In a previous thread in this subforum, there was a debate about whether PE confers the ability to reroll the scatter dice for a blast template.

This argument ultimately involved me arguing that blast weapons roll, in some sense, to hit.

My question:

P. 185 of the space marines codex (the rules for the suppression force) explicitly gives the whirlwinds in that formation the ability to reroll TO HIT when firing their whirlwind multiple missile launchers.

All of the whirlwind missile launchers fire large blasts.

My question: RAW, if blast weapons do not roll to Hit, does this mean that the suppression force formation actually provides no advantage whatsoever?

The same thing happens to the special Imperial Guard Tank Commander - Pask, he gets a special ability depending on the choice of main gun.

When firing a battle cannon, vanquisher battle cannon, demolisher siege cannon or eradicator nova cannon, Pask can re-roll To Hit rolls.

The people writing the Codexes certainly seem to think that re-rolling to hit rolls works with blasts.

I believe you would get to re-roll to hit with a blast if it had twin linked. Why not if it just states you get a flat out re-roll?

 bomtek80 wrote:
I believe you would get to re-roll to hit with a blast if it had twin linked. Why not if it just states you get a flat out re-roll?

Twin-linked actually addresses Blast Rerolls, if I remember correctly.

 Charistoph wrote:

 bomtek80 wrote:
I believe you would get to re-roll to hit with a blast if it had twin linked. Why not if it just states you get a flat out re-roll?

Twin-linked actually addresses Blast Rerolls, if I remember correctly.

So, what do you say, Charistoph. Do whirlwinds get to reroll their TO HIT roll or not?

Yes, they get to reroll their scatter, because they have the ability to reroll to-hit

Blast weapons explicitly do not roll to hit. The rule stating such was given quitre a few times. It is impossible to state they do roll to hit given this rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, they get to reroll their scatter, because they have the ability to reroll to-hit

Blast weapons explicitly do not roll to hit. The rule stating such was given quitre a few times. It is impossible to state they do roll to hit given this rule.

How can they reroll to Hit if they don't roll to Hit?

Maybe the supression force was intended to confer no benefits.

Blast and Rerolls doesn't care about rolling to hit, it cares if you have the ability to rerolling to hit.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Blast and Rerolls doesn't care about rolling to hit, it cares if you have the ability to rerolling to hit.

#facepalm

I quote the rule: "...all shooting attacks made with Whirlwind multiple missile launchers by models in this Formation against the nominated can re-roll To Hit..."

Therefore, they roll to hit.

That's a tautology.

Traditio wrote:
How can they reroll to Hit if they don't roll to Hit?

Maybe the supression force was intended to confer no benefits.

They don't roll To Hit as much as they roll to see What they hit (hence the Scatter Dice), which if you think about it is essentially the same thing. I can't find a rule that specifically states that To Hit rolls when talking about a Blast Weapon refers to the Scatter Dice, but given the aforementioned definition, I don't think it's beyond the bounds of "Rules As Intended" to think of it that way.

So this really is a case of interpretation and Rules As Intended (unless someone can find a rule that supports one way or the other), meaning that I would play PE as allowing people to re-roll the Scatter Dice, but you'd have to re-roll the 2D6 as well. Plus as you said: If To Hit doesn't refer to the Scatter Dice for Blast Weapons, then the Suppression Force is near useless, if not completely useless haha.

P.S. As far as the Twin-Linked thing, that refers specifically to the Scatter Dice rather than saying "To Hit".

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Blast and Rerolls doesn't care about rolling to hit, it cares if you have the ability to rerolling to hit.

#facepalm

I quote the rule: "...all shooting attacks made with Whirlwind multiple missile launchers by models in this Formation against the nominated can re-roll To Hit..."

Therefore, they roll to hit.

That's a tautology.

The blasts rules specifically say they do not roll to hit.

CrownAxe wrote:The blasts rules specifically say they do not roll to hit.

And the rule I just quoted says they do.

Your move, CA.

CrownAxe wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Blast and Rerolls doesn't care about rolling to hit, it cares if you have the ability to rerolling to hit.

#facepalm

I quote the rule: "...all shooting attacks made with Whirlwind multiple missile launchers by models in this Formation against the nominated can re-roll To Hit..."

Therefore, they roll to hit.

That's a tautology.

The blasts rules specifically say they do not roll to hit.

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:The blasts rules specifically say they do not roll to hit.

And the rule I just quoted says they do.

Your move, CA.

Let's not escalate this, guys.

May I direct you both to my previous post on this thread? Without trying to toot my own horn, I think I covered it pretty well.

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:The blasts rules specifically say they do not roll to hit.

And the rule I just quoted says they do.

Your move, CA.

What;s your point? Weren't you the one saying that PE wouldn't let you reroll scatter and now you have proof that it does?

Why are you calling me California?

IllumiNini wrote:May I direct you both to my previous post on this thread? Without trying to toot my own horn, I think I covered it pretty well.

Your posting basically sums up my thoughts on the matter.

That said, I want to make a stronger claim:

Either:

Our view actually has the support of RAW (the Datalink Telemetry rule I cited explicitly says that blast weapons (vis-a-vis whirlwind multiple missile launchers) roll to hit)

or

The datalink Telemetry rules do absolutely nothing and are complete nonsense.

I suppose when you are rolling Scatter, you are rolling to hit. Hence why there is a Hit on the die.

CrownAxe wrote:What;s your point? Weren't you the one saying that PE wouldn't let you reroll scatter and now you have proof that it does?

Quite the opposite!

Blast weapons roll to hit (pretty much explicitly stated on p. 185 of the SM codex).

PE allows rerolls of 1s to hit.

Blast weapons cannot roll 1s to hit.

Therefore, etc.

Why are you calling me California?

Because I just lit a wildfire to your interpretation of the rules, dawg!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I suppose when you are rolling Scatter, you are rolling to hit. Hence why there is a Hit on the die.

My. Very. Argument.

CrownAxe wrote:Why are you calling me California?

Best response I've read in a while haha.

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:May I direct you both to my previous post on this thread? Without trying to toot my own horn, I think I covered it pretty well.

Your posting basically sums up my thoughts on the matter.

That said, I want to make a stronger claim:

Either:

Our view actually has the support of RAW (the Datalink Telemetry rule I cited explicitly says that blast weapons (vis-a-vis whirlwind multiple missile launchers) roll to hit)

or

The datalink Telemetry rules do absolutely nothing and are complete nonsense.

