Idk. It turns out earth was a undiscovered world to the imperium and decides to get a squad of termies to disable a main part of the main force (NATO) so they teleport a squad of termies in after what they realised what we were using for weapons. The base is a regular base (Basic ammo, 3 or four tanks. 2 or three platoons of marines. And a few mg emplacements. Who would win?

Terminators, if Bolters are AP5 then assault rifles are not even going to come close.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Terminators, if Bolters are AP5 then assault rifles are not even going to come close.

Rules-wise autoguns (which are visually presented as equivalents to real-world rifles) have the same stats as lasguns. So each hit has a 5.5% chance to kill a terminator, and there are a lot of bullets heading their way. The terminators will undoubtedly kill a lot of people before they die but eventually they will go down.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Terminators, if Bolters are AP5 then assault rifles are not even going to come close.

Rules-wise autoguns (which are visually presented as equivalents to real-world rifles) have the same stats as lasguns. So each hit has a 5.5% chance to kill a terminator, and there are a lot of bullets heading their way. The terminators will undoubtedly kill a lot of people before they die but eventually they will go down.

A better question might be: Tac Termies, Cataphractii or Assault (Hammer/Claw?)

Its pretty one sided - especially if the base is not expecting anything - say middle of the night in peacetime......

It will take some time for anyone on the base to know what the hell is going on and by then they should have dealt with the major threats to them - they might loose one or two to lucky shots but that base is toast...............

It might be a little different if the were on a war footing.........don't know enough about the differences.......

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Terminators, if Bolters are AP5 then assault rifles are not even going to come close.

Rules-wise autoguns (which are visually presented as equivalents to real-world rifles) have the same stats as lasguns. So each hit has a 5.5% chance to kill a terminator, and there are a lot of bullets heading their way. The terminators will undoubtedly kill a lot of people before they die but eventually they will go down.

Game mechanics, Perry. Bad boy.

Also the termies win. TDA can shrug off krak missiles, we can't do very much to harm them.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Terminators, if Bolters are AP5 then assault rifles are not even going to come close.

I once killed a whole termie squad with grot blastas, and those are muskets and six shooters.

By that standard, NATO would have no problem, and termies would have a rough time at the OK corral.

Do you mean a FOB? Or a COB? Or a patrol base? It sounds like you're referring to an Infantry Patrol Base, which won't have any tanks, and 3 7.62mm light-medium machine guns. But based on the way they are set up and run, if a terminator squad teleported into the middle of it, it doesn't matter who it is, that Patrol base is gonna get waxed.

The guys inside wouldn't be able to even fire on the terminators because of the problem of possible fratricide, more than likely only 1/3 of the guys are actually awake, all the leadership is in the middle and will be the first to go. If this really happened the platoon would would break contact and move their patrol base to their alternate one- provided anyone actually lived.

If it were any larger- moving up to a FOB size- the exact same scenario would happen just on a larger scale. Guys are taught to not just fire into the middle of the base, so they would all pick up and leave in a hurry. Also, what kind of tanks are we talking here?

 Ignatius wrote:
Do you mean a FOB? Or a COB? Or a patrol base? It sounds like you're referring to an Infantry Patrol Base, which won't have any tanks, and 3 7.62mm light-medium machine guns. But based on the way they are set up and run, if a terminator squad teleported into the middle of it, it doesn't matter who it is, that Patrol base is gonna get waxed.

The guys inside wouldn't be able to even fire on the terminators because of the problem of possible fratricide, more than likely only 1/3 of the guys are actually awake, all the leadership is in the middle and will be the first to go. If this really happened the platoon would would break contact and move their patrol base to their alternate one- provided anyone actually lived.

If it were any larger- moving up to a FOB size- the exact same scenario would happen just on a larger scale. Guys are taught to not just fire into the middle of the base, so they would all pick up and leave in a hurry. Also, what kind of tanks are we talking here?

Were talking about this time of age so if it was west. An Abram's I assume? And if it was east... maybe a T-90.

I'm not military, but isn't it safe to assume that the marines keep their weapons in the armory and not the barracks? If so then they are effectively disarmed.

and isn't this better in 40k background?

Terminators die to shotguns and grot blasters. They lose instantly.

 Commissar Terrence wrote:
Idk. It turns out earth was a undiscovered world to the imperium and decides to get a squad of termies to disable a main part of the main force (NATO) so they teleport a squad of termies in after what they realised what we were using for weapons. The base is a regular base (Basic ammo, 3 or four tanks. 2 or three platoons of marines. And a few mg emplacements. Who would win?

Assuming this isn't a "Terminators teleport into chow hall when nobody has any idea what's going on" scenario (in which case it doesn't matter if you're talking Terminators or a modern 2000lb bomb), then modern weapons & physics wins. A modern NATO tank of just about any type can put accurately hit a moving tank sized target with a 90%+ accuracy while moving itself from a distance of 2 kilometers or more, and with projectiles capable of penetrating a full meter of cold rolled steel, while even fifty year old RPG's can hit targets at under 100/200 meters with great certainty and penetrate 200mm or more of armor. Small arms fire may not do terribly much, but they can do things that 40k fluff doesn't really talk about, like shatter optics or break weapons (that Storm Bolter isn't much use after it's been hit by a burst of machinegun fire), cut exposed cabling, potentially penetrate through underarmored joints, etc.

This is to say nothing of the air and artillery support that would be called upon in short order.

Also, a typical military base is going to be much larger than a couple platoons of infantry and a couple armored vehicles. Looking at something like Miramar or Pendelton (I used to live in San Diego) you're going to have many thousands/tens of thousands of infantry, with gobs of aircraft, tanks, artillery, etc.

A single squad of Terminators against modern weaponry wouldn't last very long at all. 40k works in it's "fantasy in Space" universe, but really rapidly breaks down once the real world is applied to it.

Are the terminators wearing helmets?

 Chute82 wrote:
Are the terminators wearing helmets?

yes....

Just to name a few things
Bradley fighting vehicles have 25mm depleted uranium rounds plus TOW missle
Abrams have depleted uranium
A-10 and Apache have 30mm depleted uranium
Infantry have AT-4 which can punch 14+ inches of armor
Infantry have TOW missle launchers
Infantry have javelin missle launchers

Your Terminators would be destroyed in short order

A lot depends on your assumptions.

Even auto guns, which are weaker than las guns, are more powerful than modern arms. In game, things like lasguns are bumped up while terminator armor is toned down.

That said, heavy stubbers are pretty explicitly 50 caliber heavy machine guns, so the intersection of contemporary and 40k weapons isn't completely impossible. Eventually, the termies die to weight of fire. Complicating things a bit are heavy flamers, which are far more effective than any modern flamethrower.

And eventually the termies run out of ammo.

I wouldn't use the Tabletop as a good example for Terminators. I would probably use the FFG RPG system which basically makes them immune to autoguns. Even if you score a lucky shot through the eye, its a high possibility that their bone, the Astartes', will stop the bullet in its tracks.

No one even mentions the tanks yet. Abrams 120 main gun should smoke a temie a shot. Depending on the rounds used perhaps more. Don't forget the coaxial gun. Bolter won't hurt it and tank shock would squish most any thing

An Abrams isn't shooting a terminator to death. It probably won't even scratch the paintwork.


Terminators assault bases in the fluff all the time in 40k and often emerge at the other end covered in blood. Anything in the modern era doesn't come close to that level of firepower.

 Chute82 wrote:
Just to name a few things
Bradley fighting vehicles have 25mm depleted uranium rounds plus TOW missle
Abrams have depleted uranium
A-10 and Apache have 30mm depleted uranium
Infantry have AT-4 which can punch 14+ inches of armor
Infantry have TOW missle launchers
Infantry have javelin missle launchers

Your Terminators would be destroyed in short order

Uranium round's will not dent the armour and TOW missiles might cause a minor concussion.
The abrams... (if it hit a motor or a exposed area) may cause a dent. Messing up the person inside. But then again the second heart might give them a second wind.
30mm.... Are you kidding me?
AT-14... Might just scratch the paint work.
A javelin (After several shot's wasting millions) might shatter a few bones. It's high quality ceramite plates...

A termie 38 millenniums in the future against a petty tank. *Pfft*

 welshhoppo wrote:
An Abrams isn't shooting a terminator to death. It probably won't even scratch the paintwork.


Terminators assault bases in the fluff all the time in 40k and often emerge at the other end covered in blood. Anything in the modern era doesn't come close to that level of firepower.

Terminators die to shotguns. They have no chance against a 120 mm du round.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Commissar Terrence wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Just to name a few things
Bradley fighting vehicles have 25mm depleted uranium rounds plus TOW missle
Abrams have depleted uranium
A-10 and Apache have 30mm depleted uranium
Infantry have AT-4 which can punch 14+ inches of armor
Infantry have TOW missle launchers
Infantry have javelin missle launchers

Your Terminators would be destroyed in short order

Uranium round's will not dent the armour and TOW missiles might cause a minor concussion.
The abrams... (if it hit a motor or a exposed area) may cause a dent. Messing up the person inside. But then again the second heart might give them a second wind.
30mm.... Are you kidding me?
AT-14... Might just scratch the paint work.
A javelin (After several shot's wasting millions) might shatter a few bones. It's high quality ceramite plates...

