Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In a previous thread in this subforum, there was a debate about whether PE confers the ability to reroll the scatter dice for a blast template.

This argument ultimately involved me arguing that blast weapons roll, in some sense, to hit.

My question:

P. 185 of the space marines codex (the rules for the suppression force) explicitly gives the whirlwinds in that formation the ability to reroll TO HIT when firing their whirlwind multiple missile launchers.

All of the whirlwind missile launchers fire large blasts.

My question: RAW, if blast weapons do not roll to Hit, does this mean that the suppression force formation actually provides no advantage whatsoever?

The same thing happens to the special Imperial Guard Tank Commander - Pask, he gets a special ability depending on the choice of main gun.

When firing a battle cannon, vanquisher battle cannon, demolisher siege cannon or eradicator nova cannon, Pask can re-roll To Hit rolls.

The people writing the Codexes certainly seem to think that re-rolling to hit rolls works with blasts.

I believe you would get to re-roll to hit with a blast if it had twin linked. Why not if it just states you get a flat out re-roll?

 bomtek80 wrote:
I believe you would get to re-roll to hit with a blast if it had twin linked. Why not if it just states you get a flat out re-roll?

Twin-linked actually addresses Blast Rerolls, if I remember correctly.

 Charistoph wrote:

 bomtek80 wrote:
I believe you would get to re-roll to hit with a blast if it had twin linked. Why not if it just states you get a flat out re-roll?

Twin-linked actually addresses Blast Rerolls, if I remember correctly.

So, what do you say, Charistoph. Do whirlwinds get to reroll their TO HIT roll or not?

Yes, they get to reroll their scatter, because they have the ability to reroll to-hit

Blast weapons explicitly do not roll to hit. The rule stating such was given quitre a few times. It is impossible to state they do roll to hit given this rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, they get to reroll their scatter, because they have the ability to reroll to-hit

Blast weapons explicitly do not roll to hit. The rule stating such was given quitre a few times. It is impossible to state they do roll to hit given this rule.

How can they reroll to Hit if they don't roll to Hit?

Maybe the supression force was intended to confer no benefits.

Blast and Rerolls doesn't care about rolling to hit, it cares if you have the ability to rerolling to hit.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Blast and Rerolls doesn't care about rolling to hit, it cares if you have the ability to rerolling to hit.

#facepalm

I quote the rule: "...all shooting attacks made with Whirlwind multiple missile launchers by models in this Formation against the nominated can re-roll To Hit..."

Therefore, they roll to hit.

That's a tautology.

Traditio wrote:
How can they reroll to Hit if they don't roll to Hit?

Maybe the supression force was intended to confer no benefits.

They don't roll To Hit as much as they roll to see What they hit (hence the Scatter Dice), which if you think about it is essentially the same thing. I can't find a rule that specifically states that To Hit rolls when talking about a Blast Weapon refers to the Scatter Dice, but given the aforementioned definition, I don't think it's beyond the bounds of "Rules As Intended" to think of it that way.

So this really is a case of interpretation and Rules As Intended (unless someone can find a rule that supports one way or the other), meaning that I would play PE as allowing people to re-roll the Scatter Dice, but you'd have to re-roll the 2D6 as well. Plus as you said: If To Hit doesn't refer to the Scatter Dice for Blast Weapons, then the Suppression Force is near useless, if not completely useless haha.

P.S. As far as the Twin-Linked thing, that refers specifically to the Scatter Dice rather than saying "To Hit".

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Blast and Rerolls doesn't care about rolling to hit, it cares if you have the ability to rerolling to hit.

#facepalm

I quote the rule: "...all shooting attacks made with Whirlwind multiple missile launchers by models in this Formation against the nominated can re-roll To Hit..."

Therefore, they roll to hit.

That's a tautology.

The blasts rules specifically say they do not roll to hit.

CrownAxe wrote:The blasts rules specifically say they do not roll to hit.

And the rule I just quoted says they do.

Your move, CA.

CrownAxe wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Blast and Rerolls doesn't care about rolling to hit, it cares if you have the ability to rerolling to hit.

#facepalm

I quote the rule: "...all shooting attacks made with Whirlwind multiple missile launchers by models in this Formation against the nominated can re-roll To Hit..."