I think our view is the correct one, but there's simply a lack of clarity on GW's end. I might trawl through some FAQs to see if I can find anything.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I suppose when you are rolling Scatter, you are rolling to hit. Hence why there is a Hit on the die.

Maybe an over-simplification and a little bit of a stretch, but the logic is there and the result is the same haha


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

Why are you calling me California?

Because I just lit a wildfire to your interpretation of the rules, dawg!

Oh wow.. haha

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:What;s your point? Weren't you the one saying that PE wouldn't let you reroll scatter and now you have proof that it does?

Quite the opposite!

Blast weapons roll to hit (pretty much explicitly stated on p. 185 of the SM codex).

PE allows rerolls of 1s to hit.

Blast weapons cannot roll 1s to hit.

Therefore, etc.

Why are you calling me California?

Because I just lit a wildfire to your interpretation of the rules, dawg!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I suppose when you are rolling Scatter, you are rolling to hit. Hence why there is a Hit on the die.

My. Very. Argument.

Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

That simple.

CrownAxe wrote:Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

That simple.

Therefore Datalink Telemetry is complete nonsense as a rule.

Congrats!

 CrownAxe wrote:
Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

That simple.

I don't think that's ever been up for argument per se, but what we're trying to say is that for rules such as Datalink Telemetry and the Special Rule for the Suppression Force which make reference to rolling To Hit with regards to Blast Weapons, is there another rule that connects to two? Or is it "There is no rule connecting them, but players connect the dots to make these rules work."?

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

That simple.

Therefore Datalink Telemetry is complete nonsense as a rule.

Congrats!

No, datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter.

Also i'm pretty sure Whirlwinds can buy non-blast weapons such as hunter-killer missiles and pintle mounted stormbolters

IllumiNini wrote:I don't think that's ever been up for argument per se, but what we're trying to say is that for rules such as Datalink Telemetry and the Special Rule for the Suppression Force which make reference to rolling To Hit with regards to Blast Weapons, is there another rule that connects to two? Or is it "There is no rule connecting them, but players connect the dots to make these rules work."?

Basically, my interpretation is this:

The rule that says that blast weapons don't roll to Hit means this:

They don't roll to Hit dice. They don't compare a 1d6 roll to 7 - [BS of the firing model].

Their to Hit roll is a placement of the blast template and a rolling of the scatter dice.

That's why there is a HIT result on 2 out of 6 facings on the scatter die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrownAxe wrote:No, datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter.

Also i'm pretty sure Whirlwinds can buy non-blast weapons such as hunter-killer missiles and pintle mounted stormbolters

I'll quote the rule again: "...all shooting attacks MADE WITH WHIRLWIND MULTIPLE MISSILE LAUNCHERS by models in this formation against the nominated can RE-ROLL TO HIT..."

It doesn't confer an ability to re-roll to hit with non-blast weapons. It confers an ability to re-roll TO HIT made by a weapon that can ONLY fire a blast weapon.

Therefore, blast weapons roll to Hit.

QED.

Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

Datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter. Therefore it still is a functional rule

QED

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:I don't think that's ever been up for argument per se, but what we're trying to say is that for rules such as Datalink Telemetry and the Special Rule for the Suppression Force which make reference to rolling To Hit with regards to Blast Weapons, is there another rule that connects to two? Or is it "There is no rule connecting them, but players connect the dots to make these rules work."?

Basically, my interpretation is this:

The rule that says that blast weapons don't roll to Hit means this:

They don't roll to Hit dice. They don't compare a 1d6 roll to 7 - [BS of the firing model].

Their to Hit roll is a placement of the blast template and a rolling of the scatter dice.

That's why there is a HIT result on 2 out of 6 facings on the scatter die.

Don't worry, mate. We're in agreement on this.

CrownAxe wrote:

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

That simple.

Therefore Datalink Telemetry is complete nonsense as a rule.

Congrats!

No, datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter.

Also i'm pretty sure Whirlwinds can buy non-blast weapons such as hunter-killer missiles and pintle mounted stormbolters

Where is this "Blast and Re-rolls" rule?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

Datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter. Therefore it still is a functional rule

QED

Please explain to me how a weapon that cannot roll to hit can or should specifically be explicitly granted the ability to reroll to hit.

I'll be waiting with bated breath. [/sarcasm]

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

Datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter. Therefore it still is a functional rule

QED

Please explain to me how a weapon that cannot roll to hit can or should specifically be explicitly granted the ability to reroll to hit.

I'll be waiting with bated breath. [/sarcasm]

"Blast and Rerolls" doesn't care if you trigger the reroll, just that you have an ability to do so. Having the rule means you have the ability to do so


@IllumiNini - Pg 158, In the Blast rules

 CrownAxe wrote:
@IllumiNini - Pg 158, In the Blast rules

Derpa-Derp-Derp on my part. Completely glazed over it. In that case, that rule answers the question 100% perfectly.

CrownAxe wrote:"Blast and Rerolls" doesn't care if you trigger the reroll, just that you have an ability to do so. Having the rule means you have the ability to do so

The rule SPECIFICALLY says that a particular blast weapon can reroll to Hit.

What you are saying is that the GW design members had essentially the following train of thought/conversation with each other:

"So uh...blast weapons can't roll to hit. But the blast rules say that a model with the ability to reroll to hit can reroll the scatter dice, even though they don't reroll to hit. Hey, here's a SPECIFIC FETHING BLAST WEAPON. Let's confer it the ability to reroll to hit. Oh, sure, it can't roll to hit in the first place. But let's grant it the ABILITY to do so (even though it can never actually use it) so that it can take advantage of this very strange rule in the BRB."

But you must pardon me if I fail to keep a straight face.

How is it weird to design a rule with existing rules of the game in mind?

How is "Blasts and Rerolls" a very strange rule?

 CrownAxe wrote:
How is it weird to design a rule with existing rules of the game in mind?

How is "Blasts and Rerolls" a very strange rule?

I'm just saying. Whoever wrote the rule on p. 185 of C:SM clearly thought that blast weapons roll to hit.

Suggestions to the contrary are simply ridiculous/implausible.

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
How is it weird to design a rule with existing rules of the game in mind?