A termie 38 millenniums in the future against a petty tank. *Pfft*

Future tech that is backwards and inferior to real weapons.

For all this talk of shotguns killing Terminators they can also survive a direct hit from weapons used on Eldar starships.

I think the concussive force of a tank shell into the head of a Termie would easily snap the neck. Into the body it would probably send them flying a couple of feet.

Usually they can't, though. Makes them sound like ork wargear in how crazy unreliable it is.

pm713 wrote:
For all this talk of shotguns killing Terminators they can also survive a direct hit from weapons used on Eldar starships.

Because they don't die to shotguns. The tabletop format for TDA is garbage compared to what it is in the fluff.

I'll try to make that argument to my next opponent. Shotguns and heavy stubbers kill them. If they didn't kill them, they'd be rated like a wk. Fluff tda armor doesn't matter.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Commissar Terrence wrote:
Idk. It turns out earth was a undiscovered world to the imperium and decides to get a squad of termies to disable a main part of the main force (NATO) so they teleport a squad of termies in after what they realised what we were using for weapons. The base is a regular base (Basic ammo, 3 or four tanks. 2 or three platoons of marines. And a few mg emplacements. Who would win?

Assuming this isn't a "Terminators teleport into chow hall when nobody has any idea what's going on" scenario (in which case it doesn't matter if you're talking Terminators or a modern 2000lb bomb), then modern weapons & physics wins. A modern NATO tank of just about any type can put accurately hit a moving tank sized target with a 90%+ accuracy while moving itself from a distance of 2 kilometers or more, and with projectiles capable of penetrating a full meter of cold rolled steel, while even fifty year old RPG's can hit targets at under 100/200 meters with great certainty and penetrate 200mm or more of armor. Small arms fire may not do terribly much, but they can do things that 40k fluff doesn't really talk about, like shatter optics or break weapons (that Storm Bolter isn't much use after it's been hit by a burst of machinegun fire), cut exposed cabling, potentially penetrate through underarmored joints, etc.

This is to say nothing of the air and artillery support that would be called upon in short order.

Also, a typical military base is going to be much larger than a couple platoons of infantry and a couple armored vehicles. Looking at something like Miramar or Pendelton (I used to live in San Diego) you're going to have many thousands/tens of thousands of infantry, with gobs of aircraft, tanks, artillery, etc.

A single squad of Terminators against modern weaponry wouldn't last very long at all. 40k works in it's "fantasy in Space" universe, but really rapidly breaks down once the real world is applied to it.

Im assuming the petty abram's would maybe dent the armour. And a rpg would just probably bounce off the armour. And it will take a helluva long time to break there weapons with basic military rounds. And if that happened they'll just rely on power fists and there sheer lack of getting there amour pierced. Now if they didn't have a helmet. The marines could just shoot them in the head. And the termie's can just punch the tanks until there's nothing left. optic's could leave them a bit exposed due to the lack of sight. But that's a small chance of doing that due to spread. And before hand the termie's could just teleport into the armoury and detonate that before anyone know's what's going on. And now even with marines with odd amounts of weapons wont be able to dent the armour with small arm's and knifes. And they could also teleport near where the vehicles are stored and simply break destroy them or rig them beforehand. So here's a image of what the marines would be after the Tactical Dreadnought armour squad are done with the entire base.

Martel732 wrote:
I'll try to make that argument to my next opponent. Shotguns and heavy stubbers kill them. If they didn't kill them, they'd be rated like a wk. Fluff tda armor doesn't matter.

Better throw out all of the fluff then.

By rules, TDA fails to every sixth rude glance.

By fluff, TDA allows a wearer to stroll through a plasma furnace.

If you like then rules, weight of fire brings them down quickly.

If you like the fluff, five terminators cause havoc until they they are cut off, and isolated. Game over.

The fluff has zero impact on gameplay. Therefore, it's already thrown out. If fluff had an impact on gameplay, ba and csm wouldn't incompetent stooges. But they are.

Martel732 wrote:
The fluff has zero impact on gameplay. Therefore, it's already thrown out. If fluff had an impact on gameplay, ba and csm wouldn't incompetent stooges. But they are.

We aren't talking about the game, damn it.

On table top and in the fluff a Meganob can shrug off a battle tank round. I assume a terminator would be similar.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The fluff has zero impact on gameplay. Therefore, it's already thrown out. If fluff had an impact on gameplay, ba and csm wouldn't incompetent stooges. But they are.

We aren't talking about the game, damn it.

The game is a model of how these things work. The fluff is just the ravings of fanboy authors.

Martel732 wrote:
The fluff has zero impact on gameplay. Therefore, it's already thrown out. If fluff had an impact on gameplay, ba and csm wouldn't incompetent stooges. But they are.

The fluff DIRECTLY affects the gameplay, you cannot have one without the other, period.

if what you claim is true, then every army would have the exact same rules, weapon profiles etc. but they don't, because the fluff says they are different.

Now if you had claimed that the fluff affects different units in different ways to different levels, we would be in agreement, as it stands right now, your just flat wrong.

Well it's a good thing the 40k general discussion forum focuses entirely on the gameplay aspect.


Wait a minute.....

 welshhoppo wrote:
Well it's a good thing the 40k general discussion forum focuses entirely on the gameplay aspect.


Wait a minute.....

That... is not an answer, ok explain this to me please, if you will.

Why is an ork nobs rules, different to the space marine sergeants rules?

Why is a shooter, different than a bolter?

Why is a wave serpent different than a Devilfish?

please, go ahead.

As has been noted already by a few other posters, the answer to this hypothetical depends entirely on the combat readiness of the military base. If the Terminators teleport in at the dead of night then it's likely that they'll be able to neutralize most of the biggest threats before the base can muster a defense.

But in a stand-up fight, the Terminators are going down.

 Formosa wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Well it's a good thing the 40k general discussion forum focuses entirely on the gameplay aspect.


Wait a minute.....

That... is not an answer, ok explain this to me please, if you will.

Why is an ork nobs rules, different to the space marine sergeants rules?

Why is a shooter, different than a bolter?

Why is a wave serpent different than a Devilfish?

please, go ahead.

It wasn't actually aimed at you. I just didn't read the second page because I'm supposed to be sleeping.

But my point is, what happens in the background and what happens on the game boars are two different things entirely. Otherwise you'd only have to buy one squad of marines and you'd be able to take down entire Ork armies without breaking a sweat or losing a guy. Because that's how good marines are in the fluff. Except that isn't good balance for the tabletop game.

If you are talking about hypothetical situations that are supposed to occur in real life, you have to look at the fluff. When people talk about Lord of the rings situations, like say Gondor vs the Roman Empire. You don't look at the tabletop game for your answers, you look in the book.

Natalya wrote:
As has been noted already by a few other posters, the answer to this hypothetical depends entirely on the combat readiness of the military base. If the Terminators teleport in at the dead of night then it's likely that they'll be able to neutralize most of the biggest threats before the base can muster a defense.

But in a stand-up fight, the Terminators are going down.

I highly doubt they would go down in a straight up fight. If Autoguns (or you modern day equivelent of) aren't considered to be armour penetrating, then any ordinary marine is going to have a hell of a time killing an Astartes, let alone one wearing TDA. If one Terminator is carrying a Cyclone missle launcher, you can bet your arse your heavy armour is toast. As soon as you don't have any heavy armour, you don't have a chance of killing a Terminator.

 Commissar Terrence wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Commissar Terrence wrote:
Idk. It turns out earth was a undiscovered world to the imperium and decides to get a squad of termies to disable a main part of the main force (NATO) so they teleport a squad of termies in after what they realised what we were using for weapons. The base is a regular base (Basic ammo, 3 or four tanks. 2 or three platoons of marines. And a few mg emplacements. Who would win?

Assuming this isn't a "Terminators teleport into chow hall when nobody has any idea what's going on" scenario (in which case it doesn't matter if you're talking Terminators or a modern 2000lb bomb), then modern weapons & physics wins. A modern NATO tank of just about any type can put accurately hit a moving tank sized target with a 90%+ accuracy while moving itself from a distance of 2 kilometers or more, and with projectiles capable of penetrating a full meter of cold rolled steel, while even fifty year old RPG's can hit targets at under 100/200 meters with great certainty and penetrate 200mm or more of armor. Small arms fire may not do terribly much, but they can do things that 40k fluff doesn't really talk about, like shatter optics or break weapons (that Storm Bolter isn't much use after it's been hit by a burst of machinegun fire), cut exposed cabling, potentially penetrate through underarmored joints, etc.

This is to say nothing of the air and artillery support that would be called upon in short order.