Therefore, they roll to hit.

That's a tautology.

The blasts rules specifically say they do not roll to hit.

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:The blasts rules specifically say they do not roll to hit.

And the rule I just quoted says they do.

Your move, CA.

Let's not escalate this, guys.

May I direct you both to my previous post on this thread? Without trying to toot my own horn, I think I covered it pretty well.

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:The blasts rules specifically say they do not roll to hit.

And the rule I just quoted says they do.

Your move, CA.

What;s your point? Weren't you the one saying that PE wouldn't let you reroll scatter and now you have proof that it does?

Why are you calling me California?

IllumiNini wrote:May I direct you both to my previous post on this thread? Without trying to toot my own horn, I think I covered it pretty well.

Your posting basically sums up my thoughts on the matter.

That said, I want to make a stronger claim:

Either:

Our view actually has the support of RAW (the Datalink Telemetry rule I cited explicitly says that blast weapons (vis-a-vis whirlwind multiple missile launchers) roll to hit)

or

The datalink Telemetry rules do absolutely nothing and are complete nonsense.

I suppose when you are rolling Scatter, you are rolling to hit. Hence why there is a Hit on the die.

CrownAxe wrote:What;s your point? Weren't you the one saying that PE wouldn't let you reroll scatter and now you have proof that it does?

Quite the opposite!

Blast weapons roll to hit (pretty much explicitly stated on p. 185 of the SM codex).

PE allows rerolls of 1s to hit.

Blast weapons cannot roll 1s to hit.

Therefore, etc.

Why are you calling me California?

Because I just lit a wildfire to your interpretation of the rules, dawg!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I suppose when you are rolling Scatter, you are rolling to hit. Hence why there is a Hit on the die.

My. Very. Argument.

CrownAxe wrote:Why are you calling me California?

Best response I've read in a while haha.

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:May I direct you both to my previous post on this thread? Without trying to toot my own horn, I think I covered it pretty well.

Your posting basically sums up my thoughts on the matter.

That said, I want to make a stronger claim:

Either:

Our view actually has the support of RAW (the Datalink Telemetry rule I cited explicitly says that blast weapons (vis-a-vis whirlwind multiple missile launchers) roll to hit)

or

The datalink Telemetry rules do absolutely nothing and are complete nonsense.

I think our view is the correct one, but there's simply a lack of clarity on GW's end. I might trawl through some FAQs to see if I can find anything.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I suppose when you are rolling Scatter, you are rolling to hit. Hence why there is a Hit on the die.

Maybe an over-simplification and a little bit of a stretch, but the logic is there and the result is the same haha


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

Why are you calling me California?

Because I just lit a wildfire to your interpretation of the rules, dawg!

Oh wow.. haha

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:What;s your point? Weren't you the one saying that PE wouldn't let you reroll scatter and now you have proof that it does?

Quite the opposite!

Blast weapons roll to hit (pretty much explicitly stated on p. 185 of the SM codex).

PE allows rerolls of 1s to hit.

Blast weapons cannot roll 1s to hit.

Therefore, etc.

Why are you calling me California?

Because I just lit a wildfire to your interpretation of the rules, dawg!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I suppose when you are rolling Scatter, you are rolling to hit. Hence why there is a Hit on the die.

My. Very. Argument.

Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

That simple.

CrownAxe wrote:Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

That simple.

Therefore Datalink Telemetry is complete nonsense as a rule.

Congrats!

 CrownAxe wrote:
Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

That simple.

I don't think that's ever been up for argument per se, but what we're trying to say is that for rules such as Datalink Telemetry and the Special Rule for the Suppression Force which make reference to rolling To Hit with regards to Blast Weapons, is there another rule that connects to two? Or is it "There is no rule connecting them, but players connect the dots to make these rules work."?

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

That simple.

Therefore Datalink Telemetry is complete nonsense as a rule.

Congrats!

No, datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter.

Also i'm pretty sure Whirlwinds can buy non-blast weapons such as hunter-killer missiles and pintle mounted stormbolters

IllumiNini wrote:I don't think that's ever been up for argument per se, but what we're trying to say is that for rules such as Datalink Telemetry and the Special Rule for the Suppression Force which make reference to rolling To Hit with regards to Blast Weapons, is there another rule that connects to two? Or is it "There is no rule connecting them, but players connect the dots to make these rules work."?