How is "Blasts and Rerolls" a very strange rule?

I'm just saying. Whoever wrote the rule on p. 185 of C:SM clearly thought that blast weapons roll to hit.

Suggestions to the contrary are simply ridiculous/implausible.

No, they clearly thought that "Blasts and Rerolls" existed and so could use it to make Whirlwinds reroll their scatter dice.

Step 1: Roll Scatter die. If Hit, stop. If Scatter, proceed to Step 2.
Step 2: If Scatter is rolled, roll scatter distance. If acceptable, stop. If not acceptable, proceed to Step 3.
Step 3: Roll Scatter die. If Hit, stop. If Scatter, proceed to Step 4.
Step 4: If Scatter is rolled, roll scatter distance. Stop.

This is covered in the BRB. You have been provided the exact section where. This. Is. Not. That. Hard.

As CrownAxe said, they knew there was a rules statement that covered this. And this way, when using weapons that aren't Blasts on the Whirlwind, such as a Storm Bolter or Hunter-Killer Missile, the rule still comes into effect.

casvalremdeikun wrote:As CrownAxe said, they knew there was a rules statement that covered this. And this way, when using weapons that aren't Blasts on the Whirlwind, such as a Storm Bolter or Hunter-Killer Missile, the rule still comes into effect.

The rule only applies to the whirlwind missile launchers. Those weapons only fire blasts.

Just saying.

SO, this is another thread where despite the explicit rule stating Blasts Do. not. Roll. To. Hit, Traditio is trying to claim otherwise?

To HIt is a precisely defined in game process. Blast weapons explicitly do not roll To Hit. It is not possible to sensible argue against that position, because as shown by Traditio, the only argument is to chaneg the wording of the rule, and then say THAT means blast weapons roll to hit. WHich is a nonsense.

Here, the Blasts nad Rerolls rules means the Whirlwind launchers can reroll scatter, as they have the ability to reroll their to hit. This is an unqualified abiltiy to reroll, which is unusual, but it doesnt matter, because Blasts and Rerolls places NO qualifying criteria on "how good" your ability IS, just that yuou HAVE an ability. This has also been proven over and over, and is also why PE works. This is not arguable against without again altering the rules, and is thus proven (in as much as it can be in a ruleset constructed by GW)

So, done here right?

The issue with PE and blasts is not about rerolls to hit, and blasts not rolling to hit. Blasts and rerolls covers the lack of to hit rolls just fine.

The issue with blasts and PE is that PE gives a reroll to hit against a specific taget or group of targets, but blasts and rerolls only cares that the ability to reroll to hit exists(without consideration for rerolls against the target in question)

Personally I never reroll scatter for PE unless it is against said PE(just like the regular to hits). For example if I have a unit with a blast weapon and PE Eldar, and I am firing at an Eldar unit, I will go ahead and reroll t uhh e scatter. If I am instead firing at an Ork unit, I will not ever reroll the scatter even though PE technically grants that allowance.

I disagree. Against your non-PE, if you fired a non-blast, you would NOT have the ability to reroll your to-hit rolls. Thus, if you fire a blast instead you cannot be said to have the ability, and thus you may not reroll.

A diference between having the ability, and meeting any criteria on roll to-hit result. Blasts cares about the former, and not a jot about the latter

It is one of those minced words deals.

You have the ability, situationally.

To some, you always have the ability but it can only be used in the listed situations(an American example is concealed carry laws, with a proper licence you may carry a concealed weapon anywhere that does not specifically ban concealed weapons).

To others you only have the ability under the listed situations.

I personally am in the same camp you are, nos, the latter. I just didn't want to restart the argument with the first camp again and went with an example of HIPI(as a path of least resistance) and explaining to the OP what the actual issue with PE and blasts is.

So, yeah, there is no issue about whether or not blast roll to hit(they do not, but a reroll to hit with a blast does allow a reroll on the scatter); it is(historically) an issue of whether PE always allows a reroll on scatter, or only against the PE target.

OK, fair enough

I'm jsut waiting for the next attempt to say blasts DO roll To Hit

nosferatu1001 wrote:
SO, this is another thread where despite the explicit rule stating Blasts Do. not. Roll. To. Hit, Traditio is trying to claim otherwise?

To HIt is a precisely defined in game process. Blast weapons explicitly do not roll To Hit. It is not possible to sensible argue against that position, because as shown by Traditio, the only argument is to chaneg the wording of the rule, and then say THAT means blast weapons roll to hit. WHich is a nonsense.

Here, the Blasts nad Rerolls rules means the Whirlwind launchers can reroll scatter, as they have the ability to reroll their to hit. This is an unqualified abiltiy to reroll, which is unusual, but it doesnt matter, because Blasts and Rerolls places NO qualifying criteria on "how good" your ability IS, just that yuou HAVE an ability. This has also been proven over and over, and is also why PE works. This is not arguable against without again altering the rules, and is thus proven (in as much as it can be in a ruleset constructed by GW)

So, done here right?

It hasn't been proven, you just keep stating it over and over in a hope people believe it. PE, it doesn't work, the model needs the ability to reroll, and PE does not grant the model the ability. the whirlwind has the ability so it can reroll.

Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

I think PE works on blasts too but I would be lying if I thought it was clear cut. "Ability" isn't very clearly defined and the rule is poorly worded (typical of GW).

But It's pretty clear that Blasts don't roll to hit. The rule book explicitly says so.

Well, Gets hots explicitly states that BS6+ grants the ability to reroll, and has the exact same prerequeisite (rolling a 1 to hit) . It is hard (but, not impossible as has been shown repeatedly) to dismiss identical wording about "ability"as having no relevance.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

Then by all means show how PE grants a MODEL the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

does PE even grant the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls? No

a unit having the ability to reroll to hits of 1 =/= a model having the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

still on about BS6? are you ever going to quote the part you only gain the reroll when you roll a 1, so until a 1 is rolled the model does not have the ability to reroll.

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

Then by all means show how PE grants a MODEL the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

does PE even grant the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls? No

a unit having the ability to reroll to hits of 1 =/= a model having the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

still on about BS6? are you ever going to quote the part you only gain the reroll when you roll a 1, so until a 1 is rolled the model does not have the ability to reroll.

So are you claiming that other than the Suppression Force rule, Twin-linked, and Ammo Runts are the only way to (currently) re-roll scatter?