Also, a typical military base is going to be much larger than a couple platoons of infantry and a couple armored vehicles. Looking at something like Miramar or Pendelton (I used to live in San Diego) you're going to have many thousands/tens of thousands of infantry, with gobs of aircraft, tanks, artillery, etc.

A single squad of Terminators against modern weaponry wouldn't last very long at all. 40k works in it's "fantasy in Space" universe, but really rapidly breaks down once the real world is applied to it.

Im assuming the petty abram's would maybe dent the armour.

Based on what? We have armor values for 40k vehicles and equivalents to modern day weaponry and we know their effectiveness against flesh and blood with everything pointing to the 40k universe being far more primitive than real life equivalents. A modern MBT like a T-90, Abrams, Leopard 2, etc can do things that even the Eldar would be jealous of, both in-game and fluff-wise. 40k fundamentally is a Fantasy universe with a scifi skin pasted over the top that breaks down when the real world is applied to it.

And a rpg would just probably bounce off the armour.

Again, based on what? Modern RPG's/infantry anti-tank weapons are nearly as effective as MBT guns at penetrating armor within their effective range, and nothing in the fluff suggests that Terminator armor is equal to a meter of steel in terms of protection.

And it will take a helluva long time to break there weapons with basic military rounds

Again..based on what? Is a Storm Bolter particularly heavily armored? Looking at actual guns being hit by small arms, even heavier weapons like cannons, they can be broken just fine.

And if that happened they'll just rely on power fists and there sheer lack of getting there amour pierced.

Yes...they'll run everything down on foot an punch it. It's not like TDA isn't slow (remember, they can't make sweeping advances for this reason), and that modern fighting vehicles couldn't just run circles around them and pound them to ash, nor is Terminator armor invulnerable.

Now if they didn't have a helmet. The marines could just shoot them in the head. And the termie's can just punch the tanks until there's nothing left.

How are they going to catch a tank maneuvering at speed? I mean a *real* tank, able to maneuver at 50KPH on broken ground and engaging targets two thousand meters away, not a cartoon-parody Leman Russ with a breach that extends so far into the turret you couldn't actually fit someone into the hatch, or Land Raider that would be stopped by a parking lot speed bump because its ground clearance is effectively nonexistent.

And before hand the termie's could just teleport into the armoury and detonate that before anyone know's what's going on.

How do they know where the armory is? What sort of intelligence apparatus is delivering this information to them? Is the armory the only place weapons are stored? If you look at actual military base armories, these are large complexes of spread out and fortified buildings, where hitting one thing won't cause everything else to go up. You may impact their ability to fight for extended periods, but the troops and vehicles may be carrying munitions already. Ammunition and weapons are unlikely to be stored in a single vulnerable place.

And now even with marines with odd amounts of weapons wont be able to dent the armour with small arm's and knifes. And they could also teleport near where the vehicles are stored and simply break destroy them or rig them beforehand.

If we're assuming the marines somehow have perfect intelligence about everything, sure, but then, you could do the same with a real life military too, so that's not proving much. If you catch a force completely unprepared and already know where everything is and what's there, you don't need a Space Marine to achieve a decisive victory, you could do that with a couple of F-16's or a wing of Apache's too.

Bury the under tons of metal then have a pyrite bonfire.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Well it's a good thing the 40k general discussion forum focuses entirely on the gameplay aspect.


Wait a minute.....

That... is not an answer, ok explain this to me please, if you will.

Why is an ork nobs rules, different to the space marine sergeants rules?

Why is a shooter, different than a bolter?

Why is a wave serpent different than a Devilfish?

please, go ahead.

It wasn't actually aimed at you. I just didn't read the second page because I'm supposed to be sleeping.

But my point is, what happens in the background and what happens on the game boars are two different things entirely. Otherwise you'd only have to buy one squad of marines and you'd be able to take down entire Ork armies without breaking a sweat or losing a guy. Because that's how good marines are in the fluff. Except that isn't good balance for the tabletop game.

If you are talking about hypothetical situations that are supposed to occur in real life, you have to look at the fluff. When people talk about Lord of the rings situations, like say Gondor vs the Roman Empire. You don't look at the tabletop game for your answers, you look in the book.

If you say so. But I personally reference the fluff for nothing. So why should I start now?

40K tanks can't even move and shoot effectively. That puts them at early WWII design specs. What a joke.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
On table top and in the fluff a Meganob can shrug off a battle tank round. I assume a terminator would be similar.

I remember the 5th ed codex talking about meganobs taking direct ordnance hits and just getting knocked down (and subsequently having lots of trouble getting to their feet even with assistance, though otherwise mosly unharmed).

And they are just wearing copious amounts of steel armour. TDA is space magic metal.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:


If you say so. But I personally reference the fluff for nothing. So why should I start now?

40K tanks can't even move and shoot effectively. That puts them at early WWII design specs. What a joke.

Abstract game mechanics are abstract.

In DoWII, 40k's equivalent of Starcraft 2, they can.

And Starcraft 2 tanks can't move and shoot either (and die quickly to small arms fire) yet you seem to praise them often!

Martel732 wrote:
The game is a model of how these things work. The fluff is just the ravings of fanboy authors.

Which is a perfectly valid position on what is canon in 40k, thanks to GW's refusal to clarify the subject.

FoW is not exactly identical to real world warfare either, however.

I love the "Fluff doesn't matter!" Arguments.

Until the USMC, Abrams Tanks, Apache helicopters and every other piece of weaponry/trooper on the planet needs to roll a D6 to see if their shot hit, body armor worked, or to test to see if they fall back.
Fluff is what an argument like this -should- be based on.

"Not my s3 ap - thingy killed a terminator in game once so, a terminator would fall to an M4 easy"

And based on fluff a 5 man terminator squad would walk through a modern day military facility like a field of Daisys.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
I love the "Fluff doesn't matter!" Arguments.

Until the USMC, Abrams Tanks, Apache helicopters and every other piece of weaponry/trooper on the planet needs to roll a D6 to see if their shot hit, body armor worked, or to test to see if they fall back.
Fluff is what an argument like this -should- be based on.

"Not my s3 ap - thingy killed a terminator in game once so, a terminator would fall to an M4 easy"

And based on fluff a 5 man terminator squad would walk through a modern day military facility like a field of Daisys.

I agree, these people for whatever reason don't seem to like the fluff of 40k or marines specifically, tabletop is affected by fluff, fluff is sometimes dictated by tabletop, they are intertwined, tabletop should never be used in these hypothetical situations are it very very rarely reflects how ANY of the factions work in the fluff.

Because the fluff is awful fanfic level fiction that is not reflected in the part of the game that I spent hours playing.

A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

 Gargantuan wrote:
A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

Where does it say the Land raiders armor is that "ineffective". If you're referring to its thickness that means little in this case as we do not know the actual strength of the armor.

Martel732 wrote:
Because the fluff is awful fanfic level fiction that is not reflected in the part of the game that I spent hours playing.

except the fluff describes the strength and capabilities of those units. without the fluff you're just rolling dice and removing your pretty painted dollies from the table in a semi arbitrary fashion.

I would just like to point out that rules wise a human is Strength 3 and could theoretically punch a terminator to death, so yea enough people shooting or dog piling on a Terminator will kill it.

Fluff wise, a sqaud could take out the planet.

Since it's all fiction, then it's all up to what you believe and can't be answered. My opinion is the fluff is ridiculously over powered.

Modern day military is somewhat like those planets being brought in by the Legionaires during the crusade, always over estimating themselves until their world gets wrecked and plea for mercy.

One thing that needs mentioning is tactics, the marines wouldn't just send down a terminator squad to overtake a vital base. There will be combination of flyers, marines and terminators, plus whatever is deem necessary. Plain old guardsmen are like our modern day spec ops, PDF are like our regular military.

 Gargantuan wrote:
A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

Wait, what? Now were saying a ancient tank is capable of destroying a heavily armoured moving fortress. But a amazingly powerful laser cannon cannot pierce the armour 5/6 times it shoot's at it.

We wrote:
I would just like to point out that rules wise a human is Strength 3 and could theoretically punch a terminator to death, so yea enough people shooting or dog piling on a Terminator will kill it.

Gamewise a hotshot lasgun is no better against a normally clothed human (or indeed a Terminator) than your hands are.

Let's see if the IG fans agree with that one...

 Commissar Terrence wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

Wait, what? Now were saying a ancient tank is capable of destroying a heavily armoured moving fortress. But a amazingly powerful laser cannon cannot pierce the armour 5/6 times it shoot's at it.

Don't take this the wrong way- but it doesn't really sound like you know what you're talking about in terms of a modern military's equipment. Go watch a video of an M1A2 Abrams shooting a super-SABOT and what happens to it's target. Vaktathi's got it pretty much nailed down.

One point I'd like to make about the comparison between in game battle tanks and modern ones- notice that tanks like the Leman Russ in the game use a large blast to denote the explosion caused by their shells impacting. That's not how real modern tank projectiles work- like at all. Even HEAT rounds aren't designed to explode and produce shrapnel for the purposes of defeating anything but very light tanks and heavy APC's. Just an observation.

thing is an Abrams is shooting known technology. a Land raider's hull is made out of advanced materials super science.

