It is open to abuse in its 7th ed form. Also the tyranid player in my group demonstrated to me just how messed up it is. For the express purpose of demonstrating, he took a 1000pt army entirely of zoanthropes. He failed to kill a single unit in my army before I tabled him. It was at this point that I wrote my draft rules for the Psychic phase. He's been a lot happier ever since.
4) Pregame rolls aren't 'that bad' in terms of overpowering or unbalancing. In fact the opposite is true. Often we forget to roll for warlord traits, or forget to use them after rolling. They just don't make a difference, so why waste 2 pages of core rules + a table in every codex? It'd be better to just assign a fluffy rule to each possible warlord in the codex and be done with it. At least they might get remembered that way because they might factor into your decision for choosing that warlord.
5) That's what I get for oversimplifying to fit the format of this thread. Charge still has an element of random in my rules. It's half-unit-type-speed +1d6". So normal infantry get 3+1d6", giving a range of 4-10" with an average of 6.5". The rest are just fixed numbers though.
Pop on over to my thread, I'd love your input. Just PM me here if you don't have an account on Warseer.
IF the force organisation system did its job properly , we would not need all this 'add on stuff' like Detachments and Formations.
1)Force organisation is now based on rarity of units in 6 to 12 themed forces for each faction.
HQ allows 2 to 8 Common units,
For every 2 Common units, you may take a Support unit,
For every 2 Support units you may take a Specialized unit.
This allows a series of balanced fluffy lists , suitable for everyone!
2)Do we need a separate psychic phase?
3)Vehicles should be covered the same as every other unit in the game with the new core rules.
4)Pre game rolls , no, just not fun or fluffy just randum.
5) Have movement rates and give limited modifiers for terrain, to remove more randum rolls from the game.
1. No toe in cover nonsense. partial cover is based on direction of firing unit.
2. Cover is stated has pros and cons. Your unit moves into cover, you state "my pathfinders are in cover" and mark them with a token" so there is no true line of sight crud. If you want that save for being in cover, you move slow.
3. Ruins are dangerous terrain. This is personal, I feel like the game has just turned into, lets load the table with ruins, because everything is ap2 or ap3, so we might as well all have a 50% chance to live. That isn't a really good solution to a bigger problem though. I do think there should be stated terrain types with more pros/cons. It should be easy for us to state what terrain is what when the game starts.
4. Psychic.... everything. Powers, random rolling, the phase, all changed. Don't know to what, but it kind of stinks right now. Never heard a good word about it. No more random ass rolls, put point values on that stuff. Nut up and do some game balance or something! My Rune priest with Runic Axe and Bike, rolling with thunderwolves all ready to punch face totally stinks when he wakes up on the wrong side of the bed and knows how to overwatch at full ballistic skill or some nonsense. "Sorry guys, didn't have my ale this morning..."
5. My biggest want/need: More specific game types. We have Maelstrom and Eternal war. I want Escalation back, and I know a good grip of people would like it back too. It had some good rules! It makes it easy to get games with giant stuff without giving your list away. Right now I don't want to show up to the shop with a warhound, I might face someone new, or no one at all. I don't want to post "Hey guys, looking for a game with my warhound" online, because then its tailor central. Just bring all your drop pod haywire stuff. If I could say, "Looking for a 3K escalation game" you know what is up. I am bringing something big, and inviting you to do the same. It isn't apoc, so no nillywilly crap, just some big lords of war slapping each other in the face.
As soon as it becomes apoc, all bets are off and its the most cheesy invisible ++2 rerolling stuff ever. I know because I do it too! I know Ill be facing 3 taunar suits and the biggest farsight bomb in existance while 6 wraithknights shoot me. Its just a cheesefest. Bring back escalation and give us more game modes.
1. Re-roll de-buff or no rerolls.
2. Make vehicles less likely to Explode.
3. Make perils of the warp ALL bad outcomes.
4. Allow jump/jet infantry vector strike + assault fliers.
5. Either spread the D around to other factions or remove entirely.
As promised, a summary of this thread so far. You may feel I've over generalized some of the categories but that's the only way to avoid listing 1000 different issues.
1: Scrap Instant Death and the vehicle Explodes result. Set up a multiple-wounds mechanic to replace it.