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

Then by all means show how PE grants a MODEL the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

does PE even grant the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls? No

a unit having the ability to reroll to hits of 1 =/= a model having the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

still on about BS6? are you ever going to quote the part you only gain the reroll when you roll a 1, so until a 1 is rolled the model does not have the ability to reroll.

So are you claiming that other than the Suppression Force rule, Twin-linked, and Ammo Runts are the only way to (currently) re-roll scatter?

and master crafted, and precognition, and maybe a couple more I can't think of right now.

sirlynchmob wrote:
and master crafted, and precognition, and maybe a couple more I can't think of right now.

Well done for walking into HJ's trap - all of those require a pre-requisite, namely, a "miss" or a "failed To-Hit roll", the same applies to Guide, Prescience, and most other re-roll granting abilities require such a thing. The ones HJ mentions just grant a flat re-roll.

Honestly, I was rather hoping this thread wouldn't stray into covering PE, and would just cover those posters from previous similar threads that didn't think Blast Weapons and Re-rolls actually granted Blasts re-rolls from abilities like Guide or Prescience.

 Quanar wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
and master crafted, and precognition, and maybe a couple more I can't think of right now.

Well done for walking into HJ's trap - all of those require a pre-requisite, namely, a "miss" or a "failed To-Hit roll", the same applies to Guide, Prescience, and most other re-roll granting abilities require such a thing. The ones HJ mentions just grant a flat re-roll.

Honestly, I was rather hoping this thread wouldn't stray into covering PE, and would just cover those posters from previous similar threads that didn't think Blast Weapons and Re-rolls actually granted Blasts re-rolls from abilities like Guide or Prescience.

rerolling a failed to hit roll or rerolling to hit rolls to me if functionally identical. It's really not worth mentioning or trying to make some point over.

The key to blasts and rerolls is "does the model have the ability"? in the case of master crafted, yes the model has the ability. for PE, no the model does not, the unit can reroll 1 specific thing.

The problem with Nos's position is it allows for ammo runts to reroll blast weapons every turn.
Does the model have the ability? yes
then as they like to add on the condition doesn't matter, ok so the once per turn doesn't matter. When you press them on it, they will admit it is RAW, but you can imagine them cringing while they do it.

So you admit it IS raw then? Glad to know you've simply been flouting the tenets, again, by failing to mark your posts "hiwpi"

Glad that's settled

You really did walk head first into that trap. It's even one you've fallen for before.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you admit it IS raw then? Glad to know you've simply been flouting the tenets, again, by failing to mark your posts "hiwpi"

Glad that's settled

You really did walk head first into that trap. It's even one you've fallen for before.

LOL, it's always a treat when you mention the tenets as you violate the tenets.

Please quote the rule where PE grants a model the ability to reroll.

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

Then by all means show how PE grants a MODEL the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

does PE even grant the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls? No

a unit having the ability to reroll to hits of 1 =/= a model having the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

still on about BS6? are you ever going to quote the part you only gain the reroll when you roll a 1, so until a 1 is rolled the model does not have the ability to reroll.

-- Check the wording of Preferred Enemy [Page 169 of the BRB] and you might find that it does grant a model the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls against any and all Preferred Enemy targets.
-- Yes it does grant to ability to re-roll To Hit rolls. Check the wording.
-- Yes and no. The ability to re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 is simple a sub-set of being able to re-roll failed To Hit rolls.
-- Yep, rolling a 1 is required to get the re-roll, and from the wording of "Ballistic Skill of 6 or Better", any re-roll conferred from a source other than having a BS of 6 or better takes precedence.

Quanar wrote:Honestly, I was rather hoping this thread wouldn't stray into covering PE, and would just cover those posters from previous similar threads that didn't think Blast Weapons and Re-rolls actually granted Blasts re-rolls from abilities like Guide or Prescience.

So you'd hoped Preferred Enemy wouldn't get covered in this thread even though the OP explicitly mentions it? Righteo...

Ballistic Skill of 6 or Better wrote:If a model has a Special Rule that already confers it a re-roll To Hit (like a Master-Crafted weapon, for example), then that re-roll takes precedence and the chart above is not used. Instead, the chance of hitting with the re-roll is the same as the first shot, depending on the firer's Ballistic Skill. Remember, a dice can only ever be re-rolled once!

Preferred Enemy wrote:This Rule is often presented as Preferred Enemy (x) where X identifies a specific type of foe. if the Special Rule does not specify a type of foe, then everyone is a Preferred Enemy of that unit. A unit that contains at least one model with this Special Rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Would rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy. this applied to both shooting and close combat attacks.

Blast - Blast Weapons and Re-rolls wrote:If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing the last Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6.

So from the first quote, it is easily seen that Preferred Enemy takes precedence when firing against a target that is a Preferred Enemy of the firing unit.

From the wording of Preferred Enemy, I take it to mean that any model (or every model within a unit that contains at least one model with with this Special Rule) can re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1 against their Preferred Enemy. (In all honesty, I'd originally forgot that it was only on failed rolls of 1).

Finally, Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls says that if a model has the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls (which Preferred Enemy confers on a failed roll of 1), then this is where it gets tricky. So how well does this play with PE? Because it does grant a re-roll To Hit which means that the Blast Weapon can re-roll the Scatter Dice and the 2D6, but the condition that it's on a failed roll To Hit of 1 makes it difficult.

So unless somebody can find a specific rule or an official FAQ question about how this translates (which I'm really hoping somebody can), then I think it goes like this (bear in mind this is HIWPI):

(1) If an arrow is rolled on the Scatter Dice, then the player gets to re-roll the Scatter Dice, but must also re-roll the 2D6 and accept the final result on both. [My preference of how to play it.]

-- or --

(2) If an arrow appears on the Scatter Dice and at least one '1' appears on the 2D6, the the player re-rolls the Scatter Dice and the 2D6 and accept the final result on both. [This one sounds a bit iffy to me, but it's still not an entirely unreasonable interpretation].


To Conclude:

(1)So in the generic case of having a re-roll which allows a re-roll of failed To Hit rolls, a Blast Weapon may re-roll the Scatter Dice (but must also re-roll the 2D6).

(2) In a more specific case where it specifies you only get the re-roll of a roll of 1 when rolling To Hit, I think it would be a case of HIWPI combined with agreements made on how to handle it by all players involved.