BrianDavion wrote:
thing is an Abrams is shooting known technology. a Land raider's hull is made out of advanced materials super science.

I don't think so. Actually, I think 40K alloys are probably worse. It's the retro future, where everything and everyone sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because the fluff is awful fanfic level fiction that is not reflected in the part of the game that I spent hours playing.

except the fluff describes the strength and capabilities of those units. without the fluff you're just rolling dice and removing your pretty painted dollies from the table in a semi arbitrary fashion.

The fluff does nothing of the kind. In each books fluff, that faction is the bee's knees. Well, we know how that works out for Orks, BA, and CSM. I used to know BA fluff in the 90s, but don't care anymore.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Commissar Terrence wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

Wait, what? Now were saying a ancient tank is capable of destroying a heavily armoured moving fortress. But a amazingly powerful laser cannon cannot pierce the armour 5/6 times it shoot's at it.

Don't take this the wrong way- but it doesn't really sound like you know what you're talking about in terms of a modern military's equipment. Go watch a video of an M1A2 Abrams shooting a super-SABOT and what happens to it's target. Vaktathi's got it pretty much nailed down.

One point I'd like to make about the comparison between in game battle tanks and modern ones- notice that tanks like the Leman Russ in the game use a large blast to denote the explosion caused by their shells impacting. That's not how real modern tank projectiles work- like at all. Even HEAT rounds aren't designed to explode and produce shrapnel for the purposes of defeating anything but very light tanks and heavy APC's. Just an observation.

Thats why the Leman Russ has the Vanquisher anti tank variant, that fires effectively HEAT, as it is a direct shot high Armor Penetration round.

Very few Tanks in 40k rely on blast weapons for anti armor weaponry.

Now trying to compare a Russ to an Abrams based on what the Abrams can do to /current/ armor, is not an apt comparison when you bring into fact Imperial "regressed technology" has regressed to a point that is still thousands upon thousands of years in our future.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Commissar Terrence wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

Wait, what? Now were saying a ancient tank is capable of destroying a heavily armoured moving fortress. But a amazingly powerful laser cannon cannot pierce the armour 5/6 times it shoot's at it.

Don't take this the wrong way- but it doesn't really sound like you know what you're talking about in terms of a modern military's equipment. Go watch a video of an M1A2 Abrams shooting a super-SABOT and what happens to it's target. Vaktathi's got it pretty much nailed down.

One point I'd like to make about the comparison between in game battle tanks and modern ones- notice that tanks like the Leman Russ in the game use a large blast to denote the explosion caused by their shells impacting. That's not how real modern tank projectiles work- like at all. Even HEAT rounds aren't designed to explode and produce shrapnel for the purposes of defeating anything but very light tanks and heavy APC's. Just an observation.

Ah, yes. I see your describing a battle tank. There's different varient's you know. Such as the vanquisher. Shooting a AP round designed to pierce armour rather than just exploding on impact. There is more than one leman russ. And if you pitted a leman russ agienst a m1 abram's. I'll assure you the m1 has the obvious advantage over speed and manoeuvrability, but the leman russ has the armour advantage. And also thinking on how its the 41st melinium the shell should be so advance by now... Check this out (ripped from the lexicanum)

The Vanquisher Cannon is a more complex variant of the Battle cannon mounted on the Leman Russ Vanquisher. Vanquisher cannons have superior accuracy, range and first-hit kill ratios compared to other cannons and are designed to fire specialised anti-tank rounds.[1a][2] Such is the power of the cannon and its ammunition they can even penetrate the thick armour found on Titans,[1a] such as puncturing the neck of a Reaver Battle Titan.


Unlike the battle cannon a Vanquisher cannon can only fire two types of rounds, a high explosive and a special munition called a Vanquisher Shell. Also known as a subcalibre munition or high velocity anti-tank shell, it consists of a solid dart of super density metal surrounded by a lightweight exterior case. A power charge of high energy propellent causes the round to travel at a tremendous velocity down the Vanquisher's long barrel where upon exiting the case falls away, leaving just the dart speeding towards it's target. Typically the dart is only a third of the calibre of the actual shell, but the combination of it's extreme velocity and high density produces tremendous kinetic energy upon impact.



So if the leman russ shoots a vanquisher shell. Its game over for the abram's. And since the armour is so thick on the leman russ. There is a high chance of it deflecting or just not piercing. Even in the back where the mostly exposed motor is

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 Commissar Terrence wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

Wait, what? Now were saying a ancient tank is capable of destroying a heavily armoured moving fortress. But a amazingly powerful laser cannon cannot pierce the armour 5/6 times it shoot's at it.

Don't take this the wrong way- but it doesn't really sound like you know what you're talking about in terms of a modern military's equipment. Go watch a video of an M1A2 Abrams shooting a super-SABOT and what happens to it's target. Vaktathi's got it pretty much nailed down.

One point I'd like to make about the comparison between in game battle tanks and modern ones- notice that tanks like the Leman Russ in the game use a large blast to denote the explosion caused by their shells impacting. That's not how real modern tank projectiles work- like at all. Even HEAT rounds aren't designed to explode and produce shrapnel for the purposes of defeating anything but very light tanks and heavy APC's. Just an observation.

Thats why the Leman Russ has the Vanquisher anti tank variant, that fires effectively HEAT, as it is a direct shot high Armor Penetration round.

Very few Tanks in 40k rely on blast weapons for anti armor weaponry.

Now trying to compare a Russ to an Abrams based on what the Abrams can do to /current/ armor, is not an apt comparison when you bring into fact Imperial "regressed technology" has regressed to a point that is still thousands upon thousands of years in our future.

You mean...to a point where a Leman Russ couldn't actually physically work?

The thing has zero suspension capability...at all, its turret is so small it couldn't contain both armor and the breach of a battlecannon, much less a crew, ammunition, equipment, etc. Even GW and FW's own drawings of the interior of a Russ show the breech extending so far as to obstruct the entirety of the single turret hatch to the point where a tank commander sitting out of the hatch would have to be goddamn Gumby to actually do so

The whole 40k universe is like this. Ever see a Marine with an extra magazine? Why on earth is the Magazine on some bolters so far forward as to be feeding into the muzzle brake? Can you imagine a Land Raider trying to cross anything but clear and level road with zero suspension and zero ground clearance?

Then we get into the myriad of weapons that exist in the 40k universe with direct equivalents to real world weapons and far worse. Are Ork Rokkits really *that* advanced that there's nothing the real world has to match them? They seem to penetrate power armor and Space Marine tanks just fine. We have autocannons in todays world, we know what they're capable of, and it happens to be exactly about what they're capable of in 40k.

Really, we need to realize that 40k is not built on any sort of reality, it's built on rule of cool and that the real world breaks it down very fast.

Termies because NATO lol

 Commissar Terrence wrote:
Check this out (ripped from the lexicanum)

The Vanquisher Cannon is a more complex variant of the Battle cannon mounted on the Leman Russ Vanquisher. Vanquisher cannons have superior accuracy, range and first-hit kill ratios compared to other cannons and are designed to fire specialised anti-tank rounds.[1a][2] Such is the power of the cannon and its ammunition they can even penetrate the thick armour found on Titans,[1a] such as puncturing the neck of a Reaver Battle Titan.


Unlike the battle cannon a Vanquisher cannon can only fire two types of rounds, a high explosive and a special munition called a Vanquisher Shell. Also known as a subcalibre munition or high velocity anti-tank shell, it consists of a solid dart of super density metal surrounded by a lightweight exterior case. A power charge of high energy propellent causes the round to travel at a tremendous velocity down the Vanquisher's long barrel where upon exiting the case falls away, leaving just the dart speeding towards it's target. Typically the dart is only a third of the calibre of the actual shell, but the combination of it's extreme velocity and high density produces tremendous kinetic energy upon impact.

I really don't see your point here. All that description says is "LR Vanquishers use sabot rounds just like real-world tanks". Except in 40k a sabot round (and the special gun to fire it) is rare and priceless technology that only a handful of forge worlds can produce, while in the real world sabot rounds are just standard ammunition that every tank carries.

Sorry we can speculate but as I posted before:

They exist in two different universes with perhaps different laws of physics - in 40k the narrative writes those laws - which can also change to suit the story................. .

The best you can do is decide if the narrative needs the Terminators to destroy the base or not..........

Same with any fictional universe..............

 Mr Morden wrote:
Sorry we can speculate but as I posted before:

They exist in two different universes with perhaps different laws of physics - in 40k the narrative writes those laws - which can also change to suit the story................. .

The best you can do is decide if the narrative needs the Terminators to destroy the base or not..........

Same with any fictional universe..............

We can sticky this F.A.O Commissar Terrance.

It's fun to what if these scenarios but when one party is totally dedicated to the Imperiums propaganda it goes a bit sour.

Although I will say anything that can magically appear in the middle of someone's military base is seriously going to feth things up before being stopped.