2: Blasts really, truly need to be rethought. Artillery shouldn't be able to completely invalidate single-target attacks by doing the same damage only more accurately in a wider area. I'm a fan of the Warmachine/WHFB central-target power/blast damage power system, but any way you look at it there shouldn't be blasts that do the same thing as lascannons/railguns in an AoE.
3: Transports. The time punishment for getting into or out of them makes them feel clunky and ineffective. Let them move further and drop people off, let people charge out of them.
4: Reserves. Bringing units in piecemeal feels wonky, the 'if you have no units on the table you lose' rule is a bizarrely punishing gimmick, and units that pop up out of nowhere to explode your big thing when you can't do anything about it was an awful design decision. Make people write down in secret when their stuff is coming on, and/or just make the Deep Strikers deploy in no-man's-land.
5: Random army-building elements. Kill them. Kill them with fire. Pick your Warlord Trait (with choices dependent on which character is your Warlord, give you more reason to use different characters), pick or purchase psychic powers. Powers and Warlord Traits would need an overhaul along with this, but you should be able to plan your army instead of having a random chance of characters doing what you want or not doing what you want.
AnomanderRake wrote: 1: Scrap Instant Death and the vehicle Explodes result. Set up a multiple-wounds mechanic to replace it.
2: Blasts really, truly need to be rethought. Artillery shouldn't be able to completely invalidate single-target attacks by doing the same damage only more accurately in a wider area. I'm a fan of the Warmachine/WHFB central-target power/blast damage power system, but any way you look at it there shouldn't be blasts that do the same thing as lascannons/railguns in an AoE.
3: Transports. The time punishment for getting into or out of them makes them feel clunky and ineffective. Let them move further and drop people off, let people charge out of them.
4: Reserves. Bringing units in piecemeal feels wonky, the 'if you have no units on the table you lose' rule is a bizarrely punishing gimmick, and units that pop up out of nowhere to explode your big thing when you can't do anything about it was an awful design decision. Make people write down in secret when their stuff is coming on, and/or just make the Deep Strikers deploy in no-man's-land.
5: Random army-building elements. Kill them. Kill them with fire. Pick your Warlord Trait (with choices dependent on which character is your Warlord, give you more reason to use different characters), pick or purchase psychic powers. Powers and Warlord Traits would need an overhaul along with this, but you should be able to plan your army instead of having a random chance of characters doing what you want or not doing what you want.
Absolutely yes to all five. AoS has a good way to tackle a multi-wound mechanic. And I think we could ditch templates altogether. Seriously, they only slow the game down. Everyone should be be able to charge out of a transport, with assault transports simply providing a bonus of some sorts. Reserves can be looked at again. And no more randomness. Although that would require a rethink about balance.
@Future War Cultist.
I quite like the A.O.S game turn mechanic over the alternating game turn of WHFB for 40k.(It may need a few tweeks obviously.)
This could remove the need for over watch.
A simple multi wound mechanic is just to score an extra wound on the target model, for every 2 pips higher than the score required to wound.
EG a 3 wound IC, is hit by a bolt gun and the attacker needs 5+ to wound, they can only score one wound.
However, if the same IC was hit by a melta gun, and the attacker only needed a 2+ to wound.
If the attacker rolled 4 or 5 they score 2 wounds on the IC. If they roll a 6, they score three wounds on the IC.
This means higher strength weapons have a higher proportional chance of causing multiple wounds.
Removing ramdumness is such a massive improvement to 40k rules, , that what little balance exists should not be used as an excuse not to pursue this goal.IMO.
Put me in the camp of, first deal with the writers and their inability to plan or care about their game, camp. If the writer properly plots their game in to proper stages, it isn't that hard to insert mechanics in to it. For example, Unit Type/Unique Special Rules should not indiscriminately replace base rules without properly addressing those base rules. Be clear when a modifier is modifying the stat or afterward (I'm looking at you Thunderwolves and Quantum Shielding). Without this, none of these changes mean anything, and may help address many of them.
AnomanderRake wrote: 1: Scrap Instant Death and the vehicle Explodes result. Set up a multiple-wounds mechanic to replace it.