Conclusion (2) will be invalidated if someone can find a rule that makes specific reference to a case like Preferred Enemy and Blast Weapons.

 IllumiNini wrote:
So you'd hoped Preferred Enemy wouldn't get covered in this thread even though the OP explicitly mentions it? Righteo...

Yeah, no idea why I was thinking that, carry on everyone!

Illumini - youre falling into the trap of even considering "how good" a reroll you need to have BEFORE you can reroll Blasts

Blasts and rerolls is unqualified. It cares NOTHING about "how good" your reroll is; just that you HAVE the abiltiy.

WIth PE at your PE you HAVE the ability. Indisputable by those not ignoring the written rules. And, as we know that Blasts NEVER roll To Hit, we KNOW that any condition on the To Hit roll cannot be important.

THe anti-RAW side make Blasts and Rerolls only work with Twin linked and a couple other edge cases.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Illumini - youre falling into the trap of even considering "how good" a reroll you need to have BEFORE you can reroll Blasts

Blasts and rerolls is unqualified. It cares NOTHING about "how good" your reroll is; just that you HAVE the abiltiy.

WIth PE at your PE you HAVE the ability. Indisputable by those not ignoring the written rules. And, as we know that Blasts NEVER roll To Hit, we KNOW that any condition on the To Hit roll cannot be important.

THe anti-RAW side make Blasts and Rerolls only work with Twin linked and a couple other edge cases.

Well in all honesty, I don't think the whole "How Good" thing is a trap at all because it's conditional. It adds an extra consideration to it.

That being said, I can appreciate the fact that you are more than likely right on this since - regardless of the conditioning - it, as you said, has the ability. So I think we've solved the problem. PE (and anything else that grants Re-rolls on To Hit rolls) will allow Blast Weapons to re-roll the Scatter Dice and 2D6.

Well it must be a trap - because you can never roll To Hit, so any condition placed on how well you have hit must be ignored. If it isnt ignored - and luckily for us, it is! - you end up with the rule not having any function

For some reason the sirlynch et al crowd like to hand wave away the difference between reroll to hit rolls, and reroll failed to hit rolls as unimportant, yet then conveniently whistle in the air when you talk about a twinlinked BS5+ model vs a BS5+ model with preferred enemy. They both "fail" on exactly the same number, yet for one they claim you DONT care about "how well" they failed, the other they do. Even though you never roll to hit, but that just gets glossed over

ITs an argument so shot through of every hole imaginable its a wonder they still bother arguing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Well it must be a trap - because you can never roll To Hit, so any condition placed on how well you have hit must be ignored. If it isnt ignored - and luckily for us, it is! - you end up with the rule not having any function

For some reason the sirlynch et al crowd like to hand wave away the difference between reroll to hit rolls, and reroll failed to hit rolls as unimportant, yet then conveniently whistle in the air when you talk about a twinlinked BS5+ model vs a BS5+ model with preferred enemy. They both "fail" on exactly the same number, yet for one they claim you DONT care about "how well" they failed, the other they do. Even though you never roll to hit, but that just gets glossed over

ITs an argument so shot through of every hole imaginable its a wonder they still bother arguing.

odd I haven't made that argument, you must be arguing with the voices in your head again.

Show where PE grants a model the ability to reroll. Still waiting. And that is the only reason PE does not work with blasts.

I know you just want to use ammo runts every turn in the game, but at least read the question, and answer the question, and follow the tenets.

I am confused here. Blast weapons and re-rolls has been quoted many times and the only requirement laid out is that if the model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls they can choose to do so but must re-roll both scatter dice.

It doesn't require actual rolling of To Hit dice.

Why then would this not work with PE, Whirlwinds, BS6+ and whatnot?

Naw wrote:
I am confused here. Blast weapons and re-rolls has been quoted many times and the only requirement laid out is that if the model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls they can choose to do so but must re-roll both scatter dice.

It doesn't require actual rolling of To Hit dice.

Why then would this not work with PE, Whirlwinds, BS6+ and whatnot?

Because most of them come with qualifications and for some reason those qualifications limit when you have the ability to reroll.

Traditio wrote:
In a previous thread in this subforum, there was a debate about whether PE confers the ability to reroll the scatter dice for a blast template.

This argument ultimately involved me arguing that blast weapons roll, in some sense, to hit.

My question:

P. 185 of the space marines codex (the rules for the suppression force) explicitly gives the whirlwinds in that formation the ability to reroll TO HIT when firing their whirlwind multiple missile launchers.

All of the whirlwind missile launchers fire large blasts.

My question: RAW, if blast weapons do not roll to Hit, does this mean that the suppression force formation actually provides no advantage whatsoever?

GW screwed that one up. It should be like the formation out of the damnos book. It says re-roll the scatter die.

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
I am confused here. Blast weapons and re-rolls has been quoted many times and the only requirement laid out is that if the model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls they can choose to do so but must re-roll both scatter dice.

It doesn't require actual rolling of To Hit dice.

Why then would this not work with PE, Whirlwinds, BS6+ and whatnot?

Because most of them come with qualifications and for some reason those qualifications limit when you have the ability to reroll.

I didn't mean that PE Space Marines would let you reroll against Tau. Is this what the argument is about? Even after reading the thread I'm not sure

Naw wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
I am confused here. Blast weapons and re-rolls has been quoted many times and the only requirement laid out is that if the model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls they can choose to do so but must re-roll both scatter dice.

It doesn't require actual rolling of To Hit dice.

Why then would this not work with PE, Whirlwinds, BS6+ and whatnot?

Because most of them come with qualifications and for some reason those qualifications limit when you have the ability to reroll.

I didn't mean that PE Space Marines would let you reroll against Tau. Is this what the argument is about? Even after reading the thread I'm not sure

It's not the what you are attacking that is the qualification, it is the specific Roll that they feel needs to be achieved in order to be able to reroll, i.e. the 1 To Hit. Never mind that most of the other To Hit Rerolls also require a Miss of some kind in order to be able to reroll like Twin Linked.

I do not agree with this, personally, but that is how it is how it has been explained to me. I feel that this is a over analyzing the term "ability" to its most restrictive interpretation. It's almost like limiting your identification as a painter by not only if you have a brush and paint, but how good your brush is and how strong your technique is or by how much you get paid to paint.