An Eldar Avatar however. If that thing appeared in the middle of a creche or nursery 'braying' babies would tear it to shreds and possibly rip out its still beating magma heart..........

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

Where does it say the Land raiders armor is that "ineffective". If you're referring to its thickness that means little in this case as we do not know the actual strength of the armor.

The armour thickness in the Forge World source books is stated to be an 'equivalent rolled steel' number.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
A termie is softer than a land raider and according to GWs own fluff an Abrams MBT has 3-4 times more effective armour than a land raider depending on if it's a shaped charge or kinetic projectile. Most modern anti tank weapons would have no problem penetrating terminator armour.

Where does it say the Land raiders armor is that "ineffective". If you're referring to its thickness that means little in this case as we do not know the actual strength of the armor.

The armour thickness in the Forge World source books is stated to be an 'equivalent rolled steel' number.

It has 90mm thick armour that's equivalent to 300mm steel iirc. An Abrams has roughly 1200mm against shaped charges. Whenever GW use numbers they fail miserable. The ork army invading Armageddon is smaller than the soviet army in ww2

We can sticky this F.A.O Commissar Terrance.

Well if were going to say that were comparing the physics and reality of a space marine compared to the real world.... Uh, erm....
(And don't you fething try to even put that finger on the keyboard if you are going to yell at me about how you were trying to cram that into my head for the past few hours.)
I'll get back to you about that

And 1000 space marines per chapter could accomplish nothing on a galactic scale.

If the space marines attempt to attack us then they are bound by our physical laws. And our physical laws would quickly reduce space marines to being very dead as their armour is not actually very good at protecting the person inside it even if the armour itself is very tough.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
If the space marines attempt to attack us then they are bound by our physical laws. And our physical laws would quickly reduce space marines to being very dead as their armour is not actually very good at protecting the person inside it even if the armour itself is very tough.

If the Space Marines were to attack us, they'd bring Psykers, and we'd fold like flies because we have absolutely no defence. Even if we ignore the really insane feats psykers pull off, they can still mindcontrol our leaders, make our machines and weapons turn on us, cripple us with hallucinations and now apparently even turn the ground under our feet against us.

Disregarding the orbital bombardments of their fleets, of course.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
If the space marines attempt to attack us then they are bound by our physical laws. And our physical laws would quickly reduce space marines to being very dead as their armour is not actually very good at protecting the person inside it even if the armour itself is very tough.

If the Space Marines were to attack us, they'd bring Psykers, and we'd fold like flies because we have absolutely no defence. Even if we ignore the really insane feats psykers pull off, they can still mindcontrol our leaders, make our machines and weapons turn on us, cripple us with hallucinations and now apparently even turn the ground under our feet against us.

Disregarding the orbital bombardments of their fleets, of course.

Except psykers don't work in our universe as they violate our physical laws. As do much of Space Marine ships and weaponry. They try to enter the Warp to get to us? Nope, warp doesn't exist. They try to use any FTL technology, including psychic communications? Nope, causality kicks them in the face.

I love the arrogant assumptions of people in this thread who just assume that we know everything about how physics works in our world. XD

So it is a fight that will never happen since they need the Warp to get here.

Seems like a redundant line of thinking...

Besides, 'it can't exist if it doesn't violate the laws of physics' is demonstrably false. Black holes violate conservation laws associated with global symmetries. So for instance, baryon and lepton number are likely not conserved in general.

And black holes do exist.

This means our understanding of physics is limited.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I love the arrogant assumptions of people in this thread who just assume that we know everything about how physics works in our world. XD

I think the assumption that psychic powers don't exist is a valid one, especially those based on the Warhammer 40K universe.

My dad can beat up your dad.

And don't forget to make the pew-pew noises with your toys.

Because that's all fluff justification is.

Oh, and "Ceramite can bounce anything!" "Nuh-uh!"

Terminators would be hard to take down with anything short of crew operated/ vehicle mounted weapons. Going by the background, Terminator Armor is very durable, the marine inside is basically a tank even naked and and a stormbolter would shred infantry on foot and likely would pop light vehicles, not to mention any heavier weapons/ psychic powers the squad may have and with the powerfist, they can tear through buildings and armor with ease. Giving that terminators can teleport in with little to no warning, the base would be caught off guard and likely would have taken significant casualties before they knew what was going on. That's pretty much how Astartes operate, fast overwhelming attack that spreads chaos among the enemy and then mop up whats left.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Terminators would be hard to take down with anything short of crew operated/ vehicle mounted weapons. Going by the background, Terminator Armor is very durable, the marine inside is basically a tank even naked and and a stormbolter would shred infantry on foot and likely would pop light vehicles, not to mention any heavier weapons/ psychic powers the squad may have and with the powerfist, they can tear through buildings and armor with ease. Giving that terminators can teleport in with little to no warning, the base would be caught off guard and likely would have taken significant casualties before they knew what was going on. That's pretty much how Astartes operate, fast overwhelming attack that spreads chaos among the enemy and then mop up whats left.

You SEE?! Someone understands the 40k universe!

Abram is a tank outdated by more modern tanks today let alone 40k tanks. I'd put my bets on Challenger II and Leopard II over the Abrams any day particularly in speed armour gun and firecontrol.
None of which has the materials to efficiently deal with the composite supermaterials used in 40k.

Commissar Terrence wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Terminators would be hard to take down with anything short of crew operated/ vehicle mounted weapons. Going by the background, Terminator Armor is very durable, the marine inside is basically a tank even naked and and a stormbolter would shred infantry on foot and likely would pop light vehicles, not to mention any heavier weapons/ psychic powers the squad may have and with the powerfist, they can tear through buildings and armor with ease. Giving that terminators can teleport in with little to no warning, the base would be caught off guard and likely would have taken significant casualties before they knew what was going on. That's pretty much how Astartes operate, fast overwhelming attack that spreads chaos among the enemy and then mop up whats left.

You SEE?! Someone understands the 40k universe!

Why did you even ask the question in the OP at all if you were just looking for others to justify your position?

ProwlerPC wrote:Abram is a tank outdated by more modern tanks today let alone 40k tanks. I'd put my bets on Challenger II and Leopard II over the Abrams any day particularly in speed armour gun and firecontrol.
None of which has the materials to efficiently deal with the composite supermaterials used in 40k.

This is a joke right? The M1A2 SEP V3 and new M1A3 are the epitome of modern tank design, armor, weapons, and functionality.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Abram is a tank outdated by more modern tanks today let alone 40k tanks. I'd put my bets on Challenger II and Leopard II over the Abrams any day particularly in speed armour gun and firecontrol.
None of which has the materials to efficiently deal with the composite supermaterials used in 40k.

yes... YES SUPER MATERIALS!!! That's what it was!!!

Last I checked the imperium uses much much stronger materials then we do. Since its straight up fantasy and doesn't exist I reserve my right to call it supermaterials. Which I think accentuates the silliness of this thread.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Last I checked the imperium uses much much stronger materials then we do. Since its straight up fantasy and doesn't exist I reserve my right to call it supermaterials. Which I think accentuates the silliness of this thread.

I'm not going to argue there. I don't know why I bite on these kinds of threads. My fanboyism for American military machines always comes out and I get blinded by the idea that I have to tell everyone how awesome they are, forgetting its an argument about space magic.

Since we are talking make believe superman or the Hulk would save us.

Again this entire thread is moot, OP does not actually want a discussion just people to agree with him, further more, lore itself is not consistent. It entirely depends on the writer. There are cases of terminators taking massive amounts of damage and walking away with out a scratch, or ripping apart tanks like pealing an orange. Yet we also see terminators being taken down by a single gene stealer or unable to open a bulk head door with out significant effort.

Humbly request three be locked as there is no discussion to be had just OP wanting people to agree with him.

If you want a thread to be locked, just report it. Posting does little.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If you want a thread to be locked, just report it. Posting does little.

I did you thilly

I just posted my reason in a response vs putting all that into the report box

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I love the arrogant assumptions of people in this thread who just assume that we know everything about how physics works in our world. XD

I think the arrogance flows in more than one direction.

 amanita wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I love the arrogant assumptions of people in this thread who just assume that we know everything about how physics works in our world. XD

I think the arrogance flows in more than one direction.

Babe you light up my world like nobody else?

 Ignatius wrote:

Commissar Terrence wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Terminators would be hard to take down with anything short of crew operated/ vehicle mounted weapons. Going by the background, Terminator Armor is very durable, the marine inside is basically a tank even naked and and a stormbolter would shred infantry on foot and likely would pop light vehicles, not to mention any heavier weapons/ psychic powers the squad may have and with the powerfist, they can tear through buildings and armor with ease. Giving that terminators can teleport in with little to no warning, the base would be caught off guard and likely would have taken significant casualties before they knew what was going on. That's pretty much how Astartes operate, fast overwhelming attack that spreads chaos among the enemy and then mop up whats left.

You SEE?! Someone understands the 40k universe!

Why did you even ask the question in the OP at all if you were just looking for others to justify your position?