I slightly disagree on this. Instant Death and Explodes! should be available, but rare and limited to very very specific circumstances. Str D should be an example of this. If it can blow an arm off of a Titan, it should blow through a Terminator Captain or Predator like it was nothing. Admittedly, a multi-Wound capacity could address this if done properly, but maybe also a converse system for Super-Heavies, such as discounting the first 1 or 2 Wounds made by an Attack to show their resiliency to them..
AnomanderRake wrote: 2: Blasts really, truly need to be rethought. Artillery shouldn't be able to completely invalidate single-target attacks by doing the same damage only more accurately in a wider area. I'm a fan of the Warmachine/WHFB central-target power/blast damage power system, but any way you look at it there shouldn't be blasts that do the same thing as lascannons/railguns in an AoE.
Blasts and Artillery are slightly different concepts. While all Artillery should be Blasts, not all Blasts should be Artillery (aka Barrage).
Still, having such attacks reduce in power for most Blasts from the directly hit (under the hole) should represent the loss of energy in most of those circumstances. Still something like a fuel-air explosion or a micro-bomb disbursement system is not as discriminatory or have a significant loss of energy in the area of affect. Much like Instant Death, this could be reserved for very unique circumstances.
AnomanderRake wrote: 3: Transports. The time punishment for getting into or out of them makes them feel clunky and ineffective. Let them move further and drop people off, let people charge out of them.
I disagree to a point. Full basic movement is allowed after Disembarking, after all. I prefer the concept that if the Disembark happens before Vehicle Movement, the unit is treated as normal Movement for the Assault Phase, while if the Disembark happens after Movement, their Charging is Restricted. The Assault Vehicle rule would then discount these Restrictions. Maybe if the Vehicle did a Combat Move, they can do a Disordered Charge, but cannot Charge if the Vehicle did a Cruising Move. The Assault Vehicle rule can either move it up one like Fast does for Shooting, or completely remove it (in unique situations).
Part of the problem lies in "Threat Range" (to use the WMH term). There should be little reward for such a Mechanized Assault at that range without some very unique rules allowing for it.
AnomanderRake wrote: 4: Reserves. Bringing units in piecemeal feels wonky, the 'if you have no units on the table you lose' rule is a bizarrely punishing gimmick, and units that pop up out of nowhere to explode your big thing when you can't do anything about it was an awful design decision. Make people write down in secret when their stuff is coming on, and/or just make the Deep Strikers deploy in no-man's-land.
I can agree with this, to a point. However, I would like to see an "either/or" set up. All the Units of a Detachment can all come in on a set, written down Turn from 3 on, or individual units can come in piecemeal. This allows for one of two concepts of warfare to come in to play. Detachments which are organized and cohesive can plan for their entry, while those Units that are separated from their command are coming in without that cohesiveness. Specific Warlord Traits can address certain aspects of this.
AnomanderRake wrote: 5: Random army-building elements. Kill them. Kill them with fire. Pick your Warlord Trait (with choices dependent on which character is your Warlord, give you more reason to use different characters), pick or purchase psychic powers. Powers and Warlord Traits would need an overhaul along with this, but you should be able to plan your army instead of having a random chance of characters doing what you want or not doing what you want.
On this, I can agree. Certain Warlord Traits and Psychic Powers can be "free" for selection or default (say, the first 2 or 3 of a list), with point costs being used to exchange for higher abilities. While not everyone can always have the right Warlord to face the right army, the Warlord did pick his army to suit his style. Same with Psykers. Most do not just show up on the field of battle going, "Now, what do I know how to use today?".
You want that Librarian using Invisibility? Great, you just doubled the cost of your Psyker and now you lose out on certain units or unit upgrades.
1.
A lot of the (unnecessary) randomness. Pre-game. During the game. Random psychic powers. Random Warlord Traits. Random Run and Charge distances. Random table edges. Random rolls for a number of (extra) Attacks. I guess you get my drift here. I appreciate that this is a game, and a game played with dice has a random factor in it. But is it really too much to lower the cost of a Psyker by 5 or 10 points base, and assigning point values to psychic powers depending on their power level? (Just an example, of course.) I am surprised there isn't as much randomness after the game, too.
2.