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
I didn't mean that PE Space Marines would let you reroll against Tau. Is this what the argument is about? Even after reading the thread I'm not sure

It's not the what you are attacking that is the qualification, it is the specific Roll that they feel needs to be achieved in order to be able to reroll, i.e. the 1 To Hit. Never mind that most of the other To Hit Rerolls also require a Miss of some kind in order to be able to reroll like Twin Linked.

I do not agree with this, personally, but that is how it is how it has been explained to me. I feel that this is a over analyzing the term "ability" to its most restrictive interpretation. It's almost like limiting your identification as a painter by not only if you have a brush and paint, but how good your brush is and how strong your technique is or by how much you get paid to paint.

Ah, so this is the other discussion. What PE actually says is that ... re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1. What the rule doesn't say is Re-rolls To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1. I guess that's where the argument comes from. Some read it to say that any failed To Hit rolls and To Wound rolls of 1, whereas others that both To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1.

As I don't have PE with any of my armies, I haven't paid any attention to the actual wording of the rule, I've just trusted what my Necron opponent has told me. Just goes to show that you should always verify what the rule really says

To summarize, PE does not give the ability to re-roll blast weapons, ever. How I'd (and will continue to) play it: Go ahead and reroll both dice.

Naw wrote:
[quote=Charistoph 688235 8605933 f45b9b45c8512f4742541d2a5a08a68d.jpgTo summarize, PE does not give the ability to re-roll blast weapons, ever. How I'd (and will continue to) play it: Go ahead and reroll both dice.

The thing is, what happens after that qualification is accomplished? You get to reroll. And that is the other side of the equation.

Does Preferred Enemy provide a reroll To Hit? Yes, it does. It is more restricted than Twin Linked and has the same target number of a reroll that BS 6+ has, but the ability to reroll is still there. The Blast Rerolls rule doesn't care about the To Hit Roll, since it does not use them, so it looks for what it would have if it wasn't Blast.

Would Preferred Enemy provide a reroll to anyone not on its list? No. So, a PE Blast against something you have no PE with would not work.

 Charistoph wrote:

Would Preferred Enemy provide a reroll to anyone not on its list? No. So, a PE Blast against something you have no PE with would not work.

and why would it not ? you still have the ability to re-roll. You are not fulfilling the requirement with needing to roll a 1 on to hit either. Why only use 1 restriction and not both or neither ?

Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

Especially as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

But you still have the ability to reroll , you just can't meet the prerequisites , it is no different from requiring to roll a 1 to hit Which you say you get to ignore because " it doesn't matter how good a re-roll is"

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote: as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

So if you cannot fulfill a qualifier you get to ignore its existence an do it anyways ? ? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

Especially as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

This is where your argument is consistently wrong. BS6 gives you the opportunity to GAIN a reroll, it does not grant one. This is obvious to anyone who reads page 33.

kambien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

But you still have the ability to reroll , you just can't meet the prerequisites , it is no different from requiring to roll a 1 to hit Which you say you get to ignore because " it doesn't matter how good a re-roll is"

No, you do not have the ability

If you were firing a bolter, you could not reroll ANY to hit roll, regardless of the result. So, no ability to reroll to hit. Proven. Again.

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote: as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

So if you cannot fulfill a qualifier you get to ignore its existence an do it anyways ? ? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works

nosferatu1001 wrote:

kambien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

But you still have the ability to reroll , you just can't meet the prerequisites , it is no different from requiring to roll a 1 to hit Which you say you get to ignore because " it doesn't matter how good a re-roll is"

No, you do not have the ability

If you were firing a bolter, you could not reroll ANY to hit roll, regardless of the result. So, no ability to reroll to hit. Proven. Again.

Did something take away the PE ability or make it invalid ? No it did not . BTW nothing was proven , you saying something was proven doesn't prove anything

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote:

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote: as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

So if you cannot fulfill a qualifier you get to ignore its existence an do it anyways ? ? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works

Nice straw man! Or, how about responding to the actual rules.

Which define bs6+ as granting the ability to reroll to hit.

So, 0 for 2.

I would love to respond to the actual rules however the person that made this assertion ( you ) did not provide rules in the first place so there is nothing for me to do. Its not a straw man , its YOUR actual argument on why you are re-rolling blasts with PE . I'm just pointing out that if you hand wave the need to roll a 1 to hit requirement

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote:because Blasts and Rerolls places NO qualifying criteria on "how good" your ability IS, just that yuou HAVE an ability.

, nothing stops anyone from hand wave the requirement to even fire at your PE race. If your going to assert PE grants re-rolls , you really need to be consistent with how your applying your rules

I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however.
The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here.

No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all.

Bs6+ you always have the ability.

Ability != quality.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however.
The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here.

No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all.

Bs6+ you always have the ability.

Ability != quality.

So your going to ignore the tenets of the forum then ?

Wow. How many times do we have to go through this? PE gives re-rolls of to hit rolls of 1. You can't roll a 1 on 2D6. In the rulebook the blast section covers re-rolls. Look it up. Geez.

 Kavish wrote:
Wow. How many times do we have to go through this? PE gives re-rolls of to hit rolls of 1. You can't roll a 1 on 2D6. In the rulebook the blast section covers re-rolls. Look it up. Geez.

BS6 gives re-rolls of to hit rolls of 1. Firing a twin-linked weapon when you are BS5 gives you re-rolls of to hit rolls of 1. You can't roll 1 on 2D6. If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit.

What was your point?

Hmm? We haven't even tried rerolling scatter with high BS. We have just been happy to reduce the scatter distance by an inch or two with Riptide.

I understand why you would argue this from a rules perspective and I believe you are right, we just don't play it that way. Funnily enough PE works differently to this, but we have been okay with always rerolling provided the circunstances are there (actual PE as target), but from the rules perspective it conflicts with the blast rules.

kambien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however.
The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here.

No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all.

Bs6+ you always have the ability.

Ability != quality.

So your going to ignore the tenets of the forum then ?

No, the arguments have been provided in many threads. If you have something new - and for the record, you DONT - then post it here. Or start a new thread.

However until then, the case is proven.Try a rules argument sometime, it may benefit you.

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.

I have backed up the argument. I referenced the rules in question.

If you have something constructive - a first, you usually just claim I never present rules, and slink away when proven wrong - please, do so. Or open up a new thread.