ProwlerPC wrote:Abram is a tank outdated by more modern tanks today let alone 40k tanks. I'd put my bets on Challenger II and Leopard II over the Abrams any day particularly in speed armour gun and firecontrol.
None of which has the materials to efficiently deal with the composite supermaterials used in 40k.

This is a joke right? The M1A2 SEP V3 and new M1A3 are the epitome of modern tank design, armor, weapons, and functionality.

I was going to go with "someone who doesn't know sheepgak from applebutter about modern tanks".

Going by forgeworld info regarding armor, an M1A2 could put a sabot lengthwise through a Landraider. 40K is pretty fascinating, that 40,000 years into the future they've taken huge leaps backwards in technology, because heresy and all that. But, it works to keep stuff from getting too ridiculous, and making small scale human or superhuman combat possible, even fun. Hell, I could see several thousand points of anything 40k against a self-aware tank with armor effectiveness measured in meters and a fusion-powered main gun that can knock down orbiting frigates. But, we don't go down that road, so it's workable. Not 100% balanced, but workable.



Sure, the termies would cause a hell of a lot of casualties before someone at the ASP loaded up some Javelins. Once that's done, it's all over for the termie squad.

If a bunch of terminators come across something that can cause them severe harm, I'm fairly certain they'd just teleport back to orbit and then proceed to hit the planet with a lance battery. Heck, maybe they'd even plant a tracker for an accurate shot...... Because Marines aren't that stupid.

If the termies are by them selves with a single teleport, then its easy mode.

get in tank, drive backwards, keep shooting.

they wont catch up to it and a tank for the most part should have ample armor. at the least long enough to distract them for the cruiser missiles.

otherwise if they can keep teleporting then throw waves apon waves of your own men in a blanket so that they may mishap and die

 welshhoppo wrote:
If a bunch of terminators come across something that can cause them severe harm, I'm fairly certain they'd just teleport back to orbit and then proceed to hit the planet with a lance battery. Heck, maybe they'd even plant a tracker for an accurate shot...... Because Marines aren't that stupid.

and yet they do stupid things all the time in the fluff, like engage in direct sieges of enemy fortresses and pitched firefights

 Vaktathi wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
If a bunch of terminators come across something that can cause them severe harm, I'm fairly certain they'd just teleport back to orbit and then proceed to hit the planet with a lance battery. Heck, maybe they'd even plant a tracker for an accurate shot...... Because Marines aren't that stupid.

and yet they do stupid things all the time in the fluff, like engage in direct sieges of enemy fortresses and pitched firefights

Well who else is going to raid the fortresses? Unless you're chaos terminators and have a bucket load of "renegades" to gum up the enemy. Space marines have to do it the hard way.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
If a bunch of terminators come across something that can cause them severe harm, I'm fairly certain they'd just teleport back to orbit and then proceed to hit the planet with a lance battery. Heck, maybe they'd even plant a tracker for an accurate shot...... Because Marines aren't that stupid.

and yet they do stupid things all the time in the fluff, like engage in direct sieges of enemy fortresses and pitched firefights

Well who else is going to raid the fortresses? Unless you're chaos terminators and have a bucket load of "renegades" to gum up the enemy. Space marines have to do it the hard way.

which no SM chapter would have sufficient numbers to properly actually do, its hard to besiege a city when you only have a thousand dudes and cant cover more than a couple kilometers of territory at a time...it'd leave an awful lot of space (i.e. almost all of it for a city ot large fortress) for an opponent to keep supply lines open, launch counterattacks, escape through, etc.

I mean...the IG is great at that, but SM's get hamfisted into all sorts of stupid situations depending on author.

It'd be a total massacre. The effect of an M4 carbine on tactical dreadnought armor can be best replicated by firing a nerf gun at a boulder.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It'd be a total massacre. The effect of an M4 carbine on tactical dreadnought armor can be best replicated by firing a nerf gun at a boulder.

It doesn't stop a bunch of chump cultest shooting enough rifles to take one or two down once in a while.

it can be done.

Are we taking lore-wise or in game?

I'm not saying it would be 2000-0 for the Termies. A M1 Abrams can put a lot of hurt on them. But they'd clean up the base pretty easy.

i believe the Grey Knights Omnibus

has a case of it.

Edit they are free to have the base but expect a carpet bombing to follow.

Yeah, its because nearly all the authors lose the concept of scale.

You have the IG attack a place. Then you politely ask a space marine to come along. Drop pod onto the command centre. Blow it up and then "thank you. Good day" off they go. It just makes for boring reading, but that is how space marines are supposed to be used, they decend from the heavens like angels of death, chop off the head and go do something else. Maybe they will stay behind and give tactical advice, maybe they'll help with beachheads.


Also, even if you pentrade the armour, you skill have to kill the marine, a shot to the neck isn't going to do it most of the Time, they'll just heal instantly. Even losing an eye isn't a big deal really.

Aye, scale is a thing most 40k authors dont get. That said, even when they do, theres a lot of hand waving in most stories. How do the SM's always know where HQ's are, why are there never adequate AA or anti teleportation defenses, etc.

As for SM injuries, losing an eye would be a big deal in terms of depth perception and movement judgement, a shot to the neck might heal quickly, but if it severs the spine or blows his neck apart the SM is screwed.

Another issues with SM's would be calorie count. Given their body mass, and the energy required for rapid healing, and all those extra organs, a single SM would have to nutrition requirements of an entire company of normal human troops. Even if their digestive systems are more efficient and capable, theyd have to be spending hours each day eating milshakes and cake just to survive XD, or literal tons of random garbage. We wont get into the resulting poop issues.

SM eat superconcentrated nutrient gruel and their waste is recycled by the armour. They did solve that one.

So what is OP comparing to?
Fluff or gameplay?

If it's gameplay, they're slaughtered pretty quick.

If it's fluff, say goodbye to that base, unless there's a plucky soldier in there with plot armour.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It'd be a total massacre. The effect of an M4 carbine on tactical dreadnought armor can be best replicated by firing a nerf gun at a boulder.

I always go back to the saying

"Las gun does diddly....1000 guards man is a gak load of diddly."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So what is OP comparing to?
Fluff or gameplay?

If it's gameplay, they're slaughtered pretty quick.

If it's fluff, say goodbye to that base, unless there's a plucky soldier in there with plot armour.

Again depends whose writing the fluff, one writer says they are a walking tank able to punch through tank armor, another says a single gene stealer can kill a terminator.

 Ashiraya wrote:
SM eat superconcentrated nutrient gruel and their waste is recycled by the armour. They did solve that one.

So all you need to do to defeat Space Marines is to cut off their supply of porridge and watch them starve to death.

Curious as to how the armour converts masses of faecal matter into anything useful in an amount of time that actually gives any in-battle benefit, though.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
SM eat superconcentrated nutrient gruel and their waste is recycled by the armour. They did solve that one.

So all you need to do to defeat Space Marines is to cut off their supply of porridge and watch them starve to death.

Space marines can still consume the courses of their enemies to gain their nutrition, they can digest highly toxic chemicals. Space marine lore is crazy


You know a better debate is?

10 terminators deep striked onto the Death Star, who would win.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
SM eat superconcentrated nutrient gruel and their waste is recycled by the armour. They did solve that one.

So all you need to do to defeat Space Marines is to cut off their supply of porridge and watch them starve to death.

Space marines can still consume the courses of their enemies to gain their nutrition, they can digest highly toxic chemicals. Space marine lore is crazy

But with the massive amount of energy they require that wouldn't actually give them the calories they need to operate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:


You know a better debate is?

10 terminators deep striked onto the Death Star, who would win.

The Rebel Alliance.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
SM eat superconcentrated nutrient gruel and their waste is recycled by the armour. They did solve that one.

So all you need to do to defeat Space Marines is to cut off their supply of porridge and watch them starve to death.

Space marines can still consume the courses of their enemies to gain their nutrition, they can digest highly toxic chemicals. Space marine lore is crazy

But with the massive amount of energy they require that wouldn't actually give them the calories they need to operate.


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 Backspacehacker wrote:


You know a better debate is?

10 terminators deep striked onto the Death Star, who would win.

The Rebel Alliance.

Uhhhhhhhhhhh <.<. >.>' Plot armor yeah plot armor!

A little boy playing with a naboo starfighter can probably win against the Deathstar.

Just saying, Terminator Armour either has force fields or is simply tough enough (depending on which wa you interpret things), to survive Volcano Cannons and plasma. A modern tank shell isn't even close to the power of a Volcano Cannons. A Storm Shield can deflect anything, including Volcano Cannons, Plasma, Orbital bombardments, giant monsters and 10 meter tall robots trying to cut them apart with robot sized chainsaws. A modern tank round wouldn't touch them.


Plus, if Terminators were being sent in, they'd be dropped into the centre of the base and operate extremely complex search patterns to find the commanders and execute them with ease.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It'd be a total massacre. The effect of an M4 carbine on tactical dreadnought armor can be best replicated by firing a nerf gun at a boulder.