Super-Heavies (both models and weapons). Lords of War. Gargantuans. Anything simply (too) big or (too) strong so it starts to dominate the table easily over your average infantryman or -woman. I have seen games where entire footslogger armies (hordes like Orks and Tyranids) were decimated by D-templates or a line-up of Heavy 20 or worse weaponry. I understood why the fun in that game was rather one-sided.And I wasn't a participant, just a spectator. The same for an Imperial Knight list. I love the models and the concept. If one appears in any game of 2.000 poonts or more, yay! And yes, they can be brought down. But an all-comer list with a few flamers as opposed to just Lascannon spam...
3.
Turn Sequence. Though I played this game for quite a few years now, I always detested the IGYG system, I Go You Go. Except for rolling saves or something like that, and an Assault Phase where everything gets to kill everything else twice in a full game round of two player turns, there is little interaction between players, and sometimes the wait is long. I play Imperial Guard Infantry. I rarely move. I also play Tyranid Horde. I have plenty to move. In the former, my opponent is often surprised at how fast my Movement Phase has been. In the latter, however, people might as well watch something on TV, listen to some music, read a book, to to the lavatory. Anything but wait until my movement is done. Then the Shooting Phase starts, and almost everything in that army start their Run moves... Just...
4.
CAD/Unbound/Organisation shenannigans. Let's be honest about this. Nobody would mind facing an Imperial Guard army (CAD, or some nice formation) that brought along an allied detachment of Space Marines. It's fluffy, its fine. It has a backstory of a Guard Army that called in a favour, or simply got assistence out of the blue.
But unbound? With all-Riptide or all-Wraithknight lists? Tyranids and Space Wolves 'allying' because it is in their best interest to smash an uprising of Necrons 'allied' with Chaos Daemons and a smudgeon of 'Tau' for that little extra oomph?
5.
In my opinion, the Psychic Phase could use a little overhaul. Again, there is a lot of randomness in harnessing Warp power, after getting irritated by not rolling your favourite powers at the start of the game. Some armies can dominate the Psychic Phase by taking along a lot of Psykers just to increase the dice count. Some powers are meh... others the bomb. Theoretically a bunch of Space Marines could summon lithe Daemonettes to play with the survivors after the battle, but using their enticing forms to assault the enemy.
6+.
There is more. Much more. But I'll leave it at this. Five things asked, five things given.
1) rework the entire cover system so that it becomes a BS modifier instead, and also dependent on range, movement, and target size
2) allow blasts and templates to snapfire and hit flyers (with appropriate harsher scattering rules + having to roll to hit in the case of templates)
3) unify the Armor/Hull Point system with the Toughness/Wounds system once and for all
4) Back to point-purchasable psychic powers, fixed warlord traits, etc etc none of this random tables bs 5) Complete redo on detachments and formations and the FOC system in general. Incentivise single-detachment lists
- vehicles get armor saves
- extend basic small arms range to 36
- add range increments
- allow the use of guns in CC - FNP simply guarantees all units with this rull strikes at their initiative regardless casualties.
I would remove some of the unnecessary random element or reduce it. Run would be a fixed number. Charging would be 1d6 + constant. Move through difficult terrain would be half your move instead of a 1d6, and so on and so on.
People would pick their warlord traits(this would enable people to make their own fluffy HQ hero).
I would make psychic powers non-random, but that would also require rewriting of some of them(so invisibility won't be an autopick).
Change AP system so it won't invalidate a save, only apply a negative modifier to it. If a unit has a save value it can never be made worse than a 6+ save. This would at least allow for heroic save by armor and add to the tension. This would also not make 5+ and 6+ Saves completely useless ina game that is littered with AP 5 weapons. Would also make it more interesting for Guard, Ork, and Tyranid players who can potentially keep their units on the table longer.
1. Grant vehicles an armour save; 5+ for open topped, 4+ standard, 3+ for Heavy and 2+ for Superheavy
2. Barrages pinning at -1 ld again
3. Furious Charge +1 I again
4. Maximum 1 IC per unit
5. Grav cannons become Salvo 1/2 Large Blast
I would extend the range of dice results in close combat, with WS1-10 it's unacceptable that the only results can be 3+,4+,5+. A WS8 dark eldar character hits on a 3+ a unit a of ork boyz or even worse some gretchin, he should hit them on a 2+.
Other than that I would change the grav weapons type, they should have only a single shot in my opinion, not 2-3. Grav cannons with a small blast.
I'd also fix the max amount of dice that can be rolled to cast psychic powers. I'd say no more than 10+D6 regardless of the the amount of psykers involved.