Until then, youre serving no purpose.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have backed up the argument. I referenced the rules in question.

You have done no such thing . This thread is only 3 pages long , its very easy to see you are lying.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, they get to reroll their scatter, because they have the ability to reroll to-hit
Blast weapons explicitly do not roll to hit. The rule stating such was given quitre a few times. It is impossible to state they do roll to hit given this rule.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I disagree. Against your non-PE, if you fired a non-blast, you would NOT have the ability to reroll your to-hit rolls. Thus, if you fire a blast instead you cannot be said to have the ability, and thus you may not reroll.A diference between having the ability, and meeting any criteria on roll to-hit result. Blasts cares about the former, and not a jot about the latter

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
OK, fair enough I'm jsut waiting for the next attempt to say blasts DO roll To Hit

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Well, Gets hots explicitly states that BS6+ grants the ability to reroll, and has the exact same prerequeisite (rolling a 1 to hit) . It is hard (but, not impossible as has been shown repeatedly) to dismiss identical wording about "ability"as having no relevance.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you admit it IS raw then? Glad to know you've simply been flouting the tenets, again, by failing to mark your posts "hiwpi" Glad that's settledYou really did walk head first into that trap. It's even one you've fallen for before.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Illumini - youre falling into the trap of even considering "how good" a reroll you need to have BEFORE you can reroll BlastsBlasts and rerolls is unqualified. It cares NOTHING about "how good" your reroll is; just that you HAVE the abiltiy.WIth PE at your PE you HAVE the ability. Indisputable by those not ignoring the written rules. And, as we know that Blasts NEVER roll To Hit, we KNOW that any condition on the To Hit roll cannot be important. THe anti-RAW side make Blasts and Rerolls only work with Twin linked and a couple other edge cases.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Well it must be a trap - because you can never roll To Hit, so any condition placed on how well you have hit must be ignored. If it isnt ignored - and luckily for us, it is! - you end up with the rule not having any functionFor some reason the sirlynch et al crowd like to hand wave away the difference between reroll to hit rolls, and reroll failed to hit rolls as unimportant, yet then conveniently whistle in the air when you talk about a twinlinked BS5+ model vs a BS5+ model with preferred enemy. They both "fail" on exactly the same number, yet for one they claim you DONT care about "how well" they failed, the other they do. Even though you never roll to hit, but that just gets glossed overITs an argument so shot through of every hole imaginable its a wonder they still bother arguing.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obviousEspecially as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:

kambien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

But you still have the ability to reroll , you just can't meet the prerequisites , it is no different from requiring to roll a 1 to hit Which you say you get to ignore because " it doesn't matter how good a re-roll is"

No, you do not have the abilityIf you were firing a bolter, you could not reroll ANY to hit roll, regardless of the result. So, no ability to reroll to hit. Proven. Again.

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote: as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

So if you cannot fulfill a qualifier you get to ignore its existence an do it anyways ? ? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works Nice straw man! Or, how about responding to the actual rules. Which define bs6+ as granting the ability to reroll to hit. So, 0 for 2.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however. The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here. No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all. Bs6+ you always have the ability. Ability != quality.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:

kambien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however. The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here. No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all. Bs6+ you always have the ability. Ability != quality.

So your going to ignore the tenets of the forum then ?

No, the arguments have been provided in many threads. If you have something new - and for the record, you DONT - then post it here. Or start a new thread. However until then, the case is proven.Try a rules argument sometime, it may benefit you.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have backed up the argument. I referenced the rules in question. If you have something constructive - a first, you usually just claim I never present rules, and slink away when proven wrong - please, do so. Or open up a new thread.Until then, youre serving no purpose.

No quote with page reference
Now that i have shown you are full of ork gak by quoting EVERY thing you posted just to prove your full of it , it only comes to 1 question.
Do you even have a rulebook ????????
You managed to "PROVE" things 5 times without quoting and referencing a single rule form the rule book. You have shown no rules , you hand waive others quoted and referenced rules all the time , you point to the tents of the forum and yet never follow them and the only reason it was tolerated for so long was that rigeld was white knighting for you and posting all the relevant rules , but that was well over a year ago they stopped posted it seems, so its been that long since any of your arguments have had any rules support.

Did I say "page reference" or "referenced"?

Are you aware of the difference? A page number is not required with the latter

Yes, I own a rulebook. I have given page referecnes and cites many times. I just do not feel that is required for THIS topic in THIS thread, because it has been stated so many times.

Instead of getting quite so worked up, if you have a problem here is a tip: use the triangle of friendship.

Are you really saying it has been ONE YEAR since I posted any rules support? WOuld yo ucare to retract that BALD FACED LIE or do I have to post links, AGAIN?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/686915/8577709.page#8577709

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684467/8542453.page#8542453

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684520/8541170.page#8541170

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/683855/8534005.page#8534005

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/683855/8534002.page#8534002

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/683855/8533970.page#8533970

Thats the last month. Oh, and look - a lot of them are from the last PE vs Blasts thread. Which I referenced above

Perhaps you should avoid your own confirmation bias.

ENOUGH. Next post that I judge to be directed at arguing about the other poster, rather than discussing the rules, gets that poster suspended.

RULE #1 - IT IS MANDATORY.

FINAL IN THREAD WARNING.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however.
The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here.

No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all.

Bs6+ you always have the ability.

Ability != quality.

^^^^
This is where you need to show the rules support.

You claim conditions don't matter, yet for PE you apply one and not the other. is PE an ability to reroll or not? If as you say it is, then why would the target matter?

BS6, you do not always have the ability, that is demonstrably wrong. It gives you a chance to gain the ability, and until you gain the ability you do not have it. Pg 33

What is required to be able to reroll blast weapons?. PG 158. The MODEL needs to have the ability. PE does not grant models the ability, nor can you gain the ability with BS6.

Gets Hot defines BS6+ as "the ability to reroll To Hit" - regardless of what page 33 states

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

When I read the above rule the word that seems to me to cause the issue is ability. When I read this rule I do not read the word ability as in an ability or a special rule. I read the word ability as in capability, or the ability to do something. If a model is capable of rerolling to hits it can reroll blasts.

In the case of preferred enemy if I have PE orks and shoot a bolter at the tau it doesn't mater what I roll I do not have the capability to reroll. That model does not have the ability to reroll to hit so if the same model were to shoot a blast at a poor ethereal I still could not reroll as it did not have the ability to do so.