I always go back to the saying

"Las gun does diddly....1000 guards man is a gak load of diddly."


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So what is OP comparing to?
Fluff or gameplay?

If it's gameplay, they're slaughtered pretty quick.

If it's fluff, say goodbye to that base, unless there's a plucky soldier in there with plot armour.

Again depends whose writing the fluff, one writer says they are a walking tank able to punch through tank armor, another says a single gene stealer can kill a terminator.

You have to remember that a Lasgun is superior in all respects to a modern military rifle. A Lasgun can blow holes in concrete and sever limbs with a well placed shot. And a direct hit in the torso is pretty much a death sentence even with care. Sooo... You may need more than just 1000 M4 Carbines/SCARs/MTAR-21s etc.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
SM eat superconcentrated nutrient gruel and their waste is recycled by the armour. They did solve that one.

So all you need to do to defeat Space Marines is to cut off their supply of porridge and watch them starve to death.

Space marines can still consume the courses of their enemies to gain their nutrition, they can digest highly toxic chemicals. Space marine lore is crazy

Yeah, its crazy because they are genetically engineered to remove all of human's weaknesses.



They are strong enough that they aren't really limited by weight of gear.
Their bones, regenerative abilities, healing factor and willpower means they lack human squishiness to die in a single bullet. They have things like an extra heart, even.
Their vision, a real limiting factor in modern militaries, as a man who can't see well can't shoot guns well, limiting his usefulness, is massive improved. Can also see in IR and UV spectrums according to some sources, giving them a built in NV and blacklight (so they can see all the heresy on the ceiling)
Their hearing and balance are massively improved, making them immune to flashbang type weapons.
They are immune to drowning, and with their pain threshold, makes them immune to torture as we know it (such as kneecapping or waterboarding)
Strength to break steel with ease, and can spit acid, making them hard to subdue.
Barely need to eat even, so can't starve them, and they can eat anything between their toxin processing, their super-stomach and super-extra stomach. Can even eat their enemies, thus gaining intel
Their armour augments basically everything, making them immune to almost all small arms, doubling their strength and sensory inputs.
They carry .75 caliber guns, with explosive AP rounds.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It'd be a total massacre. The effect of an M4 carbine on tactical dreadnought armor can be best replicated by firing a nerf gun at a boulder.

I always go back to the saying

"Las gun does diddly....1000 guards man is a gak load of diddly."


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So what is OP comparing to?
Fluff or gameplay?

If it's gameplay, they're slaughtered pretty quick.

If it's fluff, say goodbye to that base, unless there's a plucky soldier in there with plot armour.

Again depends whose writing the fluff, one writer says they are a walking tank able to punch through tank armor, another says a single gene stealer can kill a terminator.

You have to remember that a Lasgun is superior in all respects to a modern military rifle. A Lasgun can blow holes in concrete and sever limbs with a well placed shot. And a direct hit in the torso is pretty much a death sentence even with care. Sooo... You may need more than just 1000 M4 Carbines/SCARs/MTAR-21s etc.

It's the same effectiveness as a human punching. Lasguns aren't that effective even against unarmored foes. So, not it's not superior to a modern rifle in any way except number of shots.

Your using game stats to determine that. The Background shows that the Las Guns are much more powerful than a modern assault rifle. A standard bullet isn't blowing off a limb clean or blasting chunks of concrete off the wall in one shot.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Last I checked the imperium uses much much stronger materials then we do. Since its straight up fantasy and doesn't exist I reserve my right to call it supermaterials. Which I think accentuates the silliness of this thread.

The Imperium doesn't have night vision gear on their tanks.

It's not as advanced as you think it is...

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It'd be a total massacre. The effect of an M4 carbine on tactical dreadnought armor can be best replicated by firing a nerf gun at a boulder.

I always go back to the saying

"Las gun does diddly....1000 guards man is a gak load of diddly."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So what is OP comparing to?
Fluff or gameplay?

If it's gameplay, they're slaughtered pretty quick.

If it's fluff, say goodbye to that base, unless there's a plucky soldier in there with plot armour.

Again depends whose writing the fluff, one writer says they are a walking tank able to punch through tank armor, another says a single gene stealer can kill a terminator.

You have to remember that a Lasgun is superior in all respects to a modern military rifle. A Lasgun can blow holes in concrete and sever limbs with a well placed shot. And a direct hit in the torso is pretty much a death sentence even with care. Sooo... You may need more than just 1000 M4 Carbines/SCARs/MTAR-21s etc.

It's the same effectiveness as a human punching. Lasguns aren't that effective even against unarmored foes. So, not it's not superior to a modern rifle in any way except number of shots.

a standard human punching a marine in Deathwatch cannot actually harm him, at all, take off the power armour and even then it usually requires a crit.


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 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Last I checked the imperium uses much much stronger materials then we do. Since its straight up fantasy and doesn't exist I reserve my right to call it supermaterials. Which I think accentuates the silliness of this thread.

The Imperium doesn't have night vision gear on their tanks.

It's not as advanced as you think it is...

um... yes it does, as shown in Necropolis, Taros campaign etc. you know just because your not explicitly told about it, doesn't mean its not there.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It'd be a total massacre. The effect of an M4 carbine on tactical dreadnought armor can be best replicated by firing a nerf gun at a boulder.

I always go back to the saying

"Las gun does diddly....1000 guards man is a gak load of diddly."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So what is OP comparing to?
Fluff or gameplay?

If it's gameplay, they're slaughtered pretty quick.

If it's fluff, say goodbye to that base, unless there's a plucky soldier in there with plot armour.

Again depends whose writing the fluff, one writer says they are a walking tank able to punch through tank armor, another says a single gene stealer can kill a terminator.

You have to remember that a Lasgun is superior in all respects to a modern military rifle. A Lasgun can blow holes in concrete and sever limbs with a well placed shot. And a direct hit in the torso is pretty much a death sentence even with care. Sooo... You may need more than just 1000 M4 Carbines/SCARs/MTAR-21s etc.

It's the same effectiveness as a human punching. Lasguns aren't that effective even against unarmored foes. So, not it's not superior to a modern rifle in any way except number of shots.

Don't bring game rules into a fluff discussion. They make absolutely no sense.

Well Space Marine tanks do, between their optical enhancements that let the see in IR and UV, and their autosenses.

They make a lot more sense than the fluff written by gibbering illiterate baboons.


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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Your using game stats to determine that. The Background shows that the Las Guns are much more powerful than a modern assault rifle. A standard bullet isn't blowing off a limb clean or blasting chunks of concrete off the wall in one shot.

The background shows nothing, because it doesn't exist in the actual model that is the game. If there's no rule for it, it doesn't exist.

The bottom line is that terminator armor is embarrassing, as is all Imperial equipment really.

Martel732 wrote:
They make a lot more sense than the fluff written by gibbering illiterate baboons.


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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Your using game stats to determine that. The Background shows that the Las Guns are much more powerful than a modern assault rifle. A standard bullet isn't blowing off a limb clean or blasting chunks of concrete off the wall in one shot.

The background shows nothing, because it doesn't exist in the actual model that is the game. If there's no rule for it, it doesn't exist.

Well, then, there are no models or rules for modern military soldiers or their weapons in 40k. So therefore the Terminators win by default because they are facing a non-existent foe by your logic.

Martel732 wrote:
They make a lot more sense than the fluff written by gibbering illiterate baboons.


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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Your using game stats to determine that. The Background shows that the Las Guns are much more powerful than a modern assault rifle. A standard bullet isn't blowing off a limb clean or blasting chunks of concrete off the wall in one shot.

The background shows nothing, because it doesn't exist in the actual model that is the game. If there's no rule for it, it doesn't exist.

lol your just trolling at this point, if you hate the fluff so much, go elsewhere, were discussing a hypothetical situation vs a hypothetical force, and your claiming only the rules cant be used because nothing else "exists", we know that space marines are not real, the only thing that can be considered is the fluff, the rules do not reflect the fluff very well with marines, or many armies for that matter, and the rules are made for balance, so marines are toned down, but you know this, so carry on trolling bro.

oh and I'm going to use your reasoning, there are no rules in the fluff, so the game doesn't exist.

Terminators win every time hell a normal marine squad would win. Fluff wise terminator armour is almost indestructible by any of our weapons even nukes although the concussion force would knock them down they would get back up. What is also been missed is these marines battle experience is probably around 100 times that of the most battle hardened veteran on the planet. They can think and act in a blink of an eye.

To be honest fluff wise they wouldn't need to teleport into middle of the base they could walk up to the front door and all we could do was put on a light show.

But game wise hell just look at them the wrong way and they would die horribly but it is fun killing them with gretchin just brings a smile to your face.

 Formosa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They make a lot more sense than the fluff written by gibbering illiterate baboons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Your using game stats to determine that. The Background shows that the Las Guns are much more powerful than a modern assault rifle. A standard bullet isn't blowing off a limb clean or blasting chunks of concrete off the wall in one shot.