Make "Attacks" a separate stat for weapons altogether. Most melee weapons will have Attacks: User", most ranged weapons will have fixed values, etc.
Add several "decorator" special rules similar to how Warmachine has Granted, Leadership, and Elite Cadre. This way you could do stuff like Unit Aura[Codex: AM, 6", Furious Charge & Counterattack] for Straken, or Model Aura [All, 6", 5+ Invulnerable Save] for Kustom Forcefields.
No Invulnerable Save may be improved to a 2++ unless explicitly allowed.
Feel No Pain may not be improved beyond 3+, unless explicitly allowed.
D does not have Deathblow. Instead, Invulnerable Saves against non-Dispersed D attacks suffer a -2 penalty.
1. Switch to a D10 system so that you can actually have more clearly defined levels of skill in combat/rolls, especially when stats go 1-10.
2. Psychic power reversion: More reliable and less explosive in power.
3. Flyers, and everything around them. I feel like certain armies just come with free counters built in, while others have to over-pay or spam-n-pray. But that's really just a symptom of the problem of flyers to me.
4. Death to random assaults! (or at least, make them much less random.)
5. Random warlord traits/psychic powers/etc. are a thing I hate. I feel like a lot of them are really neat, but half of them need to be built around to really do anything, and getting the right one isn't reliable, therefore all the charts become "Those two things I want and the 'bad rolls.'"
1. Less saturation
2. Ban superheavies and gargantua (permitted only in apo games)
3. Ignore cover reduces better save to 5+
4. Ap6 weapons can only damage AV10, AP 5 AV11 and so on (bye scatterlaser)
5. Infantry in cover can reroll failed 1 on armour save (but not cover or inv save)
2. Ban superheavies and gargantua (permitted only in apo games)
I've wondered what the big deal with superheavies is. It's not like a baneblade is unstoppable while a baneblade's point cost in Russes are pushovers. GMCs have their fair share of issues, but largely related to wound allocation and how they tank damage (and sometimes point cost), they seem to be roughly balanced as far their offensive punch and rules interact with the rest of the game when properly costed (and it's not as though undercosted units are only an issue when it comes to superheavies and GMCs). It just seems like inertia, they used to be apoc only and so they should never been anything but apoc.
Its not matter of inertia, GMC and SH are simplyout of scale in game of 1500-2000 points, models are out of scale, too big in a 48x72 inches battlefield, their rules are inappropriate (strD, 12' move, almost immune to ID and venom, split fire) too many exceptions to the normal rules.
This game imo needs to come back in time when AP2 weapons were rare and so were 2+armour saves, when a heavy 3 weapons was the pinnacle of saturation.
I can agree with that only if also make jink saves invuln instead of cover saves. Otherwise with a max 5+ jink save, orks and DE which are currently low-mid tiers, wouldn't pass turn 3 without being tabled.
1) introduce negative to hit modifiers for range, movement, and cover.
2) introduce multiple wound characteristics to certain weapons and scrap the instant death rule.
3) do something other than the igougo turn structure. Maybe scrap phases altogether, ala bolt action.
4) make AP weapons a modifier to armor saves rather than an all or nothing thing.
5) chill the heck out on super duper buffs/units/saves etc... a re rollable low invulnerable save just shouldn't be a thing, strength D is kind of silly in a game of infantry, etc...
Usually I think the base to hit chance is assuming ideal conditions however, so that's what I was thinking.
Still, it is easier to hit a barn than an outhouse, just like it should be easier to hit a Land Raider standing still than a Land Speeder standing still.
My changes are:
1. Replace all Re-Rolls with Dice Modifiers
2. Go back to 4th or 5th Edition Wound Allocation/Mass Saves instead of the current one all hits on closest model
3. Replace AP with Armor Save Modifiers to make both AP and Armor less all or nothing
4. Change Psychic Power Resolution to something less WFB and more AOS to speed up resolution and eliminate Psychic Dominance
5. Place all movement, except post Assault Consolidation and other "In the Assault Phase" movement, in the Movement phase
I limitation such as percentages would help, but in a day and age where people are asking for simplified rules (not 
I think if the rule was reworked so ONLY challenges could hit inside of challenges, and spare wounds were discarded rather than turned on the squad, it would be better, but I wouldn't remove it.