Basically, my interpretation is this:

The rule that says that blast weapons don't roll to Hit means this:

They don't roll to Hit dice. They don't compare a 1d6 roll to 7 - [BS of the firing model].

Their to Hit roll is a placement of the blast template and a rolling of the scatter dice.

That's why there is a HIT result on 2 out of 6 facings on the scatter die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrownAxe wrote:No, datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter.

Also i'm pretty sure Whirlwinds can buy non-blast weapons such as hunter-killer missiles and pintle mounted stormbolters

I'll quote the rule again: "...all shooting attacks MADE WITH WHIRLWIND MULTIPLE MISSILE LAUNCHERS by models in this formation against the nominated can RE-ROLL TO HIT..."

It doesn't confer an ability to re-roll to hit with non-blast weapons. It confers an ability to re-roll TO HIT made by a weapon that can ONLY fire a blast weapon.

Therefore, blast weapons roll to Hit.

QED.

Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

Datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter. Therefore it still is a functional rule

QED

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:I don't think that's ever been up for argument per se, but what we're trying to say is that for rules such as Datalink Telemetry and the Special Rule for the Suppression Force which make reference to rolling To Hit with regards to Blast Weapons, is there another rule that connects to two? Or is it "There is no rule connecting them, but players connect the dots to make these rules work."?

Basically, my interpretation is this:

The rule that says that blast weapons don't roll to Hit means this:

They don't roll to Hit dice. They don't compare a 1d6 roll to 7 - [BS of the firing model].

Their to Hit roll is a placement of the blast template and a rolling of the scatter dice.

That's why there is a HIT result on 2 out of 6 facings on the scatter die.

Don't worry, mate. We're in agreement on this.

CrownAxe wrote:

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

That simple.

Therefore Datalink Telemetry is complete nonsense as a rule.

Congrats!

No, datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter.

Also i'm pretty sure Whirlwinds can buy non-blast weapons such as hunter-killer missiles and pintle mounted stormbolters

Where is this "Blast and Re-rolls" rule?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

Datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter. Therefore it still is a functional rule

QED

Please explain to me how a weapon that cannot roll to hit can or should specifically be explicitly granted the ability to reroll to hit.

I'll be waiting with bated breath. [/sarcasm]

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Rulebook says blasts don't roll to hit. Your formation doesn't specifically change that rule. Therefore blasts still don't roll to hit.

Datalink Telemetry can use the rule "Blast and Rerolls" to let its blasts reroll scatter. Therefore it still is a functional rule

QED

Please explain to me how a weapon that cannot roll to hit can or should specifically be explicitly granted the ability to reroll to hit.

I'll be waiting with bated breath. [/sarcasm]

"Blast and Rerolls" doesn't care if you trigger the reroll, just that you have an ability to do so. Having the rule means you have the ability to do so


@IllumiNini - Pg 158, In the Blast rules

 CrownAxe wrote:
@IllumiNini - Pg 158, In the Blast rules

Derpa-Derp-Derp on my part. Completely glazed over it. In that case, that rule answers the question 100% perfectly.

CrownAxe wrote:"Blast and Rerolls" doesn't care if you trigger the reroll, just that you have an ability to do so. Having the rule means you have the ability to do so

The rule SPECIFICALLY says that a particular blast weapon can reroll to Hit.

What you are saying is that the GW design members had essentially the following train of thought/conversation with each other:

"So uh...blast weapons can't roll to hit. But the blast rules say that a model with the ability to reroll to hit can reroll the scatter dice, even though they don't reroll to hit. Hey, here's a SPECIFIC FETHING BLAST WEAPON. Let's confer it the ability to reroll to hit. Oh, sure, it can't roll to hit in the first place. But let's grant it the ABILITY to do so (even though it can never actually use it) so that it can take advantage of this very strange rule in the BRB."

But you must pardon me if I fail to keep a straight face.

How is it weird to design a rule with existing rules of the game in mind?

How is "Blasts and Rerolls" a very strange rule?