Now if I shot at an ork unit I do have the capability to reroll the bolter so I'd be able to reroll a blast. I guess this depends on how you read the word ability, so this might just be hiwpi as I have no rules evidence to prove what definition of ability is used here but in that sense however you read it it just becomes RAI. It does seem clear to me though that it is intended to be read as capability. I never even stopped to think about it any other way until this thread

This, above

Gets Hot also uses "ability" but gives examples of what it considers such an ability - and includes BS6+ in that definition.

BS6+ "triggers" on the same roll as PE does. Claiming one is an ability (which you must do, to abide by the rules) while claiming the other isnt, is asinine.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This, above

Gets Hot also uses "ability" but gives examples of what it considers such an ability - and includes BS6+ in that definition.

BS6+ "triggers" on the same roll as PE does. Claiming one is an ability (which you must do, to abide by the rules) while claiming the other isnt, is asinine.

Now if only you could prove that PE grants a model the ability. Until you can do so, PE will not grant a reroll for blast weapons.

Keep waving that red herring, How does an ability that only lets you reroll the get's hot die, while ignoring the actual rules for BS6 proof of anything?

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This, above

Gets Hot also uses "ability" but gives examples of what it considers such an ability - and includes BS6+ in that definition.

BS6+ "triggers" on the same roll as PE does. Claiming one is an ability (which you must do, to abide by the rules) while claiming the other isnt, is asinine.

Now if only you could prove that PE grants a model the ability. Until you can do so, PE will not grant a reroll for blast weapons.

Keep waving that red herring, How does an ability that only lets you reroll the get's hot die, while ignoring the actual rules for BS6 proof of anything?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Is your argument that the wording of preferred enemy grants the ability to the unit not the model? And the wording of blasts and rerolls requires the model to have the ability because if that's your argument then my previous post addresses that too.

Preferred Enemy: This rule is often presented as Preferred Enemy (X) where X identifies a specific type of foe. If the special rule does not specify a type of foe, then everyone is a Preferred Enemy of the unit. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy. This applies both to shooting and close combat attacks.

This special rule gives models in the unit the capability to reroll to hit so using the situation I stated above, this would allow the model to reroll blasts.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Gets Hot defines BS6+ as "the ability to reroll To Hit" - regardless of what page 33 states

Rulebook, page 33 wrote:
Ballistic Skill of 6 or Better
If a model has BS 6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.

So it never had the re-roll in the first place

Zarroc1733 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This, above

Gets Hot also uses "ability" but gives examples of what it considers such an ability - and includes BS6+ in that definition.

BS6+ "triggers" on the same roll as PE does. Claiming one is an ability (which you must do, to abide by the rules) while claiming the other isnt, is asinine.

Now if only you could prove that PE grants a model the ability. Until you can do so, PE will not grant a reroll for blast weapons.

Keep waving that red herring, How does an ability that only lets you reroll the get's hot die, while ignoring the actual rules for BS6 proof of anything?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Is your argument that the wording of preferred enemy grants the ability to the unit not the model? And the wording of blasts and rerolls requires the model to have the ability because if that's your argument then my previous post addresses that too.

In short, yes.

Pg 156 unless specified otherwise a model does not have a special rule.

PE is a unit level ability, and does not give the models that ability, which is required for rerolling blasts.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Zarroc1733 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This, above

Gets Hot also uses "ability" but gives examples of what it considers such an ability - and includes BS6+ in that definition.

BS6+ "triggers" on the same roll as PE does. Claiming one is an ability (which you must do, to abide by the rules) while claiming the other isnt, is asinine.

Now if only you could prove that PE grants a model the ability. Until you can do so, PE will not grant a reroll for blast weapons.

Keep waving that red herring, How does an ability that only lets you reroll the get's hot die, while ignoring the actual rules for BS6 proof of anything?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Is your argument that the wording of preferred enemy grants the ability to the unit not the model? And the wording of blasts and rerolls requires the model to have the ability because if that's your argument then my previous post addresses that too.

In short, yes.

Pg 156 unless specified otherwise a model does not have a special rule.

PE is a unit level ability, and does not give the models that ability, which is required for rerolling blasts.

Unless you read ability as capability. But again without knowing what definition of ability is intended here we could keep going around so I'll take my exit here.

If a model (or unit) has PE they do not have the ability to re-roll until they roll a 1. Why is no one else talking about this? You cannot roll a 1 on 2D6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blast weapons require a roll of 2D6 in case you didn't know. (I'm starting to wonder.)

Everyone knows that. Good job that having the ability doesnt hinge on rolling a specific result

Blast weapons never roll To Hit. They never "miss" either, so they can never fail To Hit either.

However, the rule doesnt care how badly you rolled to hit. Just that you have the ability to reroll
Kambien - gets hot and rerolls. What does it give BS6+ as an example of?

 Kavish wrote:
If a model (or unit) has PE they do not have the ability to re-roll until they roll a 1. Why is no one else talking about this? You cannot roll a 1 on 2D6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blast weapons require a roll of 2D6 in case you didn't know. (I'm starting to wonder.)

And Chewies is still living on Endor.

Seriously, read the rules. You don't "roll to hit" with a blast weapon so therefore no "re-roll to hit" ability affects it, regardless of what you need to roll for it to happen.

So then we look at the rules for Blasts and Re-rolls and what do you know? They got this covered! If your model would have the ability to re-roll its to hit roll (which we are not rolling on 2D6 as blasts do not roll to hit) then you can re-roll the scatter dice.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
If a model (or unit) has PE they do not have the ability to re-roll until they roll a 1. Why is no one else talking about this? You cannot roll a 1 on 2D6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blast weapons require a roll of 2D6 in case you didn't know. (I'm starting to wonder.)

And Chewies is still living on Endor.

Seriously, read the rules. You don't "roll to hit" with a blast weapon so therefore no "re-roll to hit" ability affects it, regardless of what you need to roll for it to happen.

So then we look at the rules for Blasts and Re-rolls and what do you know? They got this covered! If your model would have the ability to re-roll its to hit roll (which we are not rolling on 2D6 as blasts do not roll to hit) then you can re-roll the scatter dice.

Now if only you could show where PE grants the model the ability, you'd have a point.

So, have we circled enough this time around?

Time to move on, I think.