The background shows nothing, because it doesn't exist in the actual model that is the game. If there's no rule for it, it doesn't exist.

lol your just trolling at this point, if you hate the fluff so much, go elsewhere, were discussing a hypothetical situation vs a hypothetical force, and your claiming only the rules cant be used because nothing else "exists", we know that space marines are not real, the only thing that can be considered is the fluff, the rules do not reflect the fluff very well with marines, or many armies for that matter, and the rules are made for balance, so marines are toned down, but you know this, so carry on trolling bro.

oh and I'm going to use your reasoning, there are no rules in the fluff, so the game doesn't exist.

Shotguns can clearly kill terminators though. My friend does it all the time with scouts. They can't be that great.

And the concrete destroying lasguns don't appear to exist from my games against Imperial Guard. Guardsmen can barely kill another guardsmen with them.

" and the rules are made for balance"

Now you are just being silly.

Termies, the combo of them being well armoured and armed with futuristic storm bolters against modern tech would be a slaughter

Considering how gakky the ''super'' material the IOM uses when hard numbers are added to it, the termies are going to die

 Bobthehero wrote:
Considering how gakky the ''super'' material the IOM uses when hard numbers are added to it, the termies are going to die

And that the super material often contradicts itself. Ceramite is described as being very strong but also conducting basically no heat. That is impossible. Strength comes from the atomic bonds and the types of atomic bonds which give you high strength also give you high thermal conductivity by allowing the vibrations of the atoms to spread through those bonds.

Regardless of the variable fluff strength of terminator armor. . . the terminators are going to run out of ammo prior to eliminating the majority of the base. Their rate of fire combined with the size of the shell and their limited availability of additional ammo magazines means they'll barely have enough rounds to take down a couple platoons. And then they're down to using power-fists. And given that they're usually shown as being slow movers in terminator armor (it being originally designed for deep space industrial work), they can probably just be outmaneuvered until the heavy weapons are brought against them. At which point they will be brought down.

I think a tactical squad would have a better chance actually. They're fast, mobile, and the terminators weapons are largely overkill against generally unarmored modern infantry.

Martel732 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They make a lot more sense than the fluff written by gibbering illiterate baboons.


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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Your using game stats to determine that. The Background shows that the Las Guns are much more powerful than a modern assault rifle. A standard bullet isn't blowing off a limb clean or blasting chunks of concrete off the wall in one shot.

The background shows nothing, because it doesn't exist in the actual model that is the game. If there's no rule for it, it doesn't exist.

lol your just trolling at this point, if you hate the fluff so much, go elsewhere, were discussing a hypothetical situation vs a hypothetical force, and your claiming only the rules cant be used because nothing else "exists", we know that space marines are not real, the only thing that can be considered is the fluff, the rules do not reflect the fluff very well with marines, or many armies for that matter, and the rules are made for balance, so marines are toned down, but you know this, so carry on trolling bro.

oh and I'm going to use your reasoning, there are no rules in the fluff, so the game doesn't exist.

Shotguns can clearly kill terminators though. My friend does it all the time with scouts. They can't be that great.

And the concrete destroying lasguns don't appear to exist from my games against Imperial Guard. Guardsmen can barely kill another guardsmen with them.

" and the rules are made for balance"

Now you are just being silly.

Why are you arguing game rules in a thread about a hypothetical scenario that can exist in said game? Nor set up to be one? You're arguing game stats versus lore and you deny even acknowledging that the lore is valid! Unless you believe that 40k is an accurate simulation of real life which... it isn't. An M4 Carbine would be statted out as S3 since it's a kind of Autogun and, according to you, that would make it inferior to itself because it can't hit harder than a man punches!

Your arguments make no sense at all.

Well it depends where they drop.... If they hit Britain, Sweden or Germany then they are pretty much dead. Hell, who cares about APDS shells when we have HESH which will not only pulverise their bones and organs through sheer concussive force but also turn their own armour against them.
More to the point those .75 HE shells are only ever going to be good against infantry, soft skins and aircraft. And they will be impossible to reload so once the Terminators are out they are screwed. Of course they have their power fists/lightning claws/chainfists/thunder hammers but they first have to get close enough to use them and therein lies the problem because Terminator armour slows the wearer down massively. So the basic infantry will just back away wilst shooting and the terminators will never even get close. Outnumbered, out gunned and out manoeuvred they will die like rats in trap.

(Oh and BTW, I saw someone earlier state that the Abrahams is the best tank in the world. I would like to take this opportunity laugh at them and point them i the direction of the Leopard 2 and Challenger 2, both of which are vastly superior to the ageing Abrahams)

The Abrams (like the Leo2 and other tanks) has been upgraded consistently throughout its life. The A6 Leo2's have a leg up on it with a longer barreled gun (with A5's retaining the same gun as the Abrams), maybe Challenger 2 also, but there's no quantum leap between these machines, the quality of crews and command are going to make a far greater difference than the minor capability differences. More importantly, there's also several multiples more Abrams in service than their are modernized Leo2's and Challenger 2's combined, there's only about 400 ish Challenger 2's, with maybe a thousand Leo2's in service of A5/A6 or variant thereof, as opposed to ~7000 Abrams A1 and newer variants in service.

This is one of those questions that can really only answered by defining what version of terminator fluff you go by.
Tabletop mechanics where massed grots can wipe a squad? kerbstomp Earth.
Mid level fluff where termies can wade through heavy forces but are vulnerable, relatively slow and limited in support? probably a termie loss albeit taking guys down with them.
Uber fluff where they wade through entire divisions? Well, you know that outcome.

 Ratius wrote:
This is one of those questions that can really only answered by defining what version of terminator fluff you go by.
Tabletop mechanics where massed grots can wipe a squad? kerbstomp Earth.
Mid level fluff where termies can wade through heavy forces but are vulnerable, relatively slow and limited in support? probably a termie loss albeit taking guys down with them.
Uber fluff where they wade through entire divisions? Well, you know that outcome.

Or those somersaulting terminators?

 master of ordinance wrote:


(Oh and BTW, I saw someone earlier state that the Abrahams is the best tank in the world. I would like to take this opportunity laugh at them and point them i the direction of the Leopard 2 and Challenger 2, both of which are vastly superior to the ageing Abrahams)

The people that will tell you the Abrams is the best tank in the world, even compared to the Leo 2 and Challenger 2, are the people who have real world experience. Not read it in books or on the internet.

It's not a matter of gun or powertrain or armor or situational awareness. It's a matter of the M1 series has logged more combat time, and thus the improvements from M1 to M1A1 to M1A2SEP to the M1A3 are all a result of combat, not "this might work better" good idea fairies. Comparing the 3 tanks listed, there's also a difference in tank philosophy between the 3 developers. Neither Britain nor Germany rely on their heavy units. Sure, they have some tanks, but they will gleefully drop a much-needed improvement to save money. The US, on the other hand, has repeatedly proven to itself the power of a heavy BCT, and money gets spent on the M1-series as soon as the need for an improvement is noted. The US has enough tanks for improvements to get some economy of scale, but not so many it's prohibitively expensive. As opposed to why the Brits didn't dump the challenger 2's rifled gun, even though HESH has been outclassed by modern armor layering and spall liners.

 Desubot wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
This is one of those questions that can really only answered by defining what version of terminator fluff you go by.
Tabletop mechanics where massed grots can wipe a squad? kerbstomp Earth.
Mid level fluff where termies can wade through heavy forces but are vulnerable, relatively slow and limited in support? probably a termie loss albeit taking guys down with them.
Uber fluff where they wade through entire divisions? Well, you know that outcome.

Or those somersaulting terminators?

Nah mate, they tuck their arms and legs in and roll very fast.
Ultramarines are particularly adept at this maneuver, capable at going at sonic speeds.

 Commissar Terrence wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:


Im assuming the petty abram's would maybe dent the armour. And a rpg would just probably bounce off the armour. And it will take a helluva long time to break there weapons with basic military rounds. And if that happened they'll just rely on power fists and there sheer lack of getting there amour pierced. Now if they didn't have a helmet. The marines could just shoot them in the head. And the termie's can just punch the tanks until there's nothing left. optic's could leave them a bit exposed due to the lack of sight. But that's a small chance of doing that due to spread. And before hand the termie's could just teleport into the armoury and detonate that before anyone know's what's going on. And now even with marines with odd amounts of weapons wont be able to dent the armour with small arm's and knifes. And they could also teleport near where the vehicles are stored and simply break destroy them or rig them beforehand. So here's a image of what the marines would be after the Tactical Dreadnought armour squad are done with the entire base.

Dude, don't ask for people's opinions using a poorly stated, incomplete guideline and then arrogantly and brashly brush aside what people say in response. If you wanted to point out that 5 Terminators could destroy everything on the planet without taking casualties, state it as a hypothesis. Asking "what would happen if..." and then coming back with "nope, you're wrong because of some parameters I didn't specify" just seems like trolling.

Basically, you posted a fluff/ background question in the general forum without stating you were looking for a fluff based answer.